Mast Step/ Core

Waiting with bated breath..........

......what.... w..h..a..t
WHAT DID YOU FIND IN THERE? ? ? ?

Mice?
Moles?
A former owner?......

ebb,
If you look at the first picture you can see on the left, one of the additional deck layers I removed today..The other is a mirrror on the other side. I literally picked out the first bit of balsa. The chewed up stuff is what was underneath. It did not come quietly into the night In the for what it's worth department, my deck is a 1/2" give or take a smidgeon. At the bottom of the third picture you can see a very thin layer of balsa. I will just scrape that out.

ebb et al;

Well, the area underneath the step is open and fairly clean. The bad news is that the compression post pad has already fractured the ceiling. I will have to lift the ceiling and then repair the entire area. So......I am going off to Home Depot and hope I can find a small piece (1/4 sheet?) of 1/4" plywood that I can cut in semi-circles to use as initial support. I have some 2x4 that I will cut to use as braces for the plywood support. Then I will attempt to knock the wedge out. I am short on time the next few days and I am open to suggestions. My thought is to drop the compression post, annd put a piece of 1/4" plywood up as a form for the first layer. What can I use as a release to coat the plywood form? then a second layer of glass fabric, followed by fiberglass mat and then enough fabric to restore the deck. Any other thought as to what the glass schedule should be to rebuild that area?

John:
imco you don't want to force a new curve into your roof.
Just persuade the old composite that is still there to what seems like its original arch.
If you will use 2X4 for props on 1/4" ply, you can distort the curve.
Try orienting the ply. In one direction it bends easy, at 90degrees it bends a little harder.
Try doubling the ply to find a fair curve and spread the point load of your props.
Pad the prop with its own piece of ply. Many props better than one or two.

It sounds like your deck might be like A338, whose inside fiberglass layer is very thin and may even be composed of mat with no cloth - can't remember.
I used the small Bacho carbide scrapers (triangular blades about 3/4" wide.
These are sharp tools that in the small size doesn't require a whole lot of pressure to move old balsa off the inner frp layer.

When you get into the good stuff and maybe have a knobeldy surface in the rotten zone IMCO you can leave some attached balsa wood behind. The epoxy repair will soak into it and you'll get a bond. Don't have to have a squeeky clean smooth surface on the glass in the excavation. Though it's arguably better - but not at the cost of making the inner frp layer too thin - or breaking through.

Have had great success with a material called Mylar. It comes in roll sheet form, is relatively thick and stiff for a film. Epoxy won't stick to it. Epoxy molded up against it will come out looking as smooth as glass. You can't wrap it or bend it into a compound curve. I have my work table covered in a sheet of it. When wetting out pieces of Xmat or fabric, as you will for your repair,
you can do it right on the table, peel the wet-out off and put i in the repair. Take a piece of Mylar up on deck
wet stuff out there, peel it off, put it in.
Can't do this wet out on wax paper, SeranWrap, or most vinyls.
Of course you can do wet-out on a piece of plywood!!!

If you can't source this wonder material, you can just use SeranWrap on you plywood form. That stuff is very thin and sometimes difficult as it likes to cling to itself. But you can use multilayers as it is so thin it doesn't build up. SeranWrap is polyethylene. If you are using another brand make sure it is not any other material, as that plastic will probably stick to your work. SeranWrap will peel right off, if not fall right off.

If I understand you are not using the inside plywood form/prop to apply wet glass and epoxy, correct? That is a different kettle. Assuming all your restoration is from the top on deck?

You may have some compound curves going inside on your roof.
The form/prop you are putting there in lieu of the compression post is only to guarantee a fair restoration curve to the roof. Applying wet frp inside to the roof is another kettle entirely. It can be done.

Imco you can use ALL biaxal (Xmatt) without using any woven fiberglass. On the top layers at the original deck level you can grind on it to get it fair without loss of integrity. If you broke through woven glass layers in theory you would be loosing that layer's strength. If you are using all glass and epoxy without a core filler, it won't matter at all in a 1/2" thick repair if you have to grind through a couple layers of cloth. BUT

Assumption is that you will be using very little thickened epoxy.
Tuck individual layers into the excavation between the glass sandwich around the edges, Just slip regular pieces over into the cove and alternate with other pieces going in. There is your lock.
Depending on how well you do this depends on how extensive the final lapping layers, the ones that over lap the excavation are. You have feathered the surround of the hole so that when the stuff is faired with the deck the over lapping remains. You'll be feathering the 1/4" deck laminate. There is plenty of room in a wide 'chamfer' for two or three wide pieces of Xmatt to overlap the hole. Technically, lay in the widest overlapping piece first then the smaller ones, all should overlap the excavation.

Punch the wet layers when assembling with a stiff bristle brush to get the air bubbles out. Put in a dry piece at times to soak up too much epoxy. Strength is in the glass, so you don't want it sopping wet.
Overlapping is important as you want to marry the restoration to the deck. If things go awry just let the partial fill set up and then grind away on the surface to dish out the overlap.
People will say this isn't as strong since the bond is mechanical. Good epoxy is the answer.
Filling the excavation with mutiple pieces of Xmatt should come out pretty close to the deck camber, if your inside fiberglass has kept its original curve.

Before any epoxy hardens use denatured alcohol to clean surfaces including the Mylar on the table and the boatdeck.
Imco if certain places are a little low after the final piece is layered on and hard, it is way easier to use (West System) 407 filler mixed with your repair epoxy in a putty consistency to fair in the new surface rather than epoxy mixed with cabosil.
If you have a sharp edged batten to check your arch, like an aluminum strip, you can tilt it slightly off vertical and drag the whole length of the strip over wet fairing compound to develop the smooth fair deck. :D
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These pontifications are just tips from my limited experience. There are 100 other ways to do a job of work. ebb is not an expert in anything, merely an observer, and at that: suspect.
Good luck, you guys!

ebb,

Wow...Thanks for your observations. What do I know....let me count the ways. It looks like the cabin roof is a layer of light cloth. But it's hard to tell. I do have a boo-boo where I pushed a bit agressively and now have a short puncture in the cabin liner. i also have the area where the post wedge has broken though the cabin roof layer. My thouught there was to lay down a small piece of glass cloth to close the hole, and then fill it with some filler, West System Cobisil is what I have on hand, after I make up the new deck.

The laminate that popped up where the compression post wedge punctured the cabin roof is no more than 1/16" and probably lighter than that. I did'nt mike it and probably won't. I will lay down some more glass ccoth there as well to close the cabin roof inside. I am not sure how much the mat will compress after wetting it out. I have never worked with mat. When I filled the hole where my mechanical speedlog resided, I just used glass cloth. So worst case, I have to put in 2 layers of mat and then glass to bring the open space to the bottom of the top deck. I plan on grinding, (borrowed a friend's 5 in grinder) about 2 ins. out on the deck and taper glass cloth across the the wound.

Oh yes, the surrounding deck. I will use something to gouge, pick, pry out the rotten balsa on the edges of the opening, and use filled epoxy to fill it in there. If I have lost the deck curvature, I will lay on a light coat of epoxy and filler and then grind it back. Finish with a layer of gelcoat outside of the circle that the mast steps sits on and it is all done. Thanks for the tip on mylar. I had planned on using saran wrap. That is the plan, anyway.

I had hoped for some sailing but this job keeps growing.

John,
If you are supporting the underside as we have been saying and I understand,
Then why not do that and proceed from the top with ALL the wet stuff.
IE don't try to repair the broken in pieces.
Just push them down against the backing 'form'(with the SeranWrap on it!) to their almost original position befor they got pushed in.
If there is a chunk missing cut a filler piece of your Xmat to fit and just lay it in place.

Scrape clean whatever size excavation you end up with that has all the bad balsa removed.
Size of excavation doesn't matter unless it's ridiculous.
Shape doesn't matter, just cut the mat and/or cloth to fit, put both in the hole if you want to.

Scrape the excavated area so that you have even depth all round.
That way when you put in all the layers you end up even at the top.
Remember to leave room for the three(?) overlapping pieces.
If it isn't coming up even then shim with a shorter piece on the low side,
just lay it in and continue with a full piece.

I think that the 24oz Xmatt stuff I used takes 5 layers of it to get 1/4" finished thickness.
You don't need much pressure when assembling*. No stress. The epoxy and the Xmatt like each other.
You have to put too much weight on a flat area to get much reduction in thickness.
Use a piece of SeranWrap over your gloved hand and push the wetout down tighter and into corners.
Use the same SeranWraped hand to push a dry piece into a too wet area.'Make sure you have no dry white glass holidays!
It is good to have it a little wet so it goes into all little spaces.

You probably will find that the broken through areas you describe have repaired themselves when you take the jigs away.
If any liquid leaks through, which from your description seems minimal, it will take the form of the impress you put there. The epoxy would rather stay with the Xmatt than run out of it.
It could happen that nothing but very little leaking will occur.

You might have some vinyl film spread out inside under the repair.
But I don't think much will dribble much!
If it does you'll have just a little filling to do and some sanding.


If it's hot where you are, but cooler in the mornings, you might put the epoxy in the fridge at home, or overnight in an iced portable cooler. If you have the whole campaign prepped at the boat - maybe even a dry run - then it ought to be a piece of cake or toffee as the case may be. Cover the job with a towel to keep dew from forming. Epoxy likes between 60 and 70 degrees, in my experience. Above 70 it becomes a fire drill.. If the parts are cold and thick just give them a extra stir. Keep the epoxy out of direct sun. Mix small quantities of liquid so you don't end up with your repair smoking!
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* Epoxying is a gentlemanly diversion - unless gentlemen don't sweat.

John, must br tired of this, huh?
Hesitate to say this as you may misinterpret.
Not sure of the inside finish of a Commander - or whether you have a flat arch in way of your repair - or have some other minor curves going.

If you do have other curves to the roof going on and you don't see that your prop plywood can snugly cover the area of repair, try something like this:

Fold a piece of stiff canvas into a pad. You'll have to figure out what thickness will work best.
If the cloth is relatively stiff and you press the wad against the roof one assumes it will span small imperfects but conform to the arch you are preserving.

In other words try putting a folded cloth like canvas on top of the plywood prop to get a tighter fit against the roof. Don't know if you need this. Something like this, stiff but bendy foam for instance, might get the snugness you need against the holes you think might leak.

ETHAFOAM
Foam sheet called Ethafoam is used for packing. Usually 1/2" thick, comes in big rolls, I get it at my local plastic supply, TAP Plastics, cheap. UPS store might have it. It is poyehylene foam. You could put that foam naked against the holey roof, do your wet repair from the top, and after the epoxy sets this foam will come right off. If you use that on top of the ply form/prop you'd close any small spaces that might leak.
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www.tapplastics.com
that's the web site if it comes up.
You won't find this foam in that catalog
but call this number: 1-800-246-5055 and ask the guy for three feet (it's four feet wide I think), or whatever, of the 1/2" Ethafoam on special order. The guy says they'll do it.
[Once saw this white ethafoam as a candidate for hull insulation, which it would be great for. BUT there is no glue in this world that will stick it!!!!]

ebb et al;

Well, my experiment with wedges was interesting but not enough. Once I got them really loaded, they tended to kick/slide out rather than increase the load. As I think I mentioned, I have the deck opening pretty well cleaned out. The deck has been raised a bit but I still it to go about 1/4" or a smidgein more to have the compression post clear. On the starboard side of the opening, the compression post has punched out a semi-circle and this now intrudes into the open deck space. We have had about 2 days of rain so not much progress. I have purchased 2 bottle jacks and if the wet stuff subsides a bit this afternoon, I will continue my efforts to raise the roof (smile...sort of).

So now I have an hole in the deck that at least in a few areas goes straight through. I have been thinking of how to fix this. Current thought is to lay down 2 layers of cloth and bring the edges up the side and over the tapered deck for at least 3 inches. That will be a pan that contains everything else. Then fill the pan with mat up to just below the deck and use glass cloth to cover and fair the entire area including the edge tapers.

Thoughts are welcome

It stopped raining long enough... The compression post is hanging loosely with a slight gap above the wedge.. The answer is beg,borrow or purchase 2 or so bottle jacks. So now to West Marine. They aren't inexpensive but they have what I need. Rain, Rain, go away

John

A few of my thoughts about where you should go from here.

First, BE VERY CAREFUL with the bottle jacks. They are surprisingly strong and you could do a lot more damage accidentally. Try to look very carefully at each step you are doing and allow for ways to keep anything really bad from happening.

Next, around the edge of your existing hole through the top of the deck dig out any wet core that still exists from between the top and bottom of the deck. Then using a putty knife force thickened epoxy in between the deck skins. You could mix in some micro fibers and cabosil to thicken it.

Then you need to bevel the edge of the top skin of the deck around the opening you have cut into it. The idea is the have the repair invisable after the work is done so to blend the new glass into the old you have to bevel the edge of the hole to give the glass a surface to bond to yet not stick up higher than the deck did originally.

After that follow my previous post to you here...

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi.../page4&p=21959

Agree with that caution.

You could start with one bottle of jack

I thought that I would update things as I look out at the snow and my Commander snug in her bed, err...cover. Life and weather got the best of me but (if you believe that weather is not punishment for past deeds) and then I am not paying the price for past deeds. Rather the Scientific types say that we are in the negative phase of the North Atlantic Oscillation and thus subject to "winter" conditions more often and for longer periods.

I think the idea of making a pad from some old canvas to try to preserve the ceiling curve makes sense. The ceiling is now down to the top of the pad. I did not want to distort the cabin top too long. And I have cleaned out the balsa for the most part. Because, I am guessing here, that the balsa is made up from 2" pieces of end grain balsa, there are areas in the roof where the balsa seems to be fine. My hope is that by packing filled epoxy in aLL the areas I have cleaned out, that the good areas will stay sealed and in good shape.

Soon, I hope, I will be able to remove the cover and continue the patch job. I have most of the materials on hand so with the return of good weather I will be able to proceed. SPRING IS COMING!