Kyle, my bilge pump is screwed to a small board wrapped in lead to keep it on the bottom. I like this setup because I can pull the whole mess up and out to work on it when the bilge pump starts having fits.
Printable View
Great thought. I had imagined sticking it down with epoxy or wedging a board in. Does the lead wrapped board deteriorate sloshing around in the bilge water?
Yeah, but it's removed each season and in and out of there a lot during the season, so there are plenty of opportunities to inspect it.
All you'd really need is something to attach the pump to and heavy enough to sink it. I wonder what the smart guys/gals on the forum do with theirs? I suppose the search button would turn up a lot of alternatives, but I'm at work, so I suppose I should get back to it. ;)
Kyle,
On Arthur we have a manual pump who's hose goes to the deepest part of the bilge just aft of the keel void. I pump this out by hand when needed which up to now has only been after the ice melt from the fridge has drained out. It is a Titan whale gusher and can really move a lot of water in a hurry. Just to see what it could do I filled the bilge up with water and had it pumped dry in under two minutes.
http://images.westmarine.com/full/03525_f.jpg
We also have an electric bilge pump (Rule 2000 I think) mounted into the floor of the bilge using 3/16" SS screws. It sits below the sole access panel closest to the companionway. Does a Commander have two access hatches? The glass is thick enough there that 3/16" does not penetrate through and beside all you would go into would be the keel void which is dry as a bone right :rolleyes:. Remember to mount the switch higher than the pump which is easy since the bilge floor slopes up fast right there.
I like this system because the electric pump stays high and dry 99% of the time but is there if needed. It is also easy to get to for inspection and cleaning. I have not measured exactly how much water has to be present to turn the bilge pump on but I ran a hose into the bilge after initial set up and I took a minute or two to "fill" the aft bilge to the turn on level. Some say you need two pumps, some more. I think that the important thing is to have at least one manual and one electric and of course one bucket ;).
Sounds like your windows need rebedding. :eek: We did it last year and it was a messy but straight forward job. Took all day to do the first two but an hour to do the last two! We bought a big 'ol piece of 1/2" Lexan from the local glass house and I cut the panes using the old ones as templates. I cut them out over-sized and did final shaping using my table top sander. Follow Lackey's advice and use longer screws and nuts during the initial set-up. Makes life a lot easier. I recommend using butyl I got mine at ACE. If you have time fill in the void between the inner and outer skins using the techniques described by Ebb. Makes for a tigher, cleaner final product. I remember the hardest part of the job was cleaning all the junk (Silicon 5200 buytl) off the old frames. Finally ended up using a wire wheel on my drill. Took it off pretty fast
Andrew
Thanks Andrew. Great info. My bilge system - like you describe on Arthur - is based on the recommendations in the extensive bilge discussion at http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/s...ighlight=bilge
And I think there is a "Silicone is Pure Evil" (!) discussion too.
I'm similar to you - dreadfully slow start (all day for the first pair, and two hours for the other), and once I figure it out it seems like cake. Just have to get my hands in it. Kinesthetic learning I think they call it. I want to come hang out with some of you and watch your handywork!
Kyle,
I am a newbie at this too!
I figured out that one must be able to,
"Carryout airborn ambulatory activity using the posterior portion of ones outherwear.:D"
Andrew
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1...3815407gq3.jpg
A smattering of pictures. A bit less sailing this year with an infant! Still able to get out with the aid of the occasional afternoon baby sitter.
Introducing my 13 and 10 year old neice and nephew from Atlanta to sailing last weekend, and a whole family sail for father's day.
Outstanding job!!! Nothing better than time on the water when you're a kid-young or old.
I left one of our sailing dinks at the Father-in-laws cabin one year in an effort to get the younger generation interested. Offered to take them out, showed them how easy it is, don't worry about breaking anything but your head, told them they could even putz around at their own whim ( in the protected bay ). Nothing. Only whinned and begged to ride the PWCs. :(
Nice sail today. Shore breeze made Lake Michigan flat as a pancake with 12-15 knots or so. Ride along if you like - a one minute clip that looks like we are FLYING. http://picasaweb.google.com/kyle.amy...34443765523346
I had the logos I found on eBay repaired and rechromed. Sparkley!
Sadie continues to get more confident aboard. As she was headed forward today, I started to say... and she finished my thought - "I know Daddy, three points of contact!" She is quite a swimmer for 4 and we have jumped in the drink in our life vests and practiced MOB. At the dock, she has taken on the jobs of uncovering and covering the cowl vent and tiller with their canvas before and after sails. Good crew is hard to come by. This particular one generally sports a princess nightie - her usual sailing garb. :)
I have a set of Commander badges that are heavily pitted that I would like to have redone. How successfully does the process fill in what appears to be a pretty low form of metallic life that has been abused? What kind of price should I expect?
They look great!
Before and after below. I suppose if I had asked the guy to pay special attention to the pits, it might have turned out differently. I was more interested in piecing together the port logo. There is some pitting as you can see, but the chrome over them looks smoother than the close up makes it appear. It was $260 with the repair and chroming. Don't know if I got a fair deal, but it is difficult to find anyone who will chrome pot metal. Dynamic Custom Chrome http://www.dynamiccustomchrome.com/index2.html in the Detroit area.
Another option is to purchase a replacement. Bristol Bronze has duplicated the Ariel and Commander plates. Here is the info from the 2003 thread:
>>>>>>>
The part number for the Commander logo will be BB0304 and it will sell for the same price as the Ariel logo."
Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224
--------
Note:
Plates are $50 each + $6.50 S&H
PO Box 101
Tiverton, RI 02878
401-625-5224
www.bristolbronze.com
<<<<<<
For more discussion, search on "logo plate."
Ouch! Or I could have done that... I seem to remember contacting Bristol before I bought the eBay plates and for some reason I didn't go that route. I sent Bristol a message this morning asking if that price and availability are still accurate. Will let y'all know ASAP.
FYI
Current pricing on Bristol Bronze website is $85.00 each.
I guess I should hurry.
click on their price sheet link and look under "coaming logo" on the downloaded file.
Right, so $170 for both cast in bronze plus chroming. Not cheap to chrome anything nowadays, but as I preferred. Maybe mine wasn't such a bad deal.
