Only the best ladder is worth it
imco any ladder we consider has to be seen from the water with a fully clothed non athletic person desperately grasping for a hand-hold and trying to think how to climb out.
If I was lucky enough to get both hands on it, the next thing is getting a leg up onto a rung. Imagine you do, and let's say it is your right leg, you get the foot partially on a rung and start hauling yourself up. As you do you are straightening that leg in an effort to gain height. Your other leg is trying to find something solid too - but it isn't there! What you are doing is also pushing IN against the ladder with your leg with tremendous force. This sideways load has to be considered when looking at a fold-down ladder. The more rungs in the water the easier it will be to climb UP.
As you pull your body up, you've got your bulky lifevest (hopefully if it's an inflatable it's deployed), probably a coat or foul-weather gear, gallons of water on your chest and in your lap. How many extra pounds at that most memorable moment in your life are you trying to suck out of the water?
I've never seen a ladder strong enough for what I imagine is a worst case survival event. Or even a ho-hum event. The ladder with the whole world rolling has to be rock solid. It can't be an articulated one because when you lift a leg into the thing and push up you don't want to end up under the boat. You will loose your purchase, and have to depend mostly on arm strength. Suppose your hand got between the ladder and the boat?
Lifting a leg encumbered with clothing will be incredibly difficult and quickly tiresome. You might have kicked your boots off and your feet are numb. Two rungs below the water will be really hard to get a foot up into. Three to my mind is minimum.
I guess we'll go with the toughest looking ladder we can find anyway, and hope it will work as promised.
Isn't there a law that says, the better the ladder the more likely you are never going to need it?
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google EXTEND YOUR STEP the BOARDING LADDER EXTENSION
www.clmarine.com466.html
check out the wood treds over the foot severing ladder rungs. And the prosthetic add-on.
http://www.portalladder.com/navy/index.asp
Cast aluminum very compact folding ladder - each step folds and is 6" wide, effectively holding only one foot in place as you climb. Military thinking but it could work as a survival tool. Bet it's expensive!
'Xtend and Climb Telescoping Ladder'
These are ingenious true telescoping aluminum tube ladders. A marinized (not yet to my knowledge) version would get my attention. The ones I've seen are fairly light very rigid when extended, and a shorter model for the transom or stern quarter would be even lighter. Easy to imagine pulling DOWN from the water on a trailing lanyard and getting 6' of REAL ladder to climb on!
Think that boarding ladders are a survival issue. Someone has pointed out that if the boat is moving while you are trying to board , a stern mounted ladder might be difficult to use, and suggested a ladder off the stern quarter. Where of course the mounting is more difficult. If reinforced stanchions were used, they might create the stiffness and leverage needed.
Someone, maybe the Pardey's, have permanently mounted s.s. handholds on the stern quarters. Don't think they are tube - they may be solid bent rod like extra long U-boltsw Can see something like that on the Ariel about where the center of the cockpit is, two, one above the other on the topsides.
Haven't seen this: Handholds on the topsides would be good if you can use them to grab the toerail. Rock climbers are always sticking legs out to find a ledge. Suppose you did that on your Ariel. Stragtically placed handhold rails and another one for a foot to find, off to the side and a little lower, to pry yourself sideways out of the drink. 'We don't need no stinkun ladders!' imco as always.
boarding ladder reality check
Somebody has mentioned it.
Ariels and Commanders probably all have an OB or an inboard.
The issue is: Don't think of mounting the boarding ladder on the stern!
At least don't end there with your thinking.
It'll never happen. But there will come a time when a leg or foot will get chewed up by a propeller.
Of course it won't happen when you're in control.
Tell yourself you're always in charge
and put your soft, or hard, boarding ladder where Scott has it, at the forward end of the cockpit.
Reread Ed's and Bill's original posts here, #9, #10.
A strong stanchion, or two, some kind of strong point always there, a handle above the coaming, will enable the person climbing aboard to haul herself onto the deck.
