Good Old Boat has placed the Sandifer delamination repair artical on its Web site at read it online at:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm
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Good Old Boat has placed the Sandifer delamination repair artical on its Web site at read it online at:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm
Bill,
thanks for posting that Good Old Boat article, I'm in the process of thinking out how to tackle my decks on the side of the cabin. I tried the method where you drill holes, but it looks like I didn't quite get all of it as I'm getting spongy areas again. So I'm considering cutting out a whole panel. What I'm concerned about is running into areas of rotten core alternating with good, still laminated core. Which makes it impossible to get a panel of fiberglass off cleanly. Any suggestions?
Robin
Sorry, but I have no idea. Two suggestions, however. First, ask a professional. Most yard people are very helpful. Second, wait and maybe someone will reply to your post. :)
Robin,
I have repaired soggy core on my Ariel, including removing six feet of the outer skin on the port side deck, replacing the core, and and reattaching the skin. Of course, it requires cosmetic glass work and repainting the whole deck including determining how you will restore the non-skid (I used glass beads).
I'm happy to tell you how I did it, and have a few pictures, if you're interested.
--Dave Gillespie
Dave,
Please--tell us about how you repaired the core on your Ariel and post the pictures. I'll be tackling this job in the Spring and could use the info.
Thanks in advance,
Hi
I had to redo my port deck along the cabin too- leaks from the stanchion base and from the jib block tracl pretty much turned to core to mush. I cut away the delaminated deck and cleaned out the debris until I got to sound wood that was still adhered to the glass, then dried it out as best I could (not an easy undertaking in Seattle in winter) then cut endgrain fir blocks to fill the core, embedded them in epoxy and glassed over it all again then painted it.Turned out surprisingly well, considering. I also glassed in a much more substantial backing plate for the stanchion base so the load is much better supported. There are any number of sources for info on how to fiberglass and it's really pretty easy. It also has the benefit of being easily removed with just some grinding if you don't like the result and want to try again. It's been three years since I did mine and I haven't had any problems- no leaks, no flex, no cracks so I'm pretty happy.
Tom
I do have an idea for you that worked well for me
I had one deck area alongside the starboard windows that was a total disaster. The area was the width of the deck and about a foot to 18" long (although for this procedure the size shouldn't make much difference).
I used a Dremel tool with a small router type bit (1/8"as I recall). Marking with a pencil the path for the cutout, I cut out the section of the deck fiberglass over and beyond the area known to have the rotten balsa. I wanted to preserve that deck piece because it has the tread and it would be used again. The cut was at an angle to the extent possible so that the deck piece, when replaced, would not fall through the hole, i.e. cut so that the perimeter of the deck cutout with the tread pattern was larger than the underside.
Then, using varioius chisels and stuff, I cleaned out all the rotten balsa (I think). When the wood started coming out dry and relatively light colored, I assumed that was enough.
Then I filled in the void, but not quite to the deck underside level, with glass mat and resin which in addition to being a filler for the void, also sealed the remaining balsa at the edges. When that had cured, I placed the deck piece cut out over the hole. In places where the cured glass was above the bottom of the deck level, it had to be ground or sanded down with the Dremel tool grinder or 80 grit sandpaper so that the deck piece would fit level with the deck.
I then covered the deck area around the hole with stuff you can get from West that keeps glass from sticking, and did the same with the tread side deck cutout piece. The hole was then filled with resin and a layer of glass and the deck piece cutout placed over the cutout. Wax paper was then put over the entire repair area, which was then covered by a board with heavy weights to force the deckpiece cutout to be flush with the remainder of the deck (The wax paper prevented the board and the weights from sticking to the deck piece cutout and the deck).
When done and cured, the deck and the cutout were level, the deck non-skid pattern was undisturbed except for the 1/8" bead around the cutout. When repainted, the cutout does not even show. You really have to look very close to realize that there was extensive work done on the deck.
On another section (under the mast) I had tried drilling holes and inserting Git Rot. That had turned into a total, time consuming disaster. I think I did fill the void, but the deck and deck pattern were so botched up, that it is easy to tell that they are different
I need to repair some rotten core on the foredeck portside (about 2.5 ft by on 1 foot) and side deck on the starboard side (almost the same size). Also some slight delamination on the starboard side deck. If I remove some skin, where does one get the balsa or is there better wood to use? Does it come in various thicknesses? Can you just use some type of epoxy filler. I have read the previous ideas and it helps. Thanks in advance. Bob
Baltec from www.defender.com
800/628-8225
Why would anyone want to replace that balsa core that turns to
mush with more of the same????. Masochists at heart??? I need to do something to a spongy area on the foredeck too, in fact all Ariel owners seem to have to do the same,
What was the advantage if any, to the balsa core ? I see it as a big PIA!!!
I'm in the process of rebeding all the deck hardware on Brigid: drilling oversize holes, cutting out core material from the sides of the holes with a sharpened allen wrench on the drill, and refilling the holes and undercuts with thickened epoxy. When I redrill for the hardware, it will be through epoxy and any leaks shouldn't reach the core.
I'm going to all this trouble because I've removed too much balsa mush from several small and large deck and cabin top repairs. Previous owners just didn't maintain the hardware fittings.
I can understand balsa's appeal to the builders: cheap, light, oddly strong, and when grain is placed vertically, relatively resistant to water penetration. But over time, any delamination in the presence of leaks, and the stuff completely fails.
My larger repairs have been with marine plywood presealed with epoxy, the smaller repairs have been with thickened resin.
I'll avoid balsa altogether.
--Dave
Was the space(thickness) of the deck filled with the balsa core fairly uniform, or did it require various thicknesses of whatever wood filler was used. I haven't skinned her yet, and am trying to do a liitle planning ahead. I agree, I am tending to steer away from balsa, and am looking at other wood and/or just glassing it or filling with some epoxy filler. Anybody see any problems with either method?
I would suggest using glass and resin after you have cut out as much of the bad stuff as you can reach through the deck cut. The glass resin penetrates and seals the core where you could not reach. With a resin paste, you may not get this sealing action and in fact may leave hollows. When I did mine, I used fiberglass mat, not the wovoen glass cloth, just to bulk up the gap (alongside the starboard aft window). Then I covered it with the piece I had cut out of the deck and leveled it so that, when cured, the deck would again appear intact. I am assuming that the resin will not run straight through into the cabin, in which case you need tape and a piece of plastic to block the leak.
Bob,
The balsa core is a consistent thickness throughout -- except at the edges, i.e. near the caprail. I agree with the use of unthickened epoxy as the first step; it tends to run into the spaces where the deck may have delaminated (delam can exist even if the core is dry -- these are production boats).
Epoxy thickened with filler is great for sealing off the repair and when smeared into an undercut in the seam you've cut, strengthens the joint. Coring material (marine plywood, airex, balsa) weighs less, is less expensive, and is easier to install than a glass mat build up in my strictly amateur opinion.
--Dave
Here is what I did with #45 last year;
the core was completely gone from the cockpit forward on the starboard side and the entire foredeck , the balsa was like tuna in the can .
the foam is called wescore , it is a foam filled honey comb .
After putting new core in , the old deck skin went back on then a layer on fresh glass over the whole repair.
here are the photos;
#45 deck
The black is 5200 covering a split in the deck , it felt like a trampoline walking on the STBD side.
Split in foredeck by cowlplate;
The hull had a few dings too!
Another core material that is becoming more common is a polypropylene product called Nida Core.
www.nida-core.com
Several Triton owners have recently used this stuff. It seems to be a good product that creates a stiff deck. I have not used it, but would certainly consider it for the next project.
As with all core materials, though, only time will tell if it is truly the answer or not. One constant in the boating world is that there are few true "miracle" products. The ravages of marine life are tough on almost everything.
Tim
I've heard good things about Nida Core , I used WesCore because I had it left over from a paying job so the price was right .
OK. I am looking into various options for new core material, and how to obtain them. Hoping not to have to drive 70 miles(one way) just to measure for the thickness, do any of you recall the thickness of the material you used? Mike, it looked like that WesCore was one piece, obviously flexible enough to conform to the slight curve of the deck. I am looking at getting nidacore,but that may take a while. If using a plywood, can anyone tell me if it also goes in one piece, or in many smaller pieces? How small? other thoughts? Thanks again!
Ply would be my last choice with balsa coming before it , after all , in some well maintained boats the balsa has lasted 40 years now . The water travels faster through ply .
Go to ;
www.fgci.com
They sell all the cores and will ship anywhere.
Nida-Core comes in 13mm , 16mm & 20mm ;
price ranges from $45 to $58 for 28sf .
I used 9mm & 12mm and had to do some shaving with both .
