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my my my my.....yes, this guy.....can't say: Chance is 'one of the best'...
Chance has the best damn control of methods and materials I've ever seen.
Of course, that doesn't say it....whotduayeknow?
He's the master! He does incredibly beauiful work!
The photgraphs he's provided are wonderfully detailed. Even the ugly stuff looks good.
And captcraig will find time well spent visiting there.
Respectfully, me too.
Thanks Bill!
That is quite a rudder project no doubt. Inspired and on my way to the shop, lol
Attachment 9197 Removed the rudder last night and it appears to be pretty solid. There is a gap between the seperate boards which allows a little flex when pushing down on the trailing laying flat on a table. Would love to have a new one but... Can anyone explain or show pics of how this original rudder is assembled?
Attachment 9199Attachment 9198 The shoe looked good from the outside but I could see a puddle of water down inside the shoe, so I removed it to inspect the heel. Sand and dirt are inside the shoe
Attachment 9202Attachment 9201Attachment 9200 The heel in pretty good shape, shoe off, the red part on the inside is where water was puddled, the shoe cleaned up a little
Does anyone have advice to offer when reinstalling the shoe? I would like to use the same peen type pins if they can still be purchased. Also considered 5200 or 4200 for a watertite seal to the heel. Your feedback would be great.
There is a tech drawing in the appendix to the owner's manual that illustrates the rudder construction.Quote:
Originally Posted by captcraig
Here's a good thread by the PO of Ariel 24. Tim did some really great work. (starts on post #52)Quote:
Originally Posted by captcraig
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...Ariel-24/page2
More rudder discussions here:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...4545#post24545
really good for locating the 3/8" FLATHEAD MACHINE SCREWS.
You can get FULL BODY slotted SBFHMS 3/8-16 from TopNotchFasteners in sizes from 2 1/12" to 16". At very reasonable prices for exactly what you'd need for a rebuild.
Full body means you are not using allthead which for its size is weaker than FB unthreaded.
Look on the trailing end for plugs.
Also I think I recall a small third 'plank' was (sometimes?) added to make the profile curve. That was screwed on with wood screws from the trailing edge.
Assume the 'bronze' of the old sweet water rudder will probably run into problems sooner or later in salt.
C46400 NAVAL BRONZE is a tricky alloy. It's an alloy of 60% copper 39.2% zinc and 0.8% tin. It is traditionally used for shafting.
It's other name is Naval Brass. But the addition of tin allows it to be called a bronze. And it is pretty strong stuff. But not galvanically.
0.8% tin is added for an equal quantity of zinc. It makes the 'brass' more resistant to dezincification. But not entirely, high zinc alloys (including 30% zn manganese bronze) always end up porous...... under salt water.
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Captcraig, What would you have done if someone had 5200ed your ruddershoe onto the keel?
PEENING COPPER ROD....SparTalk Brion Toss - Peening copper rod 6.29.07
Attachment 9203 Thank you Bill, Mike, Ebb, When I took the boat off the trailer it was just high enough to place 3 concrete blocks underneath in series which by dumb luck was just high enough to slide the rudder out, whew. Ok Bill you talked me into buying a manual and yes Ebb I'm glad someone didn't have the bright idea to 5200 the shoe on to the heel. The third plank appears to be put together with drift pins and maybe the second as well. I'll know more once its clean. It does look exactly like the rudder in post 100, of this thread. I have been scouring the forum and searching. I'll check out all those post you pointed out soon. Thanks again
You can buy copper rod at McMaster-Carr. It's easy and fun to hammer and peen rivets.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-rods/=r0en3w
Drift pins are usually metal.
If metal (bronze or copper) hopefully the planks will separate as they loose moisture
and you can use an ocillating blade like a Fein Tool (buy a cheaper one with a Bosch
dog leg metal cutting blade) to separate the planks.
Before you start cutting see if you can DISASSEMBLE the fastenings.
On the edge of the plank if they are wood - look closely for end grain if a dowel. If flat grain it's a plug and there is
a slothead just inside.
If you are seeing a fat shadow in the crack, that's a 3/8" machine screw (flathead bolt) or screw. Not likely wood.
Remove the little 3rd 'plank' first (if there is one), see what's inside. Might find some nuts and washers. Or just screws.
Bolts you can get out of there - but probably not drift pins. I'd be surprised if drift pins were used.
IN THE 1"D SHAFT (stock)
You really need the drawing to locate the fastenings. BUT, of course you can 'see' the heads in the metal shaft.
There are three screws or bolt heads in each section of the shaft.
"Upper rudder stock and lower rudder stock" on the drawing.
Top of the rudder at the beginning of the blade:
First fastener is a bolt - just before the bend - which presumably goes thru the first board (it is listed as 6" long.)
Next fastening is a 5" #18 screw - goes thru the bent part of the shaft.
The lag screw might be difficult to get out. Use a driver that fits tight and to the bottom of the slot of the head.
[Ancient tip: See if it'll tighten first, a tiny bit - that might help start it, then back it out.]
Third at the end of the bent shaft is said to be another 6" bolt.
Lower straight shaft has a 6" bolt near the cut out - at the top of the lower stock.
Assume that goes thru the first board also.
Next two fastenings are shown to be 5" screws.
6 fastenings total. 3 screws, 3 bolts.
You will note these boards are not glued together. They were bedded with a non-adhesive compound.
This allows the rudder to breathe when it is in and out of the water.
It will tend to keep the rudder from cupping and bowing.
It's natural for the cracks to appear. The rudder will swell closed again in the water.
Talked with one rudder rebuilder here who glued his together - and reported his blade had not bowed.
Toast that "solid" Honduras M.
50 years, hard working, drowned, drillrd, neglected, poisoned, and still a champ. That's amazing !
Hey Ebb, yer right once again. Screws in the rudder. Was walking by the rudder and took a look in bright sunlight this morn and there was a mahog plug and another, one fell off in my hand. Slotted screws ahoy. I read most of Tims Rudder/Keel project and that is an excellent article to understand the complex keel setup. Not as simple as I had imagined. The mould idea using the old shoe appeals to me. Thank you guys for pointing out those post. Haven't read the other project yet but will.
Attachment 9205Attachment 9204 The mahogony plug that came off when I brushed it with my hand. The more I look at the rudder the better it looks, the wood is still very dense.
Attachment 9207Attachment 9206 Good wood cleaned up, now for the rest of it. Sharpest edge on trailing edge at left and wood plug to right
Attachment 9209Attachment 9208 The plastic bushing was at the base of the fiberglass tube, it polished the brass. Original hardware, plastic bushing top left, new bushing in center from the Association.
All the rest of my progress will be posted on my thread "Ariel 157" in the Gallery.
(left side of photo - bottom 416)
On that head fitting.... that sits on the "stock".... looks like
it's missing a CAP SCREW. Did you remiove it?
A few observations:
That screw is meant to squeeze one of the cheeks it goes thru
around the shaft....so the tillerhead won't pull off too easy.
And also help keep the square key from moving around.
It's not a bolt that goes there! The fat cheek is threaded to receive the screw.
The thinner cheek has no threads - it's meant to slip the cap screw
Looks like it's supposed to tighten the thinner cheek a skoch.....
BUT it's impossible to move it by screwing in the ittybitty cap screw.
You may break the SB hexhead- fullthreasd 1"-5/16-18
capscrew if you want to close the gap with it.
After cleaning crud out of the 'crack', when reassembling, before you
screw in the bolt, bend the cheek closed (1/32" - 1/16") around the shaft
with a 'C' clamp,
(To make it easier, try to 'pre-bend' it before slipping it on the shafthead. Careful....)
