What is the biggest genny anyone flies on an Ariel or Commander?
Anyone gone with a 180 or 200?
How about chutes?
I don't care about class racing rules, I'm thinking more nitro dragster .
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What is the biggest genny anyone flies on an Ariel or Commander?
Anyone gone with a 180 or 200?
How about chutes?
I don't care about class racing rules, I'm thinking more nitro dragster .
A cautionary tale about BIG headsails and the wind.
The race began about 1:00 PM and as the afternoon progressed, the wind began picking up. Although we seemed to be sailing ok, we kept falling behind the fleet. Finally, we dragged across the finish line pretty close to last. To emphasize our condition, a few moments before we crossed the line we met the committee boat picking up the last of the marks! :( This finish was as bad as the one we had at our first outing last year when the genoa track was improperly placed.
Watching the boats we usually stay ahead of begin sailing away from us, I kept wondering what we were doing wrong. Our sail trim appeared to be the same as before and we were pointing well, but we were just not moving. Maybe I should have had the bottom scrubbed?
At the post race gathering, we learned why we were so slow. The old "Bay Fox," Ernie Rideout, said that we were falling behind because we were "overpowered." We should have taken down the 155% genoa and used the working jib. Pathfinder (Ernie’s boat) went with their 120% genoa and Cat Walk, the other Ariel, used a working jib. And they both walked away from us.
I'm not sure about the wind range for head sails, but it sure appears that in anything over 12 to 15 knots and you should not be using a 150. I assume a 120 will cover the 12 to 18 knot range (but I may be on the high side, Ed probably has a better estimate). If the wind is under 9 knots, maybe you could "effectively" use a larger headsail.
Ted Brewer is in Good Old Boat this month, with his 'Thoughts on sail plans'.
He is mainly advocating the 3/4 rig, but one of his points is that the CCA rule drove boats of our vintage to carry a higher ratio of headsail to main, and that this was a less efficient sail plan. The evidence he cites is the 5.5m class in the 60's where he says the rules were different and all boats eventually '"flew the minimum-size jib and maximum headsail as any other distribution of sail area resulted in a losing boat."
Kinda makes sense, that the overlap would be less efficient.
I wonder if a partially furled 155 could ever be faster then an unfurled 155?
In the summer , where I sail , we seldom see more than 9knots of wind .
I do a lot of beam reaching in 7 to 8kts for 10 miles then turn around and reach back . I borrowed a 175 and flew it in 7 knots and by the GPS I was doing nearly 6knots. With the class genny I was doing only 4 at best.
I'm sure I couldn't carry it to weather in a breeze and don't want to try, but it was fun in light air.
The guys I race with , we make lots of headsail changes and have a shelf full of silver . We fly a 190 on the C&C 40 .
Mike, have you given any thought to an asymetrical spinaker? Even though they are usually mentioned in conjunction with a bow sprit they work with just a simple tack I hear. Hood has their version called an MPG (multi-purpose genoa) that I've been eyeballing.
Bill, it's funny you should have that story to contribute. A while back I was talking with the sailmaker about headsails for 113. At that time I was leaning toward a 150 because I 'wanted the most bang for the buck'. After getting some information about our local weather and looking up info on Pearson Ariels, the sail maker, let's call him Joe, suggested a 130%. His reasoning was, if over powered with a 150 you can only put about five turns on the furler before you start to lose too much shape and then you're just over powered and going too slow on your ear. For less wind than the 130 could be flown use a MPG. At first I thought, 'yeah, just another way to clean out the bank account', but the more I read I think he really was telling the truth. He couldn't talk me out of thefull batten loose footed main though :D
A 170 must be close to a asymetrical spinaker!
you have to ask yourself at any time what you are doing.Racing ,Cruising ,anchoring ,etc.Our favorite sail on board is the "120".It is the best sail on board .Not too much or to little but there .I like the 150 but we always dump it eventually for the best sail, it just points better on the Ariel, the 120. Destination is the goal . Getting there is the equation................
I have a used, very big, light weight sail for a much larger boat .
