Tenders

[ebb]

http://www.seahopper.co.uk/K2_2006.htm

Stowaway in the UK has developed a fiberglass version of their famous wood erectorset dinghy. This one looks simpler, just as shippy, and obviously tougher than the plywood ones - and since carrying a shell tender on an Ariel is pretty impossible this collapsable kind of thing has to be taken seriously. Can't imagine going offshore with an awkward and rather dangerous lump on the fore deck. Even a nester.

I'm sure the price is too high. But assume it has to be cheaper than the wood ones. If one could afford it tho, the sailing version seems ideal. The text suggests they may stop production of the wood and concentrate solely on the glass. Their sales will soar!


I'd be interested in why you and I would or would not go for something like this take apart? O pine opinions?
Aside from the price and the hot-in-the-sun dark blue color of the panels!


They may still make that 6' smidgen version that you stowaway under your setee cushion. This K2 tho is a respectable 10 feet long and infinitely better looking than a folding purtobote. Rig it to the cabin side?
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________

Well, calculating the 40 kg weight for the hull alone - that's over 88#, plus the spars and such - and that's too much. They're going to have to develop a smaller and lighter one befor I'd really be interested. What are they, nuts? The challenge is to go lighter, NOT heavier! Plastic and glass is heavy stuff. And it has to be thick to make it stiff. Hey Mike, where you get a deal on carbon fiber?
(Thinking someone should come up with a thin (3/16") composite panel of wood and some plastic like kevlar or oriented strands. The kevlar or carbon micro-threads might be laid in the glue lines to make a technical marine super-ply like maranti.) Believe a folding pram is the only way to go for a cruising A/C.

BUT,
for dreamers like me, it's not impossible to imagine a custom shell dinghy on the Ariel cabintop under the boom extending over the companionway with a removable stern piece. Under 50#! Probably couldn't have the vang. It would look kinda weird - but the shell would serve two purposes. Hot dinghy dodger!

[mbd]

The Nov-Dec issue of GOB has a nice write-up/review on a folding dinghy. Also some other very good articles: one on the Triton Ariadne currently residing in N. Carolina which made its way from CA by way of the Panama canal. But the owner has done some interesting and functional cruising mods, another on an Allegra (if I remember correctly), a 24 foot version of the Flicka. Deifinetly worth a read.

[ebb]

Mike, There was for a while a 24' Allegra for sale. I have pictures of it on my kitchen cork wall. Man, I really like what they've done - the interior turns all my toggles on.

As for a dinghy, and the plethora of ideas and materials we can borrow and use - it may be that a CABINTOP PRAM is the way to go for an Ariel cruiser. The fold boat is great minimalist stuff. It still has to be assembled - and disassembled. Where? Maybe on cushions - to protect coamings - across the cockpit.

The idea, tho, of unlashing some lines, undoing some hooks, and evah so nicely lifting - with the boom - the dink into the drink...
almost seems like it's been done already. Can SEE it, right?
As a tender the shell would be short and wide and odd looking, but I bet it's do-able. Short wide and flat mean weight carrying ability - only problem is seeing forward when it's mounted on the cabin.....! There are plenty of plans available for ideas. I've already AXED 338's hard dodger idea (too heavy), so I may be looking into this myself.

I sub to GOB so there's a copy here some place.

[mbd]

I can get more details for you tonight when I get home - but this fellow has had his folding dinghy for 20 years or so - I think it was made in the UK. (Good grief - I'm too young to have such a bad memory! Damn those misspent years of my youth...)

Or, if you can get your hands on a copy of the GOB - this one's a particularly good issue...

[mbd]

Googling them came up with some interesting websites:

http://directory.boatdesign.net/detail/957.htm
From this page: "Boats Folding Dinghy and Rob Humphreys innovative high performance sportboat kits."

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/prod...6495-page.html
http://www.allsailboats.com/m/britanniaboatsltd..html
http://www.britanniacharts.com/contact.htm

and this one looks like a good resource in general:

http://boat-design.net/

[mbd]

From the Boat design page above:

Flapdoodle Folding Dinghy plans

More links at the bottom of the Flapdoodle page...

[mbd]

Sea Hopper

[ebb]

G'morn Mike,
Flapdoodle looks promising. Notice they avoid stating the weight. Price for plans is right! Total weight would be good to know. Including the paint which does add to the weight too.
If it can be assembled onboard (probably ON the cockpit as suggested) it could be launched using the boom. So superlight is not totally necessary. Bet you're looking at 75# at least.