THEN turn the cap screw in with LANOCOTE or Tefgel.... just barely tight.
Lanocote the key too. I'd smear it on everything - keeps the salt crystals out.
50 years ago, when it was new, it probably fit pretty good. Now the rudder head
sits loose on the shaft. Somebody here SHIMMED his with a piece of pepsicola can.
(onlinemetals has pure soft copper shim sheets. Like a footsquare for $8)
At least one other owner has drilled and tapped his rudder head for one or two
316 SET SCREWS (10-24 - McMCarr) that penetrate into the rudderhead KEYWAY
- to press the key against the shaft.
The problem with that is remembering them when it comes time to take it apart.
A great idea is also to countersink the KEY to receive CONEPOINT set screws
to keep the key from slipping out of the head keyway. Imagine the strain on
the top of the shaft there .....as you push & pull the tiller a million times.
One more thing that removes slop from the steering system.
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Photo at 415... Oddest looking plug I evah did see!
Whuts in there?
I've decided to make a template using the existing rudder, so that I can duplicate the size and shape of the original. After that, dismantling of the existing rudder will begin. Hey Ebb, slotted screws behind those plugs just like you said.
While not absolute, because of the number of times a drawing has been copied,
this may get you closer to Alberg's lines (rather than Pearson's).
That is an assumption. There is no way of being sure that copies in the Manual are correct,
(or that the Pearson rudder on the boat is Alberg accurate) but imco this is what we have to work with.
Take the rudder lines drawing (pg 170) from the Manual to a copy shop.
Have them zoom the picture to a 12 Scale Rule (1"= 1')
[Available 6" and 12" rulers - with inch separations in 12 parts - rather than standard 8-16 parts.
Got mine off the internet. But an art supply shop might have the rulers.]
Zoom the drawing to a known measure of the rudder.
For instance, the lower stock on the drawing is 24" - plus the 3/4" that goes into the shoe.
So, at the copyshop, you might scale the lower rudder stock drawing to an actual 12" or 6" or 3" using this one known measure.
With a very thin point pen, draw a 12 Scale grid on the quarter or half sized scaled up copyshop rendition of the whole rudder blade.
Then lay out a full sized grid on your shop table, and translate the rudder lines to it.....almost directly from the master's hand.
Wood battens may help lay out the curves.
I have an Acu-Arc 1033-48 48" Adjustable Curve (a bit pricey)
It is composed of a number of sliding interlocking plastic strips that easily bend and sortof
hold the shape while you carefully trace the template you have layed out.
Hope this helps.
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Took all Manual Ariel drawings to the copyshop and had them zoom and print the A/C to an exact 9 1/8" inch waterline (18' 6")
- thereby creating 'to scale' drawings which produce pretty much accurate measures - using the 1" = 1' doll-house ruler.
Another quick measure to check zoom accuracy at the copyshop is the length of the mast*: 15"......every 1/2" = 1'.
* exactly 15", deck to the mast head, but not including the masthead fitting or crane.
[The only Alberg heliga graal signed lines drawings are on pgs 144 & 145 in the Manual.]
Don't know that Pearson delivered Ariel's with an 18' 6" waterline. Has anybody ever actually measured??
Well I have taken the rudder apart somewhat and put back together a little bit. Thanks Ebb for that advice, I'll be buying a manual soon and using your advice to build a new rudder. I am going to keep the old for a spare and restore it as best I can. The third board (trailing board) had three drift pins in it and wood screws at each end. Its solid so I'm leaving it alone.Attachment 9211 Attachment 9210 The top fastener on the bronze rod is a machine thread that goes to this nut and washer holding the first board to the rudder shaft.
Attachment 9212 The second fastener is a wood screw holding the first board to the rudder post, the third fastener is a machine thread bolt the same length as the first but going beyond the first board into the second board (pencil is pointing to the area where nut and washer are still buried under paint) I was able to tighten that bolt a quarter turn after first removing it and cleaning it. I also cleaned bottom paint out of the crack between board 1 and board 2. The wood plug was only attached with the short straps and two short wood screws at an angle.
Attachment 9213 Showing the wood screw
Attachment 9215Attachment 9214 Pearson plastic in the holes?
Attachment 9216 The Wood Rudder is slowing appearing.
I am just about done with rehabbing the hull and deck and about to start with the repower project. I am going to install a Yanmar 2GM. The boat was originally powered with an outboard so I figured I would start to poke around and see what was involved with cutting the window in the keel and rudder, installing the shaft log and building an engine bed. When I started to sound the keel where the window should be I noticed a decidedly different sound. It sounded like a different laminate schedule than the rest of the keel so I cut a bit out and discovered that the boat was built for an inboard and they glassed over the window. A little cutting and a few minutes with a pry bar and viola. I have my keel window. I was prepared for a fairly involved glass job and now all I have to do is clean up a little tabbing and install the shaft log. I hope the rudder is as easy. It appears the stock is set up for a window too. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
Attachment 9756
Attachment 9757
Attachment 9759
Attachment 9758
Yes, the rudder has a cutout for the prop . . . unless it was changed by an earlier owner.
Looks like I have the original rudder. lucked out again. Not much room for a prop.
Attachment 9760
Maybe not exactly time for that.
But I happen to be in an email discussion with a lady whose taken the time to look up the
Pearson Ariel, understand it's challenges and dimensions... in regard to the Finnish OceanVolt
electric motor system I happened upon.
They have a saildrive and a horizontal, I call it, option. Remove your Atomic 4, trade it for an
OceanVolt electric inboard, add 15.000..... Find places for the lithiums, and >BOP< happy
sailing forever!
Once you get past the brochure, imco, we are left one problem that really never has been
solved. That is: how do we seal the shaft that the propeller turns on where it goes thru the
hull? There certainly is a need for visual inspection and, of course, maintenance to keep both
the newer bellows dripless face seal type stuffing box happy... and the good oldstyle lip seal
using cutlass bearings. Both require perfect installs to remain dripless for any length of time.
We live in an age of synthetic rubbers and amazing metal alloys, yet manufacturers still use
naval bronze (brass) for the bodies and unsophisticated rubber (nitril) for sealing. Their
systems still depend on miniature set screws that are buried inaccessible in their installation.
Victorian technology in an age of space craft and Gun Boats.
In our Ariel/Commanders, access to that bearing 'box', after the motor is installed, is, as I
understand it, impossible. Except from outside.
If the motor is removed, I don't fit anyway under the cockpit where the stuffing box lives...
If we are setting the boat up for seasonal use, being close to haul out facilities, will give us
peace of mind. If the boat is going foreign, cruising, and constantly in water ... or if like
most of us we'll be forgetting about the damn thing... that last thing we want is a hole in
the hull that can't be reached immediately....once we figure out where the leak is coming
from... to fix. Ya sure by golly!
That's why I've always thought our OB option was the perfect answer.
Can't imagine a damp oily foul smelling bilge that has to be
constantly pumped out by equally unreliable electric pumps and warning systems.
Even a constant bitty drip is a leak that can escalate into disaster.
Also take exception to rudders with holes in them, both from rudder strength and steering
control.... Well, that's the way I see it....
