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I have just purchased a Cmdr with no trailer. The boat is in the water at a mooring. I will be using a Catalina-27 trailer to pull the boat but have no idea on how to adjust the supports. How should the bolster pads be positioned for a Cmdr? Does anyoue have a picture of a trailer or some cursory diminsions I could use? Any info would be appreciated.
Wait to posistion the pads when the crane lifts the boat onto the trailer . The Catalina is a fin keel and the Commander is a full keel .
While the crane hold the boat upright , just slide the pads up to meet the bottom .
I hope you have a 4 wheel trailer with brakes , you need it .
When I got my Ariel it was on a wooden cradle sitting atop a makeshift trailer. The trailer appears to have been a mobile home frame or trailer for moving modular homes. It's double axel and has been modified a bit. I'll try for some pictures this weekend.
I want to get rid of the cradle and weld supports directly onto the trailer frame. This will lower the boat almost 12" . I don't have trailer brakes......but then I can launch it at the end of my driveway (almost). With a tidal range of 18 to 26 feet I can get away without a lift. I think Mike's advice is right on to fit things using the lift and go from there.
You will note that he is in Oklahoma , not much tide range there .
I have seen a new , 1998 , Ford F-250 4wd , pulled backward when trying to ramp launch a 6000lb ( combined trailer and boat ) load on a steep, wet ramp . It stopped when there was about 2.5 feet of water in the cab .
The draft of the Pearson will require the trailer to be near 6 feet under water before she floats .
Draw that out to keep the truck wheels out of the water and you have a tongue length on the trailer of near 25' ( unless of course you can roll it down at low tide , un-hitch , move vehicle beyond tide line and wait for boat to float off )
Not many places in the US where that can happen .
You are lucky in Maine to do this , but luck has it's downside , your summer is only a week long .;>)
Mike,
Ah yes the summer is brief....but we do have three seasons.
JULY, AUGUST and WINTA !
With any luck I'll get to sail in part of all three. I'm already behind in getting launched and then I have to learn to sail and then...
:rolleyes:
It could be worse, A friend of mine lives in Nova Scotia , went to Toronto for 2 weeks in July and missed summer all together .
I'm way behind on getting #45 commissioned , bad weather and making a living get in the way .
Picking up my new Nissan 4 stroke 6hp today ,actually picking up 2 , one is for Commander 105 who lives down the street .
We are going to do some prop testing , 8" vs 7" , 8" vs 6" and 7" vs 6" . My mechanic says the 6" will be the winner . I think he is right .
Mike G
I have a trailer for the Ariel. I tried to get a picture out but it did not take. I can send you a picture by email if you would like.
The trailer is 20 feet long, and the bed is 4 1/2 feet wide . Overall, the outside of the wheels make it 7 feet wide. The Ariel extends 7 feet aft of the end of the trailer
The trailer has two sets of wheels, the forward set being almost directly under the center of gravity of the boat (where the keel starts heading up.
There are six posts, three on each side.
The first is 9" from the back and the post extends about about 43" above the keel bottom.
The second is about 73" from the aft end of the trailer and about 31" off the keel bottom.
The forward most set are 117" from the aft end and about 34" high.
Down the center of the trailor is a "U" beam, with a 2" X 6" wolmanized plank placed in the trough upon which the keel of the Ariel sits.
The posts are capped with a flat swivel plate with a wood pad that adjust to the countour of the hull. The post height is based on where the bolt holding those plates passes through the post.
If you don't already know about it, a company (Barnett is the name as I recall) makes screw type jacks that fit inside the post so that the height of the post can be screw adjusted. I do not have those yet but will be buying a set this summer.
Let me know if there are any other dimensions you need or clarification.
Peter Theis
Rudy:
The company that makes the screwjacks is Brownell
Boat Stands, 800 533-8433. I suspect they also have a web site.
I understand they "invernted"/brought the things to market.
The screws are 1 7/16" diameter, and come in three lengths, 16" ($11.50), 22 1/2" ($20.50) AND 27 1/2" ($20.50)
My recollection is that they are solid. I will be buying a set this summer.
Hope this does it for you.
Peter
Do those prices include the flange for the pad and the screw handle ?
Mike G
My understanding is that they include the screw handle, but not the pad. There is a real problem with the Ariel and commercial pads. The swivel on the pads, from ones I was shown a year ago, do not swivel enough to accomodate the deep hull design of the Ariel. Most boats today do not have bottoms that are angled 30 degrees and more.
My pads, as a result, I had to have made to order.
(Back to the shelter topic sans new thread)After digging around and much measuring and remeasuring I decided to scrap the 'erect a new structure' idea and try to squeeze 113 into a building allready on the property. This, of course, required about ten days of nonstop cleaning and reorganizing (or maybe just ORGANIZING!!!) to accomplish. Due to some incredibly warm temps recently-nearly 45 degrees-I could wait no more.
Yeah, that's my dad up there doing the dangerous stuff. We knew it would be close and yes the feat did involve letting the air out of the tires.
Snug as a bug in a rug-no dents dings or scratches! Now we can actually begin working, uh-when it warms up in four months.
Tony G-
How much did that fine looking trailer set you back?
and how did the bow pulpit fit under the garage door?
inquiring minds......
-km #3
Man.... what a tent! Some 4 foot shop lights, a radiant heater, 24 hour pizza delivery, and you'll be ready to relaunch her by spring thaw!
The hull looks really choice, smooth and crisp. Have you ever seen any boat look so good from every angle?
km#3 that fine looking trailer is a home made 'jobby'. We live in the Land of 10,000 Lakes but I couldn't find a trailer that was suitable as was or to rebuild. Looked and called around for months but ran out of time so we built one using measurments based off of the craddle she sat on 600 miles away. Gutsy, confident or just plain stupid! Guilty on all three I guess.
