lazarette repairs

[Robin]

Hi guys,
I have some new questions on some of the lazarette repairs suggested in the manual. I've dug out the old foam in the compartments on either side of the outboard well. (It was ompletely water logged) I assumed urethane foam would be a straightforward item to find-but it's not. What is it, who makes it and where do you get it? And what form does it come in?
I found one person that came up with something that you mix 1:1 that was for flotation, is that it?
Also, what adhesive would you use to attach the weather stripping?
The varnishing is finally starting to proceed--the small matter of moving myself and Mischief back to New York sort of interfered.
Robin

[S.Airing]

Home Depo sells extruded polystyrene in various thickness and sizes,if thats what you need .Foam will absord water extruded polystyrene does not.

[Mike Goodwin]

You can get closed cell pourable flotation foam from FGCI in Clearwater Fla. I order from them all the time.

www.fgci.com

They have 2.0 lb , 4.0lb & 8.0 lb. 2lb is the most bouyant per cubic ft. 8lb is the stiffest .
2 gal of 2lb makes 8 cu. ft.
2 gal of 4lb makes 4cu ft.
2 gal of 8lb makes 2 cu ft.
The closed cell foam wont absorb water if it is polyurethane and closed cell.

2 gal cost $48 for 2 lb
2 qt cost $19

4 & 8lb are slightly higher.

I have used this product and can vouch for it .

[Theis]

Another idea. I put an innertube in each section and inflated it rather than foam. The benefit/reasoning is that, although it does not keep those sections completely dry, it does exclude a large amount of the water. The main feature is that I can easily remove the innertub for cleaning/whatever (such as replacing the blocks under the access ports when they rot out).

[commanderpete]

Just did this project. Two quarts of the 2 lb. pourable foam was more than enough. Mike gave you a good lead. Most marine stores charge about $70.00 for two quarts.

This stuff is pretty hilarious to work with. Like a science project.

Afterwards, I would glass over any access holes you cut to dig out the old styrofoam. I don't see the need for an inspection port.

I think water gets in through the drain tube. A little foam come out there when I did this. I'm going to smear the sides of the tube with epoxy using a cheap artist paintbrush.

I'll be installing the weatherstripping soon. Haven't figured out what adhesive to use. I was planning on 3M 4200, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Theis]

Now I remember what I didn't like about the foam routine. I am not a chemist but let me express my concerns.

The outboard motor is a potential source of a fire. Likely located with the motor is one (or two) gas can. Although not on the Ariel, I have had an outboard catch fire, and in a second case found the outboard spewing gas vapor throughout the motor housing. Fire is not unforeseeable. The OMC Ficht engines made shortly before OMC bit the dust were notorious for catching on fire (according to Boat US, as I recall).

My concern about foam is that a) it could become contaminated with gas, or act as a wick for gas or gas vapors, and b) my recollection is that this stuff not only burns, but gives off super toxic gases, such as phosgene and cynanide when it heats up, and c) it either burns or decomposes at relatively low temperatures. If this is true about these gases, I wouldn't even be able to get to open the engine compartment to use a fire extinguisher without being killed or knocked out.

Perhaps someone else can provide some further insight, but I didn't want to take a chance. Fire is one of my greatest single concerns. This may be a bogus concern, or it may be very real.

[ebb]

When the OB well lazarette of 338 was being disassembled, we cut out the 1/4" frp covered plywood and found it sopping wet, the foam was sopping wet and when we scraped out the foam which certainly seemed well adhered to the cavities we found puddles of liquid down in the corners. The foam seemed to be a tan colored two=part polyurethane (ie closed cell). The liquid tasted of salt water. While the process of tearing it smelled of funkey plastic - it never smelled of gas. Wonder why???

[Bill]

It probably did not smell of gasoline because none leaked into the cavity. #76 sustained stern damage (a 50 power boat backed into it at the dock, but that is another story). When I removed the foam three years ago, it smelled of leaded gasoline (not sold in Calif for about the previous ten years). I replaced the foam with the new stuff and painted. If poison gas from fire is a worry, cover the foam again with plywood. If you do get a good fire going, the fiberglass is likely to burn like crazy anyway.

