Location for holding tank for new head

Has anyone tried installing a new holding tank for the head.
and if you did where did you put it. :)

I pulled the head in favor of a porta-potti. We're only going to use #66 for weekend excursions anyway, so the cost and complexity of a holding tank system is too much.

Do you live in Boston, or one of the burbs? I live in Falmouth.

We too are weekend warriors on the Adele M, and converted to a porta-potti setup a few years ago. No odors, no leaks, sanitary and simple.

Click on the seach button and try "head" "holding tank" and "potty" you should find some useful posts.

Holding tank underneath starboard V-berth.


The hoses for pump out and venting lead up to the deck.

Which company did you get your tank from?
what model #/ etc is it?
much grass
-km #3

The first year I had my boat I put in a new marine head. I made
a shelf that hung from threaded rods in the port V-berth locker.
A 5 gallon Todd will fit easily under here. Where it gets tight is when
you try to fit the 'Y' valve and a manual pump for overboard
disharge. I did it, it worked, but I will say that working with
the short lengths of sanitation hose in the confined area is hard
on the hands. Try dipping the ends in boiling water to soften them when slipping the hose over fittings. The systems largest obstacle remained where to locate
the vented loop. Mine was just above the water line, I think, but
dangerously close. One day, after recieveing clear instructions, on where to
turn the valve my wife proceeded to pump the tank out through the vent,
the horror! I went to a portapotti the next season, simple, no smell, you don't
need to be a plumber to use it and most importantly no back-siphoning.
Cheers B.
Commander #215

...and don't forget Geoff who put the tank in underneath the 'forward cabin sole.' With the head right on top. Not quite having a complete picture of his solution, it does seem that raising the deck here in the V-berth area certainly has nothing to do with losing any headroom. Pumpout might be a problem, I'd guess. (I mean just how would you lead the hoses? A fair bit of grp work involved!

I was kinda curious because I've got the old water tank
in front which isn't connected to the sink. The former owner
or the one before him connected two flexible water tanks in
back. I was thinking in the v-berth and get rid of the old tank
I liked commanderpete's picture of the holding tank on the
starboard side. I was just wondering like mrgnstrn is it 5
gallons and who makes it. Any advice on which head or
porta potti to go with?


John :confused: :)

The small Sea/Land portable toilet sold by West Marine fits perfectly in the Ariel's marine head location. Comes with ss brackets for locking it to the sole.

I don't have the specs on the holding tank on my boat. The system had been installed before I bought the boat. I'll try and get some measurements. Its a standard rectangular shape.

Although a marine head/holding tank is nice to have, I have to go along with the porta-potty crowd. Unless you have a special need or desire for a holding tank, the benefits don't seem to warrant the trouble of installing the system.

Locating the pumpout hoses is one issue. If they are installed like mine, the V-berth cushion will no longer fit. The previous owner of my boat had new cushions made that were shaped to go around the hoses.

Its the Todd 5-gallon tank. You might think about running the vent and
pumpout thru the V-berth and up into the rope locker and out. No visible hoses.
What seems to me the biggest problem is where you can mount the vented loop
so that it can perform its mighty task. Also don't confuse the Porta-Pottie capacity
with holding tank capacity. A PP. contains pure septic, the holding tank and marine head
set up requires alot of water to pump the solids through. I have a marine head for sale,
a complete system-head,Y-valve,holding tank, vented loop, discharge pump, hoses, clamps etc.
Make an offer. My Sanipottie MSD 3 1/2 gallon is not for sale.

As for the water tank I allways wanted one and I finally found a stainless one that fits
perfectly in the v-berth. This is definately the place for additional weight. The tank
is a little rough , some welding and inspection ports needed, so I'm thinking about a
Vetus flexible V-tank, about 15 gallons for the foreward space, instead. Cant wait to
pull the 20 gal tank out from under the cockpit. The question is how are these flexible
tanks vented? Maybe you can just leave the fill cracked, well above the tank. Anyone
have thoughts on flexible tanks in this application?
Cheers, B.
Commander#215

where did you find it? is it a one-off or out of a catalog, or supplier?
much grass,

I took some approximate measurements of my tank, shown below.

Its smaller at the bottom, to account for the curve of the hull. Its a real tight fit. A little more narrow at the bottom would fit better.

I'm sure its larger than a 5 gallon tank, since the Todd 6 gallon is 8" H x 12" W x 16" L

9 or 10 gals?

Has anyone installed a holding tank on a Commander? We plan on doing a lot of sailing in the North Channel of Lake Huron this season and checking on Canada's web site, it says it is illegal (even for foreign vessels) to have a porta-potti. Here is a quote from one of their officals in an email to me..

Regarding portable toilets, they are illegal in Ontario waters. This means
that the toilet must be visibly disconnected while in these waters.
For more information on foreign vessels in Canada, please refer to
Requirements for Foreign Recreational Boaters In Canadian Waters on our
web-site: http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/obs-bsn/facts/foreign_e.htm#6

looks to me (but I don't know, I'm just pumping this out) -

that the letter of the law says that if you have a pumpout hose that is connected to a deck pumpout fitting (one that says 'WASTE') and the other end is connected to your portapotti, it is no longer a portable toilet. Is that right?:D

So, Sealand makes a SaniPottie "Portable/Permanent" head. 338 has a Thetaford which may be similar, haven't used it yet. So what if you have one of these 2 part heads rigged as if permanent complete with a vent? I mean I would carry it ashore if I had to, yes I would, OR pump it out - which ever was more convenient. Consider it an environmental option.

So thinking about this: I know for a fact even if the coast guard has forgotten that healthy humans make healthy pee. I have read that it is antiseptic, and you'll find it mentioned in survival manuals as a wash for wounds. That's good enuf for me and canada. I'll have a bucket for the liquid ($22, WM) and only put solids in the bottom tank of the p,p, - with a squirt of the blue stuff.

Are there other solutions??? I think this is an important subject for discussion!!!

:eek:

That is a good idea. In fact I know of another sailor who has the same kind of porta-potti on his Pearson 30. He sailed last season in the North Channel with it, but he did not have it hooked up to any hose for pump-out. His boat was never inspected by any custom's officers. I did a little research on their web page and this is the Canadian's regulation for a holding tank on a vessel.

Holding Tank
6. Where a pleasure craft is fitted with a holding tank, the tank shall
(a) be an integral part of the hull structure of the pleasure craft or be securely attached to the hull;
(b) be constructed of structurally sound material that prevents the tank contents from leaking;
(c) be resistant to corrosion by sewage;
(d) have an adequate capacity for the craft's normal complement;
(e) be provided with a discharge connection and piping system for the removal of the tank contents by a pumping facility;
(f) be designed so that the level of sewage in the tank may be determined without the tank being opened and without contacting or removing any of the tank contents, or be equipped with a device that allows that determination to be made; and
(g) be equipped with ventilation device that
(i) has its vent outlet located on the outside of the pleasure craft and in a safe location,
(ii) prevents the build-up within the tank of
pressure that could cause damage to the tank,
(iii) is constructed of material that cannot be
corroded by sewage, and
(iv) has a flame screen of non-corrosive material fitted to the vent outlet. :cool:

whoa! a flame screen TOO?

Let's hope they don't find the Henderson manual waste pump with the long hoses attached

seems like some committee wrote a law specifically describing the white translucent polypropylene waste tank. Suppose some posh yacht has an Incinolet (incinerator) ? Or how about the AirHead. Certainly and arguably environmentally friendly. Go to jail for that?

Someone here on the West Coast can better than I talk about the BCDC who legislated many anchor-outs out of existence by labeling them as 'illegal land fill.' Yes, they were dumping their nasties overboard. But they never fined a single town sewer district who let their million gallon systems overflow into the Bay. Never heard of a single Navy ship get cited. Don't hear too much about the bay conservation district anymore because they cut their money so I guess it became too expensive to persecute.

Then, what? You have to install a waste tank and a godawful manual head. Isn't there an 'under 30' exception rule?' A 13' daysailer isn't going to plumb a wilcoxcrittenden in the cockpit is it? There must be some sanity. Why would the government force people to break the law? As if every yachty dumped all at once that a measurement of the polution it caused could scientifically prove any impact on the environment.

It'll come down to inspecting your log for pump station visits and checking your waste station receipts against the number of crew on some average volume per person per day.

"Yes sir. You see, sir, I was seasick the whole time. Yes sir, couldn't keep my granola down. Sir, you say it's illegal to vomit overboard.....?"

I know it is riduculous, but they have their regs, just like we have some crazy regs here in the US. I think that if our boats meet the USCG standards, as a "visiting" foreign vessel, we should be able to use our porta-potties or other enviroment friendly toilets. I just want to "visit" their waters. Unfortunately, I might not be doing that, until we get our other boat fitted out and in the water. It already has a head and holding tank.
I was looking in the catalogs last night and there is such a thing as a "flexible" holding tank. Holds something like 24.5 gals. When full it is only 12"high. The dimensions sounds like it could fit in the V-berth area, then run the venting pipes out the chain/rode area? Anyone familiar with this? How much of a holding tank for water does anyone think is needed for a manual head? Could also get the "soft" water tanks and install on port or starboard in the v-berth area.:confused:

SailorLiz
Glad to see you're still with us. Are you considering a flexible holding tank just to become compliant for Canadian waters or are you actually intending to use it? Although flexible tanks are used for water I believe most would shy away from using them for holding tanks. Failure from repetitive motion and stress from stiff sanitation hoses are the major concerns. Not to mention that freezing and thawing tend to shorten the life of most plastics out there. It seems that all the arguments I've heard are stating reasons why you shouldn't use one. The only argument for their use ( and it's not really even an argument ) it that they are less expensive alot of the time and they conform to the space they are tucked into. Surely you've heard the same arguments against use.
In reply to your question how much, I remember reading 6 gal per crew member per week. I've never 'monitored' my own effluent for a week (yet, that is) but that sounds like alot.
Geez, I didn't want to bombard you with all of this negative 'crap' but I'd hate to see you do someting you'd regret later, like when you have to remove a used flexible holding tank.
But on the other hand, if this is just a means to an end for a summer cruise to get off the ground.....:D

Hi Toni,
Yes, I'm still here. Have been lurking for most of the winter. I will probably still be here, even when we do sail our "other" boat eventually. We do love the Commander. It has been a fun boat to sail and we do a lot of "weekending" with it. Back to the American Crap in Canada!

Yes, we want to conform, as it would be my luck that our boat would be the oneinspected by the Canadian customs. Then there would be seizure, fines, etc. I would like to try and avoid that. If we do upgrade to a head and holding tank, then yes, we would use it, as in The N. Channel, we would be living on the hook most of the time.

I also seen a small plastic holding tank. I think it was 6 gals. That was also about the price of the flexible holding tank. We don't use the old water tank in the commander. It is made of some sort of metal and really should be taken out of the V-berth area. So we are now talking about installing those bladders for fresh water their and install a holding tank, under the cockpit? There is a lot of unused room there. Would that be feasible with the plumbing?

>>>and install a holding tank, under the cockpit? There is a lot of unused room there. <<< Try to avoid putting anything in that section of the boat. As you have probably read in other posts, extra weight at the stern impacts the boat's balance, causes additional water intrusion when motoring and etc. A better location might be under the quarter berths.

A thought. Have you spoken directly to the Canadian authorities about the requirements? Maybe there are acceptable alternatives for visitors.

I was afraid that might be the answer. Hmmm...I guess we will have to uncover the boat this weekend and take a good look in the cabin area and do some measuring and figuring. We really don't want to spend a lot of time or money on this project. The other problem we have when cruising is that we are well prepared, so if we install a holding tank, we will lose some of our storage area. I was hoping to utilize that area under the cockpit. It seems to be "wasted" space. On the Airels, wasn't that space used to install the Inboard engines?
Brendan, if your reading this I e-mailed you about your set-up that you have for sale. I'm interested.

As far as talking to officials, the person who emailed me the link and information was Monica Kett
Information Officer/Agente d'information
Office of Boating Safety/Bureau de la securité nautique
Fisheries and Oceans Canada/Pêches et Océans Canada
kettm@DFO-MPO.GC.CA

I think this agency is the equivalent to our US Coast Guard?:rolleyes:

>>>On the Airels, wasn't that space used to install the Inboard engines? <<< Just about under the sink, actually.

I didn't mean that the tank in the picture was a Todd 5-galllon.
I was just relaying experience I have had with one. The tank in
the drawing looks alot bigger than the 5. As for the stainless tank
I aquired, it came out of a,you guessed it, Commander that was
being parted up at my boatyard. I got the rig, rudder shafts,
some sails, fore-hatch and lots of other Commander goodies.
You could talk me out of this tank cheap. I've got abig re-core
project going on and I'm thinking a nice clean, flexible tank in the
bow might be just the ticket.
Cheers, B.
Commander#215

'Brendan,

Did you happen to get the hull number of the Commander being "parted up?"

Hull # should be on the Mainsail if you got that too .

I took the liberty of checking the board today and noticed quite a
few posts so I figured, I'd throw this one in. Sanipotties are on
Searay boats and can be connected to a tank they can goe either
way. ;) John

Well, the snow has melted and we finally uncovered the commander this weekend and climbed on board. We came up with another idea for a holding tank. Why can't we just use the old water tank? I'm not for sure if this one leaks, (we are going to try it out, as we have never used it) but if not, my hubby says we can buy the fittings for the tank and convert it to a holding tank for a manual head. We would put the marine head in the space where the port-potti is. It did have a manufactures name plate on it, but I didn't get the name. I'm not for sure if this is a steel or monal tank, but it is metal. I think this would get us by here in the Great Lakes and the North Channel. We would then buy a flexible freshwater tank to put on the starboard side under the v-berth for the sink. Any opinions?

Liz,

I am interested in the outcome of your decision. Does using the water tank as a waste holding tank offer you the opportunity to run your through-deck pump-out and vent line from the holding tank forward through the anchor locker and up to the deck rather than try to conceal those lines as they run through the crew quarters in the V Berth area?

Yes, it does. That was another reason for using it. It already has a vent for the water tank, so we just need to reroute it? I also went through some old paperwork from the previous owner. He had a survey done (for insurance purposes) and the surveyor says it is aluminum. So now we need to go back to the boat and check the tank out to make sure it won't leak. I am placing an order today with Defender for a manual compact toilet, a though hull fitting, seacocks and a deck plate for waste. Will order hoses and other stuff after we decide for sure where the plumbing will be going.

just one word of caution, make sure that the old water tank material is compatible with sewage.
fiberglass might be ok, but most metal tanks aren't.
but if it is metal, you might be able to yank it out, cut the top off, put a good few layers of really thick epoxy, or something to cover/conceal the metal, and then put the top back on (maybe a few layers of fiberglass tape).

i had gone through this thought process too.
but i figured that it would be easier to make a tank, stitch and glue style, than to refurb/convert the actual old tank.
using the drawing in the manual, you can do a little math and figure out all the lengths and angles on each piece of wood. then just a little(lot) bit of epoxy, and you're in business!

but i like your idea of using that space to house the holding tank.

2 and a half cents from yer west coast epoxier...
First, I would guess that if the bow tank is monel or stainless that it would be ok to use as a waste tank. What is the scuttlebutt on these metals - does anybody know for sure?

Having removed my monel tank, and epoxy and matted in a chain locker, I can say that it would be pretty easy to create a tank in that area using the already glassed in V-berth (cut back to remove the tank per the Manual) as your parameter. Epoxy IMCO would make an excelent holding tank. 100% solids epoxy only, Please! Prepping the hull under the V-berth is pretty easy as Pearson didn't spray paint in there.

Just to throw this out too... wouldn't it also be possible to still have a small bow tank or bladder for potable water up there too? Depending, of course, on your use of the forepeak: sails, chain, anchors, line, etc.

I just spoke with a guy from Defender. He said maybe we would get five years from an aluminum tank. But he also pointed out on their web page, that there is a waste bow tank made. So if need be, looks like we can order one to fit.

Here is the link http://www.defender.com/cgi-bin/Web_....cgi?cart_id=:)

whatever happened to that monel tank?

I got there first!

aww, nuts.

I am probably going to go with a new sealand sanipottie. The
boatyard that is helping me with some of the work recommended
it due to the complications of putting the tank and pipes in. The
stainless steel brackets are still there so it's easier to do,:)

Well sorry guys, I didn't follow thru with this thread, as to what we finally did. I have pictures of the conversion and installation, that I will post in the gallery. We did figure out that the tank is indeed monel. (I have forgotten now the "research time" involved with this). We figured at least three years of use, before having to replace with a plastic tank. We purchased a Wilcox-Crittedeon compact manual head. We then proceeded to purchase other plumbing parts. Some from hardware stores and others from Defender, and the local West Marine. After spending apporx. $350.00 we have a head with a holding tank of approx. 8.5 gals. Check out the pictures, then you can post your questions, and I will try to answer them the best that I can.

Fair Winds

Hi,
I have removed the old marine head and plan on replacing it with a porta-potti. Towards the front of the wooden platform where the previous head was located is the outlet and valve for the water tank. This reduces the available fore and aft measurement to 13 inches which is inadequate to accomodate the smallest potti. I am wondering how others have dealt with this and have been able to place the potti here.
Thanks,
Marcelo

Hi Marcelo,

Commander #65 has the same porta potty that I've got - original perhaps? No idea. I have no outlet or valve for the water tank either, so the porta potti fit real nicely in there.

From Lucky Dog's thread:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...5&postcount=21
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...7&postcount=17

Mike,
Thanks for obtaining those pics. I wonder how most of the water tanks are plumbed since yours does not have the same arrangement as I have in mine. I will try to find a thread about this.

Marcelo
Ad Astra #407