para anchor vs series drogue

I should state that I am a series drogue maker, in Melbourne. I think there is too much dissinformation published about para anchors, because they are a powerfull advertising group of manufacturers. Because of this yachting magazines do not evaluate their performance worts and all. For more information go to my site www.seriesdrogue.com including the US Coast Guard report

Series drogue, para anchor, heaving to, lying ahull or running off are options for survival in storm conditions, which is best? Only you can evaluate your boats handling peculiarities and use this knowledge to choose the right storm tactics suited to your yacht.

Heaving to, Lying ahull, or Running off
“It is important to note that most storms, even severe storms, do not create dangerous breaking waves. Sailors who survive such storms may conclude that the tactics they employ, such as heaving to, lying ahull or running off, are adequate to prevent capsize. This is a serious mistake. There is very compelling evidence to show that while a well found boat will survive a storm in non-breaking waves, none of the above tactics will prevent capsize in a breaking wave strike.”
U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-20-87 sec1-1


Sea anchors and Para anchors
The sellers of para anchors promote these items as bullet proof protection in storm survival situations, we question the veracity of this description.

Para anchor positives
A vessel disabled, in danger of closing with land or other hazards can hold station, until the problem is fixed or help arrives.

“In moderate weather, before seas begin to break dangerously, parachute anchors are effective at helping boats hold station. Many of the users whom we have interviewed speak well of their experiences in moderate gale conditions”
Steve Dashew

Fishing boats with hulls designed to sit parallel to anchor lines, sit well to a para anchor, they are widely used by squid fishers, to hold station while fishing.

Para anchors - what the experts say
Many yachts yaw and sail at anchor, and even more on para anchors, this phenomenon is called shearing. If a wave hits the bow in this shear cycle the boat can be forced backwards, resulting in :-


____i)Damage to rudder.
____ii)Breaking rode.
____iii)Rolling over.
____iv)Forcing water thru exhaust system under extreme pressure and into the engine.
____v) All of the above


In the trough of a wave/swell the para anchor rode goes slack, the yacht will commence to yaw wanting to lie ahull, leaving it partially or totally beam to sea with the possibility of being knocked flat or rolled.

“Even with a large sea anchor the bow of a modern yacht will tend to yaw away from the wind when the towline goes slack as it will when the boat passes through the trough of the wave. For these reasons the use of a sea anchor deployed from the bow is not recommended”
U.S. Coast Guard Report No CG-D-20-87 sec 6-6

Anecdotal evidence - para-anchors in storms
“Para anchor users interviewed all find their parachute anchors extremely difficult to retrieve in other than moderate wind and sea.
A major factor regarding both personal comfort and one’s use of parachute anchors in breaking seas is the boat’s tendency to sail at anchor. As stated earlier, if your boat sails on the hook, the odds are it will sail around even more fiercely while lying to a parachute in the middle of the ocean. This oscillation creates extreme loads, presents the bow at a wide and dangerous angle to the sea, and is extremely uncomfortable.
There are two ways around this. One is some form of riding sail or backstaysail as we’ve discussed. The other is to bridle the parachute off the bow, as advocated by the Pardeys. The bridle is used with a reefed trysail or deeply reefed main to increase resistance to rolling. A key feature of this approach for the Pardeys is the creation of a slick off their keel, which - theoretically, at least - calms the seas. This is a major safety issue, because without the slick, the boat is now lying at an angle of 50 deg or 60 deg to breaking crests, quite vulnerable to a knockdown or worse. I have no doubt that the Pardey’s Seraffyn did in fact create a slick to windward in its day, but I have never seen this myself, and I have interviewed only one other sailor who claims to have been able to crate this type of beneficial slick and have it work as advertised.
In furiously breaking seas, the situation worsens dramatically. An excellent example of problems encountered comes from the experience of the Burman family aboard Freya, a Stan Huntington-designed, heavy displacement, full-keel 46-footer. Last spring, Freya was caught in a major storm off the coast of New Zealand. Rather than close with a lee shore in difficult conditions, Bruce Burman decided to deploy his 18-foot Para-Tech sea anchor. This was attached to a 450 foot piece of ¾ New England Ropes three-strand nylon. The rode was new, right off the spol, had never before been used, and was the size recommended for this vessel.
Dry breaking strength on the rode was 16,700 pounds (wet, about 20 percent less). The Para-Tech anchor was good for roughly 10,000 pounds of load, and then would start to blow panels, which in turn would relieve the load on the rode. The rode was attached to a heavy bronze cleat, fastened with four 5/16’’ stainless steel bolts, recently replaced and beefed up with a backing-plate under the deck. The four bolts and cleat would probably bear 12,000 pounds or more of load. Bruce Burman eased the rode out a couple of feet every two hours. The rode went through a bronze chock, and no sign of chafe was observed.
During the first evening of the storm, Freya was knocked down and rolled while lying to the parachute anchor. Because the wind had developed from a compression zone between vigorous high and low-pressure systems, the wind direction was relatively steady. Data from the helicopter pilot who eventually picked up the Burman family confirmed that there were no crossing seas from wind shifts or other conflicting storm systems.
Either during the knockdown or just before it, the rode parted about 10 feet off the bow in what appeared to be a tension failure. While the failure was unfortunate for the Burman family, it provides a valuable data window for the rest of us - an opportunity to get a handle on the loads involved”.
Steve Dashew




