Printable View
I am looking for a good swimming/man overboard ladder to install on my Ariel. I have received some literature from Tops in Quality and have talked with a number of people, all of whom have a slightly different opinion (so I am looking for a few more).
Please give me some comment/suggestions on ladders that have been successfully installed.
I would appreciate hearing your experiences.
Thank you.
I presume you have already reviewed the usual suspects . . . rigid or rope ladders of various designs. One of our computer challenged members has an interesting looking wooden swim-boarding ladder. We've asked for details and will publish them in an upcoming edition of the Association newsletter. :D
I have a rigid four step ladder. When I want to use it, I snap it into two mounting brackets on deck. I have the brackets just forward of the Genoa track.
I dont go for a swim often so I dont use the ladder much. Although the ladder should be readily accessible, it tends to get buried under alot of crap when stored away.
I always thought that a permanently installed folding ladder off the stern would be a good safety feature. Its not easy to pull yourself back aboard without a ladder if you end up in the drink by yourself.
This thread was originally posted on the Gallery section of this website. A photo of hull #330 "Augustine" under sail was featured. In the photo, the emergency boarding ladder was shown. The ladder was hanging off the starboard rail. Additional photos of the emergency ladder and jacklines now appear in later postings to this boarding ladder thread.
Scott:
Is that the ladder we discussed last year tied to the gunwale?
Theis,
Yes, the white cylindrical bundle, which has just washed over the lee (starboard) rail in the photo is the boarding ladder that we discussed last summer. Note that the ladder is attached by carabineers to through-deck-mounted eyebolts, which are tied together by a stainless steel below deck backing plate. These eye-bolts also serve as attachment points for the lifeline system. What is missing from the above photograph is the jackline that secures it in place even when the boat is heeled to 40 degrees and water is coming over the rail.
The new photo incorporated with this post shows the same ladder with the jackline in place at the dock.
The jackline runs through a set of two through-deck-mounted pad eyes at the bow and is shackled to through-deck-mounted pad eyes on either side of the cockpit. The jackline makes one continuous run forward on each side of the mast so that I do not have to unclip while going forward.
A remaining twelve or so feet of the jackline is left over. I run that line forward again from the cockpit on the outside of the lifelines and shrouds, and attach it with two Velcro straps to a lifeline terminal adjacent to the boarding step and to the base of the upper shroud. There is factory-sewn loop on each end of the jackline. It is this section of the jackline that lies across and secures the boarding step to prevent it from washing overboard quite so easily.
My harness has two safety tethers. One is three feet long, and one is six feet long. They are both connected to the harness with a single snap shackle. I would not normally clip into a conventional lifeline, but my lifelines are not stanchion mounted. They are instead attached to through-deck-mounted hardware at deck level at the bow, and at the boarding step, and also to the pin rail. The pin rail is in turn secured to both lower shrouds. It is therefore possible to safely clip onto a lifeline if so desired. Because the jacklines are inboard, however, they are safer lines to which to attach a harness than are the lifelines. Jackline use offers less chance of falling overboard before the tether stops you, in comparison with clipping onto a lifeline, and particularly so with the three foot tether attached to the windward jackline.
The jackline makes one continuous run forward so that I do not have to unclip and while going forward.
The only downside is that it takes a while to rig and unrig the jacklines before and after sails, and they do get wet, so in the autumn and winter, I bring them home to dry them out after a night sail. Likewise for my boarding ladders.
Now speaking of the boarding ladders, the reason for taking the tail end of the jackline forward again and attaching it to the shrouds with break-away Velcro loops, is that if a person were to fall over forward of the shrouds, that person's tether would not be long enough for him or her to reach the boarding ladders which are on either side adjacent to the cockpit.
I installed a second snap shackle on my harness belt loop. It can be clipped into the sewn-in end of the jackline that hangs over the gunnels at the location of the upper shroud. Once secured to this loop, the overboard sailor should be able to unclip at the harness from the single shackle that connects the harness to the three and six foot tether and drift back on the jackline tail to the emergency boarding ladder near the cockpit. By the way, the pull-down lanyard for the emergency boarding ladder is suction cupped to the hull, as shown on this photo so that it won't blow back up onto the deck in the wind. As long as the suction cup is wet, it seems to stay fixed on the hull beneath the rub rail during a sail. All of the jacklines and ladder lanyards are yellow, so the safety lines are easily identified as other than sail control lines.
Finally, the boarding ladders are made from PVC pipe and quarter inch Dacron line. The ladder rungs are made of the PVC pipe, and each rung has a length of line run through it. The material used to wrap and contain the ladder in its stowed (rolled) position is vinyl perforated self-lining material that I purchased inexpensively at a hardware store.
This photo provides a close-up of Augustine's emergency ladder. The bowline attaching the jackline to the pad eye in the background has been replaced by a bow shackle to speed installation.
Pulling down on the lanyard releases the Velcro strip on the lanyard holding the boarding causing it to unroll presenting four PVC rungs to the overboard sailor. And no I have not jumped overboard to find out if all of this works, but then again I have not tested my parachute either.:)
Nice looking rig, Scott. You've done a neat job.
But, as to the ladder, the kudos won't come until the boss man takes the plunge into the briney deep and proves his own invention. Then you will get the huzzahs (not that I doubt that it will work, but my confidence is diminished if the boss man hasn't bitten the bullet).
If the water is cold, then you have the real proof. That way you will be able to prove that you can get out quickly. Just don't do anything that isn't safe.
(FYI, with my ladder, I too put off testing. Finally, in mid-summer, with 70 degree water, I proved that it works before succumbing to hypothermia).
On Pathfinder we always carry a ladder similar to what you have coiled up on the rail. And to answer Theis question we do a recovery drill every year. It is just to dangerous out there not to know how things work. I recall the first time we went through the drill and how difficult we found it to get back on the boat. What we found Scott Was that the ladder has to be hung from two anchor points like you have yours. Our second point was that you needed a handle of some sort to grab on to after you were able to stand on the ladder. What we ended up doing is just secure a loose sheet (main or jib) on a couple of cleats just so there is something to grab on to. Some day you should give it a try, there is a technique.
One rule we have on Pathfinder if there is someone over board is when we are able to grab our victim the first thing we do is secure them to the boat. Any way, any how, just don't lose them. If we have to we will drag them to some place to get them out of the water. Just don't lose them.........ed
I sure agee with Ed about the need for somthing to grab hold of above the deck level. We practiced with our ladder and found that it was just about impossible to get onboard with out a grab rail of some sort.
A second problem with the rope based ladder that we discovered from the test - it swings under the hull as you attempt to climb up.
Because of the swinging and the need for a grab rail, we are thinking of getting a rigid ladder that can attach to either side of the boat via deck fittings. Feet on the ladder extend from the side to keep the it away from the hull and the ladder folds small enough to fit easily into one of our cockpit lockers. I believe West Marine's model 4 is the one we are considering.
Theis, Ed, and Billl,
Thanks for the helpful comments, insights, and suggestions. Properly testing of these bright ideas is so important.