I'm going to have it cut down to a large light air reacher for the Ariel and just haven't decided on how big. I'm thinking 180 to 200 .
I can get it cut down for a fraction of the price of a new genny or a MPG.
If I was going to spend any major bucks on sails, it would be a new main .
Right now I have an old main, and the 2 class sails and no more . I don't plan on racing the old gal other than a few novelty/charity races , just want to go faster in light air.
A lot of these old design boats react well to reefing the main and sailing on with a bigger genny. They dont round up overpowered that way or if they do , put in another reef . Used to race an old Bill Tripp design that way and we have trophies to prove the point.
What do you all mean by 120, 150% etc. As a kid in sea explorer scouts we had a working jib, a storm jib that was not much bigger than a peacoat :confused: and a genoa. Does anyone have any imformation on the HOYT jib boom, I've been told by someone at the yard that it increases the efficiency of the head sail; although, the person who told me that, I never have seen him take his boat out in two years. :confused:
Could someone expound on sheeting the 120 and 150? Do you run 'em outside on a reach/run, and re-route them inside when close hauled? Only thing i can see to do, but sure a pain in the, well, you know. I'd sure like to go sailing with someone who knew something! I run the sheets back to the genoa track, just ahead of the winches with the 120 and 150,and outside the shrouds,and use the fwd. inside deck track for the 100, inside the shrouds. Seems to work ok. :rolleyes:
Those pesky lower fwd. shrouds sure are a pain. And while i'm on that subject, i've seen those roller thingy's on some boats--(somewhere--not at my marina, as i'm all alone,) that go on the shrouds to keep the sail from chaffing on them. Anyone know of a cheap easy method or material for that purpose? I saw something advertized in a cruising mag. called 'baggy wrinkles' i think.... do they work? Just wondering what others do. I know my bowlines in the clew always hang up, have to do something about that, as the jib handler always wants to yank on things ya know. Have to remind myself not to yell! ;)
The 120%, 150%, etc., refer to the percentage of the fore triangle - approximately the area from the mast base to the bow and up to the mast head. Headsails are sized by percentages of that triangle.
For anything but the 110% working jib, all sheets go outside all the shrouds to the winches. For the 110, the sheets go outside the forward shourds and inside the other two.
The Pearson factory genoa track is placed too far aft for good sail shape with low clew genoas. Location for the 150's turning block is near the after end of the aft large window. The block for the 120 is closer to the aft shroud. Both tracks should be next to the toe rail. The factory jib track is usually too far aft and too close to the house.
Willie, you could try tying the bowlines so that the tail is on the outside and the smoother part of the knot passes over the shroud.
I've also seen some people use PVC pipe on the foward shroud as a roller.
What I did is use one single long line with a simple knot at the grommet. Loop the line in the middle. Push the loop through the grommet. Pull the ends of the line through the loop. That's it. Works well.
Mike, what name are you going to give the sail? Maybe "The Whomper"
Peter, thanks, that's too simple! And nice photo.
I did some digging around, i see some ash shroud rollers, and some pvc ones for about $55. Think i could make some for about 1/10 of that!
Going sailing. Supposed to be about 70 degrees, a bit of west wind. I'm outta here!! :cool:
Mike, A comment to your original question about sails larger than 150. For a number of years the #75 Ariel raced with a 180 jib. We would carry a 155. What we found was that if there was a long weather leg we would often climb to weather on him gaining distance. We would not see much difference in speed. Where the 75 would eat us up was on a reach that was too tight for a spinnaker. The skipper on the 75 would move the fair lead forward to close off the top of his jib and would go reaching right by us. I would guess he would carry at least an extra .5 – 1 knot of speed on a reach with that 180. Our goal was always try to climb to weather by pointing close hauled and wait and see how long we might be able to hold him off.
One point if anyone out there is a racer and wants to use a sail larger than 155%. Most governing bodies will ding you 3 – 6 seconds a mile on your rating for using a jib larger the 155% .
Here is the track location for the 155% on #76. The block is placed where the sail on our boat seems to perform best.
