Bilge Pump Discussions

[eric (deceased)]

the water may also have come from the rudder post shaft.especially when porpoising up and down in any kind of sea way.I had that happen on many boats----especially while motoring.it has also come to mind that it may be a bad idea to store any outboard horizonally on its side---probably best to keep uprite at all times----as the rolling action of any boat may tend to allow any remaining seawater from a lower unit to find its way somewhere into the power head----rendering it useless when needed most.also all the inspection you can do at the hull/deck seem may result in not finding any leaks.however these boats are in fact flexible---after being under way for any length of time---be it a day or 40 days---these hulls will flex over time---resulting in a hull/deck deficit not seen before.

[c_amos]

THis is from a post I made on the Sailfar.net site earlier this year. My system has evolved as I installed it, the first part (above the line) was from June.

Bilge pumps
After a good storm on the Chesapeake earlier this year, I was reminded of the value of a good bilge pumping system.

Of course we know there is no better bilge pump then 'a scared Sailor with a bucket', but I am not a huge fan of that system since it is tough to sail and bail at the same time.

The boat I was on had a small (500 GPH) electric pump in the bilge, and a manual pump mounted where it could be operated from the cockpit. The leak was not a big one, but when I discovered it the floor boards were floating, so there was a fair amount of water to get rid of.

Issue 1). Electronic switches.
The electric pump’s automatic switch was one of the fancy ‘solid state’ ones. It of course failed. It was the second failure of one of these ‘foolproof’ solid state switches I have personally delt with. The first was on an Alberg 30 I have been keeping an eye on. For my boat there will be nothing but good old mercury float switches.

Issue 2). Redundant redundancy.
The smallish electronic bilge pump was not able to remove the water fast enough for my liking. I have a similar sized pump on my boat, and it works fine for normal underway splashes that wind up in the bilge, but it was out of it’s league. Even if it were larger, the manual switch had taken it out of the running. It also eventually clogged while clearing the bilge (you just have to turn it off, and the backflow of water mostly clears it). The manual bilge pump, a Bosworth Guzzler, (400 I think) had nearly cleared the bilge when the flapper valve either failed or was jammed with debris.

The ‘thirsty mate’ slide type pump then had to be used to finish clearing the bilge.The Guzzler is a good pump, but like anything else it can (and will) fail when you need it. I was glad that the thirsty mate pump worked, since it would be hard to get a bucket into the narrow bilge access.

The plan for my boat was to be set up like this one had been. I have now decided add another pump (triple redundancy, quadruple if you count the thirsty mate pump). I will keep my < 500 GPH pump at the lowest point of my bilge. I will also add a >1000 GPH pump at a higher place in the bilge to take over if the first pump becomes clogged, overwhelmed or fails. I have already purchased a ‘plastimo 925’ manual pump that I will mount in the cockpit.

If you have an inboard, you might look at using the cooling pump as an extra means of removing water. Consider this carefully though, as running your motor dry, or sucking debris into the cooling system might complicate your situation.

Issue 3). Bilge hygiene.
Both of the pump failures I experienced were the result of trash in the bilge. I hose my bilge out regularly on ‘Faith’ but it is easier to keep clean since it is well glassed and accessible.

Issue 4). Awareness.
Of course this would not have been as pressing a problem if I had known earlier that the bilge was filling. This boat had a high bilge water alarm, but it failed. I plan to wire an extra float switch to the ‘test’ button of a smoke detector, to notify me if the water rises. The smoke alarm will still function, so it will do double duty. It should also be loud enough that if it went on while the boat was at the dock and I was not present, someone might hear it and know something was wrong.

It would also work to keep the bilge access open if you are in bad wx, but that might present a hazard to crew going below.


I know this is a long post, but floating floor boards are enough to ruin your whole day. My First mate did great through the storm, the waves and wind did not seem to phase her, even the lightning did not bother her all that much. Looking below and seeing all that water was a bit much, and I will admit it is something I would rather not repeat myself. Maybe this will remind someone to re-visit your dewatering system.

__________________________________________________ ________________

Since starting this thread, I ended up going with a little different set up.