__________________________________
<TABLE class=email-table cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width=760 border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="WIDTH: 760px; WORD-WRAP: break-word">Dear Kyle,Thanks for the e-mail and for your interest in Bristol Bronze.The BB0304 Pearson Commander Coaming Logos in Bronze are $85.00 each plus shipping and handling. We currently have them in stock.If you would like to place an order you can do so by using the order form that is part of our web site or, if you wish you can phone me and I can take your order down.Roger W.Bristol Bronze401-625-5224</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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Nice sail to winter quarters over the weekend. 20kts from the NNW made for speedy downwind sail with following rollers. Surfing provided several 9kt+ rides. Miles Davis' Cellar Door Sessions provided the soundtrack.
------------
a) So long Muskegon
b) Sun breaking through along the way
c) Headed up the Grand River to The Wharf marina
Sounds like a great sail to end the season and get you through Winter. We had a really nice Fall here in the NE too. I was hauled out last Friday. :(
"Pulled over" by the Sheriff last weekend. Just checking for life jackets, etc. Sadie popped up from below and had hers on. He started asking her questions about her DOB and how to spell her name... and then handed her a "ticket" for being caught with her life jacket ON - redeemable at a local ice cream stand for a free cone. She thought is was the coolest thing ever and was great reinforcement for her keeping her jacket on.:) A nice touch by the sheriff's office, I thought.
Glorious sail today. Steady 16kts, 2-3footers on Lake Michigan - blasting along at 6kts. It was a beautiful day. Sailing at its finest. Afterwards "Hey Sadie, thanks for sailing with me today - that was great!" "Oh, I love sailing Daddy!" (I am perfectly aware that we are time limited on that exchange)
Couple pix below - first two by Sadie a) my deck is always ship shape, and b) Captain at the helm. C) is Sadie in her favorite sailing spot.
Glad we sailed today... Here's tomorrow:
Monday
West storm force winds to 50 knots veering northwest gales to 45 knots. Showers and a chance of thunderstorms until midday... then showers in the afternoon. Waves 12 to 16 feet. :eek:
Kyle - sounds like you might have to tuck a reef in! :D
Re my post above, here are some pictures from the storm. Might be more than a reef tuck!
http://www.walma.com/windypier.htm
I don't have hard-wired tunes for Lucky Dawg. Amy got me this for my b-day... and it rocks… http://www.amazon.com/Hercules-i-XPS-120-Outdoor-Speakers/dp/B000X2B5U4/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254791115&sr =1-6
Splash-proof and apparently pretty drop proof. The perfect iPod portable sailing tune provider. Rubber surround keeps it nicely glued to the deck while heeling. The sound is pretty darn good for a little 6x12 boombox.
For original $179… still pretty good. But for $59?? You can’t go wrong.
p.s. Oop, apparently out of stock now at Amazon... $99 at http://www.nextag.com/Hercules-i-XPS...43/prices-html
Had a nice sail south to Grand Haven a couple weeks ago and we were able to borrow an empty slip up the Grand River. Hung on for another week and had a couple last minute sails.
a) Headed out the Grand River for our last sail of the season. Sadie brought her snow suit along - it was pretty chilly
b) the sun blasted through overcast skies the moment we hoisted the genny
c) on the hard for another long winter's nap. Ug.
65* in mid-November! Out for a top-down ride with Sadie on Sunday - that's my in-law's '66. Required a stop by LD for a brief hello.
UGA VII dies unexpectedly at age 4
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/19/geo...ead/index.html
RIP Big Dawg
Why not bring the new UGA to the stadium as a puppy,
Fans would respond to that, right?
And there would be no doubt or confusion.
Fan response, yes, but possibly a little English Bulldog responding with an anxiety disorder :eek: Getting used to 90,000 crazy Bulldog fans might be a bit much for young and hypersensitive dog-ears! It is freaking loud in there!
Busy this spring - Tired of a non-planing sailing hull, I installed some new power. Note my new 65 megawatt coal-fired power plant - equipped, of course, with an electrostatic precipitator and a wet flue gas desulfurizer system for emission controls. The weekly coal deliveries are tedious, but the girl turns heads.
Attachment 6587
E A S Y boys... Ahhhh, ready for sailing. That badass forklift can handle 36000 lbs, but it still makes me nervous to watch.
Sailed Lucky Dawg to Muskegon Friday - about a third of it in the rain. I was in a borrowed slip in Grand Haven waiting for a convenient time to move her north to Muskegon and they rented the slip "You need to be out by noon" - I think they believed me to be a squatter. Anyway, it turned out to be a really nice sail once the rain stopped. In all of my sailing years, that is actually the first time I have left port in the rain. Luckily the sail was a beam reach at hull speed all the way, so the rain from the main wasn't dripping on my head as it would have close hauled. I offered to take Sadie out of school for the day to accompany, but "uh, Daddy... it is raining..." (with a very teenager sounding "duh!" in her 6 year old voice.)
Got to try out my new automatic bilge pump system, hardwired GPS, new electrical panel, and upgraded prop with 8 vs 8 1/2 pitch. Also discovered that chromed winches don't work very well in a downpour, and that, though I don't fancy a bimini, some sort of canvas hatch cover could be helpful while underway in the rain. Upgrade pictures to follow.
p.s. looking at the main page, I see I have now highjacked 3 out of 4 sub-forums. Sorry!
New panel. Added an auto / man bilge switch - my original (from PO) just plugged via duplex and a lighter plug into the 12v; a battery meter through a 3way SPDT switch that will accomodate a second battery at some point - stays in the center-off (non draining) position unless needed to check battery level; and a simple West panel. What you can't see is the 3/8" pilot light that illuminates on the reverse side of the bulkhead when the bilge activates. A Don Casey idea that made sense to me. Wire over the top of the box is my hardwired GPS cable that reaches the GPS bracket on the bulkhead. I am quite pleased with my first shippy electrical project.
picture 1 - the mess that was inside the box - complete with wire nuts... and some interestingly connected circuits....
picture 2 - lots of extra notes and ID tags so I could remember what was what - and of course my handy dandy owners manual at my side
picture 3 - finished product.
We spotted and sailed around this lady yesterday. The 185' Europa from The Netherlands - headed for Chicago for Tall Ships 2010 taking place this week. We'd missed the fleet at our home port while vacationing in Chicago.
