lazarette repairs

Hi guys,
I have some new questions on some of the lazarette repairs suggested in the manual. I've dug out the old foam in the compartments on either side of the outboard well. (It was ompletely water logged) I assumed urethane foam would be a straightforward item to find-but it's not. What is it, who makes it and where do you get it? And what form does it come in?
I found one person that came up with something that you mix 1:1 that was for flotation, is that it?
Also, what adhesive would you use to attach the weather stripping?
The varnishing is finally starting to proceed--the small matter of moving myself and Mischief back to New York sort of interfered.
Robin

Home Depo sells extruded polystyrene in various thickness and sizes,if thats what you need .Foam will absord water extruded polystyrene does not.

You can get closed cell pourable flotation foam from FGCI in Clearwater Fla. I order from them all the time.

www.fgci.com

They have 2.0 lb , 4.0lb & 8.0 lb. 2lb is the most bouyant per cubic ft. 8lb is the stiffest .
2 gal of 2lb makes 8 cu. ft.
2 gal of 4lb makes 4cu ft.
2 gal of 8lb makes 2 cu ft.
The closed cell foam wont absorb water if it is polyurethane and closed cell.

2 gal cost $48 for 2 lb
2 qt cost $19

4 & 8lb are slightly higher.

I have used this product and can vouch for it .

Another idea. I put an innertube in each section and inflated it rather than foam. The benefit/reasoning is that, although it does not keep those sections completely dry, it does exclude a large amount of the water. The main feature is that I can easily remove the innertub for cleaning/whatever (such as replacing the blocks under the access ports when they rot out).

Just did this project. Two quarts of the 2 lb. pourable foam was more than enough. Mike gave you a good lead. Most marine stores charge about $70.00 for two quarts.

This stuff is pretty hilarious to work with. Like a science project.

Afterwards, I would glass over any access holes you cut to dig out the old styrofoam. I don't see the need for an inspection port.

I think water gets in through the drain tube. A little foam come out there when I did this. I'm going to smear the sides of the tube with epoxy using a cheap artist paintbrush.

I'll be installing the weatherstripping soon. Haven't figured out what adhesive to use. I was planning on 3M 4200, but I'm open to suggestions.

Now I remember what I didn't like about the foam routine. I am not a chemist but let me express my concerns.

The outboard motor is a potential source of a fire. Likely located with the motor is one (or two) gas can. Although not on the Ariel, I have had an outboard catch fire, and in a second case found the outboard spewing gas vapor throughout the motor housing. Fire is not unforeseeable. The OMC Ficht engines made shortly before OMC bit the dust were notorious for catching on fire (according to Boat US, as I recall).

My concern about foam is that a) it could become contaminated with gas, or act as a wick for gas or gas vapors, and b) my recollection is that this stuff not only burns, but gives off super toxic gases, such as phosgene and cynanide when it heats up, and c) it either burns or decomposes at relatively low temperatures. If this is true about these gases, I wouldn't even be able to get to open the engine compartment to use a fire extinguisher without being killed or knocked out.

Perhaps someone else can provide some further insight, but I didn't want to take a chance. Fire is one of my greatest single concerns. This may be a bogus concern, or it may be very real.

When the OB well lazarette of 338 was being disassembled, we cut out the 1/4" frp covered plywood and found it sopping wet, the foam was sopping wet and when we scraped out the foam which certainly seemed well adhered to the cavities we found puddles of liquid down in the corners. The foam seemed to be a tan colored two=part polyurethane (ie closed cell). The liquid tasted of salt water. While the process of tearing it smelled of funkey plastic - it never smelled of gas. Wonder why???:confused:

It probably did not smell of gasoline because none leaked into the cavity. #76 sustained stern damage (a 50 power boat backed into it at the dock, but that is another story). When I removed the foam three years ago, it smelled of leaded gasoline (not sold in Calif for about the previous ten years). I replaced the foam with the new stuff and painted. If poison gas from fire is a worry, cover the foam again with plywood. If you do get a good fire going, the fiberglass is likely to burn like crazy anyway.