How are you going to approach yours???:D
I like the electric but I want a little more range. I have a Yanmar 2GM that I think will fit the bill. I was going to use a dripless stuffing box. PYI sells the PSS stuffing box and they work pretty well however they need to be burped after launch. http://www.shaftseal.com/en/categories/300000001. I am pretty sure that I will be able to access the stuffing box and burp it by climbing into the lazerette and laying on my side. I am not so worried about holes in the boat as many seem to be. They just need to be installed correctly and maintained. I plan to install a shaft log http://catalog.buckalgonquin.com/ite...hort/10slw1002 and attach the stuffing box to that. I plan to cut out the cockpit floor above the engine so I can lay up a proper engine bed with a lip that will catch any oil leaks and/or the fuel drips. I have a jig to line up the engine bed so i pretty confident that I can get the alignment right. I did not recore the cockpit floor when I did the other deck work in anticipation of this install. The floor comes out this weekend.
I am thinking of making a couple of modifications to my rudder this winter. I would like to open up the aperture a bit so I can install a feathering prop and adding a little more surface area (10% of so) to the trailing edge. After removing the corrector weight from the boat I have a little more weather helm than I would like. Any thoughts?
Presuming you are not a fanatical racer who has cut the handle off your toothbrush to reduce laden weight, have you considered adding ballast to compensate? I added 150 pounds of leadshot in 25 pound bags (#8 buckshot purchased at a gun shop for $2 per pound). After much experimentation, I placed the leadshot ballast in the bilge under the forward inspection hatch. Leadshot bags conform nicely to the shape of their surroundings, with no pressure points. Your situation, and location of ballast, will be different of course. But adjusting the longitudinal center of gravity by adding ballast seems to be a far simpler approach to making fine adjustments in trim than modifying the rudder. Just an idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisquit
I think that would probably work I should have given it a try before I hauled for the season. I like the performance I am seeing since I removed the extra ballast. In moderate to heavy air (over 15 knots) is when it becomes a problem. I think a lot of things are contributing to the extra helm. I have an over sized main and my jib is a 170%. I should probably address it there but since I was thinking of modifying the aperture I thought adding the extra surface area to the trailing edge would not be too much extra effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by pbryant
Good lord that is a lot of sail area! When the wind got over 12 MPH or so, I would tuck in a reef and change to my %100 jib and A-414 would sail beautifully and balanced AND up to hull speed no problem - and no weather helm at all. That was my favorite sail configuration for the Ariel. Of course I'm not a left coast sailor, but hull speed is hull speed. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisquit
Above 18 knots, SF Bay sailors use a 110 jib. Above 25 knots, we "might" put a reef in the main :cool:
Hi, I think for a feathering prop to fit that would be quite a large "bit" of opening up on the rudder. If you should decide to go this route, I have a feathering prop that I could offer you for a large savings, it's off a 30 ft Catalina. (A4 engine)
I may me interested. I have a line on a 3 blade Gori. What brand and model do you have?
Re my Gallery post, I'm trying to find a recent rudder build pictured on the forum somewhere. It isn't in this thread. It had long bronze L's welded to the shaft. May have been two pieces of mahogany sandwiched together. Maybe you've seen it? My dull brain needs step by step instructions with pictures that goes beyond what is in the manual!
During a haul out in late July 2018, we discovered that the mahogany rudder blade on my Pearson Ariel was eroded due to alkaline conditions produced by the rudder zinc that had been installed on the rudder. The zinc was in very good condition after more than a full year in the water. The copper strap connecting zinc to the rudder bolt within the body of the rudder blade had been broken (likely due to metal fatigue incurred when a diver was cleaning the rudder blade while installing a new zinc). We considered repairing the rudder blade with epoxy, but upon examining the upper bronze rudder shaft, we decided to replace the rudder. The bronze rudder shaft was badly eroded in the vicinity of the top rudder blade bolt. Since other Ariel rudders have failed in this same location, and in light of the evident corrosion, we decided to replace the rudder.
The rudder was removed on August 1, 2018 in the slings just before the boat was splashed. The rear part of the keel was cleaned with scraping tools and sand paper to clean it and open it up in preparation for the new fiberglass over wood rudder, which was to be constructed of a wood and fiberglass using a stainless steel shaft and blade support structure.
While waiting for the new custom professionally built rudder, I repaired the decks repairs a few gelcoat gouges, and resurfaced the non-skid areas using Interlux Brightside one-part polyurethane.
We hauled the boat again on September 26, 2018. The boat remained in slings while the new rudder was fitted to the keel. The new rudder was built on a shaft made by
of 304 tight tolerance stainless steel rod welded to 1/2 inch all-thread stainless steel rods that run through and support the rudder blade.
The rudder blade was built of Kiln Dried Douglas Fir 2X6 and 2X4 boards secured to the shaft by nuts secured to the 1/2 inch all-thread stainless steel rods. The kiln dried fir boards that compose the rudder core were glued together with and all voids were filled with West Systems Epoxy. The boards were then shaped by sanding to an improved more aerodynamic shape with a larger blade that tapers to the trailing edge as shown in the attached photos. The last 1/2 inch of the trailing edge was built of epoxy resin. The rudder, including the stainless steel shaft where it abutted the rudder blade, was then wrapped with 6 oz fiberglass cloth saturated with E West Systems epoxy, sanded to fair and then coated with Interlux 2000 Barrier Coat. The stainless steel shaft was wrapped with one layer of cloth. Two layers of cloth were applied to the rudder blade. Finally, while the second barrier coat layer was still wet, Petit Trinidad bottom paint was applied. This layer was followed by two additional layers of Petit Trinidad.
The rudder was installed in the slings. The original bronze rudder shaft was bent, and the shaft had wobbled about in the rudder tube until the bushing was set into & tiller head in its place at the top rim of the rudder tube. A shim as used with the old bronze shaft. The new stainless steel rudder shaft is straight. When installed, it initially pressed hard against the aft rim of the rudder tube. The bushing was installed around the new rudder shaft by manually pulling the top the shaft forward, inserting the bushing, and then tapping it down into position using a wood block driven by plastic mallet. No shim is required with the new shaft.
The new rudder was tested on the day of installation by sailing a distance of approximately 10 nm in winds ranging from five to fifteen knots with seas of approximately two feet. The rudder performed well. Top speed was over 7 knots. Speeds of 6 knots were sustained while beating and close reaching based on GPS speed with 10 to 15 knots of wind.
The dotted line on the photo below of the rudder (shown before application of fiberglass) is an outline of the old (original) rudder profile. The new rudder is shown in other photos after application of fiberglass, after application of Interlux 2000 Barrier Coat, after application Petit Trinidad bottom paint, and as mounted on the boat in the slings just before splashing the boat. Additional photos of the old rudder are include din the follow-up post.
The photos below show the old damaged rudder blade in the area of the rudder zinc and the old rudder in 2004 during a previous haul out.
How is your weather helm? Did it increase with the added surface area of the new rudder?
Looks great by the way!
Question asked: "How is your weather helm? Did it increase with the added surface area of the new rudder?"
My Answer: The profile (surface area) of the rudder is larger. The leading edge of the rudder is necessarily the same width due to the shaft width, but the rudder tapers to the trailing edge, as can be seen in some of the photos in my earlier post. The final 1/2 inch of the trailing edge is epoxy. If you look closely at the photo of the fir rudder blade that was taken prior to the application of fiberglass, you will see a dashed black line. That line shows the profile of the original rudder. The line should help you visualize the areas where the profile of the rudder was enlarged.
Yes, the weather helm has been reduced as a result of the new design. While at sea if I am sailing alone, I generally use sheet-to-tiller self steering system to steer the boat, so that I am free to handle the sails, navigate and serve as look-out. I am still tweaking the settings on that system to adjust for the decreased pressure on the new rudder due to the reduction in weather helm. As far the boat speed goes, my Ariel seems to be running faster to weather. This would be expected due to an improved, more aerodynamic rudder design.
Below is a photo of the old rudder taken during my recent haul-out in July showing damage to the mahogany rudder blade due to erosion resulting from alkaline conditions produced by the rudder zinc that had been installed on the rudder. Whether this damage was accelerated by the broken copper strap that once connected that zinc to one of the bolts tying the rudder blade to the shaft, I do not know, but I suspect from my research on this topic that placing a zinc on a wood rudder is not a good idea regardless of whether or not that zinc is connected to the bronze or steel rudder support structure.
Scott, You mentioned in your October 31, 2018 post that you purchased a new custom professionally built rudder for your Ariel. Can you tell me who/where you purchased it from? Joe Starck (Commander Hull #43)
Joe,Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander43
Sorry for the delay. I missed you post earlier. My new rudder was custom designed and built for my boat by Lighthall Marine on Santa Cruz, CA.
I purchased Commander #274 (Old Glory) 2 days ago after having a thorough marine survey conducted. The rudder has a fiberglass layer over the wood core. The fiberglass layer is visibly damaged and the wood exposed. Looks like she struck something at the bottom of Lake Michigan. In any case, after reading every post on this thread today and exchanging comments with an Ariel owner at the same yard, I’m torn on whether to simply remove the glass and refinish the wood underneath (ok, I choose to be an optimist here) or replace the fiberglass layer after drying/refinishing the wood core. Everything I’ve read, including Don Casey’s book on sailboat repair suggests a wet rudder of wood in the water provides better “neutral buoyancy” than one covered with fiberglass and thus improves performance. But the same sources suggest wet wood is an invitation to problems. So what to do? Our sailing season is seven months and the boat will be in a cradle in indoor heated storage during the cold months.
Hi, I cannot offer guidance, I recently purchased a Triton with what appears to be the original wooden rudder in pretty decent shape. I'm trying to determine if glassing over would add strength and overall life, or whether to simply splash it and let the wood swell with the water and use it for the season. Will be interested to what people suggest.
Hi, I'm a member of 'The Alberg Design Fleet of San Francisco', which is essentially the former
Triton fleet of San Francisco Bay. You may find us on the internet. And you might find a way
to contact one or all of the active members. The Triton rudder hangs on two gudgeons, and is
toptally different than the A/C rudder. Some of the Triton rudders have had to be completely
rebuilt. But I think you will find, if yours is in great shape, is to do as you say "splash it and let
the wood swell".
I hope you can find a Triton owner who will advise you. Good luck.
I want to get measurements for the total length of the rudder shaft from the tiller head down to the tip of the boss. I measured this the last time my boat was out for a bottom job but I seem to have lost the piece of paper I wrote it on! All the boats are slightly different so I know any numbers I look at will probably not be what my Ariel’s shaft is precisely. I did make a pattern of the rudder and that has survived! For Reference is a list of measurements provided by commander Pete some years ago and another photo of my Rudder in better days. At the last haul out the wood looks thin from years of sanding to the point where the third board was warping away from the second board. It’s now still 1 inch thick at the shaft and less than 1/2 inch thick at the trailing edge of the third plank, which is starting to “fail!” The yard encapsulated it (third pic) but their experience has been that it’s a stop gap measure and it will delaminate over the next two or three years. So I will build a new one following the existing design. It is truly astounding how long a Mahogany rudder will last in salt water!
Anyone who still has their total rudder shaft length measurement hanging around on a piece of paper that hasn’t been lost should post it for me! It would be great if I had a few more than just Commander Pete’s. I know they will all be different but if they are all in the same ballpark, I could just have mine cut a little bit on the longer side, have the keyway cut a little longer, and then cut the top to the right size for my boat. I’m assuming, and that may be bad, that the differences in the length wouldn’t amount to more than an inch or so. But then again Pearson wasn’t known for measuring twice and cutting once! Oh, I forgot to mention that since I have an outboard model, I will go with a single piece shaft.
Also, my experience with the gaps between the planks when on the hard and the rudder has dried out a little bit completely disappear when submerged in the water. Those gaps are nonexistent when the boat is first hauled. My existing rudder is constructed with drift pins.
OK, hope this helps. Happen to still have the rudder that came with (then called SunQuest)
I found the worn groove in the cup to be wide but the machining in the bottom of the groove was
still pretty tight. So rather than custom making a truncated key out of larger key rod (which later
wld be stupid to replace) I used regular square 1/4" and added two set screws thru the side of
the cup and cone-pointed them into the key -- seems pretty tight!!
Sorry seems so complicated. But you do have actual measures here, but whether it's Factory
it's probably not exact. But Could be!!!
The litlgull hydrofoil rudder is covered on ebb's gallery page.
WOW look at nthis most of this mpost erased itself (anybody download it?????"?""?"?"?"?
Hey Ebb, thanks for the quick reply to this. I haven’t posted in a couple years and I need to do more as I do some redo and maintenance on my boat. I’m going to re-read your post and digest it. Then I may have some follow-up questions. An important take away is your emphasis on the alignment of everything.
I had taken a screen shot of your post and it’s attached a few posts below
Ebb, I had tried to get a rough estimate of the shaft length looking at the drawing in the manual, and found that a total length was not on the drawing unless I missed it. It shows the two piece inboard shaft. I estimated the missing straight piece of shaft for an outboard model by using blocks on a piece of graph paper using the 10” dimension on the drawing. The estimate doing this is 14.5” for the straight shot in the middle of the rudder/shaft drawing. So when I added it all up, 30” + 14.5”+ 24 3/4”= 69 1/4”............ exactly what you measured out was needed for your new shaft! I notced. in the drawing revision notes that the upper shaft was modified in 1965 for the commander, which seems to imply that it may measure differently than an Ariel. In 1962 the upper Ariel shaft was shortened to 30”— hummmm, wonder why!
Great! I hjad a quantity left over. How many years has it Been?
Still have a couple pieces of form to glue in.
What surprised me the most, my gluing also has held up!, the
hull is non-porus, and the foam is closed cell, I worried about the
glue not drying or setting. Waited til the "last minute" holding
the rubber off (past its repositioning window) then carefully
pressing it onto the hull. I got such a positive join that a painter
I hired began painting the foam "thinking" it was the hull.
Good on us!!
Noticed that the long carefull measurement post above has eraswed itself, I HATE computers
It's called "operator error!"
Kent, please keep the subject on the rudder here. Other subjects - water based glue, etc. - should be posted in your Gallery thread.
Ebb, I had an image copy of your message that I’m posting below.
FANTASTIC, KENT.
But I had gone back in the text after your download and 'corrected' it..
where I had thought my finish cut was two (or so) inches longer. But, no, here
we see in Kent's research that ebb, mucking about, has somehow come out
with what is probably
THE ACTUAL OA STOCK LENGTH OF THE RUDDER. [69 1/4"]
(That used to be called serendipity.)
(Not withstanding Com. Pete who probably has given this to us years ago,
BUT that the cockpit in the Commander might be higher because extra crew
Pearson may have been allowed for, therefor a higher waterline for the cockpit
sole. Thus maybe a longer stock on the Commander rudder.
{Why does the Commander have those higher and very handsome coamings?
AND Commander's have no bridge usually, which would allow seats to be
positioned higher up.)
That is: unless Kent has shown us otherwise,
that the rudder's in the Ariel and Commander are exactly equal.
__________________________________________________ _____________
Talking about tillers .. TILLER DISCUSSIONS .. on the first page
Commander Pete has an old/new photo of two tillers side by side..
This where ebb obviously got the idea.
I do believe the tiller should be down, or in the housed position,
when underway and steering. Because of the heavy loads the
tiller has to deal with. Also in the no-knee-bang cobra position
when sitting, the bowed tiller is easily handed, push and pulled..
