Ave maria #350

Bill,
Real happy that you got all of the excess stuff out finally!

Did any water run after you drilled the holes? Just curious.

Jim

Jim,
Yes, I'd say about a gallon of blackish water from the ballast void.
Maybe more over time. She's still draining a little.

Bill,
I suspected you would get a little water out; Did you take any shots of the drilling locations? That would be great to see sometime if you did.
Thanks, Jim

Thought i'd post a couple shots of the next project.:mad:

here's a dry fit of the shoe, showing how much is missing.

this ones a little better angle, without the shoe. open to ideas. don't think there's a quick fix for it though. :confused:

and here's one that has me wondering what to do also. Rudder has glass over it on the top half, only paint on the lower half, which is about all peeled and sanded off now. Do i strip it all, reglass? gonna be in the Columbia for a few years, fresh water. Then who knows. Wood looks good.

Bill
Holey cats look at all that GREEN grass! It's only 21 degrees here this morning! Bill, it ain't that bad-just time consuming. It's going to take some time with a grinder and having a laminate(glass)roller will help.
How much experience with fiberglass do you have allready? This one looks like an exercise in build it up and grind it down. Actually, the order is grind it down, build it up, and grind it down, up, down, up, down repeated until it fits properly. This is a pretty important part of the boat so don't rush it. Also, this is only my opinion based on what I've seen and read so far. You have all of the parts there and they can only go together one way so allignment and registration will be easy. Working with all of that crap in your way will be frustrating but I think that's an important and therapeutic component of fiberglass boat restoration. It looks like the leading edge of where the shoe ties into the keel is prettymuch all there so I'd keep most of the work above and aft of that point. This will help make allignment easier. The rudder may have to come out of the way depending on how much room you need (but you knew that already-see, piece of cake). Smooth or round over all of the 'hard' edges in the nasty area first then start grinding out from the shoe area working up and forward. Grind a nice long smooth taper into the good glass working out from the repair area about a foot to a foot and one half. The idea here is to give the new resin and glass something to bond and tie into and not protrude very far , if at all, beyond the keel's sweet lines. Sand off all the paint a good 6-8inches beyond this. Clean the area with appropriate cleaner before you start laying glass every time-you really want this layup to stay in place. Then start building up the bottom area that is missing. I'm old fashioned so I use roving and matt(epoxy compatable) but x-matt is wonderful stuff I hear. For this area I'd personally avoid making a plug of epoxy. Instead I'd try to keep alot of oriented strand fibers in there so it won't become brittle and the patch ties together as much as posssible thereby avoiding the situation led to this whole event. Some of the first layers will have to be, essentially, a wetted out, skinny pad of alternating layers of heavy roving and matt just to give some 'build-up' in the area. As soon as possible, though, start extending each successive layer up and onto the taper you ground into the fiberglass surrounding the repair area. Take the time to make paper patterns for the fabric as it really does help. Also, as the pieces become larger, I like to wet-out 2 or 3 layers simultaneously while they're stacked together on a bench or other work surface. That way I'm sure each piece has that 1/2" to 3/4" overlap I'm looking for. This is where that glass roller really comes in handy-I don't know how you would do it with just a squeege. You'll only be able to do 3-4 layers at a time because of weight and as the repair builds, check it with the shoe to find out when you need to start grinding. That's really when it become fulfilling :D The last one or two layers to go on should be lighter weight fabric and extend to the edge of your grind-out. When that huge void is finally filled and the layers of fiberglass are sufficiently tied into the skin of the keel above then start fairing, and fairing, and fairing...There'll be alot of grinding and shaping I suspect. When you think you've got it 'paint' on a layer or two of epoxy to seal any exposed fibers and Shazam!! Two or three months of your life will have passed by. At least that's the way it works around here. I hope this little bit helps you out. Any Q's you know you just have to ask tis board!!! Tony G

Great shots there, Bill
The photo without the fitting is close to what 338 had. Yours looks worse! Ha! If you don't have a good feeling about embedding lags, that's understandable. 338 had more open space there, so there was room for that option, which you could create when you clean up the area and more comes off - if it does.

No matter what, whatever you leave has to be sound, no loose chunks partly held in place. Just from the photos, now, I'ld be thinking of grinding back the gelcoat and paint for the 'wrap' option. (That's because it doesn't sound like you are comfortable with the holding power of the lags.) I don't think the 'wrap' fix is as radical as it may look, from all my verbiage. You can play around with the matt dry befor you commit to epoxying. You know, to see if the shoe is going to fit good. Some faith.

Taking the matt up the sides 12 - 15" or so, at least with one layer, is IMCO the correct way to go. That way you will tie the shoe to the keel, know it won't drop off. I saw an Ariel at the yard once whose shoe was corroded away. The rudder was literally hanging on its gudgeon strap. Next time I looked the boat was back in the briney. Some faith!

Drilled 3 1/2" holes, 1 1/2" deep, into the narrow keel area and got only green/white tailings. On 338, anyway, there is NO foam in the lower part of the keel (under where the propeller shaft would exit.)


Capt Tony like it dry.
ole ebb, he likes it wet!
Leaving the rudder IN PLACE, if you can immobilize it and have it up in its working position....that would make it easy to get the shoe right where you want it while you work on the area.

I have NO experience doing glass work. Won't learn any younger though! How warm does it need to be at night? Down to 25 lately, don't let the green grass fool you Tony!

I think I can handle it with all the input here. Looking at doing some mods to the trailer first to make more room in that area first.
Might be warmer by the time i'm ready to tackle it.

This is my first real sailboat, so have lots to learn. :D

Another couple questions--
pulled out the seawater intake thru-hull when removing the concrete ballast, what do you seal it with when replacing it?? 5200? Have a big tube of it, but it says i have to use it all in 24 hrs!! Hate to waste it all. Will it keep someway??

Also need a couple new windows. Any input there? Other than the outfit in the owners manual?

What is the light blue paint on my boat? ha! It's pretty soft actually, interesting seeing what's under it all. Pretty nasty breathing the dust.

I have west system epoxy, no glass mat, xmat or any of that yet.
Best mail order source???? no roller yet either.

Thanks,

Hey Bill, watch out for that "blue paint. " It will be full of copper! Resperator required (not just a dust mask, in my opinion).

Windows are a big problem right now. We are hoping the current owner of the patterns will dontate them to a school in Bristol, RI, but the deal seems to be hung up. The company making the plastic "GO" windows is out of business and we have not found a replacement. :(

The guy restoring the unknown Ariel (see the Gallery forum) appears to have either restored his frames or had new frames cast. The latter option is a pretty expensive route to follow on a one-off basis.

One short term solution is to cut 3/16" clear plastic about a half an inch over the size of the window and then through bolt it to the opening with a good sealer. See a lot of Triton's with that fix.

Boss is right about the copper paint! West Marine, excuse the expression, has gallon buckets of some stuff called Peel Away (something likr that) that you slather on real thick, cover with an included-in-the-kit plastic/paper and come back tomorrow to peel it off. Was how I took 338's bottom off. I know it didn't take all that much testosterone to avoid getting my face and arms and lungs blue, but it sure was easier, and a lot more fun.

We'll probably get on another thread with this: 338 is about to get her frames back from the powder coaters. There are lots of colors, most colors are custom and expensive, but the most common 'house' coating is aluminum colored polyester. And from no-name's restoration photos it looks like exactly what I'll be expecting. All so smooith and pumped. I've run into and used an aluminum filler materrial called LabMetal. Comes in two flavors: one good to 400 degrees, t'other 1000 degrees (at which time any aluminum will vaporize!) Anyway, I repaired some DFO holes in the frames, and filled out some corrosion in the opening ports with the stuff. We shall see: this week!


By the way, when you look into PeelAway and decide to use it for your whole bottom, order it from an independant paint dealer. Do not buy the marine $$ version. It'll be a much better price, and I ended up using 10 gallons, with some left over. You'll need more than you figured. Put it on twice in some places - and it likes it warmer, does less when colder. depends on how much you have to remove. You need more of the paper than they put in the top of the bucket, maybe you can order extra. Didn't do anything to the gelcoat, and probably will work if you have an epoxy barrior coat, but I'ld ask. It contains no methyl cloride. You end up with a mess of stuff for the landfill, but IMCO it is relatively benign. Except for the dang copper.

WAY back Mike pointed out, and others, that some Ariels had blue gelcoat on the exterior. If you are going to keep the strainer, it is something you may want to take off again - use polysulphide NOT 5200.
Take a look at your thru hulls and the seacocks. It's 'traditional' when refitting to replace at least the thru hulls. Make sure the seacock is VERY happy.

When I stripped #3, i used the peel away, too. and ran out of paper.
Wax paper does an OK job.
Freezer paper does a better job.
In my experience, the paper is only there to keep the goop from drying out while it softens up the paint. Otherwise the goop dries into a substance almost as hard as the paint itself.
And "Peel away" is a total misnomer. The paint does not come off with the paper.
The way I did it, I put on the stuff, covered it with wax/freezer paper, waited 24 hours and came back with scrapers the next day.
When Peel Away works, it turns the paint into a goo, about the consitency of snot.
You basically peel the paper off (by itself) then scrape off the paint onto the ground (so put down some cheap plastic sheeting first.)
Easy, but messy.
I tried to scrape the paint off as I peeled and keep it all on the special paper, but what a hassle and not efficient. Just rip the paper off, toss it on the ground and start scraping. The gooey paint comes off really easy.

Now for the secret hint: have a hose and stiff brush ready.
*If* the paint you are removing is any kind of ablative (copolymer also), it become *EXTRA* soluble with Peel Away, so spray to moisten, brush and spray off the residue.
You will be amazed at how it much more residue you get off.
But this only works as long as the surface hasn't dried out from the scraping part. So I would peel off a managable section (~5 sqare feet), scrape it, then hit that part with hose and brush.
When I was happy, then I would uncover another section, trying to always work with a "wet" or "Moist" surface.

Hey, nobody said it was totally envirnmentally friendly, but you are probably only putting as much cuperous-oxide on the ground as would wash off with the rain anyway. So I rationalized that it was earth-neutral ;)

Here's some pics of todays work. Decided easiest way to get room back there was move the boat 2' back! Kids, don't try this at home. Actually worked ok with some farmer ingenuity. :rolleyes:

and the transom is the weakest part? i disagree! (tractor was picking up front. Ha)

rudder removed! lots of room to work now.