I did the same on starcrest
how do you know the area being injected was dry? what I used was seagoing epoxy-I filled calking gun tubes--dont recall how much was used....but water kept coming out to no end----I have found that on all full keel fiberglass boats---the area just fore of the rudder shoe----no matter what type of boat---always had crazing----with water seeping out for weeks---- jus'go to any long term haul out yard---this particular area is subjected to all the turning forces---its bound to be a vulneral place on any size boat.thats why I replaced the wrist pins with bronze bolts---not only on the shoe but on the goudgeouns and pintles.one good way to be sure the area is dry is to leave the boat in the desert for a few weeks or months.I remember the mojave desert to be very arid in deed---and the heat----
a month or 2 in death valley
or any other desert will dry it out but good.another possible way would be to chase the water out with acetone
loose lead ballast - the arguement for filling the void.
Theis,
If yer talking about a delicate watch or a coffee pot, expansion is an issue.
If the lead ballast in 338 was dropped in at shop temperature (80 degrees) 40 years ago and is now suspended in liquid (40 to 70 degrees) - if anything it has shrunk a 1/16 of in inch in length, 1/128 of an inch in width.
Being a massive chunk of metal I can't imagine (I can't imagine a lot of things) a ton of lead changing its dimensions very much. The change in temperature to get the lead to change dimension would have to be significant - let's say 100 degrees from datum.
When would that happen?
I think that encapsulating the lead (non-scientifically) is perfectly safe. (Of course I do, since I did it!)
If the boat is going to stand on its keel anytime in the future it would be a great deal better for the weight of the boat to sit on a SOLID foundation. That's just my opinion.
There is certainly more arguement for immovable ballast if the boat will ever spend time on one tack or in bad wave action as a cruiser. From the standpoint of running aground and damaging the encapsulated ballast keel area it may eliminate leak potential if the hull gets gouged. Doesn't guarantee it, just increases margin. This is an area that cannot be repaired from the inside.
I also have the feeling that if there is any environmental expanding and contracting the whole boat is going to be doing it. Lead is a non-corrosive, pretty inert, element unless you've turned it into a battery by carrying acid around in your bilge. Then you'd have a bloating problem :D
Something to seriously think about:
I've gotten some Sanitred product to test on the boat. One of the products is a LIQUID polyurethane that will cure at ANY THICKNESS. (Will set up in the container like epoxy.) Maybe this rubber which cures tuff but pliable would be just the filler for the spaces between the lead and the hull in your boat. To preserve an A/C, I think it is important to keep water out of the laminate* - along with the reasons mentioned above if the boat goes offshore. There can't be any arguement for doing nothing about it....when you are renovating and have the boat out.
*I also argue in favor of SEALING (barrier coating) below the waterline with epoxy or vinylester outside and inside.
There are NO ONGOING TESTS ON 40 YEAR OLD LAMINATES that I am aware of. It is prudent to keep water (especially salt water) out of polyester laminates until such tests are published. We are dealing with first-ever materials in first-ever applications that never have been adequately explored in terms of longevity, soaked or dry, stressed or not stressed. :eek:
How long will a plastic classic last?
no insight, damn!
Some time ago found on net something about tests done by the Navy on some old glass barges they had presumably still floating around somewhere.
They were still in good shape - probably had laminates 6" thick.
But have you heard of any controlled long term experiments on polyester/glass structures?
Me neither. I would think, tho, that the A/Cs are made of 'pre-engineered' materials ie are thicker and simpler and less adulterated.
Would be great if tests were made on hull laminate from the '50s and early '60s from a sailboat headed for the chainsaw. Tests designed to show bending and twisting strengths, continual immersion, salt and marine life intrusion, "crystalization". separation or delaminating resistence, shock loads, point loads, etc.
OR PUT THE WHOLE BOAT THRU OUTRAGEOUS TESTING. Drive it at 8 knots into pilings or a concrete wall. CRASH TESTS. (I'd personally like to find out how a deck to hull butt joint lasts for 40 years, Not the Triton.) No, you're correct, we want to find out about the aging plastic and fiberglass!
Good Ole Boat might fund the study. Maybe there are some funds available. Maybe Pearson could be persuaded to fund third party engineered tests of an early Triton or Ariel? We are rapidly approaching the half century anniversary of production glass boats.
