Deck joint-Who, What and When
Some time ago in one of these threads the topic of the deck to hull seam was tossed about. I tried to scroll back to the begining of the tech threads and dig for the information but all I got was a couple of mentions and fuzzy vision. Not everything I remembered it to be! Usually when I sit in the cabin or lay inside one of the cockpit lockers invisioning possibilities my eyes inevitably drift to one of two things:1) my beverage sitting just out of reach or 2) that pesky seam. It has held up for fourty years but it just doesn't look that strong. Besides, maybe it was only supposed to last fourty-one years. The cloth doesn't even appear to have been saturated and looks to be as weak as the cloth that was tabbed to the mast support beam(cut that with a dull standard screwdriver). Granted I haven't even started sanding in that area yet but it is definitely on the list of things to address. I've thought about filling it with epoxy, fileting the underside of the then flush deck/toerail with the inside of the hull and over lay that assembly with cloth and epoxy compatable matting. The primary goal is to strenghten the joint with secondary intentions of providing a strong attachment for a caprail. The one stumbling block for me is it would probably amount to twenty-some pounds of epoxy before we're done and a couple of scorched areas from the exothermic curing. The thought of rolling glass up inside the toerail doesn't thrill me one bit so I'd like to fill that void with something( however, I did get two glass rollers for Christmas this year even though it should have been an ab-roller:( )
What has worked for others out there? Tell us your stories of how you cured this feable joint. Any ideas of a good approach to take?
1 Attachment(s)
look at this poor man's scanner
Here's what I'm leaning toward. This should add strength, weight and reinforcement for adding that Hinkleyesque toe rail and rubrail...:cool:
STAINLESS STEEL HAS MOVED
The stainless steel discussion has moved to the "Stainless" and "Stainless Cont" threads.
Golly, not that joint again!
Joe'
Admiral Bill is the one to ask. It would be good to have the official Pearson specs in a schematic form for this magical joint!
You may have read my objections to it in the text on these pages. It is a butt joint (NO FLANGES) with layers of matt holding the join together. There are obvious thickness differences over the years of production. But it is a mindlessly simple feat of engineering to say the least.
This miracle joint has evidently held the A/Cs together for nearly half a century! So far as I know no Ariel deck has separated from the hull in any shape or form!
I don't believe that any production boat (of course I don't know how other models of Pearson/Alberg hull/deck connections were made) has a simpler connect. Makes me wonder if all the doodah of bolts and turns and flanges and 5200 is really necessary. Except to keep the water out....which was not thought out very well on my Little Gull because the screws for the 1/2" 'rubbing strake' aka stainless steel trim were driven right into the seam causing a number of leaks. Things have radically changed.
338s actual hull and deck connect is little more than 1/8" to 3/16" actual laminate meeting edge to edge
with a varying thickness of polyester matt tabbing that in some places made the join around 3/8" thick.
You have to assume that this is a 'cold' joint as the deck and hull had to be existing befor they were glued, RIGHT? Polyester is not a glue!
All Hail Our Great Goddess: Polly Ester!
Renegade flawed hull deck joint
173 Renegades - designed by Bill Shaw - were built by Pearson between 1967 and 1969 after they replaced Carl Alberg with Shaw.
The boat has quite different underbody than an Alberg A/C or Triton in that the keel is more fin-like and the rudder is detatched from the keel, in a free standing spade.
The Shaw design represents a departure from Alberg/Pearson keel hung wooden rudders to fiberglass.
Leaves the inboard Atomic 4 propeller completely exposed.
Ballast ratio is different also. While the Ariel/Commander ratio of ballast to displacement is about 50/50 - the ratio of the R. is 1/3 ballast to 2/3 disp.
Renegade is 27L - 21 LWL - 8.5B - 4.25D. Ballast 2100lbs. Displacement 6500lbs.
However, Pearson's hull-deck join - evidently after thousands of these boats alone - never was engineered or upgraded correctly during these three different model runs. It's a Pearson thing.
While all of them were sold as bluewater capable boats, it's obvious now when these old glass boats are involved in accidents that test the mettle of Pearson construction methods
that this most important connection, hull to deck, of these boats is seriously FLAWED.
And just as seriously not usually recognized by restorers, renovaters, and owner-voyagers.
Maybe the age of these boats has something to do with the serious destruction of the fiberglass seam in these recorded accidents.
