Heavy Weather

I will probably be looking at a commander tomorrow. Tell me more about this shocking hull/deck joint.
Jeff

Use the search button and type in Hull to Deck Joint for starters.

OK, the power has come back on. The cable modem service has returned, and I can now finish my reply to Theis that I started at 2:30pm. (It's now 10.) I'm absolutely spooked by the timeliness of this discussion. Fate works in mysterious ways.

At 3:05 this afternoon, just after I had hit the "Submit Reply" button with my orginal response, the worst and unquestionably FASTEST developing storm I've experienced in YEARS blew through here taking with it an 80-foot sycamore in the backyard, our deck table and umbrella, my tomato vines and several years of my mom's life. Someone else's deck umbrella landed in the driveway, but we don't know whose yet. Made for one d*mn exciting afternoon! Still, I'm less than thrilled now to have ANOTHER tree to cut up with the chainsaw.

So yes, I think this would be the ideal opportunity to bring up some summer weather safety discussion, either here or, better, in a new thread starting with Theis' comments about the Great Lakes. My original reply from earlier was:

I worked at a sailing site around 200 years ago with a guy who was also a pilot, and I must say this: Joe called the weather FAR better than any NOAA forecast ever could. He based all his calculations on upper- vs. lower-level wind directions. I'd try the aviation weather sites, do a little research and see what you can come up with. Here in Carolina, regardless of the ground wind direction, if it's blowing SW above 10,000 feet, you're better off doing woodwork in the garage in the afternoon, because thunderstorms are almost a given. To prove my point, it's 3pm, and I just heard a huge thunder boom outside! See how smart I am!!! :p

YIKES! Lightning too and the power just flickered, I'm GONE!!!!!!!

At that point, the modem died, and I heard mom shouting for help.

What REALLY got me was the SPEED that this storm came up. On the Outer Banks, we had two BIG advantages: 1) any thunderstorm had to cross the comparatively cool waters of the sounds before hitting the barrier islands losing a lot of punch in the process and 2) being on the east side of the water, we could always see storms coming. Now, I'm in the piedmont of Carolina where there is nothing but hot land and humidity and sight-lines of the average suburb. From the first distant thunder roll to the gust front that took down the tree was less than FIVE MINUTES. Around an hour later, I confirmed this with the doppler radar time-lapse. In not more than 10 minutes, the radar over my part of town went from nothing to that nasty purple color that comes after the deep red.

This was not pretty. We did, however, get a severe thunderstorm warning about 20 minutes after the finger of God struck down the tree. By then, the worst was over, but we still got 3/4" inch of rain in less than 30 minutes. (So much for dad's grass seed he planted yesterday.)

On the water, you usually get some warning unless you're unfortunate enough to get caught in a microburst or be right where the gust front descends from the roll cloud.

Has anyone experienced this on the water? And what have you done to save the ship and crew? With no more advanced notice than I got today, on the water I would have barely had my foulies on, let alone reefed the main or changed jibs, before 50+ knots of wind had laid me on my beam ends.

Fair winds,

J.

Call it a microburst, a tornado or a waterspout. Who knows. But this is what happened in a one mile passage from Rock Island Wisconsin to Washington Island Wisconsin.

The wind had been blowing heavily all day from the south, and late in the afternoon I headed out to Washington Island from Rock Island, protected from the seas by the north coast of Washington island - storm jib and double reefed main. The run should have taken no more than fifteen minutes. The skies were overcast but not dark - not as with an approaching thunderstorm. In the middle of the passage, without any warning whatsoever, the winds started veering faster than I could change course to head into them. The whole thing was over in what seemed like five minutes - too fast to even get the anchor out. We had been flattened - a complete knockdown. The mainsail was torn in half, and the horseshoe vang stripped off the boom The dinghy was upright but fully sunk. I had pockmarks all over my face from hail, but didn't realize that we were being hit by hail.

