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Commander 147
Well I finally did it. I flew to Vermont on Friday and on Saturday I bought commander # 147. :D:D
She will be trucked to Florida in the next couple of weeks and then put on a trailer that we are building for her and brought to my home where I can do the stuff that is necessary to put her back into commission. While the "need to" list is relatively short, the "want to" list is very long and I will spend my summers (off season here in Florida thanks to summer thunderstorms) rebuilding this boat stem to stern. I can't wait to get started. :D:)
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Congrats! Even at its worst (scrape-sand-fill-scrape-sand-fill-sc......)it is wonderful fun!
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WAAAA-HOOOOO!!!! CONGRATS!!
Pictures, pictures, pictures!
...and you'll have to change your screen name :D
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Willbe?! Is! Congratulations to you. But I can't see a thing that needs to be done from that photo-other than relocating.
You can start with photos of the trailer. Just keep them coming, I'm sure we'll let you know when to stop.:D Realize, however, no one has reached that point yet.
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It looks Beautiful! Let us know the details of your to-do list... (I'm curious!)
She might be the closest sibling to C-155... (??)
What is her name?
Interesting aft winch bases... Would you mind shooting a picture for me?
Congratulations and welcome to the board!
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Thanks all...
Lucky Dawg
As you can see Bill is right on top of things here, my screen name is now more appropriate. :)
Rico
I am more than happy to shoot any pictures you or anyone else would like. The boat is still in Vermont and per a conversation with the yacht transport company today they will likely pick up the boat either tomorrow afternoon or Thursday morning and head to Florida with her. I will probably see her next on Monday or Tuesday.
The company building the trailer is in Georgia and I'm hoping to be able to pick up the trailer this weekend so I can put the boat straight on the trailer and bring her back to my house so I can get started working on her.
Her name currently is Daydream. That may change down the road but for now I need to get to know her better before I change it.
The aft winch bases I'm told have been on the boat for 20 years or more. The previous owner had the boat for 17 years and they were installed by the owner prior to him. They are nice when you are single handing the boat because they are closer to get to. Here is a shot I got from the prior owner showing them a bit closer up.
BTW Rico do you still have that pivoting mast base you offered for sale? I may be interested in buying it.
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Like others:
A hearty Congratulations is in order. I remember seeing her when she was listed for sale. I had emailed the previous owner who answered all my questions. I never did persue her for a couple of reasons but....from the answers I got, as well as the photos provided, it appeared she (your Commander, currently know as "Day Dream") was in excellent shape and ready to be enjoyed.
If it were me, I'd think about enjoying her for the summer, then start attacking your "want to" and "desire" list. You may find that the priorities change as you and her develop a bond and you get to know her more.
Enjoy and keep the photos coming. It help us, especially me, out and keeps many motiviated.
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Thanks Chance...
I intend to sail her as soon as possible. And she is not my first boat and I truely understand the bond between a boat and her owner. There are however some things I must to because the boat is not splash ready the way she is now.
First the previous owner was bringing the boat to a marina he normally did not go to, to have the boat hauled last fall. He hit a rock with the keel and caused some damage that I need to repair. I have included a picture of the damage below. And while I'm repairing that I'm also going to address the minor blistering that I believe was caused by a barrier coat that was applied that sealed water in the keel instead of sealing it out. Then I will strip the bottom and redo the barrier coat and apply bottom paint that is appropriate for my area.
When I complete that I need to stop the wet core in the deck from getting any wetter and try to recover from what has already occured. The chain plates have been leaking for some time and there is already some spongy deck in a small area on the port side. There is also a wet core near the bow in the area I circled in the second picture in red. That area also has a small spongy area. That area sustained damage in a storm and that is why you see the small disks under the pulpit bases. It was a cover up repair.
And last but not least the lake I plan to put the boat in initially does not have a lift so I need a mast raising system that does not require a crane. I know what I want to do but I need to get it done. As part of that setup I want to replace the wood that is currently under the mast with the aluminum base.
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I completely understand
Hello,
I can truely understand your motivation and determination to fix the criticals and get it "right". Thanks for the photos, nicely done. I have no Idea how you drew lines, arrows and circles one the one photo, but sense your very computer savvy too.
That PO's redevous with a submerged rock must have been a real nightmare. I would definately call that "hard" aground, although perhaps not stuck.
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What was the appeal of this boat over the Commander that was for sale in Jax. FL ?
Are you getting your trailer from Sail Trailers in Col. GA? Those area couple of great folks, small boat sailors. They may have some insight into a mast raising system. When I mentioned launching an Ariel from a trailer to them and said I was skeptical They seemed to think it was no big deal.
It's a very good time of year to move a boat south.. Good Luck
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Carl
The boat in Jacksonville was significantly worse off compared to this boat. And I did not pay any more for this one than I would have had to pay for that one. Yes I had to ship it down here but it would have cost me a lot more to bring the Jacksonville boat up to the same level of repair than the shipping cost me for this one.
Yes the trailer is coming from Sail Trailer in GA. I have dealt with Spence there and so far so good. I'll let you know more when I get the boat on the trailer and see how everything looks. I did talk to Spence about a mast raising system and I decided to go another way. I will post pics of my mast raising method when I have it set up.
I actually got a pretty good price to move the boat down here because so many boats are going north now. Hope all goes well and I see her in good shape on Monday.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Commander 147
I did talk to Spence about a mast raising system and I decided to go another way. I will post pics of my mast raising method when I have it set up..
Did you see post #15 in the Mephisto Cat thread for a tabernacle option?
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...ead.php?t=1552
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I did see Rico's work and I was impressed. I already have the info on the hinged mast base thanks to Rico so I can buy one (Rico has sold the one he had) and plan to do an aluminum base similar to the one he did. I am very impressed with many of the things he has done to Mephisto Cat and hope I can do as well with my commander.
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She looks beautiful!!!
Happy, Happy boat day!
Looks like you got a real beauty there. I love the picture with the PO sailing her ( I know its hard to see her look so happy with another man... but she's all yours now).
Good luck with the transport and trailer fitting, I hope it all goes smoothly.
Keep us posted.
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Brought her home today...
The yacht transfer company delivered my commander to me today. We got her put on the trailer which included a few small issues that we needed to solve and she is in my back yard tonight. Next I need to construct the new boat house so I have a place to work on her.
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FINALLY...Destiny is moved into her new boathouse
I've decided to call commander 147 "Destiny". In 1977 I decided to move to Florida from Wisconsin. One of my goals for the move was to get involved with sailing and learn to sail. Not very long after I got down here I bought a 16' daysailer and I taught myself how to sail. I feel like everything from that time until now has been prepairing me for this time and this boat. So "Destiny" seems to fit.
Tonight I finally got the new boat house to the point where I could move her in and start in earnest on her repairs and upgrades. Here are a few photos showing the construction of her new home when she is not in the water. In the first picture you can see where the previous boat house was (just to the right of to Destiny) that I dissasembled and salvaged all of the parts for in the construction of the new boat house.
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Mmmmmm.... boat shed. Fantastic! :p
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Reason for C147's weeping keel revealed...
As we discussed in the keel voids thread C147 has had a weeping keel. It now appears that the reason is due to a bad bottom job previously by the boatyard up in Vermont where she was kept for the last 15 years.
We previously thought it was due to water in the foam inside the keel freezing and thawing and crazing the gelcoat to the point where it was no longer a barrier for water. And while I still believe that is part of the problem I think a bigger part is what looks like an over zealous sandblasting job on the keel. Significant amounts of the gelcoat have been blasted away and then a filler was spread over it to try and correct it. This allowed water inside that has totally saturated the foam inside. Take a look at the picture and you can see as I sand down through the filler what I'm finding underneath it. Note also the water seeping out through the keel in the area where I have not yet removed all the foam inside (the dark spots on the pink filler).
My plan currently is to finish sanding the outside of the keel and finish removing all the water saturated foam inside. This will allow everything to dry out while I work on other projects. There are probably many differant ways to repair this hull an I'm sure I do not know them all. I am interested in gathering information to make a decision on the best way to proceed.
Any advice or recommendations are welcome.
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With my limited knowledge of the "Fantastic Plastic", I don't think the gelcoat is the moisture barrier for the fiberglass. What are you finding inside when removing the foam? As related to the hull laminate. I would think the hull laminate has been compromised and will require cloth and reglassing on both sides if possible.
I am sure a more experienced response is forthcoming.
A sandblaster is a harsh way to remove paint/gelcoat from fiberglass.
Good Luck.
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A rare peek inside the keel of a commander...
I'm making progress pulling all of the water logged foam out of the keel. You can see it is still plenty wet in there. That foam does not give up the water easy either. The water stays in the foam and does not drain out.