I dun know, can't just ASSUME a plastic classic is going to go on forever, right? You know plastic is an organic compound, it's going to compost sometime.
You got something there, Mike! Let's make an AGM! :D
Have to cut off the polyester lid from the lead (can't be stuck on there too good), lay on the stuffing from an old sleeping bag, drill in some terminal posts, pour on a couple gallons white vinegar, and seal it back up, Gottcher self a POWER cell, ma friend! Last a hunnert years!
"When rosy plumelets tuft the Larch"
That line from Tennyson, a voyager in the ocean of song.
A biologist writes:
"... Though it grows well on a limestone subsoil, it is on sloping mountain sides, where the oldest rocks of the earth's crust crumble into crystalline fragments over some brawling beck that tumble through the glen, that the Larch is seen in its greatest beauty. ...."
How often does a biologist resin poetic about a conifer? His/her alliterative prose gets the heat going on a wonderful high forest lone tree. Marvelous you can use its pungent resin for art restoration. Can dream that two part plastic aspires to similar restoration. Not only of a rare Ariel but the poor schlep's itchy soul.
Robert,
Some time, perhaps, perhaps in the distant future,
a space travelor will come upon a fully rigged Ariel on a cosmic rhumb to a far galaxy... :D
2 Attachment(s)
Water logged foam in keel
The foam in the keel of my commander (in the area behind the lead ballast) appears to be water logged. It continues to drain and leach through the keel for what has now been probably over a year since it was last in the water. I need to get this keel dry so I can stop blisters from forming. Has anyone here ever cut in from the top and removed the foam and then replaced it with something else less likely to hold water And preferably less expensive and lighter than solid epoxy?
The previous owner has been fighting the problem for the last 12 years. I want to fix it once and for all. I believe the water is seeping in from the sump area where the glass covering the keel void is cracked. See picture below.
The manual discusses pumping in epoxy through holes drilled in the keel (which I have drilled to try and drain the water) but what happens to the foam when you pump in epoxy? does it melt into goo or does it retain it's current state and if so how do you ever get all the water out of it?
Advise would be appreciated.
1 Attachment(s)
soaking wet foam confirmed
Well I cut in and started digging out foam tonight and I only had to go down about 6 inches to hit wet foam. The inside ot the keel is all wet which you may be able to see from this photo.
My wife came out to see how things were going and I said so-so. I told her I was getting convinced I was going to have to get the keel dried out grind everything down and resurface the keel to make it water tight again. Then I came in took a shower sat down to post what I had found and saw Bill's post. Seems no matter what I find myself up against there is already someone here that has dealt with it previously. This forum really is a good resource.
So Bill how far up did you go? To the waterline?
Frozen Laminate and Gelcoat Freeze Crazing
5/16"?
I've just confirmed that hull thickness with a thruhull on A338!
So much for the OVERBUILT theory of early glass boats!!!
Keeping water from freezing not only in the bilge but IN THE LAMINATE is I think a new wrinkle in protecting our old gals. Have not come across any tests or experiments of water soaked plastic laminate and freezing. Haven't seen this mentioned befor in this way on the internet by anybody.
So here is the rule for when you decommission the boat for the winter;
Remove all sweet water from the bilge.
Make sure the boat stays bone dry in the bilge through the freezing cycles.
This means the owner must remove all foam in place constructions in the bilge even if they were factory installed. And do not put it back.
I've never liked the idea of water being present in the laminate. Water soaked laminate:(
Under the gelcoat freezing may be a culprit in the breakdown and weakening of the laminate throughout the hull!
In some way we don't know yet, just the presence of water inside the plastic could be bad for a boats health. It is certain that moisture can wick along glass fibers. The glass is merely encapsulated by the plastic. So "FREEZE CRAZING" need not be localized in the bilges only but anywhere in the hull!!!
It is easy to see now that when this water in the fabric is expanded by freezing that laminate can be mechanically broken down. In this scenario crazing in the gelcoat is evidence of a problem in the fiberglass.:eek:
Whether the water gets in the laminate through pinholes and imperfections in manufacturing or some aging phenomenon of the polyester itself would be good to know. Maybe it's a number of things. A number of events.
Never buy a frozen plastic boat.
Make damn sure you look for alligator crazing in the hull gelcoat.