The plan was to just back right into the warehouse with inches to spare but what actually happened was...we backed up close enough for allignment then blocked the wheels, unhooked the trailer, flipped the reciever drop on the hitch upside-down, let the air out of the tires and hooked-up again to tuck the stern rail under the door. I knew the cabin top was about two inches lower than the stern rail/push pit and the bow pulpit so that would clear and once we got to the bow pulpit we just flipped the reciever drop right side up and continued back into place. Easy as pie! The original plan was to use some rims that were cut down to a smaller diameter yet large enough to protect the drums. However, it hasn't been cold enough here to keep the ground frozen solid and we would have just dug up our yard bad.
Ebb-permission? On Ebb's photo gallery?:confused:
Photos demonstrate how to launch a jetski from a trailer.
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/genera...ges/jetski.gif
Hey Tony - I don't suppose you have any plans or specs for that fine looking trailer...?
Mary
I think I do still have those original plans. being the High tech kind of guy that I am they are drawn to scale on christmas wrapping paper!! No kidding-it just happened to be the only thing we had on hand at the time that was large enough. I caught a lot flak from my dad and brother but in the end it worked good enough to put a license on it. If for some reason the state museum of science won't give up the plans, I could easily get the info you'd need to fab one yourself. And, as if that isn't torture enough, we snapped photos of the building process too!
Tony G
home-made?.....not in my home.....
are those torsional axles vice leaf-springs?
and how did you get the baked-on white enamel?
and i notice that your fine sailing vessel is registered in ILL, my homestate and current state of record.
you know, if i ever move back there, and want to take #3 with me, i might ask to rent that from you.... but that is years off (2.5+ to be exact)
-km#3
Due to funding cut-backs and lack of special interest group donations the State and National Historical Whatever has informed me that the drawings of 113's trailer are available. I'm going to attempt to copy them but I don't know how they'll turn out as some of the lines are a bit light. Hopefully they can adjust the machine to give a decent copy. I so, for a small fee to cover copying and shipping (no handling fees here folks) and a full compliance agreement to a non-negotiable waiver of liability, you too can own a piece of history complete with up dated notes of changes made by the builders. Act now!
Seriously, I'm going to make full sized copies available if anyone is interested. I'll need to get an idea of how many people want a copy. Also, I will send a small attachment with each set that explains any deviation from the plans we made and some things I might consider if I were to do it again. However, the fees for copying and shipping are real as my lovely fiancee has informed me that any cost incured for this does not come out of OUR checking account, instead comes out of my boat fund! Therefore, consider me chiseler extraordinair!:D
Hi Tony G.
Love to see your plans. Been thinking hard about a trailor to
maintain some boatyard independance. For some reason the pictures won't load
but from the sounds of it, the trailor and boat are a couple of beauties.
Keep me posted ,
Cheers B.
Commander #215
Tony,
Consider me a definite for a copy of those trailer plans and building information. Let us know how much and where to send it.
Thanks!
Tim Lackey
tlackey@triton381.com
Add another, Tony
Tony,
Is your offer still available...? Count me in too.
Russ
Commander, you have a great life, just out sailing around , picking up hot chicks, taking their pictures, surfing the web for interesting boat stuff...Sweet!!!
:D :D :DQuote:
Originally posted by commanderpete
Photos demonstrate how to launch a jetski from a trailer.
http://www.sailinganarchy.com/genera...ges/jetski.gif
The offer still stands. So far we're at six interested parties and I haven't forgotten. Work has really been busy since the first of the year and I'm not finding a slot to borrow time from. 'Been able to note a few things and snap a few photos and dig up some files but not get it all orchestrated into a coherent mess to send out! We hired some more help this morning so I'll get a break soon if they stick around. Seven days a week since October and I'm getting cranky and itchy:mad: Geoff and Ebb aren't looking so crazy after all!
Tony - Tony - Tony - I surely would like a set of those plans. What's the chances that you have a set I can purchase? thanks, mark
Mark
You're crazy! You can't trailer an Ariel! It'll never work out!:D Actually believe it not I just finished piecing together the first package this morn. Yes, nearly ten months later and only a week or two to go. I'll be contacting people as more copies are made and sending them out. Fair warning-it's not as pretty as those sailing mags we all subscribe to. But it's big!
Thanks Tony, I'd like a set of plans. Let me know the $'s and I'll send them along. Thanks Mark
This exchange took place on the Yahoo site and it appeares interesting enough to repost here.
>>>>>>
Hi, I'm a new member interested in Carl Alberg designs and would like as large a boat as I can safely trailer with a Tahoe or similar SUV. I noticed several pictures of Ariels on trailers on the web and the photo page of the group. Any advice on practicality of pulling an Ariel?
Thanks, Clay
>>>>>>
Mike Goodwin writes:
Pulling isn't the problem if your truck can tow #6000 (boat and trailer + extra gear), launching is the problem. You need a crane in most cases to get the boat off the trailer. Most ramps aren't steep enough to float the boat from the trailer, the wheels would be aprox. 5' underwater and even with a lowboy trailer they would be 4' under. To do it safely you would need a winch on the front bumper to keep the boat from pulling the vehicle into the water too . Around here they charge $100 to crane launch or retrieve a boat .
>>>>>>
Scott Wallace writes:
Check with high quality trailer designer and builder, Mike Otto, at TRIAD Trailers...He owns the company, founded by his father, who got blueprints of most of our old "Classic Plastics" from the manufacturers back in the 1960's and 1970's...they make tremendous trailers, well designed and well built. They also offer a launch package, that includes a metal ladder to reach the winch, an extension for the tongue, so that most launch ramps can launch boats like our old Pearson (Alberg designed) Electra, Vanguards, Tritons and Rhodes Rangers.
His shop is located in New Milford, Ct. and I drove there from Cincinnati, Ohio, a few years ago, picked up my new trailer, drove to Cleveland, Ohio, where the travel hoist loaded my boat, then to a smaller lake in South Central Ohio, where launching and retrieval were amazingly easy!
