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There is play in my tiller caused by the wear in the holes where the bolt connecting fitting mounted on the tiller connects with the fitting on the head of the tiller shaft. The holes are now a little "oblong" and no amount of tightening or adding washers seems to hold for long. Recommended fixes anyone? One choice would be to drill out the hole one size larger and use a new larger through bolt. Any other suggestions?
There has been discussion on this. Try the search function using tiller, tiller head, etc.
Bill, I found it, but see that ebb and the other bill didn't think drilling it out to 3/8" would be a good idea. Awww shucks...................
Hi Kent,
I, ahhh, would conference with another sailor on your fitting. It seems very unlikely given the structure and weight of the tiller fitting that the bolt hole could elongate that much. I don't know of course because I haven't seen it. Not that I know anything anyway!
The fitting I have is massive and is evidently original. The bolt fits easily thru all the (4) holes.` There is a little play in the bolt all cinched up as it is.
What holds the bolt on is all taken up on the bolt. In other words the bolt does not need to be tight to the tiller fork. Indeed imco it should not.
If you use a cap nut (a closed nut) on a bolt fitted carefully to the nut, you can run the nut tight - to refusal - onto the bolt just before it tightens onto the washers. The washers obviously can be used as spacers or shims.
You want the bolt to be tight on to itself NOT onto the tiller fork. I believe this is the key to the problem. That way no up and down movement of the tiller can untighten the nut or the bolthead.
The bolt would be snug, with washers under the hexhead and under the crown nut. The bolt would have no back and forth movement BUT would be loose enough to spin with your fingers! Add or subtract washers, tillerhead I have has three.
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You can redrill to 3/8" but - take a look at the bolt you have now and see how close the bolt is to the back of the tiller head piece. My fitting has maybe 1/16" between the bolt and the flat back of the head.
There is enough meat left for redrilling if the guy drilling knows what he is doing. It's a one shot deal. It would take very careful setup so that no misalignment happens to the two pieces which must be drilled simultaneously. Whether the drillbit could get by the back of the tiller head is your call. If it is as close as mine is, you could take it first to a machineshop and have them mill out a 'relief' cove where the bolt goes by. Then your new larger holes could be drilled without the possibility of the bit being pushed off line by the back of the tillerhead.
The bolt, as I mentioned on another thread, should be upgraded to a bolt whose shoulder goes clear thru all four holes. Threads should appear ONLY where the washer(s) and nut goes. That's pretty precise! Can be done by buying an extra long American style bolt that is threaded only part way.
(I forget what size I had to get (6"?) - the guy at Jamestown actually left his computer to go into the warehouse to measure for me!)
You take a die and crank it to exactly where you want the thread to be, and cut to length.
Threading makes the diameter of a bolt smaller. A bolt that is threaded clear to the head going thru the tiller fork and thru the ears on the tillerhead is a looser bolt than specified. A solid, smooth shoulder is full diameter and may take some of the play away.
A 3/8" bolt may not be needed.
A nylock type lock nut might work, by giving you a little cinching leeway - to see if this works. But I would eventually put on a capnut. I would use all silicon bronze, you may have to get brass for the crown nut. Bronze bolt, 316 nut and Tefgel is ok.
So that's the fix as I see it.
Tighten the bolt independant of the tiller fork.
Use a full shouldered bolt.
This is all imco.:D
My experience has been that most of the play in the tiller on Pathfinder has been at the tiller head key way. What has helped was to place some brass shim paper in the key way of the tiller head. Some day we may spring for a new head but I think as long as we have a hard steel key inside a brass groove we are just going to have a reoccurring problem.
Thanks, ebb and Ed. Next time I'm at the boat I'll re-inspect all the moving parts to be sure that I've identified exactly what is moving around and by how much--- it could be a combination fix is needed (bolt play plus head play). Ebb, you think this stuff through, much more so than I do, and I really appreciate your ideas!
Taking 338's apart, and cleaning it up, the 5/16" machine screw that squeezes the head a tiny bit tighter around the shaft still works. Took a hacksaw blade to the kerf and pulled out a lot of maybe bedding compound of some sort. No corrosion, no metal, hard stuff. The kerf is a bit permanently bent but the shaft can gotten in. It could be carefully wedged open the few millimeters to it's former self.
But as Ed says it is the keyway that may be the key to the problem.