Britannia and Stowaway(Seahopper) have been at war for years. I think one guy left the company and started up his own. Britannia has one boat, Seahopper four or five. My feeling is to go with Seahopper, even tho there is no dealer, last I heard, in the US. They're both English companys - so they are a bit weird. The boats may have some Triumph or Morris Minor qualities. I don't know. Research!!

This little take-apart sailing Optimist will cost you as much as an Ariel! What would one cost delivered to your door? Course, if you're crossing the Atlantic, you can pick one up over there. IF I was going to get one I;d be exactly specific about all the parts I'd expect to be in the pkg(s).

PS...THANKS FOR POSTING THE PICS, NOW WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT!

[mbd]

It looks like it might be easy enough to add a little sailing rig to the Flapdoodle too. Although I'd imagine it would be quite a tender tender...

Hard to go wrong for the price though!

[ebb]

The Flapdoodle is a knockdown Optimist pram (with appologies to Seahopper) of which there are dozens of different versions. It has for years been considered the optimum pram for teaching kids how to sail. Not too tender, I suppose. The Flapper looks more elegant to me in the photos than the Hopper. Doesn't look like an RV strap-on like the Hopper or the Portopote.

A concern I have is that there are no photos of this pram on the water. And none showing a sailplan tho the pram comes with plans for a dropboard and a kickup rudder. No photos of a human sailing, rowing or STANDING. No doubt a DIY sailplan could be found on the net. But was one developed for the Flapper? That bothers me. Because it's a matter of presentation.

The Optimist has a plumb vertical stern which would increase slightly volume and stability - compared to the Flapper. To increase stability you can flatten the bottom and widen it, you can widen it by making the sides more vertical. Increase capacity with taller sides. I guess that every Optimist version has a tweek one way or another. Probably play with the plans you buy. Original plans used the 4X8 sheet of plywood as a pram's max length. But there is no reason to stay within a 2 sheet minimum when cutting for shape. Except for weight. Weight is a real issue here - especially a pram with hard angles and corners. Recently saw a cutting layout that used plywood more economically when done for two.

The idea of take apart goes dead if there's too much overall weight. imco

I'd want at minimum a 400# capacity, go more in a pram for a cruiser, groceries, water - at least one rower and one overweight passenger. I'd take capacity over sailability. But also take comeliness over plain utility. OK, sombody has to review the Flapperdoodle as a boat befor I'd buy it. But if I bought the plans, I'd first make a 1/12 paper model.

FOLDING means one thing to me. You take out some stiffners, seat and stuff, and it actually folds into stowage shape. TAKEAPART: Pieces come out of channels, pockets, etc - and you really need a bag to keep all the parts to gether.

IMAGINE PUTTING YOUR DINGHY TOGETHER IN THE COCKPIT!!!
Imagine launching and retrieving it, cleaning it, bagging it, all nine square yards.
In anything but a flat calm.

The Flapper photos are real cagey about the 'pvc hinges'. They are the whole thing to me: longevity, replacement, maintenance. Is the fabric off the shelf or something made up in the shop?
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________

THERE ARE NO PHOTOS SHOWING THE FLAPPERDOODLE BEING TAKEN APART OR PUT TOGETHER.
THAT IS SUSPICIOUS.
The only visible hinges are on the rudder, they're cool. But looking in the corners of the pram, don't see nuttin. I'm wondering if we're looking at a 'prototype' or an elaborate hoax. Website presentation is a HUGE hole of not enough information. Has anyone been in touch with Duckworth's? Reminds me of unsubstantiated supplement claims for curing some disease! (In banner headlines: 'For only $29 here is a cure for all your dinghy problems... Risk free trial... Non-returnable money back guarantee is absolutely FREE...')

[ebb]

o h h K A Y, just for arguements sake, then maybe I'll shedup.
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Dinks/Schatze.html

Put the tape on the cabintop today: it's about 5' long and 4' wide, surprisingly at the front and at the cockpit. John Atkin (the son) drew some nice little boats that were real departures from his pop's. Schatze is one different little pram and as a nester is in my book a candidate for the cabintop. Not serious, yet, just fartin around. So just to see something I made a couple copies of the art and since it is 7'10" long ticked off the pram in eight equal pieces.