>>>>>>
Here is their contact info:
Triad Trailers Ltd
90 Danbury Rd # A
New Milford, CT 06776-3412
Phone: (860) 354-1146
http://www.triadtrailers.com/
Business Types: Trailers Boat, Trailers Equipment & Parts, Boat Dealers, etc.
Well, we know trailering Ariels and Commanders is relatively easy. Unfortunately, I don't have any personal experience 'launching' from a trailer:)
A few years back Yves Gelina (developer, builder, seller of the Cape Horn self-steering gear)was going to pull Jean Du Sud, his A30, around the Great Lakes area with a diesel powered Suburban. Our boats must weight in a little less than an A30.
Tony G
I build my self one and I actualy can launch from it but I do need a crane at the end of the season. If anyone want picture. It cost me about 2000 $ CDN to build it.
Andre Roberge
Andre,
A month off cruising?! Wouldn' that be nice... Of course we all want pictures of trailers, boats, equipment, whatever. I am curious though, why do you need a crane for the end of the season and not the begining?
Tony G
Hi folks, may purchase Ariel #286 or 386, (He said it is a 66 and the hull # is 285, I think that number would be #386)...anyway here is my question.
On my Oday 22 almost all of the weight when trailering goes on the keel, the sideboards are only there to support the hull side to side, there is very little weight on them. Is that the way you would also transport an Ariel?
Next question...is the keel bolted or it is similar to the Oday, there the lead is encased in the fiberglass?
Thanks in advance.
I am hoping to be an Ariel owner soon, if so will join your lively little crew!
Jack Hart
Hickory, NC
PS...Looking at the boat tomorrow!
A check of the Ariel brochure on the home page may answer some of your questions. Also, a search on the subject of trailers should be instructive.
Hi Bill no disrespect meant here. The brochure didn't help. As to trailers, I know all about them. The question is this; do you put most of the weight on the keel when transporting or a fraction of it?
And I still don't know if the keel is bolted on or if it one in which the lead is encapsulated in the fiberglass?
Thanks a ton!
Jack
Jack,
Directing you to the brochure was to show that the Ariel is a full keel design. The cross section drawing of the boat shows that the keel as a major component of the hull and indicates (rather poorly) the location of the encapsulated lead ballast. Photos of boats out of the water posted in the gallery forum are also illustrative.
The point of the trailer reference is to suggest a review of the discussions of how others have addressed similar questions. Again, there are photos of the boats on trailers.
As for the specific weight distribution question, the boat's weight rests on the keel in most cases, depending on whether the cradle design is yoke or shoal.
Thanks Bill, I appreciate that!
Hope you and yours are doing GREAT!
Happy fathers Day too.
Jack
Jack
If you are looking at trailers.. expect an ariel/commander to weigh in at 5200-5600 lbs.
There are some companies our there who build trailers of this type. Triad is one of them. The triad picture galley contains a picture of a Cape Dory 25D (same shape & weight, also by Carl Alberg).
http://www.triadtrailers.com/gallery.htm
There have been some other pictures posted showing ariels mounted on construction trailers using cradles to hold them upright.
good luck
bill@ariel231
... this posting is not THAT old :D
I am in need of a trailer for a Commander; If these drawings are still available, I would be grateful if I could get a copy.
Tony G - I have sent message... Please let me know
BTW; Great looking trailer - Thanks in advance.
Has anyone from the above postings built one of these?
I need ball park figures for good condition used trailors for these boats----as I have infact found excellent dry storage in perris valley where I can live on and work on my next ariel.its at the perris vally skydiving center where I am currently camped out.people have rv's here and boats up on blocks, and I have been informed by the management that fer' a mere hun'erd bux a month ------(well I would have to generate my own electricity(hence forth the oncoming diesel generator to power an electric outboard) thats rite folks dont touch that dial---fer a hunskerdabbadoodle per month----that aint even sneakin aboard-----and no harber patrol harralements.you can stay here too------theres jus'one 15000 foot above ground level predicament-----ya' gotta be a skydiver to live here.I have produced the necessary credentials to meet that requirement. :Dan' jus' soze ya kno---even tho' I have had a recurrance of thyroid cancer-----I have had no problem exiting aircraft at such aforementioned altitudes. plus---- I am infact back to work. within a few months----if all goes well----"starcrest recipient"
I was jus' lookin' at the fact sheet that was standard issue when these boats were originally sold----who knows what---about the optional "cradle" that was available at that time fer' $180.00----can they be reproduced---then put on a standard flat bed trailor??? :confused:
Easy to build in wood or steel .
Plans for the cradle are in the appendix to the manual.Quote:
Originally Posted by eric
Here is an example of 'what not to do'.
This is a cradle my buddy and I rigged up (of his design) to more Ariel #243
Using a U-haul car trailer.
(Do not try this at home, these people are trained professionals.) :D
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/a...achmentid=1413
but the trailer seems too light weight.the cradle appears easy to build.tell me more about the fasteners-----was it jus' plain'ole 3/8" allthread---what did it cost to build just the cradle---this seems like a good project before the purchase----is it jus' plainole' home depo' standard civilian issue fir wood-
Hey eric, I know you like sailboats and skydiving. But, its best to keep them seperate
Roll the video
http://www.fridaypage.com/images/fri...06_gravity.wmv
the computor at the "bombshelter bar and grill" here at the dz wont show the video.I will see it somewhere else.but I can just imagine----I am about 40-50 miles inland and I promise not to jump outta' any perfectly good botze. :D
most of that is parasailing.I am gunna' have my own landing area rite next to the boat.
How much will a trailer weight in for the Ariel?? I'm going to look at a 1968 tomorrow and hope to get it and plan to take it out of the water for hurricanes!!!! I lost my boat last year. OH...I have a Toyota Sequoia...I think it's rated at 6500lb...is that enough or not??
Thanks alot...