And, here is the location of the track for the 110% jib. We seem to use just the aftermost three holes -- go aft as the wind builds.
If you look at the 'fact sheet' from the website header, look at the sail diagram and you see a large genny outlined that comes aft of the house by nearly a foot. It is sheeted to a posistion on the track about where my winches are located. Is that a 180? In these parts that might move the boat in the summer.
Jealous Chesbay Sailor
Bill, went out with the small jib--i'd call mine about a 100%, as it doesn't overlap much, and has a pretty high clew.I routed the sheets between fwd. shroud and upper shroud, and it worked great! The block was set about the same spot as in your photo, but inboard more, next to cabin trunk. Interesting how the angle stays about the same with it sheeted in tight or out. Must have it lead about right. I took some pictures, but left camera on the boat! I know there is so much more to all this, like sail shape? Twist n the sail? I'm happy when the tell tales start going horizontal!
So what do i do about leach flutter now? lol From my perspective in the cockpit it seemed that the angle was pulling down more than out, which should be good for the leach flutter wouldn't it? Maybe the old thing is just pretty stretched out.
I'd like to do some sailing/racing sometime with some REAL sailors!
Maybe we should start a sailing lesson thread? Something like "How to sail your Ariel?" I know, it's been covered, do a search! lol
Yes, yes, yes.
Now let's have in the first chapter a layout,
A DRAWING OF THE WHOLE BOAT DECK
with all the pertinent positions of all jib's and genny clews
Start with factory,
Move to remedials, upgrades.
Go to what is current and optimum.
Type and size of track. Mounting options.
Rigging and blocks.
Sheets, sizes, camlocks, etc.
Best position, angle off coaming, and size winches.
Pictures,
Diagrams.
Advice from the experts.
Pictures of experts winning races.
Pictures of foredeck crew in proper uniform.
Leads on headsails,
New, recutting, recycle.
Dacron, new fabric.
Furling, reefing.
Bagging, Proper folding. Stowage.
In short, Everything!
Especially the foredeck crew in proper uniform! Think you about covered it Ebb!
My small crew from yesterday, ages 8,9,and 10, informed me we needed a jolly roger. So just ordered one. They insisted on the 3x5 model. Now i have to figure out how to fly the dang thing while they're onboard! Thinking the topping lift might work. This ought to be a sight going down the Columbia!
On a more serious note, my older daughter asks me "Dad, what would happen if you fell overboard?" To set the scene, it's just me and the 3 girls. Water is maybe 50 degrees now. They have no idea how to sail the boat, (well, they like to steer her a bit, but that's about it at this point) how to use the vhf, or even the cell phone most likely, in an emergency. So we talked. And did some teaching. Don't really know what would happen, but it wouldn't be good.I was glad to get home safe and sound. Nobody fell in. But for some reason, it worried me the whole time we were out. Maybe it was just knowing you wouldn't be able to do much after 10 or 15 min. in the water.Don't know if i could make it back aboard if i was able to get to the boat. I've been in the water for about an hour when it's that cold, and it's no fun. You get to a point where you can't even think, let alone do anything but shiver. And shiver. Anyway,
I think the best solution would be to have mom along next time. She knows how to sail, at least good enough maybe she'd run me over on the way back to get me! Short of that, we all wear lifejackets of course, don't go fwd. unless absolutely necessary, and then just me, and just be very very careful.
The thought of them alone out there on the boat, or watching them hit the rocks is pretty sobering. Maybe the best thing would be to have them drop the sails and release sheets, throw the life ring, put boarding ladder over the side, and call for help. Don't really know if the vhf would do much, think the cell and 911 would be better. I do know we have a busy summer ahead teaching them to handle the boat. ;)
Y'know Bill,
It's not going to be long befor all your young crew will know how to sail.
But if you fell in, now by golly, what would you like to happen on the boat?
Maybe show them how to depower the sailboat
so at least you might swim back to it? Then what - but that's something else.
Coming about or tacking maybe not, but how about jibing? Could they untangle the lifering?