U.S. Coast Guard conclusions - series drogue vs para anchor.
“This paper documents the investigation of the use of drogues/sea anchors to prevent small sailing yacht capsize in breaking seas. The following conclusions were reached:

i) _____In many and possibly most cases, a properly engineered drogue can prevent breaking wave capsizing.
ii)___._ For fin keel sailing yachts the drogue/sea anchor should be deployed from the stern, not the bow.
iii) ____A series type drogue provides significant advantages over a cone or parachute type drogue/sea anchor.
iv) ____A full-scale series drogue demonstrated satisfactory handling and durability characteristics under simulated storm conditions and in actual breaking wave conditions.
v) ___._A recommended design specification including design loads is presented for cone, parachute and series type drogues”.

U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-2087 sec 7-0


Series Drogues and boat design


“With a series drogue deployed, a well-designed and properly constructed fibreglass boat should be capable of riding through a Fastnet type storm with no structural damage. Model tests indicate that the loads on the hull and rigging in a breaking wave strike should not be excessive.
Many sailors are reluctant to deploy a drogue from the stern because they fear that the boat may suffer structural damage if the breaking wave strikes the flat transom, the cockpit and the companionway doors. The model tests do not show this to be a serious problem. The boat is accelerated up to wave speed and the velocity of the breaking crest is not high relative to the boat. The stern is actually more buoyant than the bow, and will rise with the wave. However, the boat may be swept from the stern. The cockpit may fill and moving water may strike the companionway doors. The structural strength of the transom, the cockpit floor and seat, and the companionway doors should be checked at a loading corresponding to a water jet velocity of approximately 15 ft./sec.
When a boat is riding to a series drogue no action is required of the crew. The cockpit may not be habitable and the crew should remain in the cabin with the companionway closed. In a severe wave strike the linear and angular acceleration of the boat may be high. Safety straps designed for a load of at least 4g should be provided for crew restraint. All heavy objects in the cabin should be firmly secured for negative accelerations and drawers and lockers should be provided with latches or ties which will not open even with significant distortion of the hull structure”.
U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-20-87 sec 6-4

regards
Bryan Glover

Nicely constructed site. Very interesting info. What a niche business to be in!
Should we get some comments going? Some of us are offshore bound and safety is on our minds. Haven't 'studied' the site - just took a look....

One interesting thing mentioned is that statistically ANY boat under 50 feet WILL be tumbled.

One page recommends that chainplates be installed on the quarters instead of the usual cleats and chocks on deck because of once-in-a-lifetime loads that may be experienced. (Once read a cruiser recommending that the lines be led aft from the samson post to the stern.) This is, of course, for deploying a drogue off the stern. Persuasive arguements are presented for this position - to which may be added that it is definitely safer to deploy, adjust and retrieve the device from the cockpit.

Using a sailboat called the Winston Churchill the "Seriesdrogue" website chooses to depict the boat in thumbnails with the drouge streamed from the bow, without explanation.
I may have missed something, but it is inconsistences like this that one applies to the product.

The smallest drogue made by this company is rated for a vessel a little less than twice the displacement of an Ariel. I'm onboard with more is better, but need to know if some cones would have to be removed or something, to control the boat in a once-in-a-lifetime situation. I guess the ticket would be around $300, and I guess we'ld order from them. so there may be customs fees and shipping that would jack the price.

Ordering blind and foreign off the internet you takes your chances on quality.