Harry
I came close in 2004.hurricane jean destroyed the marina but left me afloat amongst the debris feild.I ended up leaving florida as a result.I may begin construction of a cradle soon as I will be getting the plans from the appendix.once its on a flat bed utility trailor I will just have a tow truck bring it to where I am now.the monthly space rental is so low it matters not what the tow cost would be.depending on where its hauled out it will be between 60-120 miles one way. :cool:
I think you may be slightly over your 6500# rating closer to 7000# , My heavy duty 2 axle trailer weighs 1600# alone and it is only a 16' flat bed .
Save your transmission and hire a truck to tow it , not good to tow right at the maximum load or above for more than a few yards on flat ground.
I was towing a 22' tugboat ( I'm in the process of building ) thursday afternoon, about 12 miles with no trailer brakes. Got real hairy over 45mph and scared the crap outta my wife who was following in our Blazer .
In the picture is a 22' , 1000lb boat hull on a 1600lb trailer , all well below the rating for the van in front.
When your load equals or exceeds tow vehicle weight , the trailer can takeover and that's when you fishtail , jacknife and flip . The trailer starts to push the tow vehicle and can push your rear right on around . So if you haven't done heavy towing , don't . Hire it out to something heavy .
Thanks Guys..I was just dreaming about pulling it with my Sequoia. I will figure some other way to tow it. Well, I'm off to look at the 68 for sale!!!
Harry
I towed this 2600 lb Santana 22 and 900 lb trailer 450 miles from Vancouver , WA on June 3rd. My van was down, so rented a Ford pickup from Budget, total round trip cost with gas about $335. May seem a little pricey, but not bad to get almost 2 tons (add motor and loads of gear) 450 often mountainous (5000'+ in some cases) miles.(If one smokes in their truck, add $50). Doing in the rain and dark was no picnic!
Bunks and keel tray all nicely felt padded. This trailer has the optional extension tongue equal in length to the trailer + extra roller wheel for launching. The trailer with the extras on it list for over $5000. I got the trailer, boat, 6 bags of sails and a 7.5 Evinrude for $2400 + my transportation costs + $132 for new trailer tires I had put on before I started towing. Total cost for this gear new = about $40,000 per Santana site.
Lights tested negative before leaving. Someone had disconnected the ground wire. That fixed, all lit up fine.
One little oddity. The trailer was custom made for this model, and has surge brakes. Seller said they didn't work, certified by his mechanic. I wasn't concerned because this big Ford had lots of muscle. BUT, the surge brake sure worked/locked when I went to back the rig up my driveway. Seller hadn't mentioned that a lever on the side of tongue had to be thrown for backing.
Last detail: My driveway is gravel and canted downward toward the street. I blocked the wheels with 2 slanted chocks, but wasn't satisfied it might not slip when I bounced around working on her. I put a big cinder block in front of the port wheel chock, and drove railroad spikes againist the block into the old hardened driveway, and all holds well. Now to find time to work on her.
http://home.earthlink.net/~xroyal/pu...ml/Santana.jpg
Eric - drop me a line if you would like to take over my trailer in a month or two. Its a rust bucket and not CA registered but has been holding #400 up for many a year.
Doug
I sent you an email. I am at sc2rom@yahoo.com send your contact info.will be in the inland empire 7/10/06 eric
Has anyone welded stands to a trailer for their commander?
Any advise?
I know we need to have the stands at a 90 degree angle to hull.
We are thinking 4 stands and a bow support.
If we buy the tops only they are around 50 dollars. Haven't seen a source for used ones.
I'm wondering if we bought wedge stands like on ahoycaptain website if they would work to weld to the frame.
Thanks,
sugarmagnolia
Just as an option to finding a trailer and building a cradle, I have been getting some quotes on hauling a prospective purchase.
Anyone have any recent experience with boat transport by land? I got quotes of 6 and 4 bucks a mile thus far for the 300 mile journey. Respectfully told the shipper that for 6 bucks a mile I could build my own trailer and do it myself!
Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I thought I had read somewhere to expect about a buck a mile - maybe adjusted to 2 for current gas prices.
Hummm, another option is the 600 mile sail around the entirety of Michigan... That would be a heckuva shakedown cruise.
Thanks,
Kyle
(working hard at relenquishing my boatless-lurker status)
p.s. My MC Scow is for sale at
http://www.sailboatowners.com/classi...bd=trailerable . No reasonable offer refused!
Search on "transport" to find threads in which this was discussed. As I recall, there was a posting that reported lower mileage costs than your quotes, but maybe that was due to longer distances. :confused:
Home built solution
Years before I bought my Ariel, a good friend bought one (243). The boat was about 70 miles from his home, and needed enough work that it was going to have to live in his back yard for a while.
The solution we came up with, and executed, was to build a cradle out of 4x4's and 2x6's so that the foot print would perfectly align with a U-Haul tandem axle car trailer's skids.
Basically it is a large box with no top. There are two uprights on each side, and it was very heavily constructed. We fit the pads to the end of each arm and covered them with carpet. The marina held it on the lift for about 30 min while we fit the pads to the hull, and then set the boat into the cradle.
The only draw back to this arrangement was that the tow vehicle had to be pretty substantial. The trailer is 3400#, the cradle was at least 500#, and of course the boat is 5500-6000#. The trailer has surge brakes, so that is taken care of. My F-250 pulled it with no problem.
Of course this post is only intended to give ideas, I am not proposing that any sane person would ever try this. It worked for us though, and the boat has been sitting in that same cradle for several years.
Removing the cradle
We jacked up the cradle using bottle jacks placed between the skids. Then 1" pipes were placed under the skids and the cradle was lowered onto the pipe 'rollers'. The cradle was tied to a fence post, and the trailer was SLOWLY pulled forward and cinder blocks were placed under it as it hung off. Really no harder then setting up a trailer, or a mobile storage shed.