Nida core is polypropylene. Wes core is what??
I need to do a small, God I hope small, repair under the port lifeline fitting. The foredeck there is too soft. The area is only about 1 foot by 8". of course I have niightmares that the mush is much more extensive, thus the reason for this procrastination, something I am very good at.
If I'm understanding all this, its ok to use epoxy/glass for a small repair but if it is large a core material should be used??
And, bear with me, this repair stuff is new, though I lived aboard for many years and sailed her for many years, I have to say I was spoiled, a real sea princess. Any thing difficult, and my honey did it. And by difficult, I mean if a tool was involved or anything that used 2-parts, solvents, etc.!!!!
Now, I'll see if I have the muster to do what all you are doing. In the meantime, I'm looking for a "Sven" too. But he's no where to be found. But I'm looking hard.
:cool:
This site documents a recore job from underneath on a San Juan.
http://personal.monad.net/~catamount/Quasar/part1.html
Regarding Core issues, I have replaced core from inside and out,small
areas and large. I have never been able to salvage a large enough piece
of inner or outer skin to be worth the bother of reinstalling. as for the best way to
tackle the job is to go right at it,work fast and with purpose.
With this in mind I feel that the best way to attack the core is from the outside. With
a forty year old balsa-cored boat water intrusion is an inevitable fact of life. To do this
kind of work, with the dust associated with it, inside a small boat is to large a price
to pay for some old, worn down, though original , no-skid texture.
I recommend determining the boundaries of the problem from the inside useing a 1/4"
drill bit and a 1" hole saw for a larger look. Locate the area on the out side by drilling holes through the deck.
Useing a battery powered circular saw make cuts about 1-2" apart over the entire effected
area. Save these strips as they make good epoxy stirrers. With a good heavy scraper, that looks
like a putty knife but with a thicker blade and handle, chisel out the strips with a hammer.
You can go wild, providing you don't damage the inner skin, in the big outdoors, with
gravity as your friend, without physical contortions. The outer skin that you will be rebuilding
will be thicker than the inside layer and therefore a little more expensive. But with the repair time
cut in better than half, due mainly to the working conditions, is negligable.
Now to get your deck pretty again after your core and skin are sanded smooth and fair,
basically a no brainer, paint your deck. Barrier coat can be used here as a high build primer.
It sticks well and forms a tough, waterproof, tie coat. Next you will think about paints.
I initially used single part urethane on my deck. I added sheen reducer and glass balls.
It came out looking good but wore over the five years I've had it.
When I recored my entire cockpit, I had to repaint. I used some left over barrier coat
which was really nice as a hi-build, sandable primer and then finish coated with three coats,
rolled, of Interlux, Inter-Deck. This paint goes on like a dream is already flat and has the grit
in it. The grit is very fine and very effective( see Practical Sailor recent issue). Once you paint,
its easy to go back in from the top again. Once you've done it, top repair, I think you will be
hard pressed to find a good reason to work inside again.
Cheers B.
Commander #215
I did a 2 1/2 foot by one foot triangle on the port foredeck of 376 yesterday afternoon. Was 75 degrees and sunny in Houston--this is our time of year to be outdoors. Anyway, I'll vote for doing the job from the outside. And I have to admit, I also "attacked it" and didn't dwell on the fact that I was sawing into my boat. A friend just did a patch on his J22 from inside, and he said it was awful. I think he has resin in his hair he is trying to pass off as no. 10 strength hair gel. After only doing this once, I thought the toughest part of the job was pulling free the part of the deck that was still dry and attached to the balsa core (about a 3 inch piece). I also used a small 3" battery operated circular saw, several batteries needed for the whole job. Used the 9mm core from GCI, and it was the exact thickness for the foredeck area. I put in an extra layer of cloth on the botton layer since there were a couple of spots that were pretty thin (haven't seen many places on my Ariel where you can find thin fiberglass!). Put the cut-out piece back on top after wetting out the core, and then held it down with a couple of bricks--- first taped off the edges of the cut deck piece and around the cut-out (forgot this step). Maybe its beginner's luck, but its flush. Will have to sand off the excess resin at the cut mark. Again, the hardest part of the whole surgical operation was getting the deck off of the dry core. Otherwise, it wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be, and I'm a fiberglass amature.
Think how much money you folks saved by doing it yourself.
This guy paid over $8000 to have the work done on a Pearson Flyer. Doesn't even look like the job was that extensive.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dellin...%20Repairs.htm
Has anyone had the experience of replacing the balsa core
with foam from both sides of the cabin forward to the very tip of
the bow. I m looking for information on what it costs on average
from a boatyard and doing it on one's own.
Sprite:)
Click on the "search" button at the top of the page and enter "delamination." There have been a number of posts, but I'm not sure if they have discussed cost.
It appears to me that yard costs vary by geographic area, so you might want to contact a couple of local yards for estimates. The do-it-yourself costs are (obviously) the materials needed for the job. Your local chandlery may be able to give you a good estimate of the materials needed and their cost.
Ahhh, the old tuna salad on toast.
I would expect the cost of a professional repair at a boatyard to exceed the value of the boat. I would get estimates, just so the misery of tackling this project is tempered by the knowledge of how much money you've saved.
In addition to the multiple threads on this site, there is gobs of material on the internet. The basic procedure is all the same.
One step by step description can be found on Tim's website
http://www.triton381.com/recore.html
I did it to #45, and if I did it for someone I'd say about $2500 to $3500 (depending on degree of finish) is what I would charge .
I found one article I had saved on a core repair done by a boatyard on a Pearson Flyer.
Although the job didn't seem to involve that much square footage, the cost was $8000.
Click on the photos for them to show up.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dellin...%20Repairs.htm
In this job, the deck core was repaired from underneath. I think it would be exceedingly difficult and uncomfortable to do it that way in the forepeak area.
Commander Pete,
Just looked at the link. The boatyard's price would probably be in
that vicinity. The work would be on top though. I have water stains on my portside on the inside and the core is completely gone. There is air and no balsa left. I talked with the boatyard
and they said they would have to professionally cut it to make
sure the pieces fell back into place but they said that I could save
money by removing the remains of the balsa myself. I am not
sure how much of the interior will have to be pulled out due to
lack of maintenance and water stains. I figure that it would probably be safer to eliminate the balsa on the starboard side as well. It has been hell anyway, I have removed deck hardware from the front and back most was original the previous owner used galvanized screws. When I was working near front taking off an anchor chock on the starboard side water came down on me, while using bolt cutters. The previous owner put the pipe for the anchor chain on the portside. To make matters worse he put the holes in the deck and did not seal the edges with epoxy or sealing the deck fittings with silicone or any decent bedding compound. So I m kinda thinking of taking the plunge for safety sake. As ugly as that sounds. Do you think that when I get through with this double mastectomy the boat will structurally be okay or better.
John
Rotten balsa core is not so much a safety/structural issue. There's plenty of boats sailing around with mushy decks. Damage to the plywood inside where the chainplates attach would be a greater concern.
But, you can only tackle one job at a time. Although I haven't done a recore of this scale, I think that:
1) You have to rig up some type of shelter first.
2) Don't pussyfoot around with half-measures, Dremel tools, whimpy sanders, 80 grit, etc. The job will just take longer. Go after it with a vengence--circular saw, angle grinder, flat nail bar for the core removal, and similar heavy equiptment.
3) Cutting off the skin doesn't require professional assistance. Just set the depth of the circular saw so that you don't pierce the bottom skin.
4) You'll be painting on a new nonskid surface at the end. You'll also need to paint the surrounding white areas since they will get smeared with epoxy.
You will do a better job than the boatyard. You can't hurt the boat. Any mistakes can be either repaired with epoxy or ground down. In the end, the boat will be as good as new.
Commander Pete
I want to thank you for the moral support. The boat is in
inside storage due to it leaking plus I have taken out the windows. I also have water and electricity. I have taken out the chainplates and almost all the deck fittings. They look original. I just recently had the back chainplate made, doubling the thickness and adding two bolts.The side that definitely has to be replaced is leaking through the chainplates and had corroded the
bolts and ate away at a bronze bolt connected to a grounding wire for the mast on the portside the wire was not effected. Should the new chainplates be doubled in thickness as well.
Getting back to the deck, what should be the pattern for
cutting it in sections. When you cut it way what should be the
depth of the circular saw, is there any preparation that you
have to do after removing the balsa and what kinds of problems
should you be aware of on the lower skin where it has been
effected by water. The depth of foam what should I be looking
for in terms of thickness does it vary and what types of foam
vincell was recommended to me. I have not worked with epoxy
before what should be the mixture John
Oh Boy. I haven't had to do a recore on my Commander. I've just helped out on a different model boat. So I'm not the right guy to give detailed advice (Like that ever stopped me before).