My sure-fire method for helping someone back onboard in an emergency is my Garhauer lifting davit. With a six to one block ratio, a 200 lb wet sailor would take 33 pounds of pull to lift. I have used the lifting davit at sea and it does work. So for a two person crew, once a line is securely around the overboard sailor and clipped onto the Garhauer carabiner, or once that carabiner is clipped onto the sailor's harness, the Garhauer Lifting Davit will permit one person to lift a 200 lb load onto the deck. Just don't jibe or tack while the lifting davit is in place.
The emergency boarding ladder arrangement is my approach to dealing with the risks facing the singlehander. I sail alone more often than I sail with crew. The system has to work under a variety of conditions, and not merely when the boat is at rest. The ladder has to be accessible by a overboard singlehand sailor without unclipping from his or her harness tether, and must be capable of being deployed on either side of the boat by a sailor in the water.
A steel or aluminium ladder that has to be attached by a crew member who is on deck doesn't do very much for the single hander who has fallen overboard. Owners of boats with flat transoms can solve this problem with handy fold-down two part metal ladders. I could not visualize one of those working on an Ariel stern.
Hence the rope-based ladders with PVC rungs and the pull-down lanyards on Augustine. I have played with the system at the dock, and it appears that it will work at sea, but it is quite another thing to lock the tiller under sail and jump overboard forward of the shrouds to see if it really works. I just installed this system in October, and have not yet had a skilled crew onboard to insure safe testing conditions. Keep in mind that the harbor has been closed here for much of the winter. Obviously I would not be eager to jump overboard while the boat is sailing close hauled at five knots even with an experienced crew onboard, especially during the winter. Around here we call that trolling. And there is always the possibility of being inadvertently keel hauled in the process.
Playing with the system at the dock, it appears that an overboard sailor will be able to use the lifelines adjacent to the lifeline terminals shown in the photo above as hand holds. These terminals are through-deck-mounted eye bolts. Once standing on the bottom step, it is possible to reach other secure handholds on the deck, such as the wooden coming boards. It is quite another thing to do all of that while the boat is sailing forward at five knots with the rail down (or up if one is trying to climb up the ladder on the windward side).
The idea behind the system is to increase the possibility of survival should one fall overboard while alone, and not to create an undeserved illusion of safety, which might cause one to take unnecessary risk. Frankly, anytime you sail out of that harbor alone you place yourself at risk, and every time you leave the cockpit to go forward that risk increases geometrically. The most important objective is to stay on the boat. That is why I like to use a three foot tether connected to the upwind jack line whenever possible.
This image has been moved to an eariler post.
This photo, which was promised above, provides a view of the the jackline and emergency boarding ladder system. It was originally posted with some of the entries from this thread on the Gallery thread, but subsequently moved to this thread.
This photo, which was promised above, provides a view of the jacklines from Augustine's bow. It was originally posted with some of the entries from this thread on the Gallery thread, but subsequently moved to this thread.
Here's a commercial product that appears to be designed along the same lines as the one Scott developed:
http://www.wichard-usa.com/ProductBu...RDING%20LADDER
Bill,
Thanks for the reference to the Wichard site. They make great products.
There is a rather radical difference between my boarding ladder and the one pictured on the Wichard page.
The Wichard ladder has a single point of attachment, and uses webbing steps that resemble mast steps. From the photograph on the Wichard page, the topmost step is somewhat below the sheer line.
In the system that I designed and built specifically for my Ariel, The ladder is located adjacent to cockpit at the best place to board the boat from the water, since the hull is fairly vertical there, and there are satisfactory adjacent hand holds on deck (deck-level lifeline terminals, and teak coaming boards). The ladder attaches to two through-deck-mounted eye bolts on deck, which are approximately one foot apart (the length of the ladder rungs)
My emergency boarding ladder has a yellow lanyard with a loop sewn into the end. That lanyard is suction-cupped to the outside of the hull, so that it won't blow back up onto the deck in the wind. As long as the suction cup is wet, it seems to stay fixed on the hull beneath the rub rail during a sail, even when the rail is buried.
When one pulls downward on the lanyard, the ladder unrolls. Standing on the bottom rung of the ladder will place a crew member at a level where the toe rail is at slightly above knee level and will provide the crewmember with two handholds.
There are three rungs on each ladder. The ladder rungs are made of PVC pipe with 1/4 inch Dacron line threaded through them. The top step is just below the sheer line. The ladder is attached to the through-deck bolted eyebolts at the forward and aft edges of the boarding steps by carabiner. The ladder is packed inside a perforated soft plastic sheet, which unrolls to protect the hull when the ladder is in use and serves to aid in rolling and securing the ladder.
I do not at present have any photos of the ladder in its deployed state. I will endeavor to take some photos and post them later.
Pete, I noticed your boarding ladder. What kind is it? How do you like it? How did you mount it? And where can you get it?
We only have a rope ladder now, and for a big out of shape guy like me it's almost impossible to get back on after a swim. My wife is getting me one for Christmas (so she can swim with us) so any help would be great!
mike
That's a Garelick 4 step boarding ladder. You need to through-bolt the mounts for it into the deck. You may be able to see the mounts in the picture below, just behind the midship cleat.
I had the same ladder before, which eventually corroded. One leg broke when I was climbing it. In addition, the bottom step only reaches just below the waterline, so its not especially convenient to get out of the water.
So, I can't say its a great ladder.
The cheapest price I found was at Boater's World. It comes with the mounts.
http://www.boatersworld.com/product/366480051.htm
Storage is another problem. The ladder wont fit through the cockpit locker hatch.
A 3 step + 2 step folding ladder would be nice, if they make such a thing.
Hey what about this one, It's called the Folding Latch Type Swim Ladder - 3-6.
It folds, and it hooks on to the side of the boat. I guess I would have to put backing plates on the hardware. This one is also made by Garelick for around $178. http://www.garelick.com/product.php?pnumber=12048
this one has 6 steps so maybe it would go below the water line enough to allow for easier boarding.
What do you think?
mike
FWIW, I'm thinking of something similar, but mounted off the stern and folds up to and attaches to the stern rail when not deployed. You don't have to worry about where to stow it, and then a line could be rigged when solo sailing so you can grab it from the water. I'll have to find a picture...
Mike
I'm sure you've already run across this site (bristol 29, I believe). This chap has incorporated a ladder into the push pit and is the very similar to what we're having fashioned for 113. I do like your idea of a trip line dragging behind and may need to make some alterations before they start cutting and welding. Thanks for doing your part to keep the project continually expanding.
Tony G
The only problem I might see with the stern mount is on the Ariel, doesn't the stern "fold back" under the hull too far for the stand-offs? But I do like the placement! It's nice and out of the way!
mike
CommanderPete,
First, having glanced again through your thread I have to complement you on your excellent photography. You are a credit to this forum, I wish I was able to take pictures nearly as well as you.
The nicest ladder I have come across was installed on Ariel Spirit (#3). Of all the excellent hardware that came with this boat when I delivered it, the ladder was the one piece that came nearest not making it to the new owners (conscience is so darn unhandy).
http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/us...l_StbdBeam.JPG
Not exactly sure why it is on it's side, but I can't seem to modify it.... just tilt your head. :D
It folds up to a very small package, but because of the way it is made it does not try to fold under when you step aboard. Not sure of the mfg, but if anyone learns where one could be had I would sure like to get one.