I would like to see the device deployed in actual photos. And they ought to consult with C'pete for more appropriate hair-raising photos of sailboats in distress rather than tankers having a good-ole-time crashing into big ones.
I would have liked a more custom approach to our particular web site with information directly related to small boats.

Persuasive though! Maybe they have a group rate?:)

Something to note here is that an Ace Sails on the East Coast makes the Jordan Series Drogue ( they seem to be unavailable thru the net.) I haven't compared our 'own' with the Aussie one. Wouldn't know how to begin.

USCG did model and real time tests in 1987 on anchors and drogues to control a small boat in a storm. The series drogue, a series of small openended cones sewn end to end in a line won over the sea anchor hands down ("The series drogue can double in function as a spare anchor line and can use the boat's regular anchor as a weight. (Think I might rig it with the cone noses up!) All 90 cones weigh only four pounds.") The CG considered para anchors dangerous in its test. My understanding.

A sea-anchor holds the bow into waves and wind. A drogue can't do this. A sea-anchor virtually stops the boat, a drogue is not designed to do this. Using a not powerful enough drogue or too small a sea anchor off the bow could cause the boat to ride beam on to the waves and over you go. Lying ahull seems to be dangerous as well. Depends on boat. Getting the sea-anchor in sync with on coming waves and keeping it there is difficult if not impossible. Violent motion and chaff are often reported. Some find it satisfactory including the Pardeys.
Drogues and series drogues allow the boat to continue to run in a controled manner still steering and sailing. They are deployed over the stern. Depending on the drogue, boat, and storm, 1, 2, 3, 4 nm an hour are reported. The Jordan series drogue proved easy to set and retrieve. No complaints for this type are recorded. Drogues evidently work well because some part of the series is usually in the water mitigating the jerking of stopping and going, often violent with a sea anchor.

There is a time when approaching land or a situation where the need "to park the boat until the storm passes" is necessary. It would be wise to also carry one for this purpose. Para-tech recommends a 12' parachute ($775) for an A/C length boat. Practical Sailor's fave is the Fiorentino Para Anchor which is well built and heavy duty, also made on the East Coast, I believe. Pardey's use a type of chute different than the Para-tech to make a slick with their boat, like that, a different method - Paratech has a disclaimer on their site.

Adlard Coles in Heavy Weather Sailing, not recommending one method over another, did say that running was the safest decision.

I found the USCG report here:
http://www.sailrite.com/drogue_information.htm
There is much anecdotal info at 'Cruiser's FAQ by Daschew' - 'Live Aboard Forum' - 'Cruising Discussion Group from SSCA' - 'Cruising Sailor's Forum'. The study above seems to be the only one around and MUST be read by anybody going offshore.

(I think there is a clue here that Sailrite makes a kit that you can sew together to keep from being bored
as you 'sail beyond the sunset and bathes of all the western stars.')

Dear Ebb,
I have been working on and testing series drogues for small boats, on my 28 ft yacht, 3000kg displacement, going in and out Port Phillip Heads streaming a 50 and 75 cone drogues, the heads always have serious waves, when the wind gets up a bit. We had a strong wind warning, 30 knots and 20 to 25 foot waves. The test was as follows. I went out the heads at slack water, waited one hour, and came in with the flood tide, which runs at 7 knots, I motored in at 2800 revs which lifted the across the bottom speed to 8.5 knots or 1.5 k across the water with 75 cones, and 9 knots, 2 knots across the water with the 50 cones, which kept the drogue line tight. The heads, also called the rip, is a bit like the columbia river bar, a good place for breaking waves. I had 2 safety lines attaching me to the boat, holding me firmly, the motion was not that wild, boat speed picked up with each wave pass and slowed when it had passed, waves were vertical walls, and breaking, very little water came aboard. The sensation was a bit like being attached to a bunge cord. This was a crude test, but I think the 75 cone drogue would be ok for a 2000kg displacement yacht, in a once in a lifetime storm.
I have used a 100 cone drogue in a storm in Bass Strait 2 years ago, with a happy ending.
To answer some of your questions. Australia has a free trade agreement with the U.S.
so there is no duty on Australian goods. The rope I use is manufactured in Melbourne by a small company called Cobra Ropes, the U.S. Air Force, also buys rope from this same small Melbourne company, the rip cord on ejector seats. The cones are made from rip stop nylon sail cloth 1.5 oz, and hemd top and bottom, ace does not hem their cones.
The prices on the site include shipping by air mail. I am happy to quote on smaller drogues email bryan@seriesdrogue.com
regards
Bryan