Mike had posted some explanation and photos around here sometime back.
I'll think about it some and get back to you.
In the meantime, here's Bill Sandifer's article on recoring his Ariel. He did it while the boat was in the water. Unbelievable.
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm
Okay...here's my first ever post. I am in the throes of resurrecting #105 and the next job is going to be the recore of the ENTIRE deck. Earlier repairs have either failed or are failing and will probably make the whole project harder, but with the encouragement I have gotten by reading this forum and the likes of Tim Lackey's site, I think the best way to go about it is to just dig in and do the best I can. I have removed all the deck hardware along with a good bit of paint...enough to convince me that the upper layer of the deck is probably not worth the effort to save. I would end up grinding off all of the non-skid anyway, so I intend to put down some core material (Nidacore or similar) and then glass over the whole shooting match, re-doing the non-skid when I finish. A lot of work, I know, but worth it in peace of mind and pride when it's all over and floating. I am really tired of sailing in my backyard.
BTW when I tried to go after the soft spots in the cabin roof with the circular saw the other day, I got the shakes so bad I couldn't hold the saw...had to go inside and try to regain my composure. I think I can go on now.
First off, let's hope Mike chimes in and you can ask him. specific questions.
I've done just a smidgeon on 338 digging bigger hatches in and replacing a chunk in way of the mast step on the roof. The obvious way is to attack thru the top. There have been others who have replaced their core from Inside.
My observation is that the inside layer of fiberglass is very thin, and if I was replacing the whole deck I would do it in small sections so as not to loose the camber in the deck. I might consider making templates at one foot stations back from the bow of the deck as it now exists
The top is at least 1/8" thick. varying to thicker where it turns a corner.
I also tore out a piece that was in good condition. It was a bear, literally delaminating the glass mat from the piece of deck where the old polyester had soaked into the endgrain of the balsa. Was really impressed. Because the plastic soaked into the balsa it makes scraping the balsa off the thin inner layer something you have to do really careful.
Also, on the cabin anyway, the balsa varies in thickness, like they had to do some sanding to get it to take the curves. The decks I guess are more predictable....
There isn't anything you can do to your boat that you can't fix with a good grade of epoxy. So layout some lines in the form of a grid, say, and set the carbide saw blade 1/4" on your 5 1/2" skilsaw and cut out a square. In an easy place. See if it prys up easy with your blue prybar.
Voila, you have begun. If you can't stand it, glue it back and sell the boat. No way. So check with Mike and Tim on their procedure. Find out where they started on the deck, how much they deconstructed at a time. and so forth. For instance, if I had to do it I might ask Mike if removing a one foot band of foredeck across from port to starboard and after cleaning it out reolacing it with baltec or Divinycell, whatever, then epoxying the deck back on is a good way to start. You'ld be likely to keep the camber that way. Then repeat with another section next to the new repair.
When you are into it you'll invent your own method and tell us about it!!!
(Be prepared, tho, if there is any good wood in there you'll have a hell of a time prying the deck off.):mad:
Go to the NTA site (www.tritonclass.org) and look at the "project gallery" pictures of Jeff Maher's Triton #30 recore project...take really special note of what he did with shoring up inside before cutting anything to maintain the curvature. Important detail! Jeff did same on all of the areas he worked.
I'm just in the process of cutting the skins off of Triton 397, and have found the skilsaw is not the best tool for the job. Maher used a cutoff disc in an angle grinder, I'm using a cutoff disc in a die grinder in similar fashion.
The voids under the edges get packed in with epoxy thickened with microfibers--not balloons--and before placing the new core it is wetted out and then a layer of the microfiber-thickened epoxy is troweled into the cavity as if one were doing stucco or laying tile. Important to have a few reilef holes so the excess material has somewhere to squeeze out.
James Baldwin did the 'lay neww glass' method on his Triton, ATOM, and sounds like he would never do it that way again...it does sound like an awful lot of work. By reusing the origianl skins you will save a great deal of time and expense, plus have a better guide for the finished deck contour. The skins go back down with the same treatment I described for the core and with a few relief holes. Again, taking a llok at the pics of Jeff's Triton, we can see the nicest way of getting even clamping pressure. if there are edges or corners sticking up. a few judiciously placed sheeetrock screws will do the trick. Make very sure they are square-drives and very sure you have waxed them to death with paste wax so they will come back out!
Never shy with opinion,
Dave
Hey , it's Uncle Mikey checking in,
I have done lots of core work on dozens of boats, Pearsons, Columbias, C&C's, Southern Cross, etc. and after many hours of the "Big Fun" I use a DeWalt industrial Dremel tool clone ( drywall cutout tool to an electrician ) , I use a bit for cutting ceramic tile , solid carbide .
If I were doing another Ariel foredeck, I would cut the whole thing out at once again ( never lost any camber ) I would stay with Wescore and save and reuse the old deck skin ( it still has the shape )
Just go around the edge of the deck with the cutter.
I use a pre-thickened 1:1 epoxy to bed the core, available from ;
www.fgci.com
Use Shurform tools to work the core down after it is glued in place. Grind the back of the old deck with a 36 grit disk o remove the ridges and gunk . Trowel on some more of the fgci epoxy using a notched (tile-setter's) tool and squish the old deck in place. Fill in the holes and gaps with the epoxy. Grind the whole deck with 36 or 40 grit and lay on some cloth set in epoxy or vinylester resin ( I prefer Vinylester ). Sand it , fill it fair it and sand again . Layout your non-skid pattern ( I like to use Interlux particles in polyurethane primer ), paint it on and finish as you please .
That is it in a nutshell , it is 10% brains and 99% grunt work ( you'll only use 1% of the alotted brain power )
Mike G
Capt. Greg.
Looks like the Tritons have done the deck core every way possible.
And so have the Ariels. The real problems have to do with the choice of materials and the experience you have with epoxy. (The general and correct concensus is Not to use poleyester because it won't 'glue' new work to old.)
I would not use fir plywood as a core material - the quality is bad, it's full of voids and laminating skins or 1/4" stuff down would be even more of a problem with voids and potlife. APA plywood is junk, even marine grade.
I would support the fordeck with thin ply and battens inside using a bottle jack or two Very Gently, just snug, befor I cut into the deck up top. No force at all - one you cut you don't want the inside to be forced up in any way. 338, perhaps because it was late in the Ariel run, or late in the day, has a very thin inner layer of mat that I feel would be too flimsey to keep integrity if the whole foredeck was removed. Especially if you worry the surface smooth with grinding and sanding - or a knee.
Personally, I would do the foredeck completely. Then the sides. because of the weight of the coach roof. I think I'd want the front of the coach roof supported by the new composit deck. The strength of this type of costruction comes primarily from the skin. The deck composit is of primary importance in the integrity of the boat. I have argued in the past here that even the two main bulkheads do not support the deck structure. I would. Note down some measurements from the inside deck to the sole as a redundant check.
In case someone hasn't made this clear: I would juice the work with plain runny epoxy with a brush befor laying down the baltec or foam which you will probably spread with a thin coat of thickened epoxy.
If you feel you have to go with interior support befor you start, you might bend up some easily bent battens into the curve with a squirt of yellow glue between the layers and let it set. I haven't done this, but I think I would. Two or three of these temporary beams held up by a single two X four and a jack would support the aft part of the foredeck while you work the top. The front half of the deck with its factory piece of ply glassed in for the mooring cleat is probably not going to move, much.:D
Good luck! Take photos! Let us see your torture!:cool:
Hearing all people have to say: here, the Triton Forum, the wife...I think I will go after the deck a piece at a time. I was getting myself a little overwhelmed by the prospect of the poor old sweetie out there in the yard with her innards showin'. Bad enough she doesn't have any paint on her topsides anymore. Scabby and ugly is the order of the day out there and it's getting depressing to look at.
I really need to keep costs down, bein' an old retired guy. Sometimes I get kinda lonely feelin' like I the only one who can't afford stuff. It's good to know there are others, especially here, to whom "expensive" can mean hundreds instead of thousands.
Capt. Greg,
Do it with polyester, then. At least you have Don Casey in your corner. You might even do it with ply if you can soak the hell out of it as you lay it in. Punky ply, one could argue is perfect because the polyester will soak in good.
Remember (hope I'm not patronizing) epoxy sticks to polyester (after a suitable cure time) not the other way around. So you can start with the poly and fix things up with the expensive.
E h ! Go out and start cutting! I realy do believe a deckcore could be done with polyester. The core has to be compatible,
Good stuff here.
I've got a question. When you cut out the deck, can you follow the outline of the nonskid? If you have to go wider, how much wider?
