The Daysailor Craze

[ebb]

Absolutely gorgeous!
That jaguar-green hull tre-chic
The oval ports seem to give the Commander a smile.
And the bit of trim the elegance of a foxy lady's penciled eyebrows.

Maybe, maybe if she had been presented like this
there might have been 6091 Commanders made!
How about a REPRISE?
She looks like a million dollars!
If produced again she would become big sister to the New Ensign ($30.000. www.ensignspars.com)


I hope she kept the name CHEBEAQUE.
Which for this non-local
has a commanding tone
and does sound like a great name for a boat.

[Frenna]

Glad you like the revised design. Now to do it. I love the Commanders hull and shear, and the large cockpit makes it a great family and friends daysailor (daysailER)? My only real gripes are the ports, short grab rail, and the cabin top roof angles seem a bit off, but the eyebrow fixes that. I might add that the extreme rake at the front end of the coaming boards seems like it could be improved too. A flaw that the Alerion seems to have adopted.

The ports are the biggest issue. To my eye they are too thin, too low, and not attractively shaped. Looks like the back door on an armored car.

So, if/when I do get around to the mod, I seem to recall that C231's port frames were in decent shape. If anyone wants to get in the que for them, I would be willing let them go for the cost of shipping to someone who will make good use of them. Note, however, that I do not even own the boat yet, so this is in the late winter/early spring time frame.

[ebb]

Rather like makeup
the Commander's sheer is an illusion.
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I'll add a spin to C'Pete's next post here - so as not to bump him off.
Yes finding TRUE elliptical ports seems impossible. Bomar has a bunch but they all seem to have tight corners, squinty.

GGSchmitt & Sons have a nice, not quite as squinty, opening port in stainless and smoked acrylic* (4 1/2 X 14 1/2) for $163. It's still a modern look.
I'd make black cardboard cutouts of the shape, tack it to the cabin, and stand back.

Looking at the portlights in the Express Commander above again, they are a modern pattern, being somewhat sharp cornered. But they don't look bad at all, do they? Actually they look custom to the boat! Maybe they're the Schmitts! They give the Commander an even more timeless look.

TaylorMadeSystems has Sea Vue Portlights in aluminum that are very rounded with nice proportions - but still elliptical. Interesting numbers: Portlight opening: 3 3/4" X 12 3/4" --- Hole cut-out: 6 3/4" X 15 3/4" --- OD of finishing ring: 7 3/4" X 16 1/2"
__________________________________________________ ______________________
*The Schmitt's may be too long: 4 1/2 X 14 1/4 - 5 3/4 X 16 - 7 3/4 X 18.
that is: taking the curve of the cabin into account.

[commanderpete]

Good ideas.

Finding the right shape ports might be the difficult, and expensive, part. Then the fiberglass work to make them fit.

I was also thinking of getting longer handrails. New 4 or 5 loop teak handrails are actually pretty cheap. Problem is, the loops on the original handrails aren't evenly spaced, the new ones all are. You would have to make your own handrails to keep the same spacing and cover the ugly deck underneath the handrail bases.

Eyebrows could be nice. Teak half-round lengths are also pretty cheap. You might want to make and varnish two sets at once. It's the same amount of work. If one set eventually gets ratty looking you can just change them out.

[Frenna]

Since I am planning to refinish the entire exterior, dealing with holes and modifying port locations is an option. That said, I think it may be possible to make the ovals work as an overlap of the existing holes.

I was thinking they would be non-operable, just like the original. I have seen some nice ones that were simply bronze perimeter frames, could be cut from sheet and rounded over on the edges. I bet it could be done with a speed controlled router or milling equipment. It is critical to be able to size and shape them just so. Well proportioned ports should diminish in size moving toward the front of the boat.

I have also noticed that on some of these neo-traditional daysailers, there is no port frame, the glass (or plastic) is recessed slightly, and there is a bead of what looks like teak deck compound flush with the glass. The glass is heavily tinted, so it is not noticeable. I imagine the interior is trimmed with wood, plastic, or metal, but that is not critical.

