Epoxy - allergic reactions

This is what an allergic reaction to epoxy can look like. Those of you that have allergies and hayfever like me are especially prone to this type of reaction. Make sure you follow safe working conditions when you use this material.

Wow, that looks more like a burn then a reaction. Hope you recover quickly, I recall reading that once you have a reaction you are more likely to suffer worse ones with repeated exposure, so you really want to be careful.

OBTW, what brand of epoxy were you using?

West System epoxy.

And I remember reading the same thing you have read about it being easier to have additional reactions. I'm hoping with extreme care I can do the significant amount of additional work on Destiny that still needs doing. If it gets to be too much I will be forced to pay someone else to do the epoxy work for me.

Epoxy is a co-polymer of Bisphenol A and Epichlorohydrin.

Look up Wikipedia
EPICHLOROHYDRIN
BISPHENOL A
PHENOL (probably the worst history of all....)
These all seem to be balanced essays on these :eek:chemicals by a balanced researcher/scholar. These are dastardly chemicals all perpetuated by papa Dow and the Chemical Giants.

I'm a 'first generation' user of epoxy. Got the stuff from an industry aircraft supply. It was a two-part paste that smelled strongly of toast and ammonia. I played with it bare-hands like it was clay and got red-hands with raw damage around the finger nails.
It smelled bad, should have known.

As you read about the chemicals you realize that sensitivity is passed on generationally. Nearly always this anomaly lies with the practices of the chemical company and government agencies that protects the consumer. BUT I am stupid and probably paying the price for continuous use of epoxy, not fully realizing its toxicity, for the last 30 years - with minimal protection.

If you are very sensitive to the stuff, there is just about nothing that can be done to make it safe -- except being very very careful.

Reaction.
Always felt that the chemical inter-reaction of Part A with Part B was the problem on the skin. But reading about the chemicals that make up the glue has changed my opinion.
Never found, for instance, a barrier cream or spray that I could work with.
But it is certainly worth the effort to protect your arms with a non-greasy coating. Or a Tyvec sleeve coverall.
Working in hot weather when the pores are open and sweating... we are more vulnerable to react with toxic chemicals and solvents.

Protective gloves are problematic. All disposable gloves only give partial protection. Partial may not be good enough! I used latex because they are the thinnest and allow 'feeling' the work. They offer the least protection. I've had them pull apart putting them on. The gloves we get from fiberglass suppliers are seconds imco. Gloves that never made it to surgery. Nitrille are better protectors, maybe because they are thicker, especially with solvents. And vinyl gloves or polyethylene which don't seem to wrinkle in solvents, that is respond to the chemicals and solvents, while we have them on. My therapist agrees that neuropathy in my arms may come from decades of working with epoxy & solvents.


(google) Epoxy - a warning << UK HBBR
ukhbbr.wordpress.com/how-to-do-it/epoxy-a-warning/
from May 21, 2009. So it is a current site - hope you can bring it up.
This seems to be a guy like you C'147 - but more extreme.


Since I've been here on this Forum, you have read my grousing about the stuff.
Most important to use the 'best' epoxy you can find. Not necessarily will you find it at your local marine convenience store.
Just because a well known chainstore carries a product doesn't make it safer or better than a product not on its shelves or in their catalog.
Use only 100% solids low odor, low VOC, no solvents epoxy. Do not use any epoxy (incuding coatings) that have solvents in them. Solvents just make the epoxy worse than 100% solids which are epoxy dangerous.
Use only Xylene* to thin epoxy - don't inhale it.
Don't buy adulterated** epoxies. Use only one to one or two to one formulations. Buy only: "guaranteed no blush." (I believe only MAS does this.)
I use Calif local TAP Premium. Has never blushed but it is not guaranteed not to. Interesting that TAP also makes a standard (cheaper) two part epoxy that has a rep for problems I have seen at the yard.
Use isopropyl alcohol for cleanup - don't inhale it. You can get sensitized to methyl alcohol as well. Don't get methyl alcohol on your skin. White vinegar (made from ethanol) and water are often cited as alternative to solvents. See if it works for you.