338 did not have its original rudder. In fact the shaft was some sort of stainless. The key I saved is s.s. and looks new. McMasterCarr has two keystock materials I would consider. 316 s.s. and 360 brass. The brass is "standard" sized (a full 1/4") but the alloy is 35% zinc. The 316 is "undersized" - and indeed the s.s. key that came out of 338's tillerhead is a couple mm thinner than 1/4". Must be modern standard.
But the problem is that it does not suction into the old keyway. And the keyway itself has badly chamfered sides. Not only that but the keyway in the tillerhead is deeper than it should be - meaning that any 1/4"X1/4" key material will not seat deep enough into the 1/8" keyway in the new ruddershaft. Not only has time and a million tiller-turns worn the ole keyway, but the new key material is sloppy too! What to do???
The tiller and the tillerhead, along with the rudder is a high maintenance item.
Can't remember who it was: but somebody used Pepsi-can for their shim material, Brass shim sounds ok. But are there any other alternatives?
Here's a proposal I'd like to throw in for discussion.
LOCTITE has a product specifically for 'keyed assemblies' and a couple methods to do it.
You coat the pieces with QUICK METAL 660 in the keyway and on the key - shove it together and wipe off the excess! The "heavy duty" way is to do as above but add some to the shaft as well. Disassembly is tapping with a hammer and add some heat if it needs help letting go. That's the thing can it be taken off without rigging block and tackle?
It's an interesting way of tightening up the joint - if it works.
Now that I've cleaned out 338's tillerhead of some strange olive-colored translucent compound.... you know, it wasn't corrosion, it wasn't metal.... I'm thinking that it might have been an old Loctite product. It coated the cavity and the slit, but it wasn't a problem getting it out. Not much. In the short time I sailed 338, a loose tiller head wasn't a noticable problem.
I like this idea because it at least partially fills the old wounds in the tillerhead without glueing it together. The 660 goop makes it tight, I assume. It is a product created for the job, though Loctite is thinking of pulleys and shafts, not an old rudder head on an Ariel. What you guys think?
I figure I could even cut a sliver of shim and 660 that under the key to raise it up. I worry that the key must interface with the shaft. Wouldn't want have a special size key made!
Was bill wasn't it who had setscrews added to his tillerhead by a DFO. That' not a bad idea if you get the metals galvanically close and have the set screws a good size, like at least 1/4"? The casting is about 3/16" thick where you'd want the setscrews. Available in 316 and 316L (Bumax 88). These have a larger head with a corresponding larger hex socket. Also getem with a square sided head. You are adding more holes..... Opines?
??????
to quote Ebb: "Was bill wasn't it who had setscrews added to his tillerhead"
yup, that was my alteration. A-231's keyway was a bit oversized. To make it work, I filed a custom key to match the keyways and clamped it in place with two setscrews that press the key into the rudder stock.
A-231's original tillerhead wouldn't clamp with just the 5/16 bolt, I don't know if it's possible for the casting to be stretched around the rudder stock but it sure looked like it did.
hopefully i"ll be getting my new tiller castings from Historical Arts this month. I'm hoping that tiller will be the long term solution.
cheers,
bill
bill,
did you finally get a new tiller head?
Do we deserve any photos?
Any observations on the casting?
How does it fit and work?
Stuff like that:p
What to do, what to do...
The Historical Arts Casting folks don't have our original pattern tiller head (they have the 1.5" straight and the 1.25" bent arm from the later Bill Shaw Pearson 26).
Thinking i'd start with something that at least looked like our original pattern (and being told it could be bored for 1" ) I ordered the 1.5" pattern.
Bunch of nice folks, the casting quality is very nice. one little problem, the casting they sent was cast with an 1.25" hole. Thought about fitting a sleeve or sending it back to get re-cast, I haven’t decided yet..
Here’s the new part:
Then just to add to the thinking, I stumbled on an unfinished rostand part that matches the original tiller head....
here is a lineup of the HA 1.5" part, my wornout original and the rostand 1" tiller head on the right.
you can clearly see the extra meat in the HA part as well as the wear on my old tiller head (note i no longer have the original pattern tiller part of this pair of castings)
Note for other folks headed down the track of looking for an original pattern tiller head... call Zeke at ensign spars, he has the right size.