__________________________________________________ _
OBTW, great things have been happening with A-3, look forwar to her Capt, can finding some time to post the pictures.
That's a neat ladder. I looked for collapsible boarding ladders and only found this one in England
http://www.safety-marine.co.uk/Life-...nufacturer.htm
There are a couple of reasonably priced ladders here in stainless, dont know who makes them (scroll down)
http://www.popeyesmarine.com/Marine%20Gear.htm
Lots of ladders on ebay
One problem with a side mount ladder is that people won't be able to resist yanking on the lifeline stantion as they come aboard
Say Mike...
You planning on doing much swimming in Maine?
I've tried it
Brrrrrrrrr
Here's the picture:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony G
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/a...1&d=1194561505
Tony, if you'd post more pictures of 113 I'm sure you'd get a lot more help from the forum in that department. ;)
Anyway, I've been thinking about a stern boarding ladder similar to the one below on a CD25. I like that it is rigid, and how the bend let's it snug up to the stern rail when stored. However, after a little reading on the subject last night, a number of people say climbing a stern ladder in rough conditions is quite difficult - and dangerous as the stern is jumping up and down with the wave action. Still, I like the idea of having it always available and not having to dig it out of a cockpit locker when you need it.
:D No kidding CPete! Yes, swimming in Maine stinks, but the kids don't know any different...
A couple more options:
Maybe this one from Garelick could be hung off the transom and folded up when not needed. WM sells it for $88.99. They have all sorts of variations. I like this one for its small size and cost.
On the other hand, I'd hate to mess with that pretty after section...
Next up, from Bosun Supplies, a telescoping version. This is nice because you could mount it up nearer the taff rail, so it's out of the way. A couple of extra steps can only help when trying to get on board. This goes for $137/$156 under/over platform, whatever that means. Also comes with a "No Hassle Guarantee & Lifetime Warranty"...
Lastly, this one looks like the cadillac of stowable ladders "The Foldaway", from Mystic Stainless. Nifty looking system that can attach to a rail mounted genoa track? Starting with a 24" single section ladder for $386.
imco any ladder we consider has to be seen from the water with a fully clothed non athletic person desperately grasping for a hand-hold and trying to think how to climb out.
If I was lucky enough to get both hands on it, the next thing is getting a leg up onto a rung. Imagine you do, and let's say it is your right leg, you get the foot partially on a rung and start hauling yourself up. As you do you are straightening that leg in an effort to gain height. Your other leg is trying to find something solid too - but it isn't there! What you are doing is also pushing IN against the ladder with your leg with tremendous force. This sideways load has to be considered when looking at a fold-down ladder. The more rungs in the water the easier it will be to climb UP.
As you pull your body up, you've got your bulky lifevest (hopefully if it's an inflatable it's deployed), probably a coat or foul-weather gear, gallons of water on your chest and in your lap. How many extra pounds at that most memorable moment in your life are you trying to suck out of the water?
I've never seen a ladder strong enough for what I imagine is a worst case survival event. Or even a ho-hum event. The ladder with the whole world rolling has to be rock solid. It can't be an articulated one because when you lift a leg into the thing and push up you don't want to end up under the boat. You will loose your purchase, and have to depend mostly on arm strength. Suppose your hand got between the ladder and the boat?
Lifting a leg encumbered with clothing will be incredibly difficult and quickly tiresome. You might have kicked your boots off and your feet are numb. Two rungs below the water will be really hard to get a foot up into. Three to my mind is minimum.
I guess we'll go with the toughest looking ladder we can find anyway, and hope it will work as promised.
Isn't there a law that says, the better the ladder the more likely you are never going to need it?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
google EXTEND YOUR STEP the BOARDING LADDER EXTENSION
www.clmarine.com466.html
check out the wood treds over the foot severing ladder rungs. And the prosthetic add-on.
http://www.portalladder.com/navy/index.asp
Cast aluminum very compact folding ladder - each step folds and is 6" wide, effectively holding only one foot in place as you climb. Military thinking but it could work as a survival tool. Bet it's expensive!
'Xtend and Climb Telescoping Ladder'
These are ingenious true telescoping aluminum tube ladders. A marinized (not yet to my knowledge) version would get my attention. The ones I've seen are fairly light very rigid when extended, and a shorter model for the transom or stern quarter would be even lighter. Easy to imagine pulling DOWN from the water on a trailing lanyard and getting 6' of REAL ladder to climb on!
Think that boarding ladders are a survival issue. Someone has pointed out that if the boat is moving while you are trying to board , a stern mounted ladder might be difficult to use, and suggested a ladder off the stern quarter. Where of course the mounting is more difficult. If reinforced stanchions were used, they might create the stiffness and leverage needed.
Someone, maybe the Pardey's, have permanently mounted s.s. handholds on the stern quarters. Don't think they are tube - they may be solid bent rod like extra long U-boltsw Can see something like that on the Ariel about where the center of the cockpit is, two, one above the other on the topsides.
Haven't seen this: Handholds on the topsides would be good if you can use them to grab the toerail. Rock climbers are always sticking legs out to find a ledge. Suppose you did that on your Ariel. Stragtically placed handhold rails and another one for a foot to find, off to the side and a little lower, to pry yourself sideways out of the drink. 'We don't need no stinkun ladders!' imco as always.
Article in Good Old Boat this month on this subject. Folding ladder with rope ladder attached - breakaway twine to launch the well-below waterline 911 boarding system.
A couple pix and Richard Smith's idea below.
Amazing to see one of those again.
Made one out of 5/8s nylon and used it to work on the top of a gaffer mast. Maybe a lot of people did - and everyone found out it was a mother to use for any extended work up the mast. You cannot work on one leg for long. And when up there and strapped in and so forth you can't trade legs.
Mine's out in the garage somewhere and now years later I'd never think it will be used on the Ariel. But maybe it could be cannibalized for the folding ladder pull-down. Good idea!!! I would, instead of using H.G.Smith's looped and eyed top, tie off the rope ladder to the sides of the metal one. (The rope ladder's top is the middle of the line you are using to make the ladder.) Obviously the guy in the picture used the top off the one he made!
I remember there was an enormous amount of rope to pull around the step parts in making up the 30 footer. I made mine with bigger diameter rope but as an exact copy of the illustration in his famous book.
In the text he says you could make the ladder wider with more coils per step but they would sag and be uncomfortable for both feet on a step.
BUT, you know me, I'm thinking put in a stiffener in the form, say, carbon fiber tube(s) or two or three white oak dowels of the length required COULD be laid in as the coiling on each step begins. Be interesting to try. Bigger diameter coils would be easier on the feet. None to my knowledge has improved on Herv's wonderful invention. If you did introduce a step stiffener into the design, it won't collect into a nice tidy pile like the original! That was the best thing about it.
I trusted line in the old days. I hauled the Smith ladder up with the halyard and then tied the feet off to opposite rails as tight as I could to keep the thing from twisting and bowing out from the mast. Body weight loosened it it considerably. But I did use it, and no doubt it contributed to the mental and podiatary problems I now enjoy.
.
imco it would be OK for the use illustrated. You have to use your instep when climbing this thing, and to my uncalloused that is a bit much.:(
This boarding ladder setup would work really nice for Bill of A-231 and cruiser Craig with their split pushpits...
