ss...s..p... whoa ...what was that...?
:eek: 8 years just went by!
2016 Torqeedo catalog lists a new Cruise 10, with "powerful propulsion like a
20hp combustion engine". R I G H T. Painful way to compare and sell EOBs.
Even without a tiller, this is a Torqeedo EOB that looks more like a 'combustion'
OB than a Triffid. Even has a cavitation plate. Hype is that the motor is sea-ready:
"Extremely robust design.. IP-67*.. Suitable for commercial use.. Power tilt.."
{see next post for confirmed price}
Electric outboards for sailboats have finally arrived(?) We'll see. Cruise 10.0R
Standard Shaft - 15.2". Long Shaft - 20.2". Extra LS - 25.2"... as long as it gets.
These 20 horse monsters weigh more than 100lbs. Wish Cruise 10 success,
especially at its breathtaking cost. Doesn't look like it has a tiller option. Steering
is remote + - 50 degrees. 48V Cruise 10 has 10,000 input watts, 5600 propulsive
power watts = 2.5 times Cruise 4 models. Very well may be too much ...and not
enough...for Ariel.
Missing from Torqeedo line is a robust lighter weight Cruise 6.5 (let's call it), 60-
70lb, (15 combustion hp), with an XXL 30.2" shaft length for our A/C motor well.
Torqeedo does not describe their 48V Cruise 4 with the word robust. Nor would
they call them impotent, weak or incapable. But in terms of having instant access
to control of a displacement sailboat in real world current, tide, wind, wave, and
dragging at anchor, Cruise 4 is right on the edge of being a trolling motor. Just
enough moxie to push a displacement 26 footer back into a quiet marina.
Coincidently, "C4R and associated remote throttle are protected against dirt and
water in line with protection type IP67." * Torqeedo C2-4 Manual.
(that quote: "in line with" sounds suspicious to me. ...Viz 'best we can do for you'
CRUISE is the operative word, we assume these EOBs are marketed for Cruisers.
Really?
ELCO. For awhile I was infatuated with Elco's new range of OBs: 5 - 7 and 9.9
("like combustion engine hp"). They are built using Yamaha OB frames whose
range includes a 25" extra long measured from clamp to the center of the prop
(or sometimes to the cavitation plate - we are never sure. OB 'shaft length' doesn't
seem standardized.) Our OB wells out on the end of our floats-- need every inch of
that extra (5") shaft length -- to stay buried in the water. Because my former 8-4
combustion is the same Yamaha frame as Elco 9.9hp (90lbs $4800^) is using and
had the XL shaft, this fool rushed in thinking Elco's did too. Nope, they don't do
XLong. First hand, had a buzy time extracting info from a salesman who seemed
to know diddly about his EOBs. - - - - -^same price as the Cruise10 = 20-25hp.
!mportant, Elco displays no IP Code numbers (Ingress Protection) that I can see.
They must be lake water pontoon EOBs. Bye Bye Elco Electric.
Only California dealer I've found with literacy in electric waterboat propulsion is
Electric Yachts of Southern California (Santa Barbara) Michael Gunning, propr.**
Emailed last week, mentioning interest in a more thrust-worthy motor that will
push and pull our heavy displacement hull around, when situations call for it.
Mike says, but don't quote him, that the Cruise 4 (was for littlegull a contender)
would be good for a lake but has reservations for its salt water use. (That was my
problem, because I was unable to pierce thru the hype - and could find no forum
discussion that champions the Cruise 4...for CRUISING! ...He continues by saying
Cruise 10 appears to have more power that can be taken advantage of and would
be good for a boat in the ocean or SFBay. (it's an arrow, but not approval.
As yet the Cruise 10 is not at the dealers.)
His company has converted several Pearsons using their ElectricYachtQuietTorque
inboard systems. Take it to mean he is familiar with the Alberg esthetic. Huge in
my case, because I want professional expertise for an electric inboard install. But,
there are a 100 good reasons to keep a petro-engine out of the cabin. Ten good
reasons to provide a happy environment for a horizontal electric motor - is just too
tight for me. So it's behind the cockpit for ole thunderhead. The over riding reason
is that the hole-in-hull with shaftlog and stuffing box never made it into the 20th
century. It always leaks. OK for lakes and inshore, but outofthequestion for a cruiser.