In the first picture you can see the aft end of the lead ballast starting to peek out of the foam.
The second picture is aft of the first and I circled where the rudder shoe is. Seems they liked to throw trash inside the keel before they they poured in the foam. I dug out small chunks of wood and you can see a piece of broken fiberglass in both pictures.
The third picture is looking even further back.
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My boat is a bit differant from the design drawing...
The lead ballast does not go as far back in my commander as the design drawing from the old brochure.
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nice work here
Looking very good, Some thing you may want to try once you clean this area up is, at night I would place a very bright light Quartz work light inside the keel and go to the outside of the boat and see if you can identify the leaking areas and mark with a pencil where the filling is required, this may also Identify where you may have some freeze expansion damage.
If you view Ebb's work done in the keel / bilge area , the gussets or bridging he did from one side of the hull to the other in this area really looks like it adds a great deal of strength.
That can't be pleasant work but you've made great progress:)
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Your thoughts are very similar to mine...
As a matter of fact two days ago I was looking through Ebb's gallery to look again at the keel area work he did. I want to add a brace or bulkhead or what ever the correct term for it would be just in front of the rudder shoe since this is a lifting point and it needs to be strong. I thought I would pack some thickened epoxy with glass fibers down in the bottom of the keel to bury the area where the rudder shoe attaches and make sure it can never leak there. Then add the brace. I also think I will slope the glass that encloses the keel down into this area so everything drains down to this low point. Then I will run the suction hose for the bildge pump down there.
I like your idea of the light to locate possible leaks. I will have to try that. I can see light through the keel in the areas where they blasted through the gelcoat already.
You're right it is not pleasant work. I work a couple hours each night and come out soaking wet with sweat. The temperature here in Florida has been running over 80 degrees at 8:00PM and over 90 degrees at 5:00PM. Hard work for a guy that spends his days in an office on the phone but well worth it in the end.
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For those of you that are not a crazy as me...
If you are not crazy enough to take on digging out the wet foam in the keel you will not see what I found so I though I would show you.
I thought you would like to see how easy water can come into your hull from the strap on the rudder. The first picture shows the two screwdrivers I stuck through the bolt holes for the strap in the middle of the rudder.
The second picture is the shafts of those screwdrivers inside the hull. There is no reinforcement inside the hull at that area and the only thing stopping water from leaking into the boat is whatever sealant you have there. It might be a good idea to drill those holes larger, pack them full of thickend epoxy and then redrill them the correct size so you have something other than sealant keeping water out.
For me I'm going to built up an area in there with fiberglass to strengthen and seal it so it will never leak there again.
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nice screwdrivers
nice screwdrivers!:D:D:D.
Must say , that is startling, you're boat must have this leakage problem since day one.
You are definitely moving forward in making your bilge dry
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Good to know about that rudder strap! How about the shoe area though, is it the same? Or is the bottom thick enough that they're inside the glass? (I read someone's post on the shoe, but can't remember more than basic details.)
Would seem to answer why the foam is waterlogged in so many of these boats.
My boat isn't in the water yet, so I think I'll check that out, and take your advice on overbore/filling the holes.
Ken.
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Hey Kendall, you're scaring me!
No over-bore down there!
It's just fiberglass, what there is of it, NO CORE.
My fix:
Scrape the cavity with carbide scrapers (Bacho) Remove any loose stuff.
Make paper patterns (Really!) of the port side and the starboard side (obviously they are flipflops)
Allow ONLY one 90 degree turn into the ends and on the bottom. NO U TURNS, they get out of control.
Cut XMATT so that each panel you put in laps only over the other side's panel in the end and the bottom of the keel.
Xmatt is stiff enough initially so that after you have cut it to the paper pattern size you can FIT it into the cavity AND take it out again. You will want to remove darts of material where it wants to bunch. I would put in at least 2 layers of 24oz. What you are doing is also a dry run. Epoxy has a short open time after mix. In the cup it is way shorter than when spread thin. Epoxy when it's cool.
Lay out some plastic film, lay the cut-to-fit Xmatt on it and wet it out with 2part epoxy. Drape it into place in the keel which has also been wet out (IMPORTANT, make sure you are putting wet material on a wet surface. Only way you can get a mate, with no holidays.) Unlike woven fiberglass, you CAN reposition Xmatt, just not too many times befor it starts falling apart.
Use a throw-away brush to poke the Xmatt into the corners. I go so far as to sharpie pen hash marks where the turns are to be on the fabric. It makes positioning easier when it is wet. If you feel you can put the second layer on top of the first wet layer, go for it. Otherwise let it stiffen up some, or come back the next day. Next day will no doubt require some prep. I like to alternate one side's lap over the other for the strength it makes. Use the brush to poke the fabric into the epoxy. If you have created a bridge with the fabric over a depression, slice the wet fabric with a utility knife and pat it down. Patch it later if needed, or paste on a piece of scrap.
If the surface is too weird and you know you won't be able to get a solid no holiday layer, you can mix up some epoxy and fumed silica gel to smear over the problem 'cavity' just before the fabric Quickly. Just pat it flat with your latex gloved hand.
After your reinforcing layer(s) are in, then you want to add a bunch of mishmash (2part laminating epoxy - f. silica - 1/4"/1/2" chopped strand fiberglass.) Mix it stiff so you can sculpt it over the area where the gudgeon fastenings go - so the the fastenings are not exposed in the keel cavity. Tab in a piece of Xmatt or fabric over the glob so that it ends up relatively smooth.
Xmatt leaves a rough surface. After it is set you may want to smooth it with the gel mix. A good smoother is the pliable green applicator that seems to be everywhere.....you can spread the mix on really smooth so that there is little work to do after it is set.
After this work is done then you can add a 'garboard' drain plug. Make sure it is bronze.
You now have a nice sump to collect water and to have a bilge pump or two.
I'm in the full access camp for boat maintenance. Foam makes access impossible and creates more problems than it cures. Fit a lid over the area so socks won't get in.
All imco, hope some of this is helpful, sorry if it seems patronizing.:D
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It's impossible to know what has been in and out of the bilge in 45 years. To know what oils and waxes and stuff have been there - ARE STILL THERE.
NO, can't use solvents - out of the question. Scrape, abrade, grind - these are impossible but not lethal. The Fein tool will allow abrading and scraping near to the bottom of the keel. Any solvent will screw up the epoxy or any coating going in there next.
Must use 100% solids NO SOLVENT epoxy - unless you want to die. Do not use West System epoxys here. Some of their epoxies blush and some use formaldehyde in the hardener side (205). Set up ventilation under the cockpit when working there.
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Kendall & Ebb
First Kendall
No the shoe does not appear to have the same issue. At least not on my boat. I looks like they added some extra roving saturated with resin in the area of the shoe. Just the same I am going to build it up more in that area just to make sure I have no future problems.
Ebb
What would be a good way to fix the water intrusion in that area so you don't have to rely on strictly sealant in an underwater location like that? There must be some way other than digging out all the foam like I am.
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I guess there has to be an each individual boat fix, a good enough fix.
Then there's ebb's way.
Water gets in obviously thru the laminate.
Thru stupid everetts like we've just seen with the gudgeon fastenings entering and going thru the interior OPEN SPACE of the keel.:eek::eek::eek:
AND 'intrusion' like all other water that gets in from above.
Water is going to go to the lowest point, no matter what.
Water is the UNIVERSAL SOLVENT. Boaters know that.
There's no film, caulk, sealant, adhesive or FOAM that will keep the water out.
I believe what you are doing is the correct solution. If you have integrity in the laminate in the keel area, great! I might just paint in waterproofing with some super garage floor polyurethane rubber type stuff. The kind that advertise themselves as water blockers. Not over foam.
Adding a layer of 6oz fiberglass to the outside crazed gelcoat is good too. The cloth is added to create thickness for your barrier. Put on in the hollow of the bilge it is easy to make the reinforcement disappear with fillers and fairing.
My gut feeling that if you want strength too, it's better - but MUCH more awkward - to add it inside.
I don't see how a fix can be freehanded with fouled foam in place.
338's heel fitting was attached to crumpled glass and crystallized plastic. Only two pins/bolts were thru something 'solid' - and that solid was pure no glass polyester resin - from the factory! It's a bad place down there to get good lamination - with correct fabric to resin ratio.:rolleyes:
Anybody's Ariel/Commander has to keep this in mind when upgrading. But that's another thread.
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Ebb another question...
I've finished taking out the foam I can get to. What is left is on the sides and under the lead ballast and there is still water in that little bit of foam also. So my plan is to finish my sanding on the outside so the glass can let out moisture that way and burn a 40 watt light bulb inside to get everything dry.