It sounds like a PITA, but it really was not too bad. The credit for the engineering goes to my buddy, the only problem we had in the move was when he pit a boring bit into his ankle. The cradle was quite overbuilt, and we took our time on the trip and unloading it so I really don't think it was overly dangerous.
.
The one quote we got before the move was over 2 grand, and we did it for about $250.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...1&d=1087963284
Thanks Craig. I've seen your creation before. If memory serves me, I think in your initial post you made yourself sound less cautious than in this one! Thanks for the clear directions. That may be the best option. Would love a recreation of Tony G's trailer, but that would likely exceed the price of my boat.
I have the 2x6-based cradle plans in the manual - I can make some modifications to fit the U-Haul. If your plans are on paper somewhere, more information is never (OK, let's say *generally* not) a bad thing. I am specifically interested in the pads which seem to be designed rotate and snuggle up to the hull.
Just checked the U-Haul site and the max capacity for their trailer is 4000lbs - my trip is 300 miles or so vs. your 70. Hummm. I'll look around for other vendors and post what I find.
Kyle
I paid $ 3500.00 to have Sirocco moved from Annapolis to Claremore Oklahoma by J. O. Hudson boat mover. Service was EXCELLENT!!
You speak the truth...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
from one of the shippers:"Kyle,four bucks a mile is high dollar but, most of your boat haulers dont like to do short 250 mile runs like this because it makes it very hard to make money in one day of loading and unloading. most all of our drivers average 800 miles per day on regular loads (long hauls) take that times 1.35 per mile they make and you have a daily average for a big rig in one day. hope this helps explan the four bucks per mile qoute. thanks."
A friend drove down from NC this week, towing the trailer for his Flicka. We spent the better part of the day yesterday trying many various methods not involving a helicopter to get 'Faith' out of the water and onto his trailer.
There is a really nice ramp where I keep my boat, used to be a seaplane ramp... goes WAY out into the water so there was no fear of driving off the end.
The Flicka draws 3'3" so the trailer was pretty close to set up (just extended the pads up a bit).
The trailer has an extend able tongue (8' or so), and the keel bed it pretty low. Even so, if I had backed the truck (84 F-250HD Diesel 4x4) any farther I would have had to replace the cd player in the dash! :D
I mounted a bow eye on Faith to be able to attach an anchor snubber to. This allows us to anchor with a very small swing circle (I think I posted it in another thread). It was a good place to attach the wench to. We pulled, and pulled, and wenched and backed in farther...
After 2 hours we had the first 3" of the keel (below the cut away) on the trailer. I think that both of us pretty much knew that things were not going to work out but since he had driven hundreds of miles to do this we kept trying things....
About the only thing that we did not try was to release the trailer and let it down the ramp on a chain. If we had it either would have worked or gotten hopelessly stuck part way up.
Maybe it would have worked with a steeper ramp, or a silly toungue extension (like 12-14') :eek:
Just a bit of added intel (or lack of) for the knowledge base. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Goodwin
Hi,
I asked my questions in a new post, and it should have been asked here.
This is my first post and I am the proud owner of an Ariel (#378). I am in the middle or about 2/3 of the way through a restoration project. Mostly I want to get it sail-able and slowly do a total remodel of the interior. My goal is to get it in the water this year. You may have read last fall about my trying to sell my boat on Craig's List. I was discouraged about how slow things were going so I thought I would sell it. A retired gentleman came over to look at it, he had built his own 35' sailboat from a kit. He thought the Ariel was a really nice well made boat and instead of buying it, he convinced me to keep it and get it in the water!
I have read a number of threads where people have discussed trailering Ariels. They didn't seem to go into detail on whether anyone has experience launching and retrieving an Ariel. My Ariel sits on a heavy duty homemade trailer that I am considering modifying to be able to launch on a ramp. These are the things I am considering doing to make launching possible:
*A channel to guide the keel into so as to keep it centered on the trailer.
*Bunk type boards to tie the six supports together to also help guide the boat on the trailer.
*A winch and support to hold the boat on the trailer when taking the boat out of the water.
* Either a tongue extension or the use of a chain to guide it in and out of the water.
My question? How deep a ramp do you think I will need to find?
Am I missing anything in my plan?
I appreciate you guys experience. I have cruised the web site often and have patterned my restoration on what I have learned from you guys and Lackey's excellent site.
Thanks for reading my wandering post,
Neil
I to plan to launch my commander from a trailer I had built. I should tell you that I have not done so yet because I am in the middle of a refit. However my trailer was built by the guys at Sail Trailer in Georgia and these guys launch and retrieve boats like ours all the time from the trailer they build. The things they suggested I do which I did to make the trailer work for ramp launching were as follows.
1.) I had a 20' tongue extension built. This extension has a small axle with two wheels and a ball hitch on one end and a coupler on the other. The axle and wheels keep the trailer tongue from dropping down when using the extension.
2.) In addition to the 6 adjustable pad supports that support the hull there is also located at the waterline a v-shaped support that keeps the boat from going too far forward and supports the bow.
3.) I have two keel guides that start up high on the aft most pad supports and slope down as they go forward to guide the keel onto the trailer.
4.) I had a combination adjustable mast support and winch support made that sits on the front of the trailer that has ladder rungs on it to get to the winch.
5.) I had skid brackets made that bolt to the bottom of the trailer frame and sit just in front of the forward axle. If the trailer falls off the end of the ramp these skid plates allow the trailer to be pulled back up onto the ramp without dislodging the axle.
6.) I had them use drop down axles that allowed the boat to sit closer to the pavement which would allow launching and retrieving in less water depth.
As far as water depth needed to launch and retrieve in I'm told it is best if I can use a ramp that is approx. 1 foot deeper than the distance from the pavement to the waterline when the boat is on the trailer. In my case that dimension is 65". So for me the ramp should be 77" deep where my forward axle sits on it. And that is why the 20' long extension.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Jerry for your reply,
What you are said makes a lot of sense. I can't quite picture what the skid plates look like. I think the idea of having the channel taller at the back of the trailer is a good idea, considering it will be deeper in the water back there. I also like the idea of having a mast support attached to the trailer rather than supported on the boat, and the tongue extension that attaches to where the hitch ball is.
