Commander 93 - Unholey

Perfect, I'll revise the socket to be 1/4" and do the same for the pin. Do you have any pictures of what the end of the spreader would look like that receives and seizes the wire? That's one part I wasn't sure of when I drew up the plans because all the ends have spreader boots on them and i can't see anything.

In terms of the spreader base fitting well to the mast i didn't have as much to worry about since a 2 inch section of the mast is completely flat (attached a tracing of the mast) so only about 1/2" of each side of the spreader base would need to be curved.

Spreader tips at Rig Rite.

http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Rig-Rit...Spreaders.html

Dwyer does sell a 1.5 OD spreader with a tip for only $62.65, seems not a bad deal.

http://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?c...ts+%28Round%29

So I thought I'd take some time and give a bit of a background to myself. I come from a landlocked Province (Canadian) and have about 2 hours of experience on any sort of body of water. I moved to Bermuda with my new wife about 6 months ago and will be here for about another year and a half. One of the ways they introduce you to the island (they want to the change the national sport to sailing) is by taking you out sailing and it was such an incredible experience.

I looked in to sailing lessons and they were about $1,200. Then along came a friend who said he had found 'Unholey' for $800 and I thought "Hey why pay $1,000 for lessons" when I can own a boat and learn to sail (win-win right!). Also it would get me away from my day job (Chartered Accountant) and let me get my hands dirty.

The only issue is the complete lack of competition and the speed of everything. There's two riggers on the entire island - one quoted us $6,500 to get the job done and we're still waiting to hear back from the other and that was 2 months ago...its almost like they don't want our money. Customer service is non-existent.

I kind of felt helpless not knowing sailing and now that its 80 degrees out all I wanted to do was go out on the water and make this island feel a lot bigger. So I decided to put the mast stepping in to my own hands. Thankfully I came across this site and it has been my saving grace. My plan is to order everything myself, step the mast and hire the riggers to do the measuring when its stepped and tune the rig. Basically trying to get as minimal involvement as I'm positive nothing would get done if it was in their hands. We even considered flying in a rigger from Florida/New York (anybody interested :)) to help step the mast and give us a hand with the measurements/tuning. May still end up doing that.

Well that's my story - my goal is to get everything up and running by May 14th when my parents come down for a visit...in this country I'm wondering if that's possible. Off to New York for the long weekend. Happy Easter everybody!

Commander 93,

The background is helpful. Man, I don't want to seem like a downer, but getting her rigged and seaworthy is a bit daunting on a tight schedule and/or budget. Here are my 2 cents:

A sailboat rig looks simple enough standing on a dock, but actually getting one rigged when you don't already have the rig is a surprising bit of work even without the perfectionist digressions of our spreader angle discussion. Every bit of hardware needs to be figured out, selected, procured. You need to make a comprehensive checklist, and work it all out. I do not recall if you have sails or not, or if that is another challenge. Also not sure if the mast/boom you have is close enough to the typical ariel/commander to use second hand stuff that many of us may have cluttering up our garages.

Given a boat unrigged, with all the necessary gear that came off her just needing to go back on, it could be done in as little as a day or a weekend.

Having to figure it all out and make it fit and work, a good deal longer.

And then there is the expense.

The cheapest way by far to get into sailing is to pick up a workable but not too pretty or terribly well maintained but complete boat. One that can be used immediately with only critical upgrades is ideal, then fix up as needed.

#93 seems cheap at $800.00, but the cost of a proper rig and sails could run thousands more. If all all new, many many thousands. If second hand scrounged, maybe just 1 or 2. That said, I have made the mistake in my youth of using second hand standing rigging that looked "perfectly good" to replace some old stuff on my first "big" boat (30'), and had a turnbuckle break AT THE DOCK. Never again. My "new" commander #231 is still in the driveway waiting for me to give her a heavy going over, including all new standing rigging, since hers is several decades old and she was on a mooring that whole time, rocking and swaying.

I digress.

If you have a few thousand dollars to dedicate to this cause, (lets say 2 thousand at a minimum) and a LOT of free time -or- quite a few thousand dollars to farm out the work, by all means go for it. The commander is a good boat, should be capable of teaching you a lot of lessons without killing or bankrupting you.

If the above is NOT the case, I would strongly advise the following, if viable in your location: ditch the commander to a worthy candidate and find a good cheap used beachable racing/sailing dinghy. That is the best way to learn how to sail anyway, and you can usually find them pretty cheap.

And as I suppose many in this group will agree, there is no way to beat the pleasure per dollar that a SMALL sailboat provides.

I grew up sailing on a sunfish, and I STILL go out on one on Barnegat bay when I am there in the summer, and there is still no greater pleasure than smashing around in a chop on a 200 pound piece of fiberglass on a hot windy summer afternoon.

Not that boat work and rigging cannot be fun, but if I were in your shoes, I would focus on water time before yard time.

That said, I'm sure there are many here, myself included, who will be happy to help get you through the process with 93, if it continues to make sense.

I might start with these guys, though I have no actual experience with them yet, I am thinking about them for my rigging replacement. May be cheaper/faster/more useful than going local if what you say about the local situation is accurate. Worth checking out, anyway, they should be able to work up what you need from dimensions?

http://www.riggingonly.com/

Best of luck. Wish I were in a warm place like you!

I agree that it has been a bit if a headache to try and figure out the rigging situation but I believe I'm on the right track. Looking at what I currently have I've put together a nice big shopping list. I figure it will cost about 2 grand with all new standing rigging which is what I expected. Budget isn't a huge issue and wouldn't mind dropping more than that and know I'll be spending more to get all new running rigging as well. Sails we have so not an issue there and we were just given a nearly new roller furller that we can use with the existing jib.

I've had a look at what we currently have and made the following shopping list:

Spreader/spreader bases/compression post and related hardware
Forstay (36 feet 3/16" 316 SS)
Backstay (39 feet 3/16 316 SS)
Upper shroud x 2 (34 feet 3/16" 316 SS)
Lower shroud x 4 (21 feet 3/16" 316 SS)

4 open body turnbuckles (3/8 pin diameter, 3/16 wire, jaw toggle ends)
4 jaw terminals Sta-lok (3/8 pin 3/16 wire)
6 Sta-lok eye terminals (3/8 pin 3/16 wire)
10 wedges for existing Sta-lok terminals
2 x triangle plate for lower shrouds (1/2 one hole and 3/8 for other 2 holes) or alternatively could get 4 tangs.
Eye jaw toggle for masthead backstay (3/8 pin on jaw and 5/16 for connection to masthead)
4 tangs for upper shrouds
4 turnbuckles (1 end jaw toggle 3/8 pin and other eye for existing 4 stalok jaw terminals 3/8 eye end)
Currently have 6 eye stalok terminals which can be reused.

All pin diameters on the pearsons chainplates measure 3/8 inch.

Put together this list and used riggingonly.com And price came out to about 1700.

My wire measurements are probably 3 feet longer than they need to be but I'd rather have longer than shorter and do a trial mast step and measure the wires when it's up and take them to a rigger to get cut.

Also would hire the rigger for a few hours to help us step theist for the initial measuring and after the ends are terminated to tune the rig once everything is final and connected.

Theres other hardware that I haven't listed for simplicity but have taken in to account(ie clevis and cotter pins and the various nuts and bolts needed). As well I'm getting the backstay chainplate fabricated from a friend in Canada).

I think I've thought of everything I need but if there's any glaring things missing let me know. Hope everyone is having a great long weekend!

Freena I appreciate your honesty about having a look for another rig entirely and we have definitely considered that option. My timeline is ideal but I'm also realistic to the fact that it won't get done before they come down. Money isn't a real issue it's a tax free jurisdiction and we get paid well down here its mores the principal of paying a guy 200 just to get a quote and then he only gives a ballpark of between 5500/6500 and no real quote on what that includes, just seemed shady and lesson learned! But here's hoping we can pull this off!

You've probably already done this, but just in case: with a "new" non-standard rig, you may want to measure your existing sails to make sure they are going to fit...

Welcome aboard!

Sounds about right,

You seem to have a good understanding of what is involved and a realistic budget based on that, so - cool - should be a good project!

The big expensive hassle, as you have already figured out, is getting the standing rig up including all the associated bits. It might worth thinking about picking up an appropriate wire cutting tool for the 3/16" so you don't have to pull everything down to farm out the wire cutting. I agree with getting the extra wire lenght. Also keep in mind that there will be a bit of stretch in the intial rig tuning, so you will want to establish the length with the turnbuckles pretty well extend. I would think about 2/3 of the way extended, figuring that 1/3 of that will go away between the initial tensioning and parts wearing in to place. Just a guess, though, rigging only may have some online information to support that hunch.

The running rigging is pretty straightforward, just get enough extra length on all the lines.

For boats this size, and much larger too, I am a big fan of modern high-tech low-stretch line for halyards rather than the wire or wire/rope blend that these boats had originally. No real need to go with crazy high tech either. I have used New England Ropes "Stay-set-X", if it is still available, which is a parallel stranded dacron (rather than braided) in the core, and it is reasonable and durable. In a pinch I have used some old retired pieces to come-a-long a pickup out of a ditch. Good stuff, easy on the hands, just get a size that will fit through whatever sheaves the mast has, or blocks you provide if there are no sheaves.

Minimum running rigging list should look like this:
Main halyard
Jib halyard (unless roller furling, which varies by furler style)
Topping lift (supports the boom while raising sail, furling)
Outhaul on main sail
Main and jib sheets

To simplify, Stay-set-X for halyards, regular braided Stay-set for everything else.

There are alots of other bits and refinements, but that gets things going.

As to the hull, the following:
Check and/or replace all hose clamps on through hulls with ALL STAINLESS type clamps. If the sink still has a through hull drain, see what manner of connection it has to the through hull. Most of these boats don't have a proper seacock to close that in an emergency, and the sinks are pretty low on the waterline. If the boat were down more than 6 or 8 inches because swamping or something, water would come right up over the rim of the sink an "sink" the boat.

Check the mast support post for integrity at top and bottom to make sure there is a solid load path to the hull/ballast.

Check the bolts on the chainplates for corrosion damage. Perhaps pull a few to make sure.

I'm sure there is other stuff too, but those items are the standouts.

Looking forward to seeing a photo of her under sail this summer.....

Finally starting to get some stuff in - have placed most of my order from RiggingOnly.com as well as a few random bits from RigRite (thank you Ariel 109 for that lead). It was incredible, ordered it one day and received it the next, super fast shipping. See attached pictures. Thank you for the references!

Having trouble finding someone to fabricate the spreader bases/spreaders/compression posts and backstay chainplate. Called 13 welders - half didn't do aluminum welding, 4 didn't want to do it and the other 3 I gave drawings to for a quote but won't get back to me (seems to be a common thing on this island). Been 5 days but still nothing in terms of a quote (basically would pay them anything too).

Sent the drawings to RigRite.com last night to see if they would have a look and give me a quote - haven't heard anything back as of yet. I think I need to learn some patience :), but would be great to make some progress on the spreaders.

Hoping that the order for the other materials from riggingonly will be pretty quick but they've been awesome so far. More updates to come!

Does anybody want to venture a guess at what my first quote came back for the spreader bases/spreaders/compression posts?

Here's the email:

[SIZE=2][SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Andrew
I have only had a chance to review the drawings quickly. Apart from finding the exact pipe sizes specified there doesn’t seem to be and major difficulties. I can advise on recommended alternatives with regard to the pipe. I am away today for the weekend but for your information in the meantime based on the initial review I would say that the cost would be in the region of about $1200-$1500. Please contact me next week if you would like to pursue this further.
Best regards,
Stuart Lunn.
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]
And here's my reply:
[SIZE=2][SIZE=2]Hi Stuart,

That's alright - I can get an entire mast assembly/small sail boat for that price - but thank you. Was thinking more in the $200-$300 dollar range as that's what you can buy the peices on the internet for. Guess I'll be going that route.

Best regards,
Andrew

Probably a way too sassy response but was just shocked at the price - looking in to overseas welders now! Wish me luck!
[/SIZE][/SIZE]

Andrew,

I would go with the Dwyer spreader DH2560. It's been anodized and comes with a spreader tip . The Dwyer DH 258 stainless spreader bracket looks like it might fit nicely on your new mast. The compression post issue is mute with this bracket, the load is transfered to the stiffer parts of your mast. I think the Dwyer spreaders and brackets will cost under $400.00. Hard to beat that price. You can saw the spreader down from 36" to whatever length you need with a hacksaw. Then drill a new hole through the aluminum spreader for the bracket bolt.

As far as a rear chainplate I'd buy a piece of bronze or stainless from http://www.mcmaster.com/ and make it myself. Not a very hard project, hacksaw, file and drill.



Ben

My box of goodies arrived on Tuesday have just been incredibly busy at work with a deadline so has taken a bit of focus away from doing any work on Unholey.

Riggingonly is a hell of an operation - by the time I ordered to the time I received was approximately 4 days. Unfortunately they sent me a couple of the wrong size eye terminals but they admitted their mistake put two in the mail free of charge (will pay for shipping here and for me to send the other ones back) and said if I send the ones they gave me back they'll give it to me free of charge. Classy organization and would recommend them to anybody. They were also half the price of WestMarine.

Unfortunately not much progress on the spreaders. Have a friend back home who said he would make them for a case of beer and send them down my way. Say its a lot better than the $1,500 quote I got here. Heading out to her tomorrow to "sail" her to castle harbour. If you've ever seen James Bond GoldenEye there's a mansion in the movie - that's in Bermuda and is nestled in one of the most gorgeous harbours I've ever seen. I'll take some pictures tomorrow and share.

We've also had an offer from a few different sailors who said they would help us step the mast. Hopefully in the water sailing by the end of May!

Good evening everyone, I had a quick question in regards to getting my jib and main halyards. If you look at the masthead sheaves it looks like its suppose to use a wire halyard, am I right in this assumption?

Also, I've tried doing a search on length of the main and jib halyards, topping lift, main and jib sheets and outhaul but haven't had any luck. Can anybody point me to any posts discussing this (including rope diameter to use). I'm thinking if my wire assumption is correct then I'll need a wire-to-rope halyard kit but just trying to figure out what sizes to use. If anybody could point me in the right direction that would be greatly appreciated.

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/...e/IMG_1358.jpg

I'd guess this one.

http://www.apsltd.com/p-21126-wire-t...yd-18-516.aspx

You can give them a call, they're very helpful with questions. I ordered the lines for the Ariel's spinnaker from them, big help.

Ben

Anybody have any leads on sails for the Pearson with a non-standard mast :)? The jib we had is meant for a roller furling which we found out wouldn't work for us. And when we motored Unholey in to town we found out someone stole our main as well as some tools. Thankfully I had taken almost everything off the boat the week before.

Starting to learn that restoring the sailboat when you think you have things under control and in-hand doesn't end up happening unfortunately. Trying to find some J24 sailors around here who may have some extras jibs/main that we can maybe make work for us.

On the bright side we did get most of the stuff in that we need to step the mast.

Call Allen @ 77oh - 91to - 8oh86. He is located north of Atlanta GA and is a boat salvage dealer. You will have to have some measurements for him. Just saying it's for a J24 will not be helpful. I think he told me he has an inventory of 300 sails. I'm going there today for an Electra Jib and to pilfer around> Carl