Really remarkable to see up close - and a bit intimidating to round her bow!
more pix of this beautiful ship at http://www.google.com/images?q=Europ...w=1259&bih=606
...about not much weather. They were expecting things to be a little more critical, hence Weather Channel folks on the beach this morning at Lucky Dawg's home port of Muskegon, MI. Saw this on TWC while at the gym:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/video...ecast-4276#464
Sustained storm force winds at 50kt forecast and building to 10-15 footers until tomorrow evening. http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/LM/848.html
Even since this AM, the waves are getting more impressive - http://surfgrandhaven.com/640cam2.php (4 rotating views) (for perspective, the outer and inner lights are 36 and 56 feet off the pier - and the pier is about 8' off flat water.)
I find all this wind and water power pretty amazing.
Talking about weather -
We had a storm about 3-4 weeks ago, when that tropical system was down by Cuba with a band of moisture streaming all the way up the East Coast. Worst I have *ever* seen it here, in ~7 years of living aboard. Started around 1AM, and in no time at all, we had honest 4-5' swells running through the marina.
My boat was in the slip next to the Walker Bay dinghy, below. The end of that dock *should* be attached to the dolphin behind it, about 8' feet away. Within 15-20 minutes of the storm starting, that had given way and so I had nothing to attach Katie to. If you look close, you can barely see a black hook on the dolphin at the point where the 2 lower pilings meet the taller. There is another black hook on the solo piling, mid-point of the power boat in the background. Those hooks were under the tops of the waves.
The wind was coming straight across the Bay thru that gap you can see in the background, sustained at over 50, gusting I believe to hurricane strength. The airport 8-10 miles inland registered a 64mph gust.
When I was on top of waves, I saw others that were nothing but a wall of whitewater completely filling that gap, and the keel of that old Cris Craft more than I ever care to again. At the bottom of the waves, that view was completely hidden from view by water. Just sitting in the cockpit, I frequently had to hold on with two hands, because the boat was bucking so bad, getting slammed when the dock lines would catch her up (but she never, not once, shipped water over the stern! Even with all that was happening, I was amazed...). It was about then that I realized being onboard would soon become seriously hazardous to my health, and that there was absolutely *nothing*, nothing at all, that I could do about the situation; it was, in a word, overwhelming.
I never ever thought I would say this, certainly not while berthed in a marina but - I abandoned my boat, clutching a small duffel bag of what I could grab fast that would help me earn the money to buy all-new stuff, including a boat. I thought she was gone. When I came back on deck, I found that the dock had literally broken into pieces while I was packing that duffel. Took me 3 attempts to get from my boat to the dock, then had to make it across the pieces pictured below, in the midst of all the above. Craziness. In the end, Katie made it out just fine; the storm laid down really fast in 10-15 minutes after I left her, before everything broke *all the way* loose, and boats were actually banging against and sinking each other...
Attachment 7047
Here's the view from standing next to the stern of the Hunter in the above picture.
Attachment 7046
I hope I never go thru that again, and that nobody else has to, either!
Ummmm... yikes!!! Kurt, glad to hear you and Katie Marie made it through OK. The crew dogs too, I hope.
Clearing Lucky Dawg's deck for sanding and painting gives me the willies. I just keep reminding myself that it's been done before.
With all of the alligator cracking in my deck paint, it had to be done, but sheesh!
Attachment 7407 Attachment 7406 Attachment 7405
Ahh LD - good to see you back!
If you have any gel-coat cracks make sure you go in deep after them... or they'll be back before you know it!
Hey Rico,
Thanks for mentioning that. I had been looking at C227's tackling of the cracks. Looks like he did it before sanding. Still figuring out to what depth I need to sand. I need to take off the non-skid, but do I need to sand to the point of all gelcoat being removed or just to a solid, crack free surface? I will be pulling out my Don Casey bibles and doing some searching here, but if you care to weigh in on the subject before I get there, I'm open to any feedback!
p.s. I sent you a PM about your aluminum mast base, but it is sometimes hard to see that indicator of a waiting message - so you may not have noticed. I did get one manufactured for about $350.
Kyle, my understanding is you want to open up the cracks with say an old can opener dragged through the crack to clean out the crud and make the edges abraded to hold the filler. If you try to sand down the crack you'll have a deck as wavy as the lake. I think I got this from Mike Goodwin's repair tips on this site. Check with the site masters though. Carl
Kyle,
No sailing for you for awhile. I'm in the same boat as you though. The Princess is currently in many pieces.
Sorry for the slow reply, I have not been on the site for awhile.
I think a gallon of each is about right. I think I did have to dip into a second gallon of the white Awlgrip (I think less than a quart) to finish the non-skid.
(I just burned up some more of the second gallon with my mast rebuild project. I'll try to get some of that up soon)
The crazing you just need to buzz down and fill, its the stress cracks you need to route out. A Dremel would work fine to route out the cracks, I used a 1/8" pointed carbide bit in a 90 degree air grinder. You need to get all the way trough the gel coat. I can't remember right now but I think I filled with Duraglass.
I'll get you the info on the Vynalester paste Bob used on C299. He put it on thick and worked it into the crazed deck with a thick nap roller, rolling from all directions. It worked really well and seems to be holding up nicely. I don't see anything telegraphing through.
Mike
C227
P.S. ... Don't stress too much, there is no magic to any of this. Just don't cut corners in the prep work and it will turn out great!!
Mike and Carl - thanks for the feedback. I am presently drilling out and filling hardware holes with epoxy and addressing a couple small wet spots where stanchions were (and will never be again...) The deck is in remarkably good shape, it seems. Sanding off non skid is pretty time consuming. That stuff is strong!
Mike, I would be interested to hear about the Vynalester paste from C299 - whenever you're free. I know this is a busy time of year at a marina.
Had a couple detail questions for the refinishing people at Torresen's, so we went up and looked at our new slip for the season - I do presume I will make use of it - I am bow to bow with this boat. Another Commander knockoff - the Quickstep24. Details here and some yachtworld pix here
Attachment 7437
Attachment 7438
Boy did I speak too soon. Something didn't sound right and I drilled an exploratory hole..... HOLY$%^# Soggy deck down the stbd side and patchy sogginess on port. My humidity meter said 15-18% humidity on the hardwood setting. That seemed bone dry compared to ambient humidity. Apparently 15% means soggy. I haven't even started exploratory drilling on the foredeck. (wet inside the marker) I presume I will be sawing away the deck and replacing the core now... Ug. That's really my only avenue, right? :(
Attachment 7451
Attachment 7452
Attachment 7453
Is the core "brown mush" that you're removing? Is the deck skin delaminated? Does it give when you walk on it?
