jib track placement

Friends,

I am learning a lot from your site!

After repainting inside and out, balancing and building the A4, and stripping a trashed racing hull for hardware, I am refitting Chalupa, #56. This boat is a member of the family that I started sailing on before I was born, so I really want to do everything right, but of course, as a poor professor that means I end up doing most of it myself since I can't afford to hire the best!

I am interested in learning about jib track placement. I noted on the Triton site that someone recommended moving the tracks forward, near the forward of the two main cabin portholes. I was wondering about possibly moving them outside to the toe rail and putting a long track or even a rub rail that would allow placing blocks anywhere along the length. While we had only a working jib, from the racing hull, I now have jibs ranging from a small storm jib to a 150% Genoa. So, from your experience I hope to learn:

1) how much performance will I lose going outside the safetly lines or should I just forget this?
2) what do you think is the best placement
3) what do you think is the best length
4) what is the best brand where both quality and price are considerations

I appreciate the feed back!

Ted

Good questions:

Standard issue is two tracks on either side, as you are aware. I replaced my original ones with Shaeffer tracks, but mounted largely where the old ones were. My only criticism of the original tracks is that they were too short. The forward track I use with the 100% and the storm jib and I would like it to probably be a foot longer in each direction. If you can't find the Shaeffer tracks that I mentioned above, let me know and I'll look them up for you.

The genoa track (and my genoa is a 170%), could be six inches longer in each direction.

I just find myself putting the blocks at the extreme ends too often, which infers that I need a bit longer slider.

I don't know about putting them outside the lifelines. The underside of the gunwale is a terror to work with, and I don't know how you would secure the tracks underneath without a lot of effort. Additionally, I would be concerned that you might pull the deck off the hull where the tracks are mounted, and take in water. If it only cracks that seal (and I have had this problem) the crack becomes a devil to find, is probably not visible, and is always leaking. Perhaps the one major defect in the Ariel that I am familiar with is the bond between the deck and the hull. I would not want to place stress on that bond.

The forces on the tracks can be immense. I have had a track pull through the deck (and now have substantial backing plates).

Hope this helps.

Here is a photo of the jib and Genoa track placement on Pathfinder. The long track takes 120 percent and up.

As for fastening the track, I attach an appropriate sized machine screw at each fastener opening on the track (6-inch intervals). Each nut is backed by a washer. Never had a failure.

Is the outside track a Shaefer? Did you have any trouble bending it? How long is the inside track? Thanks.

WOW! Much to my surprise I am looking at the Ariel forum this morning and find a picture of our boat. I guess someone has a key to the gate.

The track is Schafer. It is one inch racing track which just means it has more holes to set the leads. The out board track was fairly easy to install. I just drilled through the track for the first three forward holes dropped a couple of screws to hold it and then just worked my way aft. I had a helper hold the aft end of the track as I worked my way back.

The inside track is four feet long. The reason for the length is by design. I don't want to use the very ends. The normal placement is about even with the forward edge of the window. As I mentioned in a previous thread as the wind comes up to the +20 knot range we will move the lead back to open up the top of the sail. The farthest we will move the lead aft is near the aft edge of the window.

But hey how about the great looking wood! Thanks to everyone for giving me the needed advise on how to take it all apart and get it back together again....ed

Bill,

The picture is a big help, as is the description of the use. Is there a reason why you did not follow the line of the cabin rather than having the track veer out into the walk way on deck? I have some very nice stainless tracks, but of course they will *not* bend around the cabin and are only about 2.5' which sounds like I would regret not having longer for use with the storm jib. Lord knows I don't want to put something down and then change my mind!

Ted

Ed: Your vessel does look sharp. I'll give a good reason for having the longer tracks so the slider never goes to the end. When I have had the tracks pull through the deck, the slider was at the end of the run. The deck support is concentrated when the slider is at the end, whereas when the track goes further, there is more support.

After I raised the issue of the bent track, it occurred to me that you don't have lifelines and stanchions. That does change things. The stanchions would have to be inside the slider, I guess.

Theis, Your are correct we don't have life lines. I took them off so long ago I forgot about them. It would be a little more difficult to place the track but I think it still could be done. The nice part about how it went down for me was that I was able to follow the edge of the non skid. This gave a clean line to follow so I didn't end up with any waves.

I too have seen the ends pull up on other boats. So the outer track is set to take loads similar as the inner. For the 125% jib the leads are located three screw heads aft (9"+/-) to start and for the genoa about 18" forward of the aft end.

We also have a car that we will slide on the outer track that sets just aft of the after lower and on it we will attach a block for twingers that are use for the spinnaker.

This whole system went on about three years ago and I love it. With all that extra track we have so many more options in setting up and trimming the sails. I have looked at the Garhauer web page and drooled over their adjustable jib cars. Just can't bring myself to spend the money yet. But I assure you as soon as we go on the next loosing streak the wallet will come out and more go fast toys will be added (<: .........ed

Ted,

#76 uses the 2.5' ss track for its jib, as well as at the aft for a Genoa:

Ed,

Why did you take your safety lines off? I am very anxious to put a set on Chalupa, #56 because a) I have 2 kiddos and b) I am always envious of the people who have them on their sloops with all kind of wonderful gear hanging off of them.

Ted

I agree. On the Lakes here, I wouldn't be caught without lifelines (#82 didn't have them when I first bought them.) But I'd love to figure out a way to use the longer tracks and have stanchions.

HI Ted,
Why I took off the life lines? There are a number of reasons we don't have life lines but I guess if there needs to be one bottom line it would be to allow our jib to set as clean as possible. With the sail cut that we have it was difficult if not impossible to strap it in when going to weather.

Many if not most the Ariels I see in the San Francisco area do not have life lines. I know there is a number of opinions on the pros and cons of life lines and we have opted to take the con position. Plus to see the sheer line of and Ariel nice and clean, without the stanchions and lines and all that stuff hangin' off them, is a beautiful thing to behold in my opinion...........ed

I'm thinking of getting some new genoa tracks. Mine are flat metal bars with a thin strip of pressboard type material underneath to keep the track off the deck a little, so the genoa cars run free.

The pressboard has deteriorated and broken up, and was too thin to begin with. I was getting ready to replicate a spacer somehow.