I must say, that I am really intrigued by your mention of making the eyebrow removable. Come to think of it, it would be really nice if ALL the exterior wood were made to be easily removable so that it could be taken in to the shop for varnish maintenance during the off season. That would avoid the insane masking and prepping at the dock, the lost sailing time, (good varnish weather is good sailing weather), and generally make it easier to keep things looking good.

The fact that there is not too much wood on these is helpful. Anyone who has ever owned a Cheoy Lee, as I have, knows all about it. Love the wood, hate the wood. That goes tripple for spars.

The grab rails are in the category of stuff that is easy to make as needed in the shop. On the Cheoy Lees I have owned they were triangular in cross section, such that the base was about 1/3 wider than the rail part, which give it a nice solid feel laterally. Seems like the Pearson ones are just milled out of a fairly thin board. Strong enough I imagine, but not as satisfying.

Anyway, I will be thinking about ways to detach some of the teak without having to drill out bungs etc.

[commanderpete]

Ahhhhh...another craftsman here. Anything is possible for you guys.

I was hoping to find some ports with a larger cutout, to make the job easier.

I'm not too unhappy with the existing ports, since they don't leak. But they are cloudy, and I can't seem to polish them clear. Replacing the glass would still be a project, even if I didn't break the frames in the process.

I believe the outside measurements for the ports are 17 3/4" x 5 1/4", with a 7/8" frame.

Here's those links from ebb (Thanks ebb)

http://www.ggschmitt.com/

http://www.taylormarine.com/portlights/seavue.html

We might be getting close

[bill@ariel231]

i'm still a fan of the original portlight frames. Ensign Spars has new frames available in Aluminum (same as the Electra Part):

http://www.ensignspars.com/parts

LARGE ELECTRA PORTHOLE 2PC PER SET/ANODIZED INCLUDES PLEXI
$99.00

that is a whole lot less than it cost me to cast new bronze frames for A-231.

[ebb]

Frenna,
I've axed perfectly good restored and powder-coated frames on the Ariel in favor of thru-bolting 3/8" polycarbonate sheet over the holes on the outside. Believe this is virtually bulletproof for the Ariel's large openings. It's certainly NOT Alerion.

I think the current love affair with daysailers harkens back to better economic days of bronze fittings, single malt scotch and white shirts. Don't know that slab-on fixed portlights is the alerion you want. Wouldn't it be more cool to find and fit opening eliptical ports? Certainly more impressive.
But, mounting the plastic on the inside with nicely prepared cutouts could be done. You'd have a ring/bling of carefully placed fastenings around the light on the cabinside.

As I understand Commanders don't have a cabin liner, right? Imco that makes installing upgrade portlights a piece of cake. Except for the curve of the cabin side - but it could probably be dealt with by glassing in a flat mounting surface when prepping and sizing the holes. Can imagine a jig made out of polyethylene sheet (which epoxy doesn't stick to) to mold dead flat mounting frames in the curved plane of the cabinside.. With the finishing rim and some filleting, fairing and paint only a pro will know what you have accomplished.



Can also see more substantail custom rails as easy to do, especially in a shop. The cut-outs can be done with a hardboard pattern and the router after cutting out the openings with the jigsaw,. Could even add a bit of a return to the 'feet' for a sturdier and elegant footprint. Then tablesaw the taper on both sides (or just one side.) Then round over all edges. A small prob with the tapered surfaces, but with a little hand sanding....
Assuming you're going with teak or mahogany and not something like IPE.

Could waste some wood and bandsaw a mild curve into the rail out of wider stock to match the cabin. Obviously because you won't be able to bend a thicker rail. The rail keeps passengers and feet secure - and the sturdier the better.


We had a discussion once here about making the mahogany coamings removable fror ease of maintenance. On the Ariel anyway oversize screws are used to hold the coaming into the curve of the cockpit. It's not much of a bend but the screws have a lot of work to do. They screw into encapsulated mahogany backing 'cleats'. There is a problem with that in that you can't remove the boards too many times without loosing grip in the cleats. And if you move the screws, what do you do with the old monster chamfered holes???