The price for the Cruise 10R will be around $4900***... for starters. Add 9.6kw of
lithium batteries and a 48V20Amp Charger (which if l...y will last the rest of my life) ,
solar, controllers, etc: A$TRONOMICAL. Excellent arguments that initial costs are
recovered in use, and eventually will end up even, or even less, compared with petro
systems. Perpetual environmental benefits of quiet, zero onboard/overboard stink and
pollution, easier maintenance are very Persuasive. But the new clean green systems
are ever changing, and pricey anyway you look at it. Burning fossil fuel NO MORE!
CRUISE 10.0
One thing for sure - for cruising - EOB must be saltwaterproof. Torqeedo boasts: IP67,
which is a standardization code for how dirt proof & waterproof a product actually is....
C10 trails the higherst grade: IP68.* Still, it means that if you drop a Cruise 10 in the
water and immediately snatch the 108.75 pounder out ... you got a lucky 67. Weighs
the same as the gas Yamaha 8-4, and that makes them awkward, clumsy, and too
ridiculously heavy for my kind of outboard. 110lb Cruise 10RXL shaft= 25".
Cruise 4RL shaft = 29". At 37.5lbs =1/3 the weight, 4" longer, 1/5th the power. sigh
Later EDIT 2/22/16
***Seems this price is 1/2 wrong...Boating World with a new products photoshot
announces that the Cruise10 is to be sold at $7999 ....beyond ro bust...disgust...
Plainly: Sight unseen, Cruise 10 is too heavy and unwieldy. 20hp would nice at times
but not at this weight. Cruise 4 is neither powerful nor robust enough to cruise with.
__________________________________________________ _____________________
**www.electricyachtssocal.com
M 626.298.2262
__________________________________________________ _____________________
* These IP numbers are what we look for when buying electrical fixtures and toys
(like radios, computers, phones, lights, epirbs, electric OBs) for boats. We will always
be more trusting of an IP68 over any lower number. Believe this grading is voluntary.
So we may trust testing like we trust manufacturers. We know where that leads to.
This is an International Standard, widely used in the EU. Doesn't include UV resistance.
IP Code = IP Rating Chart = Ingress Protection.
IP65 = 6 - totally protected against dust. 5 - protected against water jets for 15min.
IP66 = starboard 6 -protected against powerful water jets for 3 minutes.
IP67 = 7 - protected against immersion, 1 meter, for 30 mins under defined conditions.
IP68 = 8 - protected against long periods of immersion under pressure.
When you look up the code, there are finer explanations of numbers.
If you see no IP number, or it is lower than IP67, it's not for salt water use.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Torqeedo, over the years, garners a rotten reputation with cruisers relying on their
smaller motors in the real world. Here's a Travel 1003 ($2000+$1700 in 'accessories')
- IP67 - & 2yr warranty) used on an air boat for an active Pacific cruiser. EG, plastic &
aluminum casting breakage, water leaking into electronics, attempting repairs include
fruistrating instructions like 'ship back to factory in original packaging.' ...from Tonga!
Hope things have changed since 2012... Torqeedo essentially owns the market, but
imco has not arrived yet in real sunlight & salt water. http://twoatsea.com/torqeedo-
video, "see for yourselves"
If Torqeedo knew of this problem -- and they did! -- the right thing would have been
to arrange for a new one to be shipped immediately to this obviously legit skipper.
That's what you do. That is, unless there are a slew of dis-satisfied Torqeedo owners,
who might expect reimbursement as well. Since that didn't happen, and Torqeedo
makes no statement (that I know of) about alleged problems owners are having with
their disabled ohbees, we have to assume there are many more problems out there.
Too many for Torqeedo to acknowledge.
Water ingress is a Torqeedo design problem. Obviously an electric OB should NEVER
leak where vapor & fluid cannot be tolerated. IP68. Replacement O-rings & gaskets
should come with the unit when purchased and be part of regular maintenance to
validate or extend the warranty. Don't see this feature mentioned in their catalog.
__________________________________________________ ____________________
"People don't run out of dreams, People run out of time." Glen Frey RIP Eagles
"Don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." Carl Sagan
Torqeedo Cruise 10.0 -- 20hp gas equivalent electric OB
Boaters World is the first (that I've found) that has published this preposterous price
for a new Torqeedo Cruise 10. Not yet at the dealers as of the 3rd week, Feb. 2016.
Remember, this is most likely 1/3 of the cost of a fully accessorized 48V system that
includes lithium magnesium batteries.
$7999
(dollar-off sale)
Hard to take how far the dollar has scrunk in value, against the euro. Aiming this 110lb
as-good-as 20hp electric OB at the cruise market requires some deluxe words too.