Maybe it's new. Or maybe it's showing up more as we ask more of these boats. Imco age has something to do with it.
Maybe these starved seams - with fiberglass strands turned at crushing angles - are getting tired?
If there is TWISTING of the boat as it's being sailed or
stored improperly braced on the hard....perhaps both passive and active stress can weaken these minimalistic hull-deck seams?
There are some solutions discussed here in this thread that Rex Miller might be made aware of.
But it looks like he has another boat.
Sincerely hope that Theis is well and enjoying life. Very much miss his input here on Pearson Ariel dot org.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................................
An overall easy solution for these flawed hull-deck seams wants further discussion.
First, it has to be recognized through example and discussion that this is (or is becoming) a dangerous problem.
Rex talks about the Pearson monoque fiberglass design as seriously flawed at the hull-deck seam. Put that way, it shows how weak and meager
the seams are on these three class models.
Better in all cases would have been a simple lap joint, 'shoe box' joint, one over the other. Glued & bolted. No ifs, angles, or butts at all.
The laminate schedule on A338 left a thickness of 1/8" toe-rail BUTTED to a 1/8" hull. Seam covered with casual thicknesses of matt ! ! !
Any fix is going to take time and money.
Have a feeling that a fix for our boats that physically bonds toerail/deck to hull - from the outside -
maybe wraps up and over the toerail....
is the easiest and best way to approach it......
for everybody rehabbing a Pearson Alberg or Shaw cruiser for bluewater sailing.
Be great if there is even more input on the subject here.
What kept VentoDea from sinking?
Happy New Year!
Sounds like Plan, Progress and forensic photos always appreciated!
I think beefing up the inside in way of the hul/deck seam on our early Pearson classic plastics, while not the easiest, finishes up the cleanest looking when all is done.
Most of the ADFSF Breakfast Club have boats and agendas that won't include either an interior or exterior upgrade.
Do think a fix is possible and doable without disturbing the inside.
Took a drawing of the exterior biaxial idea for the West Coast Triton to the meeting and passed it around.
Added two more biaxial tape wraps to the model, making for five layers.
Didn't get much discussion....pretty used to that.
Can understand that to focus on something so basic as a hull/deck seam on Sunday morning
doesn't fire up the imagination. But, believe bringing to attentionm is important.
Short exchanges between oatmeal and eggs about what might have caused it....someone said the huge dent in VentDea's hull showed scrape damage in it ....and thought the boat had been hit by a log or something. Good possibility! There goes my twisted banana hypothesis.
The cause of the terrible damage to the boat seemed transfered to something IN the water rather than the water itself. To me, the grade of cause isn't the problem. A boat could be squeezed inadvertantly when sharing a canal lock with a steel monster.,,,,and crippled.
The integrity of the frp monoque structure of our boats (with reinforced seams and backup structures that support the skin)
will do a lot to protect the boat from unusual events.....whether they're freak waves, hitting logs at speed, or surving groundings and other hard places.
As someone said about our current weather: It'l be the same weather as always, just more extreme:
hotter summers, colder winters, longer droughts, bigger floods, colossal hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis and freak waves.
The only smart thing we do is increase chances of survival.
Back up our compromises.:cool:
Our little one-to-one ballast to displacement cruisers.... if they run into a problem, that problem can instantly become disaster.
Went to the VentoDea blog: 3 Knots / Man, Wife and Dog drifting to warmer climates - 3-knots.com/ (link on Atomvoyages.com/)
NEARLY THE WHOLE LENGTH OF THE BOAT ON THE PORT SIDE HAD BEEN PUSHED IN ABOUT A FOOT.
Jerrad: "The disbelief didn't last more than moment before we began tp assess our situation.
There was a four foot diameter dent in the side of the hull.
The hull itself had been separated from the deck and pushed in about a foot - nearly the whole length of the boat on the port side.
There was delamination at the waterline.
We had no electricity, no GPS, no radio, our paper charts were destroyed.
The window on the lee side had been blown into the boat from the pressure as we rolled.
The permanent shelves and bulkheads had been blown clean off the hull.
The tiller had been broken off, one of the chainplates pulled off. [assume the mast survived - probably because they didn't 360.]
The kayak was split in two, we had maybe 2 hours of sunlight and it was still blowing a gale.