Neil A378
Neil
Here is a picture of the skid plates. They allow the trailer frame to rise up at the end of the ramp as the tire approches and let the center of the tire hit the end of the ramp instead of the top of the tire. That way the wheel can roll over the end of the ramp.
Here's a ragged example: keel guide, bow stop,extended tongue, mast mount on trailer with no over hang, and the little skids in case the trailer backs off the end of ramp.
Carl,
That is a pretty nice trailer, is it home built?
Neil
Neil,
Yes, it is a homemade trailer,but not by me, Thank You. It's made with 5" channel iron, 2"angle iron and mobile home axles. If you would like the measurements ,I'll get them for you and post. I had more pictures but deleted them. Oddly enough it pulls like a dream, I pull it it with a 3500 (dual wheel) pickup. The trailer has no brakes but I had no problem towing it the 300 hundred miles home.
Here are a couple of pictures of C-155's trailer as another example... (More on the Mephisto Cat's thread here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...5-Mephisto-Cat)
You'll also find drawings, measurements, and dimensions for the trailer on post #11
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...1&d=1169716087
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...1&d=1207278187
From that thread:
"The trailer is all steel galvanized (6" Channel) with sealed wiring, and flush-equipped electric brakes for stopping power and safe dipping in salt water. The electric trailer brakes work great, and are essential as these are quite heavy loads. (in particular as I do not have a heavy duty towing vehicle)
It is also equipped with an extra axle at the front end. The intent of this additional axle is to be able to launch the boat from the beach... Hopefully somewhere in the gulf of California (Sea of Cortez) someday (sailing down in Baja!) where there might not be a lift or an appropriate ramp available."
I chose to use bunks instead of pads for a greater surface area of support. The pads do a nice jof of cradling the boat and spread the load across the hull.
I think that one of the bigger challenges in recovering a boat at a ramp will be the task of loading the boat in such a way that you end-up with the appropriate trailer tongue weight.
I shoot for about 800-900 lbs with my tow vehicle (Its max tongue rating), but the difference between an excessive load and uplift is only a few inches... Accurate markings on the boat & trailer would help quite a bit.
Hi all, thinking about purchasing this trailer for my commander.
http://newyork.craigslist.org/fct/boa/2012974458.html
Judging from the limited info he has provided does it seem like something that would work for the commander? I am going to look at it on Sunday, but If it looks good I am going to take it on the spot. Size-wise it seems about right, it really comes down to weight capabilities, does anything jump out as something that would indicate this trailer wouldn't work for my purpose? (that being back and forth in the beginning and end of the season...)
any insights would be very helpful! thanks...
For sale is a sailboat trailer best used for a 24-26' boat but could be used with other sizes as well. Its a tandem axle trailer. the lights work. It has electric breaks on both axles but they are not hooked up. It was only used around town. It has a 2 5/16" coupler and a swing away tongue jack with a wheel on it. The tires are old but holding air just fine. There are 6 adjustable pads and a keel block in the center. I don't know the specific weight capacity but probably around 5500 - 6000 lbs. local delivery can be arranged. Bill of sale only.
some measurements on the trailer
oveall length 20'
center of keel to hitch 14'
center of keel to rear 6'
pad heights about 32" - 48"
frame width 6'
bottom of keel to ground 23"
Hey Michael,
Good find! Nice trailer. At a quick glance it 'looks' a bit light on the steel sections used. Might want to check into it with the builder - a phone call should get you a quick answer. (Sellers are almost always 'optimistic'! - Even if the axels can take the load, the steel holds all of it together...)
There is a good chance it is fine. The 2-5/16" ball is a good sign, but better to verify before you own it!
What's your tow vehicle?
Just some other thoughts:
1.- Define 'back & forth' - 10 miles or 500. If you are at the load limit but only intend for short trips, you can be more comfortable.
2.- Might want to verify dimensions (See my trailer drawings -Post # 11 or so on the Mephisto Cat thread -link in previous post). Make sure you can center the load (center of gravity) between the two axels - hopefully close to the middle. This will be very imprtant for your trailer AND tow vehicle. (See trailer write-up in, or close to the referenced post above.)
3.- You'll NEED to sort out the brakes. Electric brakes are the way to go with such a load.
4.- Check with your motor Vehicle department for outstanding fees /issues. The seller is only offering a bill of sale.
Good luck!
Rico, thanks for the advice! I really appreciate it.
Yes this price is right, which is why I am interested, but if the trailer just wont do the job then I obviously don't want to spend my money on it!
My back and forth would be about 30-40miles twice a year.
The seller emailed me that he used it for a j24, which is obviously lighter, but the previous owner used it for a boat around 5,000 lbs. He didn't know what boat though, nor did he know the builder of the trailer. Would I have to get some sort of trailer surveyor to qualify/test the load capacity?
Sorry - I did not complete my thought above.; I meant to say 'A phone call to the trailer builder/manufacturer should get you a quick answer'... They will be the most qualified to answer the question.
They' have a record of the design spec for the trailer based on the VIN number. And it won't cost you anything. The next best option will be a structural engineer, but he will not be too familiar with trailer design - most likely.
I brought-up the issue because my trsailer builder tried to make a 4" section work, but could not... We ended-up going with a 6" section for the main steel members.
The section on the trailer above looks to be 4", but it is hard to tell what sort of construction it is. If it is a light steel tube - I can almost bet it will be way too light for a 5,500 boat (and this is BARE boat weight - add some more for the weight of your gear to that...
I do think it is C-channel.
The trailer looks fairly recent - why isn't it registered?? Make sure you are not buying any outstanding liabilities.
Rico, thanks again.