If 'no' to all of the above, you may be able to get away with drying things out, resealing the holes, and then sealing up all the avenues of water ingress before you paint.
On the other hand, since you're repainting the decks already and have everything removed, this may be a good time to do a recore and have that job behind you. It sounds like you may only have to do a couple of spots anyway, not the whole thing.
Hey Mike,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, definitely juicy brown mush. Re the decks, that's the strange thing. The decks don't seem to give / creak / make a sound and they have a sharp response to them when sounding with the butt of a screwdriver - not to say I am an expert in sounding the decks. Under the stanchions is definitely a "thud" vs a sharper tone elsewhere.
KW
I had the best luck doing just what you're doing, that is, drilling out from the bad spots until you get to good clean core material.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...3820#post13820
Sounding the decks for me was always sketchy, unless I was in a big bad spot, then there was no doubt it was a "thud".
With the drill method, you can isolate your repairs and just fix the sections that need it. It's a real pain to try and pull deck skins off that are NOT delaminated! No need to go overboard and cause yourself more work than is necessary.
Well Kyle....
Your certainly not alone with the soggy core. I'm starting to wrap up the interior work (at least in the forward end of the interior) and will be starting my lower deck recore soon also. I can tell you that for the part of the cabin roof that I recored it was far easier work than a lot of the interior work I have done so far. So I'm hoping the rest of the deck recore goes the same.
Please post lots of progress pics so I can get some hints from your job and maybe save myself some headaches.
Good luck with the project.
Kyle,
$.02. ... The princess also tapped out fine and when I went to drill out the mounting holes for the combings I had a few that spit out some wet core. The outer skin on those side decks is so thick that even in the worst areas it does not flex under foot. I just let it go on The Princess (being certain that everything was sealed up so it would not worsen) concluding that with the thick skins the core is not needed in that area anyway. on many boats the area between the combing and rubrail is not cored.
I think you could approach it this way:
1. Chuck up an allen wrench with a 90 degree bend in it.
2. Spin that sucker in each of your holes to clear out the mush.
3. vacuum out debris and blow out with compressed air.
4. Douse the area with Isopropyl alcohol to help remove moisture.
5. repeat step #3
6. repeat step #4
7. repeat step #3
8. inject epoxy thickened with something light weight like micro balloons with west system tubes and the $50. Royobi electric caulk gun. (or a regular caulk gun, I heard chicks dig guys with strong hands)
...or just cut the skins off and recore if it makes you feel better. not as bad a job as you might think.
The paste we used on #299's decks was Dura Tech Vinyl ester fairing primer.
Process:
1. Route out all the stress cracks with a 1/8" carbide in a Dremel or air grinder.
2. Knock down the decks with something around 80 grit.
3. roll on the paste working it into all crevices.
4. repeat step #2 and 3 as necessary.
Final knock down should be done with a longboard sander where ever possible.
Mike
C227
Thank for your thoughts and time replying Mike.
I've said it before - I REALLY appreciate this forum. Friends have asked me "How the hell do you know how to do this?" (I decidedly don't...yet) and I just credit y'all as my brain trust: "I have this terrific yacht-specific forum that can answer any question imaginable in a matter of hours." The info is available, I suspect, in other places and I do sample those sources, but I trust you as a group and the friendly, helpful, never-condescending tone of this forum is rarely achieved in other discussion lists. Really a remarkable resource and I can't thank you enough.
So, I feel more comfortable with the swiss cheese approach - though it looks like boat abuse. I also like the idea of using alcohol better than acetone. Cheaper for sure and probably much more earth-friendly. The mush removal worked well today. Not speedy, but seems to be pulling it out easily. For the most part, blowing air through an adjacent hole while balsa-mining worked better than vacuuming. I'm not obsessing about getting everything out - I'm going on the assumption that if I get it bone dry, what is left will just mix with the epoxy and act as filler. This approach maintains the elevation of the deck line - which I feel good about. Haven't checked it, but if there is any arch at all to that surface (or several others I'll tackle) I don't have to bother with recreating it. Estimating epoxy will be a crapshoot, but... learning as I go. Supposed to be warm and dry for the next three days (this is all outdoor work) so I'm hoping to be flexing my forearm muscles with a caulk gun on Tuesday. Thankfully the port side is nothing compared to this.
p.s. My new aluminum mast step is complete and I'll pick it up this week. Will share pix.
Attachment 7458
Can someone ID this primary winch for me? It isn't the South Coast winch in the background (which, helpfully, is inscribed as such on the top.) It is about twice the size, but hasn't a marking of any sort on its exterior. I want to download a service manual for it before cracking the top off to rebuild it. Another pic in post 55... and 81.
And... a view from the garage. All of the rot has been vacuumed away with an initial batch of epoxy injected. Easier than I thought and required less epoxy than I presumed. Stripping the coaming boards and other brightwork with Bix and curious what the final result will be. Ordered my vinyl-ester primer yesterday. Rolling along.....
Attachment 7477
Attachment 7476
I would guess it's a Merriman Brothers or South Coast Company. You might find a mark when you open it up. Freshly lubricated winches will enhance your sailing experience. Great old hardware, perfect for our boat size.
The jib sheet winches on my Ariel are unmarked.
A little progress. Crummy weather has made for a slow go of it on the deck work. I found and drilled out all my wet core. Mostly on stbd, under every stanchion, and at the bow pulpit attachment points. I have the first pass of thickened epoxy in my swiss cheese holes. Would have been easier / a one-step process had I known about release fabric - as each hole has a little concave shape to the surface. (I know, I know... release fabric...) Learning as I go! Anyway, that is slated for this week as the rain will finally go away for a couple days. (The only solace in not being in the water is that sailing-weather days have been few and far between.)