Then drew a line at the "5 foot" marker counting from the stern and cut the bow off. Trimmed it to the lines, turned it around, bow to stern, put it 'in' the back of the boat - and it seems to be a perfect fit. Just to get the brain going. Right?

That means IF you mount the nested pram stern stern forward on the cabin we have the cut pieces over the companionway. I've seen various ways of connecting nesting prams, thru bulkheads, partial blkhds and frames. That is maybe one could design the connecting frames so that they would appear as an arch over the companionway. Course the upside down pram is not going to be happy without some fiddling, both some design innovation and in mounting to the cabin. The bow section will turn out to be too bulky for nesting upsidedown.
Maybe it could be mounted at an up angle to make it easier to git below. The sheet leads from the mast etc will need thinking, no room for the winch? How ugly will this thing look? What about the dodger? Ah h h... Just an evening's provacation.

The Atkin pram as drawn is traditional frame and ply construction. Red meranti is available in 4mm(5/32"). Weighs in at 19# a 4X8 sheet. (6mm(1/4")25# sheet) How about Stitch and Glue with 6oz glass and epoxy overall inside and out, wonder what the finished weight will come out to?

Never made a stitch-n-glue pram, or a nester. Could be a PITA or a lota fun if it turned out it was a cool thing to do for the Ariel. Hey! Ideas anyone?

[CapnK]

Ebb -

Another idea that has bounced around in my brainpan more than once...

Whaddabout a nesting dinghy shaped to fit upside-down over the cabin trunk, *forward of the mast*.

Go belowdecks some time and look at that nice curved shape up under there, imagine that's the _inside_ of the dinghy hull. It's a little shallow, but there's room under the jibsheets for more depth/freeboard, if needed...

At sea this dink would serve as a cover/protection for the forward hatch, it wouldn't be interfering with a vang or forward visibility, it would allow movement on the side decks, and it wouldn't add much in the way of windage.

I think it could be done, but haven't gone beyond thinking about it yet...

[ebb]

Kurt, Definitely a boat shape there!
You'd slip the 'smaller half' over the nose and the larger piece would fit over that. Somebody who has their Ariel together has got to get out there with some cardboard to see if it is feasible.

A pram with bowed sides that have some flare, a 5/8 section cut LOOKS LIKE it will nearly always be able to nest the 3/8 smaller piece inside - in normal designs.

But if you are suggesting we throw some visqueen over the bump and lay-up some mat on it... well, that would be a strange little bugger. We only got a couple feet there befor you hit the mast. BUT MAYBE a pramster could be designed that would fit over the nose and extend forward some. As I see it, we'd try to get at least 7 possibly 8 feet of dinghy. And as a 'general rule' we need to break the little boat 'off center' to get the nesting ability. So if we can live with a three foot, or more, extension onto the foredeck, why not give it a try. The challenge is the connection of the 'halves' which would be open, not bulkheaded.

Now that I "think" about it, it might be possible to nest the tender without trying to stack both pieces on the nose. In other words, somehow we get the longer section out far enough to nest the smaller half on the deck under it. I don't know - maybe not. The smaller half could be bulkheaded making it easier and stronger to attach.

I feel that the observor's critical eye will accept a strange growth on deck if it knows it's a dinghy. So a pram or little skiff overturned on the foredeck propped at an angle on the cabin nose ain't all that bad. Correct? Hey, sez 'cruiser'.
There are fully connected 6' tenders that might work like that on the Ariel. You know: bow up, somewhat hugging the cabin nose with its stern on deck, almost to the pulpit We've seen one here on the Forum, on another dinghy thread.
If we were designing a pram for the foredeck that actually slipped over the nose, maybe some length could be gained by notching (big notch) the stern around the mast. The dinghy would have its bow forward and that would be a good thing, hydrodynamically, AND maybe scrimping a little working room on the foredeck. That would be a one piece pram with a strange bolt-on transom.