The seller does not seem to be that knowledgeable about any of the issues i need answering. Because of this I will probably not purchase this, or even go look at it as it's a 4hr round trip for me and isn't worth the time right now.
I've lucked into a free trailer! I've stored my unsightly one beside this one for several years and happened to ask my buddy whose lot it is on the story. Yadda, yadda, yadda... and he said it's all yours whenever you want to haul it away. Need to check the wheel bearings, brakes, etc, but it appears in good shape. Brakes are a great / legalizing upgrade from my crazy yard trailer.
I was collecting pictures of your trailers for my fabricator and had a question. I think the trailer would convert easily to one like Josh's for A-74 (picture 3). I'd just planned to use flat tops on my jack-stands, but saw Mike's rollers on A-398 (picture 4). The trailer has a bunch of rollers that were going either to the junk yard or Craigslist, but I wondered about the pros and cons for using some of them `a la A-398.
Thoughts? They would complicate bottom painting just a touch, but as long as the jack stands can drop them low enough and out of the way, that seems minimal. Seems like improved points of contact over flat-tops would be good.
Kyle,
A lot depends on how you plan to launch/retrieve Lucky Dawg. The rollers are great if you think you will be going on and off with the trailer but if you are going to have a yard launch and haul out I think the pads are much better: distributes weight better, easier for bottom cleaning and painting, boat is much more likely to stay put in an accident. If you use six you can drop a pair at a time for bottom maintenance.
Mike
C227
I created my trailer from a non-sailboat trailer last spring. (check out pictures und c-231) I went with pads, using the tops from 6 brownell stands. The threaded shafts are plenty strong for a bit of lateral load, which I opted for rather than trying to get the supports to be perpendicular to the hull.
I did employ 6 supports, which gives me the ability to lower one at a time out of the way for bottom maintenance. It also obviously gives some structural redundancy since I did the welding myself.
Another important consideration in favor of pads rather than rollers is that they do a better job of securing the boat from shifting in line with the trailer during hard braking or jerking up a steep hill. Rollers are ok for power boats which can be easily secured to a winch post, but that is almost impossible with a high sailboat hull. The rollers which came with mine are under my shed in case someone ever needs to convert back.
Another thing to consider is that the trailer should be set up so that whatever supports the keel is capable of carrying the full weight of the ship, say 5500 lbs (without any safety factor). Power boats tend to make it easier to distribute the load closer to the sides of the trailer, no so for a big blob of lead.
On my trailer (a modified shoreline) I ordered from the factory an additional cross arm (they call it a pivot) to go under the center of gravity, since the power boats typically have that part too far aft. I kept the original one on back there too.
My diagonal braces help to support the cross arm, in effect creating a bit of a truss with the hull of the boat acting as the top chord.
In my case I calculated that the center of gravity of the boat had to be just 9" forward of the mid point between the axles to give me a tongue weight of about 400 lbs, which I deemed enough but not too much.
I was pretty anxious when the travel lift lowered her down and the trailer just kept dropping, but it eventually settled down without looking too stressed.
I will say that it towed very comfortably. It was about 20 miles back to the house, and I could have dogged it on the not to busy highway with the flashers on, but it felt good enough that I did take it all the way up to 60 mph on a straight level section, just so I could say the Commander went a mile a minute once.
Other things I was glad I did: replace the original brake actuator, flushed out the lines real good, and made sure they worked with the trailer up on blocks, and put on NEW TIRES before I even brought the trailer home. They were not that expensive, and with the loads we are talking about, they run pretty close to capacity. Old weather checked rubber has no place under a boat like that. Think about the family in their suv headed the other way as you come down the road...
I will post a link to the pictures shortly..
-Frenna
Here is the link to C-231, down toward the bottom are the trailer pics, wich are worth a thousand words....
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...1&daysprune=-1
Thanks gentlemen for your advice. Maybe I can find a home for all those rollers. The boat only goes on and off the trailer with a travel lift or fork lift. I appreciate you both clarifying the benefits of tried and true flat tops. I have all of Rico's measurements as well as those from the manual. Thanks again.
p.s. And good point on the tires. No doubt that several years (8, I think) of sitting idle has rendered them unsafe.
Having trouble reconciling the cradle measurements from the manual (below) with my current trailer and the one I'm modifying. If, let's say, one were to put 2 axles beneath the cradle drawing, where would they lie? My current measurements (based on locations from my old trailer) have (Rico's calculation) the CG at 152" from the transom, falling just forward of my new forward axle. ...And I don't think that's right. Noting Frenna's CG location at 9" fwd of the centerpoint between the axles would be easy to take off if I could orient it to the cradle drawing. I would think CG would be the best zero point to start from - would that fall on that center pad? Getting the CG and the cradle drawing to line up would help if anyone has ideas on doing so. I fear my trailer doing a wheelie (or 2000# tongue wt) when I put LD down on it.
Kyle, If your uprights are adjustable you need not worry, you place the boat on the trailer where you want it. All 6 upright supports on the cradle are fixed and there less than 6 inches difference in height, surely you will have that much adjustment in your uprights.. On the two home made trailers I have, where the cutaway begins on the keel, sits an inch or two forward of the front axle. I tow with a 3500 series dual wheel pickup and it works perfect for me.
If, when the crane sets your boat on the trailer and your tow truck squats too much stop and move the boat back 6 inches and set the boat down again. adjust the uprights to meet the hull and your good, then adjust the bow stop to meet the boat.
This works for me and my tows have been over 1000 miles
PS As mentioned earlier I also added one frame crossmember just forward of the front axle to support the extra forward weight of a sailboat when converting a PB trailer to a Sail trailer
When I look at your trailer I think I would add two crossmembers, it appears you don't have any where you would support the keel. Also looking at your picture, the rear crossmember may need to be raised to fit inside the frame rails and not below it.... maybe. Carl
Thanks Carl. I do have beams added (in my drawings) per the cradle (as well as one just forward of the rudder post (yet to be determined exact position)) and I feel confident that my other measurements make sense - it's just the placement / CG with respect to the axles that I want to confirm! Ideas where would the axles be? Logic (to me) says the two beams in the manual drawing sit slightly forward of the center of the midpoint of the two axles.