Something that doesn't require strength, but will alter the boat's speed or direction. Considering there could be novice guests aboard instead of the kidds what would you tell them to do? Have to be something simple. And natural.
I think this is a really important question! :eek:
Not talking about a fullfledged man overboard drill.
The girls thought it was pretty important too!! They're old enough to know that if dad wasn't sailing the boat, they'd be in trouble. They're getting the hang of things--how to steer to keep the sails full, straight line, pick a spot on the horizon, etc., and i let the older one drive her into the marina this time. They help with the jib sheets, know how to take two wraps around the winches--clockwise!--and what tacking and jibing is about. So we're gaining.And they really enjoy doing the sailing, and being a part of it, not just sitting there board.
I think you're right about depowering the sails. Show them to release the main and jib sheets, and point her into the wind. And hope i can make it back.
I have a rope boarding ladder that fits on a winch, hangs over. That might work. They could throw the ring about 10 feet. Maybe! For now, this is about all i could hope for. Take it a step at a time. Hell, they'll probably be able to sail better than dad by this fall! ;)
The most likely scenario is you going forward and then falling off the boat. It has happened here, and we lost a sailor.
The important question: Do you "hook on" when you go forward? A safety harness (or a vest with D rings) and a proper tether should be used. Clip onto the handrails, shrouds and the whisker pole ring on the mast. Reverse on returning to the cockpit.
Better yet, do as Scott Galloway has done and install jack lines from the cockpit to the foredeck. Clip on as you leave the cockpit and you are good up and back. Because Scott is a solo sailor, he clips on religiously. Cheap insurance considering the alternative.
I agree 100%+!
So any recommendations on a good vest with d rings, jack lines, teathers?
And any good deals to be found on such items? I go out alone about 1/2 the time. The other half, well, sometimes it's worse than alone! lol (if something were to happen)
Lucky Dawg is lacking a good sail inventory. I am looking into "new" used sails from suppliers per your recommendations (Atlantic, Bacon, etc). Curious about an all around genoa that I could use with a CDI Flexible Furler. I have the sail dimensions as below. NEW main and 135% genoa seem to be about 2200-2800+. 135, 155, ????
A local sail maker will have suggestions for your local conditions. For furlers, around here 135% seems about right, and was the perfect size on my last boat.
You may also want to look at cruising direct for an on-line quote.
http://www.cruisingdirect.com/
This is a division of North Sails. My current Main (Dacron) and Genoa (a Mylar 130) are from these guys.
I recall the used sail sites had alot of hank-on genoas, but few furling sails.
You need to get the right luff tape size. You also need to find one with a sun cover that matches your other canvas.
So, you'll need a bit of luck to find the right used sail.
The luff length on a furling sail is shorter than a hank-on sail, to account for the drum and swivel.
Since our boats are headsail driven, a new genoa would give you more of a performance boost than a new mainsail. You might want to get a new genoa and squeeze some more life out of the main.
The May-June 2007 Good Old Boat magazine has an informative article on furlers beginning at page 20. It's titled "Respecting the Furler" and discusses such things as preventing halyard wrap -- "Properly set up, halyards don't wrap."
Pete, thanks for the info.
I have gotten 5 or 6 quotes - Yow! Pricey to do both. That is a great suggestion to get the genoa first. I will point my dollars forward.
(Commander Pete, I meant to say so before, thanks so much for your Boats-for-Sale sleuthing with Lucky Dawg! I wouldn't have known she was out there were it not for you posting the ad here. A couple years of boatless lurking paid off in spades! Thanks a ton.)
Did read that article in Good Old Boat Bill, but thanks for the reminder. Come to think of it, I had been a boatless lurker subscriber to Good Old Boat for several years too.
Can someone shed some light on the effects of different luff dimensions. It seem that masthead rigs have genoas that are hoisted nearly to the masthead yet working jibs are a couple of feet shorter in the luff.
What happens if you have a 30.5 foot luff (instead of 28) with a 9 foot foot? Does this affect the balance? Or speed? What is the design reason for the Ariel's sail plan?