Solvents and alcohol are 'drivers'. They transport the chemicals, the epoxy, you are wiping off your skin INTO your skin.
Sensitivity could come from that combo rather than an allergic reaction to epoxy chemicals.
Stay away from solvents with '..one' in their name: acetone, ketone. Lacquer thinners, MEK are truly BAD. If these wrinkle your gloves imagine what they do to your lungs.


I have yet to use MAS epoxy products. Been easier to get my drugs from the local plastics shoppe. MAS, I believe, is the only supplier who tells you upfront of the dangers of epoxy. This bit of news comes from the Brit site above here. How well they do that would have to go through my rant and sarcasm - but at the very least it is ethical. Support only ethical manufacturers and suppliers.
imco
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*later edit. Xylene. This is a bad chemical. Don't mean to imply that there is anything safer about this solvent than another. It is a benzene ring solvent which all tend to be lethal and carcinogenic. Limited experience tells me that we can successfully thin epoxies with small amounts without altering the epoxy's chemistry too much. I use thinned epoxy as a sealer for wood. But technically I really don't know. Bet we get a rash from it. Xylene is the odor of gasoline.
**cheaper epoxies are often cheapened by extending/diluting with nonylphenol.

The guy in the article you directed me to went to some extreme measures to protect himself and still failed.

I've backed off on the boat projects until this flare up goes away (and thanks to a steriod creme from the doc it is starting to go away). My plan is to cover up MUCH better than I was. The flare up came from sanding the patch on a through hull that I closed up. Being Florida in the summer I was working with bare arms. I won't make that mistake again. I don't believe the fumes are what cause me a problem. I worked down inside the keel where ventilation was minimal and did not have a problem. It was not until I sanded partially cured epoxy and got the dust on my arms that I had any issues.

I'm also building a new boat shop (or I should more correctly say having it built) That I can air condition. This will allow me to work under more cover without suffering heat exhaustion.

Could be you don't have a direct CHEMICAL reaction to the stuff.
Cured or even 'partially' cured chemicals are not known to cause contact dermatitis.
(LATER EDIT: BUT cured epoxy and most common consumer plastic products (what is not plastic?) leach toxic chemical components in the form of synthetic hormones that all living beings are having problems with. Read later posts here....)
Incomplete cure is the cause of polyester blistering in underwater hulls. Epoxy being a twopart mix might do the same, but imco is undocumented. Epoxy and vinylesters are not 'waterproof', more water-resistant than polyesters.

Of course the dust is another problem.
And so is glass particles.
Now glass MIGHT cause a skin reaction if you are rubbing against the source -- or if your grinder is spraying grindings onto your arm.
The redness is in the crotch of your arm and agitation might be a contributing factor.
Might indeed be a lowgrade rash.
Hope so;)

In any case
It doesn't sound like classic allergy reaction to fumes or contact. That's good news.


Absolutely nothing like a real shop. Fantastic!!!

Also I see your Commander has a BOWSPRIT.
That's a real first!


Have fun!

That was a quick way to draw the trailer tongue to make sure it would fit in the space. No bowsprit. I was just trying to get a symbol that would show the size and scale of the boat on the trailer for building planning purposes.

And I hope you are right about the Epoxy.

Imco it'll be virtually impossible to avoid uncured epoxies working around a boat.
Maybe you could try to find out if you have an allergy.
Do you have a history of allergies? In your family? In your past?

It may be worth while to go to a dermatologist and get a patch test for uncured epoxy ( Side B, the hardener, is thought to be the culprit, but this is not correct, the chemicals in both sides are toxic.)
As I understand it, they use acetone or petroletum as the carrier in the test.
So if you have a reaction to these two rascals, you'll know you have a reaction to patch testing!

BUT it may be worth a try.
If you can afford it, it might be interesting to find out if you are predisposed to reactions from the usual solvents that end up in a shop.