Ed says, do a MOB practice EVERY SEASON. Practice using the ladder as a safety device. But also to get out of the water.
Make it something you are very familiar with.
On a calm sunny Sunday morning. In the cold dark dead of night.:eek:
If you use an auto inflatable PFD as part of your regular sailing gear, simply
JUMP in with ALL your gear on. Shoes/boots, pants, jacket/parka, hat - EVERYTHING.
With that pfd bladder on your chest, inflated in your face.... see how you do....
Getting the ladder deployed , getting into the ladder, hauling yourslf up, grabbing whatever to get a leg on the boat, the whole 900 pounds.
Don't do it alone, you'll probably need help.
Then rearm the PFD with a new CO2 cylinder and seltzer pill. You should rearm the PFD EVERY SEASON, at least once a year.
Yourbody's life depends on it.
MUSTANG PFD RECALL
U.S.Coast Guard issued a recall (11/29/11) for some 22lb Mustang PFDs, look it up! They are MD2010 and MD2012 models that do not have next generation MIT logos on them. The CO2 bottles are not at fault, but the 'inflator assembly', something the factory has to test and fix. The Mustang site says there are no shipping costs there or back again.
It also looks like Mustang was aware of the problem before the USCG got involved and BOTH initiated the recall.
Fixed location boarding ladder locations
I've been thinking for a while now where I will put my boarding ladder. I want a permanently mounted ladder that will allow access to the boat from the water even if it is not deployed prior to getting into the water. On my previous boat I had a line that secured the ladder in the up position that hung low enough that it could be reached from the water. By simply pulling on this line I was able to release the knot that secured it and also pull it down to board. I would like to do something similar on Destiny.
As the saying goes with real estate it's all about "location, location, location" and if I don't want to go on the stern (and I don't) I have very limited choices. I plan on installing a genoa track on the toe rail that goes from just behind the aft lower shroud back approx 9 feet. So this entire area is off limits. So my current thought on location is just forward of the lower forward shroud. As you climb aboard you have the shroud to hang onto to assist in boarding. And on my boat once you get up a ways you will be able to reach my extra long handrail to step aboard.I plan to install a ring in the shroud that the line securing the ladder will be tied to.
So do any of you see any problems with this location that I am not seeing? Or have suggestions for other options?
telescoping ladder on transom
Hello! Boarding ladders are not an optional piece of gear to be stored in a locker, in my opinion. This is especially true if you do any single handing, even for an hour sail in good weather.
They need to be deployable from the water, and ready at a moment's notice. I have mounted a 4-step telescoping ss ladder on the deck at the transom that straddles the backstay. When sailing, it is in the "stowed" position, vertical, resting against the backstay (not secured!). It is stable there in any weather because it is "over center". I tie a length of light line to the bottom rung..and the line has a practice golf ball on the end that dangles a few inches above the water over the transom. If you stumble overboard, you can swim to the transom and give the golf ball a yank...down comes the ladder.
The companion gear that makes it foolproof is a lifeline running fore and aft in the cockpit 6 " above the cockpit floor, and secured at both ends by a bow eye attached to the bridgedeck bulkhead and the aft cockpit bulkhead. Clip your harness onto that lifeline and you can move forward past the mast (I have a roller furling jib), down below for a cold one, on the afterdeck, etc. If you go over, even with the autopilot humming and you're going 5 knots...the boat passes you by and the tether swings you back right behind the transom....where the ladder is. It works, I've used it underway, and fortunately it was there. The biggest problem I experienced was moving around with my inflated inflatable. I'll try to post pics.
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Cockpit lifeline (jackline)
Jerry,
The line running the length of the cockpit is crucial to the function of the ladder as a "rescue' device. Without the tether to pull you next to the ladder, you won't catch it if you're underway.
The line is fore and aft, about 8 inches from the cockpit floor and about 3 inces from one side or the other. I use a line about the size of a dockline for the boat, pulled tight with a trucker's hitch on one end and an spliced eye on the other. It doesn't get in the way when you're sailing and it seems you never know it's there in good weather.