I suspect it has to do with the way sails are cut. In order to get a properly shaped triangle the luff has to be shorter for a jib.
With a larger genoa you also might want to take advantage of the better air up high.
You could use a taller jib, as long as its not too tall, accounting for stretch.
This is for a hanked on jib. For a furling genoa, the luff dimension is critical, although the sail can be hoisted higher with a pennant at the bottom
I have Commander 216. I use a J-80 150 jib. and it does great. I like Mike Goodwin's response. When the wind pipes up, the first thing I do is reef and we really go fast. The boat behaves and does not round up. We also have lots of trophies to back up the use of the jib. I hardly ever reef up through 18 knots of wind. The sheeting is right beside the cockpit. The boat came with genoa track running the full length of the cockpit. That's exactly where the genoa sheets to. About 2 feet aft of the cabin then up to the primary wench. Hope this helps.
We race Commander #229 on a lake in Texas. All we have is the 155 Genoa with the jib track on the toerail. We hold our own on all the runs and reaches but when we have to point most everybody passes us. I need some tips on getting this boat to point higher. I have considered a 110 with the track inboard like the picture above. Would I lose too much speed with the smaller sail or would it increase my pointing ability to more than make up for that?
Pray for wind.
A fin keel boat will point higher than one with a modified full keel. This makes it tough on windward/leeward courses which often have no reaching leg at all.
The 110 sail will give you better VMG above a certain wind speed. But, you don't want to be under-canvassed
The boat likes good wind and can carry alot of sail. The boat will do best to windward in strong winds when the other boats have to sail fat because of chop and you can power through with momentum.
Some things to try:
Get clear air at the start. You will get rolled by faster boats and dirty air is deadly. Tack away early if necessary. Sail your own race.
Keep tacks to a minimum since it may take longer to get back up to speed. Overstand the mark a little. Coming out of a tack build up speed before sheeting all the way in. The faster you go, the faster the wind and the higher you can point.
Beating to windward is all about the helmsman. There is a very narrow groove between pinching and being overtrimmed, which changes with every lift and header. Consider getting a tiller extension so you can sit forward enough to read the telltales.
You need enough halyard/luff tension going upwind. Leech cupping or fluttering is also bad.
You want as little rudder deflection as possible. Consider reefing even if noone else is reefed to reduce weather helm. Reefing also helps to flatten an otherwise baggy mainsail.
The problem with the cabintop jib tracks on the Commander is getting a good lead to the primary winches. A track on the deck is going to have a similar problem getting the sheet around the coaming. I've been thinking about doing it, although I have a furling genoa.
Lots of factors go into windward performance. But, the bottom line is that you won't point as high as most other boats and you'll go slow trying.
What an excellent post! Commander Pete just distilled most of what I learned in the couple seasons of racing Faith into one post... :p
When the race comittee is considering canceling the race for 'conditions' you are going to do well. The A/C really shows her stuff when it blows hard... kinda fun watching the light fin keel boats getting blown all over the place while you are under control and tracking streight.... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by commanderpete
Printing this out, and reviewing it on the water would be worthwhile IMHO.Quote:
A fin keel boat will point higher than one with a modified full keel. This makes it tough on windward/leeward courses which often have no reaching leg at all.
The 110 sail will give you better VMG above a certain wind speed. But, you don't want to be under-canvassed
The boat likes good wind and can carry alot of sail. The boat will do best to windward in strong winds when the other boats have to sail fat because of chop and you can power through with momentum.
Some things to try:
Get clear air at the start. You will get rolled by faster boats and dirty air is deadly. Tack away early if necessary. Sail your own race.
Keep tacks to a minimum since it may take longer to get back up to speed. Overstand the mark a little. Coming out of a tack build up speed before sheeting all the way in. The faster you go, the faster the wind and the higher you can point.
Beating to windward is all about the helmsman. There is a very narrow groove between pinching and being overtrimmed, which changes with every lift and header. Consider getting a tiller extension so you can sit forward enough to read the telltales.