The HA 1.5 pattern can be made to work if you ask for the pattern to have the shaft hole filled prior to the pour.... If you want an extra strong tiller (like Ebb) the HA part may be a good start.
cheers,
bill@ariel231
Caramel.
It all looks good enough to eat!!!
Especially this time of year when candy comes in all kinds of formms & shapes.
Doesn't the Rostand look like original pattern to you? The H.A. pattern is like comparing a porterhouse steak to filletmignon, no?
Isn't that H.A. just too B I G ?
Think that little machine screw will draw all that metal close togther - too much to clamp imco.
Won't the old fork work on the new Rosand head? If you had to do that?
Anyway thanks for those stylish photos!
Don't understand why that Rosand won't work for us?
I agree, the 1.5" HA part is a bit too large to make fit. Re-working the old rostand unfinished part will be way easier (it is an exact copy of the OEM part) ...:)
bill,
Fantastic photos. Looks like caramel - this time of year!
To me the Rosand pattern looks the same as the old one, NO?
Won't the old tiller fork work on the new tiller head?
The H.A. pattern looks absolutely humongous to me.
Do you think you can draw that split together with a smaller shaft hole.
Couldn't move it in a million years.
I don't understand why the Rosand won't work on the Ariel?
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However the old head in the photos shows some severe resculpting!!!
Imco that's the result of an BAD fitting bolt.
And as Ed points out a bad fit in the keyway.
I imagine the bolthole in the fork got out of round as well.
And as BILL mentions above, we have more on this subject elsewhere.
And the reason for the tiller bolthole wearing is due to steering with the tiller held high. The sides of the fork should engage the cheeks of the tiller head at all times.
One help for this is an radical "S" shaped tiller - one that misses people's knees because the handle is high at the end of the S shape when at the same time the tiller is almost in the down/resting position.
Admiral BILL has a perfect tiller of this type.
A more radical fix is to have the forks recast with "EAR" extensions. The forks would merely be wider at the bolt end (with appropriate shaping) so that when the tiller is raised - as when steering standing in the cockpit - the sides of the tiller still engage the cheeks of the tiller head because they extend lower. I would still have the pattern tiller BILL has in Maitai.
The wider/deeper tiller forks would help to keep the connecting bolt from getting wrenched and bent (tho that seems to me impossible - it also seems to happen). And keep the bolt holes in the tiller from elongating. This happens when the tiller at a high angle is steering the boat under load.
We could look at the bronze as being very forgiving. The tiller to rudder connection is high stress and high strain - better to have bending and wearing
than cracking and breaking. You probably can get back if its bent but not if its broke!:eek:
Interesting,
bill and I got crossed as I was editing. Sorry.
The tiller part of the casting is a very simple shape, and would probably be relatively easy to have recast. It also would be a piece of cake to make a pattern
I will either glue on wood 'ear' extensions to the bronze as suggested and use that as a pattern to be recast
OR make a model out of wood and take that to the foundry. If I made it, I would also widen it to take more tiller width, it is only 1 1/4" in the 'channel' in the original. That's really not enough for a hard working piece of wood!
It seemed appropriate to move to this thread. Here are some pics I took today while I was down for a sail.
My first reaction was doh, when the tiller was down all the way the slop went away (note to self, get another tiller that curves up as mentioned by others)
But then I realized even the slightest lifting of the tiller and the slop was evident.
Upon closer inspection it was clear the it did not stiffen up until the fork engaged the clamping not. One can look at the second picture and see where the wear is on that clamping nut.
It seems to me that unless it was designed poorly, that it must be so worn that the fork does not rest on what appears to be a shoulder above the clamping nut.
Can anyone point me to a picture of another tiller head so that I may better understand this?
Thanks Tim
It looks to me like you have a mismatched set there...
Have a look at post #28 in the 'Tiller Discussion' thread: (link below) to see the tiller fitting that matches the head fitting on the tiller shaft.
Mine matches that. (It is a 3 sided channel shape not just the two tangs... Although I have heard of other boats having only the two tangs....
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...5&postcount=28
I suspected that, thanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Rico
Tim
THERE"S a dang good reason to have the tiller part recast.
It could be done using an original. That does look like the original head fitting - but not the tiller, that is a mismatch.
There'd be some shrinkage when casting from an original piece, so it might require some machining to get that nice cozy fit the two mates have. But it can be done. Wouldn't be cheap, copper being so expensive.
That cozy fit helps cancel out wobble in the bolt. but the advantage is soon lost lifting the tiller up while steering. A laminated tiller like MaiTai's has a more pronounced S shape keeping it higher out of the cockpit, helping to keep it down while steering and protected in that more efficient position.
Don't know about adding 'ears' now that time has past. But if I was going to remodel it it would have wider (not thicker) metal at the bolt, maybe as wide as the channel section is now. With an S tiller that would be more good bearing on the head piece because it doesn't have to be lifted off the rudderhead as much. There are times when sitting on the coamings or making room for legs when tacking that a tiller has to be up and vulnerable.
And instead of the tiller piece pinching in the way it does, which I'm sure was done because it looked better to someone, I would have the channel get wider so that a bigger piece of tiller could fit in there. Or at least bring the sides back the same width of the tangs at the bolt. Still have the look of the original but the redesign would make more sense.
I would also go with a slightly lighter pattern, The sides are a massive 7mm on one side and 6.5mm on the other on the one 338 has. They'd be overkill for just tangs without the connection across the top. Keep it beefy at the hinge with slightly larger rounds at the end and taper the metal thickness in sides and the top down out over the wood. Skinny the metal down the further out on the tiller - don't need overkill out there - makes the tiller heavier than it needs be.
After all it's a casting, you can sculpt it the way you want! Take a pouind of metal off anyway, even though it would be wider than the original. Probably knock the hardass corners off too. Echo that nice dome we got going on the rudderhead piece.
The top of the shaft would be thankful. So would the old rudder head. Be easier to keep it tight there. Might even take some chore out of steering.
Ebb, Perhaps casting those parts sound intriguing to you, to me it is a bit overwhelming:(
Is there alternatives?
Hey there Tim.
I guess all my verbiage is to hopefully get some interest going about redoing the fitting. It's a pretty conservative lot we got going around here! Must be something metal and alloys and fire and brimstone. And it probably would be better if an actual Westlawn grad would draw the better one.
The imposing part in this is that we have deferred to the designer and engineer on the tiller/rudderhead fitting. I think that some bad compromises were made designing the one we have. And we're brainwashed into accepting it. I'll bet that Alberg had nothing to do with it. I believe that well enginnered fittings look right, have some beauty about them. That thing we got in the cockpit is heavy and clunky and ugly. This is not to say that it doesn't have some good things. The rudderhead part is pretty sophisticated - it's the tillerhead part that never was finished by Pearson.
Awhile back I got a chromed bronze Edson tiller/rudder fitting for a backup. It's a lot prettier and sexy to look at than ours - which looks like it was recycled off Capt Nemo's Nautilus. Trouble is the keyway is in the front rather than the back.
My attempts at making a new rudder now has two keyways on the top of the shaft 180 degrees apart. Actually that may be a good thing since keyways get screwed up a lot.
There may be an impediment going off to the foundry with your own design, but, hell, if you had one chock or cleat of a certain pattern and you had to have two, it isn't a big deal to take it to a foundry and ask them to cast another. Or, as I saw for ten years of weekends being around a great yacht being built, you make up wood models from the yacht designer's specs - or scale up a fitting you like - or fix a design that's OK but missed it. It's a mystery, but it ain't no big mystery.
Getting the tillerhead recast is something you'd go to the foundry and talk about. No different than going to a machine shop, or a highly skilled welder. And find out if something can or can''t be done. Just costs time and money.
Undoubtedly when I get the boat up here and apart that will be one of my options (since there are very few others ;) )
Before casting your own tiller fitting, get an original from:
Historical Arts & Casting, Inc.
5580 West Bagley Park Road
West Jordan, UT 84088
TEL: 801-280-2400
FAX: 801-280-2493
www.historicalarts.com
They acquired the original patterns for early Pearson yachts.
For more information check out post #25 in this thread:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...istorical+Arts
Thanks Bill, I had not completely forgotten, but did get misplaced in the shuffle.
Tim
Tim
Just a quick note on this subject:
Historic Arts has a lot of good stuff but they didn't get the pattern for the ariel/commander tiller castings. They have the 1.5 inch casting (for the vanguard and alberg35) they also have the 1.25 inch casting for the pearson 26 (designed for a vertical shaft))
Folks who have the right part in production are zeke durka at ensign spars (same part as the ensign) and bristol bronze, bristol's tiller head casting is through drilled for the shaft, having seen both parts, i lean towards the ensign spars part for originality)
Cheers
Bill@ariel231 :)
I think this is why I was confused reading previous threads, I am into functionality, which replacement would give me the strongest for the buck?
Both the ensign spars and bristol bronze parts appear to be equally strong. The cross-sections and alloy choices appear similar. The failure modes for my tiller were dissimilar metals (prior owner installed an aluminum tiller in the bronze casting... Not good) and wear on the bolt holes in the tiller head casting. If you have the original and the holes a just a bit oblong, you might want to talk to a welder experienced in repairing bronze (a propeller shop can fill the holes back in and re-machine the part)
I'm not concerned the original part is "under-sized" 40+ years of service is a lot to ask. My project this year is to replace my tiller head casting with an original pattern part. The rough casting is on the workbench awaiting a keyway and some time in the drill press.
Bill, be great to see some working fotos of how you finesse the new tillerhead casting.
Tim D,
My guess is CHE is still in the Bay Area. Some time ago now I had the rudder shoe cast in 655 over in Richmond at California Castings. They might still be there. They did a beautiful job using the finest sand possible, I got to see the sand box they cast it in. There wasn't much finishing that had to be done.
If it is in business and you want to set it up, I'll meet you over there with the tillerhead. I'll bring the complete fitting.
You would bring the rudderhead to see if they are indeed the same..
Thanks for the offer Ebb,
Yes Che' is still at Richardson Bay marina and will be until probably end of June. That is when I am hoping to bring her up to my yard in Mendocino for work to be done.
Do you have the tiller piece that matches my rudderhead?
Tim
Tim, Don't know.
It looks like what I have, ie the rudderhead in your photo.
And we have to assume it's original and like the others in the fleet.
Not quite sure how one tells.
Can we preliminary meet? Sausalito? I've got to get some microlite filler at WestMarine. San Rafael? Little Gull is on the hard at SRYH. We can compare the pieces. See if they fit. Then at least you know what you got.
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Later Post:
....OK Tim, let's arrange a day for you to stop by SRYH. Borrow the tillerhead - take it to yer boat - try it on the rudder piece. If it fits then maybe talk with Bill231 about how he got his cast.
Mentioned above in another post, here is another 'quick-and-dirty' goop product that MAY be useful in tightening the rudderhead on the shaft. (4oz $25 - $35) A truncated keyway with loose key, a worn socket now unable to be snugged around the shaft top, can be tightened up. Haven't used it, but this does sound like the right stuff!
It's a creamy. non-running gel adhesive. Fills gaps to .020 (+1/64") and sets up quick. 24hr cure.
Product literature also says it's meant for worn keyways, loose set screws, and for form-in-place shims. YUP, sounds like Little Gull's.
For us it would be a slip fit. Douse the keyways, slather the cup inside and the top of the shaft and press it in place. Whatever squishes out won't harden so you can mess with it after the rudderhead sets up.
A problem with any stuff like this is whether the hardened material will let go when disassembling. We are not in the easiest place for hammer tapping - that's Bill's method without a miracle filler. We're assuming that this stuff will let go with a couple smart taps.
Maybe quick heat with the mapp-gas will help soften it up.
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Stuff is a single part resin in a small tube - sets up in the absence of air according to the tech bulletin. It's green in color. The strange hard stuff in LG's rudder head was olive colored. Might have been the same filler. Rudder head had no play in it that I recall, nor any problem getting the head off the shaft. It's slick and has tremendous integrity - it was a long time before I realized something was different about it and needed probing. Chipping it out took work. Tough stough.
Tech sheet says heat softens it.
OOPS, just remembered we have a plastic sleeve bearing!! Howbout applying a very lite coat of lanolin on the shaft and in the keyway with a q-tip when assembling and blotting most of it away with a dry cloth before Permatexing?? Think that will be my approach. Close but not married.
