encapsulated ballast

338 is still out of her element on the hard and i'm wondering if anyone has filled the 'empty spaces' in the lead keel area and how they did it? What kind of space is actually there (a pints worth, a gallon...?) you know, how well does the ballast fit the mold? Is there garbage in there like sawdust or balsa?
I think the water is out - and I know one way is to drill a number of small holes a few inches apart vertically in the suspect hollow areas and squirt in the plastic from the bottom up. But why not drill some holes inside on the top of the encapsulation to dribble in the plastic?
And there seems to be some advantage to using polyester, it's cheaper, if there's quantity envolved, and you can adjust for a longer liquid stage for more thoro penetration and less heat. What about vinyester here? More possible adhesion? Epoxy won't crystalize like polyester and could make a real solid impact resistant fix. The reason for doing it Any ideas on this befor I make another rash decision? {I'm sorry if I missed this in the Manual} ebb

Ebb,
1:1 or 2:1 epoxy has less tendency to blush , so it would be prefered if you must do several sessions to get a fill , cause you wont be able to get in there to clean off the blush that you will get with WEST system or any 5:1 epoxy.
As you know , blush will hinder a secondary bond .
I would stay away from poly or vinylester for this job .

Mike

This may not answer your question, but you might have a little laugh at my expense.

I had noticed that my boat was riding a little down at the stern. I couldn't figure out why she wasn't sitting properly on her lines. It seemed clear that there was too much weight at the stern.

I read in the manual that there were keel voids where prodigious amounts of water could collect. I convinced myself that there must be a keel void above the rudder shoe where tons of water had collected.

When the boat was on the hard I broke out my cordless drill. I drilled away into the keel about 12 inches above the rudder shoe. I stood back waiting for all that water to come streaming out............Nothing............Then I drilled another hole................
Nothing. There was a void but no water.

I hooked up a shop vac and stuck a tube in the hole. After two days of alternately pumping and sucking air I ended up with about two ounces of water for my trouble.

I had meant to pump in some urethane foam in there to fill the void but was so disgusted I just sealed the holes.

The next year I discovered why my boat was not riding evenly on her lines----the water tank at the bow of the boat was empty. Once I filled the water tank she sat perfectly.

I guess the moral of the story is the lesson I've learned several times--- If it aint broke don't break it.

If you're going to fill a keel void perhaps do it with something lighter than resin, which is going to weigh more than water anyway. Even better, leave it alone.

On the positive side, I did learn something by drilling into the keel. The fiberglass in the keel is over 1 1/2 inches thick. These suckers are built. They don't need any reinforcement.

Regards,

Peter

Thanks guys for responding - Mike. I have been using an unembarrased 2:1 epoxy. Strengthning with more lams the hull/deck join which was embarrasing, two layers of factory glass. And re-establishing the cove in the keel the rudder sits in - had damage there, and the fix befor me they had moved the shoe further aft and filled in the cove. Also been closing off thruholes. One just 2" above the ballast on the port side showed maybe 3/8' only. Don't know about bullet proof. There's a guy onb the Alberg 30 page with a photo of a hole in his transom 1 and 1/8" thru, THAT'S b.p.
The only really thick stuff was when I drilled up into the bottom of the keel just forward of the shoe, buried a 3/8' jobber, all glass. But that's where you'd expect to find it. Have copy of part of a letter where Everet says how difficult it was to glass the narrow keel areas. Ariel and Triton are sinle mold, no tumblehome, etc.

It's just that it'll take 3 beers to drill those holes in the ballast area from the outside - guess I will. Another thought opting foe epoxy as filler here is that it isn't a crystaline structure like poly and could help keep it all together monolithically, gulp, in the event of a grounding. Regaards, ebb

maybe we've covered this befor but I'd really like to have some opinions about this extra lead casting that came with 338 but is not in the boat. It weighs 120# and was obviously cast to fit down in what I know as "the sump" and would in effect be an extension of the ballast there.
I understand it was supplied by Pearson with OB Ariels to equalize the lines with those with Atomic 4s. Great it's still with this boat.
I'm ofcourse intending to bluewater which will add weights all over the boat including the rig. Wouldn't it therefor be a clever idea to add this piece of lead way down low to offset my additions, even though it's adding to the overall weight of the boat? thanks, ebb

eeb,
I have an ob Ariel too -- where is the addtional ballast placed exactly? Without knowing, I don't know if it is or isn't in my boat. All I know is that she sits down a bit in the stern -- like nearly every Alberg design I've seen in person.
And more important to me (with my bluewater dreams): to what bluewater destinations are you planning to take your Ariel?
--Dave

Pull the steps out , open the little hatch in front of the battery box mount , look down in the bilge with a flashlight , mine was in 2 castings .

if there are no extra pig(s) there there is a definite 6 - 7 - 8" drop to where the old sock, original hosestrainer, and dead float switch are buried. Some miguided former owner may have faired in the pigs with something (like Henry's) to get a smooth bottom, there would be no break in the ballast run from under the sole.

Some owners have moved the lead pigs forward in the bilge and under the maincabin sole in an effort to shift the weight forward. If you don't see any in your bilge, then a previous owner has probably removed them. Not very likely they were glassed into the bilge :)

As noted earlier, the lead is there primarily to meet an older racing rule where inboard model boats were competing with outboard model boats.

Taking out the lead makes the boat more "lively" when you step aboard, and a bit faster.

hey Bill, cuspidorpete on another unraveling here has a wonderful misadventure where he discovers all he had to do to get his baby to float on her lines was to fill the forward water tank!!

Mine is located under the cabin sole just aft of the bulkhead. with empty water tank I am very slightly stern heavy untill I load about 4-200 pounders into the cockpit for a daysail.

When someone wonders how she floats to the waterline I ask them to lean over the side and let me know--as they stick their torso over the rail, I gently nudge their posterior with my boot. After the resounding splash I say "How's she floating now?"

We put those 200 pounders on the rail out here. Helps in the summer to keep the boat sailing level:>

My main ballast has these big rusty eyebolts stuck in the top. Must be for cinching the extra pigs on to, so they won't get loose.

All,
I have looked into the aft section of the bilge to determine the configuration of ballast in 357 -- an outboard model.
The ballast is glassed in past the point where the encapuslated ballast falls sharply away under the stairs. Aft of the glassed in section there is one 4" x 4" x ? lead casting with a hoisting eye. Aft of that is a deep 4" x 4" well or sump.
My questions: is that the "normal" configuration? Or is there supposed to be another casting in the well?
I want to add ballast forward -- has anyone out there added ballast to the bilge area under the head and under the forward section of the cabin sole? Did you use lead? In what form?
--Dave G

Re #76 -- Under the sole in front of the step on which the head sits, a former owner glassed in three lead pigs by wrapping them in matt. Each pig is about an inch and a half thick, three or four inches wide and about a foot long. The bilge is very shallow in that area, so that's about the maximum unless you want to melt and pour the stuff. :p

The outboard model boats came with two lead castings placed loose in the bilge. The lead ballast encapsulated in the keel has a couple of iron lifting rings that Peason left showing in the bilge about midway under the maincabin sole.

Bill

I have found the two extra weights make the Ariel significantly stiffer. This summer I removed the weights for an extended period of time. During this period I was sailing a fully loaded boat (3 people and a bilge full of drinks) In that situation, I didn't notice a decrease in stability. However, when the bilge was emptied at the end of the summer, and while I was sailing solo, the boat was significantly less stable. The weights have been returned to the forward section of the bilge and I have regained stability.

If you are racing, you may not want that "stability" because the Ariel sails fastest with a significant heel (in my opinion). However, for cruising, and with guests, having the rail in the water may not be what makes everyone feel relaxed.

The balance point for the Ariel is about where the locker is. By placing the weights as far forward as possible in the bilge, they do not affect the forward/aft balance, but do help with stability. I use the eyes on the weights for lifting. By placing a line through the eye, they become relatively easy to lift out of the bilge and I don't risk smashing fingers.

I have partially filled the void between the glass keel and the lead. The gap is about 1/2" on both sides.

With the boat lying on its port side, and the keel being almost horizontal (leaning slightly downward), I drilled a 1" hole on the side of the starboard (upper) side of the keel, near the bottom, and filled in the keel well with epoxy resin, up to the hole. I then put a plastic drain plug in the hole.

What I was hoping to accomplish (unencumbered by the thought process) by filling in just one side wa to make the lead more rigid, on one hand, yet by leaving the other side unfilled, a) the keel would not crack the fiberglass because of different coefficients of expansion between the lead and glass, and b) I could drain any water that might accumulate from whatever source, including leakage through the bilge (if I had filled the starboard side as well, there pockets of water might remain trapped.

My recollection is that about two gallons of resin were necessary to fill in one side.

The boat has been sailed two seasons now and everything seems to be fine. When I pull the plug in the keel each season, water does come out. I have no idea where it is coming from (perhaps through the plug itself). Water keeps trickling throughout the winter. However, whatever water is in the keel during the summer, it doesn't hurt anything, as long as it is drained for the winter.