You need enough halyard/luff tension going upwind. Leech cupping or fluttering is also bad.
You want as little rudder deflection as possible. Consider reefing even if noone else is reefed to reduce weather helm. Reefing also helps to flatten an otherwise baggy mainsail.
I have been tricked into trying to point with the other boats, and always came up wanting. One helpful bit of advice I got was to get the boat going as fast as I could, that the best VMG was had when I was as close to hull speed as I could get.... when I followed that advice I did better. It felt weird to be so far away from the 'pack' at first, but I really saw a difference in my overall times.Quote:
The problem with the cabintop jib tracks on the Commander is getting a good lead to the primary winches. A track on the deck is going to have a similar problem getting the sheet around the coaming. I've been thinking about doing it, although I have a furling genoa.
Lots of factors go into windward performance. But, the bottom line is that you won't point as high as most other boats and you'll go slow trying.
The full batten main helped the boat point higher, but that probably had much to do with the age of the old main.
I happen to be in a similar situation with my new boat. Because it is not good use of my time to buy a sail, trial fit it, only to find out that it is horribly wrong, I made up an excel spreadsheet that shows what it would look like versus my rig.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Dawg
I have attached a version for the Ariel. It shows the mast and forestay, and plots the outlines of each of the named jibs (#1, #2, working, storm, drifter).
Have at it. I found it a useful tool to visualize if a particular sail was in the right ball park or not.
There is even one sail that I have called "trial jib", where you put in whatever dimensions you are looking at, to compare it to the rest of the jibs.
Also note that I wrote this with having roller furling installed. So there is a value called "DRUM", to take account for the tack of the sail not being on the deck. If you have no roller furling, just enter " 0 " for this value, and it will show all your sails tacked tothe deck.
I just guessed that the drum takes up ~9 or so inches of luff length. Adjust to suit.
Enjoy!
-Keith
C&C 35
PS, I still wish I could have kept my Ariel (along with the new boat). There are days when a simple main-jib-tiller setup would be lovely.
That being said, I am always looking for enthusiastic crew for wednesday night races on my C&C.
I need some tips on getting this boat to point higher
Don't know what your wind conditions are, but you might want to try adjusting the tension on your jib halyard. This should change the angle on the entrance to the wind and might let you sail a bit higher.
So here's an interesting boat performance issue. A friend of mine sent me a furling J/24 Jib as he is racing his boat and only uses hank on headsail. I haven't used it--- my standard headsail is a furling 155%. My Ariel working jib is shot and it needs to be replaced. But how would it perform with the aspect ratio of the J/24? The Ariel jib is 115 sq ft, the J/24 is about 120 sq ft. Ariel Luff-26.6, Foot-10' 4", Leach 25'. J/24 Luff 22.3, Foot 12' 10", Leach- 19'. See the comparison in the plot below (Keith, what a handy tool!). Ariel = Light Blue, J/24= Red.
What happens to performance versus the standard Ariel jib? One who gets the best prediction before I try it out wins a......errr...... nothing!:D
We had a jib that was similar to the J cut. We tried it out in one design racing on the SF Bay our first year. What we found was that we had too much sail up high. In our wind conditions (20+knts) a lower cut sail would always out perform a high clew sail. You could sail faster and higher with what was termed a “deck sweeper”. I believe the reason was a high clew sail would cause the boat to heel more. Under the right conditions I think the higher cut sail would do well (more wind up high).
If you try it out I would be interested to hear what you think.
I'll take what Ed says about sailing as the god's own truth. Everyskipper wants his boat to sail as fast and efficiently as possible. If deck sweepers are more efficient and speedy sails then I'm listening. Soon Little Gull will have to get her new suit of sails.
Mainly, the reason for high clew staysails is for vision forward, right?. Especially shorthanded, the ability to see where you're going is comforting.
Is it possible to 'scandalize' a staysail by reefing the clew? That is, reducing the decksweeping action of the sail by folding or rolling the sail UP to a higher clew point?