The core gets thinner towards the sides. How would you handle any mushy core beyond where you cut?
The link below is just an article I had come across on foam cores. Its too technical for me, but somebody might find it interesting.
http://boatdesign.net/articles/foam-core/index.htm
C'pete,
Good questions!
It would indeed be good to know where the balsa peters out. If it is in the vacinity of the anti-slip pattern on the deck, seems that would be an excellent line to cut to. Will aid in hiding the join of old to new if the old anti-slip pattern is reused. Good idea. What happens to the balsa so close to the toe-rail? Maybe you'ld have to cut a little further in? Away from the toe?
I've been preparing the coachroof hatch for it's new Bomar. Required that the up flange be cut away and the hole made larger. You get to see at lot of sideview balsa core this way. As I mentioned earlier, the core varies in thickness around the square cutout, no doubt because ofthe compound curves in this wonderfully sculpted area.
Decided, that instead of drilling larger holes to be filled with epoxy as the anti-leak 'gasket' protection of the core for the multitude of fastenings needed for the hatch, decided I would evacuate the balsa in a 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" deep channel all round. Different thickness made it a challenge.
Used a 80 grit flexible cut off on the Makita (because it was thin, got hot and wasn't very efficient.)
A 4" 36 grit cloth-backed sanding disk on an arbor in the drill (because it is slower.)
Used the dremel tool with various burrs and bits (generally disappointing, but it got the corners emptied, and the dremel very hot.)
Used a 4" orange nylon string flapper wheel that scoured the inside surfaces of the upper and lower frp of tenacious wood. Didn't have to worry about removing the edge any. Don't believe that leaving a bit of wood in there on the inner surfaces of the frp would make any difference after filling.
Best was the sanding disk. The grit on the outer-edge did all the digging and was thin enuf to get in the norrows Being somewhat bendy gave some leeway in holding the tool. Didn't have to worry about the smooth side cutting something it shouldn't. That old frp is very hard stuff.
I think that might be a way to clear the balsa out of the cut at the toe rail when during a recore. You can reverse the disk and have that 'safe' side to depend on. Safer than a small sawblade, eg, because you can correct your working angle befor you've committed a lamentable desecration. There probably are other 'wheels' out there, like wire (they're either too flimsey or too aggressive) that maybe would work better.
For somebody planing to recore and reglue the deck back, it would be great to know eactly where the old core thins down at the rail. Make the job that much more FUN!
Some thought IMCO has to be given to what is the best method of joining the new deck to the C'hannel at the side. I admit I haven't studied the Recorer's ramificate on this important seam. Probably involve folding some wetted-out cloth or light x-mat into the groove with deliberate overlapping onto the core itself top and bottom. Divinycell foam can be carved down nearly to a knife edge with coarse sanding cloth.
[I would use baltec, by the way, because most of it is still pretty good on 338 after 40 yrs, and I will waterproof the deck as best I can with the most expensive coatings known in the civilized world. The best modern house paints are guaranteed for longer than most marriages last these days. That's good enough for me]
Nothing anyone tells me is ever perceived as patronizing...I have never done any of this stuff before so each step is onto uncharted ground and I appreciate all the advice I get. I will use epoxy because it is what I am more familiar with and because it seems to be the concensus choice.
I started on the coach roof last night making small exploratory holes under where the handrails were. Wet, squishy balsa was the order of the evening. Wet and squishy, but still pretty well stuck to the lower skin. All in all, not as traumatic as I first imagined. I hardly got the shakes at all...thanks for the confidence builders!
My 2 cents' worth for the day...after spending yesterday working on the core job...
Definitely need to brace like mad. Lots of thin ply and bits of 2x4 and 1x2. Lots. Coachroof is especially critical...the best pics I've found of this is Jeff Maher's boat on the NTA site.
Jeff used a fish gaff sharpened to a chisel point to get out the balsa left in the cavity. I reworked the core in a Ranger 23 once, too...my advice, LEAVE NO BALSA ANYWHERE! If you leave it and it's OK today, if it's no good in 5 years you will be SOL for doing anything about it.
Conventional wisdom is to cut about 2-1/2" from the edge of things, and so far I would concur. To re-tab, Ebb has the idea just right, after it is all kicked off you grind a trough a couple inches wide and pretty much down to the point where it breaks thru at it's deepest (it's a dished trough, right?), then tab it with layeres of stitch mat.
Epoxy is definitely the stuff of choice...if nothing else, you want/need the working time. Use slow hardener!
Core Material is a topic of some debate, but the Triton guys who've used foam materials have for the most part been unhappy later...it doesn't work out well over time, it seems...James Baldwin has reported no problems, but he 'glassed new and heavy over the top, with much frustration and effort. Some use marine ply, some balsa, some Nida Core which is a PVC honeycomb material. I don't want wood back in there if I can help it, for obvious reasons. Ply is way heavy, and the deck weight is fairly high up...I like stability and performance. Balsa is very spendy anymore, and I don't want it anyhow. I chose to use the Nida because guys have had excellent results, and the material was cheap at less than 60.00 a sheet. You can do an entire Triton on 3 sheets! It does, however, soak up resin like nobody's business...figure 5 to 7 GALLONS, plus hardener, on the Triton job. The cost in the end is a bit higher than balsa, and the weight a bit less than ply. Jeff's advice was to wait SEVERAL DAYS before removing the clamping weights (bricks) and inner bracing, and that the decks don't go full stiff for about a week...but that when finished it is STIFF! My kinda deal.
If you haven't already, check out also Tim Lackey's excellent website at www.triton381.com to see his recore job and detailed commentary from his working over of Triton 381, GLISSANDO. Tim used ply, and a bit different approach to a couple elements of the job, but most of it is analagous to any material you might choose. Probably the best "how-to" of a recore I've seen on the web.
Forget the nonskid...you're going way farther than saving that. Your water channels will be (re)created/defined when you lay on your new nonskid. This is not a job that leaves just small scars.
On my Ranger, I used these granules that System 3 sold in a quart can...about 6 cans' worth. Punched holes in the lid to make a shaker, masked my outlines, rolled out a thin coat of resin, and shook on until you couldn't see deck. Vacuumed off the next day, sidfted/filtered the excess for reuse, went again at next area, etc. Once it was painted it looked like some kind of a factory job...but it was a lot of work. Triton 397 gets an easier treatment that I learned from my buddy...mix up a bunch of balloons into the resin, trowel it on with a spreader as evenly as you can, and as it starts to go off pull up a texture with a wall texture paint roller. Makes for a very aggressive nonskid that looks pretty good under paint. Falling on it might really suck, but it is not uncomfortable to sit on. Looks more fishboat than yacht, but I think of old Pearsons as a sort of industrial chic anyway...sort of a cross between traditional wood boat and early-50's Grumman aircraft industrial. Just my aesthetic. Also easy and cheap!
Last thought---tools. Most important tool I am using is a DA sander with a 6 inch pad. Jobs like this are what air tools are made for...don't kid yourself. I've got a couple real nice 5-inch electric random orbit sanders and they don't begin to do what a proper DA does. Spend the $$$ and get a real, professional tool...China's finest don't make it for this one. You need LOTS of air to run one of these...over 10 CFM. Without air tools, I'd have no hope of ever finishing this job in my lifetime<G>! You can knock off ALL of the old nonskid that you need to in about an hour with 60 grit, and it will be nicely done! When most of it is gone, just evenly feather the edges down into the old white areas. Slightly increased crown on deck, and smooth. Remember not to go too nuts, as you'll have plenty of sanding/grinding and fairing to do after the skins are back down and it's a lot easier to have the meat left on the 'glass and fair by cutting down on it as much as possible to minimize filling, than to fill like mad forever and ever in order to have something to cut down.
It feels real good when you get that first skin off!
Dave
Capt. Greg,
Seems like you have a real job just getting all the info (or 'opinions' as someone once said) into some kind of plan.
When you open up the coachroof let us know where the balsa starts thining, ok? Over the windows, and the hatch logs for that matter. If you can, post photos! It all looks professional if you vacuum first!
Shoot first, pay the consequences later. There is always a way out of any problem, you may not have forseen it, but that makes it interesting!
If you don't feel like you have the bucks to cop out to technologic hype(viz e poxy) then by all means put another method together. There NEEDS to be a cheaper fix than this corporate ripoff that epoxy is.
And look at it another way: you don't have to make your upgrade last 40 years, so use pinewood strips if you want, and roofing tar. And polyester is just fine for this application because its almost all new work - if you have to cover it with a layer of fiberglass, so what? You grind and sand til it looks good - then you sand and paint until it's sm o o o th as a baby's bottom. The spirit of your boat will show you the way, it don't lie. Really.