First is an Atwood Sahara 750 GPH pump. It is mounted at the lowest point of the bilge with an internal float switch. It handles the normal splashes that come into the bilge. It draws 2.8a running under load, and with the >3' head pumps an honest 450 GPH. (it replaced my 490 gph pump).


Second, I looked at a bunch of pumps for a larger capacity back up... Ended up with a Rule 'Gold' 2000 GPH pump. It was pricey, but I liked the way it was built. It is mounted just aft of the Atwood, and slightly higher. It is also pumping a head of >3' so I get something like 1500 GPH out of it.



These two pumps running together should go for something like 10 hours on my current battery. I would more realistically expect something less then that but plan to double the capacity of the battery bank next spring.

Then there is the Plastimo 925 manual pump that I will mount in the cockpit. It is rated at 60 GPH, but I guess that has more to do with how fast I pump it. It wants a 1" hose, which I am having some trouble finding in the crush resistant hose…. but I will work out something.

Slightly different model, looks the same though

Then there are two of the Thirsty mate pumps aboard. (one of the 18" and one of the 36")


They don’t take up much space, and are easy to grab and run to go help someone else out.

Then (for that whole scared Sailor thing) there is always my ‘Bacon & associates’ 7l Rubber bucket. (I love this thing, has a great handle, and slightly flexes….. wonderful bucket!

[ebb]

Craig,
sometimes wonder if I should chime in as I don't want to appear as a know-it-all or a constant loud-mouth. So here goes just to push it along summore. These are taken from my notes as I do not have my bilge pump system installed. I apologize for any repititions!

Electrics: Good connections. Use Ancor adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connectors. Have another piece of shrink wrap on the wire and after the above has cooled shrink that one over it all.
Best wire. Use ONLY insulated duplex tinned multi-strand wire that is sized for voltage drop based on how long the run is (remember, it's TWICE as long) and the pump amp draw.
Set the system up for auto with manual overide. Wire bilge pumps directly to battery so that when you hit the battery selector switch when leaving the boat no matter what it says on the switch the boat is still protected.
Include a hidden total kill switch so pumps won't cycle when the boat is out of the water.
Constant cycling can be a battery drain fiasco. Bats have to be hooked up to a charger and/or solar panel. This is addressed on the whole system agenda. Trickle-charger?
Don't over-stress the pumps. Use recommended size hose. Keep the head as short as is safe. Reduce length of hose to the loop. Off the shelf loop vents can clog and cause siphoning. Check valves restrict pumping capacity and are frowned on by nearly everybody including insurors.
Make sure exit is as high above the waterline as possible and is protected with a seacock.
Use Trident 147/148 smooth ID wall hose, NOT corrugated hose from the marine store.
Use 100% 316 hose clamps. Make sure all parts of the clamp is s.s. The best clamps have a smooth/solid band that is not sliced. Sandvic?

Source all leaks coming into the boat.

Put the smaller pump in the low position. It will take care of incidental water and is cheaper to replace. Mount it high enough so it won't continuously cycle because of hose water run back. Put the high capacity pump switch higher in the keel-sump so that it is used only in emergencys. Helps save an expensive pump.
Use UNCOVERED Rule super switches so that you can lift them out of the sump to SEE if they are working.
Use the manual pump to lower the water level in the sump. Save the electric.

There are threads here that discuss A/C leak sources.
Planning to take the boat offshore creates a way more intense level of leak protection. Some things requiring upgrading have been talked about on the forum. Make sure that what you might have to depend on is actually working. Checklist.
Investigate mounting the pumps to King-starboard or other plastic to make it easily removable so sump can be cleaned if necessary and pumps replaced or cleaned. Float and super switches same thing. To keep them in place in a crowded keel-sump. 338's sump may have to have non-submersible pumps.
Flex-impeller (non-submersible pumps) will burn up if run dry, have good head but way less capacity. Research how long a 'submersible' can be run out of water, ie, with a short hose into the bilge???
Attwood pumps DO NOT USE TINNED WIRE in their connecting wires.