I patched my coaming boards, which had some damage upon removal, with epoxy thickened with the mahogany sawdust from sanding. The dark brown will be hidden, of course, against the cockpit sides. They'd also been patched by a PO here and there with MarineTex and the white looked bad, so I dremeled that out and filled with the same epoxy mixture. It took a lot of Bix slathered on for a lot of time, and then standing on those boards with 40 grit at times to get out the old yellow out. Finally down to nice pink mahogany. Nice weather will also let me initiate my Epifanes. What I have removed won't match the Cetol that is on the cabin door, but I'll address that over the winter. Taking apart the companionway would have added another step that would delay sailing. My family is already tapping their collective feet waiting to splash.
I may break down and rent a nearby airplane hanger to get this done inside - I fear unpredictable showers might treat my vinyl-ester fairing compound, not to mention primer and topcoat poorly
p.s. the color in pics 3 and 4 really is nice and pink like the pieces on the driveway, but doesn't look so in these!
Attachment 7524 Attachment 7522 Attachment 7523 Attachment 7521 Attachment 7520
Also got my aluminum mast base back from my CNC man. He said most of the expense was in set up, so if anyone is interested in one, let me know. I used Rico's plans to fabricate it.
A thought - is the underside cavity below the screw holes just open like that for filling with water impeding bedding compound?
Attachment 7526Attachment 7525Attachment 7527
Here's one tip - west system release fabric 3.75ft2 for 9 bucks. Nylon drapery backing - slightly firmer feel, but equal performance - 18ft2 for 8 bucks. The latter actually cuts more easily and casts off fewer whispy strings on the edges too.
Kyle , I think you're making great progress on this. The hardest part is over, which is taking the saw and making that first whack on the boat! As you near the end you will be amazed at what you've accomplished. Keep up the great work.You may miss most of the short sailing season but you will have learned a great deal about Lucky Dawg! Carry on!!!
Beautiful Base Kyle!!
:)
and great work on the dawg too!
BTW; That cavity on the mast base is necessary for the plate that is welded to the conduit through which the cables are routed from inside the cabin into the mast... This SS assembly is essentilly a 1/16" plate that fits tightly into that cavity and has a about 12" of tube going through the middle. The tube (as installed) extends 6"-8" up into the mast, and about 4" below into the compression post.
The Mast base screws go through holes in the plate fixing it (and the tube/conduit) in place...
I suppose this assembly helps keeps any water in the mast (condensation / rain water) from coming inside. - I have a small water drain-hole in the mast at 2-3 inches above the deck.
So far I've only seen this plate on the Mephisto Cat (C-155) and in no other boats...
My smurf-blue decks (Duratec vinyl ester fairing primer) are sanded down and ready for white Duratec Vinyl Ester primer. I'm thinking that will be Tuesday. I'll sift non-skid into the tacky primer and need to sand the smooth deck for two coats. I'm rolling on these primers, so that makes for some significant sanding. By the way, the people at ExpressComposites.com (Duratec distributor) are SUPER helpful and friendly. Since I am really clueless about what I'm doing (I should say clueless about what I'll be doing NEXT - I now know how to do... what I did...) Anyway, they have humored my questions very patiently. Could be ready for Awlgrip this weekend. Inside a pretty clean warehouse at Torresen's now, I have been working most nights 9 to midnight-ish. It is painful to be doing this work while the sailing season ticks away. I'll post some pictures when I find my doggone camera - it is hiding somewhere very tricky...
If you're interested, I've posted my progress in a Picasa album - https://picasaweb.google.com/1009889...858412/Deckjob# Those are up to moving inside last week.
Thankfully we have access to Amy's folks' 26' Tiara. Its fat 7.4L V8 purrs along nicely - and sucks down more fuel on a sunset cruise than Lucky Dawg does in a season. So, though stinkboating around, we're able to get out and enjoy the water. Some lazy 1-footers on Lake Michigan last night made for a very nice ride.
Attachment 7626 Attachment 7625
F I N A L L Y finished my pre-paint sanding last night at 11:50PM. When I thought I was done last week, I used powdered graphite via a sponge applicator to check my work... UG! Not even close. It very effectively showed all the pin holes. BACK around the whole boat with 80, 110, and 220. All holes gone now. Baby-arse smooth.
I swear I have been sanding for 3 months. I am SO right handed that after all of that, I may now resemble a fiddler crab...
Paint (Interlux Perfection) arrives Thursday. Was going to Awlgrip her, but Torresen's painter urged me towards Perfection - more forgiving, repairable, and a little cheaper.
Attachment 7657
This stuff is impressive<wbr>. You can watch it self-level as you apply it. Initial slight orange-pee<wbr>l appearance from the foam roller goes glass smooth before your eyes - no tipping necessary. First coat not at all, and I was a little concerned - drips I never saw coming, tiny pimples, weird / uneven coverage. EEEK! Grabbed the painter at my marina today to inspect and he said "Don't worry, that is how the first coat goes on - sand it with 320 and the second coat will amaze you" He was right.
Aiming for an 8/29 sail...
Attachment 7728
p.s. updated project album is at https://picasaweb.google.com/1009889...858412/Deckjob# Kindly disregard descriptions for non-sailors / non-AC's...
Kyle,
Never would have seen your wonderful slide show without your blue line.
Wish there was a way that the whole series, and your comments, could be brought over to this address so that it could be WIKIed in to the Commander/Ariel archives.
I have put Interlux into the same basket as West Marine and West Syetems (Gougeon Bros) BUT
your comments have convinced me to try it myself for the shiney exterior areas on litlgull. Like the self-leveling right-befor-your-eyes and the easy repair.
[EDIT
meant to add, as a 'teaser' for others to view, that I was impressed with your graphite pinhole finder method:eek: Shades of CSI
- and your party balloon method along with dacron curtain liner of fairing up a crooked hole
- and that same upholstery liner used as far less expensive "peel ply" release fabric on deck. Great tips!]
Great to meet your crew and Max, who looks like a real character!:D
Lucky Dawg is definitely a lucky dawg!
BEAUTIFUL JOB ! ! !
Hey Ebb,
Thanks a ton. Hard but gratifying work. I could be putting ALL this stuff (from the picasa link) on my Lucky Dawg page as it goes on, but I was a little concerned about dominating the board for 3 months! Maybe when it is done with, I can make a new thread and put it all on there. Hopefully there is something to be learned from someone not knowing diddly and diving in nonetheless.
Don't know how Perfection will wear, but with NONE of this process being easy so far, painting with Perfection has been nearly blissful.