Dear ebb
You state:- Using a sailboat called the Winston Churchill the "Seriesdrogue" website chooses to depict the boat in thumbnails with the drouge streamed from the bow, without explanation.
I may have missed something, but it is inconsistences like this that one applies to the product.
I dont know why you say this, Don Jordans designers notes when evaluating the loss of winston churchill during the 1998 sydney - hobart race has a full and complete explanation, and recommended the drogue to be deployed from the stern. it says nothing about deploying from the bow. Have another look
regards
Bryan

Sorry Bryan, Often go too rapidly through stuff, will say that the thumb nail did not read well.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

First, the USCG report is on Bryan's web site.
Second, as I understand it, when you order online you get the cones, a latch hook, instructions, and it's postage free.

That means you get to tailor and design your own drogue using line of your own choosing and pocketbook.

You'll need about 150' of 3strand nylon (I can't imagine going under 5/8s.
You'll need to supply about 350', for 100 cones, of double braid nylon.
And some kind of weight for the end. An anchor?
Ordering an uncut 500' spool would be the way to go, if you get a great deal and if double braid can be substituted for the leader and bridle. But if that is extra insurance, why not? 500 feet of line plus the cones for a made up drogue sounds like a considerable stowage issue, doesn't it?

I might do as suggested and mount extra chainplates on the quarters under the toerail proud of the transom dedicated for the drogue. That would also keep the deck free. The deck back there on a cruiser isn't going to be very free. Chaffing would not be the prime problem with shackles and eyes. Tho the attachments would be out of immediate sight. Wonder how you'd adjust the thing in use with the sheet OR the halyard winches??? Longer plates would spread the sheer load. Beefing up the fairly thin topsides in that area of 338 could be done without a whole lot of grief. Later.

Dear ebb
A drogue consisting of 75 cones you would require 300 ft of 1/2 inch line. 5/8 if you wish. I will supply 75 cones and latch hook to Pearson Ariel members for usd 180.00.
regards
Bryan

Such a deal!
Spools come in 600'. A spool of Jamestown's best gold and white nylon double braid 1/2" goes for $475. WM sells white and gold for $1.09 per foot. Half inch line easy on the hands. You need to replace your dock lines, anchor line. Right? And make yerself a new set of brakes.

So, Bryan, some technical Q's for you -

I'd guess you can use a (lightweight) 1.5oz cloth because the loads involved on individual cones are relatively small? What kind of thread are you using, anything special, or overlarge? The nylon webbing/ribbon - why nylon, instead of say polypro - is there a reason for the material choice? Do you put a hoop inside the leading edge of the cones, or do they stay open sufficiently without the use of that or similar?

I've been thinking for a while that a series drogue is a much better tool than the para anchors, your site justifies my thinking. Thanks. :D

Dear Epiphany,
Don Jordan spent so many years working on the drogue, he was chief aeronautical engineer at boeing, and retired when the Jumbo jet came into service, I made the decision to make the drogue to his exact specifications. I use american made fabric and sail thead. The loads on individual cones is relativly small. for very large yachts I use 2oz rip stop. There are no hoops inside the leading edge, yes they stay open.

Looks good and seems like a great price, Bryan. I think your webbing is what is known as "grosgrain ribbon" over here. It's light, but strong stuff. The Blaze Orange color fabric is a good idea, too.

I've read many times of old salts towing warps when running under bare poles in hellacious conditions. These warps have been rope, chain, a combo of the two, and some have even slung additional drag-inducing materials onto the warps in an effort to slow the boat (like auto tires and anchors). It seems the series drogue is more of a technological extension of that idea than it is an improvement on the para-anchor idea. Will have to do some rereading about streaming warps again. The series drogue seems like it would be much easier to deploy, handle, and retrieve than several sets of long line/chain.

And at any rate, it's a lot easier to stow 75 flat fabric cones than it is a few car tires, so there's one obvious plus. Also, the cones won't make black scuff marks on the locker walls. ;)

Bryan,
That closeup shows a very impressive and strongly made cone. It has convinced me.

What is the natural disposition of the drogue off the stern? IE could it hang straight down and get into the propeller of the outboard? Is this an issue?

Is the weight at the end actually an anchor? What would you recommend for the Ariel? What's ideal?

Without the weight on the end, perhaps the drogue would be something very useful to hang on to in a man overboard situation!? A singlehander here on the site trails a polypropylene trip line to pull a rope ladder attached to the lifelines down into the water.

