Rocna, baby, one mo' time
OK, Dr Rocna,
I'm going to chew on this one last time.
The Manson Supreme "has been reviewed by Lloyds Register of Shipping and is intended to receive SHHP status." Manson says it's the only production anchor in the world that has this (yet to occur) honor.
I'm not sure what kind of warranty this implys and have not a clew what SHHP means.* (Super Hot Holding Power) The photo accompaning this statement shows a s.s. Supreme. If it is made from 316 it wouldn't be as tough and unbendy as Bisplate 80.
I would assume Rocna is waiting for their 'official recognition' from this Buzzword assurance company?
I sure hope that Rocna is included in Praktical Sailor's second part soup test. It's something, anyway.
Rocna makes one mention of the steel plate material their anchor shanks are made from: QT100. (ASTM A514S)
It is considered a low alloy steel. It forms well, flame cuts well, welds great with the proper electrodes, and has high strength NOTCH toughness. (assume that's the hole where the shackle goes) It's used for grader blades, backhoe buckets, pallet forks, safes, perforated seive screens and the bottoms of sport/fishing boats that need 'abrasion resistence' from rocks. Strong stuff.
That it is "a quenched and tempered high tensile steel extremely resistant to the twisting and bending forces present when the anchor is under load." is no doubt true. But this language connected to the next paragraph:
"Your Rocna is assembled by a team of trained specialists. Skilled workers precision-weld every component together using techniques that make the joints the strongest parts of the anchor. Welds and edges are hand-detailed until the finish is such that you'll be proud to display one on your boat."
Well, I dun know, a red flag just went up! Whotzis a pricey kitchen range or a suit? ....I guess this is the real world!
My point is, this is a shill outside a strip joint trying to get me to come inside by pumping up the charms of the ladies. Actually, what really bothers me is too many words that are just too full of merchandising - I'm on the "construction" page and I want DETAILS not HYPE. No way to evaluate the product - so I have to evaluate the source. But the source is messing with my head. Since reality is so limited, I have to base my evaluation on faith. What a way to get burned. Yes, I have.
Like someone on another board mentions about your site's video, the Rocna is not exactly subjected to the same drag test as the other anchors. We have to ASSUME the anchor has dug in and cannot be dragged along under the surface of the sand like a plow with the SUV. Your video is coy about real world anchoring in water by showing us computer enhancements that show us nothing. I have no sound with my monitor - so I'm not commenting on the narrator - who looks like a very nice but rather serious person.
You don't show your anchor setting and digging-in in any kind of bottom.
The Manson Supreme evidently is made of very similar alloy, whether the slot design makes it weaker than a solid shank is conjecture - unless you have tests to prove otherwise. Yes?
I would like to see independant tests that these shanks are resistant to bending under load. What load? Have tests been done? Like to see one lodged in coral or rock. Maybe the shank will hold up to "bending forces" but the unknown and uncelebrated alloys of the other parts of the anchor might not. I must be too stupid to care.
I wonder about the stand-alone pipe bow being strong enough and also if it'll get hung up on something. It is a kind of hook in its own right.
You do say. tho, that the pipe is galvanized inside. I wonder if the pipe and the rest of the product is in the same alloy range as the shank.
Would also like assurance that smaller anchors (your site testimonials are nearly all boats over 40' that use heavy Rocna's) that lighter Rocnas will set and dig in with smaller and lighter boats at the other end.
Will your 25# Rocna on the end of certain length of rode and chain, let's say in 20 or 30 feet of water, connected to a 5400 pound 26 foot full keel boat SET and DIG as the advertising suggests?
My life depends on it. :rolleyes:
It's a treat to talk with anybody about a product. Specially a new anchor AND the mysterious and inexact science of anchoring. I'm glad you have a great team there and make the best anchor possible. Reflected in the price we must pay. Anchors are such an important piece of equipment that, for me, they are all already in the public domain. The evolution of the bow, you have pointed out, proves the idea is accepted by the puiblic.
*Manson assumes their reader knows what being reviewed by Lloyds means.
Do they test this anchor? What do they test? What is SHHP? It's not obvious and enters Hypeville because it is obscure. Guess I'm dumb again! Rocna raises a good point that if the anchor shackle inadvertently slides toward the blade it could pull the anchor out from set. The 'dual' shank is problematic BUT NO PROOF has been published by its critic(s).
'Group order' proposed on the Sailing Renegades forum
FWIW,
There is an offer for a 'Group order' proposed on the Sailing Renegades forum.
If anyone is interested in ordering a 'Rocna' (there Craig, I even spelled it right).
Here is the link (up to %20 off).
Link to discussion on Sailing Renegades
The first couple pages are talking about a new boat someone is buying, the anchor discussion is near the end.
Willy Ronca and the end of the Rode
OK, talking to self again:
One of the UNanswered concerns the "gentleman" had was with the design of the Rocna and Supreme hoop. Sarca points out in this thread that the Sarca hoop is protected from entanglement with line and chain AND also reinforced by this feature. You will notice the SARCA has a piece connecting the shank to the hoop.
ROCNA's scenario of a boat drifting over the (Supreme or Sarca) 'dual' sliding shackle shank and pulling the shackle inadvertantly down to the blade end and pulling the anchor out of set
is also a conceivable possibility with the Rocna (and Beugel). IF the line or chain gets down into the unprotected space between the shank and the hoop the Rocna could also be pulled out! Worst-case possibilities are ENDLESS and Murphy's law always applies.
If you have a design flaw it isn't going to be mentioned on the product literature pages. If you were a new owner of a Rocna or Supreme you could weld on an anti-fouling feature of your own with rod or smaller diameter pipe in the form of a 'V' from the shank to the hoop. It would lock in the free-standing hoop strengthwise. Not an insignificant cost. You'd be doing what Sarca has already done.
Sarca is in no way a plow design like the CQR. This is an irresponsible description of the anchor by a competitor. The Sarca's blade is thinner (by examining the pictures - I've never seen a live one) but certainly appears to be designed specifically for cutting into a seabed (bent downward point) - and the Sarca video shows this to be happening pretty well. There also seems to be a minimum of editing in the video.
Here is what I think may be an important observation. See if you agree, ok?
The Sarca is concave on the bottom with a sharpened point in front that has a definite down turn. This, to me, looks like that when you pull on the shank the anchor HAS TO DIVE IN. The Sarca has to dive because its blade can only be pulled DOWN into the seabed. Could be said: the anchor SLICES into the bottom.
OK, let's take the spoon shaped version where the bottom of the blade has a belly. I could argue that as this Rocna anchor is pulled into the seabed it will round out much like taking a SCOOP out of a melon with a tablespoon - the shape of the spoon follows itself into the solid
and follows itself back out again. Kabisch?
Now, if you turned that spoon over and tried to cut out a piece of melon that way, I'd say it can't be done. Not easily. Suppose the Rocna (I don't know this, ofcourse, none of us do) gets pulled in as shown in the video BUT if pulled further by the SUV or the boat FOLLOWS ITSELF BACK OUT AGAIN? There is NO video showing what happens after set. Hmmmmm? You know, because the bottom of the anchor is spoon-shaped. (More or less, we are comparing two similar but radically different products) Maybe it doesn't happen in normal anchoring situations... but in a storm?
Guys and Gals, consider this.......ok?
Craig Smith could argue that this doesn't happen in practice. Show us.
The melon-spoon metaphore may not be wholey accurate because the 'radius' of the blade may be too large for scooping to actually occur. Sarca shows their reverse curve digging in deeper when tugged (which would happen in a real world situation). Can't argue with that concept, right? Intermittant tugging on the Rocna might not be pulling it DOWN into the bottom but tending to be pulling it UP because of its shape.
It would be most revealing to see 'new generation anchors' in a side by side comparison, using the Hylas Spade for datum. Sarca also needs to completely reveal their anchor parts alloys to the public. As does Rocna and Manson. Nothing, nothing should be taken for granted these days. And imco especially with a new not yet established anchor. Sarca's been around since '93. With 'knock-offs' you can assume less attention is payed to methods and materials.
If I had heros in manufacturing and marketing of marine products. Garhauer is at the TOP of the list. With more familiarity with these 'new generation' (Rocna takes the credit for this phrase) anchors - I may lean toward the small shop inventive energy of the Sarca as a counterpart to the Garhauer family in the States. It's a matter of rightness and righteousness. Right? Oh, AND the right price.
Rocna literature quote: "Practical Sailor and Cruising World [US buzzword mags - ebb] show that New Generation type anchors consistently out perform more traditional designs. Picks, claws, and plows are a thing of the past, and we are proud to present the most refined and effective - yet affordable - new generation design - Rocna"
Yess, yes, again, this may be true - Rocna is a slick looking anchor and this statement is unabashed merchandising. But this statement does NOT say. and can NOT say (as of 2/2006), that P.S. and C.W. have actually tested any Ronca alone or against or with these OTHER new generation anchors. Right? And whether it is AFFORDABLE depends or your pocketbook - and the value of your life. :D
[Craig amos, suh,
If you want to add some more to the information fray - and witness some more exquisite uninformed commentary - type in "yatiwa anchor" on google where you may find the www.ybw.com anchor FORUM where Hylas holds fort (the Spayed and Oceane Anchor inv.)and, wuduknow, so does craig rocna smith....
We'll git to da truit, someday, folks!!! HEARSAY IS OFTEN THE WORST KIND OF INFORMATION YOU CAN GET. or.... WHOSE MOUTH IS TALKING?]
>sotto voce< psssst, craig, you still there? :)
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THANKS REX FOR YOUR MESSAGE BELOW HERE. Won't respond until I have some time. Also leaving your name on the Forum index might entice some folks in to read it befor it gets buried! Ole breakwind ebb