I also added full length cabintop handrails, replacing the short ones that were original. I don't have lifelines forward so the handrails are welcomed and don't seem obtrusive to my eye.
The original lifelines, forward, terminated at pad eyes on the deck about 30% of the way forward from the fwd lowers to the bow pulpit....meaning that you don't have lifelines forward as a practical matter, even with the boat equipped with them. This free space over the toe rail is so that the genoa can clear the foredeck when tacking.
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And I thought I had the only Commander that...
was going to have handrails full length of the cabin top!! I built these a while back.
Markus MOB Emergency & Rescue Ladder
After a 2.5 year sleep, here is a new to me Icelandic BOARDING ladder. One way UP only.
Imco emergency ladders shouldn't be confused with the swim ladder. Or be considered interchangable.
Augustine's roll-up boarding ladder is, imco, mandatory safety equipment.
►You can buy a basic SeaDog Emergency Ladder 5 stepper for $35. It is a clever rope and step contraption that folds compactly into hollow half-round plastic rungs and has pvc pipe wrapped rope sides to grap onto - rather than skinny rope. It hangs from a single point, and because of that will be unstable to climb. Comes in a cover bag and has a loop to grab from the water.
►Another 5-stepper is Plastimo Emergency Ladder. Basically the same design but made with webbing, hangs from a single loop (but looks like it can be altered to two points for more stability) You will use the steps to grab for ascending. $119.
►Third one is the Wichard Emergency Ladder, based on rock climbing's Etrier all web stuffer. The 'rungs' are double layer stiffened nylon web. Attached to the boat with a single loop (to a stanchion, pad eye or cleat), with a glow in the dark loop to pull it out of the stuff bag. $130.
The 2nd picture accompaning the description shows a 20 year old buzzcut in a PFD holding the device tightly to his chest with his left arm, his right grasping the toerail of a yacht about midships, his lower body in the water but obviously slung under the hull, with his cheek jammed against the topside's awlgrip. Looks like he's really gasping. Only the French can have an ad like this! Only 5'5" long. [see next post]
There's no single shot of this webbing ladder deployed to show why we should buy the thing. That may be deliberate. Can imagine one problem is that only one foot can go to any one rung at a time. So a body can't rest momentarily*, as we may have to, while investigating the next move. Only buff Navy Seals can haul themselves up... maybe - not scared-to-hell old guys flailing around trying to figure out why their left leg isn't working.
*Body 'rests' when legs and feet share equal weight...important for non-athlectic people.
►Here's a possible better choice. MARKUS RESCUE SYSTEMS*. (We find out what Lifenets, mesh scramble nets, rescue cradles are all about.)
Check out their MOB Emergency and Rescue Ladder, MEL-2-270. (Don't have the price yet.)
It is a three point attachment ladder with three vertical 'rails' - horizontal 'rungs' separarted with a central 'rail' - which are all webbing. It's a 2step-wide scramble net that is deployed from a L19"x8"x2" white pvc storage bag. Weight, a little over 2lbs.
Have not seen this product first hand, But do seem to be tuned into how these people are thinking.
Even a floppy web-tape ladder with 3-point attachment is probably way more stable to climb than a single point hanging attachment.
Don't care what rock climbers use.
Once the feet are engaged in the 'mesh' the climber's weight is supported evenly while scrambling, even though the webbing may close around the foot, body weight is distributed evenly. Only guessing. Hopefully, testing will be infrequent.
But it will be good to know if this product really is a dependable life saver. Other emergency ladders I'd be in trouble with...in an emergency.
Markus also has readymade a MOB FRC Rescue-net. (look at fact sheet for the SCN6-250R, it's a 6step wide climbing net made with 1" webbing)
It is L51"x10'x2". Do not know if that is its storage bag dimensions. Imco a 4step wide would be great. See them in some of their SOLAS fotos.
A thought for another kind of dual use boarding ladder.