P.s could you clarify "where the cutaway begins on the keel" - assuming where the keel begins to angle up towards the bow. Forgive my ignorance!
Kyle, Yes where the keel cutaway foot angles upward. (This where the bulk of the ballast is located) If you look at both trailer pictures that you posted earlier you can see each sets a little different, one is slightly forward of the front axle and the other boat much less so. The length of the tongue on the trailer will effect the weight on the hitch. This could very well be the reason different trailers have the boat placed differently. The position of the beams won't effect the C/G, the position of the load (boat) will. I would try to space the crossmembers evenly with relation to the upright positioning
The one trailer that I built I took measurements of the bulkheads on the hull and made the uprights set on or very close to these. I thought that was important at the time, in retrospect the weight of the boat is on the keel and the uprights are for balance parked and lateral support running down the road. The bow support I think is most critical, I would make this adjustable or temporary until you know the exact placement of the boat on your trailer. This support, properly set adds support to the tongue of the trailer. If you add a attached ladder to this you won't regret it, I had the forward hatch fly open towing home and no safe way to get on deck. In the pictures of Schnell the blue boat, it appears to not even contact the bow, but then Mike was using this as a cradle preparing to launch. The yellow hull boat doesn't appear to have a bow stop or support, that makes me nervous!
Kyle, On two of my trailers the rear most crossmember is behind the rudder shoe, the shoe doesn't contact the support on either of them. The third trailer is cut short because it was designed as a float on. Something to keep mindful of is you are going to scrape and paint the hull set the keel on a couple 2x4s placed cross ways on the keel support beam so you can paint the keel bottom, then crank up on the support pads and relocate the 2x4s. .
If your trailer has spring suspension, the rocker or equalizer between the two springs actually equalize the weight between both axles. this will make an exact measurement not so critical. Think of the advantage of moving rearward on a see saw as a child and the advantage gained so that you could hang your partner in the air!!! Moving 5500lbs 2 or 3 inches is a lot of weight adjustment.
Here's a picture of where 259 sits on her trailer, and the position of the crossmembers.
Here's a PB trailer I converted to haul an Electra, I added the crossmember between the axles and of course the uprights. and keel support.
Kyle, Just don't haul Lucky Dawg like this and you'll be fine
When working out the supports for C231 pictured earlier in the thread, I did not work from the cradle design, which seemed to restrictive. I started with laying out the possibilities on the trailer.
First thing I did was to shift the axles as far forward as I could, which made sense considering the length of the front part of the trailer. They tend to be too far aft on power poat setups.
Next I assessed the crossbeams that were existing. The forward one on my trailer was fixed (welded in position). The rear one was possible to adjust by shifting it to different mounting holes.
This left a big gap in the center near the axles where most of the weight effectively falls. Luckily I was able to order a copy of the rear "pivot beam" from the original manufacturer, galvanized and all, and it was not to spendy either. I located it as close as I could to the center of gravity of the boat, perhaps aft a bit to get it under the level portion of the keel bottom. Had to add my own mouting bolt holes to the frame, but the bolts I obtained from the manufacturere too, as they are a particular grade of bolt, and they pretty much support the boat.
I then decided to allign the vertical support posts with the crossbeams. Originally I was going to mount them on the longitudinal rails of the trailer so that the cross beams were not doing all the work, but the complexity of angling the cuts and welds inward enough to land the pads below the waterline intimidated me, so I opted for mounting them to the crossbeams and running them straight up vertically.
So that leaves the all-critical question of how high to make them so that they work with the boat. I did the calculations graphically using the lines drawing which I downloaded from one of the other posts on this site. If you can figure out how to work a lines drawing, it is not too hard to "connect the dots" and measure off the drawing to the right spot. Then just deduct for the pads and adjustment. I think I cut off 6" to allow for brownell boat stand pads plus some adjustment.
I will look for the drawing I did to figure this out, which is not elegant, but might help in the understanding.
I cannot remember if I used 2"x2"x1/4" or 2"x2"x3/16" tubing for the verticals, but one of those works well with the stock brownell pads.
I also had to grind off one side of the brownell pad sockets so that it would be able to pivot enough to meet the slope of the hull without binding first.
I found large thick galvanized washers to go between the top of the post and the round portion of the pad adjuster. The pad adjuster are designed to sit on close fitting round tubing of to small a dimension for a trailer support.
If needed I can get a picture of exactly where C231 is sitting (in my backyard) in relation to the axles and the keel, which might be helpfull when the time comes to place the boat.
Honestly, it was a pretty big head scratcher for me for a lot of evenings, and some of it did not come together until I was cutting and welding, but it did work and felt pretty good to figure it out on my own, for the most part.
Oh, and the lines drawing should have the center of gravity indicated on it, not to be confused with the center of lateral area....
Sail trailers in Columbus GA will sell complete uprights ready to install for $85.00 each if you happen to be going to GA over the holidays. They have a website, I don't have the link right now. Mine have about 12 inches of adjustment. Carl
Hey Guys,
Thank you so much for taking the time to fill in some of my (many) blanks. All very helpful. I really appreciate it.
KW
So here is the (almost) finished product. It'll get a coat or two of paint after I launch this Spring. Towed nicely - even in rather poor conditions - and is about 2 feet shorter (in altitude) than my previous trailer. Only measurement that was off was the height of the front posts. I'd like them to be 6 or 8 inches taller. Fix in the spring. I'll add a ladder too on the tongue.
Just reading through this thread and went to look at the Triad site, they've got a Commander pic - formerly Ceili, now in Minnesota, right?
http://triadtrailers.com/triad-trail...son-commander/