Check out Snake River Electronics' "Bilge Buddy Pump Control" that senses water level in bilge without floats and can be set so rapid pump cycling can't occur.
Carry whole pumps as spares.
Submersible pumps are 'throwaways'. Most have a one year warranty. Seasonal maintenance could include replacing the bilge pump with a new one.

No manual pump can keep up with a 1" hole located two feet below the waterline. Nor can you depend on the largest electric Rule to keep up with a gusher like that! Have access to all parts of the hull. Carry a sailcloth hole-diaper as well.

[frank durant]

2 quick comments....Craig-LOVE the pale !! Ebb-post away....we'd all miss your 'loud mouth' if not here !!

[c_amos]

Had an experience with another boat today that made this thread very timely.

.....Good connections. Use Ancor adhesive lined heat shrink crimp connectors. Have another piece of shrink wrap on the wire and after the above has cooled shrink that one over it all.

One advantage of the 'shallow bilge' on #226 is that by placing both pumps under the sink, they are both in the deepest part of the bilge, and close enough to the electrical panel to run the leads directly off of the pumps and the switch for the Rule, to a dedicated terminal block. I like to remove the cover off of a crimp connector, and crimp the bare terminal directly on to the wire. I then solder the crimped part of the connection, and heat shrink over the soldered end. This seals the end of the wire and the end of the crimp where the ends of the wires would normally be exposed is sealed with solder. I wired my old MG this way, and never had another electrical problem... no small feat for an MG

Set the system up for auto with manual overide. Wire bilge pumps directly to battery so that when you hit the battery selector switch when leaving the boat no matter what it says on the switch the boat is still protected.

I don't have a battery selector switch, but have the 750GPH pump on a selector switch where I can pump it manually or set it to automatic. (standard DPDT switch, with rule cover plate).

The 2000GPH pump is hardwired through the mercury switch. It does not share the same fuse as the other pump.

THe need for redundant wiring was made apparent just this afternoon. An Alberg 30 that is in my marina, that I watch of an out of town friend was noticed to be sitting low in the stern......

... she had had her floor boards floating once before when... the 'solid state' switch had failed. I had pumped her out and rigged a temporary spare float switch. When the owner came down, I recommended he consider a second pump, mounted higher then the other.

He mounted a rule 1500, on it's own float switch slightly higer then the smaller pump.

I was surprised today to look below and find the floor boards floating again...


I checked the power, it was on. I checked the battery status, it was good..... I then reached for the power cable for the lower pump. When I pulled on it to raise the pump, the pump started to run. It turns out he had connected both pumps through the same power wire, and there was a bad connection through the terminal that connected it to the battery.

Fixing the connection brought both pumps to life.

Check out Snake River Electronics' "Bilge Buddy Pump Control" that senses water level in bilge without floats and can be set so rapid pump cycling can't occur.

I do not believe that the rapid cycling is as much of a problem in practice on our boats as it may be where longer runs of hose are necessary.

The Rule switches, as I would expect most, are balanced so that they have a 'tipping point' where the water has to rise to a given height (say 2") before they turn on, but don't turn off until the water is below some much lower level (like 1/2 or 3/4"). I have read where some see the water that is contained in the hose flowing back into the bilge when the power is turned off and cycling the pump back on. The quart or two held in the hoses are not enough to come anywhere near raining the water high enough to 'tip' the floats back on.

As for solid state switches.... my experiences with electronics are that if it can fail, it will..... I have personally seen two of these 'better mouse traps' that have failed.

......No manual pump can keep up with a 1" hole located two feet below the waterline. Nor can you depend on the largest electric Rule to keep up with a gusher like that! Have access to all parts of the hull. Carry a sailcloth hole-diaper as well.

Agree, have my tapered plugs, quick set underwater epoxy, and rubber tarp patch all where I can get at em...

sometimes wonder if I should chime in as I don't want to appear as a know-it-all or a constant loud-mouth....

I appreciate it ebb. Your opinions are well reasoned and insightful... I hope anyone gets a tenth as much from my ramblings as I have from yours.