If you are anywhere near my age you already know it doesn't matter. Nothing matters.
Just being with this beautyful boat means you won't make any mistakes. Just little ones. And you will be forgiven for anything you ever did when you put your baby back in the water!!!
Gee, sounds like religeon. Better git out there befor they pass the plate.
[Greg, I must add here that I have NOT used polyester for the recore. That IS merely opinion. Second, the epoxy I use is very expensive but IMCO a much safer material than polyester with its styrene content and the acetone you'ld probably use in conjunction: BAD mothers. 100% solids epoxy is low odor, and extremely easy to use with normal precautions - it makes you an expert. Alcohol for clean up, or white vinegar. The only unknown with epoxy is its set up time, you have to sweat that part, but you know that if you've got the proportions correct and it sets up, you can grind away any mistake and just do it over. The next epoxy will bond just fine.]
Greg
Boy, I'm gettin all excited just thinking about the recore job ahead of you. 'Don't know how far Appleton is from here but I'm ready to pack a lunch and head out! Form the limited probing I've done and the few(but large)holes 113 has in her decks it seems that the bulk of the coring goes up to within an inch or 1 1/4" from the botton of the toe rail. That's where I'd cut. Seems no matter where you start everybody agrees that the digging and scraping doesn't come easy. Dave is right, brace her up on the inside and I'd use construction site refuse because you won't really need anything longer than 3' and who cares if the 2 by 4 is twisted,warped or straight. It'll really stink because I know how nice it is to just go below to sit and take it all in :p And yes, Tim's site gives a real good 'how to' or 'how I did' lesson in recoring. I've bought several books and in essence it all comes back to what Tim has on his site for free(but now I know).
Here's a hole in 113's side deck about even with the middle of the aft main cabin port. The white sealant is now gone and the core was pretty much directly behind it in this photo. Hope this helps. Tony G
What a strange hole!
Must have been for a flower pot.
Good stuff Dave and Tony,
Looking at that hole at the toe rail.....We're not seeing any old balsa core right? So let's say you got solid 1 1/2" plus in from the toe rail. I'ld want to make the cut thru the top then further in than where the original factory molded antislip stops. If you can't make the joint by poking glass into a groove or excavated channel in the composit then your locking seam has to be the dished out stripe on the top spanning old and new that you fill with glass cloth and/or mat. Of course this is done after the new deck is on and hard. Minimum width 4" if done with epoxy. If the inside has been prepped, I would add at least one 4" strip of heavy X-matt inside under the join. IMCO.
I know that if I ended up with a checkerboard of original deck pasted back onto the new core, even if I used epoxy thruout, I would add a layer or two of one piece glass from toerail to toerail over the whole deck. Light stuff, just to make sure that I had skin integrity in the reconstructed composit.
[There is another concern here (Mike and I posted on this, way in the past) and there is so much on this subject that this may be very redundant:
You read experts who caution not to glass over gell coat. I've done a lot of epoxy filling below the waterline that has been faired on to (well-grinded) gelcoat. It was pointed out that any mold-release or wax was now gone after 40 years. Not having done it, it must be nearly impossible to grind all the gellcoat and molded tred off the deck. It is the gellcoat on the boat that stress cracks and crumbles in some instances. So the question is: how much do you have to remove to ensure that the new work is not going to peel in the future? I'm inclined to believe that if you grind down to the translucent green and the white stuff left seems to be bonded to the laminate that it is ok to consider this a bondable surface.
What is the consensus on this?]
Mike,
I have the mushy stuff on the portside on the walkway to the
side of the cabin. I don't like the starboard walkway or the front a
head of the cabin. It seems to be leaking through the chainplates
and the bureau and wall seem to have water damage and I will probably be replacing all of it just to play it safe. I haven't
really seen anything with the cabin roof is it better to nail
it anyway, or forget it ? What should I be looking for in the interior skin in the water damaged area is it fiberglass or
plywood should it be replaced and with what material.
John
P.S. The anchor chain pipe fitting I am moving to a more forward position on the starboard side but I have the old hole and it's
four inche's by 21/2 inches. What should be the procedure of filling it in. It's kinda big?
:confused:
Ebb, Tony et al. Thanks for all the advice. I think the deck job is gonna have to wait until springtime. I don't want to get halfway into it and have the weather turn sour. I think I will just finish the outside of the hull and then work on the interior over winter. I have removed most of the paint from the hull above the waterline and I'm starting to repair dings and errant scraper gouges before fairing and painting. The list gets longer and longer.
When I repair the deck I will be using epoxy...I will be using the tools I have and replace the core with whatever seems right when I reach that point. I don't want to have to do that job over so I will do it right, however, "right" is a pretty conditional word. Like Ebb says, working on the boat is an end itself. It's theraputic...all that sanding and scraping. Doesn't require much thought so your mind can wander: imagining wind and wave, warm sandy beaches, midnight watches, distant shores...makes a guy kinda drooly and misty eyed.
The whole thing is theraputic...sanding, scraping, fairing, planning, imagining. All part of the process. I'll og ooutside tomorrow and take some pictures of the messes I've made so far.
The epoxy I use is good down to 40 degrees F. You can warm the boat up inside with a heater, Especially with this deck job. Cover with black plastic (won't stick) to help it kick off.
Check out the www.epoxyproducts.com site. This guy flogs many vendors, so he's not commited to any manufacturer's system. He's very opinionated, the site is a gas! A little eccentric, which I'm more friendly with. Here is where you learn not to trust and use adulterated epoxies that you can buy at your local seveneleven marine store. He's a lot cheaper than retail. He'll answer your questions. He sells epoxies that will set up under water, So he may have a laminating version (thin) that will work where you are.
Which Spring are you talking about?:(
Hi, all...
I was getting ready to cut the side deck skins today, and started thinking about the rigidity and shape of the hull...obviously for best performance we want as uniform a shape as we can get, and it suddenly struck me that the deck makes up quite a bit of rigidity! Another fellow I know has an identical Triton out in the yard on an identical bunk. His is of course assembled, making for much more weight up high, and on top of that the stick has been lowered for transport and secured to the pulpit, coachroof and pushpit. Reason would have it that his boat should be flexier than mine, as while some of my interior has been cut away I still have the majority of structural bulkheads in place. Wrong!!!
I have had occasion to A/B the two, and mine is floppy. Has to be the decks. There was almost nowhere you could step in a cored area that the deck didn't oilcan badly if you weigh 170 pounds like I do, or in places if you weigh 55 pounds like Junior!
If the hull is out of shape and I recore well, the hull is going to be forever locked in that distorted shape by the newly rigid and sound decks .
Point being, that if the boat isn't level, some distortion is going to happen in the hull from the weight on the jack pads...not on an old Pearson, huh? Guess again!
Bear in mind that the hull thickness is not near so huge as we roll up above the keel root, and gets much thinner(!) up by the deck/hull joint. Check out the pics from the deck removal at Tim Lackey's Triton Daysailor site!
So, armed with a long level and my smallest, lightest, most patient helper (who is also 7 years old) I set about to deal with it. The question comes to mind just what and where to trust on the boat. We set the level across the toerails up forward and found that the boat needed to come up almost an inch at the rail to make it right. Since I have the coamings off now, we laid the level across the cockpit sills and found the reading differed only slightly. Tried a shorter level across the lips of the cockpit locker openings and found it to concur. Further investigation showed that the Stbd. toe rail is in fact about 1/16" SHORTER than the one to port(!) and that accounted for the near total of the discrepancy.
Now, the question also begs as to just how swell the uniformity of the hull shape might or might not have been held at the time the deck went on...they really pumped these boats out, so who knows. I just didn't want to compound whatever problems may be there.
My boat is set up on a 6-pad bunk, and because of the number of people who are sometimes working at one time, I have a v-head jack under the bow and two extra jacks placed well aft to minimize the shimmy of the bunk and oilcanning (well, as much oilcanning as glass this heavy will do as it flexes) of the hull. I had a fair ways to go, so I patiently used all the screws (I found that the most significant pushes are from the aft) and cranked it upright in small and gentle increments. With the boat leaning, I was able to go ahead and loosen the pads I needed to tilt to until they really rattled and then a bit. Took forever. Started with the kid and the level up forward, then checked it aft.
I found a few interesting things. One was that no matter how uniformly I had worked, the boat was out of rack end-to-end by about a 1/4 bubble! Wasn't that way when I started. Hmmm.