GO SEE.
__________________________________________________ ____
The more gradual curve of C'Pete's curved tiller, makes me
think that his is an off-the-shelf class Ranger tiller. Only a higher
bow will clear knees.
Reply to Hull 376
I measured the length of the bronze shaft on what I presume to be the original mahogany rudder on my 1965 Pearson Ariel (Hull #330) today, Nov 30, 2020. I removed and replaced that rudder in 2018. I have not removed the shaft from the rudder. I have been storing the rudder intact in my shed since it was replaced in 2018.
My boat is an outboard model. As you are aware, the rudder shafts on both the inboard and outboard models were manufactured in two parts, so the overall length of the shafts would be dependent on the actual dimensions of the wood rudder to which the shaft is attached.
I suppose there could have been some longitudinal shrinkage of the wood, which could have reduced the length of the shaft overall, but I can’t think of any reason why the shaft would be longer today than it was on the day it was removed from the boat.
In any case, the shaft that I measured today was just over 70 inches (between 70 inches and 70 1/16 inches, but it was closer to 70 inches than it was to 70 1/16 inches). My measurement was made with a metal tape measure stretched from the top of the shaft to the bottom including the boss at the bottom. So that would make it longer than the 69 1/4 inches that you came up with from the drawing and Ebb's measurement of the new shaft length on his boat. Our boats were built in different years. There could have been some variation between years and perhaps even between individual boats manufactured during the same year.f
Hey Scott, howzitgoin!!
Great we're weighing in on this subject! My 72" measurement came from
the length of the stock when I bought it. Also I had a working well and just
assumed I would have a single length shaft.
When playing around with the blade shape. completely forgot the two piece
shaft.
And when I got into hydrofoils, decided the propeller hole in the rudder had
to be ignored. The top of the rudder, sticking out, with Kent doing the
actual measuring from the drawing, and confirming what I got "mucking
about",
is not proof of anything -- but gratifying. (even tho I thot I was making the
rudder shaft a little longer..) Can ascribe this to length of old age. But to
serendipity of Kent's independent confirmation from the drawing. And it's
Scott who has the longer rudder!!
BUT, Ebb thinks there is only one, maybe two, drawings in the Manual that
are signed by Alberg. All others seem to be not quite so accurate copies from
the copiers. [Look at the size of the cabin windows the copiers didn't copy so
well.. On the drawings of Ariels.]
3/4" seems about the right amount to have good warm discussions about..
along with our favorite libations.. and a platter of savory horse doers.
I have attached a photo of the top end of the rudder shaft with the tiller removed. This photo was taken in 2010. The photo shows the top of the original bronze shaft on my boat (Hull 330). At the time that this photo was taken, I had just replaced the plastic bushing and lubed the top end of the shaft. As you can see in the photo, the shaft extends some distance above the fiberglass shaft tube.
Scott, Looks right!
But if that's right, you needed that extra 3/4".
And you know, with no OB cowl and tiller intruding,
some extra height could be gained with a longer shaft!!
Here the problem comes when the tiller is upright
to tame it in the cockpit. how much room for the
upright tillerhead is required.
Tillerhead is quite close to the end of the cockpit there.
Ebb,
I really don't have any problem with the existing rudder post position or tiller configuration. I do not feel that I need to extend the rudder shaft or use a modified tiller. I steer the boat with my outboard handle protruding forward through the open lazarette hatch while motoring with the lazarette hatch wide open. I get more fresh air to the outboard that way anyway.
The tiller on my boat is most likely the original 1965 stock tiller. The tiller design works well when I am steering by hand or when either my main sheet or jib sheet self-steering gears are steering the boat. I have the self-steering gears engaged most of the time that I am sailing. The boat will steer a steady course in relation to the wind for miles and miles. I only use the motor to get in and out of the harbor and of course at times when there is no wind....unless of course I am rowing the boat.
Scott, just meant the aft leaning rudder shaft if lengthened
would at some point run into trouble from the very aft hinged
tiller. Depending on what kind of OB we have clamped to the
riser right there at the opening to the lazaret. I'm not
advocating anything -- and on the Ariel in my life, I wouldn't
dare alter the rudder-tube that the rudder shaft extends
from on the cockpitsole. The OA lengths of our rudders is
entirely dependent on where the keyslot is cut and where it
terminates.
What's most important is that Augustine is still sailing. That
is absolutely marvelous.
And merely off the top of my baldinghead, because I do
remember you're explaining the sailing gear to us, but for my
failing eyes the accompanying photos were too small. Don't
know whether I'll ever have the boat balanced correctly,
because of my whimsical changes to the boat.
Another subject, better stop before I get a warning from
the Admiral.
Be perfect to have a video here of your method.
In the correct cubbyhole of course.
Ebb,
Actually I did make some videos of my self steering system, which feature studio narration and background music, I cannot post those on-line for various reasons. I have used two of them in some for the classes that I teach. I could potentially share one or more of those videos with you in a Zoom session.
However I built a web page devoted to the subject. The URL for that page is: http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm
The photos are small to preserve band width, but the narrative explains how to build such a system. If you would like, I can send larger versions of some of the photos to you by e-mail.
Back to rudders, I understand your point. I merely wished to say thatI have not felt a need to alter the original location and/or design of tiller.
My motor is clamped on the riser (motor mount) in the lazarette, but the handle does not protrude forward through the small front hatch aft of the tiller post. By the way, I installed a permanent louvered vent in that hatch to promote air flow in the engine compartment. You can see the bottom edge of that vent in the photo that I posted earlier on this thread. Instead, the motor handle protrudes upward and slightly forward of the large to lazarette hatch. It does not interfere with the traveler or with the tiller in that position. If I choose to do so, I can close the hatch to rest open the end of the motor handle, but I usually don't. Of course I cannot close the hatch fully with the motor running. After I shut the motor down, I just fold the handle back and then close the hatch.
Outboard related post moved to outboard thread. It's there, but it's not showing in the thread heading for some reason.
I'm making a replacement 3 plank rudder similar to the one on the boat right now (6" w 4/4 Honduran Mahogany). I've been practicing the construction using pine and a cool used ancient Dowl-It jig I found cheap on Ebay compared to the new ones (lots of bad copies being sold that don't work as advertised. Looks like a company bought Dowel-It, stopped making the old model which has been around since 1940s, and is now charging way more for newer models probably made in China instead of Michigan, and reviews of copies complain they don't center properly, cheaper parts, poor machining of parts) Thinking about 3/8 silicon bronze rod x 16 tapped, mated to 5/8" deep machined holes into the 1" rudder shaft (new straight shaft for my outboard model, and bolts with nuts extending well into board 2 from board 1 next to the shaft. Drifts will connect trailing board 3 to board 2. Drifts at opposing angles to prevent board 3 from loosening up from 2, except for small gaps due to wet/dry cycle) Lots of great info on wooden boat forum on how to do drifts the right way. Anyway, I have two construction questions:
1. This will be traditional construction. Mahogany + silicon bronze fasteners. No glue, no 3M stuff, nothing rolled on, painted on (except bottom paint), or squeezed on. Current rudder is 50 years+ old, and that's how its built. But to drill the longish holes for the fasteners, I still need to hold the planks together. Could use external straps screwed at the joints before drilling. Could use interior wood glue that would "dissolve" when immersed in the water. I want something that keeps everything in alignment during drilling, but want the planks to be able to move on the fasteners during wet/dry cycles, like my current rudder does. I thought of using clamps, but thy get in the way, won't work on the curved planks because I need to cut the wood to pattern to drill the opposed angle drift holes. What do you folks think about the two options I've come up with, or are there other options?
2. I'm worried about the alignment of the tapped machined holes on the shaft and my ability to get them aligned with holes drilled in the wood. I admit it: I have mediocre measuring and woodworking skills! If I'm off a smidge, it seems that I won't be able to slide the pieces together without introducing misalignment stress in the wood. So how to make sure that the pieces mate? With through holes in the shaft, I could always start the holes in the wood through the shaft, then finish with the Dowl-It on the rudder. But that kind of defeats the purpose of having "elegant". as ebb says, tapped holes only part way through the shaft, as Tim describes above. The other option I thought of would be to cut small threaded pieces of 3/8" rod, screw them into the tapped holes in the shaft, then align the rudder to the shaft and tap the shaft to leave some marks on the leading edge of the rudder. Am I over thinking this? I just don't want to find out that a hole isn't matched exactly to the shaft holes.
Some pics of pine practice.
Makes a big difference in how you drill the holes. Wooden Boaters said to drill very slowly don’t use speed bits they wander off and make sure you don’t drill more than a few inches at a time without removing the wood chips. I tried drilling really fast just to see what happens and it doesn’t look very good! But going slowly removing the chips as they recommended gives you straight holes every time. They also recommend using a Dowling jig.
In the last photo the left two are drifts pounded into undersize holes and the right two are bolts. The holes are about 11 inches
Years ago I mailed to the Admiral what I thot is a simplified version
of making a full length, no prop cut-out, three-board rudder. It
used the rudder drawings in the Manual. Don't remember why it
wasn't useful. It used internal threaded rod tapped into the 1"
shaft stock. Plan could have been redrawn for a two-piece rudder
shaft.
Suggest using Honduras mahogany and Everdur, 655 bronze. Silicon
bronze is readily available, but, of course, we pay a premium price
for it. Original wood/bronze rudders lasted decades/years in and
out of the water, drying out, resoaking and working all that time.
I think using stainless in salt water is asking for trouble.
Ebb, I’m building new 3 plank mahogany rudder similar to your old post. Will post pics eventually. But a question for you: what if anything to squirt in the tapped 3/8” x 5/8” holes in the silicon bronze Shaft when installing the threaded rods to allow them to be removed, but also to prevent them from backing out. Definitely not 5200! Pressure from tightening the nut on the outboard threaded end should prevent loosening, but as boards relax when drying on the hard takes off the stress on the shaft, they could loosen, but maybe not. Ive gotten input from the wooden boat forum on some aspects of my construction, but they don’t build rudders that connect to a shaft like ours. The designs seem to be mostly gudgeons and pintles.
Kent, have fun with the project.
Ultimate materials will be: All silicon bronze,
and Honduras Mahogany.
Since you are using s. bronze thruout, you won't
need to seal the holes. Apply a couple drops of
Blue 242 Loctite to the male threads.
If you are worried about water getting in, a wet
application on all the threads (but not the bottom
of the threaded rod) may make it difficult to
sheer the seal later.
Henkel has a Technical Data Sheet.
The product is made for disassembly..
Thanks ebb. I use blue Locktite on my cycling shoes to keep the screws that mount the cleats from coming loose. Takes a bit of effort to remove them, but they do break free!
Kent, Thinking about how many threads you're going to get
in the blind 3/8" 5/8" deep threaded hole in the shaft. And
how many of them you will have that actually will be holding
the first two planks onto the shaft. Actually holding the
rudder together.. for all time. Daunting!
WHY NOT TO USE BLUE242
Your choices are 16 and 24 threads per inch taps. Even the
bottoming tap doesn't thread all the way to the bottom of
the hole. Let's say 1/2" max, with incompleat turns into the
curve of the 1" stock.
Maybe half inch will get you six full threads? Or 9-10 if you
make fine threads. I don't think any corrosion occurs in the
silicon to silicon connection. But the blade of the rudder
will cause some stress on the fastnings where they enter
the shaft.
Fine thread removes less metal than coarse from the 3/8"
diameter of the rod. You will be coving the edge of the
first plank where the wood meets metal. If you are
making the traditional 2 piece bent shaft model with the
opening for a propeller.. you have opportunity for even
less attachment of threaded rod to shaft.
You will be using nuts on the opposite side of the first
two planks of a three plank blade. I don't believe
H. Mahogany swells much when it gets wet. I somehow
believe the wood does not get very wet inside. the
cracks in a new rudder will for years be quite narrow
when the boat is regularly on the hard.
Of course I don't know this for a fact, just guessing.
But everyone agrees the rudder 'swells' up tight just as
regularly!
If you are imagining disassembling the rudder sometime
in the future, sliding a plank up 3 or four bolts will be
impossible, Sheering Blue242 bond using the nut end
will be just as impossible. I can not imagine the 3/8" rods
unscrewing themselves.
I'd more likely be using Tefgel or Lanocote to primarily
assemble the rods.. and drive them hard into the tapped hole,
down where the thread looses definition and the thread on
the rod deforms and hopefully creates a lock that way.
imco it is better to keep salt water out of the screw joint.
Ebb would probably use Tefgel -- slather the threads, but not
the bottom, so the rod goes in all the way.. whew!
__________________________________________________
Since I'm babbling here. and it's past 4am -- one last burble:
Why not get a toothpaste tube of 5200(!), 4200, Siklaflex
rubber and seal the wood cove to the bronze stock. This
may stop any drying out or swelling in this joint. And help
to keep the blade from moving at this juncture. Keep the
goop away from the rod joints. OR NOT ! !
You and I know It would be a big mistake to use rubber glue
between the planks..
Original bronze and H.Mahogany lasted fifty years hanging on
the end of a plastic boat. Very few were ever taken apart
for 'maintenance'. Attempting to seal/bond the wood to metal
joint, that IS the rudder, is futile.
Ebb, I will go for 3/4” depth for machined holes. Probably have 8 good threads with 16 threaded bar. 24 threaded harder to find in silicon bronze 3/8”. I have 6 bolts, straight shaft (outboard) don’t think flex is going to be a problem. Some of the larger rudder designs may induce more stress at the shaft.
Kent - I've just got to say "Goodonya" for undertaking such a project, and let you know I hope it comes out perfect. Salut! :)
Keep us posted, and like Frank always says "Mo' pics!" :)
Thanks for the encouragement Kurt! I’m moving right along with this project and will post pictures when it’s about done. Not doing anything the next few days as this cold front is going to bring 15° or lower temperatures to Houston. Too busy bundling up the banana trees and palm trees right now! Say Bill, would you rather I posted the Rudder project on my boat page or put it here?
Your boat page would be more appropriate. Thanks
Posted my mahogany rudder replacement in the Gallery: A—376 Afloat http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...6-Afloat/page3 It starts about halfway down the page.
THANKS for posting the link.
Say ebb, the copper keeper strap is about 1” wide, I think, and you mentioned it’s doubled over 3 times? And what gauge (how thick) is the copper strap before doubling it over? By the way, my new mahogany rudder has darkened to a nice brown— I’ll name that color brown dog.....
Kent, Friendly name for a fine brownish!
noticed the 'discrepancy'. But when installing my cast bronze gudgeon,
remembered, and checked to see which side of the boat the rudder stock would drop.
On litlgull the rudder will only drop past the rudder shoe on the port side.
Don't think that ended up in the Manual, but it's good to know, and that's why we
don't have a bearing in the hole at the hull-end of the rudder tube like Triton's have.
Pearson just made the tube a little 'off'! And skipped having to remove the rudder
shoe to drop the blade, or have two sets of gudgeons, like the Triton's.