And conversely, after leaving crowded waters, the clew could be shaken out and the sail returned to its more effective shape.
Has this been done? Does the sail need to be cut differently, or can this actually be done casually? Be nice to have the option.
Why not just a large window?Quote:
Originally Posted by ebb
I have to say ebb some times your come up with some “very” different ideas. I suppose you can trim a sail any way you want to. I mean there are people sailing around today being pulled by kites. Efficient - who knows? Fun – Hell Yea!
I have not seen anyone reef a jib as you described. Given the sheet angle I don’t know if the deck is long enough to trim the sail. Throw in a long pendant for the tack and you have one more thing that is going to get fouled (Murphy). But what the heck lets try it.
All that said, I don’t want to leave the impression that a high clew sail is less efficient. It is just not the sail I want to use under normal SF conditions. But with wind under 20 and a little calmer water, than our bay during an ebb, the high clew sail is very versatile in my opinion. High clew gives you options that a sweeper doesn’t.
And thank you for the vote of confidence………ed
Thanks for entertaining the novice, guys.
Can see, by simply looking at Keith's diagram that the larger the sail the lower the clew - because it is a simple matter of running out of deck for proper sheeting. Really would be clewless for longfoot sails.
Our 'working jib' seems to be the best all round foresail of the regular low tack sails. With a 110 coming in as a close second. (the 110 is not diagramed on the visual, but I would assume a slightly lower clew.) Correct?
Light air sails, which are the big ones, are not working per se but are speed sails. Not exactly, I can see that a NO.1 would be very useful for getting a boat back home in failing wind. Keeping the boat at "running man" speed at all times is what the foresail selection is about.
It is possible that the light air NO. 1, NO. 2 and Drifter COULD have a reef along the bottom of the sail much like the main. In effect shortening the sail considerably. They could then be raised or lowered with the halyard for positioning. Of course that is probably a useless exercise.
[We did have a lively 76 post 'Roller Furler' discussion in the past. I don't mean to bring that up again]
Non racing A/C's would more than likely have a furler. (High tack, and perhaps this is why you don't race with furlers?)
My wish for this gear would be that it would let the sail out and hold it in a working jib or 110 position with a perfect set. In other words the furler would be designed for the half furled position. We have had this discussion before and I understand that foresail reefers do not exist.
The furler would also unfurl out to a NO. 2 where the shape is more casual let's say. And of course, furl it up totally.
Could this gear be designed to hold at working jib position with a perfect foil?
(Will say that I'm disappointed that a no-aluminum foil foresail reefing system has yet to be invented, except for the screecher. These flyers are not able to take air-foil shape like the into-the-wind working jib. I'm a forward lowering mast guy. Can't we have a working-jib screecher? Scoocher?
I really think a clean wire forestay is the best of all worlds!)
Can furlers be used for class racing? Why not?
The A/C class jib is a very good sail. I think you would enjoy your 110 a little more. When we go out we fly a 120 almost always. I think it is Capt Pete who has the praise for a 150 and a reef. With our 120 jib we can take on just about any conditions we find and be very comfortable. A 120 and a reef is an easy sail in 20 – 30 knts.
Can a headsail have a reef along the foot?
You bet. In fact I would say that is the preferred way. By shorting the sail you achieve the best of all conditions. The sail chord is maintained, allowing you to maintain shape, and the construction of the sail is still effective. The heavier loads are still where the cloth is the strongest. Here is a link that had a bit of a discussion on it.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seaman...eefpoints.html
And just for the heck of it here is a link that talks about sail shape, cut and trim.
http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/98_11_PerfectShape/Main.htm
A lot of the stuff I read has to do with performance but I think in understanding the fine points of performance sailing it makes one a better all around sailor. Setting a boat up to race is setting it up to sail efficiently. Plus while we are not racing anymore you never know when someone may take a snap shot of you I post it on this board.
Can furlers be used for class racing? Why not?
Sure they can. In fact in some classes that is all they use. I worked on an Antrim 27 for three years and all we had was a class jib and a roller. There are a number of classes that do that. But I agree with you “I really think a clean wire forestay is the best of all worlds!”