I dropped all the pads but the v-head and the two aft jacks, then reset. Closer, but now the whole boat was tilting again! Squared it up one more time, then reset the pads. Real close. Right on. Now to make sure the pads were all bearing evenly...I have a drill for this, which is to drop and reset the center pads first, the bow (obviously with v-head in place) second, the stern last. As I backed off the stbd. center, I was informed that we weren't perfectly level anymore. But...the boat had leaned the OTHER WAY FROM THE SIDE I'D JUST BACKED OFF!
None of the pads were gorilla tight, mind you. One bow and one opposite stern were a bit tighter than the rest. That's all it took to make a "pressure wave" in the hull that did this! We went to the 3-point balance again, then brought up bow, center, stern, far stern. Whenever the bows were tight in this process I would slack and reset the v-head, as well. Went back thru again, Jr. watching the level with Jedi concentration. No movement. Rechecked at the bow, and if we allow for the unequal rail dimensions, we are off about 3/64! Not Bad! Just for grins, I got junior down out of the cockpit and then released the pressure evenly on all of the jack pads. The whole Triton will stand up on the keel blocking and the v-head! Reset the jacks again carefully and we went up to check the level fore and aft. Now, I fib not one bit here, with Jessica as my witness, not one bit of detectible change had occurred!
I also found a couple of other interesting things...when we started leveling, it was easy to push the boat up with the jackscrews, but as we got closer to dead level it became much harder. Also, perhaps very telling as to how much the hull does indeed flex, as you get nearly dead level, ALL the pads will rattle loose all of a sudden! I don't see how this can happen unless the whole hull shape shifts due to the weight all bearing straight down on the keel properly.
Anyway, I hope that this is all of some help and/or interest to anyone who is planning to recore or do any other structural/bulkhead work. As the thicknesses are pretty much identical between the two boats and the Ariel much smaller in surface area, I would think it would be less of a concern for Ariel/Commander...but still worth checking.
Dave
If you could have checked the boat when it left the factory nearly 40 years ago , you would have found it not to be "square and level". Rarely is a fiberglass , or any other boat material, ever symetrical new or old .(Now it is possible to use computer controlled routers to fair a mold, but very pricey.)
I have seen boats that were an inch and a half wider ( from the centerline) on port over starboard. In other words , don't fret it unless you can see it by the unaided eye ( no levels or strings stretched tight ).
The original molds were made from a 'plug', made by men from wood, lots of room for error. When the mold is pulled from the plug, more error, and when the hull is pulled from the mold, even more error. Then it is all assembled by minimum wage workers, think they really cared how 'square' the boat was. Not until the bulkheads were in and the deck installed does the boat become rigid.
Other than the mold makers and a couple of supervisors, everyone is minimum wage in the glass shops.
Add on to this that Pearson was pulling several hulls a day from the same molds with the same workers and quality control is not what you would like to think it was ( and these were some of the good boats being made at the time )
Oh yeah, this is in the days before OSHA and the EPA , so respirators are nil and everyone is high as a kite from the fumes ( that's why some of the workers worked so cheap ), could add a little more error?
So 1/16 of an inch is a joke , forgetaboutit !
Dave
Thanks for doing the gruntwork on that one:D I've always been super paranoid about the hull changing shape on me as I remove more and more of the interior. That is why we stopped chopping where we did(main bulkhead & v-berth) and will rebuild before we evacuate any more of the original interior. I was hoping to get away with using a garden hose water level on the scribed waterline to level and then block the trailer solid. Follow that up with pad readjustment and THEN start to lay the new tabbing. I guess only time will tell. Tony G
Dave,
How do you know you had the boat 'plumb' before you started to level ?
The only place most manufacturers tried for accurate shape , was at the waterline.
How do you know you dont have 1/16 more or less gelcoat on the toe rail ? or glass , or resin ?
The hull only has it's original shape , when it is still in the mold.
Lots of boats change shape during a haulout and go back to their previous shape when launched. You are supporting on 6 pads of less than 6 sq.ft. total , I bet. The hull is used to being supported by everything below the waterline.
Want better support while out of the water? Take a 1x6 and run it, full length, between the pads & hull, fore and aft. It will even out the load greatly.
Jeez, although I am anything but an expert, I am reminded in this case of fixing the kitchen chair by adjusting the legs...lemme see...a little off this one...uh nope, too much...
Well, the toerail is, I should clarify, visibly taller above the deck one side to the other...that's why we picked a few points to check from. I may not have been real clear in my nomenclature...I was pretty tired. The efforts gone to were to bring the hull vertically "plumb" by "leveling" it athwartships.
My thought, again, is that while I am very aware of the fact a boat changes shape out of the water, I wanted to minimize the distortion caused by the jacks to help the shape be as uniform as possible. The hull shape above the waterline is largely supported by the deck's rigidity...so, rotten deck pretty universally equals a flexier hull. I just didn't want to be doing the deck rebuild in a way that would lock in an unnecesarily deformed shape. It's a sailboat, right? So, the topsides above the waterline become PART OF the effective waterline when the boat is in operation. I have not spent time fairing out the ripples and the roving print-thru for appearance, but for that reason.
One point that I found very interesting, is that the boat is intended to stand vertically on its' keel at haulout...and that anything less than that causes quite a dimensional change in the hull. Similarly, it seems that when the boat IS standing vertically on her keel she is under the least amount of pressure from the jack pads. Literally, as I approached that golden spot the pads all went somewhat loose, including the ones the boat had been inclining towards.
In absence of a semi-reliable choice for a place to plop down a level, I'd say that a guy could feel it pretty well when the hull got vertical. And, if she is standing vertical, you can, as we did, carefully loosen ALL the pads except the v-head until the pads go scuffy-scuffy-wiggle and she'll stand straight up.
It's worth note that a bunk is a flexier situation, no matter how heavy it is built, than blocks and jacks on the ground.
Because of this, I think it is best to check that the boat is "plumb"(or whatever we want to call vertically level) periodically.
The reason this came up in my mind to begin with is that not only is the boat on a bunk, not only have I had to readjust the blocking quite a bit each time the yard have moved her around, but when we had her moved into the building we are now renting she travelled quite a ways across a bumpy yard. The floor in the building is crazy out of plane, so they did some artful shimming under the bunk pads to level it up, and then some leveling of the boat with the jackscrews on their own...overall, she looked pretty good for as caterwompy as the floor is, but I wanted to make sure. Personally, I'm glad I did.
Dave
To plumb the boat, you should ( and it's not easy);
find the centerline.
Stretch 2 strings fore and aft dead on the centerline,one above the other about 1' stem to stern.
Hang a plumb bob.
Adjust the boat until plumb.
Why not a level atwartships? Deck units are not made as carefully as the hull and the mounting of such is a 'close enough,is good enough' job.
If you factory scribed waterline is still there, try a waterlevel.
Its the bulkheads and not the deck that hold the shape of the hull .
What kind of jacks should be used to support the deck, while reconstruction is going on. For example the deck is cut out and the balsa is removed. What should the placement be. I was also
interested in finding out if anyone has used devincell. I was on
the deck of a fellow who had I think a thirty five foot nonsuch 1980. He had a mushy deck of balsa and he replaced it with devinicell with west systems epoxy. I think it was injected into the deck. The deck was solid, has anyone tried this and were
there any pitfalls, I was impressed with it. The reason I am asking is because I've heard about leveling the deck and much about baltec, plywood and various types foam. I had at one time a sample of the stuff. It's grooved does this provide better bonding?
John :eek:
Does anybody read any of this?
I dont think so Ebb, just you, me & the newbies !
Well let's just see Ebb;
When #45 was out of the water for deck repairs, I made no special attempt to support the deck from below , took the upper skin off and crawled, walked & climbed all over her taking no special care for anything.
She didn't move flex or loose any shape or camber to the deck.
Now you guys know why we don't want you hanging around the boatyard while we work on your boat.
Boatyard rates;
$35 per hour
$50 per hour if you watch
$80 per hour if you help
$100 per hour if you and your brother-in-law help
Mike G
Sprite,
It all works, some better than others . Depends on who is used to what. There is nothing wrong with putting balsa back in, hell it worked for 40 years. I just hope I'm around in 40 years to see the decks go mushy again.
Hey Ebb, 8 more posts and I hit 500 .Is there a special badge or something for being so responsive or is it argumentative? Which reminds me of my favorite Monty Python skit.
Hey Mike,
They charge $60.00 just for breathing in the boatyard up here.
All kidding aside it I ve found the board to be helpful. I just pulled up the chain plates and they look like bronze were these original.
My portside suffered a bit of water damage. Where the wall is
should I worry about the bottom part of the deck on that side it's
stained.
Capt. John
Ariel set flat on her keel would be nose down.