Mike, it's hard to make out that ladder there. Looks a little like the Mystic Stainless Foldaway - which looks really substantial going to the diagram on their site.
Still a look though - have to see the actual ladder to be sure.
One little detail either way could be the clincher, as it so often is when making a decision to buy something.
The Foldaway mounts to a track.
That's clever, spreads the attachment points, allows repositioning of the ladder, and is strong. The taffrail on the Ariel is curved two ways and could present a problem, maybe not. The Mystic Foldaway diagram obviously shows the ladder off the side of a boat.
The tube sides have slides of what looks like plastic tubing that immobilize the hinges and stiffens the deployed ladder.
Again, that may be a good idea as it gives the hinges a little movement. The hinge design looks like they have some 3-dimensional flex too. They may turn on a stainless toggle and pin device, it's hard to make out exactly, but if they do something like that that would insure that they last. Mystic may have something there, wish there was a close up of those babies.
Imagine trying to get the ladder folded again once you're on deck. The lower section slides will be at water level. H m m m m ....
The standoffs may be a problem to keep positioned. But the ladder may be able to stand the strain if one or both fold under load at the wrong time. It looks like a great product.
Mystic has an optional handrail kit that would allow you to haul yourself up by not relying entirely on the pushpit stanchions. One end of the handle-loops mount on the same track. Looks like they 'fold' also independently of the ladder - they may be TOO articulated for anything but conservative boarding.
The ladder is obviously meant for an open sternrail....BUT
It might be a good thing to have a STRONG full round rail, if you can see yourself stepping over the rail while climbing. The "Foldaway" might work on any Ariel transom. Preferably with something above deck level to grab on to.
It is made of 1" tube - great! And is 15" wide.
Makes it easier to CRAWL up the device, because that's what we doing....
Looks like the rungs have a flattened top. Probably too narrow for my arch.
Has a curved bottom step, that isn't going to jab you when you are looking for it with your feet.
Foldaway folds into a neat very compact unit.
Now the thing is, of course, can be deployed in a confusing emergency situation? Important. Can you get to it from the water?
If it's a good ladder, it'll get used. And will become familiar.
I would not mount this off the side unless the stanchions on both sides were triangularly braced inboard. If I had the ladder mounted on the starboard side, I'd be sure to trip off the port.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
There are stainless tube telescoping ladders. I'm curious about their longevity stowed in their compact state. Windline makes them. Windline makes some substantial products - so they are worth looking at. The longest is a three stepper.
PlasTEAK Inc has ladders worth looking at also - including telescoping ones that are meant for powerboats but may be adaptable. Including an all stainless 4 stepper - $145! They have 5 and 6 step rope ladders with Plas-teak treads that have a grab hole in the center so you don't have to crush fingers. $60 and $70. Might be good to have one of these all plastic roll-ups aboard for insurance. Depending on how they attach the line to the treads, they should survive being stowed away.
Feed back from the gallery would be nice.
My Garelick aluminum ladder broke, after about only three years. This is the second one I had that failed. Piece of junk
I'm thinking of getting this stainless 5 step folding ladder.
http://divendog.com/Product.aspx?item=82&u=0
Available here
http://www.boatdepot.com/productdeta...-3-2-12-D-F-RM
Cheaper here, the part number is the same, but the picture and specs don't match
http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=196314F
Might be the same one West Marine is selling
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...31&classNum=32
In case someone is looking for a ladder.
Since we're also talking about self-rescue, you can use a loop of line alongside the boat to get back aboard.
The line wants to swing under the boat when you step on it, but you just kick your leg back away from the boat and boost yourself aboard.
Might be able to rig something up with a jib sheet in an emergency
Though I can no longer sail solo, I still am oncerned with someone getting back on board in the open water. I carry a gunwale mounted aluminum boarding ladder which I can use for intentional swimming (not falling overboard. I also carry a web ladder in a bag mounted to the life lines (the lifelines run from the bow plate to theend of the gunwale at the stern. The bag containing the web boarding ladder falls about where the winch mount is. I try to get it as far astern as possible to keep the ladder from swinging under the boat as little as possible. Neither the web ladder or the swim ladder has any value if the boat is under way. The unanswered trick is how do I control the direction of the boat/speed if overboard -particularly since I use an autohelm) I don't know. I do relay on a handheld portable VHF to call for a maydayand rely on a tether to keep me connected to the boat. I also carry a block and tackle that can be connected by a crew member between the D ring on my pdf and a horseshoe ring on the boom with alocking cam cleat to haul me out of the water without the use of a ladder, if necessary. The horseshoe ring also serces to hold one end of my preventer. I guess the preventer could also be used as a hoisting mechanism.
I also carried on my pfd about 50 ft of llight line that line that I could have used to hold me to the boat as I released one end of my tether and slid back to the dingy. I could have easily started to climb aboard the dingy even though that endeavor would have sunk it. A dingy full of water is too much for the Ariel to carry as a load. The Ariel would have likely stopped and mostlikely have then come upwind luffing as well. That done, Once on top of the dinghy,I could have inched forward along the dingy gunwales and boarded the Ariel. Not elegant but doable in my better years. The bottom line in any case is that a man overboard is a mayday sitution (forget your pride in favor of saving life and call for help). Fortunately, in my better years, I never experienced an involuntarily MOB so the routine was only tested under benign sea conditions. I did try the web ladder in rough conditions and getting up again was tough and questionable whether a weaker/tired/cold individual could succeed.
I hope that you all won't mind if I reopen this thread for some information. Sirocco needs a boarding ladder and after reading and researching I'm beginning to think of ordering one from Mystic Stainless. I'm never certain of the integrity of mounting from the stern/transom and it seems like a headache for an old chub like myself to come aboard through an encircling push pit so I've been considering Mystic's foldup that fits on a genoa track that would mount along the beam in the vicinity of the cockpit.
Has anyone ever done that and what are your thoughts on it? Thanks, jon
:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek:
The Mystic Stainless Boarding Ladder is the RollsRoyce of side mount folding ladders.
They are meant to be used with reinforced lifeline stanchions.
A 6 footer (we need at least two rungs in the water to get a leg up) is $788,
no amenities included like rung liners and connectors.
The Foldaway may also have a weight issue and a stowage problem if you want to take it off.
But that imco defeats its real use which is MOB rescue. Should always be instantly available.
There is a Markus LifeNet that can be pulled from its cover with a tether by a m o b.
Have not researched this one. Not a very informative site for me.
It's a good thought to have a rope net with all kinds of hand holds and many spaces to shoove in a foot for climbing back on board. They have one that seems too small and a four foot long one that looks like the right idea to me
BUT it's marketed for rescue and as a injury litter. Has floats in neon red and probably has a stiff pricetag.
I think that for us we just want to get reattached to the boat.
Anybody who has seen WWII navy footage remembers men scrambling up and down huge 'cargo' nets drapped on the sides of ships. I know I always thought hell I could do THAT.
SO maybe this is the time for a Hervey Garrett Smith inspired rope net or nylon webbing that could be bundled up neatly, pulled open easily from the water - and from the deck - and used casually as needed and specifically as a safety for a surprised, sputtering, upset senior.
It's a different concept to have a bunch of material to grab, get an arm in, get a leg wrapped around.