I have one of those innovative UP-N-OUT rod telescopers. Can be used as an emergency rescue ladder. Requires its own permanent allotment of deck space. And probably would be stowed below when offshore.
I like its open design, incredible cold hard strength, yet yielding with its interlocking pieces, seems like it can't get yanked out of shapel with an off-balance lurch like a set of tube steps might. Acceptable weight, not cataloged by WM...yea!
Markus, as you see, has this scramble net on steroids called Jason's Cradle. [see next post]
Looks like stiffened cargo netting that could be an alternative to shiney tube or rod swim ladders for getting on & off the deck.
Don't know yet what the webbing is stiffened with. Dipped in plastic or rubber?. I can see a ROLL of this net in the lifelines on A338.
Probably slung over a sausage of fenders to keep it off the hull paint.
JASON CRADLE
If this stuff takes a set from being rolled up, that might be useful when the material is pulled down into the water, giving it a tendency to curl away from the hull - rather than hanging limp. All verticals attached to a bar and to the toe rail. Assume, the net will stay relatively docile, easy to climb.... rather than flop and fly around in wind and wave. If the boat is drifting at all and the victim is on the more quiet leeward side, an ordinary emergency ladder will be swept under the turn of the hull - as will the person. A stiff rescue net (multistep ladder) might make a possible to climb back on board with ease. Dual use, general swim ladder as well. This item doesn't exist yet, I'd like two 4step wide ones, please. [maybe it does, see next post]
I will find out what their MOB Emergency and Rescue Ladder goes for. Want one for either side of LittleGull just aft of the shrouds.....
*http:http://www.seamarshall-us.com/mariti...mble-nets.html
(this vendor shows the Jason net material as Jason's Cradle. They seem to think it should be used only for rolling bodies! aboard!
See YouTubes on site - one is pretty wierd!)
Markus MOB Emergency Ladder
Sorry, I'm unable to put a picture here. It is worth it to see this ladder.
Type the above post title into google for a short YouTube intro. Smart design.
MARKUS MOB Emergency and Rescue Ladder - MEL-B2-175
The ladder mesh is made with 1" polyester webbing. Weighs 2lbs2oz. Breaking strength over 1,750lbs.
Ladder is 16" wide, making the width about 6" inside the two step wide mesh.
Plastic 'rodes' (stiffeners) in the horizontals, and an aluminum bar across the top distributes the load to 3points as buckle fasteners.
Total length 6'5" (77"). There are 5 steps. Length to the bottom step where the pulldown handle hangs: 69". MEL-B2-175* is actually recommended for a boat with 31" freeboard on the Markus home site, Iceland.
Ariel freeboard amidships measures 30-31" - off Alberg's lines drawing in the Manual.
Theoretically, on a calm day, 36" of the ladder is below water - 3 steps plus the 'lead weighted handle". $151.
HOWEVER,
in the personal message portion of an email from seamarshall-us.com, my contact, Michael adds: "Please ensure that the net be at least 1.5 to 2 meters longer than the freeboard." So that's 1 3/4 meters, correct? {One meter = 39.37". 1.5 meters = 59". Two meters = 78.74".
:)Half the distance between 1.5 and 2 meters: 19.69 x ½ = 9.8". Add 9.8" to 59" = 69". Add the Ariel freeboard: 31" and the 1.5to2 meter calculation = 100". 100" = 8'4'. Next catalog size ladder, MEL B2-220** is 88.6"long, about 7'4' (actually, Michael's minimum recommendation of 1.5 meters.) That's almost 5' of ladder in the water. Seems good.}
CONTRAST the 3' length of underwater net recommended from the Markus, Iceland site.... with the counsel from SeaMarshall of at least 5'. $174. (X 2)
Storage cover is PVC/Polyester fabric. 20"x8"x2" (Lloyd's Register/SOLAS, ICELAND)
http://www.seamarshall-us.com/ 1-772-388-1326.
*MEL-B2-175 is also listed as 1 310 170W.
**MEL-B2-220 is also known as 1 310 220W in the seamarshall catalog.
Markus makes 3 - 4 - 5 step wide emergency scramble web-nets for yachts. Imco wider webbing will ensure emerging from a sudden dump more dignified... than hunting with boots on for loops in a too narrow web.
This piece of gear has only one job to do: get a climber back on the boat. One inch webbing is not substantial material altho it's strong and adequate, depending on how it's made. I'd like to see a ladder like this of 1¼" tube webbing - a little more druthers to grab onto. More weight, more expense, larger package, and imco much easier to climb.
► A MOB emergency ladder is important safety gear. May never be used, but when it is, must do important work. Rather than trust SeaDog, Plastimo, Wichard niche-filling safety ladder products of inappropriated design & unknown quality....imco, it's wiser to consider a perhaps unknown but longtime manufacturer of professional safety products. It's not an anonymous off the shelf leisure product we want, but confidence, that even after some forgotten time past warranty..... it'll still be all there when we pull the handle!◄
Enthusiasm is no guarantee that these ladders perform as expected - caveat emptor - check out the product yourself. Seamarshall site is a gas!
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JASON'S CRADLE
stiff mesh ladder is NOT rubber dipped webbing, as I guessed wrong - it is a whole other kettle of fish. Made by a different company in UK.
SeaMarshall has a separate page for this product. It's made with small frame-like acetal and polyethylene 'tile' pieces, linked together with 316ss fasteners. Like a piece of a plastic conveyor-belt. Infact the videos demonstrate a host of bodies being rolled up the sides of Homeland Security RIB's in practice recovery. Looks easy, rolling passive victims out of the drink, but seems rather bizarre... almost crude.
AS A CLIMBING LADDER
Here is an amazing UNIQUE readymade candidate for a semi-permanent (removable) roll-up ship's ladder....
On the J.C. page find the tech SPEC SHEET for the 1MC-JCFCR003. Jason's Cradle FRC Kit.* The 3 refers to the number of step spaces across the 'mesh' (this piece of gear is in no way a net). http://seamarshall-us.com/JasonsCradleLib11321010071
This particular articulated belt is a tidy 21" wide and about 80" long. Weighs 26.5lbs - and rolls up into a 14" diameter bundle.
Data sheet shows a 'quick release' orange case can be had for it. "..SOLAS approved..quaranteed against defects for 3yrs....useful service life well in excess of 10yrs."
*FRC = Fast Rescue Craft = high powered rigid inflatable boat = RIB
http://www.jasoncradle.co.uk/ [no idea why this doesn't work. There are a number of Factsheets that have good close-ups of the Cradle]
Have no idea what they get for this two meter long wonder. Delrin is expensive. Needs protection from UV.
This is military gear, but thinking of it as an alternative for stainless tube, guess initial cost may be about equal¿ Take the place of the same-old same-old stainless tube ladders everybody hates. Whether JasonCradle can be taken out of the emergency sphere and used as a 'Jason Ladder' aboard a sailboat... will take more than a conversation with a salesman. Somebody has to try it and test it out. The company is well aware of the 'leisure' market, but seems fixated on the MOB body-roll recovery aspect: see Factsheet JC200] It's a winner, if they market it correctly.
Can be stowed below, hangs straight in the water, use it drapped on your airboat dinghy (w/ added glue-on D-rings). Portable: set it up anywhere on the Ariel as the boarding and debarking ladder - when afloat or on hard. Won't mount it off the stern, but imco it'd be perfect at the cockpit coamings.
"Tensile tested in excess of one metric tonne (2,205lbs)" (Lloyd's Register/SOLAS, UK)
{later EDIT: Jason'sCradleFRCKit (1'9" W x 79" L) $2400:mad:)
you almost saw it here first.:cool:
'These products are worthy of further enquiry.' I said that. Can find no forum discussions.
Both these ladders hanging from the toerail will be too close to the hull. However, slung over a 6"D foam-filled fender might be the way to get hand and foot hold away from the hull.