[ebb]

...here comes a logical answer. Do the repair - fill it with foam or whatever blows yer cavity - soak it real good in salt water - and seal it. Water being heavier than gas, the gas won't get in.
Then again, why fill it and level it when you can just leave it and drill some holes thru for drainage. Just saw a little islander that kept it simple like that.

[Theis]

While down at the yard tonight I spoke to a person who works with closed cell foam isocynates (polyurethane, for example).The stuff burns "like paper" but more likely at least as easily as petroleum. It does not explode like fuel. The problem is that the least little burning (which you may not see) creates enough cyanide gas to be almost instantly lethal. He got a quick whiff of some accidentally while opening an oven at work, and his lungs collapsed. He survived, but he was totally disabled for a short period. Do your own research, but if you have isocyanates, and you get even a small blaze, don't open the hatch but jump overboard, unless what I have been told is wrong. My judgment is there is a real safety issue putting foam in an outboard engine well. I'd be interested in any comments to the contrary or whether polystyrene is any different.

[Bill]

In my experience, the amount of water getting into the locker while the engine is running prevents any thought of a fire. After things are put away, the plug replaced and the lazarette dries out, at that point I suppose there could be a fire.

Has anyone out there experienced a gasoline (or otherwise) fire in the lazarette?

[Bill]

BTW - a number of years ago, we discussed the foam issue with Bill Shaw. He said it was used in the lazarette to prevent gasoline fumes from collecting in the hollow space under the lazarette sole to prevent the possibility of an explosion. That's a good reason for not leaving the area a void and for keeping the lazarette isolated from the rest of the boat's interior.

[ebb]

From this discussion here I'm going to reconsider putting foam back in the cavities. How about a grating of some sort to get it level with two small scuppers in the corners? Removable grating.

We're slowly making an attempt to clear this compartment of all but the essential plywood motor-mount and the well. It looks like a hole was cut in the bustle and the prefab well glassed in as a unit. We've chiseled out the filler at the bottom of the transom, and because the motor mount is chewed up and untrustworthy looking, we may soon be attacking the filler on the forward part of the well on the bulkhead where the original scupper is... to see what the plywood looks like. Want to make the mount thicker, maybe go athwartship with it May have to move it and/or bring it up for the new Yamaha 4stroke 8 that's going to live there.

The glassed in plywood deck around the well effectively supported and stiffened the whole area so it's not removable perse if you're going to run an ob. I would think the foam was also originally thought of as structural.

[Mike Goodwin]

Was there a deck port & STBD of the motor well?
I only have one on the port side and looks like no foam under it at all .
Did not know Yamaha was making a 4 stroke 8hp , I thought all mfg were jumping from 6 to 9.8 .
I'm going with the Nissan 6hp 4stroke longshaft, only 55lbs ,the 9's are all over 120lbs and my wife can't pull it from the well or up out of the cabin to put in the well , so we went shopping with rule " she had to be able to pick up motor and carry 20' without stopping ".
Those of you using a 4 stroke , where and how are you stowing it out of the well ?
I know with a 2 stroke you can lay it down any way, but with a 4 you have to keep the head elevated or oil runs into the head and locks up the motor .

[ebb]

'Lo again Mike. 2 little deckies canted toward the center... I thought: nice design, over all, under all the snot.

The Yamaha 8 I went for is 109#, electric start / electric tilt / heavy duty alternator for the battery. Got Yamaha on reputation alone (worldwide parts, reliability, etc.) - don't know nuttin bout ob's. But I will, I will. It's Gorgeous! But it so designed that there is no easy way to rig a bridle for lifting by the Garhauer doodiwhapsis I haven't thought about yet.

ELECTRIC TILT? Oh Nooooo, what's he gonna do? Gasp. Like I say, it will live in the well.

for the record here, I see my appelation has been changed:
I am a professional woodworker acting as a general manager of a small Sonoma CA estate which produces organic merlot and manzanillo olive oil. It sucks a lot of my time and energy. But I am an amateur boat builder (gave away a wood gaff rigged english style reeving bowsprit cutter to get to the Ariel whose underbody makes me creem in my jeans) I dream incessantly of the So Pacific, if it's still there..............................