Than a hoity-toity 316 folding ladder that'll disappear from your boat when you're not looking.:eek:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
Way later edit:
CommanderPete at post 37 gives us the only source I've seen where a longer (5 and 6 step) TELESCOPING ladder can be found. Dive N Dog is an interesting site. Haven't spent time there to form an opinion. They sell a host of ladder stuff. I'm guessing it comes from the orient. A long and wide telescoper with triple wall tube ('Prestige' model, which I would go for) will be pretty heavy. The vendor is in Florida, so shipping and maybe having to return the purchase is a real consideration. The stainless used MUST be 316 for all parts.
Anybody looking into DiveNDog????
Your comment on the Mystic is right....it is a Cadillac or a Rolls, depending on how deep you wanna dig for dough but the tag end of your comment is hilarious and oh, so true. I've ordered a ladder....I can't recall the name right now, that telescopes and mounts by fitting into a pair of brackets that are mounted inboard from the rubrail and on the decking. Should handle a sputtering senior or my XO, which ever of us falls overboard first. Pictures will follow when I return from the Gulf.
We gotta see how the telescoper turned out (or is it 'pulled down'?) on yor boat.
And your thoughts on how the design works
Ebb, It's so hot in Oklahoma I haven't been out, but I did meet with the Rapid Response Team at my marina on Saturday to discuss placement of the ladder mounts and a new set of jib tracks and blocks that I picked up last week. The ladder looks heavy duty and sturdy but that's an educated best guess and the RRT says that everything should be installed by midweek. Based upon prior experience with the RRT though I anticipate it all coming together in 2-3 weeks, but they might surprise me. I will certainly post some pictures and give a report when the water stops boiling and I can try her out. I sure am enjoying those hatch boards that you sent. Is there anything at all that I can do to return the favor?
Somebody has mentioned it.
Ariels and Commanders probably all have an OB or an inboard.
The issue is: Don't think of mounting the boarding ladder on the stern!
At least don't end there with your thinking.
It'll never happen. But there will come a time when a leg or foot will get chewed up by a propeller.
Of course it won't happen when you're in control.
Tell yourself you're always in charge
and put your soft, or hard, boarding ladder where Scott has it, at the forward end of the cockpit.
Reread Ed's and Bill's original posts here, #9, #10.
A strong stanchion, or two, some kind of strong point always there, a handle above the coaming, will enable the person climbing aboard to haul herself onto the deck.
Ed says, do a MOB practice EVERY SEASON. Practice using the ladder as a safety device. But also to get out of the water.
Make it something you are very familiar with.
On a calm sunny Sunday morning. In the cold dark dead of night.:eek:
If you use an auto inflatable PFD as part of your regular sailing gear, simply
JUMP in with ALL your gear on. Shoes/boots, pants, jacket/parka, hat - EVERYTHING.
With that pfd bladder on your chest, inflated in your face.... see how you do....
Getting the ladder deployed , getting into the ladder, hauling yourslf up, grabbing whatever to get a leg on the boat, the whole 900 pounds.
Don't do it alone, you'll probably need help.
Then rearm the PFD with a new CO2 cylinder and seltzer pill. You should rearm the PFD EVERY SEASON, at least once a year.
Yourbody's life depends on it.
MUSTANG PFD RECALL
U.S.Coast Guard issued a recall (11/29/11) for some 22lb Mustang PFDs, look it up! They are MD2010 and MD2012 models that do not have next generation MIT logos on them. The CO2 bottles are not at fault, but the 'inflator assembly', something the factory has to test and fix. The Mustang site says there are no shipping costs there or back again.
It also looks like Mustang was aware of the problem before the USCG got involved and BOTH initiated the recall.
I've been thinking for a while now where I will put my boarding ladder. I want a permanently mounted ladder that will allow access to the boat from the water even if it is not deployed prior to getting into the water. On my previous boat I had a line that secured the ladder in the up position that hung low enough that it could be reached from the water. By simply pulling on this line I was able to release the knot that secured it and also pull it down to board. I would like to do something similar on Destiny.
As the saying goes with real estate it's all about "location, location, location" and if I don't want to go on the stern (and I don't) I have very limited choices. I plan on installing a genoa track on the toe rail that goes from just behind the aft lower shroud back approx 9 feet. So this entire area is off limits. So my current thought on location is just forward of the lower forward shroud. As you climb aboard you have the shroud to hang onto to assist in boarding. And on my boat once you get up a ways you will be able to reach my extra long handrail to step aboard.I plan to install a ring in the shroud that the line securing the ladder will be tied to.
So do any of you see any problems with this location that I am not seeing? Or have suggestions for other options?
Jerry,
and others on board with this problem.....there is a great discussion on the thread >Jib Track Placement< which serves to remind us of other stuff like sheet leads, and even track placement, that need to be considered for actual sailing.
One I remembered, when you suggest the MOB ladder HAS to be placed somewhere, somehow
at the shrouds. (where else?) ....on the Ariel for sure the staysail sheet leads between the front and mid shrouds to the cockpit. So there is sheet lead IN the shrouds as well to consider.
On the Jib Track Placement thread, whether track is put on top of the toerail or beside it is also discussed.
The genoa track essentially extends from the aft shrouds back to the sheet winches.
If we are persuaded that placing the boarding ladder on the sides of the boat, that real estate, as you point out, is pretty well spoken for. A pretty crowded street! Even a roll-up attached to the outside of the toerail might get in the way.
The shrouds with some thought could be useful for the grab and haul out feature needed to get the human frame out of the water. This location could be used for casual and MOB use with some clever thinking. Don't want to down play the safety side of this, imco, getting back on board the boat from the water in all conditions is vital. Sail handling equally so.
If the forward and aft shrouds went to the masthead and the center shroud to the spreaders, the upgrade would be a piece of cake.
Slightly taller chafe rollers on all six shrouds might be acceptable AND add some meat to get fingers around, 3/16"/1/4" wire isn't grabbable really, the chafe tubes might be the answer.
Having a fold down tube ladder might also be aestheically OK resting in the shrouds. At the moment I can't 'see' how it's rigged. There are usually no stanchions nearby to lash the fold-down ladder to.
Not so much to lash it but provide a two point aspect to protect it from lines and feet traffic.
At least a formal hard ladder is something to aim for.
If you are installing lifelines, and they become visually part of your presentation, that eye line might make it OK to install extra stanchions just inside of the foward shroud and the after shroud. They might, maybe by also using the mid-shroud as a sort of brace point, be used to mount a strong folding tube ladder. It'll be a busy bunch of stuff, especially on a Commander. And how elaborate and easy to use depends on the ages of your crew. This idea can be developed whether you have lifelines or not, as the extra stanchions would be dedicated only to mount the ladder. Ladders? arguement for both sides?
I'm just BSing here. Could see if the ladder as a unit could be slid onto the two bare stanchions and somehow stabilized if needed with the center shroud. Could be strong and offset outboard weight lever. Just thinking that if the safety ladder could easily be put on and taken off it would more likely be used when a special occasion needed it. It might just be too buzy for some to always have it there when sailing - but nice when needed.