Post above just disappeared about 5" in the middle of post.
Just GONE.
I may come back. I may not.
LAST TRY. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION
THE GUDGEON STRAP
I saw in this forum perhaps, was rather thin copper sheet
with both edges bent in flat with a center seam, can't recall, but wider than
an inch. This gave the strap a nice rounded pro look. With that in mind,
look on amazon for copper sheet. This came up:
2 Pcs 99.9%+ Pure Copper Sheet 6"x 6", 20 Gauge (0.81mm), Film
Attached (both sides protected). {China product} $14.99
Don't think strap gudgeon will be longer than 6"*. But pure copper may be too
soft. Working it (bending as I described) might stiffen it, and the 'layering'
will make it about 1/16". You could make a strap with 3 or 4 layers, bending
it over on itself. PURE copper, because additions like tin will stiffen it (becomes
bronze), and lead might leach.
*Better make a pattern first, at least 8 or 9" length may be needed.
This is just an idea. But I know you know what you are doing!! The strap has
to bend when you remove the rudder. But it's not under strain much when
you knock the rudder up when grounding. It's use is to aim the stock end
back into its recess. [May the old pagan water gods be kind!]
The rudder drops on my Ariel on the PORT side. You could make a fastening
reusable by tapping its hole for a machine screw, If the keel lay up is too fibrous,
Q-tip liquid epoxy into hole, let it set, and retap for coarse thread bronze
machine screw(s). (I'd go large like 1/4" - 5/16"..) Just an idea.
You are going to come back to it one day, and you should recognize by your
fastening (don't bottom paint over it) which side the strap unscrews. So that
it's always exactly where it should be when you button it back up later.
amazon: 18 Ga Copper Sheet Metal, 6"x 12" 24.99. Brand: Copper wire USA.
Material: Copper 110 (99.99% electrical grade, may have plastic film one side)
Online find: .basic copper. Use their friendly 'copper sheet thickness guide' to look
up the 20 gauge sheet, where they show a homemade sheet bender being used
to control the bend of this dead soft material. So don't get this 18Ga gauge copper.
[ 18 gauge is about 1/20" - 16 gauge is about 1/16" - either will be hard or
impossible to bend lengthwise]
It can't be bent. 20gauge is the limit, and they say it will be difficult.
Maybe you can use just an unfolded 18Ga strip? So, leave it for you to find a
larger or heavier sheet of electrical 99.99% pure copper. Maybe thinner gauge sheet
folded over on itself twice or three times (3 layers) is the answer. Just ideas..
99.99% will never harden or get brittle or corrode always pliable.
Bye now
Thanks ebb. Sorry for the disappearing ink poltergeist. Good info and some ideas I can try out. I like the bolt idea, can’t say peining rod is something I have a craving for!
Say ebb, sometime pretty soon on haul out I’m going to install the new rudder and shaft that I built earlier this year. I’m also going to replace my rudder shoe with a silicon bronze replica made by Frank Pomeranz back in 2004. I knew eventually I needed to put it on the boat. The original is pink, indicating dezincification. I know you replaced your shoe and I need your opinion on something related to the install. it seems to me that the shaft must fit perfectly into the shoe that is to say the angle has to be perfect in order to have the shaft pivot without binding at all on the rudder shoe. Did you block the new rudder shoe into position and then finagle the exact position with the shaft in the bearing? It seems to me that just installing the new shoe with the old “peen” holes through the keel may not position the new shoe exactly. Any other steps You might’ve taken to make sure the shoe and the shaft were in perfect alignment? Previously you mentioned that the rudder will probably drop to port and someone else posted that you need at least three cement blocks and a little bit more to be able to drop it out if it’s sitting on a concrete surface. I don’t want to tell the yard I need to jack hammer the concrete and then dig a hole! Ha ha!
Also, peening is not easy! How about 5/8 silicon bronze bolts! I have some and the slotted heads fit perfectly in the shoe predrilled holes which are countersunk. Having lock washer and nuts exposed on the opposite side may slow my boat speed by .0001 knots / hour, but if I leave two of the bolts protruding, ha haaa- I have an attachment point for the shoe zinc!
not finished extensive post completely erased
have in the paast found such but not this time
i'm pissed maybe later yo abswewr kent
SOME IDEAS ON MARRYING THE REPLICA RUDDERSHOE TO THE KEEL
Kent, You have a predrilled hole in the shaft 'landing' on the rudder shoe.
Normal to be a 3/4" by 3/4" deep hole, It shld be right angle to the flat.
Which is right angle to the slant of the keel. The end of the 1"D stock is
milled down to 3/4"D X 3/4" length. Snug fit, use TefGel when assembling
no gell on shaft bottom.
Notice you have very little frp material remaining in that stub that has to
support heavy rudder shoe and even heavier rudder, tillerhead and tiller.
Sounds like your replica won't slip over the stub and cozy against the ledge
from the old one. Get it snug and the shaft landing
is right angle to the cove in the keel..
Get a dead straight six foot 1" dowel (Constantines***)..
use it to make sure the dowel is evenly spaced down the full length of
keel's cove -- from the center of the rudder tube in the cockpit.
(***They only have 36", so you'll have to butt-join, it's only temporary.
Years ago their mahogany dowels were exact measure, 1" is 1" and
they were dead straight. Try finding that at your local bigbox. And yes,
I wld epoxy butt-join. Dowel gives a visual exactness to this measure.)
After much dry fitting, line the inside of the shoe with Seranwrap, fill all
holes dips on the stub with wet epoxy mixed with chopped strand**, and
using a carjack if appropriate seat the replica tight against the old ledge..
Thoroly wet the stub down with a bristle brush and plain 2-part, then
wipe it off, you can't get it dry, with a rag -- you want the structural filler to
stick to the repairs, but you want the epoxy-soak for bond. This soak is
done at the same time as the paste and assembly. Pour off a bit of 2-part
and quickly wet, jab with brush, dry with rag.. in 30 seconds, pretend
you're BobRoss making a cloud.
(Must use a polyethylene film. Seranwrap is really the best.)
.. .. ..
This thing with the jack: dry fit will have gone thru every step. you have
factored in a little wiggle room to get the fitting exactly where you want.
You want squeeze out, but you'll be able to fix things when you remove the
fitting -- use a non-glue bedding compound for final assembly. If you
have a close fit, consider TefGel, no rubber.
(**In cup mix 2-part laminating epoxy, add a modicum of 1/4-1/2" chopped
strand, mix well, then add the fumed-silica to make a paste. First wet the
frp stub with plain 2-part then wipe it off with a cotton rag -- this assures
you get a bond with the filler paste.)
[ One of the two things ebb did to help support the huge weight of the
rudder system (rudder shoe, 20lbs of rudder stock and lbs of rudder blade,
tillerhead, tiller, and hand on tiller)..
was to drive two long bronze lag screws up thru the bottom of the shoe into
what ever there is in that narrow part of the keel. Had barely enuf room to
drill the holes, there may be enuf meat for the hexheads* to pull themselves
in.] (Cld argue about this)
(*Hexhead lags, because if you ever have to remove the rudder shoe, you
merely grind the hexheads off! Have to live with the lumps on the very
bottom of the keel and remember the lags are there. Since the bolts
are never coming out --and you're not totally happy withwhat you found when
predrilling the holes, oversize the holes a bit, use a dowel stick with a rag
and wet the holes inside with runny epoxy as best you can -- make a bit of
paste, epoxy and fumed-silica, slather the threads of the lagscrews and
HAMMER THEM TIGHT UPTO THE RUDDER SHOE. Gets epoxy way up inside
in unknown territory, and the lags are captured forever. Crazy, but it worked
for me.)
The rudder shoe shld fit within the streamlining of the hull. The space-
finding dowel trick shld find the fore-n-aft of the shaft position. The vertical
position of the shaft 'landing' shld be exactly right angle to the shaft along
the cove in the keel. The cove shld be easy to prep and fair to the gelcoat.
Center the dowel in the rudder tube, it shld be centered at the landing.
Because Pearson had to do some finaggeling to allow the completed rudder
to pass the keel ('on the port side') when commissioning and off, there'll
be a mental bellcurve. One clue is to sight down the rudder tube to see
which sjde of the keel is commissioned! Tube may be crooked, but the
rudder (rudder-shaft) is absolutely straight.
Sorry, I don't know the measure of the dowel-shaft from the cove, my
rudder situation was very different from yours. The method suggested is
only an idea, opinion in modern parlance. But it is decided by the pre-
drilled hole for the shaft in the shoe landing. Have to get the right angles
correct or the 3/4-3/4 hole will become a problem. Dowel it!
Think the hardness of Si-bronze and 316 are close to equal. But drilling is
easier thru bronze.
Goes without saying: you have planned and predrilled the 'peening' holes
thru the sides of the bronze shoe. Locate where the vertical lag bolt holes
are going and drill them out too before assembly. Forget what we have
down there: 1 1/2" width of frp keel? Odd drilling holes under the keel,
the predrilled holes in the bronze will help keep the new longish bolts jn
the center of the narrow 2" wide keel.
Let's hope the replica is the marrying kind.
I'VE ADDED SOME MORE STUFF HERE.. BEST TO YOU, CAPTAIN KENT ! !
Thanks ebb – – you always know what you are doing which is great for me because I usually don’t! I kind of expected I’d have to fair in some FRP to get the new shoe to fit properly into whatever is left at the bottom of the keel but the idea with the 1” dowel is fantastic and I would never have thought of it! Using a car jack to get all the stuff in the right position with all the weight is another great suggestion. Last time I used the car jack on the boat was when I strengthened the strong back and jacked it up to put the stainless steel bar in place.
Ebb, thanks for the additional info you inserted in your initial reply above. You are a real reservoir of information on these antique plastic classics. The shoe I have should marry pretty well to the keel. Dimensionally, Fred Pomeranze did a great job making the mold back in 2004. I think several of us ordered them at the time. Here I am 17 years later finally slapping it on the boat!
Ebb, any thoughts why traffic on the site for new posts has fallen off? My theory is that we’ve covered just about every nook and cranny, bolt, mod, spar, through hole, etc and the internet visitors are just checking out the books from our library……
Traffic has fallen off for the past ten years. Many members have moved on and the new owners of their yachts have not seen fit to join the board. And, they can easily search everything by just using Google. Except for Ebb, most of our more prolific posters have left the scene. Unfortunately, they never let us know why . . .
This post might refer back to 487, and the subject has been written about
by ebb either here or in the gallery pages. That area, the HEEL of the KEEL
where the rudder shoe is dapped into the fiberglass is by design a problem.
There is a huge amount of weight and leverage concentrated here. No
amount of finesse seems to me to be possible to get an adequate lay-up
of polyester resin and matt-glass in this narrow, tight and difficult pocket.
This hull, needless to say the whole class of Ariel/Commander's, had to be
laminated as a single unit. It made the back third of the hull a challenge
do properly. Imagine how hard it would be if you had to lay-up the inside
of your garbage can with poly and matt, it'd be a mess.
When I finally got A338's ruddershoe off, found that the outer half, the end,
was broken chunks of plastic. No glass reinforcement, The shoe had been
held in place with a single pin (that had been crudely removed and replaced
with a small bolt that held a zinc against against the bronze shoe.. WHICH
WAS PITTED & CORRODED.
The boat had a homemade rectangularish rudder with a stainless shaft. Tried
to find out how stainless cld make bronze into an anode.. Did latter find a
more probable answer.
So, made an attempt to rebuild the naked end of the keel. There's little that
can be done. Here used the elegant cheat of using the ruddershoe to mold
the repair. Had to straighten the sides of the shoe that had been seriously
bent inward by later bolts used to keep the obviously slipping shoe in place.
There wasn't much the glass in my repair had to hold on to.
So, the long upward lag screws idea blinked ON. Desperation is a great
motivator. Hope it works this time, I've cheated alot. I wonder if The Pearson
Boys thought it through. Haven't added it up: there's an astonishing amount
of bronze weight concentrated on very end of our keel.
Imagine what it was like to lay-up the stern with the toxic fumes of MEK
and polyester resin kicking off.. they had to be inside the hull to work..
masks, fans, what did they have back then?
__________________________________________________ ________
Had a few conversations with Roger Winiarski, proprietor of BristolBronze.
He told me something I cldn't believe, but then whom else is as good as his
word? He said BristolBronze been Pearson's supplier of round bar and fittings.
OK, but then he said, the bronze was manganese bronze, a very strong alloy
that casts into the beautiful things like winches and other deck gear.
Like I say, Couldn't believe it..! He assured me it was so.
The rudder shaft in many saltwater A/C's gets corroded at the waterline inside
the rudder tube that passes thru the bustle. Well, Why?
ManganeseBronze (58%copper - 39%zinc - .8%manganese) is nothing more
than a high tensil BRASS. It has too much zinc in it for it to stay in alloy. In
salt water it turns into a battery and self destructs, corrodes. Copper alloys
are moderately resistant to dezincification at 15% zinc. SiliconBronze 96%copper,
2.5-6%silicon, plus a pinch of a bunch of other metals including manganese,
lead and zinc and will still be intact 1000 years in ocean water. No guarantee.
Course Correction
I decided to make a new rudder. The old rudder was perfectly fine however, the aperture was too small for the feathering prop I wanted to install. Also, I felt too much correction with the rudder was necessary in moderate to heavy air. I hate to mess with the original Alberg design. It is elegant and compliments the lines of the boat perfectly. However, I suspect my boat may have been delivered with a taller than standard rig. (Perhaps it was a Great Lakes – light air modification.) My P measurement is 1′ longer than than standard. Seat of the pants engineering led me to decide I needed to add 15% additional surface area on the trailing edge to help with the increased main sail area.
Initially I planned to open up the aperture and scarf some wood to the trailing edge but this started to look too hacked together.
Attachment 10519
Abandoned Modification
Back to the drawing board. remove the original bronze shafts and build a new rudder. Luckily I happened across a 6/4 x 24″ mahogany board that would allow a one piece replacement. It is a testament to the quality of the bronze that Pearson used that, after almost 60 years, when I removed the nut access windows, the bronze tie rods unscrewed like they were assembles yesterday. Once removed, I used an induction heater to heat up the upper shaft and bend it back 30 degrees to allow for the larger aperture.
Next step is to make a template for the new rudder. I installed the new prop then made a Masonite blank and experimented with shapes that cleared the new prop, had the additional surface area, and looked like they belonged to this classic design.
Attachment 10520
Once I decided on a shape I cut the plank to the new shape, ran the leading edge through a router with a 1″ rounding bit to accept the upper and lower shafts, drilled holes for the tie rods, then using a 1 1/2″ hole saw made windows for the new nuts.
Attachment 10521
New rudder faired with nut windows filled.
Next step is to install, coat with epoxy barrier coat and bottom paint.
On the boat
Attachment 10522
Barrier Coated with IP 2000 E
Attachment 10523
Bottom Painted and ready to go