Wonder if the drogue could be rigged in the pushpit in a sunbrella bag ready to go, except for the weight? A drogue in a non-storm situation might help slow the boat down if it's sailing without the skipper? :cool:

Dear Ebb
The drogue always trails the boat, if there was no wind at all then yes it would simply hang down. but you only use it when there is wind, Chain or a lead weight 10 to 15kg would be ample, ships anchor if you have nothing else.
The drogue would still slow the boat under sail or power without a weight attached, to about 1,5knots. So not so good as man overboard equipment.
Why would a boat be sailing without the skipper?? are you winding me up.
regards
Bryan

Bryan -

An idea for you - contact Phil Herring at sailboatowners.com, and see about advertising your drogues on his websites. He gets a lot of traffic, from daysailors to cruisers.

PS - The boat would be sailing without the skipper because he fell overboard.

Bryan, Yeah, I was wondering if thought could be given to another reason to have the apparatus other than extreme ocean survival.

At the same time I was wondering if, instead of the ubiquitous where-the-hell-did-I-put-it bag that has to be extracted from the bottom of a locker, if the gear could already be attached to the pushpit in a dedicated cover. I imagine it would be a sunbrella package that would live permanently above the taffrail on the stern.

Out of the bag on top the eye at the end of the drogue would be exposed. For storm use, a weight would be attached. For everyday cruising the seriesdrogue would have a float attached. A tug on a trip line and it would be released from its velcroed bag.

Since the idea is to trail the drogue to save the ship, it popped into my brain (my girlfren sez I am Al Z. Heimers) that trailing a drogue might also save the blathering skipper. AND SLOW THE BOAT DOWN as you write.
Seems like there's good stuff to grab on to, instead of a knotted rope. Since the gear requires dedicated chainplates (persuaded by your advice) off the rear, rapid deployment and dual purposing to my way of thinking follows.

Since a drogue is a drogue maybe a few foot loops could be introduced into the line. Maybe double pass knotting would be mandated. Dual use could/might also perk the interest of coastal or freshwater or bay sailors. Even couples with kids. Remember, the USCG has already suggested a alternate use for the drogue.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
A needless Alexandrine ends the song That, like a wounded snake, drags its slow length along. ------Pope :D

It is a Scott Galloway thread where we had discussion about singlehanded safety and getting back on board after a mishap. Scott was very generous showing his system, which included a rope ladder that would be pulled down by someone in the water.

I wouldn't have chance to pull myself up onto Augustine's deck. I need a much more substantail method that would sustain a soaking wet overweight pissedoff frightened septagenarian.

There definitely will be an overbuilt pushpit on 338. There very well could be a strong fold down ladder on the stern. There is no way that normal people can climb on board a boat from the water without a least two rungs under the water. I'm supernormal, I perfer three! Would you agree that in a turmoil the stern of the boat is the most accessable for a man overboard to climb back? That's what I think, seeing myself in the drink.

Therefor that bridle becomes very important. If you step where the three lines are joined, where does that put you at the transom. Can you fold down the rigid ladder from there? Maybe the bridle could be rigged with extra steps.

There is no way one can predict a correct method of saving your own life. You rig the best jacklines and tethers and wear the best gear to prevent an accident. I can see a slip and a bang and ending up groggy and hurt in the water still connected to the boat. Would work my self aft and yank the tripline of the seriesdrogue. There's lots of lovely orange stuff to grab handfulls of. As it streams out it slows the boat, My legs become vertical as I step into the bridle, wait a moment for the stern to dip and quick reach for all that nice welded tubing! :o

Dear Ebb and Epiphany
I will have a look at the site re advertising.
as for man overboard lifesaving equipment, You could have a safety line attached to the drogue to pull it out from the water but maybe its better to have someting better trailing all the time.
Other uses for the drogue. my drogue that i am testing has 2 lines one with 70 cones and one with 30 cones. joined by eye splices. I also have lines that run from the bridlelegs to my sheet winches, with the 30 cones attached I can use this set up for steering the boat if my rudder or steering is disabled, without slowing me down too much. I think it would work fine with 20 cones.
The drogue line and leader can also be used as extra ground anchor line in an emergency.
I have a very small series drogue with 10 cones, on 8 meters of line, I use this when coming ashore in my dingy to a beach, this is enough to stop the dingy broaching in the shore break,
I am in the process of designing an all purpose bag for the drogue that will hang on cockpit rail, and assist in deployment. sailrite have a pattern for a storage/deployment bag on their site, but its not right.
I went to a funeral today, in a small coastal town called Port Fairy, on the central south coast of Victoria. This is a fishing, potato growing, and dairy farms, it was settled by the Irish in the 1840's and has not changed one bit.
The gentleman who died was 90 and had been a blacksmith/wheel wright. The service was catholic and at the wake good whisky flowed, with cold beer in between. A lot of these old men were 5th or more generation from the district, but still had some Irish accent. These blokes fished in small boats 20 to 25 ft, they were interested in the series drogue, but roared with laughter at the idea, but did say that when in a bad storms (this is bass strait) they would trail their net behind them, sometimes for days at a time.
regards
Bryan

I'm sure to order the full 100 (maybe more) when the IRS is finished squeezing me and I find out what I have left in the bank.

Don't know what you have in mind for the ondeck deployment bag (with the tail end eye exposed - you know, hook on the weight and toss it) but if it is simple to stow the rig it would be likely to get practiced or played with. Unlike a lifesling that gets faded and moldy and somewhat a mystery in its wrap. "Hey. skipper, Can't read the instructions! How do you open this thing!!"

'Simple' would be that it goes back into the bag as it is pulled from the water, or easily repacked from the cockpit. Have to wash it first, right? I am sure to install tangs off the quarters, so the bridle would also be continuously shackled to the boat. Since the device is actually made by the person who is going to use it, it has the advantage of being up close and personal.

Would be great exercise and fun to learn to steer with the rudder lashed and various lengths of cones and bridles. Get to know your friendly drogue, folks.

Question:
Suppose we call the automatically deployed series drouge of 70 cones for the Ariel/Commander the 'passive' one. This is the boatsaver drogue attached to chainplates. I would still have the option of weight or float to add to the drouge befor pulling the cord. I think I would sail with a float or fender clipped on and trail a fathom of knotted propylene.

For the moment I can't see how lines from the bridle could be led to port and starboard cockpit winches. (Unless an extra pair of lines are clipped to the bridle eye at the tether and led up to chocks and to the winches.) Would this make for more control in a storm situation? At least it does provide a retieval method. And load would only be on the winches by choice, as the drogue load is on the quarters.

So the question is, do you think separate and shorter cone series could be streamed off the quarters for directional control? Or more braking? They obviously could be removed at any time. (The 'active' ones) Too much? Feasible? Anyway, assume there'll be plenty of time to custom the system once it is onboard!

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????

At this time there has been more than 200 hits on this thread, so, as often is the case on this site, there has been some interest from the ostrich farm but most still have their heads in the sand. I'm sure they will get hungry soon! :D

Dear Ebb
The series drogue is designed to save you and your boat in a once in a life time storm, such as the fastnet or 1998 syd-hobart, you cannot play around with the design. Don Jordan spent 5 years, working with coast guard getting it right.
In saying that, I play around with small changes for my own use, I dont sell these changes.
One addition to the basic design is 2 extra lines running from rings built into the bridle legs to the sheet winches. 2 years ago in a storm in bass strait following the 40 deg south line I used this system to steer in 60k winds to the lee of the Kent group of islands. The details will be in the next issue of DDDB. Here is a photo of my boat a 28ft swanson

Hey Bryan'
Gotcha. Know where you're coming from.
Tough little boat you got there! :D

DDDB = Drag Device Data Base

Seriously thinking about going blue? Just for fun, check out:
'Cruising Home. Sea Anchor. Drogue, Radar Detection, DDDB, Para Tech'
www.cruisinghome.com/main.htm

"this is a test, this has only been a test"
ebb's an ole wind bag
but he got three stitches on every seam :rolleyes:

Bryan:

I found your comments most interesting and insightful, and thank you for taking the time.

A couple comments before my questions. As a background, I cruise the Great Lakes. Fresh water waves are steeper and more closely spaced than ocean waves. The theoretical maximum wave height is about 35 feet, with, in a bad storm, 20-25 foot waves being regularly encountered. Winds can get up into the 100+ mph range in extreme storms, but the duration is generally limited to less than a couple hours before it tapers off to the 50 mph range. A day or two of 50 mph would be maximum and extreme. When the very high winds occur - at the onset of a storm -, the seas are generally flat, the waves tops being blown off the water surface. Later the waves come up.

Lake Michigan is only 80 miles across, with many islands in the northern reaches, so going aground on a leward shore is a very real threat. Another threat is the cold - a reason to go below for a bit. But, because of freighter traffic, and other boats, a skipper would be unlikely to stay below for too long (there might be exceptionsto this rule).

I have not experienced the Ariel swinging when at anchor. I have been in some strong storms at anchor, and the boat has always pointed to weather, so I don't think swinging is a problem (but don't know when socked by waves).

I do have a para-tech sea anchor, with a rig that holds the sea anchor a variable angle of about 30 degrees off the bow quarter. I test it each year in 25 mph winds (I try not to go out when it is blowing more and have been lucky not to get caught). The thing is wonderful, but scares me when it comes to more violent weather, principally because of my previous experience with a single cone drogue.

1. How big (volume - dimensions) is the series drogue for an A/C when stowed. I don't have much space - space being more limited than weight.

2. I had a drogue many years ago, and it scared the you know what out of me. Two problems. The bow consistently fell off, leaving me sailing full bore parallel to the waves. I couldn't turn downwind or up wind. The force on the drogue was so severe that I couldn't get it in either. I didn't have to cut the line, but came close to doing so. What is the liklihood that I would have a similar experience with the series drogue?

3. I have given considerable consideration to whether the drogue/sea anchor should be mounted from the bow or the stern, and have concluded the bow, or bow quarter are best. Unlike your example, I expect to be in the cockpit continuously. The Lake waves are steeper, although they don't have the energy of ocean waves. My experience heaving-to makes me feel more comfortable heading into the wind. Generally, sailboats with more engine power, motor into the wind in this part to hold position. Does this information change your preference of bow or stern?

4. How do you recover the device when the wind tapers down to a cool 30-50 knots? How do you collapse it when there is a strain?

5. Paratech recommends 400 feet of line. How much line does the series drogue require? Their theory is that the line should span two crests so that the line is never slack or skipping over the water.

6. Can you envision having both a series drogue and a sea anchor? If so, when would you use one and when the other?

I look forward to your comments and thank you.

I reread K Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" this week. Fascinating stuff, enough so that you can almost start the book over again as soon as you've finished. At the same time, it makes one look at their boat in a new and interesting way, from the perspective perhaps of a 35-50' breaking swell in Force 7 or stronger winds.

Getting into that extreme of a storm, the experiences gathered together in the book seem to say that lying bow-to in a sea of that state is a definite no-no, and the strategy of those who had most successfully survived the nastier of the nasty's was to run off before the storm, keeping enough way on the boat for good steerage, but not allowing her to overspeed (at the risk of broaching or pitchpole). Large breaking swells coming from abaft can thus be taken 15-20 degrees from the quarter to minimize their impact on the boat, while allowing the swell to pass onward so that the boat doesn't surf with it. (The one noteable exception to this was Dumas, whose boat it must be pointed out was designed to be able to be surfed at up to 15 knots in survival storm conditions encountered below 40 South.)

It would seem that the series drogue, which was not invented yet at the time of the books publication, would be an almost ideal tool for attempting this strategy. Easier to handle and stow than large 2" warps or auto tires, it might be a good idea to carry 2 or more of them if one was venturing far offshore into areas where such conditions might develop.

A couple other observations gleaned from this recent reading -

It hurts to say this, but our shapely Ariel sterns might not be the best type to have during these sorts of conditions - the book favors double-enders with a good bit of volume in their fannies (like Bryans boat, or the Colin Archer designs). That shape enables the stern being lifted by the water of the collapsing sea as it rushes down on the boat.

Nearly all the boats which had problems had too-small cockpit drains. You have to be able to let the water out *fast*, before the next one comes down on you. Of course, the larger the cockpit, the more important this is. (Anyone else recall Robin Lee Graham decking over the cockpit of "Dove" after having similar experiences?) I'm thinking that perhaps it might be a good idea to design a box to fit and fasten into the cockpit footwell, one which will reduce the amount of fillable area, as well as serving as a storage space, perhaps for the series drogue(s) or similar, and maybe the infamous "ditch bag" filled with survival stuff.

Nearly all the damage reported by boats which were tossed or slammed down by giant waves came from *the impact experienced on the lee side of the boat*, when it came to a sudden stop after being thrown forward by a wave. That's right, it's not the wave impact which stoves in the cabin top or deadlights, it's the impact against the water of the wave or trough *ahead* which is strong enough to burst or break things, in a surprising majority of the stories related in the book.

As I said before, fascinating stuff.

Hey, looking at Bryan's boat's pointy stern,
why would you think the Ariel's stern is less bouyant with the transom?

Lee shore danger may require a seaANCHOR,
but pulling a series drogue off a bridle (so the boat is dead on the wind & waves) when you got room in a terrible storm with breaking crests that come aboard is the ONLY way I can see - so far. Tuning the boat for the conditions seems difficult at the moment (lack of experience). Are there times when more cones should be streamed than others? Will there be a time when the drogue should be offcenter?

Getting the water immediately off the boat is imperitive.
Closing the cockpit well off entirely seems worth considering. If the cockpit is rigged for sleeping maybe a clever folding system of panels would work that could still allow working access. There is a lot of weight in the volume of the footwell alone.
On 338, higher coamings for back support will require relieving ports. Imagining a wave filling the back end of the Ariel in terms of weight seems a little overwhelming.

But the closed volume of bouyancy aft in the Ariel has to be at least proportionally equal if not more to Bryan's. NO? :confused:

Perhaps not less buoyant, but easier for the wave to push on (or ahead), instead of flow around.

Thinking of it that way, the reverse slope of the transom might help push the stern up on an Ariel.

For whatever it is worth, I don't recall ever being pooped in the Ariel, and that includes some good sized seas -well over ten feet (fresh water, steep) - probably more like 15 feet. However, those puppies have come pretty close to running over the transom. That situation, as I recall, was under sail on a clear day. At night you have no idea of how large the waves are. They look bigger, and scarier.

Re: putting the drogue/sea anchor fore or aft, I generally also drag a dinghy astern. One of the problems is that when the series drogue or sea anchor is deployed, the skipper has no idea if he/she will be encountering a bad storm, and is properly set up for it, or whether he/she will be facing the 1,000 year storm/waves that Bryan talks about.

One thought is that perhaps the key to running a series drogue from the stern is that the drag be limited (unlike a sea anchor which stops a craft relatively dead) so that the craft does shoot ahead freely, but is held hard enough so that the bow does not get caught causing the vessel to pitch pole or broach. But then, how do you know, in advance, how many cones that entails to match the drag to the vessel (entails - what a great term for putting drogues astern).

The comments about the cockpit filling are very on point. If the cockpit fills with the first wave, there is no lift when the second wave comes a few moments later (I think the big ones come in threes, as I recall).

Have read that the whole cockpit area should empty in 90 seconds. Assume that is up to the companionway threshold. Thought might be given to tight fitted drop boards. Watertight cockpit seat lids A couple large capacity manual pumps in the cockpit and below. Never aluminum! Best plan is to fill the cockpit with water and time the runout! Probably fit larger drains, run 3 or 4" pvc pipe straight out the transom. Of course, once it is filled with water it won't be able to take on any more.

The series drogue will still allow the A/C serious but controllable speed. 3, 4, 5 knots. Whole idea is to allow waves to pass under the boat and to go with the flow to reduce impact of nasty water. IE, if the storm is going 90 mph and so are you, then relative to the storm you are standing still. Have a feeling less water will come aboard from the stern under series drogue than from the bow under sea-anchor. Have to take Bryon's tested recommendation of 70 to 100 cones and run with that. Literally. :eek:

www.jordanseriesdrogue
is the Ace Sailmakers' dedicated site for the jordan drogue. You get to meet the designer and the (first) maker for sale of this remarkable invention. The site has a revealing page to visit called Storm Waves, read it. It's a good site to visit to round out your knowledge on an event you probably haven't experienced nor likely to. I'm convinced, with seemingly freaky weather changes occuring more often, that a jordan drogue rolled up on the stern is a very important piece of safety gear to have ready to go. Bryon has a better deal on the cones.
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There is a verbal description of wrapping up the drogue beginning on a flat piece of canvas with the bridle ends led to their attachment points on either side of the transom - then the drogue is flaked (figure eights) on top - ending with the chain on top of that. A flap of material is brought over the bundle creating a roll closed with velcro. This method has never produced a tangle. It is deployed by ripping the roll open and tossing in the chain.

I guess it would be about as wide as the stern.

It's not hard to imagine packing the roll carefully and tight in the cockpit with the bridle ends folded on top and the package put in the cockpit locker. When needed (befor it's needed) it is hung outside the stern rail with the bridle ends attached.