Maybe I'll save myself some aggravation and buy tracks with the spacer molded in (T-tracks) like these
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...roductId=15525

Ed, your genoa tracks seem to be well forward. If I buy longer tracks, how would I benefit from extending them forward as you have?

I have had 1" schaeffer tracks installed on the toerail for two seasons now. Much like shown above in a photo and installed as shown at http://dan.pfeiffer.net/p26/ttrack.htm I used 8' lengths and am very happy with the function, however:

Working jib and smaller sails need sheeting point to be more inboard for pointing close to the wind. I plan on installing 4 - 5' lengths on the cabintop (commander, remember) in line with and in place of the original jib track there.

For the working jib I use the forward end of the track for now, or the original track. My new track ends just behind the lower, aft chainplates. The aft end of the track, with another Garhauer block, is used to lead the sheet to the winches until I build a wooden stand for a cheek block as proposed and shown on my page at http://www.bway.net/~bogle/winch.html

For my 120% the sheeting angle seems suitable for pointing close, but probably could be more inboard (and I will be able to use the cabintop track for this). I considered mounting the track on the deck a few inches from the coaming, but I did not do this because of the fiberglass winch stands given to me by our generous fellow sailor, commanderpete. They extend out onto the deck from the coaming and I need a sheeting point right about there for the 150%.

David

Here you go Theis , lifelines and new tracks .

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...p?threadid=173

You can see the wounds from the old tracks on deck. New track is thru bolted with a washer and a lock washer . I must warn you , getting to the nuts up in the toerail is no picnic .

Hey Pete,
I can't say if you would benefit but I am sure it could give you more options. As I described earlier we use the track for a couple of different set ups. Sheet leads for the 125% jib, the 150% jib, twingers for the spinnaker. Sometimes when the spin gear is not set up we will use the out board track to connect the preventer. ( I have a pre rigged system for the preventer with a big rubber band). SO the bottom line is we have options to do things that the smaller in board track could do but the sheeting angles are not proper.

I am familiar with the track system that you have. If news letter editor Mr. Bill is on board he might be able to describe how he set his genoa track up. When I switched to the long track I gave Bill my old original and I think he mounted it on #76.

Also a note to David. It might be different on a Commander but with #77 we would have preferred to run the 125 sheets in board as you describe but the leech of the sail was strapped up against the spreaders. Even with the out board lead the leech comes right to the spreader tips. Just a heads up for you. ......ed

Ed,

Thanks for the heads up. I may have the same problem with inboard sheeting points for the #2, that is, the leach of the sail overlapping the spreader tips. My #2, however, is more like a 118%, but I do think it still overlaps the spreader. I was already thinking I would lead the sheet between the shrouds, but if it overlaps the spreader, this is not a solution....We'll see in the spring.

The working jib originally was lead forward of the forward lowers, and shroud rollers were installed on said lowers. The sheets rolled on them and the clew came right to the roller when close hauled. I never brought it inside that since it had sheet blocks installed at the clew which made it difficult. (That was before I installed winches.)

Commander Pete,

If you decide to replace only the pressboard that was under your tracks, then here is a nice solution. The product called Starboard is wonderful to work with. I replaced my original mainsheet traveler with a nice piece of (flat) stainless track from another boat. I used Starboard to put underneath it. By choosing the proper thickness and placing it between and outside (but not over) the original elevated mouting points, I did not have to modify the fiberglass in any way. One works with Starboard just like wood and it comes in various thicknesses. That is how I planned to install the jib tracks until this thread convinced me to put at least 4' tracks on and the stainless I have is only 30 inches.

Ted

Thanks, hadn't considered Starboard for that.

I was thinking of buying a sheet of fiberglass 1/4 inch thick. Then I would need to cut it to about 1/2 inch wide.

Then I would be drilling a bunch of 1/4 inch holes in it.

I was sure disaster would strike, probably when I tried bending it to fit.

Ditto here on track bases. On #76 we replaced the original factory teak strip under the ss track with a 1/4'' - or so - section of "phenolic" plastic (same stuff from which the original blocks were made). The Genoa track from Ed's boat became our jib track (see photo above). The original ss Genoa track remains where Pearson put it. I'll get a photo of it when it stops raining.

Theis - I see you have your genoa on top of the toe rail. mine is there also, but after a little exploration, i don't believe there is any reinforcement, backing plates or other on mine. What did you use. i hear horror stories (ok, maybe just one) about the track ripping out and though, "Boy that would suck, especially at that part of the deck. how do i prevent it?"

Maybe some of the others have thoughts. My preliminary thought is of the Hobie Cat 16 i still haven't sold yet. the two shrouds are attached throught the edge of the deck/hull joint. and it uses a solid rod about 2" long, with a hole drilled perpendicular-ly and the chainplate/thing threads into that. it spreads the load along the inside of the "lip" of the deck/hull joint.

Anybody know if that is a practice out there? or where to get such a thing?
thanx - km#3

attached pic:

It seems to me that with the number of people here getting ready to re-do their tracks, the international mega conglomerate marine supply store of 'that other' thread should cut a deal!:D

I'm painting the deck of 376 and have just finished removing all the deck hardware, including the tracks. And I can tell you removing the nuts from inside the toe rail was probably just as hard as it was for who ever put them there in the first place! However, inspecting the joint and top of rail has not uncovered any kind of stress or cracking. I figure if its held for 40 years, it will hold another 40. But if someone has a great idea on how to provide better backing than just using washers, I'm all ears.

Ok, now I sound like a broken record, but just having replaced *all* my deck hardware after painting #56, I used both aluminum plates and starboard because I had both. I much prefer the starboard - cheap and easy to work with. I plan on backing my jib tracks with that also. As for backing under the toe rail, I am not sure how bendable the starboard would be... but that is certainly where I want to put my genoa tracks.

Hull 376:
I purchased a 1/8" X 1" widealuminum strip , and had it drilled to match the track. The strip could be wider. The strip extends beyond the track at both ends. This strip is then the backing for the track. I used lock washers as well.

so if i were a bolt on your track, i would go though the track, go down a ways (empty space) before going through the Aluminium plate and then the nut?

does the AL plate fit up into the underside of the toe rail?
(plate "A" on the pic)

does one lip of it set on the underside of the deck? if so, what supports the other side? (plate "B" on the pic)

thanks a million
-km#3

I apologize for the poor quality of my rendition of my suggestion. I envision my best attribute might be writing prescriptions.