Solsken disappeared to viewers from shore watching us (we were surrounded by shoal waters to the east - deep waters to the west, cliffs to the north and rocky coastline to the south - all within a half mile), and all land disappeared during the interlude.

My suspicion was that it was a tornado, but the guy that did this to us, and the US weather service, never told us. Credit for thesse comments goes to my wife who reminded me of a few of the details - and, I am convinced, will never forget them.

Theis,

When you head this way, give me a shout. Maybe we can rendevous at Drummond or ? My husband & I would like to meet you. We are planning a short cruise up the St. Mary's river towards the end of the month. We will be on Drummond for a couple of days also. Our boat has been delayed being splashed as Mertaugh's boat hoist broke. We were supposed to have had it in the water by now. They are supposed to get it in hopefully this week. Then they will motor it over to Detour Harbor. We are planning on sailing it too Whitney Bay this upcoming weekend, but of course they are predicting thunderstorms all weekend. So we will have our eye on the sky.

I agree about the Canadians weather forecasts. The only thing I didn't care for was only a 24 hour forecast. Sometimes, I like getting an extended forecast, to know what might be coming in weather wise. We carry a weather card with us. It shows pictures of the sky and cloud formations. It is a handy reference. But I find it is true about all of the old nautical weather sayings. They are pretty much true. Chapman's covers a lot of those.

We have been caught a couple of times in fast moving systems. Once all h*ll broke loose just as the shelf cloud passed over us. The rain and wind was horizontal. We had dropped all sails, the outboard started and all foul weather gear on with the boat battened down. It was scary as it rolled over us. But we just got a few sprinkles of rain and no wind. We were in the lower straits, sailing NW to Mackinac Island. We seen it coming and was able to prepare us and the boat. Of course this was a few years ago, before we were weather spotters. NOAA had no warning. :eek:

Took her out today--the wind site says we were in solid 20 mph, with gusts to 30. Left the dock with single reefed main, had my smallest jib ready to hoist. (it's about 90% i'd guess. Pretty high cut, so that's just a guess) Must have got that 30 gust about the time i got it up, 'cause boy we headed around fast. Glad i had the downhaul rigged too. Got it down before anything bad happened! Whew.This solo sailing is interesting. So out we went with the reefed main, and i was suprised how well she actually will sail with no jib. Granted the upwind crawl into the chop (understatement!)was pretty slow, and wet, but we made steady progress. What a hoot!! Even sailed her back into the slip, stepped off and tied her off just like you're supposed to.

So, a couple questions....

Will a small storm jib help her make better progress to windward? And is there one that will keep her balanced, maybe a bit of weather helm, with a single reefed main? And still add some drive? If so, where do i get it, and what would the measurements be? Theis? Mike? Ed? Bill? Anyone? Thanks! :cool:

From here, it sounds like sail trim. The SF Bay fleet races in those winds with a 110% jib and "sometimes" a reefed main. Vangs, downhauls, outhauls and properly set track all help. Of course, the top rail will be under water . . :D

A good sail loft can build you a proper storm jib, if that's what you want. It's just a matter of percentages :rolleyes:

You are on target. It is a hoot - once everything gets stabiized. But the run up, getting on the open water, can be a bit intimidating.

But here are my two cents. When you reef the main, you are bringing the center of effort of the main forward - significantly. When you reduce the foresail to a storm jib, you are also bringing the center of effort forward significantly. The totality is a tremendous leward helm. As long as you can control yourself with the rudder, you're OK. But as you heel, the rudder becomes increasingly less effective, and when you are bent over, and the rudder is more lifting water than turning the boat, I don't think you want to play with a leward helm.

When you reef the main, you are also reducing the luff, which is the driving part of the sail on a tack. But getting the sail down from the top (reducing the luff, not the reduction of the sail area) is a principal purpose of reefing because that reduces the leverage of the sail.

The forward drive is lessened even more with a fisherman's reef, where the main is partially luffing. When my drive is sufferin I rig the iron jenny to supplement the sail power - particularly heading into choppy seas. It gives me not only more foreward way, but a higher level of tack.

I do sail frequently with only the big genoa (170%) (no main) and the craft really drives. Good sail, and reasonably well balanced, but I think your winds were perhaps too much for that. Bill's suggestion of sailing with only the masthead (I assume) 100% jib sounds neat - but I haven't tried it. I have tried the 100% and a reefed main and that is fine - but too much for more extreme winds. That is the skipper's call.

As for the angle of heel, I don't think you gain much speed or drive having the rail deep in the water, but I have sailed the Ariel, for pleasure, with the windows being washed by the water surface.

Then you get into the issue of fear factor. What is your level of pain? And, in that regard, as one old timer cautioned me a few years ago as I was heading out into stuff that was pretty tough, "Remember, Peter, sailing is supposed to be fun". I haven't forgotten that since then and it has served me well. But then, in recent years I also have concluded that I am not immortal and perhaps that has also made a difference.

It is supposed to be fun!! That's what the admiral tells me everytime!
She told me that yesterday when i headed to the boat to install the new depth sounder/fish finder. "Have fun" she says! So after i got it installed, i decided to have fun! And it's fun trying to figure this sail trim business out.
Thinking i need to turn her into a yawl! lol Get some weather helm!

So what you're saying is a storm jib won't do much? :confused:

What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, a storm jib is worse than "it won't do much". It is potentially dangerous. You can do a lot of testing with reasonably steady heavy air, and perhaps a multiperson crew. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. But I would jump ship (that is, if I had my wife's permission to jump ship) if someone tried doing it in a storm, where the maximum wind velocity was unpredictable.

Here's my two cents worth on reducing sail, though my experience is more offshore, heave-to tactics than just a romp across the Bay for giggles in a gail. :)

On a masthead sloop rig, as you reef the main, you do indeed, as Theis said, bring the center of lateral effort (CLE) further forward with each reef. Even a properly cut, custom storm jib will do the same. So by the time you get down to the third reef, especially on a boat the size of an Ariel, the CLE is SO far forward owing to the foot of the sail being SO short, that it's doing more against you than for you. This is where the long foot of the storm trysail comes in. Combined with a storm jib, this will allow most fuller-keeled vessels to heave to sufficiently. The OPTIMUM configuration on a sloop would be a solent stay on which the storm jib is bent combined with the trysail. This arrangement centers the CLE, calms the helm and stops the boat dead in a gale with only a miniscule leeward drift.

For that romp across the Bay, I've found that masthead sloops, regardless of their hull design, sail well in a blow with the working jib alone since they (masthead rigs) derive most of their drive from the headsail anyway. Fractional rigs are a whole other world.

I guess I need to move to the Frisco Bay I guess, because here in NC, it's 95 degrees, and we can't get a puff of wind to save our lives.

Good luck!

Jeremy

With a storm tri-sail you need to remove the main, don't you? The problem there, at least for our blows, is that it would take so much time. A quick reef is near mandatory on the big pond out here (Lake Michigan). But I hav thought about that as an option.

What about hanging a balancing sail off the backstay, as some boats do at anchor to keep the boat from sailing back and forth,? The rig would then be the anchor sail, the storm jib, and no main. Does anyone do that? Any experience?

Usually the trysail goes on it's own track next to the main track and the main stays where it is .

So, with my loose footed mainsail, I could use the slot for the storm trisail. Or is a storm trisail also loose footed? What about the outhaul? Do you just tie it on to the boom end somehow or does the outhaul need to be adjustable. And then on the mast, would a second track be placed next to the main track, but above the point on the track above the sail head slider. Or is the storm trisail tied around the mast or hooked around the mast with rings? Interesting.

It could be attached to the mast with parrels (beads) on line instead of hoops, the tack is always higher than the clew and it is sheeted to the deck not the boom ( you dont want the boom swinging about in a blow) .