Balance advice and input

Here is a question for all of you captians that have really loaded up yer boat a gone sailing.

I have been trying to balance all of the permanent fixtures we've been tabbing into 113 with the rationale that onboard stores can be moved around from locker to locker to help keep her on her lines. I'm planning on installing a water tank and another locker right about where an A-4 would have been installed. This proposed tank will be roughly 20 to 25 gallons, so let's say 200+ pounds. An atomic four with fuel tank has to be 400+ pounds wet. So far it appears to be a net plus. Except-I know a 4 stroker in the well and a couple of portable gas cans is 110+ pounds out on the end of a lever instead of tucked up tight behind the bulk of the ballast. Chuck a pair of 60-watt solar panels and a wind vane way back there and, well, what can I expect?

I will have a 20-30 gallon water tank up in the v-berth area(yes, I am planning on replacing the monster Cape Dory tank I added just two years ago) and a 15-20 gallon holding tank. That comprises the liquid ballast minus rum, tequila, beer and a little wine. A manson supreme, a claw and associated hardware chain and rope are additional static ballast forward of the mast.

Also intend to add a couple of 2" scuppers to the cockpit draining aft and discharging alongside the outboard collar. I always fear having just as much incidental water coming in as going out. So, a grated cockpit floor will help keep feet above any water that finds its way back up the scupper 'pipes'-hopefully.

Yes, this is an ambiguous question but nowhere else is there a better place to post such a question than here. Can this work? Am I crazy? Have you ever woke up in a phone booth with your underwear in your pocket? STRIKE THAT!!!

I did the same with revival #50. A 20 gallon tank where the inboard would be and 2-6 gallon fuel tanks with OB aft. I did not have a forward tank or as much ground tackle as you. Revival 'sqautted' aft somewhat. I think you may be OK with the added weight forward.

Faith in cruising trim is just loaded all over. Really does nice things for the feel of the boat in big seas IMHO. ;)

We carry a 13gal tank aft, with (at that time) a 66# 2 stroke in the well, AND a 30# 3hp dingy motor, BBQ, & solar panel hanging off of the stern rail.

That was offset by the OE water tank in the bow, 19 gal water bladder amidships (under the stbd settee) AND the Manson and 60' of 5/16" up forward.

Funny thing is she rode on her lines well. I guess that and the ~500# of gear worked out pretty well. The only time we noticed stern squat was when one (or both) of us would slide aft in the cockpit. That happened when I would 'sail lazy' (backrest up against the mainsheet used as a headrest...) or when the dog decided he simply HAD to occupy the forward end of the cockpit. :D

Not that you asked any of that... FWIW I think your plan sounds good to me Tony. As long as you are not going with a big ole 4 stroke....

I would like to figure out (as numerous posts here will attest) how to safely move my fuel supply to a tank under the cockpit where you are planning to put your water tank. I had bought, and then sold, a Triton monel tank but would have had to split the deck off of the hull to get it below. :eek:

If I can get used to the Tohatsu I may just cut my fuel supply in half (we carried 4 5gallon cans lashed to the pinrail boards, and the 13 gallon tank aft. This 33 gallons would last us quite a while even with the 2 stroke, and the dingy 2 stroke, and the generator).

If I could put something like 15 gallons (or the original Ariel 13 gallon tank) below decks and carry 6 gallons aft that would probably do just fine... even heading back down the outter islands where fuel is not always handy.

Thanks Captains! That is just the stuff I was looking for. If I can just get her to sit and not lean. :eek:

Craig, was that 500# of equip before the canned goods and necessities? Heck, I'd be tickled with that! And I don't know what nauseates me quicker, the incessant smell of gasoline or diesel fuel? I'd just as soon keep both outside in such a confined area. Man, you're tough as nails! I do like the sound of your 'sailing lazy' manuever. One day...

Frank, did you find 20 gallons of water enough for cooking, drinking and bathing? I'd have to reread your posts about the trip. I'd like to error on the side of caution. I'll blow the foam off a couple, yes sir, but I truely love a glass of water.

If this thread gets enough posts I'll throw up some photos of the modifications. Ok, that was uncalled for. They will come for free...

No, the way too much food was counted in that. We took, as many do, enough food for a year. It is funny how even with whatever you have onboard you always seem to want / need more. For instance, we left with 10, 2# vaccum sealed bags of rice. We go through a lot of rice, but we came back with 2 or 3 bags. Funny thing is we added much pre-seasoned rice as well as brown rice and long rice. If I were to go out tinight, I bet there is STILL enough grub to eat for a month. Last few days of meeals would be pretty bland... but it is there.

"If you don't have it, you can't eat it." That was a post shared by Eric "Starcrest" (here and on SailFar) before he died. His point was that your provisions ought to meet your needs, satisfy your hunger. WHen you try to make your hunger conform to the wrong stores it can be dissatisfying.


Again, having posted much with little answer... :p

Rose asked 2 things of the trip, one was that she be able to have a cool glas of water to drink (the Engle fridge made life much better for all). She also asked to take 'some books'. She and I are both bibliophiles, My library (including reference, tables, etc) fit in the Starboard side fiddle. Maybe 20 books in all. Rose's was the fiddles on both side forward, a waterproof bag in the v-berth, and some time a box or two in such unlikely places as under the cockpit on top of the battery boxes, :eek:

All our clothes fit in a couple of sailbags.

Provisioning is an art I am totally unfamiliar with, I regretfully admit. For the last 15years I have eaten on the fly, grabbed a bite later, choked down whatever was handy. You get the picture-far from healthy by any stretch of the meaning. So that is a thread, no, a chapter on its own!

Maybe I'm just making too much of this. One person says these hulls are heavy, forgiving hulks and the next says they become lively when you step aboard just be removing the auxillary lead pigs. Zoltan of long ago lore surely must have had his Commander loaded to the gills. And wouldn't a fair share of those stores have gone into the cockpit lockers just by default of having a smaller cabin than the Ariels? I'm not a racer. However, I do think it is just plain good sense to tweak sail trim to keep moving as efficiently as possible without it becoming an arduous, dreaded chore. how much does hull balance affect that? I can't remember off hand, did Zoltan carry an outboard?

I haven't dedicated too much space for clothing figuring most of them would reside in bags minus a few nice hanging items and a hand full of readily accessable changes in a locker and drawer. And a multi-duty wet locker uner the main hatch of course. And books...whew! I can't wait to read a book cover to cover uninterupted by some 'emergency' at work.

I do sometimes get into this mode of thought where I think keeping the engle on 'freezer' for ice cream, cubes, and cooling water would be ideal. Not using it for food stuff proper at all. Then I thnk that's just silly-I might just as well stay at home on land then.

I'll be going with 40+ gallons of water on Revival #2. We expect to be 'away' more once we set off on her. Water goes a long way with us tho. Salt water shower with a quick fresh water rinse when complete. Laundry the same.Final rinse in salt water is followed by a quick spray of fresh...then final ring-out. I'll be putting the second 20+ gallon tank where the head currently resides. These ole gals seem to carry weight well.A bit of thought to placement is all you'll need.

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Maybe I'm just making too much of this. One person says these hulls are heavy, forgiving hulks and the next says they become lively when you step aboard just be removing the auxillary lead pigs....

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Both are correct. I noticed a significant differnce when I removed Faith's lead pigs. I only wish I had listened to Bill (and others) and done so back when I was racing her. There is a significant differnce. The nice thing about the geneus of the wineglass is that the deeper you load her, the less of a diference it makes. If you look at a 'light' Ariel she will float 2 - 2.5" 3" higher then the bottom of the 'scribed' boot stripe. Faith had her boot stripe raised by 1.25" (IIRC) and floated pretty much on the new line when loaded with a silly quantity of stuff and stores.

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Zoltan of long ago lore surely must have had his Commander loaded to the gills. And wouldn't a fair share of those stores have gone into the cockpit lockers just by default of having a smaller cabin than the Ariels? I'm not a racer. However, I do think it is just plain good sense to tweak sail trim to keep moving as efficiently as possible without it becoming an arduous, dreaded chore. how much does hull balance affect that? I can't remember off hand, did Zoltan carry an outboard?

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Hopefully the sale pictures from Ebay are still here somewhere (if not let me know and I can dig around my old hard drive). Yes, there was an outboard on 'The Way' of Zoltan fame. IIRC it was a Mariner, back when the Mariners were the same as the Yamaha (maybe enduro). The cowl looked to be high enough to be a 2 cyl, so probably a 6 or 8 hp. Something else I listed from his Ebay add was his equipment list. It was silly long. Dive gear, 6 or 8 sails, everything you can think of. I am quite sure he carried more on his Comander then Rose and I did aboard Faith, with the exception of water and books. ;)

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how much does hull balance affect that?

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One final thought (yea right) :rolleyes: Stern squat is a real drag. Especally when over powered (like when we delivered Ariel Spirit with a 9.9 OB) or when crew move aft to humor their four legged Master at Arms. Once you get the aft edge of the outboard well in the water you are really going to see the speed drop.

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Originally Posted by frank durant

I'll be going with 40+ gallons of water on Revival #2. We expect to be 'away' more once we set off on her. Water goes a long way with us tho. Salt water shower with a quick fresh water rinse when complete. Laundry the same.Final rinse in salt water is followed by a quick spray of fresh...then final ring-out. I'll be putting the second 20+ gallon tank where the head currently resides. These ole gals seem to carry weight well.A bit of thought to placement is all you'll need.

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Cool Frank.

Where ya gonna put it? Maybe a couple of 40l bladders under both settees?

WRT water use.... Rose, Peter, and my best was 9 gallons in 11 days. That was 'all in' no additional water, juice, or soda. Ok, maybe one glass of 'bilge wine' a night, but nothing else. :D

A 20 where the inboard would reside...a 20+ where the head currently resides (I'm moving it aft) I'll have a rain-fill for the aft tank from the sunshade as well. Life doesn't have to be complicated :)

I would be very interested to know how you like your A/C to sit. The Princess naturally wanted to squat aft and I felt her performance sailing to weather suffered as a result. I added ballast to her nose until I thought she "felt right". (Pretty scientific approach, eh?) To really do it right one should speed check against a similar boat, sail just aft and to windward of the other boat at different points of sail and note the speed difference, then shift some weight around and try it again.
I found what I think to be The Princess's proper lines by compromising between; 1, drawings in the manual and pictures in the gallery.
2, watching water run to the midship scuppers from fore and aft.
3, the trim I "felt" was right after sailing the boat and shifting sand bags.
Here is how she sits in her slip with no one aboard;
37" from water surface to flat surface of the stem fitting.
27" from water surface to top of toe rail at the aft lower chainplate.
26" from water surface to top of toe rail at aft corner.
The Princess is rigged as a day sailor and carries no tanks, provisions, fuel, etc. so I'm sure she floats higher than most Ariels, but the proportion between the fore and aft measurement should still indicate the attitude .
If you get a chance, take a fore and aft measurement and post it along with some defense of your position.

According to the sail calculator page ( http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html ), the lbs/inch for an Ariel is 529. IIRC, that means it takes 529 pounds to sink her one inch on her waterline. Due to the wineglass hull shape flaring out as you go up, it will take more than that to get an Ariel to sink a second inch. How much, I dunno... but there's a number you can use to ballpark how much your stores might sink your boat...

If you look at the hull down in the cabin, the wide point is well aft of the main bulkhead, about 36" I think (am not on the boat right now to measure). Gear in the lazarette and cockpit lockers goes a long way towards making the stern squat. It's that fine rump these Ariel's have. :) They seem to want to go down by the stern well before they'll do that by the bow. With that in mind, I made the v-berth bunk 2.5" lower at the forward end of the boat (I hate sleeping with my feet elevated). I'm putting water and batteries and as much heavy stuff as possible forward of the midpoint of the boat to combat stern squat.

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Originally Posted by c_amos

Once you get the aft edge of the outboard well in the water you are really going to see the speed drop.

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So Lucky Dawg would be "squatting" here?

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IMHO Yup :-)

Keep in mind, you're under sail too. Maybe the headsail is pulling your bow up?

Here's a "squatter". :rolleyes:

(Though, I must say, Sea Glass sails beautifully - never had a problem with weather helm.)

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...1&d=1213501975

From my experience the boat will sail much better if you get that bow down a couple of inches. Throw some sand bags in the chain locker and see for yourself. I have around 300 lbs of batteries in the chain locker and no weight from an outboard in the stern.
The owner of C299 just put a Parson electric outboard that is much lighter than his old 9hp. He put his batteries in the nose and is happier with the way she sails. he still squats more than The Princess but its much better
I know conventional wisdom says to keep the weight out of the ends, but the better performance is well worth carrying the extra weight.
Mike
C227

So... 240 lbs of tube sand in the chain locker and the aft end of the engine cutout is flowing free and easy. That must balance my 200lbs sitting far aft in the cockpit. Not sure about sailing performance. Sailed in light winds on Saturday and Monday and didn't notice a dramatic difference. Will be curious to see in a blow.

Below, that is a water flowing under the stern at about 5 kts - previously, the laz would usually have water sloshing around inside. Hence my bored out drain hole idea that ultimately didn't solve the issue.

(10/25/11 edit: Based on 10/24 sail in a pretty stiff breeze, I think the ride is nicer. Seems to cut through the water rather than "belly" through. The difference in ride is only a nuance, but my top speed seemed to be up 0.2-0.3 kts. The outboard cut-out continues to ride above the water even in a blow. Not a bad low-tech performance upgrade for under $14.00)

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