Recognize, I have not put the track on the toe rail, but here are my thoughts, or lack of thought, regarding the project. I am not near the boat, and haven't looked closely at it recently prior to my comments.

The toe rail is an important structural component, in my opinion. The joint between the hull and the deck is perhaps the weakest part of the Ariel, and the joining surfaces of the two components must move together. The toe rail, for example, can not be allowed to lift relative to the hull, and the top of the hull can not be forced outward without a comparable forcing of the U shaped toe rail out.

As I recall it, the inside of the toe rail is quite irregular and rough.

My suggestion is that you use an aluminum 'U" shaped channel mounted inside the toe rail (You can get this material at ACE hardware). The track bolt goes through the toe rail, between the legs of the channel, and through the bottom of the channel. Underneath the channel, use a washer and nut.

The theory is that there will be no force against the sides of the toe rail or the hull causing them to flex independently. The nut will be mounted against a flat surface and the force holding the track down distributed across THE UPPER FLAT SURFACE OF THE TOE RAIL. If the toe rail curves inward where the legs of the channel meet it, the legs will be forced inward (an advantage of aluminum is that this forming is more easily accomplished) so that, again, there will be no force causing the toe rail to flex laterally.

If the inside of the toe rail is very round, as indicated by your drawing, an aluminum bar inserted inside the toe rail instead of the channel, with the bolts passing through the bar, could serve the same function. With the bar, you might want to place a 1/8" piede of neoprene between the bar and the inside of the toe rail. The purpose of the neoprene cushioning is to avoid point contacts. The neoprene distributes the forces uniformly across a broader area.

Anyway, that is how I would do it, absent a better idea. My concern with your proposal is the stressing of the deck/hull joint. Plus, I think it might be more complicated than necessary.

Peter

Sorry, forgot the drawing

sorry Theis, i saw the picture Mike posted, read the first line and got everybody mixed up.

so my original question goes to Mike Goodwin, how did you add reinforcement to your toe-rail mounted tracks? posted above are the discussions Theis and I had when I had him mixed up with you. did you reinforce it in either of the ways we talked about (round rod with hole drilled, upside-down aluminum U-channel, etc)?

Also, would you do it that way again?

Thanks so much,

-km#3

Just thru bolts and double washers . The toe rail is very thick glass and I used the new T track . All bolted together it is stronger than the factory deck mounted job that lasted 40 years .
The edge of the deck is very strong glasswork and I don't feel nervous at all about it giving way.
The pull is distributed the length of the track , not on one bolt at a time .
I have seen much larger boats equiped in this manner with no problems and not as heavy glasswork as the Pearsons .

I just want to add here that I do not beleive there is a reason to reinforce the toerail structure. I installed my 1" track with 1/4" bolts, washers and nylock nuts.

The shape of the fiberglass toerail creates great strength, and that is why it is shaped, as much as to keep your toes from finding the gunwale unexpectedly. The glass I drilled on #92 was approximately 1/4" thick.

There are many irregularities on the underside of this. The glass that covers the joint on #92 from the inside is not always flat against the hull. Sometimes the hole I drilled (centered on the top) is too close to the hull side and so I used a smaller size washer. When brought up tight it bends to some extent to the shape of the glass.

Forces from the sheeting cars are distributed along the track to several holes. For these reasons I do not think (though I was concerned with reinforcement before installing) that it is necessary to provide a continuous backing.

If anything I would create an epoxy fill to seat the washers on. I used this technique when reinstalling the bow chocks. Thick epoxy pushed up into the toerail followed by a 1/4" epoxy coated strip of plywood. Then drill and tighten the nut over washers on the plywood.

that last part about filling with epoxy, please look at a previous picture/diagram i posted on 1-23-03. does either of the two "plates" shown there mimic the plywood part of your reinforcement?
i can imagine that there might be a lot of epoxy to fill the cavity.
how did you keep it from running out the ends?

i guess i am just really paranoid over this reinforcement issue, probably brought on by the report of having track pull out coupled with the manual's discussion about the hull/deck joint and voids therein.
but thanks anyway.
km#3

Yes, the plywood plate is in the horizontal plane as Plates A and B in the above diagram. The toerail is not as deep as shown in that diagram.

The epoxy must be thickened so it will not run. Several types of additives may be used. Get the West Systems book for the least expensive introduction to use of epoxy.

A pretty large quantity of epoxy would be required to do the entire track. You might try just the ends to save material.

Did I miss a post with someone's track pulling out? What were the circumstances of that?

Apparently the track being pulled out has happened to a couple of us. My experience relates to a deck mounted track.

The bolts, with the washers, literally pull through the fiberglass, bending up the track, which puts strain on the next bolt in the line, and then that too gives way. However, it was the stern end of the track that pulled out. I don't know if that would have been as likely if the car had been more centered in the track.

That is why, in my opinion, you should use a metal bar under the track that links the bolts so that the stress area on the fiberglass is more than simply the diameter of a washer.

I have inboard tracks on my Commander but my bow chocks are
attached to the toe rail. The problem I had was that there was
no way to bed the washer in the concave and irregular space
within the inner toe rail. What I wound up doing was to
bed the chock and mix up some Pro-Poxy putty. I shaped a wad
that wraps around the bolt between the washer and the glassI didn't
tighten up the bolt much but kind of flattened out the putty. The putty
cured and as it did I tightened the bolt/screw and squeezed out the 4200,(outside)
and set the epoxy into its irregular place. Solid as a rock and real clean as you can easily
mold the epoxy before it sets and can sand and paint it if you want. I've used
Propoxy to mold bushings and part seats etc. Its good stuff and is easy to work with
as long as you use gloves. I have used it with West System products without a hitch
Cheers B.
Commander #215

Mike,

Here are mine, I settled on 8' of 1" track. How long are yours?

Any tips on the install?

I plan to start forward where the bend is more severe, so I won't have to finish bending the ends with short pieces of track (and little leverage).

Looking good!
Start up by the shrouds and work your way aft , easier with a second set of hands . I need to get fired up on #45 , good weather and free time do not come together .
I was talking to a friend of my in Jacksonville on Fri. , I might be down your way in a few weeks. Let's get together for a beer . Are you on the Neuse ?

Mine are in 2 pieces, I did the genny tracks first , then decided to move the jib tracks out to the rail so I just stacked them end to end . You will need a deep thinwall socket for setting the nuts up in the toe rail.

I splashed Commmander #105 on April 23, minus the mast and jib track. Being new to sailing and boat repair I am in some need as to where I should place the jib track and how long it should be, while I have every confidense in the toerail that I rebuilt I wish to replace the new tracks inboard of the toerails. I will secure the new rails to aluminum strips 3" wide under the side decks for strength and peace of mind. The mast is another story I am having a new masthead sheave made in aluminum to the same dimensions as the old because I know no better, could the old sheave be replaced with a smaller one? Lastly the old original tiller broke in half as I was motoring around the dock in some wind and tide, good old duck tape and a c clamp came to the resue. On the way home I purchased a new tiller at good ol' West Marine for $169.00 untill I can make my own.I don't think very much of the laminated tillers or the finish on them. Also I am waiting to have the rigger make some new standing rigging for the mast as some of the old ones have burrs from the boat the rode up and down on them in the storm. :o :confused:

Robert, the photos at posts #3 and #10 in this thread (p.1) should give you a good idea of where to place your track inside the toe rail. Sheave size sounds right to me. As noted in the manual, I insterted a bearing into the original phonelic shieve. Real tough stuff.

Just removed my old bronze jib tracks and will replace them with Schaeffer racing tracks at 4" centers. They are mounted on the toerail, but the 1/4-20 FH mounting screws are THREADED into the toerail and a bent washer/nut is used as a backer. Slick, strong and no leaks in 40 years. Someone had their thinking cap on! Also, the first foot or so of the tracks are straight on both ends. Like steam bending wood, the ends are impossible to bend in situ. With longer bolts, the old track might even make a nice backer plate, full length. Nah, on second thought......

Just now today we finished fitting the Schaeffer racing tracks onto the toerails of Adele M. We used the old threaded holes in the toerail, sort of , as not all of them lined up, and put washers and nuts up under. For the ones that did not line up, I redrilled them with a #7 drill bit and threaded them for 1/4-20 threads. I coated the threads with polysulphide caulk.

Bending was easier than I thought it would be. Started at the forward end, put in one bolt at a time gently bending the track to stay centered above the rail, drilling and tapping as necessary, and secured the end caps with 12-24 FH screws. The track is surprisingly flexible. Also put in a harken traveler, set on varying height pvc tubing stubs, which worked great.

You might want to consider more than just washers under the track. With the original Pearson issue track, I have had both pulled through the deck,taking the deck with them. Today I have a stainless plate, about an inch wide, extending beyond the length of the track.

The principal problem occurs when the car is at either end of the track. The strain can pop the first through hole, then the second - right down the line.

My tracks are on the deck, so the problem may be worse than on the toe rail, but it is still something to think about. Particularly, with the minimal width of the toe rail, the washers can't be that big, I would imagine.

The crazy thing is, the original track used the same bolts, and about half of them had NO nuts or washers on them. None had popped through or were even loose, but the rail is 1/4" thick and sometimes more at the crown. I put 3/4" washers, bent into a curve, on each one, except those too near bulkheads or hull sections. The track is eight feet long, and the way my sails are cut I will be not using the end positions, so it should be ok.
For deck mounts, that s/s backer plate sounds like a good fix.

Had the same problem as Dan. The holes in my old Schaefer track didn't quite line up with the holes in my new Schaefer track. Both were supposedly 4" on center. Strange.

My track was deck mounted, not on the toerail. I don't think the boat came from the factory with genoa tracks, or maybe it was optional equiptment

Had some time to replace the damaged jib tracks on my Commander. I used 1 1/2" wide aluminum strips the length of the tracks instead of washers under the decks to secure them. Note the slam hatch on the cockpit deck, gives me more space for storage and easy access.The toerail and end corner deck dosn't look like most of it has been replaced. Used pvc pipe for the center of the rail, fiberglassed it in and used cathair to mold it. Used auto weather stripping between coamings an side decks. Still have some painting to do and I am waiting for a masthead sheave replacement that is being made from aluminum. Summer is here and in this area the wind is very light this time of year besides being hot and humid but look forward to sailing a lot this autumn. :o

I've been deep in thought regarding the installation of my sail track(s) for far too long... and I need to get on it! Before I start drilling holes I'd like to learn a bit more.

To date, I've been using a bit of track I installed on the cabin top. This really works best with the storm sail. When I use it with my 100% my ability to trim is limited. (I am unable to pull in the top of the sail and suffer from excess twist at the top of the sail).

I plan to install a bit of track to use with my 100% and for proper trim, this needs to be located down on the deck, around the location of the chainplates in a similar fashion as shown in Post #15 above. I plan to use a 4' length in order to provide for sails ranging from maybe 90% to 115-120%

I am also currently able to use my 180% using an 'unconventional' rigging arrangement involving my stern cleat which actually provides reasonable trim... I will use a long track on the rail to accommodate headsails in the 130% & larger range... I currently have a 135% and my mighty 180% Genoa. (This planned track arrangement is shown in PURPLE in the picture.

- Ignore the arrangement of the sheet in this picture - I was hosing the salt water out of the sail and then started planning the location of the tracks.


My questions are:

1.- Regarding the angle of the track for the smaller headsails; I see tracks angled both inwards and outwards on many boats - sometimes the angle is quite dramatic... and this does not make sense to me.

Should the track be in line with the 'tack' (lower forward corner of the sail -attached to the stem) as shown by the RED line in the picture. Is this correct? (see QUESTION #2 BELOW)

2.- In Bill's post #15 (I attempt to illustrate the location of Bill's track in GREEN) It seems that your track will pull the sail's clew close to the centerline of the boat as you pull the car aft. Perhaps allowing for better pointing? Is this the correct angle?

3.- Has anyone installed a track on the rail? If so, what sort of construction arrangement did you make underneath in order to provide proper backing in the gap under the rail? This are is unfinished and a bit messy - I am considering filling this area in with epoxy; but this is a lot of epoxy...

Thanks in advance for any insight! (do you have a picture of your sail track arrangement?) I really do not want to poke holes and then realize I botched this up and need to poke more holes!

Rico

With your permission, i'll offer one more option. A-231's tracks run from the chain plates to aft to the winches just inboard of the rail. I found this easy to fasten (it is a flat run). This works with my 110%, the 130% and allowed me to place a cleat Amidships.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...4&postcount=25

I'll eventually add another set of tracks where your drawing shows the green line once i add a blade to the sail locker.

cheers,
bill@ariel231:)

Hey Rico,
Original owner installed track on the rails on Lucky Dawg. See pictures in my posts here:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15092&postcount=8

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15403&postcount=27

I think had I done it, I might have put a matching backing inside, but as I mention in the post, in 40+ years, it hasn't failed... Interestingly, that is the only sail track on LD - none forward.

I think the problem will be getting a good lead to the primary winches. The coaming boards will probably be in the way with the green or orange tracks.

The red track might work, with two swivel blocks--an adjustable block towards the front and one "permanent" block at the back leading to the winch.

Maybe a block on the green track to a block on the purple track and then to the winch.

It might help to go sailing and step on the jib sheet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bill@ariel231

Rico

With your permission, i'll offer one more option. A-231's tracks run from the chain plates to aft to the winches just inboard of the rail. I found this easy to fasten (it is a flat run). This works with my 110%, the 130% and allowed me to place a cleat Amidships.

I'll eventually add another set of tracks where your drawing shows the green line once i add a blade to the sail locker.

---

Thanks Bill,

I've had my eye on those cleat sliders. They are definitely handy amidships. It seems that you run your sheets OUTSIDE of the shrouds/stay. Is this correct?

I've considered installing the tracks just inside the toerail... It seems simpler as far as the fastening & backing... I do have a nice 10' piece of track that would conflict with my scupper holes... I'll have to put my thinking cap on and figure out how to get proper bedding for the track fasteners. Some big washers over a 2-3" wide strip of 1/2" starboard, or 1/8" Aluminum plate should look (and act) the part; I am thinking...

I've spent some quality time down in the lockers and I came out thinking that it was not as bad as I remembered... I even filled-in a small section of the rail to test the results...
I will report back shortly...

Lucky Dog,
I've looked through LD's gallery (again) and I need to hire your photographer!

I really like the contrast you get with your bright hull... Mine always looks better in person than in the pictures especially with the sun in the back which makes my red waterline look black! (That's what I get with the gray, huh...)
Awesome shots. I really like the one you have up on post #75...

Anyway thank you for the pictures. What size genoa do you fly? (Do you have the measurement of the foot?)

I saw in post #27 that LD's PO filled in the gap and covered it with a bit of glass... Maybe with the VERY thick resin & glass all you'd really need would be the nut as shown by your experience. Perhaps you'd be really secure with just a fender (big) washers in the middle run and maybe a plate washer at the ends... Seems pretty strong!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by commanderpete

The red track might work, with two swivel blocks--an adjustable block towards the front and one "permanent" block at the back leading to the winch.

Maybe a block on the green track to a block on the purple track and then to the winch.

It might help to go sailing and step on the jib sheet

---

Commanderpete; Utilizing the car on the rail track (purple) as you suggest seems like the ticket to ensure proper sheet placement.
I will be spending some quality time this weekend stepping on jibsheets and putting pencil marks on the deck! I HAVE to get these puppies ON!





UPDATE: Jib tracks are on!
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...ead.php?t=1552
Post #99

The "Genoa T Tracks" thread has been deleted. Please follow this thread.

I was just reading the July 2010 Sail mag article by Dave Gerr about appropriate sheeting angles. He does all the geometry and then calculates what the sheeting location should be for a jib and a 150% Genoa. I got curious about where his method would place the Genoa track and the sheeting point on an Ariel (see the picture below of 7 degree and 10 degree sheeting angles on an Ariel). Dave's article points out that a 150% is about the biggest sail that you can usually efficiently fly with the close hauled 7 degree sheeting angle: bigger sails have sheeting points that would be off the back of the boat!! Anyway, my surprise is that the sheeting point using his calculations for a 150 Genoa would put it almost to the back of the coaming board. Hummm. I usually sheet my 150 much closer to the standard winch position--- which happens to be about where the 10 degree sheeting angle would be. Not being on the boat right now, I can't get my head around how Dave's far aft point would actually work with respect to the shrouds, etc. Also, he builds the sail design (clew point) based on where the sheeting point is--- so that a line from the sheeting point perpendicular to the headsail luff would intersect the luff about 40% from the tack. Any comments from the racers on this article and what it would imply? What is right about it, and what might be wrong--- or full of caveats???

Interesting. My Commander came with the track out on the toe-rail and well aft. I've tried in my rookie way to experiment and always felt that the 150 and the 170 before it did best when the car was furthest aft even though the sails laid against the shroud. The "experienced" sailors told me I was wrong. Maybe I should not have listened. I also do not have life-lines or stanchions so the sail comes inboard more than it might on an Ariel with lines.

I've since had the 170 cut down to a 150. I've never missed not having that huge sail and have enjoyed running downwind with twin headsails often.

That's what I was thinking - have to take the spreaders into account visavis sheet angle.

The 10 degree jib track rule of thumb is discussed in Arthur Knapp's old book 'Race Your Boat Right'. He gives the credit of it's origination to a sail designing friend who name I don't remember. But it doesn't sound too scientifically derived, it's a rule of thumb. He also talks about double sheeted jib rigging which is having a sheet attached to the jib or one of the jib sheet that pulls the clew downward as well as the regular sheet that pulls backwards (aft). I'd like to try this out one day.

Sail designs have really changed since many of these ideals were formed. Best to be skeptical and learn from experience and experiment.

Ben

I have been reading this thread with interest especially since I have been sailing my Ariel for only 6 months and experimenting with different trim settings for the headsails. I have the original SS 30inch genoa track but the PO apparently removed the original jib tracks by the cabin sides. I have a CDI roller furler and have 2 headsails; 150% and 135%. CDI claims that I should be able to furl down to 70% of the original LP and still maintain a decent shape to the headsail although they recommend padded luffs which my sails do not have. In my case, I should be able to get the sails down to approximately 95-100% size. However, if the genoa blocks are not moved forward, I run the risk of the furler jumping up off the bearing and having a big mess to deal with. I wonder therefore, what modifications I should make to the genoa track configuration to make sure that once I furl down I can modify the trim to satisfy the smaller sail size. Can I manage a 100% headsail size with a longer genoa track or will I need to switch over an inner track by the cabin sides as originally set up for the smaller jibs? I feel it would be difficult to furl in and then have to switch the sheets to the inboard side of the shrouds but I am not sure what else would work.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Marcelo

Different sail configurations require different sheeting points -therefore; in order to achieve the best sail shape, you will need to move cars and/or shift tracks (when changing the sail size dramatically) as the sail demainds for proper trim...

Not the most desirable thing for a furled sail boat skipper... but there no way around it!

You might notice that some of the modern mass-produced boats come with a very long single tracks and remotely adjustable track cars... Not an ideal solution (again), but an attempt to cover as many of the options posible.

It is very common to see boats out on the bay carrying horrible sail trim ignoring the flailing sails' suffering with neither the crew or skipper bothering to adjust the sails...

Multiple sheet cars will ease the work required to shift from one track to another... Simply take-up the lazy sheet in on the inner track for closer trimming and switch the active shhet to the lazy side...

You can also carry two sets of sheets - one on each set of tracks/cars...

Thanks for the prompt reply. Is the original 30 inch track sufficient to properly trim the 150 and 135 when closed hauled? At what size headsail would you switch to the inboard track?

Hey Marcelo,

Your 30" track COULD be sufficient for your boat provided it is in the right location for ONE of these sails... Either the 135% OR the 150% depending on where the track is...

I highly doubt that it would give you enough range to properly trim a 135% AND a 150% jib.

It is hard to say much without actually seeing the sails at work on your boat.

Proper sail trim depends on the specific sail (cut, shape, etc.) and the conditions (especially with a furler as they can adopt a strange shape under load when not fully unfurled...), as well as the location of the cars, AND the location of the track itself on the boat.

I've read a bit on the subject and found that Ivar Dedekam's short & sweet book "Sail & Rig tuning" nicely illustrated the basic points.

There are MANY discussions on the web, but many are confused and contradictory. It is all Physics, but there seems to be all sorts of opinions... The books help keep the focus on the topic succinct & to the point.

The right answer inevitably depends on the conditions... Wind direction, wind intensity, and intended course relative to this. As well as The sails, sheet geometry and the boat... it is not a very hard subject - just one that takes a bit of skill and 'art' as it depends on many variables.

Going to own the Dedekam book, Thanks for the tip.
Reviews are ALL positive, if not ecstatic, about his explanations and great diagrams.
Amazon samples one page of colored graphics that alone makes this book look really exceptional.

Local Barnes and Noble store don't have it in stock.
But they'll get it delivered to me for $19.32 in four days.

I try not to partially furl the genoa. The boat performs better with a reef or two in the main instead.

My genoa tracks don't run forward enough for a partially furled genoa either. I've experimented with using a "barber hauler" made up of snatch blocks on a short line attached to padeyes on deck. (like the small picture below). This way I can use the same genoa sheets and still pull the sheet down and inside a bit when the genoa is partially furled.

There is a pretty good general discussion on genoa sheet leads at the UKHalsey website with a few diagrams

http://www.ukhalsey.com/LearningCent...clopedia5b.asp

I'll reproduce it here in case the link fails



UK-Halsey's Encyclopedia of Sails
-- Genoa Trim

Chapter 1
Chapter 2
Chapter 3
Chapter 4
Chapter 5
Main Sail Trim
Genoa Trim
Sailing to Telltails
Chapter 6
Chapter 7
Chapter 8
Chapter 9
Chapter 10

I will be purchasing Ivan Dedekam's book promptly. Great suggestion! The barber hauler is an interesting concept. How well do they work? When you say that you rather not furl the headsail and instead reef the main, what size genoa are you flying? Do you have any pics of the barber hauler setup on your boat?
Thanks,
Marcelo

Hi Marcelo

I have a 135 furling genoa on my boat. I don't have any pictures of the barber hauler set up. But, you can use any sort of block. The idea is just to deflect the angle of the sheet without running the sheet through a permanent lead block.

Sometimes a barber hauler is called an "inhauler." You also use these when flying a spinnaker and they call them a "tweaker" or "twing."

My idea with using a barber hauler was to get a little better shape and pointing ability out of the partially furled sail.

How well does it work? I really cant say how much it helps. If I'm rolling up the genoa I've already got two reefs in the main so its blowing like stink. I probably dont feel like pointing as high as possible. I'd rather foot off a bit in the waves and to keep from getting soaked repeatedly bashing to weather. So, I'm not sure I really need to pull the lead inboard. Besides, a partially furled genoa doesnt point as well anyway with the disturbed leading edge. Pulling the sheet down may help, but you still want the lead set aft so the top of the sail can twist off in strong winds.

Just something I've played around with.

You mentioned having a problem with your furler. Shouldnt you be able to partially furl the sail to any size with a CDI , regardless of sheet lead position?

The furler is working fine. My two main concerns are being able to adjust the trim as the clew moves forward and the fact that when the sail is furled the un-reinforced sections of the sail now have to bear the chafe and pressure of the wind. It seems more apparent as I think about this that the best for the health of the sail is to not use the furler as a reefer even though CDI claims you can reduce sail area upto 70% and still maintain a decent shape as long as you have a "padded" luff. There have been times when I have had to take in 1 reef in the main and keep the 135 but sooner or later I will find myself needing to take more in and this is what I am preparing for. I haven't tested her with the 135 completely furled and just 1 reef in the main but on my previous boat, a Pearson Vanguard, the main didn't have much drive and you found yourself being overpowered by the waves themselves.

I'm working on Commander 94 and am planning on installing longer jib sheet tracks on the toe rail (boat has life lines). I just read/skimmed through the older thread on the subject but still had a question about bending the track. I would like to install a 6' section of 1" stainless steel track (similar I believe but longer than the original track used on these boats). this track seems to be quite stiff and am having doubts of whether it can be bent to follow the rail while installing. I was thinking the schaffer track referenced in the older thread in most cases may be the newer style aluminum extrusion and easier to bend?

Does anyone have experience with bending the 1" ss track? Can this be done?