...here comes a logical answer. Do the repair - fill it with foam or whatever blows yer cavity - soak it real good in salt water - and seal it. Water being heavier than gas, the gas won't get in.
Then again, why fill it and level it when you can just leave it and drill some holes thru for drainage. Just saw a little islander that kept it simple like that.:rolleyes:

While down at the yard tonight I spoke to a person who works with closed cell foam isocynates (polyurethane, for example).The stuff burns "like paper" but more likely at least as easily as petroleum. It does not explode like fuel. The problem is that the least little burning (which you may not see) creates enough cyanide gas to be almost instantly lethal. He got a quick whiff of some accidentally while opening an oven at work, and his lungs collapsed. He survived, but he was totally disabled for a short period. Do your own research, but if you have isocyanates, and you get even a small blaze, don't open the hatch but jump overboard, unless what I have been told is wrong. My judgment is there is a real safety issue putting foam in an outboard engine well. I'd be interested in any comments to the contrary or whether polystyrene is any different.

In my experience, the amount of water getting into the locker while the engine is running prevents any thought of a fire. After things are put away, the plug replaced and the lazarette dries out, at that point I suppose there could be a fire.

Has anyone out there experienced a gasoline (or otherwise) fire in the lazarette?

BTW - a number of years ago, we discussed the foam issue with Bill Shaw. He said it was used in the lazarette to prevent gasoline fumes from collecting in the hollow space under the lazarette sole to prevent the possibility of an explosion. That's a good reason for not leaving the area a void and for keeping the lazarette isolated from the rest of the boat's interior.

From this discussion here I'm going to reconsider putting foam back in the cavities. How about a grating of some sort to get it level with two small scuppers in the corners? Removable grating.

We're slowly making an attempt to clear this compartment of all but the essential plywood motor-mount and the well. It looks like a hole was cut in the bustle and the prefab well glassed in as a unit. We've chiseled out the filler at the bottom of the transom, and because the motor mount is chewed up and untrustworthy looking, we may soon be attacking the filler on the forward part of the well on the bulkhead where the original scupper is... to see what the plywood looks like. Want to make the mount thicker, maybe go athwartship with it May have to move it and/or bring it up for the new Yamaha 4stroke 8 that's going to live there.

The glassed in plywood deck around the well effectively supported and stiffened the whole area so it's not removable perse if you're going to run an ob. I would think the foam was also originally thought of as structural.

Was there a deck port & STBD of the motor well?
I only have one on the port side and looks like no foam under it at all .
Did not know Yamaha was making a 4 stroke 8hp , I thought all mfg were jumping from 6 to 9.8 .
I'm going with the Nissan 6hp 4stroke longshaft, only 55lbs ,the 9's are all over 120lbs and my wife can't pull it from the well or up out of the cabin to put in the well , so we went shopping with rule " she had to be able to pick up motor and carry 20' without stopping ".
Those of you using a 4 stroke , where and how are you stowing it out of the well ?
I know with a 2 stroke you can lay it down any way, but with a 4 you have to keep the head elevated or oil runs into the head and locks up the motor .

'Lo again Mike. 2 little deckies canted toward the center... I thought: nice design, over all, under all the snot.

The Yamaha 8 I went for is 109#, electric start / electric tilt / heavy duty alternator for the battery. Got Yamaha on reputation alone (worldwide parts, reliability, etc.) - don't know nuttin bout ob's. But I will, I will. It's Gorgeous! But it so designed that there is no easy way to rig a bridle for lifting by the Garhauer doodiwhapsis I haven't thought about yet.

ELECTRIC TILT? Oh Nooooo, what's he gonna do? Gasp. Like I say, it will live in the well.

for the record here, I see my appelation has been changed:
I am a professional woodworker acting as a general manager of a small Sonoma CA estate which produces organic merlot and manzanillo olive oil. It sucks a lot of my time and energy. But I am an amateur boat builder (gave away a wood gaff rigged english style reeving bowsprit cutter to get to the Ariel whose underbody makes me creem in my jeans) I dream incessantly of the So Pacific, if it's still there..............................

Ebb, you do know you need to lower the pitch of the prop for pushing an Ariel around . Too much pitch and the motor wont rev and wont develop all 8hp . Did you get the 'Hi-thrust' model , it may come with a lower prop , you should check .

Mike

I got this here 'hi-thrust' model. The kicker's aimed at the sailboat market. The blades look pretty flat to me. If I knew what to measure I'd tell ya, and I'll be looking here to find out what you find out I hope. NICE unit.:cool:

It's most likely a 6 or 6.5" , you should be in great shape with that .

Quote:

---

Originally posted by commanderpete
Just did this project.
This stuff is pretty hilarious to work with. Like a science project.

---

I see what you mean about hilarious. I used a bit too much, actually, a lot too much (being mathematically challenged), the first time so it was extra hilarious for me.
I didn't see the drain holes you talked of--where are they?
I'll be fiberglassing over the holes in the top next.
Robin

Could I please have a show of hands for resin encapsulated ping pong balls?

Seriously...

Sorry, I know my compacted prose style is difficult,
There is, of course, only one drain hole in the lazarette. Almost an after thought in 338, it's right behind the clamping board in the middle. Raw, unlined, 3/4" hole drilled thru the laz deck, thru the board and thru the well.
(Drain holes, plural, please ignore. Unless you are removing the foam and leaving the OB clamping board and the fill-work just forward of it next to the bulkhead. I haven't removed this yet in 338 and is where we found puddles on either side when we removed the foam on either side.
IMHO you cannot run an OB without the deck and the foam unless you engineer structural bracing for the motor-mount to spread the vibration of the motor thruout the compartment. The narrow area behind the board seems like it would be naturally made solid. You would then be left with two areas to be drained, if they were left hollow.)
PING PONG BALLS. What a great idea! Might even mix in a little microballoon into the resin?
I'm persuaded. I'd rather go back to the original solid Pearson lazarette deck concept. This could be the way.

As ebb says, there is just the one drain tube, located under where the outboard is clamped in.

I finished cleaning up that drain tube. From what I can tell, it was just a hole cut through the fiberglass. The tube then runs through wood between the inner and outer skins of fiberglass.

There were some gaps where the wood met the fiberglass. Water was definitely getting in there.

I sanded out the tube with a sanding attachment for the drill, applied penetrating epoxy sealer for the wood, and then filled the gaps with thickened epoxy.

The original drain fix in #76 was only a section of 1/4" brass tubing. Had it removed and replaced with 1" tubing. There was no water egress from the original tubing. The cracks where the plywood lazerette sole meets the stern bulkhead were another matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by noeta-112

Could I please have a show of hands for resin encapsulated ping pong balls?

Seriously...

---

I KNEW I had read this here... :D





(bump).

Seriously,
PPBalls is a good idea! But being spheres they have a lot of volume BETWEEN them that would use up too much epoxy gel filling a couple cubic feet of space.

I haven't experimented yet with this idea. When I mentioned filling spaces in #338 once at my plastic supply, styrofoam pellets came up. They would pack closer and the epoxy gel could probably be a little looser. And the material might flow better into small spaces. But PPBalls could be added to such a mix.

Should experiment, plastic is heavy stuff.

While in the midst of a haul out, I decided to do something about the lazy-rat drain.

Sometimes when or sailing hard or motoring above 5 knots, if the stern squats the lazy-rat will fill with water and my fuel tank, 2 stroke oil bottle, funnel and whatever else will float around until I slow down.

I have noticed that there are times when it would drain, but can not because of the smallish drain (mine is about 3/4”).

I used a 2” hole saw to cut around the current drain hole, and then used a rasp to taper the edges of the hole. I then sawed a piece of 1 ½” fiberglass pipe at a shallow angle, rotated the ends and epoxy and glassed them back together to make this;

http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/us..._Drainpipe.jpg

I pulled out all the foam I could reach through the holes and was surprised to find it was damp, but neither was it saturated or did it smell of gas. One of #226’s prior owners had overlain the lazyrat floor with glass years ago, and while the poured resin had not held, the glass apparently had done a pretty good job of protecting the floor.

I then foamed the new pipe in place, and when the foam hardened I chipped it out for an inch or so on the top and the bottom around the pipe. I laid thickened epoxy into this void, to secure the new pipe.
http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/us...ulout_0028.JPG
I will let you know how it works.

I have a plug for the well, and plan to use it on corssings. The drain opens into the cut out for the plug, but of course would not seal it.

I purchased one of these;
http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/p...1_front200.jpg

To cap off the top of the drain when the plug is in place.... it is mild steel, but with some grease it should work ok for it's purpose.

I know I wrote up and posted my last lazy rat repair some time in 2oo3...? It appears to have been lost.

Not all together a bad thing.

Some time in 03/04 I noticed the prior owner had done some type of repair to the lazy-rat. I went over what he did, and added to it. painted and called it good.

But over time a persistent problem has shown it's self.

When sailing in heavy seas, or motoring hard... I would find a trickle of water on the sole.

Today, while exploring I decided to tear into the flange where the outboard goes. It has been sealed well on the sides, I will smooth that and fair it out with thickened epoxy.

The front has a but of a low spot, and jamming a screw driver in there over and over brought up bits of the foam that the Pearson Brothers put in there.

I am not too interested in removing the floor of the lazy-rat. I am going to grind everything down and seal the corners with proper filers of epoxy... then probably overlay those edges with mat.

THe area behind the well, is hard to get to.... I played with it a bunch tonight. I actually found some of the grey fairing filler in there. Not sure if water got in in behind it... but I will route that all out. and try to fair thicked epoxy into the grove. I have actually considered using marinefiller to completely fill this void up to the edge of the well.

Thinking of doing likewise to the sides, they seem to hold water... I would rather they drain to the drain pipe.

Have any of you ever done a really good re-work of this without going the whole way and removing the floor of the lazy rat?

litlgull has a rework done of the of the lazy rat deck.

I found water sodden urethane foam in there that stank of gasoline..

Can't remember what condition the BULKHEAD was in.
Assume that it had a layer of polyester and mat or cloth on it - because I don't remember any rot.
Found this bulkhead to be the worst fitted of all the Pearson bulkheads in the boat.
The tabbing inside under the cockpit hid huge gaps in the plywood at the hull that had roving stuffed in still waiting to be wetout!


It would seem possible, if you wanted to do surgery
- after you grinded everything down -
to cut the deck out using a mutimaster type tool.
CUT IT OUT LEAVING A 1 1/2" LEDGE ALL ROUND.
to which you glue the new ply deck to.

You'd have a lot of fun scooping out 45 year old foam and what ever else has collected in there.
Assume the foam is compromised.
Get to see what going on down in the corners.
Fit the new top, GLUE IT IN,
drill some holesaw holes for pouring in 2-part foam and some vent holes in far corners. Screw lids wrapped in seran wrap on over the big holes as fast as you can!
Watch the foam exit the little holes.
Then seal the new deck with glass and tabbing.

It would be very strong and last another 45 years.


Could make any upgrades, maybe beef up the OB motor mount and glass the hell out of it too.
Maybe make adjustments if using a contemporary 4stroke.
So much fun.:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by c_amos

THe area behind the well, is hard to get to.... I played with it a bunch tonight. I actually found some of the grey fairing filler in there. Not sure if water got in in behind it... but I will route that all out. and try to fair thicked epoxy into the grove. I have actually considered using marinefiller to completely fill this void up to the edge of the well.

Thinking of doing likewise to the sides, they seem to hold water... I would rather they drain to the drain pipe.

---

That area behind the collar is a pain to work on and your idea of filling it in has my vote. How about fill the sides and back with foam, shave and sand it down to the level you like, then glass over it?

And I have to agree with Ebb 100% regarding the bulkhead that separates the lazer..laterzz... the lazy rat from the spcae below the cockpit. There were BIG gaps and the layer of fiberglass had a big ol' wrinkle in it resulting in a clear passage for water in the lazy rat to migrate forward. As I recall, that was a very, very 'not so much fun' spot to work in.

Honestly Craig, I can't imagine why your retabb job on all the seams wouldn't work. Many times it seems the best way is to tear it out and do it over, but, if you can do it by hitting just the edges more power to you! Then you'll have more time to sail.

I have pretty much gotten the lazy-rat worked back into shape.

The plate on the forward end on the well (where the outboard clamps on) has a doubled up teak board... one seems to go the height of the well, and the other is a sacrificial board that is screwed on.

The sacrificial bit was pretty well chewed up, I had once sanded it down smooth before and re-attached it. The face of it had some round impressions where the clamps have bit into it in the past.

I am thinking I might like to replace this with a 1/2" block of rubber... it would need to be about 4" x 10" and I would probably secure it with screws in each of the corners.

I like rubber as it would compress and not let the outboard clamps get loose from the vibration... but I can not think where I might buy such an animal.

Any suggestions?

C - I've just undertaken this very project, and I am very happy with the results. (so far!)

I also thought about the rubber... I really liked the rubber idea because it would also dampen some of the o/b engine vibration... (A vibration isolator / dampener! -how great would that be!) But fastening an actual rubber isolator-type assembly to the transom implies a much more elaborate project than I wanted at this point...

I spent quite some time pondering this issue. And I finally gave-up on the rubber isolator... They way the actual transom was shaped -wide at the base with a slight taper towards the top - was what I considered a safety issue since this would make the clamps LOOSER as they came UP on the transom... This always bothered me, but it neve really became an issue, although my O/b did loosen-up a couple of times...

I've proceeded as follows:
- I'll try to get some pictures soon. (it might be a while since I'm traveling!).
I actually completed this about 3 moths ago - except for the colored gel coat to finish. This will make it look like a factory job... I just wanted to put a few miles on the system before I called it good and put the finishing touches on...

BTW - Within this little project I've taken care of the swiveling /dancing engine issue (due to the weak friction design in our motors). I've incorporated a quick release mechanism too. Quite a simple and cheap solution...

During the restoration work, we built-up the transom area and made it quite sturdy. We removed some of the wood and some brackets that actually 'fixed' the motor in place during previous ownership. Not really thinking much more about the requirements for this area (my bad!) we ended-up not providing the best set-up for the outboard.

It worked fine, but when I went to install the O/B for the first time, it became apparent that it could be improved. Actually, I was lucky that the O/B jaws just BARELY opened wide enough to clamp on the transom - we'd beef'd it up a bit much.

So I tore into this area with the goal of providing a mounting surface that actually became THICKER as the motor clamps moved upwards on the transom. SO in case the clamps became loose instead of slipping off easily - the clamps would find grip again... and so on / so forth as the motor proceeded upwards. I went down to the original structure and once here, I started to build up the desired profile using a thick mess of penut buttery resin with lots of chopped strand.

Since the fiberglass is a bit slippery for the OB clamps (for my taste), this time I wanted a nice strong piece of stainless textured plate - just to provide a bit more grip. I installed this textured plate in a bed of the same material and then I build up a bit of additional reinforcement around it.

I used a beefy 12 gauge 316 Stainless steel plate - this stuff was stiff and HARD! Hard to work with...
I wanted textured plate for more friction on the clamps AND for more of a mechanical bond to the fiberglass... - but as it turns out 316 plate is only available smooth (satin finish), brushed, or shiny. I ordered the satin finish and proceeded to texture it myself - abraded & grooved in the back for adhesion, and abraded for friction on the outside.

Coincidentally, at this time I was helping to design and weld some serius steel artwork. This gave me access to some pretty neat tools... I probably worked some of these tools close to spec, (I know the bender was stuggling) but I ended up with a nice result.

I bent the plate into the desired shape, and put a number of holes and made a series of tabs onto the edges in order to provide aditional mechanical resistance to movement within its fiberglass bed. The plate goes from below the drain hole IN the lazarette, up and over, and down into the well past the drain hole once again. So it covers a nice wide area. I embedded it so that it does not interfere with the insertion of the O/B plug.

I am very happy with the way the outboard clamps down on the stainless plate. There will be no slipping there - and the thick stainless provides a great bearing surface as well as a bit of strength. I use a bit of rubber as a liner and this helps with vibration a bit.

Sorry for the ramble; 1 pic = 1,000 words, eh?
I'll clean this up when I have the pic. I hope this makes sense in the meantime.
I do like the results...

Sounds quite sporty. Looking forward (along with the rest of the free world) to pictures... no rush... we are all just holding our breath. ;)

Antonio,
Think I can follow your solutions for the OB vibration problem with the CLAMP.
Not entirely.
Wouldn't a piece of rubber foam placed on top of the mounting board under the OB clamp
take some of the vibration away?
Also, if you have the room, foam on the inner face of the clamp might also be useful.

Can see the reverse wedge shape of the mount as a good idea.
In rebuilding the well in lit'lgull I also ended up with barely enough room to get the OB clamps to slip on.
No room for an added piece of stainless,

An idea for helping to keep the OB clamps in place would be to dap in seats for the clamp faces.
IE make shallow cups in the board with a Forstner bit that the clamp swivel faces go into when tightening the clamps.
Depth of the cutouts are a judgement call.
Could be something like 1/4" deep and could have a sized s.s. washer glued in to take the pressure of the clamps.

McMasterCarr has some EPDM foam rubber sheet and adhesive strip that comes 1/8" TO 1/2" thickness. Page 3523 online catalog. For this ap you probably want the 'firm' grade.
Has textured skin pattern on both sides. Rather more like mat than weather strip. Would take some abuse, imco.

OK, I am going to try and "shame" you guys into providing more photos ;)

I started working on mine awhile ago but it has been a slow process. A PO had cut the lip off and screwed plywood down but since I was able to get a new cover I decided to make a new lip. This of course has been a challenge and my first attempt at remoulding one failed miserably. So then I made one out of ply and am covering with epoxy. At the same time the floor of the lazz and motor well had to be redone because of the leaky damaged shape it was in. Since the work was going to be extensive anyway I decided to take it a step further and deepen the well by a couple of inches to accommodate today's larger engines.

So now for the pictures

The way it looked originally;

Attachment 7025

Framing for the opening;

Attachment 7026

New Lazz lip;

Attachment 7027

Of course this is all taking longer than I hoped because of a large bad epoxy batch and this little distraction that came into my life;

Attachment 7028

1978 Cape Dory Typhoon :D

Tim,

That is great. What kind of 'big ole' outboard are you planning to put in there?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ebb

....An idea for helping to keep the OB clamps in place would be to dap in seats for the clamp faces.
IE make shallow cups in the board that the clamp swivel faces go into when tightening the clamps......

---

I went with this, thanks Ebb! I put in another 'sacrificial' board, with shallow (1/4?) circles to accept the pads.
I will let you know how this works out.

Well my choices right now are a Honda 5hp or an Evinrude 6.5, but I hoping it will be large enough to house a Yamaha with shift controls on the stick, 8 or 9.9hp. I know I don't need the hp but would really like the 2 cyl. for smoothness

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tim D.

Well my choices right now are a Honda 5hp or an Evinrude 6.5, but I hoping it will be large enough to house a Yamaha with shift controls on the stick, 8 or 9.9hp. I know I don't need the hp but would really like the 2 cyl. for smoothness

---

Sure would be nice if someone made a 2 cyl 4 stroke that did not weigh a ton. I also like a 2 stroke, and am not a fan of the vibration from the single cyl Nissan / Tohatsu / Mercury that I have.

Hope this goes well for you Tim, and that you don't need hernia surgery if you go with the Yamaha or Honda 4stroke...


================================================== ============

Ebb,

The sacrificial plate (just resin impregnated ply wood) with recessed cups worked out quite nicely!

You sir, are a geneus! Now, to get you to being a 'cruising genus'.... when we gonna see that? Soon I hope!

OK
Craig, genius is practical intuition, isn't it?
You and Antonio came up with the actual sacrificial plate - which can have several forms.
The real genius is how the idea works and how adaptable it is.

A sacrificial plate that doesn't alter the original mount allows any OB to be mounted in the well
because the plate is customed to the motor. That's genius.

The 'U' shaped sister plate is very provocative:

Is it possible for a 'U' form plate to be attached to the motor? To the motor's clamp bracket?
That might allow the clamp mechanism to easily slip down over the clamping board.
Maybe placement of the OB on the board won't be hit or miss to register the clamping cups?
IE, the motor could be positioned precisely every time just by letting it 'fall' into place. And then twirl the clamps tight.
Wouldn't need to be micro adjusted -lifted and moved - and again! !#%$#*+!


My 8Hp 4X4 Yamaha wieghs over 100Lbs. Made the opening in the well so tight the motor has to be twisted to get the propeller through. There's genius for you!
Going to have to rig a Garhauer davit to put the damn OB in place. And to lift it out. Have to run sweet water through the motor, right?
(Like varnishing) that's rediculous.
The Yamaha clamps in lit'lgull are right at 'deck' level, they can't be twirled.:)

A 60Lb 2 stroke is the only way to go. That'll take 50Lbs OFF the stern. That's smart!
Yamaha says they clean.