Max is a good boy - rescue dog and he has been a great addition over this past summer. Not sure how good a sailor he'll be!
If MAX cain't be a sailor
maybe he can be a swab....
Whot's in a name?:D
re "CSI" - 3M Dry Guide Coat (<- link) is the product/applicator.
Spray Guide Coat (<- link) or just a lacquer spray paint apparently works too, but the way the graphite rubs into the surface seemed to be it's superior utility. And I didn't have to worry about overspray to unintended surfaces. It was a godsend for surface prep.
And thanks, I thought the balloon idea was a brief (very brief) moment of genius. It came to me at about 4AM the night before I put it into service. "Eureka!
Attachment 7730
I think I mentioned intending to buff out this paint job to address minor imperfections. If I said so, I spoke out of turn. Interlux sternly warns against buffing Perfection because as the finish cures, the resin rises to the surface and is a thin protective film that also acts as the glossy finish. In short, if you buff it, you take off the shine and diminish / destroy the protective finish that the resin provides.
Given that, I will be inspecting what I want to sand and recoat and what I can live with - there will be a little of both. Port side of the cabin, aft of the port portlight is the only problem area that I intended to fix with buffing.
Non-skid looks great. Picasa link in the posts above is updated through non-skid application. "Paint, sprinkle, paint, sprinkle, thin paint" is the application process. I can detail further beyond that hyper-brief direction if anyone cares to hear more. Came out very even.
Came up a quart short this weekend - and not another quart to be had within 100 miles. 5 quarts was plenty, but a couple coats I could have planned better for what to do with leftovers or choosing when to mix a partial batch. So I may have thrown away nearly a quart with various leftover quantities. Intended to be finished painting on Friday and haul her home to reinstall hardware, etc. in the driveway. So running out was frustrating. I had enough to finish the cabin top, so I could get started with reinstalling hardware there, if not all over the boat.
With my paint miscalculation, it will be a mad dash this week to get her launched by Saturday for a Monday sail. Still the plan...
I got the same story from Interlux concerning their basic Brightside: buffing diminishes gloss and durability. When I talked to the person on the toll-free tech line I asked if they got that question often. He replied that they did. I noted that fact indicated that it might be a good idea to warn users not to buff in the product directions on the can or the product info sheet on the website. He really didn't have a response for that. Duh.
Given that experience and the fact that I was about to apply Cetol I decided to call the number for Sikkens Cetol. Lots of other boaters I know advised me that, "putting Gloss on Cetol is a waste of time and makes work." Cetol guy on the phone found this a frustrating "rumor". He reported that quite a bit of the UV protection is in the gloss. The gloss also slows evaporation of the base color coat. They consider this a two part system that is not complete without application of the gloss. What makes it more durable than varnish from their point of view is that one part seals the wood and provides color, the other slows evaporation and reinforces sun protection. By separating the tasks they feel they get better overall performance than varnish at least in terms of durability. I replied that you'd never know that from reading the directions on the can(s). This guy was at least aware enough of good customer relations and communications to admit that this was a problem.
That's a google
Boatdesignforums has an exchange on that.
I can find nothing in the yachtpaints.com data sheet warning against buffing.
However a full cure will take two weeks. More the better.
The guys on the boatdesign form mention that.
Another points out that the gloss micron layer on top which provides most of the coating's promised protection will be compromised if buffed, that is if you take the shine away with the buffing - as you say.
Another guy says don't use anything under 2500 grit ! ! !
It's understandable you want to protect the gloss.
So why can't you wax-n-buff when it's 99% and you have to have 100? Not removing anything except the last polish and wax.
I think that if you want to get a mirror gloss like fancy concours cars get you have to use an acrylic urethane (yachtpaint's AwlCraft) used for autos, made to be sanded and sanded, clear coated & buffed. (Awlgrip's Awlcraft data sheet specs that the system has a clear coat and the coating is buffable.)
Color coatings have to be solid color. But maybe the top reclining molecules in the Perfection color gloss could arguably be transparent.
A perfectionist might try to sand and recoat cured polyester layers if each had a flattening agent mixed in. Sand to perfection then lay on a last coat of color gloss.
I see NO clear gloss in the Perfection data sheet.
To achieve concours imco you have to clear coat!
BUT neither of these two (single stage) linear polyester urethane coatings can be sanded and buffed in the classic sense.
Can't say I understand a damn thing anymore the way paint chemistry seems to blend everything together. But maybe the slightly cheaper acrylic urethane is more crystalin in structure and therfor can be BUFFED?
Kyle, the assumption here is that Perfection is a polyester urethane. Do we know this as a fact?
If it is an acrylic urethane then perhaps it actually can be sanded and buffed like Awlcraft 2000.
After the stuff cures for two months.:D
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
A 3rd FRIENDLY ALTERNATIVE:
System Three makes a waterborne WR Linear Polyester Urethane Topcoat.
This two stage system (there is a clear coat) presents no serious safety issues.
According to the Description & Application Guide it looks fairly easy to build up coats
(if you must) by putting coats on without a particular additive, and sanding,
then finishing up with a coat with a crosslinker in it. That sort of stuff.
Wouldn't know about comparing the gloss with the LPUs mentioned above,
but they all seem to promise equal performance.
Thinning WR-LPU is with water and the coating can be SANDED & BUFFED
if you put on four coats of satin color, two of clear for gloss*, then sand and buff.
Quote:
"If a higher level of gloss is desired the cured coat may be sanded and buffed. Wet sand with 600grit sandpaper proceeding in stages through 1500grit. Buff with a compound equivalent to 2500grit and finish with a product similar to 3M's Finesse-It."
.....And this is explicitly printed in the SystemThree application quide.
Not inconveniently left for forums to discuss or making a disappointing phone call.
(S.3 is also available for help throughout the workweek.
The CAVEAT. WR-LPU is notoriously difficult to use anywhere south of the 48th parallel. You will require 65/70 degress and 85%humidity.
Bateau2 - Builder Forums guys complain System 3 should have more explicit guidelines on ap temp and humidity. Some have to flood their shops !!! with water to raise humidity levels. Everyone will agree that WR-LPU is a cold weather paint.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
* On my planet we can't put a coat of clear or color over another without sanding - wet sanding usually. That means more total coats AND more time.