What's that in the upper left corner, your metal band saw?
And a sliding table saw, wow!
Hope you post pics of your shop - always a treat!

http://www.fram.nl/workshop/controle....../alergy.htm

(this blueline won't come up,
the correct site will have a orange/yellow background)

FYI
"Here are some quotes from other users with allergy experience.
It's a growing collection e-mails about this thread on various forums.
Beware, this is not a cheerful reading matter."

this appears at the head of many pages of material.
Including a strange post near the end by the Gougeon Bros encapsulating their history in the epoxy business
- including, of all things, their connection with Dow who formulate their products.
(ebb is going to jump on any 'guilt by association'. Many safer low VOC laminating epoxies have appeared in the market. From that this jumper assumes that epoxies can be made safer for non-professionals. Gougeon/WestSystems by Dow are more dangerous than they should be. They still market (so far as I know) blushing epoxies and side B hardeners with formaldehyde.)

At the end, this appears:
Source: Sailing Anarchy.
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Way later edit (Have filled up the allowable number of words in following post #11....)

There is plenty of evidence, even if most of it is anecdotal, that working with two part epoxy is dangerous...
it probably is very dangerous... and impossible for some people to be exposed to raw epoxy at all. Contact
dermatitis, if we can diagnose a rash ourselves, proves to be the tip of a monstrous chemical iceberg. The
term 'out-gassing' describes a material's airborne odor molecules that stimulate chemoreceptors in the nose.
The molecules can be toxic. If they are, once inside the nose, they are inside the body. No living being is
exempt from infection...
What we have below here is proof (proof, you will have to confirm for yourselves since I'm not a trained
researcher or writer) that essentially
every man, woman and child in the United States hasbeen infected by the plastics industry with synthetic
endocrine disruptors (chemical constituents that attack our reproductive and sex organs) excreted by plastic
consumer products. It's more serious than you ever imagined. It is more serious than you can admit....
IT'S NOT JUST RAW EPOXY
"Wikipedia: The endocrine system refers to the collection of glands of an organism that secrete hormones
directly into the circulatory system to be carried towards distant target organs. The major endocrine glands
include the pineal gland, pituitary gland, pancreas, ovaries, testes, thyroid gland, parathyroid gland,
mammary glands, HYPOTHALAMUS, and adrenal glands..... Other organs have secondary functions such as
bone, kidney, liver, heart, and gonads. Hormones can consist of either amino acid complexes, steroids,
eicosanoids, leukotrienes, or prostaglandins."
One way or another external secreting glands, sweat and salivary, also are hormonally activated. Skin rash
could be signaling a synthetic hormonal cause.

Common consumer plastic secretes synthetic hormones that the body cannot differentiate from live
hormones of its own internal systems.... that's why they are called endocrine disruptors. There are a lot of
experts throwing a lot of words and theories around, there may be official regulators that actually think
they know what they are doing, they don't -- and there is no cure for the effects of hormonal disruption.
Nobody knows. Nobody, no agency, no research group, no university has the answer or knows where to
begin. Except to stop manufacturers from using endocrine disruptors in plastic products.
That is NEVER going to happen.
Some try to expose what the plastics industry and their regulators are up to. A heroic but very dangerous
thing to do. Can't stop them... They will buy the legal system to bury you.
Nobody is looking out for the plastics consumer. It's good enough for you and me. And Bobby Magee...

__________________________________________________ _____________________
"One should not lose one's temper unless one is certain of getting more and more angry
to the end." William Butler Yeats

Here's Ebb's link: http://www.fram.nl/workshop/controll...on/allergy.htm

Thanks Mike!
Only wanted to loop in a little more - maybe updated - fuel to this ongoing problem.

Looking up the MSDS for West System 105 Epoxy Resin.
I don't see any nasty solvents perse in the ingredients unless Benzyl alcohol is so considered.
But it isn't a 100% solids formula either.
If it was they might say so, as that buzz phrase sells 2-part epoxy these days (2010/2011) to people who are trying to work safe.