If we could get the whole length of the pramster that way then we'd only have to figger out how to bolt on or slip in some sort of transom! Much better I think than trying to bolt bulky halves together, or taking the boat apart to stow. The apparent cabin extension sure would be weird, but the weight and windage would be lower and therefore this idea should be pursued. Definitely!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _


{OK, just had a mental snapshot. 'Looks' good - might actually be feasible:
Find or design a skiff (pointy bow dinghy - could still be a pram if the bow came in pretty tight) that when stowed on deck sits stern to the mast on top of the cabin
- that does tilt at an angle because the bow goes down to the foredeck - but it hugs and fits over the cabin in front of the mast, and over the forehatch.
Might still be able to open the hatch for ventilation.
There would be a concave cutout into the transom of the skiff, a lot or a little, ain't no problem.
Designer decides how low he cuts the skiff's transom into the cabin.
It probably wouldn't follow the contour of the cabin - except initially at its stern - there it'd be a good tite stow.
The skiff's pointy bow forward means some room to work Ariel's bow.
Might be better if there was some pram bow flatness to rest on deck, rather than a point.
The skiff's sides would bow out but would generally be hugging the Ariel's cabin
- that means room to get around.
This one should be easy to make a prelim fullsize mockup right in place out of doorskin and/or cardboard to see if it is at all feasible.
Might get a 7 footer, 4' wide! To keep it looking good we'd have to get some bow in the sides so that it is wider in the middle - might be a problem. No bolting though!}

[ well, the idea survived the night:
We really try to keep the weight down. Curved surfaces are stronger than flat panels.
There is the chore of getting it off the deck, turning it over and launching it.
Assuming the tender is ready to launch as is, we'd have built in flotation making it unsinkable. THAT would be good. Comforting thought!

So the rigging experts out there could figure out how to use the whiskerpole mounted on the front of the mast with a halyard to lift and boom the skiff over the side, Right? Lift it so it was on its side coming up or going down? Guess you'd have a bridle to eyes centered on the bow and stern.]


If we were Tritons we wouldn't be thinking about all this pramosuction and prammutation. Sheeesh, It's tuff being small!!!

Anyway, a real simple, SIMPLE, no baloney folding boat would be the coolest.

[ebb]

Chesapeake Light Craft's very pretty multichine stitch and glue Eastport Pram just might be the ideal tender. Apropos the preceding post. It is mo-dern yet has a cute traditional look that may compliment the Ariel, both in the water and overturned on the foredeck. The pram has a lot of rocker and round bottom, so it's not entirely the best in stability and load capacity. (That may be my uninformed predjuice.) But good on the foredeck offshore shedding green water. It's 7'9", 4' wide and
60#!
That is a considerable clincher. You'd be making it from a kit so alterations IF NECESSARY to fit the Ariel deck would be direct and part of the process. It's a sailing pram so there is a rudder and if you have to fool with the transom to make it fit down on the cabin nose, that has to be well planned and thought out. I think it'll be a cinch - it'd be an extra piece with gudgeons attached that would clamp on and extend the transom up to its designed height.

Pictures show the pram finished bright with painted topsides, but a cruiser might make it look more utilitarian so it doesn't become an object of DESIRE.

Can some youngster please bring a photo over here, it's worth a look fer sure. I haven't a clue if it will 'fit' the foredeck.
The chines are lapped, you be glueing them together creating longitudinal ribs. I would make it from 5/32 meranti and glass it inside and out with light cloth, maybe try vacuum bagging. The shape of the boat and the chine ribs with a monoque frp finish should make it very strong indeed.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
Thanks for the pics, Mike! (the post below this)

Another comment (of course!) and it is this:
Okoume' is a non-durable mahogany used almost exclusively by kyack makers. That's CLC. It must be the reason the plywood comes in 3, 4, 5, 6, 9mm, etc panels for the skinny plywood trade. If I choose to build an Eastport I'd ask if 4mm red meranti could be substituted in their kit. Red meranti is stronger than okoume', heavier than okoume', more rot resistant ie durable than okoume', and stiffer than okoume'. It costs a lot less than okoume'. Meranti (4mm, 6mm1/4", 9mm) is made from at least 8 species of luan, philippine mahogany, so you have to be sure you are getting a technical grade from the supplier. (My research sez we want Red Shorea negrosensis. The best wood and phenolic glue.) If you glass the shell it'll end up being 1/4", probably a little heavier, but it'll be a hell of lot more durable. Just my opinion.

[mbd]

Nice! A friend of mine built one of their kayaks. Excellent website too....

Eastport Pram Gallery

A review from Good Old Boat

And some photos: sailing, loaded, and a lass...