It isn't concours that drives us, it's just getting rid of the bugs, zits and dust specks to make it smooth enough for the next stage.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
"The end stages of Boat Building Disease can make a strong man cry."
Gary Frankel- Cockpit Confessions, Pacific Yacht Magazine (newboatbuilders.com)
No, as Jerry points out, the application instructions say nothing about not buffing, but if you read the "finishes" forum in the interlux/yachtpaint site, the tech rep who moderates the forum says over and over what I posted above. "Buff at your peril!"
These coatings are all urethanes.
Once the VOCs have evaporated - there is plenty of solvent that has to dissipate (upwards of 70%) - perhaps a polyester urethane coating becomes virtually inert at that point and with a little tooth applied to the surface, maybe an acrylic urethane clear coat could be rolled or sprayed on - and that buffed?
Solvents are the problem, as it may be difficult for them to disapate quickly through a tight, dense, hard skin.
Urethanes are notorious for not sticking. Usually applied to a fresh epoxy primer, but not always. But the reasons for that may be more in careful prep than chemical tech.
(For example:
Non-clogging sandpaper containing STEARATES will leave a residue and screw up any surface epoxy and polyurethanes are applied to.
There are often warnings about wax in tack-cloths used to clean dust off surfaces about to be painted.
Solvents used to wipe clean a surface are often culprits in a coating's failure.
Silicone caulk contamination of gel coat.
Between the two packaged cans of an INTERLUX epoxy filler I bought once was a folded piece of paper that in the smallest print possible warned that the cured material had to be washed of BLUSH befor sanding!!!
No mention of this step on either can! If I had used the product (I took it back to Svendsen's) without washing off the water soluable oil it would have contaminated the surface, gotten into every minute scratch, when I sanded.)
Once one system's surface is neutral, arguably any paint, any enamel, any coating could then be used over it.
Maybe - to dull the surface - prep could be warm water, BonAmi, and a green nylon pad?
Imco it would be possible to use another system's CLEAR COAT, perhaps even the waterborne LPU, to get your 'higher level of gloss.'
They're all obscenely expensive coatings
and you know how big money likes to stick together!;)
My oh my oh my.
This was one beast of a job. Please remind me never to do it again. I never tracked the hours - I would just quantify them as a mind-numbingly large number.
Proud of the outcome, for sure. Feels a bit like the "lost summer" of 2011.
Mast stepping in the AM.
Quick notes: A couple items didn't make the must-do list such that we could get at least one sail in before Sadie starts school on Tuesday.
Such as:
1) skipped the rub rail. I ordered and have in my possession a nice Eagle Moulding vinyl backer for my stainless rub rail. With the time clock ticking, my choices were delay sailing to do the whole job right, just install the stainless and repatch reinstall both over the winter, or skip both now and make it a winter project. #3 wins. Will just have to be careful to keep her safe from damage.
2) the handrails will go back on top of the cabin. An easy job at the dock if/when I have time this fall. Trimming the new bungs to fit and therefore sealing the fore and aft holes on the railings would have, again, taken another step.... time...
3) I screwed up the traveller placement. Will detail later. I have a good idea for an easy and tasty fix though. Stay tuned.
4) the aft legs of the pulpit are misplaced and I have to figure out how to fix that screw up.
(For the most part, #3 and #4 are the only significant errors I've made.)
5) skipped reapplying VC17 - a two month season can do without, but I do miss that brand new copper bottom appearance.
I did a good job (B+, I'd say) bagging and protecting my reusable screws and bolts, etc. Some things just mysteriously disappeared. Lots of trips to the hardware store to buy stainless piecemeal. The cashier knows my name now....
Several weeks ago, Sadie says to me "Hey Dad - um, next Spring, how 'bout we have Lucky Dawg all ready to sail so we can sail in the summer!" Thanks for that little pointer! Duly noted.
Pictures below
_____________________
Attachment 7769Attachment 7768
_________________
p.s. I've tried to estimate what this crazy job https://picasaweb.google.com/1009889...858412/Deckjob# would have cost me to hire out. I've been saying an easy 10 grand.
Kyle - well done and thanks for sharing! I'm sure each sail this season will be all the sweeter with all that work behind you.
Sometimes it seems like we have to earn the privilege to sail these boats...
Kyle,
Here's to 'sailing the summers' ahead!
Keep posting, PLEASE!
Rig up, rail down, and all around the pond.
Thanks for sharing.:cool:
My only real screw up. I obviously placed this traveler track in the wrong place. In my frenzy to get launched on Friday, I just wasn't thinking about the cam cleats that sit in front here. I'll use 1/2" or 3/8" mahogany that I will trim to 4'x4"(ish) to lay flat here - then I'll put the traveller and cleats atop it. I figure of all places to screw up, this is the most easily fixable.
Attachment 7780
AHHHHHHH!!!! A beautiful sail yesterday. Too windy for Amy (she tops out at about 8kts), but I had great crew nonetheless. Steady 16kts for a nice ride.
Attachment 7788
Attachment 7789
She looks great, Kyle! Lucky Dawg has one of, if not the, most beautiful cockpits I have ever seen. Not cluttered and apropriately adorned. As a matter of fact I would not think of 'the traveller incident of 2011' as a screw up. That additional strip of wood will serve two purposes. One as a mount for hardware but also as a fine dressing to the aft end of her cockpit.
No doubt they are the luckiest kids on the Lake. You're making significant memories together. Hats off to you, sir.
Hey Tony. Thanks. The ol' Commander cockpit is what drew me to the boat in the first place. Lucky Dawg's setup is really nice. There's the 45+ year old, meticulously constructed teak grate, and the clean white cushions the PO had made... but the 1/4 x 2" strips of mahogany that dress up the seats, I think, are the pièce de résistance. They're just screwed into the fore and aft 3rd's of the bench. For the center section, they're bolted through with short bolts that have to be ground down along with the nuts to a small degree to pass smoothly over the lip of the locker. Just a little detail, but they really pop.
Re my screw up, I agree. The traveller bling came to me fairly quickly as I realized my error - "Oh crap!!... Well, just add a strip of mahogany there and we're all good." Wouldn't have been a solution anywhere else on the boat, but an easy fix there. Someone here, can't remember who, put a similar accent there. It was bowed from the underside, so flat on top. I just plan to slightly bend the board to follow the line from one side to the other. It's about a 3/4" (?) arc over that 4' section.