West System 105 resin.
50% of a can of 105 is Bisphenol A type epoxy resin.
(Hey, bub, what is the bisphenol A epoxy made from?)
20% is Benzyl alcohol (a mild solvent)
20% is Bisphenol F type epoxy resin
0.3 % is Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether. (a potent toxic solvent - .3% js about 1/3rd of an ounce in a gallon)

Bisphenol A has really bad toxic credentials we won't go into here.
You work with chemicals, you use caution.
[It's the innocent exposure that gets me.
Like BPA leaching out of epoxy lined bean cans (all metal cans) and out of baby bottles made with polycarbonate. Girl children as young as 6 months in PuertoRico developing breasts, linked to plastic bags from the grocery] FOOD BAGS. Check out PHTHALATES (not a floor exercise) Tech Forum.

Just wanted to show how difficult it is to assign a dematitus reaction to any epoxy product. This is from Melbourne Australia 2005.
"Abstract. A 30-year-old man presented with eyelid dermatitus and was diagnosed with occupational allergic contact dermatitus to an epoxy resin based on the monomer diglycidyl ether of Bisphenol F. He did not react to the standard epoxy resin based on Bisphenol A, but reacted to a diluted sample of epoxy resin taken from his workplace, an adhesive manufacturing plant. The diagnosis would not have been made had he not brought samples from work, which were patch tested after appropriated dilution. The MSDS provided additional evidence that the epoxy was not based on Bisphenol A.
The patient's symptoms subsided after avoidance of the identified product."

This shows me that nothing is simple about identifying what we become allergic to.
(As to 'avoidance', we assume Diglycidyl Dundee got himself another job.:cool:)
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way later EDIT: Find a quote from a professional source on the chemical make-up of WestSystem resin hardeners on this Forum's thread.... Specific to skin sensitizing:
Epoxy VS Polyester post #23.
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nonylphenol, NP, has an extensive essay on Wikipedia. If read with an open mind it is absolutely frightening that this chemical (and a host of others) are unleashed by industry into the environment and our lives, without regulation. Of course it's good for business. Nonylphenol, a chemical additive in almost all epoxies, is used to adjust quantities of sides A and B to make them easier to measure precisely.
Epoxyproducts.com (where we get a lot of good information, good and bad, about coatings) talks about its good and bad properties in the make-up of epoxy products. In cheap epoxies it is used as a "water down additive" that reduces the physical properties of epoxy. It requires hazmat for shipping, and has health risks. Weird ones, not only turning men into women and women into men, but has links to breast and prostate cancer.

'The production and use of NP and nonylphenol ethoylates is prohibited in the European Union due to its and Bisphenol A's estrogenic effects in both wildlife and humans. Known as xenoestrogens, they are endocrine disruptors in that the body cannot distinguish them from natural hormones.' Our EPA has a hands-off regulatory stance using recommendations and risk assessments to 'further study' the effects of NP on humans and the environment. Asia and South America have no regulations.
We talk about whether we become sensitized, or become allergic to epoxy. We don't yet know enough about these chemicals to piddle about nomenclature. Individually our immune systems are taxed to exhaustion living in our polluted world. A rash may be a sign of more serious reactions to these chemicals, or a combination. Just a guess

;)But more important to us is that nonylphenol retards the drying of oil based enamels applied over epoxy, especially in high humidity. This is unrelated to amine blush. I've wondered why Epifanes (as an example) requires all of their single-part paints, which I assume to be oil based, including mono-urethane, to be preceded with a special barrier primer.
And considering what other surprises epoxy produces, like amine blush, which special primers won't stick to anyway, there are more than a coupla things to keep in mind before painting over epoxy.
Coating options - painting over epoxy - Progressive Epoxy Products www.epoxyproducts.com/enamel.html