I'm also putting genoa track on. Not sure if I'm there yet with the ladder gear idea, but it may become the only way to do it. A roll ladder is still viable, more compact and lighter. I think here I half joked that a modified cargo net rolldown would be more suited for an old gent because it would have a hundred and twenty grab and foot holds of life-saving entanglements. I imagined a GI version of Scott's rollup ladder of at least 4' long, and maybe 8' in length unrolled!
Need a long ladder. If the boat is moving, and I"m grabbing, my weight will be pulled sideways and my bulk could very easily wrench a long stainless tube ladder into a difficult to repair pretzel.
Would also mess with the expensive paint job.
How are you going to solve the quandary???
You know Ebb I was thinking about my previous post after I posted it and it occured to me that putting the ladder forward of the forward lower shroud would not be a good idea. It would constantly snag the genoa lines and be a real Pita. And I will not have life lines on Destiny so no stantions to mount to.
Your suggestion of tucking the ladder between shrouds currently seems like the only real solution. That would allow the shrouds to keep the lines from snagging the ladder. And if you used a telescoping ladder similar to the first link below it might not look tooooo ugly sitting there. It could be a little awkward coming aboard because the shrouds are so close together. You may need to swing around either forward or aft to board outside of the shrouds.
http://www.meijer.com/s/seasense-tel...der/_/R-192348
Some other ladder sites I've looked at.
http://www.up-n-out.com/boat-ladders/
http://www.boatdepot.com/productdeta...part=SS-008710
http://www.aquaperformance.com/
http://myboatsgear.com/mbg/product.asp?prodID=1040
I think the inconvenience of the rigging in your face coming aboard from the ladder
will be offset by the relief of getting there.
There's a couple of stages. You have to do at least a preliminary mock up
to see if you can stand how it looks, or excuse its looks because it's absolutely necessary.
The Mystic Foldaway is probably one you assume will work as designed.
It most certainly is the heaviest, most substantial, and most expensive.
You may have to choose that one because it's the only one that'll be anywhere near complimentary with your work!
I don't know how a vertical fold-up could work without adding the extra stanchions to mount it on. Free-standing - no wire.
The stanchions lining up with the orginal chainplates might put the foldaway inside the beam of the boat. Great for coming along side. Mystic website shows the ladder attached to the genoa track. Extra $$ for the track clips, 316, heavy wall 1"D tube, That's the right stuff - weight unknown. But it's also a lot of shiney metal! There may be other attachment options.
Only when deployed would it be extended over the topsides. Because the Mystic folds hingelike it would be easier to mount then a telescoper which pulls straight down and would need to be mounted outsde the boat's beam. The telescoping Seasense is 18-8 or 304 and surely will rust immediately. China. I'd hold out for a real one, but the design is bad for any stainless.
Though it also - with a custom bracket - could be designed to swing down from vertical hinged on the toerail and then detelescoped from the water to deploy. A four stepper might be all you need to get near two steps in the water. 50#! Cheap.
If you find something that looks OK and fits, the other stuff comes natural, maybe track or a rail to grab on the cabin roof will be the all important third handhold to get safely aboard.
Somebody else has to chime in and suggest using the bow to get onboard!
But until then, Jerry, this Ariel owner thinks you have the best and safest location for lit'lgull MOB ladder(s). Mounting a ladder on the stern means only one, so sides logically requires two. Remember, you'll need it on the side that doesn't have it!
I really like the ingenious UP-N-OUT bent rod ladder. A 316 5 stepper is about half the price of a Mystic 5 step, rod is not hollow but wouldn't surprise me if it was half the weight. Unknown. Still pricey, free shipping, which is a huge cost addon these days.
When I met Dave the UP-N-OUT inventor at the boat show he was a mom-n-pop. Maybe he still actually makes them, as back then. The ladder is customed to the boat, indeed to the spot on the boat you have for it. You'll like the ladder, but may need to see it befor you buy. It definitely stacks different. Don't think it can be mounted in the rigging. Might have a nylon or sunbrella case made for it, open on the bottom from whence it deploys, that would keep lines out it, make it more neat & anonymous or more acceptable like the life ring, or sail bag, or fenders.......and have its own spot just forward or aft of the shrouds. Or:eek:mounted on the cabin side. Ariel couldn't do it but maybe Commander could!
(Think I'll wait for the in the water boat show here in April, check to see if he has a booth, and go with options, measurements and questions to see where the bundle will fit.) This up-n-go has all the ear marks for being a rugged, maintenance-free piece of cruising gear - looks righton to me.
imco it will quickly become accepted as one of the crew!
If we have a slip in a marina, or anywhere for that matter, and if the ladder is permanently installed - it will get stolen, no ifs.
SO if the ladder is easy to remove (like slipping over two permanent stanchions) it will be unslipped and stored below when nobody's aboard.
Really interested to see what you come up with.
Hello! Boarding ladders are not an optional piece of gear to be stored in a locker, in my opinion. This is especially true if you do any single handing, even for an hour sail in good weather.
They need to be deployable from the water, and ready at a moment's notice. I have mounted a 4-step telescoping ss ladder on the deck at the transom that straddles the backstay. When sailing, it is in the "stowed" position, vertical, resting against the backstay (not secured!). It is stable there in any weather because it is "over center". I tie a length of light line to the bottom rung..and the line has a practice golf ball on the end that dangles a few inches above the water over the transom. If you stumble overboard, you can swim to the transom and give the golf ball a yank...down comes the ladder.
The companion gear that makes it foolproof is a lifeline running fore and aft in the cockpit 6 " above the cockpit floor, and secured at both ends by a bow eye attached to the bridgedeck bulkhead and the aft cockpit bulkhead. Clip your harness onto that lifeline and you can move forward past the mast (I have a roller furling jib), down below for a cold one, on the afterdeck, etc. If you go over, even with the autopilot humming and you're going 5 knots...the boat passes you by and the tether swings you back right behind the transom....where the ladder is. It works, I've used it underway, and fortunately it was there. The biggest problem I experienced was moving around with my inflated inflatable. I'll try to post pics.
...and I don't have lifelines or pulpits. They're for sale.
I'm new here and I'll figure out how to post pics soon...but there are some here...the last ones are of the boarding ladder http://www.facebook.com/bill.mcgraw1?sk=photos
I't pretty easy to mount but it will require backing blocks underneath the deck and some fitted blocks for the forward bolt on each side as the ladder mounting plates are longer than the elevated portion of the afterdeck. It does not interfere with the lazerett function. Note the ball at the end of the line near the water....
This ladder is exceedingly stiff in use and it's heavily built. It requires no attachment to or brace against the transom itself but relies on the considerable deck rigidity at the toerail and the beefy brackets. We used it all last summer while swimming (I'm 225lbs) and once when we really had to. It works well.
I like the way it does not rest against the transom and scratch it up. It is one of the ladders I looked at but it was only rated at 200 Lbs. and I weigh 212. It is good to hear that it seems plenty strong even with it's rating.
My biggest problem with mounting a ladder on the transom is I did not want to cover any of it up and your solution appers to keep the transom clear. And the back stay gives you something to hold onto when climbing aboard. Thanks for posting the pictures it certainly gives me something to think about.
The way Ebb has done his outboard on his boat this solution would not work for him. But Destiny will have an inboard electric drive and a prop in the aperature at the end of the keel. Quite a bit further away than an outboard prop would be. Hmmmm....