One thing: If the Permatex bearing cement is anaerobic and sets up only in the absence of air, how come it stays liquid in the tube?:rolleyes:
Well, I started this thread, let everyone have their say, and now years later I finally did something about my wobbly tiller head. When we last saw Charisma's tiller action, she was ok when sailing with weather helm, but was a bi**h to keep on course motoring. I bought the 1" tiller head from Edson and will put her on this weekend. Oh yea, I'll drop in the new bearing I bought years ago if I can find it! It's probably with the rudder shoe I bought from Fred Pomeranz years ago. Talk about the cost of carrying inventory!!
Myself bought the Edson tiller head
and it requires the key way on the ruddershaft
to be on the exact opposite side.
You probably can take the whole rudder to a machine shop, and
have them cut in a new keyway.
My ruddershaft has a 1/4" keyway on both sides front and back.
Just in case I have to use the Edson.
But it is a chromed lighter duty fitting,
the one I got, consider it only a backup.
DEWOBBLING THE ORIGINAL TILLERHEAD FITTING
Bronze is relatively easy to weld and work.
A decent weldshop will be able to add material to eggshapped
holes that will allow them to be redrilled to new condition.
Don't remember seeing your tillerheard fitting here.
Don't believe the keyway in the head piece can be in too bad shape.
Mine looks truncated, looks a little wider on top than in the bottom
of the slot. I'm not using any filler, just a key that completely fills
the slot, about a full inch. I've added two 10-24 set screws and
2 corresponding dimples in the key, to make sure the key won't
move down the corresponding keyway in the rudder shaft. Used
no shim material in the cavity. Slathered everything with Lanocote.
Remove the 5/16" machine screw when assembling. Carefully use
a small C clamp, attempt to nudge the crack very little to snug, and
return the screw tight to hold, not to try to bend the unbendable.
Might help to be able to talk about it.
Juts get the welder to fill the 3/8" holes and redrill exactly where they
still are in the heads fitting and the tiller fitting if needed. Important.
Set screws to hold the key in the keyway. Also
slightly larger set screws or small hexhead machine screws tapped
into the sides of the head, into 1/8" deep and slightly wider holes in
the shaft. These extra sets really tighten up the head on the shaft.
Hold or lock the tiller head assembly onto the shaft.
They are easy to back out when pulling maintenance.
You really want to have easy access to your sleeve bearing. It stops
wobble and keeps water in the rudder tube from squirting into the
fitting..
Tefgel or Marelube can also be used to isolate metals and keep salt
out of close quarters, but it's expensive. Lanocote everything
including the sleeve bearing. DO NOT USE PETROLEUM GREASE.
Make sure the 3/8" bronze hinge bolt has a smooth shank through
both 'ears' on the head. TopNotchFasteners may be able to help.
Have to buy a longer USmade hexhead bolt with a smooth shank to
go all the way thru the head. Cut off most of threaded portion.
End up with very little thread, just enough for a crown nut and a
couple washers.
TILLER AS A LEVER ARM
If you stand and steer, or have a bunch of knees in the cockpit, and
have a fairly straight tiller... you will be lifting the tiller fork off the
head. Higher you lift the more leverage you transfer to the hinge
bolt. Turning rudder in tiller's down position, the flat sides of the
head cancel any leverage produced. Tiller lifted above the tiller
head puts all the strain on the bolt. Hole egging, wear, and bending.
Bought a laminated tiller with a pronounced S curve, making it
almost possible to stand and steer with the tiller down. Tiller curve
is above most knees now also. Less lethal if moved suddenly.
I should've responded to this along time ago but here goes. I cut the keyway on the opposite side of the rudder shaft in situ using my Dremel along with dentistry precision and Voila, it worked. The tiller head fitting that I bought seems to be very robust -every bit as robust as the original. But I don't know ...... Everything is now installed and working perfectly. No more wobble!
I have a lot of play in my tiller (not sure if it is the tiller or rudder post or what).
I read through this post and I am not sure what would apply to me. I've attached pictures of my tiller head. What should I try first? Just tighten every bolt and see if that helps? (ignore the moisture meter from the survey).
Any help would be much appreciated.
thanks, Mike
I want to update you all on what I found. The tiller play was because the previous owner had taken the broken base of the tiller and glued it back together (and added lots of screws) then put it back in the tiller head. Quite a mess. I didn't trust it, so I found a new tiller at https://store.ruddercraft.com/index....product_id=571. I was surprised that they had a commander tiller and was pleased with the product. It has served me well and I kept the old tiller as a backup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander152