Here CEILI, 1966 Commander #256, can be seen taken a highway rest on her journey to N.E. North Carolina from Falmouth, ME.
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Here CEILI, 1966 Commander #256, can be seen taken a highway rest on her journey to N.E. North Carolina from Falmouth, ME.
Congratulations, Chance! You got your Commander after all! Looking forward to seeing it next season when I travel through your parts.
Stephan
Nice boat - nice trailer too! Was that included in your purchase or did you get it for the haul?
Stephan,
Thanks! I too, am most definately looking forward to you passing these parts with your Commander 35 (Alberg 35) next year. Don't forget, I want to crew for you at some point along your voyage. There are many cruisers coming through Elizabeth City, NC. They depart the Chesapeake Bay, heading South and most opt to take the Dismal Swamp canal route into the Albemarle Sound for the southerly route. Elizabeth City has great maritime hospitality and offers 48 hour free tie up at the town's waterfront! Most times you can stay longer if their isn't a demand for space to accomodate travelers. Also, if the tie ups are full, there is also a marina across the way (Pelican Marina) and there is also (preferred) great anchorage in the area for those that want to drop the hood and row ashore for a bite to eat.
Mike,
Thanks. No, the trailer didn't come with her. I had her made for a previous boat we had, a 1973 Cape Dory 25. In order to accomodate the extra draft of the Commander, I cut all six screw jack supports off and welded in new ones with greater height. I used heavier guage pipe (schedule 80) vice what Triad trailers used. I only wish I would have made the new supports a bit less tall. I still have eight inches of upward adjustability but as you can see, am nearly bottomed out as she is currently configured. Which means....when I get to the hull, I won't be able to complete her without her being off the trailer, which means I'll be under the daily fee rate of the local yard.
I plan on making the trailer available for rent next year after I have Ceili back in the water.
Respectfully,
Chance
Chance, I'd be delighted to have you on board. Next season will be an exciting time for me.
I'll keep the board updated while I'm cruising through the lakes etc and hope to rendezvous with some of the old timers here. Commander Pete, I have plans to hang around New York some time then, too. Hope to find you!
Chance
nice trailer... can we talk you into posting a drawing package?:)
Hello all,
I'll use this thread to maintain progress on the work I'm embarking upon with our Commander. To commence, I have focused my efforts in the stern section and will progressively move forward. For now, this is what I'm doing:
1) Fill over 3 dozen holes (drilled by PO's).
2) Repair / restore fiberglass that was cut out for previous outboard motor tiller.
3) Remove and replace backstay chainplate and knee.
4) Fabricate a gas can shelf on each side of the motor well
5) Incorporate a transom stringer, that will double as the aft shelf support
6) Recore and skin the lazarette locker cover
What I'm missing and in need of your help to locate a source is the following:
1) Rubber gasket for the knife edge seal for the lazarette cover and forward hatch.
2) One (1) clamshell ventilator (aka: extractor). I have only one of the two originals. A PO installed a PERKO, which as you can imagine is a hideous match.
Heres a couple of photos, and more to follow as progress is made
Respectfully,
Chance Smith
Camden, NC
Hello All,
Here's a question I have been pondering for the future winch mounting task I will be tending to:
How are winches mounted to a solid wood island? I have been walking the marinas and have identified some very shapely (tapered both to the top and others tapered to the bottom), but don't understand how you would mount the winches to the wood and then the wood islands (base of the block of shapely wood) to / through the deck. I do remember someone once suggested through bolting with all thread, but I don't think that would work on a tapered base, plus I think you need FH fasteners for the winch.
Would bolts with nuts even be required? Could long wood screws be used to fasten both?
Any body out there have wooded winch bases they have disassembled and reinstalled that could shed some light on this for me?
Thanks,
Chance
Chance,
I am about to do away with my aft lazarette, send me a message with your address and I'll send down the clam shell thingys, I'll also try my best to remove the gasket material with out damaging it. It probably won't be enough, but perhaps you can add up some good sections. Too bad you already went through all the work of recoring the lid... I could have just sent you my whole assembly. How are your hinges?
long wood screws(like 2") will work great for your winch towers. Be sure to predrill with the proper size drill bit. If you are laminating the towers from like 1" wood stock, try to get through the first 2 layers. Also be sure to use wood screws, not long sheet metal screws. The thread pitch and depth are different as well as the shaft taper.
Admiral Bill may not have seen this thread.
I believe a gasket set is available at cost from the Association that replicates the original.
And on another thread here a poster shows us another version of the 'knife edge' gasket that has a compressible foam 'rope' on the top. Looks very interesting.
Bill,
Ariel #231, I somehow overlooked your post and didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you. Hmmm.., what specifically were you interested in as for the trailer drawing? I'm thinking you want measurements, but of what specifically? I can take measurements, but of the entire profile might take a bit of time. Plus, I have no idea how to post a sketch. Maybe I could take a closeup digital photo of a sketch depicting specific dimensions? Are you planning on modifying an existing trailer, building one from scratch? How soon till you do either or are you mainly curious?
Respectfully,
Chance
Hi Chance, sorry, I had a reply all written out today and must have failed to hit "submit". The winch itself is attached to the wood base by 8 wood screws though the base of the winch. If you remove those and the winch from the wood base, a loooong bronze carriage bolt goes all the way through and into the deck where it is secured with a big washer and a nut. Also, the wood winch base is attached to the coaming by 4 wood screws through the coaming.
Bill, See Post # 11 on The Mephisto Cat's thread...
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...ead.php?t=1552
For trailer / Cradle dimensions. This may give you what you need...
chance & rico
i'm mostly curious about the dimensions of the frame members, the ratings on your axle setup and the tongue load of the system when ready to tow... it's getting harder to prep a boat for the season while in the boatyard (DEM talked about treating city water as a hazardous material until some measure of sanity prevailed). Building a trailer may be in my future a season or two down the road. I've already welded up a set of jackstands suitable for trailer installation.
cheers,
bill@ariel231 :)
As a curmudgeon there are certain responsibilities that cannot be ignored.
Take the first photo in this thread.
Imagine Ceilli sitting on a FRAME with jackstands.
Imagine that frame sitting on the trailer.
A duo.
Why couldn't a transport trailer be designed for Ariel/Commanders
- and for that matter any number of 8' wide keeled sailboats -
upon which the boat on a 'standard' frame could be loaded.
How might it be loaded?
The frame would be lifted with bottle jacks - and the trailer carefully, by repositioning the jacks, backed under the frame.
With the boat on its frame - all 6000# of it - lifting and lowering would be equally..... careful.
With some development screwjacks might be permanently attached to the frame, or perhaps brackets provided for rentals to be secured. Other endless possibilities.
Wouldn't it be possible for a bunch of sailors to get together and design something like this?
This is of course only for transport, not self-launching.
Would it give versatility to storing or working on the boat at any location
and moving it to a harbor for strap launching?
If there were a single trailer made specifically for hauling A/C boats with jackstands on a frame, then that trailer might be shared by all who wanted to borrow it.
Of course who licenses it, does the maintenance and researches the codes and so forth
is another kettle.
Just an idea....
Ebb,
Many moons ago I helped A-243's Capt move her. It might have found great favor in Rube Goldberg's eyes.... but it worked.
The boat was loaded with a travel lift, but to remove it we anchored the trailer (with a danforth) and used bottle jacks to lift the cradle and place short pieces of black iron pipe under if. We then lowered it onto the pipe and SSSSSLLLLlllooooowwwwlllllyyyyyy...... drove the trailer out from under it. The cradle was then blocked as it rolled clear.
Not recommending anyone try this at home, just saying it is possible.
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/a...1&d=1164132891
I finally got the backstay chainplate knee epoxied in and will follow with glass layup. I performed an initial dry run and marked where the five bolts will be. I then drilled these locations out to 3/4 of an inch and filled with high density epoxy (now seen in the photo). Later when I conduct the final mounting and bolting in of the new chainplate, I will redrill through the epoxy and glass, thus sealing off the Okoume marine ply from any potontial water intrusion. For me, I can finally say I have made a bit of progress in the right direction. So far I have been grinding, sanding, probing, and the likes.
Commander 227: I posted a reply to your gallery page, in regards to extreme interest in the hinges, clam shell ventilators and any gasket you can salvage. Thanks, Chance Smith, 472 N. Trotman Road, Camden, NC, 27921
Craig, Amazing! Can see that a longer frame might have made bottle jacking easier. Must have been a bit hairy... have to write the book on the subject!
Nice clean filleting there, Chance!
Years ago I found my favorite fillet tool in a take-one bucket at the Buttercreme Bakery in Napa.
It's a bit small, a precise piece of plastic maybe a little bigger than 2 1/2" square with a different radius on each corner. Translucent plastic like nylon with very SHARP edges that drag very clean coves. Never understood why a bakery would give away something like this or what anyone who bought their jelly donuts there would need one for.
No plastics supply store has anything like it.
Okay, the cockpit has seemed to shrink. Competeing for the same space, my little body, masses of tools, and related stuff, shop vac, trash, and everthing else! Someday, I too, will be able to enjoy the breadth of the Commander's cockpit, but for now, I'll just be contect on working on her and putting new life into her.
Ebb, Thanks for the compliment. I know exactly what your talking about. The "special tool", though I have several, they don't have a great history as yours does. For me, it does pay to know when to stop fiddling and leave the fillet well enough alone. The more I mess with them, the worse they seem to get. The right consistancy of the thickened expoxy is a big factor as well.
Respectfully,
Chance
Here's another view. The axles are each rated for 3500 pounds, for a 7K total GVWR. I utilize a weight distribution hitch and load the tongue upwards of 800 pounds (safely only possible with this type of hitch system). The keel rest on 2 1/2 inches of treated wood, instead of dirrectly on the iron channel. If I were to weld all the tubing and braces again for the screw jacks, I would have made them six inches shorter, well at least the amidship and forward ones. The aft, I would shorten only four inches, as I already have threads exposed. She towes well. Now it's semi permanently parked, waiting for her vessel to play catch up with some much needed TLC, and structural repairs.
Thanks for the details... Triad makes a good trailer. they'll be on my short list when the time comes...:)
Here is the knee glassed in. Today, I filled the weave with unthicked epoxy and also worked in other areas of the lazarette locker playing recovery from the myriad of holes PO's put in her.
Another area of the locker that I have been slowly making right.
Now, the question is: where do I sit?
Hello folks,
Yes, it's been awhile, I know. One would think that lively in N.E. North Carolina it would be epoxy working weather year around, but..... it's been cold these past couple of months. We'll in the low 40's and 30's, which makes me resort to planning and waiting for warmer weather to press on with my work in store for "Ceili", Commander #256.
Attached is what I have elected to do to modify the forward bulkhead. I choose to bridge the top to for a couple of reasons, I believe it gives a more finished appearance and like the profile better, and secondly it provides a source to reinforce and further stiffen the foredeck area.
I have been addressing other areas as well....like filling in the old cockpit instrument holes following the removal of said gear, filling in holes in the hull left by two transducers I have removed, as well as a garboard drain.
I'll try to keep a better update for those who may be interested in my progress.
As to you all, thank you all for the continued inspiration, expertise and resource how to information. Quite frankly, the two most beautiful boats ever produced by Pearson, Commanders and Ariels.
Here's an inside view of the closing off of two old instrument holes. I tapered both sides and worked at patching from both sides. I choose this way so that my scarf taper would not have to be so big on just one side.
Very nice work Chance, It seems that bridging the forward bulkhead is so simple that Pearson would have done this to brace the foredeck. This is something I had planned on doing also. If you decide to add a Sampson post the deck is now well braced for one.
Carl,
Thank you. I believe the reason why Pearson did not do the same in regards to bridging the forward bulkhead, comes down to economics mainly. I'm sure they (Pearson Yachts) like all others build a specific model with a price point and corresponding profit margin. Easy to do, add the bridge or do it from the onset, but it takes that much more time and material for what many may consider "little gain". Just like other areas of our fine Alberg designed Commanders and Ariels, when Carl was commisioned to design a specific model, he most likely was given parameters, final production cost, being one of them. I think the fitment would have been problematic if they had added the full forward bulkhead and then attempted to lower the deck / cabin roof assembly. Look at other areas of our vessels and you'll see, and like others will attest to, where fitment of ajoining components has a lot to be desired and could have been much better.
But then there are us on this site and all those who seek to "Better" or "Improve" or are striving for the ultimate in "Attention to the Details" and annointed perfectionest that are equally talented to do what Pearson and their factory boat yard assembly builders did not do. It really comes down to "time" and "money" and they are both inter-related.
I'm sure Mr. Alberg and all the folks who contributed to our aging vessels birth would be amazed, and surprised that "our" Commanders and Ariels have such a dedicated following, with owners / Captains that desire the very best for their corresponding "sailing yacht".
To all those on this site, I salute you for your inspiration, talent and most of all sharing your expertise and thoughts.
For reasons I now would never do again, I have been addressing the rotten core under the mast step, from you guessed it, inside the cabin. What was I thinking? My next recore of any sort will always rely on gravity and working upright, if...I have a choice in the matter.
This area of my rehab has been slow going, and an adventure to say the least.
I have at this time, addressed all rotten core in the cabin roof, and am in the final stages of glassing the inner skin. Here's what I call my arsenal of "spring sticks" in use.
congratulations on an impossible job!
On A338, was lucky and only had the mast step area to redo.
But I saw then that the inside of the sandwich was very thin.
If I had to do it now I would make a version of what you have BUT as support for the thin interior layer in case it wanted to sag or tear or something.
THEN do the recore from the top.
NICE wood for props there. buddy!:D
Ebb, your are so right. At times I contemplated on how I was going to tackle the recore from down under and looking back, should have kicked myself before removing the inner skin. All along it would have been so much more pleasant (if you can call the recore process pleasant) to do it from the outside.
Here is two shots of a smaller recore area I had to address due to rotten balsa core. The cause: (like so many other areas I'm taking care of) an inproperly mounted cabin top winch.
I decided to address an area that I wasn't satisfied with:
1st: I felt the forward hatch was not rigid enough to support the weight of an adult standing on it.
2nd: There seemed to be more flex in the hatch cover than I preferred
3rd: I never liked the translucent area of the forward hatch. It shows the glass fibers and as it has aged, appears as though the fibers are lacking resin. I know that my modification will eliminate the "light" that would otherwise come through, but it's a compromise I'm willing to settle with.
So.... I incorporated 3/8 " end grain balsa core and an inside lay up of three layers of cloth. The hatch pictured and that I'll be using, is one I salvaged off the 1965 Commander. This hatch had a heavier (thicker) glass layup to start with and had less damage to repair and no previous owner's holes to repair.
Chance,
Did you salvage any inner window frames? I'm in need of one.
Mike
Hello Mike,
Yes, I can supply you with an inner portlight frame. Give me the details of where to ship (address) and I'll have it off to you this coming week.
Happy Easter!
You do beautiful work there Chance.
Somebody's going to come along here and discover that recoring CAN be done successfully from the inside - hanging by your thumbs. And there are good reasons for the choice. You certainly show that a perfect job of work is possible.
I admire your choice of core as well.
Fits with the time and age of the boat and is more in keeping with restoration. imco
Nice to see.
Thanks for the photos!
Ebb,
Thank you for the compliments. My inspiration and desire for quality work comes from a couple areas: a personal interest in attention to detail, the fact that I enjoy working at fixing, making better, and any thing that involves my little wood shop, now gone fiberglass. But if it weren't for folks like you, Tim Lackey and so many others, and a passion for sailing, I doubt that I would have ever agreed to undertake such a project.
Below are two photos of an area that I have been also addressing. I discovered that the lower perimeter of the Commander's motor well had a significant thickness of gelcoat. It seems that when the layup was started in the mold and the gelcoat was put in, they (Pearson layup workers) allowed too much gelcoat to collect in this area. The tell tale sign of trouble and which ultimately led me to grind away over an inch of this area was cracks around the entire perimeter of the motor well.
Gel coat is good, but it's downfall is realized when excess thickness occurs. It's too brittle and of not much substance. This is why I had massive cracking along the lower edge of the motor well.
I didn't reach glass until I ground away over 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of blue gel coat. The second photo shows my rebuild of this area. Though not complete yet, I'm nearing the final stages and will once again be good to go.
Chance:
I have to do a similar job to my motorwell/hull contour.
Any tips on producures and specific techniques would be most welcome. In particular how did you maintain that nice sharp edge between the side of the motor well and where it mets the hull? I have thought of a few ideas but would love to hear what you did.
Nice job,
Andrew
Andrew,
Thanks for your interest.
I used MAS epoxy, Biaxial cloth, milled fiberglass fibers, and West System high density 404 filler.
After grinding and establishing a good base:
Coat area with unthickened epoxy
Fill low spots, and make the roundover contour uniform with thickened epoxy and milled glass fibers
Sand smooth and apply three layers of Biaxial cloth
Sand rough / high spots
Apply thickened epoxy with milled glass fibers
Continue numerous applications
Once you get close / back to the area where you'll want the crisp sharp edge, start applying your mixture with a little more grace
Trick here: Go beyound where you want the edge to be and then grind back down to the hull.
Trick: for the corners, use a 1 inch wooden dowel rod and 60 grit paper. This will make a perfectly shaped /contoured corner. Sure you'll be using hand power, and it will take a bit of time, but it really comes out nice.
When I'm grinding, I use a 40 grit flapper disc wheel to perform the grunt of the work. Then transition to a 5 inch random orbital sander with 60 grit, followed by 80 grit and then 100 grit. Final sanding will be done by hand with a block of wood, my dowel (described above) and 120 grit. Lastly two more coats of unthickened epoxy, light sand and ready for paint.
I had initially thought of building a form, but decided for numerous reasons against it. Please keep in mind that it took me numerous applications to rebuild the corner edge that I had removed when I initially ground away all the cracked gel coat. I really could not believe how much gel coat was there. I kept asking myself when will I reach glass? No kidding!
Hope this helps.
Chance,
Since you are back to working this area, The new larger knee you put in, Have you given any thought to this interfering with engine clearance? The reason I ask is mine seems to interfered with the clearance and had a large "chunk" of glass knock out which of course allowed water in and will now have to be replaced.
Carl
Hi Carl,
That's a good point. I noticed that when I was examining the original backstay chain plate knee, that it too, had an area that was cut with a handsaw to make a relief for the outboard. Esentially exposing the plywood underneath, not to mention looking terrible. Of course when Pearson built her, the top of the knee was not fully encapsulated with glass and epoxy either, so any water leaking in from the chain plate cover would and did easily saturate the plywood.
As for my new knee I glassed in, actually it's probably only 1/4 of an inch larger for and aft, meaning I really didn't go forward off the transom much more than original. I did however extend her down about and inch and half (my measurements are best guesses at this point) beyound original. I generally kept the same profile.
The previous owner had a 9 HP outboard, way too big. This explains why they hacked other areas as well.
I will placing a 6 HP Tohatsu in her, (for size and weight considerations) and believe this will fit just fine, with no clearance issues.
What size of outboard did or do you have that there were clearance issues with the knee?
Thanks for the input. As you well know, any little project always seems to creep in size and sometimes can reveal a magnitude of challenges to overcome.
I also have not heard of any others out there that have had clearance problems if using an appropriate size (smaller) outboard.
Keep me posted on your efforts to restore you knee.
Chnace:
Thanks for the how to. Will come in very handy if I ever find the time to get back to the boat!
Andrew
Here's the profile template I made out of bass wood. I'll be taking this to a shop to have duplicated out of 3/8 inch thick 316 stainless steel plate. I'll keep you posted and post a photo when that phase is done.
Some will also notice another modification I made to the forward hatch cover. I didn't care for how the original latch bolt was attached (you know, through bolted. Plus the FH fasteners were backwards. If you ever removed the piece you know what I'm talking about). My solution was to omit the through bolt phase and instead I made this mounting pad that I tapped to accept the #12 FH machine screws. I think it cleans up the whole area and will leave the top exterior of the hatch free from any fasteners.
Thanks for the package Chance, I really appreciate it!
Mike, your welcome.
Here's a photo after having removed the garboard drain from the hull and have laid the glass to fill the hole. I am no in the final fairing stage and will post a photo when that phase is done. I also removed two transducers and filled those corresponding holes as well. I will drill and install one transducer for the depth instrument later in a better location than the one that was formerly.
I'm consulting those of you who have had chrome work done on your deck hardware and who were very satisfied with the results of who performed the chroming service for you.
I have my stemhead fitting and the stern light cover that needs re-chroming and would like recommendations on who I should contact and ultimately send these parts to.
For those of you who would be willing to refer me, please provide the name of the chroming company, their phone number (address would be of help too) and perhaps a point of contact.
Thanks for your assistance.
Here is the two areas I have finally finished and will prime and paint later when other areas are ready as well.
Hey Chance - no one bit at this yet - I used Dynamic Custom Chrome http://www.dynamiccustomchrome.com/index2.html in the Detroit area. Don't know that I would bend over backwards to refer to them. My little job was extremely low on their priority list and it took a good while to turn it around. If nothing else, you might use them for a cost comparison. I think Rico (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...?t=1803&page=4 - see post 19) and C227 (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...?t=1803&page=4 - see post 71) both had recent chrome work done and seemed happy with their purveyors.
Shipping heavy metal stuff outside of your area could get costly. If you can find people into restoring old cars and motorcycles, they'll know. Welders would be another good source. They'll know the platers and their prices locally.
Environmental regulations have made plating a very difficult and expensive business to be in. Recent generation cars don't use as much chrome either. I've been told that there used to be many choices in Baltimore area and now its down to 1 or 2 in all of Maryland. I'll dig up an address for you but I'll bet you can find a resource in NC.
Chance,
I was very happy with my plater. Easy to work with small hole in the wall shop. One of my inner port light frames did take a ride through his buffing machine however (thanks for the replacement!) I just picked up my Genoa tracks and cars from him today and they look great.
J & D Custom Plating
2124 Gilbert Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55104
651-251-7400
A flat rate priority box from the US Postal service is a great way to ship heavy stuff.
Your fiberglass and core work look first rate! wanna move to the frozen tundra for a low paying job?
Mike
C227
Kyle, and Mike- Thank you for your platers information. It has always been my intent to spend my dollar with businesses that have proved to do good work and are familiar with the small guy. IMHO the best way to identify those folks are through referrals. Thanks again. (Mike, appreciate the comments on my work. The thought of working at a private marina is very appealing, however the words "frozen tundra" remind me of my four years with Operation Deepfreeze and my 24 months down in Antarctica at McMurdo Station. I'll have to think about it. Good Day!
Jerry- Thanks for your input, and I understand your points as well.
Okay, here's two more photos, one of the Port AFT mooring cleat on location and the second photo of it's corresponding backing plate that I glassed in.
A glassed in AND filleted FRP backing plate! Verry verrry nice... :D
Chance,
The invitation to come up in October and sail the Good Old Boat Regatta with me is still open but you should be aware that I do not have backing plates that look like they were installed by a cosmetic surgeon. As a matter of fact, I have been known to sail pretty darn ugly at times. By your standards, it looks like I sail ugly all the time. Get ready to get ugly, Chance. Or bring your tools!:D
Looking forward to seeing you in October, Dr. Smith.
Jerry, your comments had me rolling with laughter, thanks for making my evening. If you saw my work area and associated mess, It could only be described as "ugly". I envy all those who have what I call "operational" Commanders and Ariels who can acutally go out an sail. Someday, I too, will have a boat I can sail, but for know I can only dream of that future date and continue to make progress, however slow it may be. And of course....accept any and all invitations to sail with others. I do and will be crewing for you in October, minus the tools. Seriously though, if something comes up and I can assist while I'm up there, I will not hesitate to offer up my humble and feable efforts.
Mike,
Your "Sea Glass" is truely very, very nice. You are so fortunate to have a great vessel out waiting for you on the mooring. Thanks for the feedback.
recore, filleted backing plates
AND ALL DONE UPSIDE DOWN!:D
Here is a shot earlier in the cabin recore, what a mess, too bad gravity wasn't in my favor, or at least it didn't keep it out of my face. I'm happy to now be working on recoring areas around the chain plates, and from experience, I'm doing it from the top. So much easier!
Old time cabinet makers considered it bad luck to put away their tools and clean up before the piece they were working on was finished. A clean bench could indicate you weren't good enough to get any more work. I keep telling my wife the mess in the garage is the sign of a master craftsman. If I related her response to that our good moderator would probably take this post down.
That's what I've always said, never put away the tools till the work is done.
For some reason, if I put the tools away before a test run, it never fails, I need to dig them out again....
Ken
Hello All,
First photo is of my finally taking action on yet another area needing attention. It is such a joy to work upright now, and even though it is recoring, I have gained significant experience in working with the end grain balsa to re-core some areas. I also cored (my own modification of sort) my forward hatch and the sliding companion way hatch. Now I'll be able to stand on top of them without any flex. I'll post photos of them later.
The second photo is following cleaning out all the deteriorated end grain balsa, and top of the inner skin and my sealing the perimeter void and laying the first layer of 17 oz before I move onto the balsa.
Thankfully this is the extent of coring promblems for me on the starboard side, isolated to the amidship area. The port side is only half as much, but the work is still about the same. Of note: The decks on my commander are cored almost to the aft end of the cockpit coamings. At first I was surprised to learn this, but am thankful for two things, the core is in great condition and the deck is very stiff.
The third photo is a prelude to what I'm doing up on the foredeck. Here is part of my profiled anchor platform in 316 stainless. More to follow.
Take care.
First let me say from the previous pictures you posted you do top notch work. Recoring from the bottom and making it look as good as you did is impressive.
I am looking at some of the same recoring work on Destiny. I'm trying to learn by reading everything I can find and from what I have read so far many people clean the bottom skin, wet it out with unthickend epoxy and then lay down a layer of thickened epoxy to set the balsa core into. Then then after sanding the balsa smooth on top the balsa core is wet out with unthickened epoxy and sealed and then a coule of layers of 1708 biaxial mat is put down to recreate the top skin (if you are not reusing the old top skin). After which the fairing process begins.
Here is my question. You mentioned putting down a layer of biaxial prior to the balsa going in. Are you using thinner balsa than what was originally used? Unless I'm not understanding the process correctly I would think that would raise the core to much and make it hard to fair into the old deck. I'm trying to learn and your input would be helpful to me.
Chance - GREAT work!
I'd be happy to find my chrome plater's contact details if you are in a bind choosing a plater... Please let me know.
Keep in mind that he is located in Los Angeles.
We are so far away that I imagined that the high shipping costs would negate any price advantage in this case. Logistics might be an issue too... I would have been happy to walk the plater through the job for you if I was close by, but I've since moved away from LA...
Commander 147 (your name?)
Thanks for the kind feedback. Okay here's my humble response to your recore comments:
1) The inner skin is prepared by sanding / grinding it clean. This process does remove some of the glass and the inner skin was already very, very thin. When I recored from the inside, I was working from top skin inward, and the top skin is much thicker and in my judgement didn't need a prep layer of glass before proceeding with the core. But... the inner skin, especially on the amidship side decks was way thin (again in my humble opinion and experience) so I chose to lay one layer in before the core.
2) I chose not to use the outer skin I removed because upon removal I had to flex it a bit more than I would have liked, and it stressed the layers and to a small degree compromised the outer skin layer layup. Also, the outer skin, upon removal does not come up easily at the outer perimeter of where the rotten core is. It's the extreme perimeter that I incountered good solid core and the associated excellent bond between the core and outer skin. Prying this area up tore part of the outer skin which stayed adhered to the core. This caused the outer skin to be of various thickness. The core in the deck is 3/8 inch. Note: the core in the lazarette motor well cover is 1/2 inch.
3) The core, even though it is 3/8 of an inch, actually is thinner on the inboard and outboard sides (near the cabin sides and toe rail). In essense the core was tapered on the sides, when Pearson did the maiden layup of
the deck. Regardless had I not added a layer of cloth in before the core, I would still have to much balsa core (thickness at the sides) and either way will have to sand it down before proceeding with the outer skin layup.
Honestly, I would prefer to build up new, either inner or outer skin, whichever applies, rather than use the old.
4) When I laid in the one layer of 17 oz on the inner skin, I did so with little to no thickened epoxy. None was needed. My prep of the original inner skin left it very smooth (well 60 grit smooth) and I simply used unthickened epoxy to wet out the cloth an install. I did however, use thickened epoxy with mill glass fibers added to the inboard and outboard areas that I removed the old balsa core (this was the extreme tapered areas, and is definately not 3/8 of an inch to the extreme widths). Also, when I made my cuts, I cut about 1 and half inches in from the extreme sides, this allows me to taper in a proper reskin, hence the bevel.
Thanks.
Rico,
Thank you kindly for your offering up your chromer, but I won't be seeking a shop on the other coast.
Hey, have you mounted your new T track for your headsail combinations? You mentioned a while back, with great prelude photos, of where you may install the genoa track. I'll be installing my 8 foot genoa track in the future, still undecided at this point. IMHO there is no one right place and all others wrong. It seems there is some minor variance (on top of the toe rail, or on the deck) and both have pros and cons that I can see.
Will you keep your cabin top mounted tracks (the ones just outboard of where your once upon a time handrails where mounted) for your working jib?
Mephisto Cat sure is beautiful! and very motivating for those of us who are working on our own labor of love.
My name is Jerry Carpenter. As you can probably guess with a name like Carpenter I have had a hard time staying away from woodworking (not that I have tried to because I really enjoy woodworking) but working with fiberglass is new to me. So I really appreciate your explaination about your recore project.
I've been reading the plastic classic forum and Tim Lackey there recommends not reusing the skins and just doing new glass like you are planning. I look forward to seeing your completed project. I know based on the previous projects you have shared here that it will be well done.
Now that my shelter is built for me to work in I plan to spend a couple hours each night working on Destiny to get her ready for fall when prime sailing season returns to Florida. I have a lot to learn and a lot to do between now and then.
Chance - thank you for your comments! I am still deep in the installation process for the headsail track. I've made and painted some nice backing plates out of Aluminum plate and I will be drilling holes in the deck tomorrow! {'Shudder'}
I've sought some advice on all the pros & cons and I think I have a good set-up planned...
I'll be using a 4' length of track on the deck as the headsail workhorse track. (Winds in the bay are very consistent!) These will be used for my small stormsail and mostly for my working jib (100%). This set up will keep me from using the extreme ends of the track and will allow some flexibility in case I run into a slightly different cut sail needing a bit of a different trim angle / block location.
I will keep the tracks I have on the cabintop as spares. They are nicely located and easily reachable from within the cockpit. As such, they will be used mostly as convenient blocks for the storm sail when/if needed. I also may use them with the 100% if it is really blowing as they provide an easily accessible location that provides a nicely open jib top releasing lots of air. But mostly for the storm jib.
The genoa track will be a long (one piece) track mounted on the toe rail. This will provide flexibility for any size of large headsails I may run into. Certainly for my current sails (a 135% and my migthy 180%).
This set-up will keep my scuppers clear & unobstructed and will also provide a great attachment point for lines / fenders once I get myself a nice pair of schaefer cleats (Schaefer has a model that fits/slides right on the track).
This is the scheme (- so far today!) especially since I do not have lifeline stanchions to worry about...
I'll post some pictures soon.
Here's a couple more photos of the port and starboard amidship deck recore zones and some work I'm doing up on the foredeck.
Jerry (Carpenter), I'm sure you'll do fine with your Commander's glass work. By the looks of your boat shelter, she will be nicely taken care of while you learn and perform the work you intend to do. Reading and learning from others is a good start, but I have also found that sometimes practical application and practice is the best way to learn. Enjoy your endeavors and keep us posted.
Rico,
I have no doubt your genoa and jib sail deck mounted track installations will be nothing short of superb! I'm looking forward, as always, to your post with photos. Can you post a photo of the underside of your track mounting as well? Thanks.
Another area of the foredeck getting attention. For those that notice, the hex head bolt partially inserted in the cleat is just for alignment and to keep the cleat from being bumped around. I use scrap fasteners when I'm doing epoxy work and only upon final assembly use the correct fasteners. The actual fastener is four (4) 3/8 inch flat heads.
Sweet :-)
Your work looks very professional Chance.
FOR SALE- COMMANDER #256 WITH 2008 TRIAD TRAILER.
Do to a turn of events over a period of time, I am hesitantly placing my commander and trailer on the market.
First let me say that I no longer have a home computer, as I write this I'm at the public library. Because of this I have limited access to receive and respond via the internet. Best method, for me, is over the phone or in person.
Now the details:
Hull # 256
Year: 1966
Purchased in October of 2008 and hauled down from Falmouth, ME.
From inception, under my stewardship, she has been out of the weather, both rain and shine, and has her own boat port on my property.
It was my intent to direct all my spare resources, money and time, to giving her a new lease on life, which I have done for the past two years.
-All recoring complete and outer or inner as appropriate, faired smooth.
-All holes penetrating the hull have been properly glassed in, and faired, both inside and out.
-All chain plates were removed and new installed.
-Exclusive use of epoxy for all repairs / modifications.
-Exclusive use of Okume marine plywood was used where required.
-Forward cabin sole removed, and new compression post base installed.
-New compression post custom fabricated and has been fitted but not permanently installed.
-New bulkheads installed.
-Stock monel potable water tank still intact and in place.
-Removed sink and corresponding cabinet. Still have in garage if wanted.
-Cut out all fiberglass tubes and properly glassed in holes.
-New Teak hand rails have been made and properly fitted to contour of cabin roof, however not installed.
-Had port / starboard running lights re-anodized.
-Have new Schaefer mainsheet handling system with custom teak base. Not installed but, teak base has been fitted for contour of lazarette deck.
-Custom anchor platform machined from solid 3/8 thick 316 stainless steel plate
-Custom anchor platform supports of G-10 garolite installed.
-Custom anchor chain hause pipe of G-10 garolite installed.
-Foredeck modified for two (2) 10 schaefer deck cleats with G-10 garolite base. (This permits for both anchor and dock line fairleads)
The main thing remaining is the rudder needs addressed. Either replaced or fixed.
All the hardware needs reinstalled.
I have no main sail for her.
I have no outboard motor for her.
Price for both the commander and trailer: $5,000.00
NO- I will not separate.
Please call me direct at 252-435-7219 (Cell) or home 252-336-7441
Respectfully,
Chance
Chance it is a sad day in mudville when you are selling Ceili. And your trailer is worth the total cost you are asking and someone is going to get a real deal. I only wish my income was not at 15 year lows thanks to the current economy because otherwise I would grab her up myself and finish what you have started.
I wish you the best and hope you win the lottery so you can take her off the market. :-)
Chance, GOOD LUCK with the sale. Someone will be getting a great combination. boat, trailer and refurbishing work This is a horrible time to try and sell anything. If it would help, If someone was interested in the trailer only, I may be interested in the boat. As is the entire nation, my resources are limited at this time.
Carl Nussbickel
Here's some visual updates on work I have bestowed upon Ceili.
Here's some more recent work on the motor well area I have been restoring.
Here I have removed and completely replaced the load bearing foundation that the compression post rest on in the bilge.
Chance, Good to hear from you, as usual very nice work! I was wondering what or where you were with Ceili. This yacht will certainly be a better than new version of the Commander. Good Luck.
Chance,
Your photos are great to see,
and obviously you are a master with fiberglass.
You do beautiful work.
Hope you follow your genius through to splash
and see what she gives back to you!
THEN sell her if you dare!
Keep the photos coming.
They are a treat!
That's an impressive list of upgrades on the 'for sale' post!
I am glad you did not separate:D
Carl and Ebb,
Thank you both for the compliments and feedback. As you can see, I still have CEILI, and although I have been in a slump of sorts, part financial, part motivational degeneration, and some dissapointment as to another year not on the water sailing, I have not abandoned what I started back in October of 2008. Unlike to many other very talented Ariel and Commander stewards on this site, my work on Ceili is about that of a snail's pace. Reminds me of the tortoise and the hare story.
I have completed all recoring that I found necessary and can happily report that the entire deck, coach roof, cockpit, companion way, forward and lazarette hatches are solid and as good as new, if not better in some respects, like properly sealing all balsa from any hole and chainplate penetrations.
I'll keep the photo reports coming, thanks in large part to finally have DSL. Yes, I only knew dial up internet up until yesterday, and was completely without a computer nor internet (less one counts the public library) four over a year.
Respectfully,
Chance
Here's some more views of work conducted.
Forward section of the cabin sole installed with slight custom modifications. Compression post not permanently set / installed yet.
That shot looking into your bilge, sir,
I'm thinking you are the Gene Kelly of FRP.
That' a compliment, my friend,
and the reference gives away my age.
You got great moves with the material.:cool:
Now if I could just harness some of your motivation and talent, I would be set.
Here's a few more views of this area. It took me an extreme amount of time to first decide on the path I wanted to take once I knew I could not ignore Pearson's original set up, and more importantly the degradation of neglect and time.
That is some really beautiful carpentry and glasswork.
Very impressive.
Pete,
Thank you Sir. I too, have been a long admirer of your GRACE.
Here's a few views of the old and new post that will be going in Ceili. I opted to deviate from Pearson's threaded flange and instead had the machine shop mill a recess into the lower side of the new flange before inserting and welding it permanently to the new pipe. Obviously this wouldn't work if one wanted to retain the ability to run wiring down through the post and into the bildge. I myself have elected to not to, and will route wiring differently.
Of note, to my knowledge, Pearson never offered a vhf coaxial cable up the mast, only wires for the "steaming" light. How they made the hole in the pipe is of interest to me, not that I'll be doing the same, but it looks like it was a burn through like that which I could do with a welding rod.
For all you Commander folk out there. In case you ever wondered what was under the base of the compression post in the bilge, well here it is. Actually this is what you would find after removal of Pearson's glassing. The post sat on a 1/2 inch thick piece of aluminum plate that was approximately 4 inches square (not pictured, I think I already had it scraped). That plate sat directly on top of this wood, which I believe to be white oak. Then Pearson glassed it into the bilge. IMHO their glassing was just to keep the oak wedge base and aluminum plate from possible shifting. Of course there is all the downward thrust / compression of the rig load to assist.
Look closely and you can see the lightish, squared area of where the aluminum plate sat. As you can also see, the glassing did not fully incapsulate the oak and the subsequent years of water / moisture have taken their toll by allowing the wood to get and remain wet for long periods.
Here's a snap shot of the new Port, Aft chain plate knee. I changed the profile a bit and it's bit more robust.
Lower section of Port, Aft chain plate knee.
Nice work on the forensic dissection on the compression post! I always wonder what the assumed lifespan was at the facctory at the time of production...
Beautiful reconstruction work as well! You must be a plastic surgeon during the day!
Rico,
Thank you kindly Sir for the comments, but I'm hardly a surgeon. I just strive to produce the best results and always look to others to learn from. You on the other hand have true talent, skill and the motivational drive to get work done in a timely manner.
Some day, I too.....will have Ceili plying the waters, but until them I have to seek solice in the humble little areas of progress I have been fortunate to bestow upon her.
Here's another view of the Port, AFT chainplate knee. You can also see a partial of the new bulkheads I installed.
Chance! NICE work! I dunno, but, I'd have to agree, you've got a way with the glass. And I really like the smooth lines of those knees. Man, I wish I could stay as 'unmotivated' as you claim to be. Hmm......we'd be sailing by now!! Keep posting updates because it's only going to get into the mid 30s in this neck of the woods and I could use some 'unmotivation'.
Chance,
That wedge could be white oak alright.
After 40 years it finally looks porus enough to get some epoxy to soak in.
Ready for another 40. Amazing local wood!
Just surfaced a 5/4 plank of oak I've moved around with me for 40 years.
Could have been white. Was expecting it to be white. BUT
Blowing through the end grain: nope, wasn't white oak. It doesn't look dark enough to be red oak.
Just assuming you're not going to blow through the end grain on that wedge.
Went over to the wood web to see if they'd be talking about oaks.
Couple guys pointed out an instant technique to ID white oaks from others:
Look at the RAYS which are the thread-like dark lines on the SURFACE of a milled plank.
If the rays are predominantly short, say from 1/2" to a few 1 1/4", it's not white.
Rays that are generally longer from say 1" to 2 1/2", probably white.
Will use the blow oak, but juice it good with resin.
Have epoxied some strips together, seems to bond well, which is not the case with quercus alba.
Tony,
Thank you. I took me some time to finally come up with the final profile of what has now become the "new" forward and aft lower chain plate knees. I had a general idea of what I wanted, then through pattern evolvement, I achieved what I was looking for. Honestly it would have been much easier to glass in a knee that had a strainght or tappered inner edge instead of the curved profile I chose, but.....when I made that pattern, it looked too big and obnoxious. Plus, for me, subtle curves can be made to look good if one takes the time to glass them into the surrounding vessel's hull and overhead.
Okay I have to admit, I am motivated to continue progress, it's just that my work / progress pace seems to be so much slower than all the other talented folks on this site. I never had a completion date in mind when I began, but then again, I didn't see all the issues / improvements / personalization that have revealed them selves to me over my two years of stewardship of "Ceili". I just want to do right and ensure that when she is back in sailing trim, she'll be on point.
Sorry to hear about the low tempatures on your end. For me, anything below 50 brings me to a near stop. But here in NC, where still in the 60's.
Ebb,
White oak is perfectly acceptable for use in the marine industry as I'm sure your well aware of, however "red" oak belongs in the home and on land. Despite the degradation of the white oak "wedge" I pulled out of the bilge on "Ceili", I'm confident that had I left well enough alone, it would have continued to serve in the capacity so designed by Pearson. But....., it's like me to not settle for "mediocrity" and felt I could do better. For me the equation seems to be 40% money, and 60 % time / labor, and I'm sure that many folks at Pearson could have done the same if they didn't have to perform under strict timelines and a budget. Like others, I refuse to add up how much in material alone, I have devoted to "Ceili", it's definately been a journey thus far and our bonding only increases with time. Now if only I could be sailing!
To all, have a great evening.
Here's a few more close up photos
The saw zaw made efficient work of removing the original glassed in fiberglass drain ports for the port and starboard cockpit drains. A while back I also removed the fiberglass drain port for the galley sink and properly restored the hull.
Here's the majority of the parts I have assembled for the new cockpit drains that will incorporate seacocks. It took some time today, but I got the 3/4 inch thick, G-10 garolite backing plates milled. Still have a little more work to do on them, scheduled for tomorrow.
WOW!
Those Garolite donuts are incredible!
Mo' betta than ply!
But there's something more to your array of bronze goodies.
My attention for many years has not been on bronze seacock/thru-hull hardware.
What I think I'm seeing is a fantastic 3-bolt flange adaptor base that makes it possible to use
in-line ballcocks as seacocks.
Haven't a clue how long they have been on the market.
Haven't seen em up close and personal.
But if the flanged adapter is NEW it is an astonishing innovation from an established traditional marine hardware maker. Assume it is Groco.
Looked it up quickly, looks like Groco has patented the fixture.
Altho it seems so obvious that it always should have been in their catalog.
It's evident that the adapter is aimed at us:
the upgraders, renovators of good ole boats. Would never be an OEM.
It is also a strong statement to the marine industry that putting an inline plumbing valve directly on
an unsupported tail-piece -the thru-hull- is not sanctioned by the manufacturer, Groco.
They have a disclaimer on their website, that it is bad practice.
So coming up with a SAFE and logical solution for us is, imco, responsible marketing.
[It has been around for at least 2 years - looking at dated forums.]
I'd be interested to see how far down the in-line valve seats on the tapered thread of the adapter. It would have to screw on nearly that whole distance to make me happy. I subscribe to the 800 pound side load test on any thru-hull valve assembly.
The guy who calls himself MaineSail on Sailnet seems to be really impressed with this Groco 3-bolt flange adapter. A keen observor.
He says the leftover material on the tube section is as thick as found on their seacocks. The threading for the thru-hull is NPS - straight. The male thread on top of the adapter is NPT for the in-line plumbing valve - and tapered. The way the adapter is designed the male and female threads do not share the same wall.
What's neat about this is that the inline valve, just the ballcock, can be unscrewed and replaced if it freezes up. That appeals to all of us with busted budgets.
Because the adapter base is mechanically attachted to the hull.
If the base is installed waterproof, the thru-hull becomes a LINER (to coin a term).
I can see the thru-hull screwed in using teflon tape and bedding compound rather than permanent rubber adhesive. There is little chance of a leak developing here with the flanged base installed tight.
It would make later work on the hole a piece of cake.
Certainly far easier and cheaper than replacing a traditional seacock that develops a problem.
That is what makes it a great choice. Something is bound to happen to the valve.
This way you can easily replace with a spare - without making a federal case out of it.
This is a quantum leap in thru-hull valve systems!!!! It really is almost unbelievable.
Chance, looking forward to seeing how you do it!
'Course Pearson did it a lot cruder.... uglier even....
and cheaper.... but
you have to say their 'thru-hulls' lasted pretty good all these many years:D
FORSPAR. Wake up!
GOOD OLD BOAT. You wake up also!
PRACTICAL SAILOR. Wake up!
Ebb,
Concur with your assessment and nicely written opinions, all well founded.
It is odd that one can find, throughout the marine industry, in-line ball valves screwed directly on thru-hulls. This is a major problem for a couple of reasons:
1) The thread pitch is not the same. As you mentioned, Thru Hulls have NPS threads and valves, fittings, etc., all have NPT threads. They should not be joined, but yet....it so often is the case. Even paid "yard" personnel will do this, presumably to save a buck, or reduce the effort.
2) The load is carried mostly by the thru hull fitting (in this case) and this is unfortunate for the same reasons that "backing plates" are so essential / critical on deck hardware. For without a flange and a backing plate, there is little to transfer the load evenly to the hull.
3) Removing an entire traditional seacock for whatever reason involves removal of the thru hull and that can be a royal pain.
Yes, I have chosen GROCO. Hamilton Marine up in Maine is who I ordered the flange adapters and associated bronze plumbing hardware from.
Here's a what little progress I made today:
1) contoured the outer edge of the garolite backing plate
2) drilled (6) holes and tapped them to receive the 5/16-18 studs for securing the flange adapter to the hull.
3) Made the studs from machine screws. It's cheaper to buy the screw and cut off the head than to buy all thread.
In case your wondering, I have chosen to use a "stud" mounting option rather than completely thru bolting, because:
1) it eliminates having to drill (6) more holes in the hull.
2) will still accomplish the same objective, perhaps with a bit less strength.
3) Provides a future option to drill all the way through and run machine screws that have been countersunk into the outer hull, then faired smooth.
Chance,
It looks like you wrote the book on this subject.
From the color of the material can guess you got G10 Garolite which is made with glass fabric and epoxy. So it should marry well with the hull. Even if you are not through bolting the adapter flange through the hull.
For any reader inspired by this method, it will depend on the quality of epoxy used to glue the plate to the polyester hull.
I can see doing it.
Most interesting and innovative is tapping the Garolite for threaded machine screws (or rod) to attach the flanged adapter.
Imco most normal and DIY glass reinforced plastics would be two friable for tapping in threads.
This may be a caution to others trying it.
There are denser Garolites composed of cotton and linen impregnated with phenlic resin that would take threading - BUT might be problematic cold gluing/bonding dissimilar plastics with epoxy.
Impressed with your compassionate reasoning that looks ahead, making it easy for the next fool with his head in the bilge.
It is also conceivable that the Garolite disk itself - with the adapter fastened to it - can be through bolted to the hull - IF NEEDED.
[For Ariel/Commander owners this could be a problem because the hull might not be thick enough to take the chafering needed to bury flathead bolts.
I found the hull on A338 to be too thin for 5/16" flatheads and had to add layers of epoxy and Xmat inside. Not a bad idea, just another expensive step.]
Chance, can we see what the valve looks like on the adapter?
Not only do you write book, you illestrate it too - excellent photos!
Ebb,
Your correct, I chose G-10 Garolite. Ordered it from McMaster-Carr. Don't know if you have used it before, but....it is very, very dense. Taps well but is hard on the hands to run the tap on through. Did I say it is very dense? It also dulls any blade you through at it quickly. If using a jig saw, use metal cutting blades and have plenty of them. Also, I have only cut up to 1/2 inch with a jig saw. These backing plates are 3/4 " thick, and very expensive. A 12" X 12", 3/4 " thick plate of G-10 will cost you $75.89 delivered. Garolite is formed under pressure, therefore the density is achieved with a high glass content and not too much resin. You are correct, they hull of my Commander was too thin to properly countersink a FH machine screw. I would have had to add material, which by making these garolite backing plates, I have. They will be permanently attached / bonded to the hull with thickened epoxy. I'll post more photos shortly, per your request.
I spent the afternoon locating the placement of the new thru-hulls for the cockpit. Drilling the 1-7/8" hole for each of them, and bonding the garolite backing plate to the hull. I have spent so much time glassing in "old" holes, both from Pearson and POs, that I took a break before running the large hole saw through the hull....twice!
The two hull core samples revealed a port thickness no thinner than 5/16" and the starboard no thinner than 7/16". Yes, the variance could be contributed to hand lay up, but.....the workers didn't adhear to a strict layup schedule, thus the 1/8 in difference in the same area of the hull.
Here you go Ebb:
Note: The valve is only dry fitted at this time, but the street elbow has been bonded to the adapter as can be seen by the white. I chose 3M 4200 for this joint. Will use megalock for the other joints.
Connection between adapter and valve looks very shippy.
Can certainly see that if you have tight quarters
and have to have the handle in a certain position
that a dry fit to see where stuff ends up after assembly is in order.
google> Cruisers Forum Groco vs Conbraco Valves
it's 2 pages long.
There you'll find MaineSail in a great rumble about the virtues of the adapter system.
And I think on the next page someone with the same concern I have
about how much metal is left after threading: you'll find photos of golden pipe threads and digital calipers.
What's left is the thickness of a penny! but that might have been a Conbraco valve.
Another concern is what the material the ball and valve stem are made from.
Only 316L (passivated) is close on the galvanic scale to 85-5-5-5*, the alloy Groco is suppiosed to be using. This IS the reason to have the inline ball valve for easy replacement.
Don't know if parts are replacable inside a Groco ballvalve.
My Marelon seacocks cannot be serviced. Imco Lanocote applied with an acid brush is the best thing we can do for the ball - which keeps the lever easy to turn.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________
*85-5-5-5: copper - lead - zinc - tin.
is a casting alloy with good corrosion resistance due to the tin in the formula.
It is placed about half way between brass and bronze on the copper chart. It's non-marine name is red brass.
The Brits call it gun metal, I think. It machines well and most sailors don't seem to have a corrosion problem with the bodies of the alloy in seawater.
They may have to be wired and/or zinced.
Here's a little snap shot of the new bulkheads I installed. Notice that I integrated the web knees that are normally found on Commanders. I have been using solely Okume marine ply for the reconstruction. Those with a close eye for detail may spot a few other things I have done, but have not photo shared as of yet.
Good day.