I'd be considering brass or stainless (304) threaded inserts. They'd be PITA to install with a sprung in place coaming..... but could be done.
It would be interesting to try the insert system with the cabin rails. You could hold the rail on with machine screws that screw into overhead cleats inside. Probably get by with 3/4" stuff. I found 1/2" long s.s. inserts that have a thread-lok already applied IN the wood threads. They come in common machine screw thread sizes up to 3/8".
Could be reversed with the threaded inserts put in the base of the rail, and the machine screws screwed up from the inside thru the cabin roof.
Guess this could be called the 'short' method, since the screws would be substantially shorter - and the string of holes easier to line up.
I'd use butyl for bedding - or even old fashioned bedding compound. Probably cove out the bottom of the feet a bit to hold in the bedding around the screw holes in the deck.

Using threaded inserts would allow infinite removal of the rails. Maybe the coamings too. Nice bright shiney stainless screw heads are accepatble on the coamings - why not the top of the rails?

How you gonna do it?

[commanderpete]

Before this thread goes too long without a picture, wrap your head around this one

[John]

Did you wrap your head before standing on it for the picture?

[ebb]

One of the mirror images is obviously a wooden version of the other!
Great photo!

But the pulpit of the wooden boat has sustained damage, and there is something ghostly about her large empty ports!

Brings to mind the mystery of the Mary Celeste supposedly discovered sailing without a soul on board by an identical two-masted brig exactly 137 years ago: Nov 24th 1872.
Her captain's name is Benjamin Briggs, her cargo 1700 barrels of raw alcohol destined for spiking Italian wine.
The Dei Gratia** said to have found the abandoned ship, put two gutsy guys aboard who sailed her 600 miles into Gibraltar for salvage..... but.....

Nicely told video on YouTube
Ghost Ship - Mary Celeste*

Of course NOT intimating that the other Commander in C'pete's photo is doomed or somehow connected with the Celeste in any way.
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*There is imco another flawed version of the story on YouTube called 'The Marie Celeste Ghost Ship. Good maybe for comparison.
**But a more complete picture fleshed out with timelines and names is to be found on Wikipedia. Where it turns out that Capt. Morehouse of the Dei Gratia was a buddy of Briggs!
How 'bout that? Can't recall any synopsis mentioning THAT.

[commanderpete]

I get some ghostly images when my hands are real shaky

[Rico]

Here is a neat little daysailor:

www.norseboat.com



BERTHS 6ft 8in x 6ft (fwd); 6ft x 2ft (aft)

LOA 21ft 8in // LWL 19ft 7in // BEAM 7ft 1in

DRAFT 1ft 6in (board up); 4ft 4in (board down)

DISPLACEMENT 1,280lb (light ship)

BALLAST 275lb //CAPACITY 2,458lb

SAIL AREA 197ft2 (main and jib)
Note the traditional Gaff Rig using not so traditional carbon fiber spars...

DESIGNERS Kevin Jeffrey/Mark Fitzgerald

BUILDER NorseBoat Limited, Prince Edward Island, Canada, 902-659-2790, norseboat.com.

PRICE $37,490 (base, including trailer)

Ballast Ratio: 21

Sail Area-Displacement Ratio: 26

Displacement-Length Ratio: 115

Performance: 5 (5 What???)

They seem to be capable little ships:
TWO NORSEBOATS GO THROUGH NW PASSAGE IN 2010!

The two man team of Kev Oliver and Tony Lancashire returned to Gjoa Haven in the Canadian arctic mid August 2010. They completed their expedition through the NW Passage, ending in the settlement of Resolute (see details below). Another NorseBoat 17.5 went through the arctic this season, this one on the deck of an expedition motor yacht that left Lunenburg, Nova Scotia harbour July 2 heading east to west through the NW Passage.


Little video of it under sail:

http://youtu.be/b8cSgyAgcFY

One last pic:

[ebb]

Mast weighs 19lbs!!!

Carbon firber?

Maybe it'll rattle Frank Durant's chain??

[Ed Ekers]

here is a link to some great looking yachts to dream about http://www.persept.se/photo/Skerrymania/ ....ed