After I get it all dry and build up the bottom of the keel some to further bury the heel fitting bolts I want to add a bulkhead with a cutout in the bottom so water can get back and forth under it starting just in front of the heel fitting to strengthen the keel in that area. When you added these bulkheads were they plywood that you covered in cloth and epoxy or some other material?
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Sounds good!
Those are crispy epoxy/Xmatt tacos. 5 or six layers of Xmatt. Under 1/4"
They are that dark because I was using some very old dark amber hardner.
Easy to make on Mylar sheet*.
Build up the panel with same size Xmatt material wetting out each layer as you stack.
You can jigsaw the 'bulkheads' to fit out of this custom sheet.
Then fill the corners with generous curved fillets, then tab with Xmatt strips to keep it all amalgamated - and also to spread the point load out on the contact surface - because we're not supposed to put hard panels in at 90 degrees to the hull.
Been avoiding the end of the keel issue. If we are getting water in there, and there is no IF, there's water entering there - then the argument might be to let the water out. And let it out easy - on A338 that end of the encapsulated ballast was OPEN.
SO, leave it open!
A338 had no added foam, so the bilge was free to collect water. There was no attempt by Everett to close off the end of the ballast in A338. In reality A338's ballast keel should have been free of water since it runs out to the keel bilge. This was not the case. (Another thread.)
I decided to fill the ballast keel void by injecting epoxy thru holes drilled from outside. I was lucky to remember to close off the open end before I'd gone too far in the epoxy filling. Later the nice straight blkhd was added once the height was established. And that became the end of the cabin sole.
You can buy fiberglass sheet in various thicknesses from McMasterCarr. It's polyester and seems after sanding to glue like a champ. I'm using 1/8". Could make the argument that something this thin would work for these small blkhds if they are filleted and tabbed and - as they do - are incorporated into a horizontal panel.
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*After stacking the 5 or 6 or 7 wet Xmatt pieces, top with mylar film and a very flat panel of some sort. You'll be making a beautiful flat consistent sheet - try to pull the air bubbles out once the second sheet is on top using the green spreader thingy - on TOP of the mylar.
The sheet peels right off once the epoxy is set.
If you build up some weight /pressure on that MDO(?) panel, you'll squeeze more of that expensive epoxy out BUT you'll make an even stronger more dense sheet.:cool:
Left overs can be used as backing 'blocks'.
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Somebody, maybe the factory, since they seem to have done (and didn't do) so many different things back there in the keel on Commanders and Ariels... somebody filled the very back narrow deep end and the bottom in A338 making a sort of ramp, actually a ramp, so that water collecting in the bilge ends up forward at the back of the ballast keel. In the Ariel it's just about perfect as the sump is under the bridge but accessible. If an inboard was there the bilge water would still be accessible, sort of, and in the lowest part of the vessel. Way to go.
This shows you can create a collecting point whereever you want. The filler seemed rock hard to me so I assumed the mass was made of mat and roving left-overs and resin. It also had the effect of adding some beef to the bottom of the keel and the rudder shoe area.
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Thanks Ebb
I really want to do right by this commander and I have not done a project like this before. So your help is very much appreciated.
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I'm in the same position as you are.
It's just that I've been at it longer, longer, longer.
In the beginning and through the decades I've bought many books on every boat subject. I like books.
Very few concerning the actual work with products have been useful.
Which is natural enough since the reader has to supply his own experience.
There are standouts. But generally books are general.
Have my own brand of timidity to deal with - when it comes to new processes. I work alone on A338. It's my Zen.
Imagine I'm being helpful when I drag on about things Ariel. Trying to be specific.
Wished many times that somebody had clewed me in to the processes that I hope I'm sharing. Experience is public, we are compelled to trade info.
Hope everybody SHARES their experiences and observations and revelations - whatever they are,
Have been told by Admiral Bill that Ebb can be difficult to understand.
It's shop talk converted into language. It would be much better and simpler to see processes.
BUT, thinking that youTube videos are the answer, many instructional ones I seen seem to be as useless as printed talk. Whatever the knack is to put forward a TIP, I'll keep trying until the ax falls.
Never an expert. Just reformulating experiences.
AND always In My Considered Opinion. B.S. It's just the backboard, you have the ball.
Discussion is the life blood of a Forum. It's back and forth repartee. We have a great community and great boats to talk about. BEST SHOW AND TELL ON THE NET.
Actually we are all in the same Boat.:D
[criminny he does go on and on....]
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Made some progress yesterday...
The Florida heat and humidity were not as oppressive yesterday so I got some things done.
The first picture is a template I had made previously for the fiberglass bulkhead I wanted to stiffen up the keel with. The bulkhead was 2-1/2" wide at the bottom and 6" wide at the top. It was 18" tall. The bulkhead was made from 6 layers of 1708 biax and after it kicked I used my pattern to mark the size and cut it out on the bandsaw.
The second picture is the bulkhead installed with just the fillets.
The third picture is after I tabbed it in. The dark line down the center is a refferance line I drew on the bulkhed with a dry marker to help me line up the biax tabbing when I was putting it in. I left about 1 inch under the bulkhead so water can travel back and forth under it.
The forth picture is what the aft end of the ballast looked like after I had cut the fiberglass out that enclosed the foam the factory installed. You can see at the point where I stopped cutting out old glass that there is about 1-1/2" of foam between the glass and the lead ballast. I had to transision down from there to the top of the lead so I made a pattern of the area and marked and cut out the biax to the shape I needed. then I wet out a portion of the biax in the area where it needed to make that transision and let it cure on the bench. Then when I installed the glass in the boat this created a ramp down from the higher level to the top of the lead.
You can see the glass installed in the fifth picture. Following Ebb's advice I left the very end of the lead ballast open so any water getting into the keel forward of that point would have an escape route to the bilge.
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Bulkheads look great!
I am wondering what function these bulkheads serve? Does the hull need reinforcement along the bilge?? I am in a good position to install similar on Arthur...just need to know why:confused:!
Thanks for some collective wisdom.
Andrew
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Andrew
What I am starting to learn is that no two Ariels or Commanders are exactly alike. For example my commander had the foam aft of the ballast and fiberglassed over. Commander 227 tells me his had neither. His was wide open. And in just the few commanders I have personally seen all had some differances in how they were built. All similar but all differant.
When I took all the foam out of my keel the fiberglass on the sides was in my personnal opinion very thin. the sides would flex very easily. Which they did as I scraped off the foam that stuck to them. And this is one of the lifting points for the boat so just to be on the safe side I decided to strengthen the area with a bulkhead. My personality pushes me to eliminate any potential for failure so I added the bulkhead. Your boat may not it.
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:eek:FLEX??
If you are thin down there, where you should NOT be thin, perhaps laying in some Xmat, or similar, should be done now.
I would lay the cloth along the hull interior up onto the bulkheads so that the hull is tied one side to the other - and made thicker.
Tying the boat together with those small blkhds makes a very STRONG 'I-beam' structure.
Consider doing this where the ballast ends also.
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Ok that makes sense. I have spent a bit of time in the bilge and have not noticed the flex you mention. Prob as you say no two were made alike. My bilge is wide open and the pins for the grundgen go thru solid FRP. Could be a PO removed all the foam?
I agree with the better safe than sorry approach so I'm going to ebb-o-fy with bulkheads too. Cant hurt and looks pretty straightforward.
Andrew
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Ebb and anyone else with thoughts on the matter...
I have to say the added bulkhead makes a hugh differance in the rigidness of the aft end of the keel. But another added bulkhead above the aft end of the main ballast and biax tying that one to the other one I already installed would make the area incredibly strong. I will have to take a serious look at that.
Another issue I have and I don't know if the Boat came out of the mold that way or if the Vermont freeze thaw cycles caused it with the wet foam in the keel. But I have some humps in the port side of the keel in the area where I took all the foam out. I've sanded off the filler the boat yard had put on the keel in that area and it is not a repair or anything like that. It is the original fiberglass that makes the humps. Since this is also the area where the boat yard had sanded through the gelcoat I figured I would finish sanding of the gelcoat in that area so the epoxy would adhear better and fair the hull with some epoxy and microballons then after fairing it out apply the layer of 6oz cloth over the epoxy filler and and finally fair that out before I redid the barrier coat and bottom paint.
Opinions on my plans are welcome.
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onward
Humps.
Since the Commander was originally laid up in a female mold,
the assumption with a whole lot of certainty is that there would
NOT BE ANY FACTORY BUMPS IN THE HULL.
That is bumps that stick out on the hull.
Any bumps would come from a repair.
If you have access to the inside of the boat opposite any bumps on the outside,
you can probably look down at the roving that Pearson put in and see that it is original, or not.
Pearson's work is often competent but funky - and anybody else's repairs of any age will stand out like a sore thumb.