Freezing of water in the hull laminate
Bill,
I put a transducer (more like a golf club than a hockey puck) in the stem a while ago, and that may confirm your observation on hull thickness. BUT
Believe I found the stem on A338 just "turned the corner" and wasn't any thicker then the hull. However after recovering from disbelief, I really beefed up the length of the stem with many turns of tabbing, Xmatt and hairy filler.
And now I wish I had laminated extra fabric onto the OUTSIDE of the whole keel/ballast keel/bilge area as I assume you did before the barrier coat process.
Drilled a number of holes into the encapsulated ballast void for discovery and for draining water and filling with epoxy. Even down here the hull was no thicker than 5/16", maybe 3/8", on the sides. My first drain holes (from the Manual) were straight up through the bottom of the keel where there was considerable thickness (one inch maybe?) But any glass LAYERING was rather abrupt, because side drain holes low down were thru much thinner hull.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____
This has been a discussion of discovery. An important revelation we've all been involved in. Fantastic.
I'm unaware freezing stress IN THE HULL LAMINATE has been mentioned as a cause of gelcoat crazing by the mavens of info that abound the internet.
This observation may be unique. It's not mentioned in any list of gelcoat crazing causes. It's important because it may signal compromised fiberglass.
Bill has identified an important issue for owners of older fiberglass boats.
It seems laminate freezing would be especially important problem for our not very beefy hulls. I think we're talking about plastic within the laminate cracking into small pieces by freezing. Or worse. If bilge water weeps through the hull in crazed gecoat areas then this HAS to be a conclusion!
Here the Forum really informed to perfection!
{be nice if ebb wasn't so damn long winded.:o}
2 Attachment(s)
Interesting new development...
I decided to see how far up the crazed gelcoat went. I started sanding a path up from the keel and the crazing goes all the way up to the top of the barrier coat and then stops dead in it's tracks at the waterline stripe. At first I thought it was maybe associated with the dark color of the bottom paint but that cannot be it since the black waterline stripe does not have any problem under it.
So what in a barrier coat would cause the crazing?????
I tend to agree with you...
This is what I know so far.
First the only place I had a blister problem was in the area where the gel coat had been destroyed by previous bottom jobs. And the blisters were not in the gelcoat because there was no gelcoat for them to be in. They were in the barrier coat when I sanded through that they were gone.
I believe they were caused by the trapped water in the foam inside the keel.
From what I have read fiberglass is more like wood then I previously realized. It takes on water and gives it off just like wood over it's entire lifetime. Does not matter how many coats of finish you put on wood it will still take on and give off moisture on a regular basis.
With fiberglass it is not good to seal both sides of the material and trap whatever water that is currently in it there. That can cause blisters.
So....
This is the direction I'm leaning towards in dealing with my situation.
First in the area where the previous boat yard folks blew through the gelcoat I think I should follow Bill's example and lay a layer of 6oz. cloth over that area and then fair it out. Then after any other things that need work are done (such as the keel damage done by the previous owner) I will barrier coat the entire hull below the waterline. And finally apply bottom paint.
Second I need to finish removing the foam inside the keel and leave that area open to breath so that moisture can go in and out without causing damage.
Looks like my post came after Carl's...
I meant to reply to Ebb.
Carl it seems this type of thing is far more common then I would have guessed.
some thoughts on filling the void
Kyle, What are you going to do about the space?
Could be left alone - drain plugs have been put in.
At the time I discovered THE VOID, I was upset.
Didn't like the idea that more than a ton of lead was essentially loose in the bilge.
I've talked endlessly about this - but here are a few thoughts.
Poured in 6 (probably more, lost track) gallons of epoxy. I didn't know at the time it would
end up with that many. Maybe vinylester or polyester could be used. Or concrete if it could be
made fluid enough to get in all the crans and nookies. Convinced self that epoxy, even
though the surfaces inside cannot be prepped, epoxy promises some superior qualities.
There was, still is, considerable junk in the cavity that we surmised was there to shim the casting
'in place' until the top encapsulation took place. Epoxy might cohere it better, even though it
might still be sodden.
Anyway, drilled through the hull into the cavity at the 'top' of the casting - about where the main
bulkhead is. Must have made exploratory holes to find the top of the lead. Then drilled a larger
hole to get the end of a long gas funnel to fit. Has to be loose in the hole Did the same on the
other side. Drilled small holes like yours at about the top of the lead at the lower end, both sides.