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We know by now that all kinds of plastic we use daily on our boats, even though we accept them as simple products like wrappers, bags, bottles, and can liners, leach synthetic hormone mimicking chemicals and heavy metals into unvented areas, into our food and water, lungs and skin. Nonylphenol, a liquid plastic, that we catalyze and convert to an inert solid, ('now they tell us') still chemically leaches into what ever comes in contact with it. AUTOMATICALLY. Just how oil based paints are affected by NP from catalyzed epoxy, unless there is an actual contact transfer of chemical vapor, is a mystery. Hundreds of examples of this kind of leaking/gassing from the plastics in our lives. Be wary of any epoxy, including novolacs, that are sold as coating liners for potable drinking water tanks.
BisphenolA, BPA - nonylphenol, NP - and a number of phthalate metabolites (plasticizers) are the "three classes of environmental estrogens we humans are widely exposed to through the ubiquitous use of these chemicals in consumer products."

WHAT DOES MY BODY KNOW
CDC, EPA admits 95% of children, adolescents and adults in America have detectable levels of BPA in tissue and blood. Experts say levels detected are too low to cause any harm! WHO says? Who has the chutzpah to decree what industrial poisons are acceptable lifetime inoculates? The regulators have NO idea how little BPA it takes to cascade through family generations to show up as birth defects, deformities, death and cancer. These man made endocrine disruptors are permitted to be released without supervision.. The new normal , is that nearly all Americans and tens of millions more now have these and untold other harmless synthetic hormones in their bodies. So far as I know, nobody is tracking this extraordinary situation. And I'm sure API, the American Petroleum Institute, agrees with the U.S. Centers for Disease Control... that every individual human endocrine system, including mine, now shares in body and mind this modern chemical reformation of normal human health. We're all together in this! (Maybe 'normal' is the wrong word, but what thinking is it that makes these toxins 'natural' or 'the standard', and therefor the acceptable norm for the human condition, my flesh and blood?)
This is not merely criminal negligence, it appears to be deliberate extremist subversion. Off with their heads.
Imco this problem is as serious as global warming to any future humans have on this planet.
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www.ewg.org Environmental Working Group. Imco, there is no neutral stand you can take on injustice. Either you radicalize, or you support these federal agency handmaidens to industry, chemical & petroleum corporations and 'institutes'. No middle ground: you are on the edge if you have harmlessly contaminated children. The environmental point of no return is already here. We are all in the same boat. Up the same crick.

IT GETS WORSE
One last paper: The Scary New Evidence on BPA-Free Plastics - Mother Jones. Sub titled: And the Big Tobacco-style campaign to bury it. This article is about non-BPA plastics showing up with endocrine disruptors -- and Big Plastic's nasty, criminal tactics against the whistle blowers. Confirms to me that WE CANNOT TRUST OUR WATCHDOGS - NOTHING THEY SAY ABOUT THE SAFETY OF ANY PLASTIC. The industry is unable to cleanup consumer plastics, probably because, like climate change, the chemical industry, like a volcano, is out of control. They have to lie, commit fraud and destroy reputations to continue the unscrupulous business of poisoning people and environment -- as if there is no tomorrow -- one damn sure thing: they have only a 5% chance their own children aren't contaminated like the rest of us !!
It's pretty sick, you shouldn't read it...

"A poison kills you, says biology professor Frederick vom Saal. "A chemical like BPA reprograms your cells and ends up causing a disease in your grandchild that kills him."

Your allergic reaction cause by epoxy is well founded.

Mega post above, merely tickles the belly of the monster.

Damned if you do.
Damned if you don't.
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MAS LV EPOXY RESIN (2 to 1)
BPA............................................... .....................70-90%
Alkyl Glycidyl Ether............................................. .10-20%
Castor Oil Glycidyl Ether.......................................... 4-8%
EpoxyPhenolNovolacResin........................... ...........0-10%

MAS Slow Hardener
Alcohol........................................... .....................10-40%
Amine adduct, trade secret.................................. .10-30%
3-Aminomethyl-3,5,5-triomethyl/cyclohexylamine....10-30%
1-3-Cyclohexanebis/methylamine...........................10-30%
4-Nonylphenol, branched........................................5-10%
"MAS epoxy won't blush as long as it is applied in anything under 98% humidity."