Sitting here in California I can easily say that I would grind ANY humps flat. Carefully. A bump could be some kind of wierd blister. Should find out what the hell the bumps are. And then fair, repair, and lay on the 6oz.
BUT befor you start grinding a bump:
If you look down into the bilge and you are seeing the signature Pearson layup and you are sure there is a bump on the ouitside - this is not possible.
I would use a batten to REALLY MAKE SURE that any bumps are really bumps and not an area that has hollows around an island that is not actually standing out. Hollows are more likely than bumps in a nonrestored hull.
[The 6oz cloth is not going to add thickness or much strength. Most will agree it is the best way to add a thick supported layer of epoxy barrier. The cloth is light and easy to apply. Another layer or two could be considered if you truly have a thin factory lamination in the area. Put the smaller piece on first, the a larger, then the largest over all. Seems backwards but I think fairing will be easier and there are fewer seams.]
The best test for hull soundness is thumping it. If there is a dull thud you have no other choice but grinding down to green fiberglass. You have to grind all white fibers away.
Build back up thin layers so that removal is easy. If you have to.
A couple bendy wood fairing battens for horizontal and vertical testing are good. You can pick out hollows and bumps real easy with these.
A piece of thin, sharp, stiff gauge metal is good for dragging over just applied fairing compound. Slather the compound on, then drag the steel over the surface, bending the metal to conform to the general curve of the hull.
Imco
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OK maybe it is more appropiate to call them low spots...
Because as I taped this 5 foot long metal rule to the hull it looks like the high points should be the fair line of the hull and the low spots make the high points look like humps.
I can tell you with certainty that there is only one spot with a repair to the fiberglass and you can see that spot in the first picture. I am intimate with the inside and outside of the hull in this area after all the time I have spent working on it and the laminate is original and solid. I am the first person to see the inside of the keel since it left the factory full of foam and glassed over.
The starboard side is fine. It has fair lines and looks like it should.
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Regression/shrinkage where there was no filler betwixt hull and ballast, perhaps? Any flexxing thereabouts?
If not, I'd fill it and fair it.
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Onefourseven, suh,
that hull there in the closeups looks choice to me. Looks very healthy. That's the original real stuff.
Gouges or low spots could be caused by an overactive former owner. Or as you show a repair nearby, it may well have been some sort of damage that was grinded out but not repaired from that point properly.
If those low spots (5/16" is ENORMOUS) are near your thin hull areas then imco this is still damage not repaired completely. I think it is excellent you grinded the mess off. Now you know what is there. And what is not there. Might help to lay an 8' batten on the good side to get an idea of what might be missing from the damaged side. Try it back and forth to get an image. Except for the gouging there can't be too much difference because it takes a lot of work with a sander/grinder to remove stuff.
Common lam schedule into a female mold is the sprayed on gel coat, then hand layering of mat, then multi layers of roving. You may be able to read these layers in those gouges. The lamination is supposed to be thickest at the keel gradually getting thinner going to the sheer. Thickness is built up with roving. Areas that needed to be smooth enough for painting by Pearson may have had cloth or mat final interior lams.
If those low spots are thin I might lay in some small pieces of fabric and two part into the depressions. Little ones first then bigger ones like you are closing up an old thru-hull. Fill to the approximate surface with cabosil gel and chopped strand. Then lam on the area pieces of 6oz, if that's what you are doing. Then do your fairing with easier to sand stuff like West System's407 powder that you mix with the same laminating plastic.
Never learned how to formulate my own powder for non-sag on vertical surfaces.
Tape on a piece of mylar film with blue tape to keep the filler flat if it wants to sag. Creates 'surface tension'. Peel it off after set.
[Just occurred to me that this is a trick used with epoxy, don't know if it works with vinylester.]
A longer batten will give you a more complete story of the hull's surface ups and downs. Longer pieces of aluminum bar are nice because of their soft edges.
Remember, these hulls were conceived as the fairest any human eye had ever seen. Each side of the hull is identical.
All of the hull's curves run without impediment into every other curve, right to the keelpost.:D
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Could the weight of all the layers of the laminations during the layup of the hull have caused that side of the keel to pull away or form a "bubble" of sorts before it set up?
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Fair e'nuf
IMHO,
I BELIEVE your keel is about as fair as any to come out of Pearson. Nobody at Pearson ever taped a baton to the keel to see how fair it was, I doubt they even checked the plug for the mold.
I BELIEVE the port side will have little likeness to the starboard if you compare the two. The entire cuddy is over 1 1/2" off center on every one of the 1775 Ensigns they built.
I BELIEVE it doesn't make any difference at all. You could fair it out to perfection and not gain an ounce of boat speed. The keel is not like the finely tuned airfoil on a modern fin keeled boat, more of a blob filled with lead.
I BELIEVE you could drop the weakest hull ever to come out of Pearson in the 60's into the drink from 30,000 feet and not suffer any damage. The only force I've ever seen to do any real damage to a 60's era Pearson hull is water inside the boat freezing (and that includes coming off a trailer at highway speeds) so I question the need to reinforce.
I BELIEVE the work you are doing looks very good and the boat already weighs 5500# so a few extra pounds of glass and resin certainly are not going to hurt anything if it helps you sleep at night.
I BELIEVE that like raising a teenager, you need to pick your battles wisely as not to run out of stream (and money)before the job is done.
THIS I BELIEVE
Mike
C227
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I Also Believe
I ALSO BELIEVE that I would glass up the exposed end of the lead ballast! (It just don't seem right) Maybe add a drain plug.
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I BELIEVE the best part about a forum is...
differing opinions. Without differing opinions we cannot take an honest look at anything and make our own considered decision. So let me say thank-you to you Mike and to Ebb and to anyone else that offers their opinions when I ask a question. Because the more view points that are presented the better the decision I can make.
Mike you make some very valid points. And the fact of the matter is I will most likely run out of boat money before I complete the refit. That is why I am concentrating on labor intensive projects where the material costs are low. This economy has my income way, way down and until it picks up some boat money is going to be scarce.
My personality drives me to make things as perfect as I am capable of doing. If I ignore something that is obviously wrong to me it drives me nuts every time I look at it from then on. So since I was planning to lay the 6oz glass on the lower part of the keel where the gelcoat was sanded through previously anyway I figured I would address the humps in the keel which was the very first thing I noticed when I first inspected the boat. My post was more about asking the correct approach to fair the keel than if I should do it at all. Trust me I'm nuts enough already and don't need a lumpy keel to look at every time the boat is out of the water to drive me further over the edge. :)
As far as glassing in the end of the ballast I had actually cut the biax to do exactly that first and then changed my mind at the last minute. But I may still follow your advice because I believe the foam around the ballast will do more absorbing of water than draining of it. And there is already a plug in the bottom of the keel installed by the previous owner but as he tells it he never got much water out because the foam holds onto the water so well and does not let it drain.
Mike I am VERY impressed with the work you have done on the Princess as I am with Ebb's workmanship. I will follow your lead on many of the things you have done most importantly the electric inboard drive. But my personality is a little differant from yours so I am pushed to do some things a little differant. I can't help myself it is who I am.
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closing it up
Let's just mess around with this here for a moment.
Water, for a number of reasons, mainly because it is the basement of the vessel, will get into the encapsulated ballast keel space - even when the end of the ballast is closed off.
That's not good for a number of reasons. Not only for boats that get pulled and stay on the hard for awhile but also those that stay in the water year round.
Imco you can't close off the ballast keel unless a drain is provided. As you know some have actually installed a simple bronze drain that can be opened when the boat is out of the water.
There could be a good arguement to put that same drain in the bottom of the bilge where you would close off the ballast.
It's a damned awkward place fpr a mechanical drain thingy.
It's also the bottom of the bilge.
Pearson must have seen water captured in the ballast area as a problem and that's why they inelegantly left it open the way they did. I'd agree with them that it's best to keep water out of the bilge and as much as possible out of the laminate.
Foam in place urethane is the same. Water will get in to it. The boats need a sump as deep as the turn of the fiberglass at the bottom to collect water to be pumped out. Water always gets in - need a relatively easy way to get it out.
A dusty bilge will help keep the boat smelling sweet.
Some have filled the space around the encapsulated ballast with two part plastic. Expensive, but it seems to solve that problem. There are some other reasons besides water being stuck in the cavity that imco filling the space is a good thing. Main reason is that adding plastic in there structurally benefits the keel.
Some of our Ariels and Commanders seem to be pretty thin of hull.:eek:
The whole weight of the boat sits on it's laminate when on the hard. And it sits right where the ballast is. The ballast does NOT form fit the space it sits in. The only thing that keeps the ballast from shifting is the tabbing across the top! Imco filling the space around the ballast creates a more solid base where all two and a half tons plus are concentrated when in the jacks. That's my arguement.