Here on the west coast a boat set on hard is done so on a large block, like a 12x12 under her keel just aft of center with an equally large wedge driven in for more support. The front of the boat is supported with a huge sawhorse and another wedge creating some flat. 4 three legged adjustable jack stands strategically placed under the bilges. With these 4 you adjust for balance and make sure the hull is not billowed in by any one, which is easy to do with the screw pads.
If your boat is not completely stripped and if you are not level fore'n'aft or athwartships you still can estimate your levels and of course your centerline.
Two sticks longer than 4 feet with equal lines on them will find ennumerable centers. Eg, place one stick athwartships under the deck at the companionway against the hull, the other stick the same from the other side, bring them together in a straight line across the boat. Find the center point between two equal lines on the sticks. That is a point on the center line of the boat.
Do this stick to stick lower down using the settees.
Measure a center on the sole. Sight the 3 centers see if they line up, sort of.
Do this at the compression bulkhead. Just measure in from two apparently equal outer points and note the center. Do it in the forepeak, highup and low down. You might find the center at the cutwater inside or the center of the rudder tube under the cockpit.
But if you create a number of apparent centers you can take your chalkline and hold it taut thru as many points it will go. You can't drop a plumb bob, but you can put a straight edge across the settees and right angle up or down.
If you can secure the chaulk line, great. Do the same with the higher or lower line of points.
You still with me, bro? Port and starboard are mirror images of each other. S'posed to be. Therefor assume it so. Yer averaging a hundred points until it is cast in epoxy.
If you have lines (string) up, you can carefully move a straightedge close to them and befor you press into them you make a centerline mark on the liner or the sole or where ever. If you can prop these sticks up temporaryly next to your centering strings. you can maybe sight them tosee if they line up. If they do you probably have the center of the boat from stem to stern, and enough waterlines to place any new furniture.
You now make all your measurements from the center.
You can assume that the settees are relatively waterline, and the sole, V-berth the same. And the cockpit deck. You can make these assumptions thruout the boat, inside and out. Assume also that the two main bulkheads are parallel to each other. Also at right angles to the centerline. So that if you projected lines from a center point using a rafter square it would meet the center of the other bulkhead. If it doesn't you can check diagonals and get an idea which bulkhead may be out of line.
You can find the centerline of the foredeck using three straightedges to make a triangle that has equal angles at the base. If your triangle is placed over the toe rail in the same place on both sides AND you are centered on the stem, you instantly have a centerline. (And a bulkhead line, 90 degrees to the CL.) With some fooling around you can find mast center this way. Or where the upper shroud plates go, if you think you lost them or think Pearson didn't get it right.
BY the way the forehatch on 338 was exactly in the center. and square. So here is another place to get centered.
Ohh well, I hope this is helpful to someone.:(
Hey, we ALL hit 3000 posts!
Congratulations Bill,
this be the best boat site
on the internet, if aye say so myself.
Aye, and a toast:
"Here's to you and here's to me,
Friends may we always be!
But, if by chance we disagree
Up yours! Here's to me!":D
Hey Sprite,
I'd charge $60 an hour to breathe in Boston too.
Not sure about your chain plates, mine are stainless on #45.
As for the bulkhead , give it the pocket knife test, if solid then soak with epoxy and paint it.
Ebb,
You can also take a 1/16" drill bit and hole the waterline, run a string through and measure.
Just 'member to fill the holes with epoxy before launch time .
Mike
Mike
Whoa! You just stoppped preachin' and started meddlin' , as they told the old preacher.
I am allowed to put on airs anytime I go to Boston, and I don't get paid extra fur it neither. As clean as Boston air is, it is not quite up to North Shore standards, which is why we are here.
John
Valhalla
Commander No 284
I have my OEM chain plates for shrouds. They are chromed bronze.
Original shroud chainplates were bronze. Backstay chainplate was ss.
Sounds like Mike had a stiff one!
If you cut the skins off most places on a Triton unsupported, she drops out of camber...I found this out from hearing the frustrating experience of others.
FWIW, the bad areas of 397's deck, foredeck especially, had NO semblance of the appropriate or remotely uniform camber left, so a-bracin' we will go.
Only used a jack to help get the centerline of the curve filled out, with 2x4 run inside underneath 1/4" ply. Ran sheetrock screws in from outside to suck it tight, then trimmed misc. 2x2 and 2x4 pieces to length to jam in there underneath. Then removed sheetrock screws. Same drill at two other points on each side of center, for 5 in all on the coachroof (remember, we're wider. Ariel would do with 3...or maybe even just the middle.)
We worked coacroof 1st, head/ forward cabin ovehead 2nd, then start bracing the foredeck and work aft down each side.
Dave
I want to thank Hull 375. I pulled my chain plates up and they
look bronze. My guess is they are original. The chrome probably
came off. The chrome came off my bronze pulpit. The backstay
is stainless and just had a new one made with ss doubled
the thickness and added to more holes like the manual.
I want to replace the bronze ones with stainless. and ss screws
The ones there look bronze.
The air in Boston is fine however boat is closer to Cape Cod
(Mattapoisett). I want to thank John in Manchester by the
Sea for making his point on the difference of actually being
in Boston and on being in the vicinity. I wouldn't want the
expense of being in Boston Harbor proper.
John
Sorry I meant Hull 376 just caught the mistake
John;)
Could be that the 1st 50 or so boats were very overbuilt, even for the 60's. The guys at the Columbia factory didn't trust the spec's from the 'office' and always added extra glass in the early 60's , I bet the guys at Pearson had the same attitude until the bean counters caught them.
Just went down and threw on some extra docklines on old #45, Isabel is headed our way :>[
Capt. Dave back at the bottom of page two describes a chinese fire drill in making corrections to a boat in middle of a deck recore. What he describes is a good thing to know.
IMHO: If you took the two main bulkheads out, the deck structure, coach and dog house and cockpit would likely sag, because of the weight. Because of the natural shrinkage of the wood, it is my opinion that some sag is already present in all Ariels. It may be observable in the side decks.
Therefor, if you are going to replace the compression beam, you haveto, IMCO, do it with the bulkhead in place. Then, remove the bulkhead - but not befor you support the new beam with struts from below. IMCO it is very important to continue (at all times) to support the deck mold structure.
I feel the same thing is true of the companionway bulkhead. In fact, I have installed a laminated beam under the bridge deck at the bulkhead, which is tied into the hull, braced by the stringers and backed with tabbing. I believe the companionway had sagged on 338. But now it is locked into its final position! No kidding, sit on a settee and look at the bulkhead there....338 had the icebox hole, the engine hole, and was an inch or two short of the top....try to imagine what exactly is holding up the rear of the cockpit, the bridge deck AND the end of the cabin!!!
It's natural for the deck mold to want to relax in time. I would, if I was going to recore, support the front of the coach roof with a temporary beam, hull side to hull side, supported on the stringers. Like I said earlier, it's no big deal to make temporary beams that you support carefully with a bottle screw or two and some two-by when you are about to cut into the deck. Or you could scribe and cut plywood and construct cross braced temporary bulkheading.
When I started on the side decks, I would support the coach roof under the sidedecks inside from the bilge and the settees. I would support the whole length from nose to companionway. Nothing moves!
You don't want to distort the rather delicate inner layer with some macho shimming. This is why and it is still a good idea to consider doing the recore from inside, because you can put some extra force UP against the much thicker deck. Except for the final mat layers (to create the all important composit) it might even be easier all round. And there, by golly, is the deck looking like it always did!!!
A healthy composite deck is extremely important to the integrity of the boat. The Ariel is essentially nothing but skin and a couple of bulkheads.
I would (and have) support the boat hullside to hullside and top to bottom befor I tackled the deck, or cut a large hole. Just like you would on a wood boat. One that you were restoring.
You guys scare me, sometimes
:(
Mike
I was reading that the boat builders at the time were scared.
It was written into a few magazines around when the Pearsons
were making the ariels that fiberglass was only a fad and that
wood would be back in a couple of years. So a ton of laminates were added to the fiberglass to make it stronger. They had no
idea that these boats would last 41 years. Not a bad track record.
The thing that I like about the boat is that it is over built in some ways. What I find interesting is Carl Alberg's designs you can
go model to model and find some of the same defects in the design. I found a similar problem with decks and the strong back
with the Alberg 30. I am also glad ebb mentioned the supports gotta get some 2x6 etc.
Captain John:D
Everett Pearson (yes, that Pearson) debunks this silliness about the hull laminates (i.e. "just add extra glass because we don't know anything and we're scared of this material") in a taped discussion with the New England Triton Association from March 2, 1977.