You'll find it yourself. Meantime here's some highlights of the latest introductory hype:
new flagship model
20 horsepower equal gas outboard
emission free
up to 9mph displacement-hulled boats up to 10 tons
clean, green and quiet
simplicity
easy handling
low-voltage system
electronically commutated brushless DC motor
optimized propeller
12kW at peak input - 10kW of continuous power
48-volt outboard
integrated electric tilt
easily mounts to vessel's remote steering
available in 3 shaft lengths
compatible with smartphone app, TorqTrac
GPS mapping data in real time
and in full color
tiller steering in 2017.
Close to what they boast for this elitist $400 per equivalent horse outboard.
Missing, of course, is the lifetime warranty.
And an announcement of world-wide roving factory-trained technicians who will travel
anywhere, even Tonga, to find your boat and fix the damn thing... for a modest fee.:D
This is an in-water motor: "Very robust design -- protected from corrosion, saltwater
capable, and completely waterproof (IP67)" How absolute is your complete?
Cruise 10 needs "at least four 26-104 lithium batteries" ($2599 each). Might as well
throw in the $2349 AC 2hr fast charger (for a charger????) Reg 10hr AC = $599
$7999.00 plus lithium batteries, accessories = 2.5 rehabilitated Ariels = $22,000
Estimated flatwater run times: Slow = 7-8kph = 35.2sm = Runtime 8 1/3hrs.
-----------------------------Full throttle = 32 kph = 13.7sm = Runtime 48 minutes.
minus headwind, current, waves, state of batteries. temp. Knotsperhour is translated
differently for a fullkeel sailboat. As some have pointed out, these run times and fuel
use does not compare favorably back to an actual 20hp combustion OB.
OceanVolt Saildrive props freewheel and contribute charge back to batteries when not
pushing. No Torqeedo does this. If they did.. probably pop as much as OV = $40,000!!
'Remote throttle and remote steering' may not be necessary, as motor is accessible.
"Limited warranty" is 2 years from date of purchase. Assume from that limited
length of time that Torqeedo can only give a limited guarantee to a product whose
true nature is too untrustworthy to warrant longer or unlimited assurances of quality.
We're talking about the usual manufacturing defects, not owner induced wear & tear.
To be psychologically acceptable for me, the buyer, it ought to be at least 5, 8 or 10
years of thumbs up pride. And Lifetime Warranty is what you give one of your own!
LIMITED is perhaps the truth about these non-CRUISE, non-affordable motors.
(more I think about it, the more I believe Torqeedo has missed the boat.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
Ya wouldn't think so, but I'm often at a loss for words these days. Know you guys
think ebb's crazy. World's gone south... is my defense. Bon mots by the famous
really help sometimes, clear the oppressive air when sanity goes overboard. Some-
times purveyors of apt elucidations great and small, flay open a po' sailor's shock
armor... when he's been under the hood checking out fashionable, environmentally
friendly, and outrageous overpriced EOBs. A cut from Shakespeare to the rescue:
'Now, the rotten disease of the south,
the guts-gripping ruptures, catarrhs,
loads o' gravel i' the back, lethargies, cold
palsies, raw eyes, dirt-rotten livers, wheezing
lungs, bladder full of imposthume, sciaticas,
limekilns i' the palm, incurable bone-ache, and the
rivelled fee-simple of the tetter, take and take
such preposterous discoveries.' Troilus & Cressida
'take that ya dirty yellow-bellied rat!' James Cagney Taxi! 1932
.................................................. .................................................. ........................
Outrageous Will Shakespeare died 400 years ago in 1616. He probably never visited
Starnberg, Bavaria, in the Five Lakes Country of the south in Germany nr Munich....
where we assume Torqeedo has their facility. (but these days it could be China)
Bit of a stretch to link Will with Torqeedo and the writer here. Starnberg today in
2016 is known as the wealthiest city in Germany. And it is as far south in Germany as
you can get inland from the North Sea, where Scandanavian saltwater abounds.
My theory is that Torqeedo tests their IP67s only in the local fresh 5 Lakes water
on summer days, and never travel cross country to actually test electric OBs in salt.
This is why we hear from farflung bluewater sailors about Ingress Protection failures,
impairments, incapacities. defects and disabilities with their wealthy OB clients.*
*Raised the relationship of Torqeedo ownership to professional/client, because this
pricey motor requires assets, services and ingenuity of an owner to keep it functional.
This coupled with forum complaints about disinterested service from Torqeedo
factory repair. Imco, a defective motor must be immediately replaced FOC.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
CRUISE 4.0T long shaft
All-Sail Boat Show 2016 at the Craneway Pavilion & MarinaBayYachtHarbor in
Richmond CA. Imco a big step down from JackLondonSquareAlameda. Seemed to
be fewer vendors in the converted WWII warehouse. Everybody seemed more
uncomfortably temporary. Went opening day, poorly signed, $10 parking planned
to make you walk or bus the furthest distance from the event as possible. Spent
time with the Torqeedo dealer/rep RuckmarineElectricSportboats.** Knew his stuff.
And pointed out that in 2015 Torqeedo made significant upgrades to their EOBs.
Of course this is a salesman at a boatshow strutting his stuff, but came off genuine.
The torqeedo part (underwater motor housing) has been upgraded on C4 to
aluminum. The prophub, if fishing leader gets caught, will now cut the line. Orange
prop is still plastic, but called composite. And the motor has a breakaway for when
hit from ahead. Touched the Cruise4T... by golly! I like the tiller model, the tiller
can be immediately removed & replaced. Had other issues that limited interview,
had to leave early. Harbor and boats in a different location, but not a sign where!
SO, IF I was back to a Cruise4.0T... WITH two required (motor and battery talk to
one another) Power 26-104 house lithiums and bare accessory total (not including
extra $24 screw-on sacrificial anodes and more than one spare propeller)
... looking at $14,000
8horse combustion equivalent EOB. $4348.00, plus all the stuff to make it work.
**Not knocking Mr Ruck, BUT Torqeedo is still exclusively aiming their Cruise4T
at airboats, runabouts, small open boats. There seems to be no effort to find a
cozy niche in the sailboat auxiliary OB market... for boats like our Ariels. No sail
is featured in any brochure showing photos of solar panels, cockpits & C4.0's.
Told that improvements come from the professional rental industry, which is hard
on equipment. Feedback from individual cruisers and their dealers is probably
minimal, imco, or not quickly taken seriously by T. research & development. 2016
Cruise4.0T longshaft, "Solid aluminum(AlMgSi1) lower unit provides improved
protection from impact damage, corrosion(Comprehensive galvanic corrosion
protection), fishing lines and debris. Cruise4.0 delivers the propulsive power
of an 8hp and the thrust of a 9.9hp combustion OB...". "Recommended for
dinghies and sailboats up to four tons." (how do those two share the same
sentence?) Have yet to see or hear of a single cruiser with a Cruise4.0.
Ruckmotors can put a cruising package together for us... and cut the list prices.
This is something that Jamestown, Defender and WM are not able to do.
(have no dealings with this vendor yet) Really dislike auto hype tv ads that sell
their products with smoking tires & excessive speed. Torqeedo ads are similar
in that the motors are always shown at full throttle, and impressive bow wave,
just speed, not ven featuring the motor perse... just the wake, just the drug.
Why would I put Cruise4T in littlegull's motor well??
Maybe, if we see through the hype of 'propulsive power' and 'thrust', it might be,
since Torqeedo doesn't really feature it as a sailboat auxiliary , that there really is
not enough ACTUAL power, thrust and TOUGHNESS in the Cruise 4.0T or R for a
displacement sailboat like Ariel and Commander. That's what I fear.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Winston Churchill says: "Success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It is the courage
to continue that counts."
And a deep pocketkbook... that counts a lot. ...And strong dark ale ev'now-n-again.
imco
"How do I convert thrust to HP?"
USE THE M746 RULE
I could paraphrase the quote below. But here is the whole faq answer...
Hope a direct quote is not some infringement of a copyright.
Torqeedo (ebb-problem OB motor company) is leaving thrust for lust-after-electric-speed,
so it seems to be the direction they are taking the company. The line is blurring, but
easy to see, because 99% of recreational OB motoring is about speed, not work, not sail.
But this little formula from an electric trolling motor manufacturer is quick and neat...
Wish I knew about it when I first started looking at electric OBs.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
http://www.minnkotamotors.com/
"How does horsepower compare to thrust? How do I convert thrust into horsepower?
Many people think that the more pounds of thrust they are getting, the faster the boat will
go. This is not exactly true. With trolling motors and outboard motors, boat speed (and
acceleration) depends on horsepower and prop pitch. By changing prop pitch, you can
trade acceleration for top speed. Our trolling motors have props designed for maximum
acceleration. When you hit the power, the boat responds immediately. This also allows
you to hold the boat in high wind conditions. Top speed with our motors and props is
about 5 mph. Small boats will reach this speed with most of our motors. Larger boats
require our largest motors to approach this speed. Comparing our motors to gasoline
outboards is difficult because most outboard props are designed for much higher speed.
Although there is no direct correlation of thrust to horsepower you can approximately
calculate the horsepower rating of any electric motor:
Just multiply motor amp draw times voltage to find wattage of the motor.
Wattage divided by 746 will give you the horsepower rating of the motor.
(746 watts equals 1 HP)"
(This ends the direct quote from minnkotamotors.)
__________________________________________________ ______________________
Pretty neat tool. Where does the 746w divisor come from? I'm very sure this number
is a closely guarded secret and never should have been revealed to the public.
Minnkota is an electric OB motor company, located in Fargo, North Dakota - where I
don't believe people have any need to lie. Rather trust their approximation formula for
comparing electric motors with gasoline motors.
In the previous post, talked about the only product I found that might be a candiate for
an electric OB on my Ariel. Cruise 4.0 48v has numbers that seem twice as powerful as
the Cruise 2.0 24v. And another boast... Quote from the product specs:
"Cruise 4.0 Input power in watts = 4000
Propulsion power in watts........ = 2240
Comparable petrol outboard..... = 9.9hp"
(really...?)
Using the M746 Rule here: 2240 watts divided by 746(watts in 1hp) equals 3hp.
Doing it right... right? So, what the heck is Torqeedo saying? How do they get their
"comparable petrol outboard" data -- comparing apples from the same crate of apples
...yes? Do they tank test electric and petrol engines side by side? BET they never did
that: actually test? So 9.9hp petrol motors are more than 300% more uber in Germany
than in Minn kota North Dakota. ...or is that less powerful? The M746 Rule says the
Torqeedo Cruise 4.0
is the equivalent of a THREE HORSEPOWER GASOLINE OUTBOARD.
There are a lot more-smart skippers than I who already figured out Cruise 4.0 isn't a
9.9 Yamaha. The web reveals no cruiser using Cruise4.0 for their main propulsion. This
is a sad state of affairs. Torqeedo has no competitor ...in the English speaking world.
And there is no electric motor manufacturer anywhere that has tough, quality, reliable,
waterproof electric outboards in the 8 to 20 HP range. For the offshore cruiser market.
There must be a huge number of cruisers and small commercial workboat and fishermen
who are waiting for what has just been described, even with $$$$$ lithium 48v tanks.
WE NEED THAT COMPETITOR, NOW
Even if we use the eyepopper 4000watts input power, we get only a 5.36hp compare.
What does that mean anyway? 4000w minus 2240w = 1760 watts lost somewhere...?
Is there really a lie here? Where exactly is it? Is Minnkota's conversion tool wrong?
Or is this the way German electric outboards are sold? Assume it is not possible to
misrepresent wattage to curry more auspicious HP numbers?? Mean to admit I was
very impressed with the Cruise4.0/ 9.9 comparison... as sure I am I was meant to be!!
Add another formula: Divide Torqeedo gasoline outboard equivalencies by 3 to get an
actual figure, afterall, it is the manufacturer's site, where you expect exaggeration.
I want a video of Torqeedo Cruise 4.0 tested side by side on one model of two boats
with a Yamaha 9.9 4stroke and a high thrust prop.
And also a Cruise 4.0 on the end of a 4ton sailboat*, as they state in their literature.
Maybe get a second 4ton model and run em through the same manoeuvers together.
Compare cost, too. Videos of skiffs and airboats with bow waves and pooompahpah
music, doesn't do it for me.
Instead of electric motor companies referring to equivalent gasoline HP, maybe we can
refer to MinnKota's 746 rule of HP equivalency: The M746 Rule,
instead of a manufacterer's unsubstantiated cross comparison with combustion HP.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
*It's not necessary to take this tomfoolery any further. But Pearson A/C sit somewhere
between 2.5 and 3 tons. We now have simple evidence, data (a fact, if you will):
Torqeedo's 48v (3HP) Cruise 4.0 is totally under powered for any sailboat...
except a daysailor, perhaps.
Cruise 10.0 "propulsive power 5600w" divided by (746 equals 1hp) = 7.5HP
T. "Comparable petrol outboards (thrust) 20HP". Assume thrust = propulsive power.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
"First one tells a lie, then one believes it, then one becomes it." Marty Rubin