I very much enjoy reading the technical forum here as I come up with qestions and develop my own plans for the boat.

Best regards,

Mark

Search using google
jibtrack placement [Archive] - Pearson Ariel Association

Thanks Ebb. I skimmed through the thread and see reference to both ss and aluminum track, but nothing specific about the difficulty or ability to bend the stainless track. I'm thinking the comments regarding bending may all be related to the aluminum extruded track.

Still wondering if anyone out there has been able to install 1" ss track on the toe rail or if bending is too difficult.

thanks,

Mark

It's difficult. Guys who talk about it on forums never want to do it again!

They say do it 'incrementally'. Start at an end, fasten, then bend, fasten, etc.
If you are going to do it this way, C-clamp (2 or 3) the end with 6" to 10" long pad sides (like below here) to totally immobilize the T-track.
Having two of these. One for the end, and a second as a clamp moving forward might be all that's needed to mount the track....

One thing to be aware of is that when you have successfully created a cold curve in something as stiff as T-track,
the ends of any metal strip stay straight - impossible to curve. Have to try and fool it.
So thinking about this: I'd have the track a foot or so longer than necessary at both ends. May not have to.... but that will allow the extra track to be temporarily fastened to the rail creating a fair curve in the track that is to remain.
After it's caulked & installed, cut the ends to spec. Add extra closer together fasteners at ends, as keepers. Also install track END stops.

Something to think about:
The rail essentially has to have all holes drilled and chamfered before the CAULKING goes on. How can we do that?

Can see long 3/4" hardwood strips on both sides of the track - and a whole bunch of C-clamps.
First visualize BENDING THE WHOLE TRACK into final position between two temporary walls of oak.
Radius the bottom interior edge of the oak strip on deck to get it to lay flat against the fiberglass rail.
Because the inside of the toerail leans out about 25°, this strip has to be milled into a truncated profile (wider on top) to give the clamp heads some flat and equalized landing - otherwise they'll slip or pull the strips out of line. Another reason to stabilize the wood strips with carpet-tape.
The top of the rail in relation to the outside is approximately 90°. Might need two people to do the initial clamping
Can see carefully sized smaller strips of the same wood that are slipped under the T on both sides
- and are actually used to center and stabilize the T-track on top of the toe-rail.....in the clamping process.

Maybe this is too complicated, maybe not. The actual bending curve of the rail along the A/C cockpit is not too radical.
Whatever style of track, it's still going to be very stiff and quite long.
But T-track is being bent onto many boats, which has no doubt been taken into account by the manufacturer. Not THAT stiff!
Maybe it's left partially annealed to take a set. Imco, our toe-rail curve is too mild for track to keep a bend. It'll spring back when released.
Manufacturers sometimes prebend curves for customers.

T-track, oak strip and spacers is a lot of stuff to keep organized while bending.
Might also carpet tape the wood spacers onto the underside of the T, attempting to keep them attacht.... so that after the holes are drilled AND chamfered (extremely important for waterproofing and keeping salt out), the clamp-up can be disassembled AND put back together again after the caulking is applied, have to see. Clamped back into a fair curve, matched to the new fastener holes. Using butyl tape means you can have squeeze-out without making the disaster polysufide promises. Butyl sealant tape is already 'cured' and squeeze-out comes off clean.***
Keep the track extra long until after complete install. Then cut, dull edges, and buff.
One thing the A/C has going for them is that the rail is bent to a single plane.
Fiberglass** carpet tape is a temporary stickum. Difficult to remove, but it does come off..... Keeps wood from slipping.

Probably have a problem with what you are going to do with the cove inside the rail - how and where to attach nuts and washers. If your track is going aft by the cockpit, you might have to hire a midget to get under there to backup the fasteners properly.
The top of the rail on A338 is pretty thick. You may only going require a regular washer inside there.
Most forum responders say they never had a problem with that. INSIDE of the toerail on top is curved. A thin washer will bend a little when tightened, creating a nut lock. Fastner holes must drill in dead center top of the toerail.
Others have blocked the backup out to make a wider pad for nuts, longer bolts, and better access.

A simple job made complicated??? Maybe it'll go on 'incrementally'. Try it that way first.
Just throwing this out to get discussion going.:D
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................
*The extra longs can temporarily be fastened to the rail FROM THE TOP by tapping for machine screws. The toerail is (on A338) at least 1/4" thick and will tap coarse thread for MS. May not need to do this, but possible. Fill holes later. Maybe tempted to use this as lagging to attach T-track. NO!
**double-sided FIBERGLASS CARPET TAPE refers what the adhesive is backed with . Cheap hardware stores don't stock it. Fiberglass allows tape to be pulled off after you've used it. hardly ever all of it at once - but you can't pull the cheaper stuff off at all. Naptha cleanup. Put it on in pieces, not strips.
***3M makes a very expensive 3/32"h X 1/2"w black butyl tape expressly for installing T-track called WEATHERBAN (Jamestown). Squeeze-out using this stuff will be minimum

Bending SS Jib Sheet Track merged with jib track placement

Harbor Freight sells this tubing roller that with the purchase of an addition die-set will curve rectangular stock on end, like a jib track. This machine is well made and a good value for a backyard workshop.

http://www.harborfreight.com/tubing-roller-99736.html

http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-die-set-66598.html

Looks like a great tool, Ben!
How to hold T-track on its side to fit the groove in the die will take some experimenting.
Maybe hardwood filler strips will work.
Or machine-shop altered rollers (cutting in a deep groove on one side of the appropriate (2)die channels) that'll track the wings of the T.
Or a two part jig attached to the bending machine that holds and feeds the T-track on edge going in and coming out.
Again with woodstrips to guide the track in the channel of the roller die while it's bending. Mild bending, but a lot of pressure.

It would indeed be great to prebend the track so that it can be placed onto the rail without dislodging the butyl tape.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..............................................

It'll be difficult.
Reassembling straight track that requires that hardwood jig, mentioned above, to get it to curve
means that some method is needed to hold the bend over the the toerail with the caulking tape attached
(either to the rail OR the track) AND lowering it without scuffing the tape out of place.

To me that means some kind of temporary longer straight round rod inserted probably in each or every other drilled bolt hole
just to guide track & caulk to locate correctly for the fasteners.
It is important for butyl to get compressed into every chamfer. So some measure of finesse is going to be needed.
Haven't thought this move through yet!

It would seem to me, that unless you're looking for something that will last over 40 years, using aluminum track should be an acceptable solution. I believe that all the AC yachts, where the track was placed on the top of the rail, used aluminum track. For eg, see A-100.

Using Delrin plastic for the die-set on a tubing roller would great for curving aluminum track. The Delrin won't mess up the anodisation on the track. You can buy the Harbor Freight tubing roller at their stores for around $60 without a base and clamp it on a workbench.

Well, there is the POUNDING METHOD dis cussed on the WoodenBoatForum 'Genoa Tracks'.
Probably will work for bronze (RigRite), not s.s.

But at the end of the series of posts there's interesting photos showing heavy blocks of timber with T-track
shapes cut into a surface and used to manually pre-bend the track. Again, this may be easier with bronze
track, while springback could be an issue with stainless. Method seems quick and dirty. But not controlable.

Still think, from the experimental perspective, that if we fill the T-track with strips of a bendy wood like elm
or oak - changing the track into a 4-square bundle - it would be easier to handle when bending stainless track.
This might work in a plain notch as pictured in WoodenBoat. Might help keep the track from getting elbow bends.
Might work in the roller-bender using fitted plain channel dies. Worth a try.

A bundle like this might be bent to the toerail by, say, clamping the center of the bundle solidly in place
on the toe-rail, then pushing the ends in as needed for drilling and clamping. This will also have to be
done incrementally because bundle ends probably will have to be overbent to get holes drilled into the
center of the rail. IE, pushed inboard past the rail and allowing it to springback into line. Dunknow.....

Can bundle be bent? Force it into a channel of 3/4" hardwood strips clamped on either side of the toerail.*

So, what length of track we want....8, 9, 10 feet?
Is it possible to make a doorskin pattern of the curve of the toerail, trace it onto a plank, cut the plank and
reassemble it with the T-track in the middle?
Maybe some routing to custom a form fit. The two sides with the track would be locked together with cleats.
Something like this will be a little ungainly, BUT allows tweeky placement and removal any number of times.
And clean disassembly after track is installed.

T-track on an A/C needs to be bent into a fair curve of no more than 4 or 5 inches 'height' in 8 to10 feet. Seems
feasible that something mild like this can be bent 'live' inside a 10" wide plank, maybe narrower, maybe
even with decent plywood. Now that I measured it off the plans, track 'straight ends' will not be noticed at all
- meaning that the actual length of track can be jigged. It won't be exact, but cheaper....

Another thing, at the back of the boats here, might make it easier to install if the track is put on the deck NEXT to
the toerail. Can block up track off the deck. Track easy to bend with clamps using the toerail Deck is solid glass
(no balsa) along the cockpit. Able to reach fastners, even SEE them!
Just tossing the monkey in here....."for the good of the order".:D
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................
*Think this one gets my vote.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Garhauer's 1" aluminum GENOA T-TRACK may be perfect for the toerail on the A/C. It's twice as strong and 1/3rd
the price of Harkin,etc. It has a 1" radius curve on its bottom which is perfect for the round top of the rail AND
capturing the butyl tape caulk. It compact design looks like it'll be a breeze to 'incrementally' install. Garhauer has
available s.s Genoa Track $$$ (of the same profile, I believe) but is special order. Seems like AL is perfectly adequate.

Thanks for the input. I think if I put any additional track down on the rail I'll be going the route of using the extruded aluminum product from Schaefer. Although, if I don't end up adding more to the toe rail and will be only putting down straight sections of track I'll use the stainless steel material which will match my existing track and the cars will all be interchangeable then.

The thought of adding additional track came about last fall after sailing the newly purchased boat a couple times and finding I could not get enough tension along the leech of the 110% genoa to keep the top from luffing when sailing close to the wind. At this point I am thinking I may be able to get close to the proper angle for the jib sheet by installing a barber haul off the foot of the aft life line stanchion. At the very least I should be able to get closer to proper trim and would like to spend some time sailing the boat before I dive into too many changes.

regards,

Mark

"Tis this desire of bending all things to our own purpoises
which turns them into confusuion
- and is the chief source of every error in our lives."
Sarah Fielding

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ebb

"Tis this desire of bending all things to our own purpoises
which turns them into confusuion - and is the chief source of every error in our lives."
Sarah Fielding

---

Well put . .

If you look at my May 8, 2011 post you will see photos of Francine's long jib tracks mounted on the rail. They are aluminum send I am very happy with them I got them from Gauhauer. The yard ninstalled them was not a big deal.

Type that into the (UN) Advanced Search box up top here.

Or if that doesn't work: go to Gallery search, cursor 'Beginning'
and I think it's 3 pages deep.

I just installed a floating jib lead set up and it is working really well. I looked at all of the posts on track placement They were very useful - mostly in convincing me that I didn't want to go through all the effort to install a toe rail t track and inboard tracks. After recoring the entire deck I wanted to come up with a solution that required drilling as few holes in the boat as possible. I've used a similar set up on a Santa Cruz 52 and a class 40 and figured that it might work on the Gail Grace too. I'm flying a 155% headsail on the furler. The first time I pulled it out I realized that the locking foot block I installed on the deck near the back of the cockpit was not going to work. I had to turn it somewhere further forward so I put a snatch block on a stanchion base and the lead was almost perfect but I had no adjustment. I have since replaced the snatch blocks with a couple of Lewmar 80mm blocks that work nicely. Below are pictures of the floating lead as installed. It consists of a short length of Dyneema spliced around a friction ring, The tail of the line is spliced with a loop and an adjustable splice. On the top of the friction ring there is a piece of bungee attached to the upper lifeline to keep it from banging around when it is not under load. I can flip it inside the lifeline and use an inhauler to the cabin top winch to trim smaller jibs inboard.

Attachment 9907
Jib sheet lead thru adjustable lead, back to turning block and to winch

Attachment 9908
Turning block to winch

Attachment 9911
Adjustable lead set at low position

Attachment 9910
Adjustable lead set to high position (around 13" of difference)

Attachment 9909
Adjustable splice

Attachment 9912

Here is the set up in action. I think I will need to install a folding padeye on the deck a couple of feet aft of the stanchion to get it perfect.

Attachment 9913