Painting a barrier coat on the bottom is not strictly necessary for our A/C's.
But it could lead ultimately to a drier boat. If you do go that route then imco the space around the ballast should be filled.
IMCO
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WAY LATER EDIT: I'm sure it has occured to some owners, but there is an important safety issue on whether the lead ballast needs to be
filled/injected with 2-part plastic...or not. If you accidentally get a leak by grinding a hole or cracking the hull in the area of 'encapsulated' ballast that is open to the sump where your pumps are....you have no way of stopping that water from coming in.
A338 also had a large 'hollow' in the turn of the bottom the keel, I mean under the boat where the ballast is, that had been filled with a bondo like substance. It was fairly easy to dig it out - it was not covered over with fiberglass. It was a Pearson created booboo.
Fixed it with epoxy & biaxial matt.
However a flaw is a flaw is a weak area. When on the hard the whole weight of the boat is balanced on this turn of the bilge. This probably led my thinking to epoxy/lead composite...and subsequently over-building the bilge....
C147 showed the same Pearson anomaly. I'm absolutely sure these were considered cosmetic repairs at the factory. They filled in these caves and delivered them to the dealer painted over. It's pretty obvious that the poor souls laminating the hull with live polyester had some concentration lapses pushing wet roving into deep reaches of the bilge. How many other hulls have these flaws?
If you are not filling in the encapsulation void with liquid plastic, then make damn sure the ballast chamber is completely isolated from the interior of the boat.
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Commander 147,
Looks pretty spiffy, even if maybe not required. I like the idea of an onboard bomb shelter... especially when it only costs a couple bucks and a few pounds. :D
FWIW, I personally do not think there is much of a need for this but to each their own... so long as we all adhear to the adage 'at least do no harm' :D
Thanks for taking the pictures and sharing your work. ;)
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Well it's been a while so I thought I would post an update.
The economy is taking it's toll on me but I'm still able to squeeze out some money here and there for the boat. Until recently the weather outside was so hot and humid that I spent time working in the wood shop which I could cool until the weather finally cooled down outside.
All the wood topsides will be new in this stage of the restoration. And I have most of the pieces fabricated to the point where final fitting, sanding and finishing remains. The new coaming boards are cut and fit but I want to inlay a reinforcement where they tend to crack at the inside corners where the board goes from the deck down into the cockpit itself. They are currently buried in my woodshed and I have not yet taken a picture of them so I will post that later when I install them.
The two pieces that transition from the coaming board to the cabin sides are made with the exception of the top cut. I want to fit them with the coaming board to make sure I am cutting them off on top exactly where they need to be cut. You can see the current stage of the parts in photo #1 below
Picture #2 below is the new companionway sill.
Picture #3 below is the are the boards that the companionway drop boards lock into.
Picture #4 below is the new handrails I've made which are thicker and slightly taller than the old ones.
And since I can only post 5 pictures per post I will start another post to show you what I have been doing on the boat since the weather cooled down. But I will need to post that later since I have Christmas decorating to do today.
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Some of the recent progress on the glasswork
First some time ago I decided to glass in the end of the ballast like Mike (Commander 227) suggested. My reasoning went like this. Unlike a boat that has no foam around the lead ballast that can drain easily to the empty back end of the keel, Destiny has foam all around the ballast and this foam sucks up water and dosen't let go of it. So I thought it better to try and keep water out of that foam by sealing the ballast in fiberglass. If water does get in that area what ever will drain out can go out the plug the prior owner had installed in the bottom of the keel when I pull the boat at the end of season. The first picture is of that job.
Next like most commanders the reinforcement for the backstay chainplate was very short. It left the top 8 inches of the chainplate unsupported. So I cut out and glassed in a new reinforcement for it to bolt to. The new one allows me to cut in half the unsupported distance of the chainplate. Also It is twice as thick as the old one. The second picture shows the old reinforcement.
The third picture is of the new reinforcement.
The 4th picture is of the glassed in new reinforcement showing the added bolt 4" higher than was previously possible. It also shows a couple of backer plates I glassed in for the hinges on the lazarette hatch. I glassed in several backer plates in this area but since I'm out of pictures again I will show you all those at a later date.
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A Commander mast step drawing
for those that wish to use a pivoting mast base. I just drew a cleaner version of the one Rico used to have his step made from. I left out the groove that is needed for the old style mast base where a crain is needed to step the mast.
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How many of you have a suprise like this hiding under your stem head fitting?
The first picture below is the surprise I found when I removed the stem head fitting. This boat had more leaks than a colander.
The second picture is a trapazoid I made out of 3/8" thick fiberglass panel that I glued in place with some epoxy last night. Tonight I cut some biaxial mat and glassed it in place (3rd. picture). The biax will not only hold the plug in place but it also locks the deck and the hull together better than it has ever been in that area. Tomorrow night I will cover the existing hole in the front of the bow with some mylar and tape and then drill a hole in the top of the deck where the stem head fitting will later cover it up. Then I will mix up some epoxy with micro fibers to strengthen it and pour it into the the area closed off by the plug I installed.
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Nice!
Will you be able to line up the long bolt?
A338 has one long bolt that essentially makes the stemfitting impossible to be torn off (without taking the whole nose with it. )
Could say the stemfitting does a secondary job clamping stem to deck together.
Also has the two lower bolts that only go thru the stem.
Our stem fitting is a great design!
The plug/bulkhead you have there imco could be tabbed to the hull to insure the upgrade does as you say: hold everything together better.
Bet you had a great time working up in there!!!!!
Really enjoy your photos and work!:D
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Yea, imagine wiggling up into the inside point of a cone...
and you will get a feel for what it was like working up there in the point of the bow. I can't wait to start on the recore. I will actually for the first time be able to stand in an upright position to do the job at hand. :)
Ebb the first pictures may not have been easy to see but I did glass the trapazoid to the deck and the hull. The first picture below is the templates I used to cut the biax that I used. The Y shaped one went in first and the top dark brown part is on the bottom of the deck, the middle light brown part is attached to the trapazoid plug and the bottom darker brown part is attached to the hull where the bolts for the stem head go through. The smaller template was for the second piece of biax that tied the plug to the sides of the hull.
The second picture below shows the long bolt in place so you can get an idea of how it all fits together.
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Glued up the first of two tillers tonight...
Both of the tillers that came my commander were replacements and neither one worked very well. One was only about 4" longer than the original but instead of a slight rise it had a drop in it and it was a knee knocker. The other while it had a similar rise to the origianl it was about 12" too long. It took up a lot of cockpit space to use it. So tonight I cut up one of the old combing boards and resawed it into strips 5/16" thick. I built a jig to match the profile in the manual and glued the first one up. I figure it can't hurt to have a spare so I'm going to make two while I'm doing it.
If anyone wants the jig when I'm done with it and is willing to pay the UPS to get it let me know and it's yours.
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You know sometimes I act like a rank amateur
Just blissfully blundering along like I have never built anything before confident what I'm doing is going to turn out just right.......NOT.....
I know better than to build a jig and do a glue up before testing my template to verify it's really what I want. But did I do that?????? NO
So tonight after work I removed the glue up from the jig (first picture below) and was getting ready to surface the two faces so I could lay the template on it and mark the layout for the bandsaw, I all of a sudden realize I never bolted the template into the rudder head to make sure I was going to be happy with the final result. When I did my heart sunk..... I was sure after looking at the two tillers that came with my commander and looking at the layout of the original in the manual that I would be happy with the original. And that is why I blissfully proceeded without doing what I would normally do and test every step along the way to make sure I liked the direction I was going. But when I bolted it in I realized it was not going to end up at a comfortable height for me and I was going to have to go back to square one. :(
The second picture below is the two tiller templates bolted into the tiller head. The higher one is the one based on the manual and the lower one is the one I'm going to start making now.
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practice
A master woodworker, famous for his furniture, once said to me:
It's all how you go from one mistake to your next mistake.
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Thanks Ebb
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Don't forget to account for some flatting out of the tiller's curves when you take it out of the form.
All the work you've done on your boat is first class.
Ben
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Thanks Ben
From what you have shown us so far I expect the same from you. With these 45 year old boats we get plenty of opportunity to prove ourselves don't we?
BTW when I released the tiller glue up I only got about 1/8" spring back which surprised me. I expected more.
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If at first you don't succeed.....
Well, after playing with several incarnations of the tiller template this is the one I finally settled on. I am 5'11" tall and when I sit on the cockpit seat with a cushion the top of my knee is at 23" above the cockpit floor. I wanted the tiller to clear the top of my knee by a comfortable margin so the bottom of this template is 24-1/2" above the cockpit floor. The original one I made is behind the one I will now need to build. Because I am making a tighter curve I will need to make the strips I glue up thinner to take the curve. So that means I will need to make one or two more strips. That's a project for tomorrow.