Trying to remember if I thinned the two-part laminating epoxy with xylene...to get it to run
better...can't remember. Filling the void isn't essentially structural. Doesn't take much thinner,
shouldn't use too much, getting it to flow. (Logged the experience into the Forum at one time.)
You want the mixture to flow as long as possible. Visualize that the levels will be horizontal.
A professional would proceed from the low end, and work toward the front using 1/4" holes &
dowel plugs to tell him where the level had got to. I did it from the front, not knowing any better!!
Use the drawing on page 144 in the Manual to help locate the ballast from the outside the hull.
Explained elsewhere how to use it to create an accurate picture giving close measurements..
Spread out the filling events over many days because I didn't want the epoxy to smoke.
Believe you can build heat to where it will damage the hull. When I was going down to the
boat regularly, the first thing was to have a filling session, check on the progress.
Banged in wood plugs to stopper a telltale hole when it began to leak plastic.
I think it would help to do this on mornings of 40, 50, 65 degrees, with slow hardener.
Make sure the epoxy is no-blush, so the layers inside get glued together.
I've always mixed into plastic graduated quart 'cups'. Premarked with a sharpie the
proportions are mixed together quickly and funneled immediately into the fill holes.
Not too many holes. OK? 3/4ers of a qt is about as much to mix and pour before exotherm.
On A338's thin hull, it was easy to feel the heat. 2 or 3 fillholes speed it up. Lead is cold.
After cure...dished the holes and filled back with epoxy and disks of matt and fabric.
What I didn't do, but may work in your boat is to forget drilling holes in the sides of the
hull and do the filling from inside...if you have the cabin sole removed. Drilling location
holes near the hull will be fun. May get lucky if they didn't slobber too much down the
crack between ballast and hull. Never explored this option myself.
In LittleGull, I discovered before it became a catastrophy, that the end of the ballast at
the sump had not been glassed in. I think it may have been left that way
SO THAT THE BALLAST DRAINS INTO THE SUMP. But it was so funky it became
evident that it was just a sloppy job. Ghastly, fixing it with chisels and grinder....:
If you're using polyester, you'll have to drill more holes to get it in faster... before it smokes.
I don't think I could do it! Possible, if one had total access to the top of the ballast inside
the boat - and prepped everything ready... having all fill holes drilled the whole length,
it could be done with polyester.......and a full air mask. Or spare set of lungs.
.................................................. .................................................. ......................................
.................................................. .................................................. ......................................
[later EDIT. This is a comment on Mike's next post #77]
Wonderful find! Really! Urethane foam has a violent reaction when combined, compared
with the much more tame reaction of the SICOMIN. Wouldn't use U-foam inside because
reaction gasses are very toxic. It's not strickly closed cell and not structural. When used
(as the Sicomin video demo shows epoxy foam) as a rudder foam, it always seems to turn
out to be a mistake. (viz Foss Foam rudders.) Sicomin PB250 is a dream come true.
I'd see if the Ensign shop could give us an interview. Be great to find out if they foam
the ballast wide open or cover it and do the hole drilling ballet. Urethane can build up
tremendous pressure if captured without a way out when expanding. The epoxy foam
seems much gentler...but imco needs some expert advise. It's got to fill every bit of the
void to be totally effective. Wouldn't want a puddle of water developing somewhere
inside the cavity. (If my experience is typical: using 6-7 gals of liquid....there is 0.1337cu.ft
in a gallon (0.1337x7=0.9cu.ft)...so it looks like a one cubic foot kit would do it....??
This Sicomin epoxy foam looks PERFECT. And whatever it costs, it'll be way cheaper
than filling with liquid epoxy!!!
Another way to fill the void
I had a discussion with a fellow from Ensign Spars about a year and a half ago. Turns out they use an expanding EPOXY foam made by Pro-Set to fill the keel voids in the new Ensigns. A closed-cell AND structural solution.
I couldn't find any retail outlet for the product at the time. He said it was formulated especially for them, but the they might sell it at some point. (A quick look and I don't see on the Ensign site yet.)
Here's a video of the Pro-Set epoxy foam in action.
But if there is a retail outlet for the stuff, it seems like Ebb's fill from the top method would be ideal with this stuff...
< Pause for Google Search... >
Found one! Sicomin Foaming Epoxy
And another! Matrix Composite Materials (in the UK)
It appears expanding epoxy foam has hit the market!
----
And Sicomin has a video using the expanding epoxy foam too.