I had a feeling that it was going to be a long night."
They had 3 feet of water in the cabin that Jarrad's partner Josie managed to hand pump out!
They ended up close to shore where they were intercepted by the Columbian Coast Guard and towed in.
The Triton was declared a total loss by Columbian Customs and abandoned in Columbia. (VentoDea RIP)
Their dinghy and been split in two! (No mention of a life raft.)
Just suppose it had been dark.
Suppose your raft cannister had been stripped off by the comber and lost, and your dinghy smashed....
Our boats when they get enough water in them.... just go to the bottom....they don't float.
Wonder how many more gallons - or cups - would have settled VentoDea low enough for waves to come onboard?:eek:
Can't Happen To Me!
Stitching VentoDea's Seam
Joshua Slocum found Spray languishing in a Gloucester field. Shortened it by cutting the middle out. Rigged it and went sailing.
Don't know if he had help, but the boat was 38 feet, wasn't it? I've always thought that guys and gals in the old days had more stamina, more wear-with-all, piss and vinegar and plain guts. Harry Pidgeon was another...built his boat from the keel up.... and also circumnavigated the planet!
Probably too late now. But an enterprising soul of quality might have rescued VentoDea languishing somewhere on a Columbian dock.
The boat spent 50 or more years being a Triton.
The 4' diameter dent can be popped back out to its former curve. The port seam can be jimmied and jacked back out to the deck line. Then, temporaryly bulkheaded and spot welded with epoxy back to it's former sweet Albergian sheer.
Woke up this AM thinking of ways it might be done. First, prop the boat up on its keel and proceed to push (and pull) the portside back out. Then see if the deck and hull can be married back to it's lines. Line up the seam like it was and stitch it tight with wire and rope and clamps.
Important to get the port side hull as fair as possible with props, temporoary glued in blkhds - before filling the toe-rail seam.
Then build two circular cradles out of twoby and plywood so the boat can be ROLLED. Doesn't matter how the cradle is attached to the hull and deck....tab it on if necessary!
Cut holes for twoby straight thru both sides of the hull above the ballast and tie the cradle together there. Cross connect over deck or holes thru cabin. Patch holes later.
With all that weight to roll, it'll take a bit of planning and levering.
If the ballast is external (not encapsulated) then it could be removed.
It probably should have had its bolts replaced anyway...before it began any voyage. Certainly easier to roll the boat without its ballast.
The idea is to get the toerail positioned so that it can be worked without having grinding dust and epoxy in your face.. Less than 90% over on its side would be enough. Internal cross support needs planning when rolling boat onto its wounded side.
For this, it's worth the effort building a strong rolling cradle.
Assuming there is access to a greater part of the seam while keeping (at least temporaryly) most of the existing minor bulkheading and furniture in place. Get biaxial fabric and laminating epoxy together.
Then maybe roll up narrow logs of biax and epoxy, jam them into the cove of the toerail.
Prop pvc pipe wrapped in seran against the fill to make a large fillet curve in the corner.
Then, lay on the strips of fabric that tie the seam deck to hull.
(.....think I hear VentoDea calling.....)
I've had to leave the marina at times when lein sale boats - that hadn't made the cut - were towed in FLOATING, strung together like exhausted horses - where they were doomed to be butchered, and dumpt in a landfill. A338 is lined up along a fence on the hard with a bunch of others. Many in the beginning had flurries of restoration. Now sit neglected.... waiting for their owners to come back again....maybe never.
A small percentage of those boats make it out of the yard to sail far again.
If VentoDea hasn't been trashed, with some effort she could feel the wind dipping her rail again....seamlessly!
Thing is, VentoDea the Triton, crippled as she was, got the 3-Knots band safely back to land - had the good will and stamina to get her people and the dog to safety....
Bulkhead reinforcement/Shelf joint
I recently discovered ponding on the inside shelves on my CP#162 and believe I need to reseal the deck seam. Some of the shelving near the bulkhead is soft and needs replacing. My question is regarding the bulkheads that the chain plates mount to. First, what are they made of? Second, what is the inside rail beneath the shelves made of? and third, Do the bulkheads that the chain plates bolt to (that is glassed to the shelves) need to be glassed to the shelf for further strength or can the shelf be removed under it. (and add length to the bulkhead for added strength?
Thanks,
Rob