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It's a Carpentiller... finally...
We have had the coldest winters I have experienced in Florida and I have lived here since 1977. But we finally got a 70 degree day so I could use the resorcinal to glue up my tiller for Destiny. I glued it up yesterday and today I shaped it and did the initial sanding. It is made out of alternating pieces of mahogany and white ash. I had very little spring back when I unclamped it which you can see from the template laying on it before I shaped it.
The tiller is 3-1/2" above my knee and it easily goes over the top of my leg when I'm sitting in the cockpit. The end that I hold is close to horizontal which makes it an easy resting point for the hand doing the steering.
For anyone who is interested I made a layout so it could be duplicated.
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Beautiful! I was wondering what was going on with your tiller. I like the ergonomic thinking that you have put into your design.
I also like seeing your cool workbench.
Ben
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Thanks ben
I built the workbench back in march of 2004. Someday it will belong to my oldest grandson. My youngest grandson loves tools so I will build a top and bottom tool box that will someday be his.;)
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Thank you for the drawing! The tiller on mine bears a very strong resemblance to to a $5 home depot wheel barrow handle.....
Been sitting in the cockpit reaching for an imaginary tiller to try and come up with a design to build (On warm days anyway!)
Very nice bench. The levers lower the wheels through a cammed end? and when fully down, what locks them? a simple over-center design?
Ken.
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You are right on both counts Ken...
The wheels are lowered with a simple cam and there is no need for a lock because in the down position the cam is past center and it stays down on it's own.
I attached a PDF which should make the drawing easier to read if you print it out.
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Have you had time to check your PMs yet? Carl
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Carl sorry I had not seen your message...
I tend to forget all about checking for private messages. But I have replied back to you now.
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Nice work
Nice work, and thanks for the layout drawing. I may be doing much the same myself soon, but there is one thing I wonder about. Why do the laminated build up? It seems perhaps they were original to the boats, but I always thought laminated tillers were a bit inferior in appearance to solid shaped. It looks like the pattern could be got out of 5-1/2" stock with just a band saw and then shaped up. I have seen a few herreshoff tillers that were really lovely. Plenty strong enough in the right wood, I imagine.
Just a question, not a critique, it looks really lovely.
-Frank
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Hi Frank...
Perhaps laminated tillers are inferior in appearance. This is why I plan to make a second tiller out of all mahogany which will look more like one made from solid stock.
But the laminated tiller is significantly stronger than one made from solid stock. The grain pattern of the individual strips follows the shape of the tiller which by itself adds strength. Think of wood like a bundle of plastic straws. If the straws are running close to perpendicular to the length of the tiller it is easier to break the tiller in between the straws separating the bundle. But if all of the straws are running the entire length of the tiller it is much more difficult to break it because now you have to actually break the bundle of straws in half and not just separate them from the other straws. Does that make sense or have I had too many beers tonight???
<O:p</O:p
The reason I used the white ash in this tiller is because white ash resists bending and twisting much better than mahogany. So by mixing the two I get the strength of the white ash and the appearance of the mahogany all in one.
But as I said earlier I plan to make another spare tiller (which might become the primary tiller) out of all mahogany. And while I believe it will be strong enough to handle the forces applied to it I learned long ago that I am not able to over come the urge to over build everything I make. I know that if I build it stronger than it needs to be then I don't have to worry about it anymore.
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short and runout
Jerry's 2"X2" diagram of the tiller layout in post #64 also works to show what would happen if you laid out the tiller on a nice plank of mahogany - or any wood.
It's easy to see the short grain in the tapering of the tiller to its end. Just follow the horizontal grid lines through the slender handle. That's short grain.
Easy to imagine it cracking there the first time you leaned on the tiller by mistake.
And there is too much runout in the grain where it approaches the tiller head.
Same result, and compounded by the side loads a tiller takes in use.
It would be dangerous at the end of the tiller where you have 3 closely grouped bolts holding the tiller onto the bronze tiller head - if there was any slanted grain there.
You could have a solid NON laminated tiller if you took your pattern out to where a locust tree had fallen - and tried the pattern on various limbs, then
cut your tiller out of that single curved piece of wood. They used to carve out floors and knees for wooden ships by chopping out curved pieces of tree crooks, crotches, limbs coming out of trunks, roots, and such. Curved limbs for frames.
Seem to remember the term "grown knees".
So if you found the perfect limb and carved out the tiller - you'd have a grown tiller, by gum.
And if you had the right wood (Honey Locust would be good) it would definitely be stronger than a laminated job which is only as strong as its glue.
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I think the shape is perfect. I like how the handle end droops down so it becomes level when installed.
You probably wont find a stock tiller shaped like that. Usually the handle end points up. Not terrible, but it could be better. The drawing is helpful, and H & L could build one based on that for the non-carpenters here
The worst is a tiller that is too low. Not only do you bang your knee, you end up having to lean over while steering. Becomes uncomfortable
Nice job
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Thanks Commander Pete...
I'm not sure who H & L is but I'm guessing they could build it cheeper than I could because they probably have a lower cost of materials and labor.
Not counting the time it took me to build the jig or make the template I'm guessing it takes me about 6 to 8 hours of labor to make one of these. By the time I set up the bandsaw and resaw all the strips and surface them in the planer, then glue everything up and shape it afterwards and sand it I would not be surprised to have that much time in it.
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Jerry, I believe H&L build replacement tillers for just about any boat, and have in stock or patterns for any one design.
I sent them a pattern of my own, and of course more radical than any they show on their web site.
Thought they would find a close match to a set up they already had. But I got back was a beautiful and exact laminated tiller of the pattern I sent, rounded and sanded for about 70 bucks.
There are no glue lines in what they do, so I suppose they use 'plastic resin' glue
the mix with water powered stuff. Traditional for glue up spruce spars, imco. It's water resistant. But you hardly ever see one of their varnished tillers delaminating. Except down at the tillerhead where the bolts are and people forget to juice the holes through the wood.
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Thanks Ebb
I just did a search and found several people selling their tillers and they were advertised between $60.00 and $100.00 based on the exact tiller you wanted. A very reasonable price based on what I know I have invested in mine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Commander 147
I'm not sure who H & L is but I'm guessing they could build it cheeper than I could because they probably have a lower cost of materials and labor.
Jerry
Most likely H & L isn't making any money building tillers. At such a low price they are attracting customers with a classic "loss leader" item. I'm sure it's also a way to get rid of leftover scrap materials and keep employees busy. Something more complicated than a tiller from them will no doubt have "market" pricing.
I make cutting boards out of my leftover scraps mostly as gifts for friends and customers.
Ben
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Spent the day working on Destiny today...
And the pictures below show why you don't use polyester resins to tab in a bulkhead. The first picture is what somebody did for the previous owner when he replaced the bulkheads. It was coming loose and when I pryed on it a little it just popped loose which you can see in the second picture. I had to cut it loose from the bulk head so I can redo the tabbing.
My current project is repairing and reinforcing the bottom side of the deck where I will later be recoreing from the top. After patching all of the holes I will be putting a layer of 1708 biax and a layer of 6oz finishing cloth on the bottom of the deck to give it more strength before I cut into the top. And once I had talked myself into going to all that work I decided I would fill the toe rail so I could tie the hull and deck together and make a better looking job of the reinforcing. The third picture is a drawing of what I'm doing at the toe rail.
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Hey jerry,
To stick heavy mat to the overhead you're going to have to figure out a way to hold it up there until it sets. I don't know what.
But it occurs to me if you have to go to the trouble of supporting the cloth with thick cardboard and a miriad of battens to hold it all up there....
why not skip the catortionist wet matt stuff and just support the deck with just enough pressure on the underdeck from spring battens to support recoring the deck from the top.
The argument would be that you are probably going with closed cell pvc foam and epoxy and glass. The green foam I've used has to be considered structural. Marvelous stuff.
You will end up with a very strong composite. Stronger because epoxy sticks better to the foam than it does to end grain balsa.
On the Ariel the foredeck has a plank of plywood down the center from the stem to the cabin. No balsa there. And probably no rot because I found the stip had been isolated from the balsa. Effectively separating the balsa into separate islands. If you are replacing that you could do first one side then the other. You could do the same along the side decks. You'd just make sure you married the sections together real good where they meet.
Glass matt, while very strong, soaks up an extraordinary amount of epoxy. I haven't done it but imco the stuff will be too heavy to stick to the roof, it'll want to pull away, so it will have to be supported everywhere. However, I think you could get away with pasting 6oz glass cloth overhead. Cloth would allow easier filling and fairing too.
TOE RAIL
Filling the inside of the toerail will take a huge amount of expensive epoxy. I know - I filled A338's toerail stem to stem. What's that, 52 feet of 1 1/2"X 1 1/2"X 1 1/2" of fill? Plus waste, squeeze out, and pot life fiascos!
I 'cheated' by jamming one foot long pieces of wood up in there with lots of epoxy gel reinforced with chopped strand. The wood was milled to make a flat bottom inside easy to fair with the deck. In some places you'd never know the hollow toerail was ever there.
Using wood chunks cut roughly to fit could be jammed in the cove and the squeeze-out cleaned up easy because the pieces didn't need to be braced or fastened.
Now there is more wood than plastic inside all along the cove which makes it very friendly to screws and thru-fastenings anytime later.
Just ideas.:D
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Ebb you know I appreciate your ideas...
One of the best parts of having this forum is that it offers us the chance to bounce ideas off each other. Many times other people will bring up points you have not considered. That seems to be the situation here.
When I use 1708 biax my procedure has been to wet out the area I want to apply the mat to then wet out the mat on both sides working the epoxy into the mat on a flat surface. Then I pick up the saturated mat and apply it to the surface I'm woking on rolling out any bubbles.
Now here comes the part (being honest) that I had not considered. I have not had any problem with the mat sticking to a verticle surface when I applied it. So I had not considered that it would not stick to the bottom side of the deck. And your point seems to be a valid concern.
Being a bit hard headed once I have committed towards a course of action and since you say you have never actually tried it yourself, I think I'm going to try a section in the bow in the chain locker area. If I have to grind it back out in there and do something else it does not matter as much if it is not as attractive of a finish.
The side of the hull and to a much lesser extent the bottom of the deck both have a lot of bumps and hollows in the glass work. I had already assumed I would fair those areas out with thicked epoxy before I apply the mat. I wanted a nice smooth surface to make it easier for the mat to stick to it without bubbles and hollow spots.
BTW Ebb, you will be happy to hear that I am no longer using West System epoxy. I found Raka non-blushing epoxy which seems like it wets out better also. Certainly a lot cheaper and it has a good reputation on the plastic classic forum. The other thing that has been mentioned about this epoxy is that is seems to cause less reactions for people like me who are sensitive to it.
As far as the toe rail goes... my thought pattern went something like this. It is my hope that someday one of my grandchildren will take up sailing and then ownership and care of Destiny. As a matter of fact that is one of the things that drew me to the commander. I wanted a large enough cockpit so I could take my family sailing and we would all be able to sit in the cockpit comfortably. So I wanted something that would never be a problem down the road. And since the rubrail is screwed into this area it was conceivable to me that over time water could get in there and cause the wood to rot if I put wood up in there. Granted it would take a very long time and likely not occur in my lifetime but possibly in my granchildren's. So I wanted somthing water would not affect. I talked to the folks at Fiberglass Coatings in St. Pete and we came up with a polyester putty that they developed called FC8 that is thickened with microfibers and silica that would fill the toe rail area. I'm not asking it to do anything structural I'm only asking it to fill a void that will be enclosed with epoxy wet out fiberglass. For $90.00 I got a 5 gal bucket of the stuff that should be enough to do the toe rail. Then not being one to just take some salesman's word for anything I mixed up a pint of the putty and put it on a piece of plastic that would allow me to get it off in one piece. I wanted to see how strong the stuff was. The putty was about 1/2" thick and when I tried to break it I could not do it until I supported the two ends and took a hammer to it. Then when it did break it broke cleanly into 3 pieces and did not just shatter. Take a look at the pictures below.
Here is a link to the website.
http://www.fgci.com/
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Jerry, The whole thing for me too has always been feedback.
We are engaged in Discussions here
- sometimes not much
sometimes too much
- but always with the thought that anybody can join in
- or read and move on.
The most marvelous thing about the internet still is that it is about information,.
every kind, not just product info.
I've been taken by product hype so many times that I, if I remember to, feel that research, product and other peoples experiences are necessary before I dive in.
This is about that.
Be interesting to hear about your experience with RAKA epoxy.
I also hope you record for us how the rail cove filling goes. Using inexpensive polyester filler seems OK [VENT THE FUMES, they are toxic], but we have to assume you aren't expecting a bond and that you probably will seal the upgrade with, I don't know, light fiberglass fabric and epoxy.
Given the age of our boats a reinforcement of the deck-to-hull seam seems like a good idea also. The seam is just about where the end of the fill will be if it is faired with the bottom of the deck.
Really enjoy the exchange and your photo journal.
Without question the ability to share photos, insights and experiences with others makes this classic plastic website
THE BEST on the planet!:cool::cool::cool:
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Started putting putty into the toe rail today...
Temperature got up to 61 degrees today which was just enough to start putting some of the putty into the toe rail. I'm posting now because I'm waiting for the 3rd layer to cure enough that I can put in another layer yet today.
This putty has the consistancy of drywall mud. I used to buy old houses and fix them up so I got pretty good with drywall finishing. It helped with this job.
The first picture below shows how I marked a referance line on the hull for how far down I wanted to go with the putty. This line is about 1/8" below the deck which insures I'm below the butt joint of the hull and deck.
The second picture below are the tools I've been using today. A round nose trowel, a 3" drywall knife, a 6" drywall knife, a pint mixing cup, a CC cup to measure the MEKP hardener and a plastice mixing board and last but not least a couple of box fans with one blowing fresh air into the cabin and a second one sucking air out from the forward hatch.
The key to working with this stuff is not trying to put too much in at once. As I type this I have 3 layers of putty in the toe rail and I expect it will take 5 or 6 to get it completely filled. And then I may need to do a skim coat to level out a few areas after that.
For the most part I used the 6" drywall knife to put the putty into the toe rail. I used the 3" drywall knife to scrape the 6" knife clean so I did not have putty on the knife anywhere but where I wanted it. The trowel was only useful for stuffing some putty into some inside corners where I could not get with the 6" knife. I also used the 3" knife for mixing the material on the mixing board. I would put the putty on the board and dig a little hole in the center. Then I poured the MEKP into the hole in the center and mixed it until it was a consistant color through out.
The last picture below shows how much putty I would put on the knife before I pushed it up into the toe rail. For most of the filling operation I used the drywall knife perpendicular to the toe rail and would just push what was on the end of the knife into the toe rail and then move over 6" more and do the same thing again. Once I get it full enough I will use the 3" knife and run parallel to the length of the toe rail to get a nice even layer. Then finally I will do a skim coat just filling in low spots.
The next post will show a progression of photo's showing layers of putty going in.
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Progression photos
First one is one layer. Second picture is 5 layers and 3rd. picture is 3 layers (sorry I got the photos switched around a bit) which means I will need at least one more layer to get to the point I want to.
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Great work Jerry! (this, and your beautiful woodwork as well!)
I am about to start this 'rail fill' project myself... I decided to do away with the rub-rail, but filling the rail is necessary in order to install the long Genoa track on the rail...
I was considering using polyester resin along with a thickening agent... but this putty product seems quite interesting.
I am looking forward to hearing how happy you are with this product.
C-147 is fast becoming a VERY happy ship. Surely it will last for generations (They already have a great start!)
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Thanks Rico
I plan to use an 8 or 9 foot long Genoa track myself on the toe rail and that was another of the considerations for doing this project. And while we are talking headsail tracks, how long is the jib track you installed? I plan to do one like that and any feedback on how long yours was and how it is working for you would be helpful.
As far as this putty goes, it gets very hard. It should work exactly as I wanted it to in the genoa track area giving a solid surface to bolt through. It is pretty much exactly what you were thinking of using a polyester resin with a thickening agent (microballons and fumed silica) that is already premixed. All you have to do is add the MEKP to activate it and go.
I should warn you that the fumes are pretty bad. Even with a fan blowing in from the companionway and another blowing out from the forward hatch while I worked in the v-birth area and me wearing a mask that is designed for paint fumes I still ended up with a headache that I blame on the fumes at the end of a 5 hour day of using this stuff. The shelter Destiny is under is wide open on one end and 6 foot by 6 foot canopied opening on the other. But it still probably helped to hold fumes around the boat more than if it was in the wide open air.
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Well the weather has redirected me a bit...
away for a short time from the toe rail project and towards finishing up the all mahogany tiller. Yesterday we had another 70 plus degree day so I cut out of work a little early so I could take advantage of the warm air to glue up my all mahogany tiller. Then today the temperature after work was below 60 degrees so I did not want to chance the putty not setting up so instead I finished making the tiller.
All went well until I was using a router bit to put a radius in the edges of the tiller and I had a blow out. See the first picture below.
But if you were to hold the tiller in your hands and look at it you would never know it was there unless I showed you what to look for. The second tiller shows the salvaged tiller and the original one I made.