During this talk, Pearson discusses how the Triton was specifically engineered to certain strength requirements. Specifically, the hull laminate was engineered to be able to support the entire weight of the boat on any single square inch of the hull, with only a certain minimal, specified deflection (I forget exactly, but it's in the recording) and no structural failure. I imagine the same sort of engineering was used for subsequent models as well. Granted, their engineering specifications were high, and the boats' hulls may well be overbuilt, but they were engineered as such--it wasn't an accident.
This is not to condone the myriad other construction flaws that can be found in the older Pearsons. They were a budget boat and were undeniably imperfect, but look how well they've withstood the trials of time regardless. The need for certain repairs and structural enhancements after 30 or 40 years can hardly be faulted.
The recording I mentioned above, along with another very interesting talk by Tom Potter (the person who brought the idea for the Triton to the Pearson cousins in 1958), are available on CD to anyone who is interested from the New England Triton Association. A nominal fee to cover production and shipping costs is all that is required. You may contact me for details. Email me at tlackey@pearsontriton.com
To anyone interested in these recordings: Please note that these recordings are not perfect--they are duplicates of amateur recordings from 1977--but they are audible and provide an interesting history lesson.
I took my beam out and the bulkhead out...I broke my boat:(
During the fifties and sixties they were adding more laminates on the whole. I felt personally they were better built because they
made the molds using the thicknesses of wood boats. It was an
industry in transition.
glissando, along time ago I looked at your site. I found there
were similarities how we found the boats. Sprite was in horrible
condition when I found her. Now she is starting to shape up.
Now it's the decks and recoring project.
Tony G How did it happen
Capt John
Capt John
Purely tongue in cheek. This boat is solid enough to work on without worry. Not to say I don't pay attention to what's going on or I don't care but I have a ton of confidence that she will not split apart on her trailer while I work on her. Might I add that I fully intend to put the main bulkhead back in before turning my attention to the next phase of the project but that is because it makes the most sense not because I fear catastrophy. These boats are supposed to be fun! Not worrisome. Tony G
Tony G,
These boats are fun when everything is in wonderful working order. I have had my hair pulling sessions with mine at times.
You know the types, well my deck is squishy. I have to pull out
galvanized screws off deck hardware or the previous owner
put a chainpipe to close to the aft end of the front shelf. Not to
mention my bizarre stairs leading in.
Thank God for some of my friends and family
who have helped
Captain John
Here they are worried more
about the hurricane
Wonder what the equation is for a budget boat in relation to budget engineering? Also the Triton specs could be quite different from Ariel specs, as they are different from the A-30. (viz its 1" thick transom.)
It's pretty set here that the later Ariels Could have less layers of laminate tham the earlier ones. Perhaps the engineering progressed over the production run. The deck composit on 338 has a very sparse inner mat layer. We have only our personal experiences to go by. While the hull on 338 looks completely substantial and no doubt is engineered to be so, this amatuer believes that it is also entirely possible to rack the Ariel out of plumb. Especially if the deck is opened up.
Maybe the Ariel hull could be stood on a square inch point anywhere on its surface. All 2 1/2 tons? But I know that my cut water WAS 3/8"s
thick and so WAS the 'flat' areas of the keel. A lot thinner than the "bullet proof" scantlings we think these old plastic boats have. I'm led to believe. A whole lot of hull strength comes from Alberg's fully rounded curves. You engineer these surfaces (ie, make them skinny) because of the inherent strength of the compoud curve.
What damage might happen if you rammed your 2 1/2 tons into a submerged container at 6 knots? You know, or a log? Still, we all can agree that these Pearson hulls ARE very strong and aren't going to change shape on the hard, in the yard. Well.....is this true - or not?
But does Everett guarantee that when you remove large portions of the deck that the hull will not move at all? Or for that matter the unsupported deck/cabin mold? My amatuer assumption is that the entire package has to be in it's original engineered state, let's call it, for the engineering to be viable.
I'm not an engineer or a plastic boat professional for that matter. I will have examined every cubic centimeter of 338 by launch time. That doesn't make me an expert, it makes me weird, but a lover of the craft (pun intended.) So, when I look at Pearson:
338 may have been the pond version of the Miget Ocean Racer Cruiser that I assume the Ariel was marketed as. Because the unlocked, ungasketed cockpit lockers had only perforated hard board to keep contents from ending up in the bilge, green water in the cockpit could well have been a disaster for somebody in the past. This is an offshore boat? I don't think so.
I'm wary of marketing and engineering.
Ebb,
My understanding, along with conversations past and present, is that Pearson created the Commander using the Ariel/Alberg hull as a quick response to the MORC class reacing. It is clear that while the Ariel is capable, the Ariel just did not have room for the crew needed to race. Not that I am objective about my 9 ft cockpit.
If you you look at the PHRF ratings, on average the Commander will be slightly faster by just a smidgen (you do keep a smidgen for measurement don't you?). 256.8 and 250.8 for the Ariel and Commander respectively.
John G
Valhalla
Commander No 284
Capt. John,
No surprise the Commander is faster than the Ariel. I don't think they race against one onother on S.F. Bay. Probably because the close PHRF ratings creates too many protests for serious toasting after the race.
Maybe there's a fleet out of Alviso. what race each other.
I don't know if A/Cs go out in the Pacific for a rated race...But if they do go out with unwaterproofed cockpit lockers, we may have a memorial one of these days.
Why does it take ten people to crew a race in a Commander, anyway? Can only fit four in an Ariel if you don't count the cook. Isn't four good enough for a day race?;)
My memory grows dim and I can't remember what was sailing at the same time as the Commander. Was the Cal 27 later? I think it was.
I just looked at the base PHRF's to keep things equal and the early Cal 27 was rated 192/outboard ands 195/Inboard. The 27-II and 27-III were rated slightly faster. That's a more than a smidgen difference. I told you that having a smidgen is useful from time to time.
Of course the Ariel fit into the rule. The question is how did it rate and how did it sail against it's rating?
Ten is a slight exageration. I think I would race with:
Skipper/helmsman 1
Jib trimmers/tailers 2
Main trim/Navigator 1
Foredeck monkey 1
When I raced on the Chesapeake , we used to race the Annapolis 25's with 3-4, but that could get exciting.
John
Valhalla
Commander No 25
PS. Valhalla took a second in class in the last S.S. Crocker Race here here off Manchester, MA.
Without my tongue in cheek, I can say without exageration, and heartyly:
Congrats on getting the old girl a high-end second!
There have been many times when I wished I be a racer (or a fisherman.) You guys just slap on a coat of vinyl and GO, tweek your new G A A A R H A U E R s, slip on your topsiders, stick your chins out to check the telltales, and breathe in that special pheromone mix of salt, ozone, chicks and glory.....
whilst us poor schleps, who actually work on boats, sweat and cuss in the bowels and bilges, breath dust and fumes of parking lots and cans of can't-be-made-safe petrochemicals. Just to get her into a sailable conditon, again!
What a life! P H R F to you, Buddy....
Bet you don't even feel guilty taking in a Sunday ball game!:D
Weellll......I gotta be honest here. We are among friends and mates.
The S.S. Crocker Race is a "Fun race" sponsored by the Manchester Harbor Boat Club ( my Club), the Manchester Yacht Club (where the Hinckleys live) and the Crocker Boat Yard. The race is in memory of the founder and Famous Marine Architect, S. S. Crocker (Think Stone Horse for instance). The race committee only hears protests on December 31st in the middle of the harbor. The start is a staggered one, and if the committee has done it's job, everyone crosses the finish line at the same time. My class starts first, and this year included a 45 ft motorsailor, and a Stone Horse that was a smidgen ahead of me ( I didn't see him finish.)
I am still learning how to sail Valhalla. The addition of a traveller has made a visable difference in my ability to point. I am still learning how to set my asymetric spinnaker. Valhalla loves to reach and I made up a lot of time on the reaching leg.
It still can get exciting at the corners. The calls for buoy room can get a bit strained, but I have never seen anyone come to blows. I do get blown away down wind. I am now getting convinced that I need to tack down wind and that means I am going to have to learn how to gybe the spinnaker.
SO I hope to end up in the top half and finish well in class. This year was a good one.
John
Valhalla
Commander No 284
Mike,
When you mention the bulkhead on the previous page and using a knife do you mean from the top. I noticed a slight crack on the liner on the left side of the companion way door as you are walking into the cabin its in the corner closer to the bow.
Should I just fill it in with epoxy. It's hairline. The top of the
cabin is solid just epoxy???
Capt. John
:confused:
Captain Mike,
How much core should you buy at the different depths let's say
for an area forward of the cockpit to the stemhead. I wonder is the cockpit floor balsa. How do you get at the coring in the cabin roof.
Capt John
:)
Capt John,
Have you read the Sandifer article? Good Old Boat has placed his article on delamination repair on its Web site. You can read it online at:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm