Exterior Wood Finishes

First - Hi Rico thanks for your thoughts...

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Traditional varnish (I swear by EPIFANES clear) - or nothing at all... (but Teak oil) me thinks. Especially in tropical climes.

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The problem with teak oil in my area here is that you need to reapply about every 60 days. When I finally finish my restoration I want to sail as much as possible and not spend all my time during my 9 month sailing season doing maintenance. The plan is to pull the boat for the 3 months in the summer when sailing just is not fun with all the thunderstoms every day and bring her home to the shop. I will do my annual maintenance during that 3 month time frame and if the Epifanes needs work I will do it then.

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Sun covers for brightwork the most effective protection, and ARE a MUST - even in California.

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I am 100% on board with you on this one Rico. And I am lucky that my wife has a sewing business (she does custom window treatments) and the equipment to make me all my canvas work. The very first project I want her to make is a cover that will protect all of the brightwork and go from just forward of the mast to just past the aft end of the cockpit.

Next - thanks Ebb for your reply...

I now plan to follow your suggestions and seal the wood with epoxy and then apply 6 or 8 coats of Epifanes. As long as I stay on top of the maintenance each year I think I will get the best bang for my time spent with this route.

And finally - Ben

Thanks for posting the articles. I enjoyed reading them and seeing the pictures of what can be done with enough time and effort. And they also reinforced the epoxy sealer concept prior to finishing.

For my project I think I will do as mentioned above and epoxy seal then apply Epifanes. I will brush all but the last coat on and spray the final coat. I have an HVLP sprayer that I have used many times over the years for my furniture projects. But spraying even with HVLP goes through a lot more finish materials so I will only spray the final coat.

Ben's two resources are great finds
- especially so in their compleatness.
The first will take me into next week to digest ( very rich information)
and the second for the fantastic step-by-step photos.

On a warm-up skim of the articles, the first pro puts at least 3 coats of epoxy on the work as a sealer. He fills the grain completely and sands back to an absolutely smooth epoxy surface. ZERO EXPOSED WOOD. 100% ENCAPSULATION.
I think, that if you can afford the time, effort and $$ it takes to achieve this, in theory this is the better way to go for our knockabout live outdoors Ariels and Commanders.
This provides an important barrier to sanding through to the wood itself with maintenance revarnishing and touch-up.
Can't see what's wrong with this concept and (with a little more worrying about it....suffocating wood!) I will go to the extreme of completely encasing brightwork in epoxy before varnish.
Whatever number of epoxy coats it takes. It eliminates solvent cut coats, laying the Epifanes on directly from the can. Exciting!
Imco the full recommended schedule (8 coats?) of Epifanes should still be adhered to - because it is the number of layers of UV absorbers that provides protection for the wood. Each layer we assume adds 12.5% of the 100% UV protection of 8 coats.
In Florida and the tropics Epifanes will tell you to put on 10 or 12 coats.*

It looks like this method makes the seasonal maintenance issue a piece of frosting.
It's the UV absorbers that protect the wood we are replenishing the finish with.

We still use solvent in cut coats of epoxy on the mahogany. Final encapsulation (assume 2nd or 3rd NO SOLVENT coats) can be smoothed on with a cheap foam brush or roller, with sanding between. Hopefully you use a no-solvent laminating epoxy for this.

The shop with all the pictures uses a Petit sealer - which is two thirds solvent. And the MSDS reads like the stuff is a highly thinned varnish - rather than plastic. This (like CPES which imco is also 66% solvent) does not make a "barrier" coat. It's merely a sealer. That's OK. But only for boats that live most of their lives under wraps or in a garage - and never need those added maintenance coats.

H M M M M ....Two coats of aluminum paint on the mahogany would work,,,,and it's shiney!
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*I think most people when they come upon the epoxy sealer thing aren't really sure the varnish SYSTEM will stick to the epoxy. Varnish is glue. It'll probably stick to other things besides wood. Epoxy is a glue. It sticks to a lot of things with major exceptions. Epoxy, if it's not out-gassing, has a raft of coatings that like to stick to it. It is the prime coat for all paint systems used on a boat. When cured it is inert. When grit sanded the tooth will mechanically lock on any number of coatings.
Thinned varnish pre-coating of raw wood is meant to insure subsequent multilayers layers are attached to the work. HERE IS WHERE OBJECTION HAPPENS between old school and new. There are woodfibers holding the varnish on, initially..... Yeah, but what's holding one coating of varnish onto another coat of varnish?
Scratches. And varnish stickiness. With the notable exception of Epi's Wood Finish, you must scratch the previous cured/dry surface.
Haven't heard of a chemical reaction taking place between one coat of Varnish and the next. Varnish sticks to prepared surfaces even if they aren't varnish.
The Q&A on the Epi's Varnish page explains the phenomenon of Wood Finish sticking to itself without prep sanding.
If you got this far, maybe you should check it out.;)
One thing more:
Downloaded to STUDY SteveSmith's three decade old four page directions for using CPES as a sealer under varnish. Nowhere does he say why ANY epoxy sealer makes a better base for varnish than anything else, nowhere! I guess it's sumpin we dumasses sposed to know. Maybe THAT'S WHY we have this continuing controversy. It's appears to be an unsubstantiated assumption by everybody including the experts.:p
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WAY LATER EDIT: Smith&Co Clear Penetrating Epoxy CPES has been known to amine blush - or produce a strange greasey surface after given time to set. I began using the fast hardner 'cold weather' CPES version, any season, had it set up perfect every time. If you are prepping wood for paint or varnish, wash the cured surface with warm water & dish detergent - and rinse - be certain your next coats wil stick. NO solvent works to remove epoxy amine blush, only water.

I recall that epoxy under varnish is a frequent topic of discussion at the Woodenboat forum. You'll find hundreds of opinions on the subject, but no consensus.

You can also read thousands of opinions on the best wood treatment, but no consensus.

Choose your poison.

Longevity is the most important factor, but there doesn't seem to be a scientific benchmark. You're left with manufacturers claims and anecdotal reports.

The urge to find a miracle cure is irresistible, even for me. Since I can't figure out what lasts the longest, I sometimes think about what goes on the fastest.

Obviously, the job goes quicker if you can apply multiple coats in a day. For my latest experiment, I used Epifanes Rapidcoat/Rapidclear. You can apply a new coat about every 5 hours without sanding between coats.

I brought the cockpit coamings and trim strips home to refinish. The Rapidcoat is rather dark, especially compared to a clear varnish like Epifanes.

I put on 6 coats of Rapidcoat and 6 of Rapidclear. I don't know how long it will last. I'll probably never know, since I put 2 coats of regular varnish on top of all that. I had run out of Rapidclear and was putting maintenance coats of varnish on some other pieces.

Unfortunately, you'll never find an agreement on what product, or class of products, works best.

Give some thought to trying to arrange the wood so you can do both sides at once, to get the job done quicker.

For the coamong boards, I passed a long eyebolt through a hole at each end and strung them up from the rafters with string. Wasn't great. They tended to shift and swing a bit. Like varnishing a moving target.

For other pieces I've tried to stand them up with clamps. This hasn't worked so great either. Maybe somebody has a good trick.

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/a...1&d=1262540623

Must have been blowing pretty good that day or at least gusting pretty good.

I recently started a subscription for WoodenBoat magazine and was also checking out their forum. And you are certainly right that there is not a concensus on the epoxy under the varnish debate.

For my choice of poison I think the epoxy makes sense. If you look at wood under a very high magnification it is like a bundle of straws. Those straws are what wicked up the moisture and nutrients from the ground to feed the tree when it was alive. They are very good at wicking up moisture. And wood expands and contracts in large part based on the amount of moisture it is taking on or giving off which it does throughout its existence. So I believe if I limit the amount of moisture the wood can wick up (I will never stop it completely) then I can limit the amount of expansion and contraction that eventually causes the finish to fail. At least that is my take on the subject.

I checked out the Epifanes website briefly but was unable to decifer if the rapid coat was a better or not as good of a UV blocker than the original Epifanes varnish. I will need to spend some more time reading more about the two products. I guess in my mind which ever is the better UV blocker will be the choice I go with. Even if it takes me longer to do the finishing. I'm guessing that will turn out to be the original slow drying material.

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Originally Posted by commanderpete

...For the coamong boards, I passed a long eyebolt through a hole at each end and strung them up from the rafters with string. Wasn't great. They tended to shift and swing a bit. Like varnishing a moving target.

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I tried that way a couple of times - pics are somewhere here on the forum. Same gripes as Pete. Also, I had to hang them upside down, and when I got a little impatient with the varnish, i.e. brushed on too much, the drips ended up on the tops of the coamings where they had to be sanded because they were quite visible.

Then, at A-231 Bill's suggestion, I started doing them this way. I drilled a hole in the top of the 4x4's to accept the bolt from the winch bases. Works pretty good. They're solid enough to brush on the varnish and you can get at all the sides and edges. With the different heights, you can also rotate either of them to get better lighting. Also, with the coamings upright, the drips move in the right direction...

that's the best use of those long bolts thru the coaming blocks that i have found. denting by head while crawling in the lockers seems to be the other useful purpose.:)

That's a neat arrangement. I'd call it folk art.

Sometimes if I have smaller pieces, with screwholes in them, I'll prop them up on a bed of nails.

There is some advantage to working on horizontal surfaces. You can lay the finish on thick and heavy and it can't help but flow out nicely, as long as you can keep it from dripping around the underside.

C147--the Rapidcoat/clear is probably not the best choice to use over epoxy. They're a bit thin, and varnish would probably give you more build.

I wouldn't discount some of the newer Cetols either, although I haven't seen them in person. It seems you can get away with less coats using Cetol.

So many choices. Reminds me of a funny post I read here once. Somebody was asking whether they should buy one product or another. Everybody chimed in with their favorite brand. He comes back and says something like

"Gee, thanks guys, but I was hoping for less options, not more"

this is 3 coats of Cetol natural teak on mahogany. It was brushed on about 1-1/2 years ago and has been laying in my shop ever since. You can probably tell it looks lots better than the older versions with the redish stain they have... problem is it does not protect like the older versions either.

I really wished there was a water based finish that worked well in the marine enviroment like the water based polyurethane I put on the worktop this sample is laying on. The worktop is a large U shape with 5 ft legs and a 14ft bottom of the U and in a single day I sprayed 8 coats of the water based poly on it. By the time I got to the far end the end I started on was dry to the touch and in another 20 to 30 minutes I could sand it.

Looks good to me.

You don't often hear about people spraying on a wood finish. Not sure why.

With the amount of time you save, who cares if you need to buy an extra quart?

C'pete,
Take a look at Ben's, Ariel 109, #100 post in this thread.
The first blue line ,,,,hydroplane..... gives the WHY on spraying clearcoat!

(There's the How, Where, When, Why, and the oft forgot NO WAY!)

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Originally Posted by Commander 147

And I am lucky that my wife has a sewing business (she does custom window treatments) and the equipment to make me all my canvas work. The very first project I want her to make is a cover that will protect all of the brightwork and go from just forward of the mast to just past the aft end of the cockpit.

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Curious if you ever produced this canvas - I would be intrigued to see a picture.

Kyle

Not yet, because I'm spending all of the boat dollars on the refit. But I will be sure to post a picture when she does. She is actually thinking of expanding her business into boat canvas work.

I know where she could find some guinea pigs

Do you have a specific project in mind? If so send me a private message and I'll get her involved.

- Oink, Oink!!!

Or 'groin, groin' as a pig from Guinea would say (in French)...

Stripped my hatch boards. Campanionway brightwork to follow. Boy is a heat gun and a triangle scraper like magic! Had I known, stripping my coamings would have been less arduous! You have to be careful not to scorch the wood, but besides that, it is easy fleasy.

Looking at stain as the lowermost of my hatch boards is significantly lighter than the rest. I'm guessing it was a replacement. Water has collected on the bottom edge and there was a little dry rot to repair - may have happened before in the last 50 years.

With an eye for old Chris Craft style mahogany boats, I always wondered how they get that rich red color out of mahogany. Tempted to use these techniques:

(http://www.vintageraceboatshop.com/Stain-Varnish.htm)

...on my campanionway and hatch boards. I searched and found mentions of filler stain on the first page of this thread - wish I had run across it before finishing my coamings.

YEOWZA!

Attachment 9429

And a great site, great fotos of a traditional varnish job... by seven curmudgeons:D
....with a fine modern varnish. That ChrisCraft is a jewel-box, and keeping up with
it is going to take a lot of varnish love and a lot of Clear Gloss Epifanes.*

From the photos, it's difficult to see the difference between the three choices of
filler stain. Color intensity seems to change. Would choose the brightest red under
multiple coats of UV varnish. Have to buy into the Interlux/Petit system... Have
to admit the result is fantastic. Can't imagine keeping up with it on a boat that
lives outdoors!!!
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Already thinking of painting out LittleGull's mahogany bullwerkian toerails. For me,
yearly varnishes are endless hours in the curse of prep.... for a last lick of gloss.

LeTonkinois Varnish (American Rope & Tar LLC) is the way to go for cruising.
Because it's simpler, imco. It's an all vegetable oil varnish with no volatile solvents,
no thinning required. Doesn't crack or flake. This is a permanent varnish. You
should be able to recoat over the original for as long as you have the boat.....
go to FAQ http://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/. >'LeTonkinois Varnish'
After you read this, you may be asking: why Epifanes? ...well, maybe drys faster.

The original version of this French rendition of a centuries-old Chinese varnish
is now history. The original 'Classic' version has been superseded by Vernis #1.
later EDIT: Original TONK is still available

Have used Epifanes and LeTonkinois Classic & #1, one on top of the other,
( 'flatten' by 220 sanding between every coat. Tooth is always better.)
They all brush on equally well. All look just as deep after 10 coats. To me.

But in the boat's bosun locker I'll carry a can of LeTonk, (transferred into a thick
plastic jar) some s.carbide waterproof paper, scotchbrite pads, T-shirt rags/filters,
foam and chip brushes, small foam roller. No volatile varnish-specific solvents.

Look up WoodenBoatForum LeTonkinois Update
forum.woodenboat.com/ LeTonkinois Update {best I can do...Forum dates
from 2010} ...read with open mind and be aware of the post dates.

{The volatile solvent to use for (shhhh thinning) and expensive brush cleaning**
is naptha. Generic mineral spirits and paint thinners these days come in a number
of formulas, don't trust them. Why not learn to varnish without thinning??}

Users of LeTonk report problems with added coats beading up...for no reason.
Watch your rags: they may have fabric softener, soap or oil on them - don't use
tack cloths, use a water dampened T-shirt. Wear disposable gloves to keep yer
chickin-lickin fingers off the work. Don't use white or gray stearate/latex coated
sandpapers, they leave wax or weird plastic behind. So far, I trust resin bonded
3M Gold Frecut 216U Al oxide, and 3M Wetordry extra fine 320*** - rather than
Klingspor, or foreign papers that may leave residue.
DO NOT TRUST ANY_ STEARATE SANDPAPER - even upgraded
waterborne coatings Block sand lightly on flats - use a new, stiff, pre-washed
(dish liquid, multi rinse), maroon (lighter colors = smaller grit) scotch-brite pad
on curves and rounds.... lightly: cut, do not burnish. 220 grit,
nothing finer than 320. LeTonk sez: 'stretch it out with long strokes'.
Brush it on better: roll it on thin. Tip with long strokes using Jen foam brushes.

LeTonk likes over 60degrees. Some say warm the can, but imco the work and
the varnish should be the same temp. Gelomat, the flattening agent, which you
add in quantity to LeTonk for a satin finish is formulated with naptha (nobody's
perfect.) LeTonk is made with tung, linseed, and other vegetable oils, no petro's.
It still is, imco, refreshingly low tech. Most users have no problem applying it.
LeTonkinois is a French varnish. Let's forget about that. Read all you can find
on this varnish -- built on a centuries old Vietnamese formula.... Rope&Tar and
Brit sites... it's really the most amazing varnish you or I will ever experience.
One.last thing: you can use Letonk UNDERWATER. Try that with Epifaness!

Cleaning brushes: There is a soap, "The Master's Brush Cleaner & Preserver."
It is said to work on any brush, any paint, any condition.
**Favorite LeTonkinois varnish brush is cleaned by squeezing, wiping it dry of
varnish in rags or paper, then soaking in vegie oil, then swashing the oil away
using Ivory Soap & water.

***Sandpaper: All papers seem to have something added to help keep the grit
from 'corning'. Including 216U. Certain conditions, methods, humidity, heat, have
led workers away from stearate coatings. Manufacturers are cagey about telling
us what 'dri-lube' is on the grit. Sandblaster MSDS suggests it may be something
to do with titanium dioxide. Not a dust you'd want in yer lungs. 3M Sandblaster
synthetic Cubalon abrasive paper is touted to be "ideal for sanding between
coats of paint and varnish". That's pretty specific! I'll check this out right away.....
3M must be responding to the gripes. Be great to have a trustworthy sandpaper.
{EDIT, later post: See Post #125}

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LeTonkinois adds nothing to give its varnish UV protection. The formula evidently
provides a natural resistance to UV damage for the film and the covered material.
Corporate varnishes add UV additives to their mix. Some diffuse light and heat
and reflect some UV away. Another will harden the outermost mil-surface to keep
its reflective gloss. Another prevents organic ingredients from oxidizing and
getting moldy, thereby stabilizing layers - probably plenty more chem-tweeks...

A comparison test by a responsible third party would help settle many claims.
One that includes long term exposure, examination of wood surfaces and fading.
AND settle, once & for all, the argument whether epoxy sealer is really necessary!
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*Epifanes Clear Gloss: 25-50% naptha. / 2.5% xylene. / 2.5% 2-butanone oxime.
/ 2.5% mixture of branched & linear C7-C9 alkyl 3-(3-(2H-benzotriazol-2-yl-5-
(1, 1-dimethyl-ethyl)-4-hydroxyphenyl propionates. / 2.5% 4-tert-butyphenol.
/ 2.5% cobalt bis (2-ethylhexanoate). Which means there is between 37.5%
and 62.5% remaining phenolic resins and non-synthetic wood or seed oils......
Not including user app volatiles, etc.

.....Just saying. Don't mean to rub it in.:D

I guess my "ah-ha" was on the filler stain underneath. My "blonde" mahogany coamings look great, but natural or not, I like the sumptuous color of that rubbed Chris Craft red mahogany stained color in the photo above.
3 years on, my coamings still look great with Epifanes. The trim pieces at the top of the cockpit benches are worn off where you'd expect wear. My hatch track brightwork is in need of a recoat not sure what might be different for those pieces to be looking thinner and in need of refinishing. I just yanked off and stripped my whole companionway to go with the previously mentioned hatch boards - I didn't refinish any of those in 2011 with everything else. Those parts are all stripped, bleached, and ready for final sanding and finishing.
I'd be curious to test your Le Tonkinois stuff Ebb.

Never stained outdoor wood, so this is from reading....and FOR discussion.

The stain those guys used is v e r r r y red. Interesting how it mellowed out with
multi-coats of UV varnish. Think part of the intensity of what we see in the finish is
that hot color coming through. J.E.Moser waterborne aniline dye stains (no filler)
available from Woodworkers Supply 'have a good rep for lasting'. There are no
transparent stains guaranteed not to fade. Moser's specific dyes for mahogany are
all antiqueing stains, but their dark red is fairly bright, and could be redded-up
even more with specific color powders to come close to the ChrisCraft red mahogany.
Waterclear fillers are here. (AquaCoat is one - don't know if it is OK out of
doors, would ask their tech. But under 10 coats of UV varnish, what can happen?)

Suppose, after final sanding prep, water stain is washed on, then the clear filler is
pressed in with a green plastic spat, then lightly leveled with a stiff plastic 'credit-
card'. When smooth, we want to seal the wood. LeTonk would have us apply a
coat or three of un-thinned.* But Epifanes - not sure here - its quantity of solvents
may attack the filler (but hopefully not, imco, the waterborne stain). Uncertain
as to the Epifanes schedule, but a 'sanding sealer' is likely necessary, before varnish.

Still think that sealing wood with epoxy is the best way to protect the wood from
moisture invasion. May do this under LeTonk, even tho they say it's not necessary.
When delving into LeTonk history, the varnish seems to go over literally anything,
anywhere - in or out of the water.

It is very possible to fill the grain using almost water clear epoxy. The problem is
that sanding might go thru the stain. Will create a blotchy look if that happens.
(Taking epoxy off, back to wood, is hardly an option. If it's part of loving varnish,
ie to take it back to wood after the varnish gets tired, you can't seal with epoxy.)
So more built-up coats of epoxy to get an absolutely smooth filled grain surface
will be necessary. Laminating epoxy is not a self-flattening coating. That's why
I've never stained first. Usually, sealing is a thinned coat, then one regular coat.
The wood then stands up for itself. Never been a cheerful varnisher.

Of course, layers of UV varnish supposedly protect the wood surface underneath,
but I'm sure sun's rays will fade the wood where it is more exposed to the light.
So if a boat is parked 'one way' mostly in the marina, the mostly will show up.
The job will two tone after awhile, shadowed surfaces stay dark. Baked will fade.
Don't believe there is a stain that stands up to exposure, and that's why its not
used, normally, on boats. Everything fades in the sun, including pigmented paint!

*When I think of it, laying on the first coat(s) UNTHINNED, goes against every
thing I've learnt about how-to varnish. Le Tonkinois literature says the coating
penetrates just fine. They recommend no thinning, EVER.
In a way this old time varnish is revolutionary. As to having to wood down
sometime in the future (because you didn't maintain the finish), no epoxy sealer
(which LeTonk doesn't recommend anyway) is the easy, simple, uncomplicated,
best thing to do for the life of the mahogany! N'est-ce pas?
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Kyle, Varnishing is an art form. Have to have knack for it. And a forgiving eye.;)
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"A man is rich in proportion to the things he can afford to let alone." Thoreau

I had a painting business for 36 years. For exterior bare wood it was "stain, seal, and varnish", using oil base products, generally following the instructions on the can. For fillers, we used oil putty which we tinted to match, after the sealer coat and before the finish. You can buy colored putty at OSH. We also used colored caulk at the joints and seams as needed. Sherwin Williams has a sanding sealer in quarts. By the time I got "Sinbin", it's wood finish had been aborted, so I resorted to a tinted varnish glaze over the old polyurethane finish which looks good from across the harbor. I have had best results with a coat of Man O'War Semi Gloss Spar Varnish every six months, after a scratch sanding with 120 grit. Best to stay away from polyurethane, as it's almost impossible to sand. I have never "wooded" my teak in 20 years. The last owner sanded away the bungs. Hope this saves you some time and money.

Doing some research yesterday... Took my prepped hatch boards to my friend Jamie at Van's Refinishing here locally. Good guy, nice furniture finishing and restoration work. He repaired my coamings back when I restored the deck. He suggested stain, paste filler, varnish.

Then I saw this video from the Wood Whisperer http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/vide...ode=posts&ap=1 who suggests shellac, gel stain, ...Shellac comparison / demo & then Minwax vs gel stain is the subject of the video.

Watched another helpful vid series on applying paste filler to mahogany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfm0nLXJ7Q

I suspect 100 videos, 100 opinions.

Decisions, decisions. Glad I'm not in a hurry.

Here's a Florida based pro varnisher who works in humidity and heat.
Since most varnishing anywhere will be attempted at better weather moments,
Vicente Williams has some very interesting tricks to reveal...
google Varnish Teak
http://varnishteak.blogspot.com

He mentions, but doesn't quote, Rebecca Wittman, who wrote the book on the subject.
Doesn't need to, actually.

He prefers to work outdoors.

My caution is to professionally respect the volatile solvents
that are part & parcel of traditional corporate varnish products we have accepted into our life.

Thinners, reducers, driers, de-greasers can shorten your varnish days
- and bestow upon you, not only lasting gloss,
but quality of living problems.

There are 4 blogs in this collection, all interesting!

I like your furniture man's suggestions. Yours will look like a piece of furniture, while mine looks like a varnished garage door. Watch out for shellac. It's an interior product, sometimes used to seal stain, but tricky.

Regarding the article referred by Ebb: I concur up to the point of using Cetol gloss over spar varnish, which I've never done. Having done this for a living, I can only recommend the "kiss it" method: first coat stain, second coat sanding sealer for high build, and then on to spar varnish, as many coats as your masochism can tolerate. The man's advice about thinning was right on. "Sinbin" gets a thinned coat of varnish every 6 months.

Put it to 3M in an email: What product can we use that will leave NOTHING behind
on the sanded surface...specifically when sanding between varnish coats.
My question to them mentioned stearate, latex and other coating added to the
paper surface over the grit that is meant to provide anti-clogging.

Here is the prompt answer from JohnLyman
3M Customer Contact Center
Product and Application Support
Industrial Business 800-285-3215 x 58

"We would suggest our wet or dry products 413Q or 431Q for your application.
413Q has an A weight paper backing and is available in grades 220-600.
431 has a C weight backing and is available in grades *60-180.

413Q....Use wet with water or dry. Stays flexible and cuts fast
............Use for sanding old finishes, fine featheredging, surface sanding
or last final sanding step before priming. UPC 051144-02000 to 02007.

431Q....Silicone Carbide. Can be run wet or dry. Heavy duty for increased durability.
............Use wet to reduce clogging and extend abrasive life.
............Composite, metalworking, **MRO, paint preparation.
............UPC 051144-02015 = 150Cwt// -02016 = 120Cwt// -02017 = 180Cwt//
-02018 = 80Cwt...."
*60Cwt does not appear here on his spread. (which I have condensed a bit)
**MRO = Maintenance, Repair & Overhaul.
These BLACK papers are 9x11 - and are also known as Tri-M-ite. (wud-U-say?)

This ends this 3M Product Support email... & THIS LEAVES OUT ALL
of the 3M Gold finishing papers (I've been using) for varnish work.

Go with silicone carbide between coats to insure there is no coating on the grit
to contaminate the surface you are toothing.

Not all silicon carbide papers are stearate free... as this 3M product seems to be.
3M also sells GREY (426U) open coat stearate coated s.carbide paper.
Sold to use for general sanding including paint & VARNISH. Do not use this paper.

3M 413Q/431Q are closed coat. This means there are no gaps, however minimal,
between the grits. This will not become a problem mounted on a hard rubber block.
But open coat, when sanding by hand with a folded piece, for instance, can scratch
the surface unevenly. Non-coated closed coat is going to clog or corn...but so will
open coat if that's what's happening with the varnish. Try to decorn the grit:
Compressed air, if you have it, new brass or stainless wire brushes, and dental pick
for stubborn flakes. Cleaning with a rubber belt cleaner, I assume none of the rubber
crumbles transfer to the surface being sanded. 'Credit card' corners are useful, too.

Some varnishers wet sand between coats. Never have - but may try it. Some say
wet sanding not yet 100% cured varnish is possible. Wet sanding makes no dust.
.................................................. .................................................. ........................

For those who want to seal their wood with epoxy, and want to get a head start on
grain filling using epoxy...if you can get the coating to lay down flat, and you have
enough epoxy on the surface, you can wet sand the seal coat and get a huge start on
the seemingly endless coats you need to fill the grain from telegraphing. However,
you can't sand through to wood when wet sanding. The slurry is bound to blotch raw
wood. It'll probably stain & show thru, no matter what you do to make it disappear.
Avoiding hard work, I'm 'content' with two coats and dry sanding. Varnish to level.
A somewhat esoteric woodworker's tool will be perfect here for cutting the tops off
hardened dust specks and dribbles. Steel cabinet scraper. Chesapeake Light Craft.
www.clcboats.com
You guys who insist on using beta epoxies from WetsSystem that amine blush, I
would first wash it off only with warm water and dish detergent - before wet sanding.

CPES from Smith&Co has been known to blush. Try using the fast hardner. Don't
believe CPES penetrates any deeper than slightly xylene-thinned laminating epoxy***.
Don't use CPES. But if you do, wash it before coating with another epoxy or varnish.
***100% solids (no solvents in formula) two part 2x1 laminating (structural) epoxy.
.................................................. .................................................. ........................
TEST: Coamings will be finished on all six sides, so there is plenty of hidden space to
perform this famous test to see if your varnish coat(s) is sticking to the previous one.
Select an area where a small 3/4"x3/4" square can be cross-hatched into the varnish
(after it has completely dried) with a utility knife. Keep cuts close, about 1/16" apart.
Take a piece of your stickiest tape and burnish it with a screwdriver handle onto the
damage you just created. When you pull it off with a quick tug...you don't want to
see anything attached to the tape. Houston, we have a problem here!
This reminder comes from http://www.ronbryze.com/sanding/sandpaper_info.htm
where you will find his basic intro into the gritty mystery of types and numbers.....
How-to-use tips are very hard to find. Probably because everybody hates sanding!


Feedback on this silicon carbide paper trick for varnishing is much appreciated!

Wet or dry sandpaper 150 to 180 grit for varnish sanding sealer will suffice. As I understand it, the ancient Chinese used to do their lacquering out at sea to get away from the dust. Next best thing to a spray booth, I guess. Best results when spar varnishing by hand can be acheived by keeping the varnished surfaces as vertical as possible, keeping a vacuum handy, working on a wind free day, etc.
OOO steel wool is another way to go for abrasion. You might consider wiping with a tack rag just before the next coat. Sanding into the wood will screw everything up, that's why we use sanding sealer for its high build. Semi gloss varnish will serve to hide a lot of sins on a fifty year old surface and also will last longer than the gloss due to the inclusion of flatting agents.
Finally, when you're ready to throw up your hands, consider rubbing it out after it's dry with a square or three of the brown masking paper- not the green stuff, as it has a wax coating.
Whew! Time for a beer.

.................................................. .................................................. ...................................
Kind of a question here. Finally took the time to watch LuckyDawg's second blue line,
a three part video presentation from The Master's Touch, Furniture Repair.net. Sorry
to miss the presenter's name...
From an antique furniture point of view, where our boats certainly fit, his method
will work, I think, for a restoration. Probably taking the old varnish off down (mostly)
to the wood. One problem I have is that shellac and lacquer are not liquids usual to
refurbishing the exterior woods of an Ariel or Commander. So substituting flexible
exterior varnishes in the system may take some adjustment of sealers and fillers(?)

And I wonder what that is? I think a brilliant waterborne dye stain, is the way to go
on raw wood. This will soak in, so slight sanding accidents will be forgiven. What
product, don't know. But on mahogany, imco, I will choose a bright 'mahogany' red
like the Interlux stain/filler color shown on the Varnish Lovers site.

Grain next? If we are going to a petro system, then the brown paste filler method is OK.
There is certainly a fine demo of how to apply the stuff in the videos. The dark pigment,
can be argued, will help with UV protection. I have a problem with it: Too bloody dark.
Don't want the grain dark. My inclination is to go with a clear gel filler.* Haven't
experience with that. Be great to see a demo. And a technical data sheet.

However, imco, the wood must be sealed FIRST, on top of the dye. With the dark
filler, sealer will probably be a petroleum product. Something the filler will be cozy with.
It is not clear to me if the filler 'coat' after sanding has to be sealed, as well. Or do we go
straight to varnish. And the varnish, with this system, will be Epifanes, or a solvent based
petroleum varnish to be completely copacetic. I've used Epifanes, and like the result.

But.... I am swearing off these varnishes and paints that require proprietary solvents to
apply properly. Have to go with the other stuff.

So where does sealing with (100% solids, no solvent) epoxy fit in? (Can't over oil base.)
Can use a solvent thinned coat over a custom mix of J.E.Moser waterborne dye/stain.
Usually add a second epoxy coat unthinned, let it sit, but rub it off with cloth rags
before it sets up. 3rd coat possible, for extra microns, it's necessary to lightly sand 220.
{**Now, wondering if waterborne AquaCoat paste can, at this point, be
applied on top of the epoxy which would avoid having to flatten a hard all epoxy filled
surface.} Then move to whatever varnish system blows yer skirt up.
{ Epifanes is also applied over waterborne coatings and epoxy sealer. without problem.}
.................................................. .................................................. ....................................
*AquaCoat waterborne clear gel filler. Talked with the tech who has not had this
question before. There is nothing in the MSDS that suggests epoxy won't stick to
AquaCoat. Product cozys perfectly with next step oil varnish. My problem is making sure
a 100% solids laminating epoxy, as a sealer, sticks to the AquaCoat filler. It is applied
just as the brown poop on the Furniture video, with final 'credit card' scraping for absolute
flatness. Surface also has to be toothed, but dyed wood cannot be scoured, except
perhaps, VERY slightly. It's critical that the epoxy sealer bonds to the surface.......
Better Way:
**How about reversing the process: fill the grain after the epoxy sealer...AquaCoat video
demonstrates a 3 coat filling process with very little sanding after the third coat.
Steps from bare wood: Dye/stain - epoxy thin coat - second coat strate epoxy, rubbed off
- block sand - 3 coats of AquaCoat filler - block sand (filler applied on the sealer means
there are a couple extra epoxy microns insurance that sanding won't break thru to raw
wood.) Dry - then go to varnish with fewer layers to finish. I'll certainly do a test...

Most important coats on mahogany is certainly that final celebratory gloss coat, but the
first sealer coat - the tie coat in my interpretation - on the bare dyed wood is the key.
click videos http://aquacoat.com/
.................................................. .................................................. ...................................
Sorry, don't mean to appear pushy - but when looking for choices....
I always seem to go against the grain.:o

Ebb: I haven't watched the video, but here is some info based on my experience. Oil based dye stains are for interior use and will fade in sunlight. You might want to check the water borne variety. I've stayed away from the water borne products due to being an old dog, but they may require a sealer I'm not familiar with. Paste wood filler is an oil base product used to fill porous grains e.g. oak floors and furniture. It used to come in light and dark. I haven't seen it in use for years, but I believe it's applied first and sanded into the new wood (check with a furniture guy on that one). Oil based wood conditioner is used to seal fir and pine prior to staining to get rid of dark blotches when the oil based stain is applied. It will have the effect of lightening the stain when applied. I don't think it's necessary for teak, but I'm not sure. Epiphanes is a fine product. As I remember it is oil based (check the label). Shellac and lacquer are interior products.
Here is a finish schedule for new shaped and sanded wood: 1) (Maybe) paste wood filler and sand. 2) (Maybe) Wood Conditioner 3) Exterior stain. Check with Kelly Moore. Cabot's Semi Transparent Stain should get you the look you want. 4) Sanding Sealer from Sherwin Williams - an interior product but it works for our purposes. Sand the sealer, not the wood. Now apply Crawfords oil putty tinted to match for minor voids, etc. 5) Finish varnish.
I'm not sure if epoxy can be sanded, that's why I go with Sanding Sealer.
Check with the boss or the sales rep at KM re water borne products and compatability. Test your system on another piece wood, read the instructions on the label, and give it hell!

My radical Paleo diet requires I raise a goblet of Chardonnay rather than a good ale
to you, Captain!:D

Hope it works out for you, and don't forget - George You Know Who guarantees it.

Have Honduras for the coamings, want them done up in an oil varnish, enhanced
with a glow like one of those fabulous fiery red mahogany Interlux filler/stains the
Varnish-Love Club guys use. Sworn off petro now - no more volatile chemicals. The
mahogany has myriad grain lines to fill. Will not be using the dirty brown oil grain filler
- seen on the Furniture Masters site, way too gloomy for my taste - anyway.

Not as easy: AquaCoat waterborne clear gel filler on a hot dye may be the answer.
It's not an exterior product...but onsite photos show some woodworkers use it on
outdoor furniture projects. Doesn't prove anything - unless it's been there ten years.

There is no transparent dye/stain that will not fade in sunlight. Some of the best
metallic waterborne aniline dyes last longer than others, but still must consider it
'interior'. Sunlight through a window will fade and degrade any organic object inside
a room. Varnished mahogany on the water is pretty ridiculous anyway, thinking
about it. Never saw no outdoor grand piano....or varnished ChrisCraft swinging
on a mooring. We do it anyway - do it for the WOW! - if nothing else, ten frickin
coats will delay the mahogany from bleaching blond . Maybe...one more season.

Expect this new clear filler will do fine. Am also guinea pig for a 100% LeTonkinois
varnish job, which has no added material to make it more resistant to UV. Am
persuaded that waterproofing the coamings is the most important first step.
Epoxy encapsulation stays healthy under varnish as long as it's there to protect it
from UV. Waterproofing is the best protection we have for ALL exposed wood.
Clear coats: damned if you do, damned if you don't. "Time for another coat, McDuff!"

The 'tech' I spoke with second time, turns out he is proprietor of AquaCoat....Brian.
Cool! Good guy... fending off this curmudgeon. Ordered a couple qts of AquaCoat
filler, but have to wait until the weather gets above freezing for it to ship.
Want to play around with his red mahogany waterborne dye. He says the dye is the
best metallic aniline - we know waterborne dyes penetrate deeper than all others,
including alcohol. Couple qts UPS. Possible to add J.E.Moser powder to kick the color...
I asked.

Like this: After final sanding, want to dye the bare mahogany first, before anything
else. Asked what he thought, if I then seal with 2 coats of clear laminating epoxy?
{Lightly sand - then fill the remaining grain with AquaCoat clear filler. Sand again
for tooth to varnish....thinking that there'll be a few extra microns of separation
from the dyed wood thanks to the epoxy coats....for cautious sanding.}

Added, "Imagine that minor sanding glitches of exposed bare wood could be toucht
up easily by passing a damp stain rag over the surface. Rub it dry, nobody notices."
Brian didn't like the idea because it can create weirdness wherever it gets into pores.
( he didn't use the word 'weirdness') But if a retouch is noticed in a particularly clear
bright finish, it'll be a....disaster. {But I'm thinking, tops of tiny peaks, not lakes.}
This method assumes that in sync with water dye, epoxy will bond to bare wood.

He suggested a variation: after staining is completed, fill the grain with AquaCoat.
Filler is 'credit carded', flat as possible, in two or three coats, with the least amount
of sanding necessary. {Very hard to estimate that - and attaining a flat surface is
absolutely necessary for a fine finish. So, the step has to be included in the system.
The dyed wood surface is right there under, but not under, the filler. Scarey.
Even if the prep is finessed by an artist, there'd be hardly anything to sand...even
lightly. The surface legitimately needs to be prepared for the next step... Epoxy.}

BUT, more importantly, if epoxy sealer here is put on top of a 'lesser' coating,
it's unable to bond to bare wood. Main purpose of epoxy is structural, not cosmetic.

well, that's my argument, and it may have given Brian a moment to agree with the
first method. But he can't give his 'blessing', that's my hook. Have to experiment.
Problem with our coamings is that they are NOT furniture. Like hand rails, rub rails,
even the companionway trim and drop boards... they have work to do, & perform.
.................................................. .................................................. ..............................
"How long will Epoxy survive sunlight" http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm
Very well done study comparing 6 epoxies, by Vaclav Stejskal

............Anybody else think they might go the waterborne route??.............
'Traditional' varnish coating. No waterborne varnish No Bristol No polyurethane No
Cetol. (Clear coatings all burn in sun UV. Some get ugly - become a PITA to remove
or maintain. Ergo: oil varnish is not nice - except to look at - but more forgiving.)
.................................................. .................................................. ...................................

This is getting to be pretty exotic and out of my limited realm of knowledge. You might try to find a wood filler that accepts stain.

Haven't tried it.
Dye supplier, J.E.Moser, has a clear paste wood filler that won't shrink & is easily sanded.
What makes a paste filler easily sanded? Let's check out its Exotic Content:

MSDS
"Section II. Hazardous Ingredients
J.E.Moserr's Grain-Fil Clear Paste Wood Filler

Acrylic Resins - *CAS#: Proprietary
Urethane Polymers - CAS#: Proprietary
Water - CAS#: 7732-18-5
Propoxy Propoxy Butanol - CAS#: 29911-28-2
Synthetic Amorphous Silica - CAS# 63231-67-4
**Polyethermodifieddimethylpolysiloxa - CAS#: Proprietary
Propylene Glycol - CAS#: 57-55-6"

This list is ONLY the Hazardous Ingredients , including evidently: Water - CAS#: 7732-18-5

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
"May be tinted with water based dyes and pigments."
Assume that means mixed into the paste, not after cure.
"Compatible with oil or water based stains and finishes."
Except for the frankenstein ingredients, sounds like neat stuff.
Doesn't ship to California and Oregon. http://woodworker.com/grain-fil-mssu-922-828.asp
We don't need no hazardous water 'round heah!
.................................................. .................................................. .........................................
* CAS Chemical Abstracts Service. a chemical data base of the ACS.
Probably have to be a member.
Imagine looking up one of those composite numbers, and being able to understand what it said.
.................................................. .................................................. .........................................
**Polyether, a silicone/urethane hybrid, known as the 'other choice' of 4 synthetic tube
rubbers available from your local marine emporium. Silicone, p.urethane, p.sulfide, p.ether.
The rest of the germanic creation, after 'modified', is the long word for PDMS silicone grease.
Whatzit doing in grain filler? {Argg-g! (cascass... Ca KASSs)... something in my throat.:p}
Sand this Proprietary filler and spread silicone all over the work...don't think so!
.................................................. .................................................. ........................................
Thread: Silicone is truly evil. - Pearson Ariel
www.pearsonariel.org > Forum > Ariel Association > Technical

This hazardous ingredient (J.E.Moser is right about that!), 'PDMS, is an optically clear, non-toxic,
non--flammable, inert polymer otherwise known as silicone oil or grease.' wiki
EXOTIC FASTFOOD
Scrambled eggs at McDonaalds are made with eggs and an 'egg-blend' that incudes PDMS. It's
also in the oil that browns Chicken McNuggets & French fries, where it acts as an anti-frothing
agent. It's the sil in SillyPutty. Found in 1000s of shampoos, shaving cremes, and beauty products.
It's everywhere, rubber gaskets, roofing caulks, sealants, (and it's the evil oil in your gelcoat.) wiki

What mental process decides it's good to EAT THIS CHEMICAL? What makes it edible?
Where is it written that this synthetic oil is not toxic to the human digestive track and liver?
Who said OK to this? .... our pals: The American Chemical Society, and McUSFDA.
.................................................. .................................................. .......................................
not going to order it today. Or a McPolymer
This grain filler, rather innocuous, is a waterborne non-flammable material packaged in a can.
Why illegal in California? A couple alcohols, couple resins, water, couple edible chemical oils:
silicon & propylene glycol, a little fumed silica to make things jello. What's not to like?

That's pretty esoteric stuff. You might consider performing the job in Vegas.

Varnishing is a bit of a crapshoot.
The house (the manufacturers) have the edge.
So when you're laying down your luster on the coamings, in a way you're betting that the
outcome will be in your favor.
A fabulous varnish job attempts to perpetuate the myth that you're smart - and can afford
the luxury of time and money it takes to keep the camouflage perfect and envious.
Luck, of course, has nothing to do with it.
It's all in how you played the varnish game.

If we're looking for entertainment, we could take in the casino's Penn and Teller magic act.

Can see an opening knife throwing performance by The Whistleblowers whose Chemcorp,
CIA, and Federal Public Health Official targets are standing on stage in revolving doors.
The participants appear to be dressed in wet rubber suits, but in reality each is covered,
head to toe, in crystal clear, non-toxic, non-flammable, inert PDMS grease.....
Which gives them an edge.
Obviously it's an illusion.:rolleyes:

You certainly are "waxing" poetic about this. Here's advice from my first boss on my first job: "Dip it deep and swing it wide". Now that I do more sailing, it's the Pilsner Urquells that make my varnish look great.

Repeats aren't welcome in polite company...sorry!

It's a matter of taste. Too bad that on a national scale disputes can't be settled over a
glass of brew. Sinbad, you'll have the bottom fermented, hopped 4.4 Czech Pilsner - served
in a chilled glass. I druther quaff from a wine goblet a dark top fermented Scotch ale with
low, or no hops, and a bang double yours at 8 or 9%.
We agree on one thing: little foam. I'm unable to drink grain anymore. You should feel
sorry for me. Thanks! But I did have a meal once at a white tablecloth restaurant, where
the only beer on the menu was an ice cold foreign Pilsner in a short bottle. A bit too
carbonated for my nose.... wasn't bad, wasn't bad at all. Actually had some taste!

HOW TO VARNISH
May have mentioned the following before: I've tried to locate the article, which appeared
of all places in National Fisherman, two or three decades ago! The article was headlined
something about this old pro east coast varnisher who breaks all the rules when it comes
to getting it on the wood. Photo showed him varnishing a gridiron wide mahogany stern,
or was it yellow pine, on a classic wooden lobster boat...Lost Claws - Nova Scotia (maybe).
Had him saying something a lot like your old boss.

Maybe he was your old boss! (Of course,I can't remember the quote)...Something like....
Just get it on any way it goes, don't matter. Don't worry about the foam, just slap it on.
Maybe thinned the first coat, maybe didn't...Then, stretch it out with your long strokes....

Can't add any more here without making something up.... but it obviously impressed me
that this pro got the coating on as quickly as possible....flattened it out....brushed it out
wide.....no BS....no mystery.
'Swing with it.' Rhythm has a lot to do with it.

Haven't done really any wide vertical surfaces. Recently heard that your last stokes
should be vertical. Horizontal leaves you open to sags - the gods don't forgive sags!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~



Later edit, 1/29/2017. ONLY ONE VARNISH RULES THEM ALL:

LE TONKINOIS.

WARN YOU! THIS PROCESS IS SO SIMPLE YOU'LL LIKE VARNISHING AGAIN. TONK
IS APPLIED 'OUT OF THE CAN' WITH NO THINNING ALLOWED. ROLL IT ON. TIP IT
OUT WITH FOAM. NO BRUSH CLEANING OR STORING. NO PETROLEUM. DECANT
INTO THE AMAZING STOP LOSS BAG. ALL VARNISHING PROBLEMS GONE!!!

What more do you want? No thinning solvent, no adding solvent. I've gotten a grand
piano finish using this "oil" that doesn't call itself a varnish. Ebb's method is to use
EpifanesMOLTOPREN micro-foam 4" rollers* (on a wire frame) and Jenny's** for
tipping (without wetting the foam) This means: no thinning allowed - no brush cleaning
and no solvents connected with that. No TOXIC products are used with this varnish.
220 aluminum grit sandpaper is not for sanding, but to lightly cut mini mountains off
(no dust making) -- then a rubdown with 3M maroon 7447 nylon pad . Dull surface.
Specifically this nylon pad only, because it has no added oil, wax or silicone product.

Varnish rolls on thin and even, without sagging, without curtains. With a nice mild
linseed aroma. LeTonk says epoxy primer not necessary. Without filling surface it'll
take 8-9 applications to create a mirror finish.
Repairs or recoat is normal, coating flattens and smoothes, repairs disappear.

Use a Wooster Pelican Pail*** that has liners and allows one handed roller loading
while rolling the coating, with the other. Magic.

Using StopLossBags (Duckworths), decanting Vernise#1**** out of its square can into
a clear plastic bag, that you squeeze air out to preserve the coating from skinover. It's
probably better, each opening of the varnish container, to pour what you intend to use
thru a cone filter. Job remains get saved. Bad idea. Because the varnish ends up with
these transparent jelly-globs, that must be strained out. Really shouldn't save air
exposed varnish from the pail, unless you're a cheapskate like me.

*SMS Distributors, http://www.smsdistributors.com/ {seems to be a one man
curmudgeon operation - you have to squeeze the order phone number out of him!! }
**JEN is a brand of wedge-tipped foam brush that has wood handles. Simply the best.
***Home Depot, Pelican imco is one of the best boat painting tools of all time!!
****American Rope and Tar, www.tarsmell.com/ {mom & pop)

DANCE OF THE GLOSSEER
As for varnishing wide surfaces: recently tonked Lit'lgull's new wide coamings, about
10x72 inches. 5 square feet... I'm used to wetting out short sections and tipping quickly,
then another short to tip into a wet edge. Multiple stop-n-goes. Did one side flat on the
bench and then the other side hanging from a frame. So that's 4 sides times 8, which is
32 sides. 160 sq ft!. Have to wait 24hrs each coat, before a lite prep.
Discovered something amazing for this stop & go varnisher:

Just rolled whole sides, and tipped end to end 4-5-6 times. drawing the wedge-tipped
foam with the grain whether flat or hanging vertically. Only once got curtains... knew
why and didn't make it happen again. The rollers (above) are made for this stuff, the
micro-foam fills up and releases evenly over the whole surface. Takes maybe a minute
and a half to roll a side!! Hardest part is tipping, walking forth and back, along the
coaming, trying to just touch not pull the varnish.
Fastest, nicest, most pleasant varnishing I've ever done!

CHEERS ! ! !

Seems we have digressed. "Don't set your pale ale next to the varnish." Back in the "good old days", varnishing against the grain was a firing offense, so apparantly your man may was breaking the rules. If you find a sag on your 3rd of many coats, pull it up vertically with a dry brush, then finish with the grain. If it's dry, smooth it out with an orbital sander , and thin your varnish a little more on the next coat. Cheers!