Jerry,
The line running the length of the cockpit is crucial to the function of the ladder as a "rescue' device. Without the tether to pull you next to the ladder, you won't catch it if you're underway.
The line is fore and aft, about 8 inches from the cockpit floor and about 3 inces from one side or the other. I use a line about the size of a dockline for the boat, pulled tight with a trucker's hitch on one end and an spliced eye on the other. It doesn't get in the way when you're sailing and it seems you never know it's there in good weather.
I also added full length cabintop handrails, replacing the short ones that were original. I don't have lifelines forward so the handrails are welcomed and don't seem obtrusive to my eye.
The original lifelines, forward, terminated at pad eyes on the deck about 30% of the way forward from the fwd lowers to the bow pulpit....meaning that you don't have lifelines forward as a practical matter, even with the boat equipped with them. This free space over the toe rail is so that the genoa can clear the foredeck when tacking.
was going to have handrails full length of the cabin top!! I built these a while back.
Really nice job on the handrails, Jerry! They look easy to make...but it's not at all easy to get them right! and you did. I admit to buying them because I made them once for my Tartan 27.
In this picture, you can see the forward termination of the safety line in the cockpit near the bottom right of the photo. It's like a dog run.... Clip-in with your 6 ft. tether, and you can roam from the mast to the transom, and down below...while the shackle slides fore and aft along the 9 ft cockpit.
I've spent weeks at a time clipped into this type of arrangement in open ocean transits in all kinds of weather and you get accustomed to it; it becomes effortless. It's especially nice in the Commander cockpit...long, unobstructed, and on a small boat. Cheap and easy to install.
Turned out...the lifeline is in the "top, right"...you get the idea!
Full and By
Thanks for the compliment on the handrails. They did take some time to build and get right. I guess part of what I like about the process of restoring my commander is that it forces me to stretch my woodworking abilities in ways I have not previously worked.
Your Jackline is a really good idea, and in a good location, especially on those days that are rougher than we anticipated. I will set one up and when things get harry I will use it. And on those days it would be good to have a second line that you could clip to and go all the way to the bow. It would be easy to set up on our commanders.
For Destiny (my commander) I am deleting the life lines. I plan to leave the bow pulpit but am undecided on the stern pulpit. I want to come up with a good way to support the mast durning transit so I can eliminate it but as of yet have not.
And that brings me to your ladder solution. I have always been and will always will be a function before form type person. But after function is accomplished I try to make form work also. And while all of the function requirements are met with your ladder solution the form portion of the equation is not there for me yet. If I decide on a stern pulpit to help support the mast during transit the ladder will blend in and not be an issue. If not I need to come up with another solution to my delema.
Jerry...here's the form aspect.....
Full and By
You do have a good looking commander. And you sail her on some pretty big water (Lake Erie) which these boats seem to thrive in.
Have you noticed how some women appeal to some men but not to you? For me it's the same thing with boats. You and I have similar taste in that we both like commanders. But no matter how small the ladder folds up it just seems out of place sitting there all by itself to me. This might be the reason that pushes me to install the stern pulpit on Destiny. But that is also overly large and does not seem right to me. So maybe my local metal shop will get another order from me on a modified stern pulpit that will be as minimalistic as possible and still serve the function of mast support and ladder camouflage so I can get the benefits of the function of your ladder setup.
After a 2.5 year sleep, here is a new to me Icelandic BOARDING ladder. One way UP only.
Imco emergency ladders shouldn't be confused with the swim ladder. Or be considered interchangable.
Augustine's roll-up boarding ladder is, imco, mandatory safety equipment.
►You can buy a basic SeaDog Emergency Ladder 5 stepper for $35. It is a clever rope and step contraption that folds compactly into hollow half-round plastic rungs and has pvc pipe wrapped rope sides to grap onto - rather than skinny rope. It hangs from a single point, and because of that will be unstable to climb. Comes in a cover bag and has a loop to grab from the water.
►Another 5-stepper is Plastimo Emergency Ladder. Basically the same design but made with webbing, hangs from a single loop (but looks like it can be altered to two points for more stability) You will use the steps to grab for ascending. $119.
►Third one is the Wichard Emergency Ladder, based on rock climbing's Etrier all web stuffer. The 'rungs' are double layer stiffened nylon web. Attached to the boat with a single loop (to a stanchion, pad eye or cleat), with a glow in the dark loop to pull it out of the stuff bag. $130.
The 2nd picture accompaning the description shows a 20 year old buzzcut in a PFD holding the device tightly to his chest with his left arm, his right grasping the toerail of a yacht about midships, his lower body in the water but obviously slung under the hull, with his cheek jammed against the topside's awlgrip. Looks like he's really gasping. Only the French can have an ad like this! Only 5'5" long. [see next post]
There's no single shot of this webbing ladder deployed to show why we should buy the thing. That may be deliberate. Can imagine one problem is that only one foot can go to any one rung at a time. So a body can't rest momentarily*, as we may have to, while investigating the next move. Only buff Navy Seals can haul themselves up... maybe - not scared-to-hell old guys flailing around trying to figure out why their left leg isn't working.
*Body 'rests' when legs and feet share equal weight...important for non-athlectic people.
►Here's a possible better choice. MARKUS RESCUE SYSTEMS*. (We find out what Lifenets, mesh scramble nets, rescue cradles are all about.)
Check out their MOB Emergency and Rescue Ladder, MEL-2-270. (Don't have the price yet.)
It is a three point attachment ladder with three vertical 'rails' - horizontal 'rungs' separarted with a central 'rail' - which are all webbing. It's a 2step-wide scramble net that is deployed from a L19"x8"x2" white pvc storage bag. Weight, a little over 2lbs.
Have not seen this product first hand, But do seem to be tuned into how these people are thinking.
Even a floppy web-tape ladder with 3-point attachment is probably way more stable to climb than a single point hanging attachment.
Don't care what rock climbers use.
Once the feet are engaged in the 'mesh' the climber's weight is supported evenly while scrambling, even though the webbing may close around the foot, body weight is distributed evenly. Only guessing. Hopefully, testing will be infrequent.
But it will be good to know if this product really is a dependable life saver. Other emergency ladders I'd be in trouble with...in an emergency.
Markus also has readymade a MOB FRC Rescue-net. (look at fact sheet for the SCN6-250R, it's a 6step wide climbing net made with 1" webbing)
It is L51"x10'x2". Do not know if that is its storage bag dimensions. Imco a 4step wide would be great. See them in some of their SOLAS fotos.
A thought for another kind of dual use boarding ladder.
I have one of those innovative UP-N-OUT rod telescopers. Can be used as an emergency rescue ladder. Requires its own permanent allotment of deck space. And probably would be stowed below when offshore.
I like its open design, incredible cold hard strength, yet yielding with its interlocking pieces, seems like it can't get yanked out of shapel with an off-balance lurch like a set of tube steps might. Acceptable weight, not cataloged by WM...yea!
Markus, as you see, has this scramble net on steroids called Jason's Cradle. [see next post]
Looks like stiffened cargo netting that could be an alternative to shiney tube or rod swim ladders for getting on & off the deck.