Ebb,Quote:
Originally Posted by ebb
Not sure I understand your question, so let me play out two possibilities:
1. It is possible to attach the jib sheets to a higher clew position, but leave the tack alone? My guess is that the sail shape would suffer, and not only that, but the loads on the sail would tend to stretch it across the bias, not how the stretch was intended. (PS, I got "Sailrites" manual of jib sail design and construction----> VERY Good even if you don't plan on building a sail. It goes through where to put shape into a sail, how and why, then shows you how to align the fabric to achieve minimum stretch. ever notice how all hte panels are perpendicular to the leech.... "to achieve minimum stretch" is why)
2. is it possible to have a set of reef points on a jib just like on a mainsail. YES! I even inherited a sail that looks like this. There is a second Tack and Second Clew a few feet up from the regular clew and tack. This requires you to lower the halyard just like a mainsail. good because you can keep a sail up and still reef (no need to go bareheaded). Not as good because likely the sail is too full for the conditions that require you to reef. But good as a first reefing step.
-Keith
ps, glad to see my spreadsheet going to use. You can hide "extraneous" sails on the graph by just plugging in "0" for the luff, leech, and foot.
I just Acquired a new roller furling headsail cut for a Catalina 25 tall rig:
Luff= 30'
leech= 28.4'
Foot= 16.9'
The dimensions are nearly identical to the Commander's #1 genoa;
luff = 30'6"
leech= 30'3"
Foot= 17'
The shorter luff allows for the luff lost to the furling unit and the shorter leech brings the clew up to where you do not need to move your block when under shortened sail
The sheeting angle is perfect and the boat sails very well under it. Visibility is also excellent with the raised clew.
Curious what the dimensions of a "deck-sweeper" working jib might be.
our working jib (LP 90%) has the following dimensions
luff 303" or 25' 3"
leach 282" or 23' 6"
foot 107" or 8'11"
would this qualify? It's very beat up, and Im thinking about a new or lightly used sail for the 18-25 kt range that we seem to have every afternoon in the bay. trying to decide if these dimensions are delivering the best performance (routed to inboard jib tracks along the cabin)
Thanks for any advice!
-adam
Copied this question from asimo, AFTER A 13YR SLEEP!!
There back then is Ebb talking about getting his sails together
and it still hasn't happened. We are trying at Spaulding in Sausalito.
Carol Hasse is retiring !!!
Cruising sails won't be deck sweepers, not even the Code Zero.
Carol absolutely has to have measurements taken off a live sailboat.
Sorry to be so vague, but sail measurements are found in the class Manual.
So you can at least get the luff.
There is another way, if you can't wake up the cognoscente here.
You can take the sailplan from the Manual, take it to a copy shop,
zoom it up to a scale like 1/2" to a foot. Waterline of 18.5 feet will be
9 1/4" on the plan. There are other given measurements like the mast
height/length that also can check accuracy.
While working on the Ariel, I've found the set of plans I had made quite
accurate..
With a scale plan you can at least get an idea if a sail you are interested
in might work in the rig.
If making a new set of sails for your A-C yacht, be sure to have the sail maker go to the boat to finalize any measurements.
Best advice!.
In fact Port Townsend Sails insists on it.
We have yet to rig the Baby Stay which will fly a storm jib.
It also can be used for wing on wing in the trades. The
forestay has a reefer/furler. Plenty to go wrong.
Sails will be measured with Carol Hasse up in Washington
on the phone with Chris G of Spaulding directing the taping
in Sausalito.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This may not be the place for this,
the A-338 mast now has Tide Marine's STRONG TRACK
installed on the new 7/8" Schaefer external T-track.
Worried that the tear-drop profile of the mast
would not support the Strong Track which is merely installed
by pushing it up the Schaefer T-track in a molded
corresponding hollow form. Haven't used it yet
- it seems amazingly tight, one with the mast.
Waxy carbon black material is the hardest polyethylene I ever seen.