West System 105 Epoxy Resin (Chemical Name: BisphenolA based epoxy resin)
(5 to 1)
6-100%..... Propane, 2,2-bis (2,3epoxypropoxy)phenyl polymers
10-30%..... Benzyl alcohol
1-10%....... Phenol - formaldehyde polymer glycidyl ether

West System Slow Hardener
30-50%...... Polyoxypropylenediamine
30%........... Polymer of epichlorohydrine, bisphenol A, and DETA
30%........... Tetraethylenepentamine TEPA
12%........... Diethalenetriamine (DETA)
12%........... Reaction products of TETA and propylene oxide
12%........... Triethylenetetramine TETA
{Chemical name: Modified Alaphatic Polyamine}
____total:
126-146%....(more of this good stuff than you expected!)

Expect West System epoxy to blush at anytime.*
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ :eek:

Propane is one of a group of Liquefied Petroleum gasses that include butane
-- butadiene -- butylene -- isobutylene -- propylene.
Why do plastics & synthetic rubber caulks out-gas........h m m m m ?


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*Epoxyworks (Minimizing Blush), West System's cyborg mouth, says it this way:
"We have found that the same components that promote our epoxy's strength
and toughness also contributes to the formulation of blush."

Comment: Prime example of doublespeak. This is both 'honest' and specious, it
reveals the true posture of a manufacturer promoting a lousy chemical product. The
statement is true, but putting "We have found.." in front is dishonest. It's a chummy
way of saying the epoxy's good qualities are inseparable from its bad. 'That's the
way it is with the best epoxy,' says West Systems, with a rashy raw arm around our
endocrins.
To wit: The article does present ways to minimize things the customer must do to
avoid failures in lamination and coatings. If you master the ballet you'll end up with
the strength and toughness you paid for. Except for the solvents you paid for that
out-gas into your work environment. Washing away blush takes time and is incredibly
inconvenient.
Superior S and T of West Systems has not been proven in any controlled comparison
tests I've seen. The article does not reference them. The cyborg mouths are epoxy-
experienced contractors of our West System. They are salesmen.

2 to 1 ratios are easier & more accurate for casual users, other epoxies do not blush
regularly, and don't require professional expertise and expensive safety gear for
success. Imco WS epoxy is more toxic than some others. The brand is marketed in
a brick and mortar system giving it too easy access by people unfamiliar with handling
sensitive and poisonous materials. Buy epoxies that are 2-to-1 by volume, no pumps
required, 100% no-solvent, don't blush normally, and do not have formaldehyde in
their formula.
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Epoxy resin is a badass unforgiving chemical torpedo no matter who makes it. 95%

(not to say it could be as high as 100%) of all humans already have Bisphenol A

irrevocably BONDED in their body. So say government regulators who have invented

a handsoff climate for the perpetraitors to continue poisoning the environment,

and all living in it, by not setting toxin and carcinogen standards and limits on plastics.


MAN MADE
Hormone mimicking chemicals bypass your immune system and invade with the
finality of radiation. You may be lucky enough to manage your dosages because it's
masked by your inherent health and youth... It's 95%+ certain that you will keep
withdrawing your health and depleting it like a bank account. And it's probably also
true that it gets harder as you age to put health back into your wellness account.
But unlike radiation there's virtually no chance you will lucky enough NOT to pass-on
your endocrine damaged DNA to your children, and to your grandchildren.
This is particularly catastrophic.
The blame rests entirely on the plastics industry and government overlords. imco

and we, the lumping contaminated, who do nothing about it
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

Miss the point in all of this?

THERE IS NO SAFE PLASTIC TO STORE FOOD OR WATER IN.

THAT MEANS

NONE