Don't know yet what the webbing is stiffened with. Dipped in plastic or rubber?. I can see a ROLL of this net in the lifelines on A338.
Probably slung over a sausage of fenders to keep it off the hull paint.
JASON CRADLE
If this stuff takes a set from being rolled up, that might be useful when the material is pulled down into the water, giving it a tendency to curl away from the hull - rather than hanging limp. All verticals attached to a bar and to the toe rail. Assume, the net will stay relatively docile, easy to climb.... rather than flop and fly around in wind and wave. If the boat is drifting at all and the victim is on the more quiet leeward side, an ordinary emergency ladder will be swept under the turn of the hull - as will the person. A stiff rescue net (multistep ladder) might make a possible to climb back on board with ease. Dual use, general swim ladder as well. This item doesn't exist yet, I'd like two 4step wide ones, please. [maybe it does, see next post]
I will find out what their MOB Emergency and Rescue Ladder goes for. Want one for either side of LittleGull just aft of the shrouds.....
*http:http://www.seamarshall-us.com/mariti...mble-nets.html
(this vendor shows the Jason net material as Jason's Cradle. They seem to think it should be used only for rolling bodies! aboard!
See YouTubes on site - one is pretty wierd!)
Sorry, I'm unable to put a picture here. It is worth it to see this ladder.
Type the above post title into google for a short YouTube intro. Smart design.
MARKUS MOB Emergency and Rescue Ladder - MEL-B2-175
The ladder mesh is made with 1" polyester webbing. Weighs 2lbs2oz. Breaking strength over 1,750lbs.
Ladder is 16" wide, making the width about 6" inside the two step wide mesh.
Plastic 'rodes' (stiffeners) in the horizontals, and an aluminum bar across the top distributes the load to 3points as buckle fasteners.
Total length 6'5" (77"). There are 5 steps. Length to the bottom step where the pulldown handle hangs: 69". MEL-B2-175* is actually recommended for a boat with 31" freeboard on the Markus home site, Iceland.
Ariel freeboard amidships measures 30-31" - off Alberg's lines drawing in the Manual.
Theoretically, on a calm day, 36" of the ladder is below water - 3 steps plus the 'lead weighted handle". $151.
HOWEVER,
in the personal message portion of an email from seamarshall-us.com, my contact, Michael adds: "Please ensure that the net be at least 1.5 to 2 meters longer than the freeboard." So that's 1 3/4 meters, correct? {One meter = 39.37". 1.5 meters = 59". Two meters = 78.74".
:)Half the distance between 1.5 and 2 meters: 19.69 x ½ = 9.8". Add 9.8" to 59" = 69". Add the Ariel freeboard: 31" and the 1.5to2 meter calculation = 100". 100" = 8'4'. Next catalog size ladder, MEL B2-220** is 88.6"long, about 7'4' (actually, Michael's minimum recommendation of 1.5 meters.) That's almost 5' of ladder in the water. Seems good.}
CONTRAST the 3' length of underwater net recommended from the Markus, Iceland site.... with the counsel from SeaMarshall of at least 5'. $174. (X 2)
Storage cover is PVC/Polyester fabric. 20"x8"x2" (Lloyd's Register/SOLAS, ICELAND)
http://www.seamarshall-us.com/ 1-772-388-1326.
*MEL-B2-175 is also listed as 1 310 170W.
**MEL-B2-220 is also known as 1 310 220W in the seamarshall catalog.
Markus makes 3 - 4 - 5 step wide emergency scramble web-nets for yachts. Imco wider webbing will ensure emerging from a sudden dump more dignified... than hunting with boots on for loops in a too narrow web.
This piece of gear has only one job to do: get a climber back on the boat. One inch webbing is not substantial material altho it's strong and adequate, depending on how it's made. I'd like to see a ladder like this of 1¼" tube webbing - a little more druthers to grab onto. More weight, more expense, larger package, and imco much easier to climb.
► A MOB emergency ladder is important safety gear. May never be used, but when it is, must do important work. Rather than trust SeaDog, Plastimo, Wichard niche-filling safety ladder products of inappropriated design & unknown quality....imco, it's wiser to consider a perhaps unknown but longtime manufacturer of professional safety products. It's not an anonymous off the shelf leisure product we want, but confidence, that even after some forgotten time past warranty..... it'll still be all there when we pull the handle!◄
Enthusiasm is no guarantee that these ladders perform as expected - caveat emptor - check out the product yourself. Seamarshall site is a gas!
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................
JASON'S CRADLE
stiff mesh ladder is NOT rubber dipped webbing, as I guessed wrong - it is a whole other kettle of fish. Made by a different company in UK.
SeaMarshall has a separate page for this product. It's made with small frame-like acetal and polyethylene 'tile' pieces, linked together with 316ss fasteners. Like a piece of a plastic conveyor-belt. Infact the videos demonstrate a host of bodies being rolled up the sides of Homeland Security RIB's in practice recovery. Looks easy, rolling passive victims out of the drink, but seems rather bizarre... almost crude.
AS A CLIMBING LADDER
Here is an amazing UNIQUE readymade candidate for a semi-permanent (removable) roll-up ship's ladder....
On the J.C. page find the tech SPEC SHEET for the 1MC-JCFCR003. Jason's Cradle FRC Kit.* The 3 refers to the number of step spaces across the 'mesh' (this piece of gear is in no way a net). http://seamarshall-us.com/JasonsCradleLib11321010071
This particular articulated belt is a tidy 21" wide and about 80" long. Weighs 26.5lbs - and rolls up into a 14" diameter bundle.
Data sheet shows a 'quick release' orange case can be had for it. "..SOLAS approved..quaranteed against defects for 3yrs....useful service life well in excess of 10yrs."
*FRC = Fast Rescue Craft = high powered rigid inflatable boat = RIB
http://www.jasoncradle.co.uk/ [no idea why this doesn't work. There are a number of Factsheets that have good close-ups of the Cradle]
Have no idea what they get for this two meter long wonder. Delrin is expensive. Needs protection from UV.
This is military gear, but thinking of it as an alternative for stainless tube, guess initial cost may be about equal¿ Take the place of the same-old same-old stainless tube ladders everybody hates. Whether JasonCradle can be taken out of the emergency sphere and used as a 'Jason Ladder' aboard a sailboat... will take more than a conversation with a salesman. Somebody has to try it and test it out. The company is well aware of the 'leisure' market, but seems fixated on the MOB body-roll recovery aspect: see Factsheet JC200] It's a winner, if they market it correctly.
Can be stowed below, hangs straight in the water, use it drapped on your airboat dinghy (w/ added glue-on D-rings). Portable: set it up anywhere on the Ariel as the boarding and debarking ladder - when afloat or on hard. Won't mount it off the stern, but imco it'd be perfect at the cockpit coamings.
"Tensile tested in excess of one metric tonne (2,205lbs)" (Lloyd's Register/SOLAS, UK)
{later EDIT: Jason'sCradleFRCKit (1'9" W x 79" L) $2400:mad:)
you almost saw it here first.:cool:
'These products are worthy of further enquiry.' I said that. Can find no forum discussions.
Both these ladders hanging from the toerail will be too close to the hull. However, slung over a 6"D foam-filled fender might be the way to get hand and foot hold away from the hull.