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tiller talk
Jerry,
Making a second tiller is one thing I have thought of doing, and may still, because I like your idea of an all mahogany tiller.
I would make the bending/clamping form flat on a table.
I would use thinner laminations, as thin as 5/32"
I'd glue a number of veneers together - 9 - 12
- maybe not all at the same time
- maybe two or three separate glue ups to keep the bent wood stress small.
- take the tiller out of clamps when set - trim to its final length
- and work the desired taper into it. Not sure I would taper just the bottom, but that would be simplest.
Because the bottom laminations are theoretically in compression and not likely to splinter.
Then I would put it back in the form and glue a final strip or two on the bottom and on the top if necessary that would become the finished dimensions.
That way there would be no runout of tapered veneers. Which the H&L tillers all have, and aesthetically imco is this method's glaring feathering of glue line and veneer on the bottom of the lamination.
Being one beautiful color the tiller could look like a single piece.
And the grain would run full without runout on both top and bottom.
Thinner lams theoretically produce less stress in the bent composite.
Two or three wet and set glue-ups. would produce a tame tiller especially in the outside lamination that has most of the tension.
Less likely to let go and pop a splinter when finishing.
Miore glue lines, if it's the right glue, could arguably make a stronger tiller.
Haven't seen anybody do a tiller this way. With mahogany I'd probably use resorcinol.
If I ever get to it, I'll give that a try.
We should always carry a spare.
That would be the nifty two-tone H&L I have now.
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Ebb that sounds like it would make a nice looking tiller
Not sure it would work with my design unless I eliminated the knob on the bottom side of the tiller. I need all of the laminations to get the height for the knob. And that is also why almost my entire taper is on the bottom. This leaves the top piece almost intact and continuous.
As I was typing that it occurred to me I could just glue a couple of pieces to the end of the bottom afterwards to make my knob.
I do have one bottom strip that dies out completely and a second one that comes close which leaves the very obvious glue line from the resorcinol on the bottom which you can see in the picture below.
I also agree with the thinner strips thought. I honestly think I could have made mine thinner than I did which was 1/4". But when I did my test clamp up everything seemed to work OK so I went with it. But thinner strips would have created less stress just more glue lines.
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I can imagine that your boat shelter might trap some fumes, but I cannot thing of any other disadvantage. You have a great 'workshop'!
My Jib track is 4' long. You do not need the full 4', but I wanted to avoid using the ends. I highly recommend the set-up. It has worked beautifully with my sail. Pointing ability increased dramatically with the ability to trim properly.
I spoke with the putty folks - and as it turns out, they have no suppliers out west. It is hazardous material, so shipping was almost as much as the product... So I may en-up mixing my own putty after all...
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Doesn't Bondo make a LITE version of their stuff?
[Yes, DYNALITE, $10 qt.]
Auto paint suppliers might have it. Paintstores that carry automotive spray paint will have it or another brand. It's all the same stuff really.
Since it sets up hard I would use a plastic spreader (the green ones are the best) to fill the cove. A bendy plastic spreader will produce a flatter fill with a slight hollow. That is, after you stuff the cove you run the spreader at 90 degrees to the hull in the corner, scraping the excess away. After it sets up you can easily smooth the area with a sanding block, and do very minor fairing fill to get it perfect, if necessary.
For what it's worth I would recommend tabbing the corner with epoxy and glass.
Assures the structural join of deck to hull and will stop water from coming through the seam.
Don't know what the shrinkage is, but in a thick form as in the cove I would guess there will be some.
Before covering there has t be a complete cure. MSDS or datasheet. This allows the solvents to subside. That will ease bonding of the next system going over the polyester.
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Well there seems to be no end of things that require my time...
But I still have been finding some time for the boat. As the old saying goes where there is a will there is a way.
Ebb I am happy to report that the 1708 biax stuck very well to the bottom side of the deck. I layed 11" wide area on the bottom of the deck and 4" wide on the side of the hull. I cut the pieces into a small manageable size that was only 9" wide. Then I wet out the deck and hull where I was getting ready to put the biax, and then the mat side of the biax. I would stick the biax up with my referance line right on top of the fillet where the deck and hull come together. Then add resin to the exposed woven side of the biax and imediately follow with a layer of 6oz. cloth to minimize the amount of fairing I have to do later.
The first picture is what it looked like after I had the glass in place. It actually went very well.
The next picture is some future planning work I'm doing. Initially I plan to have my halyards terminated at the mast and I will mount a couple of winch pads on the mast for the halyard winches. But as I get older I may decide I want to run them back to the cockpit. So the second picture is of areas that I am making solid glass pads for rope clutches and winch bases.
And since I need to recore the bow area and because I wanted to make a more substantial mounting point for my bow cleat I glassed in the top of the bulhead leading to the chain locker.
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Destiny gets a solid fiberglass mast step
The piece of wood that was under "Destiny's" mast when I got her was in pretty sad shape and needed replacing. I contemplated a lot of options and the one I contemplated the most other than the decision I finally made was the route Rico took. But in the end since I'm doing a major refit anyway I decided to make a permanent solid fiberglass mast step that has become a part of the deck.
I started out by making a wood plug the size and shape of the step I wanted to end up with.
Attachment 6750
Then I had to build a piece that recreated the curvature of the deck that I could set on my workbench so I could attach the plug to it and build a framework around it that would hold the casting resin I was using to make a mold for the fiberglass step.
Attachment 6751
After that I poured in the casting resin, let it set up and I had a female mold that would allow me to make a solid fiberglass mast step. Then I popped out the wood plug and started cutting pieces of fiberglass that would allow me to fill the mold with solid glass. I must have cut between 30 and 40 pieces to get enough to fill the mold. I painted the mold with release wax and started laying up my mast step. After all the glass was wet out I covered the assembly with visquene and then clamped the piece that matched the curvature of the deck to the top of it. After the epoxy cured I dissasembled everything and took out the fiberglass mast step. I used a special solvent that removed any traces of the release wax and then sanded everything smooth.
While I was waiting for the epoxy to cure on the mast step I recored the deck where the new mast step would go with solid glass. And as long as I was at it I made the areas where the forward hatch hinges go through the deck solid glass also.
Attachment 6752
Then when all the parts were ready I mixed up some thickened epoxy and spread an even layer on the bottom of the new step and pushed it down on the deck. I used the squeeze out to make a fillet around the step. Once that had set up I glassed the entire thing down to the deck. This picture shows it at that stage. The only thing still needing to be done is to sand it then fair it out with some epoxy thickened with cabosil and mircoballons.
Attachment 6753
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Destiny gets a new hand hold on the main companionway hatch
The little piece of wood trim that came on "Destiny's main companionway hatch did not allow for an easy way to grasp the hatch and slide it back and forth. So I decided to make somethiing for it that was more accomodating to my fat fingers.
This was not a real easy task as I found out when trying to make the new hand hold. The curvature of the hatch is not a smooth radius so I found I had to first cut and shape the bottom of the new piece to match the shape of the hatch. Then 2-1/4" above that point I had to draw and cut a true radius that would allow me to use the top as an indexing point for the 4 router bits it would take me to make the profile I wanted to make.
This first picture is the profile of the new hand hold.
Attachment 6754
This second picture is the view showing how it looks on the hatch.
Attachment 6755
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Nice work Jerry, I'm impressed!
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Thanks Ben
You do nice work also. I appreciate the complement.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ariel 109
Nice work Jerry, I'm impressed!
I'll second that without hesitation.
I never thought about Commanders having core where the hatch hinges attach. I guess you could accuse me of being 'hullcentric'.
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Thanks Tony
Lord knows I've seen some nice work from your posts also. Hope your cabin comes out the way you want it to this time. Your new chain locker bulkhead is looking good too. Certainly an improvement from the original version. Fiberglass boats have come a long way since ours were built. Some of it good and some not so good.
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Exciting times !!!!
Today I received the electric inboard drive for Destiny. It is really nice to finally see this thing in person and get a feel for what is in front of me for the install. It is also nice to see the apparent high quality of the parts and pieces that came. For me (I am NOT an electrical engineer) it was really good that I could find a vendor that supplies a complete package that is all designed to work together. I know Mike saved money by doing his piecemeal on C227 but I was willing to pay the extra for a complete packageAttachment 6897eAttachment 6896.Attachment 6895
Here is the link to Electric Yacht's website.
http://www.electricyacht.com/
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Pretty snazzy Jerry!
I bet you're excited to lay down in the bilge and cut, grind and glue in the Florida heat. I'm sure you'd like to put it off til it cools down but you got new gizmos that are crying to be played with. It was winter when I did mine and I'm too cheap to heat much. I had a sweatshirt on under my tyvek suit. Make sure you have someone come out and poke you with a stick every now and again to be sure you're still moving.
Mike
C227