Anyone know who sells honduran mahogany piecemeal? I still want to make the chain locker cover (below) I apologize that I can't remember whose handiwork that is, but I have it saved on my computer because it rocks. With that and a couple other projects, I could probably put a half a sheet of 1/2" to good use, but don't know what I would do with the other half... Maybe I should buy a full sheet of 1/4" and laminate...
And, yes Tony, I am blessed with two kids who love to sail. Totally aware that this could be time limited. Yesterday, just checking the enjoyment-barometer with Sadie and her friend - 'Y'all still good? How much longer do you want to sail?" Sadie - "A little longer - maybe two hours or so, OK?"
Attachment 7787
p.s. I played around in Photoshop with the Commander logo/ensignia here rather than this design, but I couldn't produce anything that I liked better than this little anchor. Not sure if the raised panel is constructed like the outboard cover to lift on and off similarly to facilitate access? If you recall whose boat this comes from, please advise.
Yippie!!!
Back in the water!
Let's hope the fall sailing is as fantastic as last year so you can cram a summers worth of sailing in.
The boat looks fantastic.
Congratulations on muscling through a really big job with such great results.
Mike
Kyle
Lucky Dawg really is a lucky Dawg to have an owner like you. She really is looking great. We are all looking forward to some sailing shots of you enjoying the fruits of your labor.
Kyle one of the things I really like about your commander is the wood grate in the cockpit floor. I think Destiny would benefit from one like it. Would you mind taking some close up pictures of it so I can see how it was constructed especially at the forward end (I looked through all your pictures and have a good idea about how it was done but did not see any of the forward end) where the cockpit dranes are under it?
Gee Jerry... if your gearing up... why make just one?
(hint, hint)
Mike
I'm not gearing up right now I have too many "need to" things to do to get Destiny back in the water before I start doing the "want to" things but when I do I might be convinced to do a small production run. I'll let you know when I do gear up.
Hey Jerry, Thanks. Definitely enjoying the "fruits." And no problemo for some pix of the grate. I picked up my trailer today to deliver to the welder. It is a little wobbly and I want to reinforce the bow supports. ...Anyway, while up there, I took a bunch of pictures. They're posted here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...3676#post23676
Had planned to meet up with my stinkboater friends yesterday (including my family) - they were to speed several boats up from Grand Haven to Muskegon Lake (13 miles or so up Lake Michigan) for a lakeside lunch at a fun restaurant called Docker's. Very unexpectedly, an ominous fog bank rolled in. Thick as pea soup and not remotely safe to navigate - so I was on my own. It never ate up Muskegon Lake where the sun was blazing, but you can see its creepy fingers peeking over the dunes that separate Muskegon Lake from Lake Michigan.
6 or 8 kts, so I flew my big light reacher. 80 degrees and beautiful sunshine. Supposed to be 30 degrees cooler next weekend.
Couple notes: I don't miss the lifelines or pushpit one bit. My drainage hole expansion in the Laz did not one thing to facilitate drainage - except that it looks a little cleaner. Same water volume, but it probably just enters and exits more freely. (Edit - this fix for this is post 17 in the "Balance advice and input" thread)
Attachment 7825
Attachment 7827 Attachment 7824 Attachment 7826
Now see that's what I'm talking about!!!! Looks like it was a great day to be on the water.
That fog is no fun to sail in. And when it pops up in the middle of the day it is even more surprising. A couple of years ago I Took my niece for a sail out to Anclote key from Tarpon Springs. We got out to the island and beached the boat so my wife and my niece could walk up to the lighthouse and back. In the time it took them to do that we had very heavy fog roll in and we had to sail back in the stuff. I sure was glad I had a GPS that day.
I appreciate you posting the pics, I look forward to them.
pix are posted in the link per above. I've sailed from somewhere near Anclote Village Marina to Anclote Key a number of times. (I've mentioned before that my mom used to live in Palm Harbor) Can't find the exact place on GoogleEarth, but it is a little Mom and Pop marina in that vicinity. My stepfather is a marine biologist and tromping around in the mud within the key (just south of the white beaches in center of this image) with someone who knows what's-what is edifying. One trip, headed out, we came upon literally hundreds of dolphins. It was some kind of sit-in, I think. You don't get that in the Great Lakes. No sharks, either, but... Some wildlife and some destination keys would be a fun addition.
Attachment 7828
I will download the full size version when I get a couple of minutes to spare.
Can you tell me how thick the slats and the pieces arounf the perimeter are? Sorry to be such a bother but I really like that grate and would like to duplicate it.
The Google Earth picture you showed was the north end of Anclote key. The second picture shows the South end where we beached the boat and where the lighthouse is. The lighthouse is located at the circle and the arrow shows where we beached the boat that day.
The first picture is the lighthouse there on the key.
Max went for his first sail today. He was a natural. Loves to ride in the car and this was just an upgrade from that. Found a spot on port and stayed there for the afternoon. Seemed very content. Only trotted into the cabin when I was dropping the sails in a fair amount of wind at the end of the day. Too much clattering for his liking. Should have named him "Scuppers."
Attachment 7837 Attachment 7836 Attachment 7835 Attachment 7834
Those are another set of great photos, Kyle. Max looks like a young Bouvier Des Flanders...truely a Lucky Dawg.
Hey, my kids loved Scuppers! Max is the spitting image! Great shots!
"Born at sea in the tooth of a gale, the sailor was a dog. Scuppers was his name" Still have my copy from 1970 or so... (and Tony - Max is a Wheaton Terrier, actually) I got a new copy for my kids and the new edition is mysteriously missing 4 pages of the story. Doesn't really make sense without the deleted pages. Little Golden Books must be doing some cost-cutting.
By the way... Man, did I do a crappy job reinstalling my portlights. They leak like a sieve.
Attachment 7845
Kyle
I love the photo with your son and Max. Those two look like they will be long time friends. :-) Every boy should have a dog.
Sustained 30-50kt blow from the north hit Torresen's last week from its most unprotected side. We moved Lucky Dawg into the protected basin, but nontheless, the bucking motion snapped the port stern chock. That was the only damage.
Anyone have a spare??
Attachment 7946
Yikes! Glad that's all that happened! I'll check for mine when I get home - I may have already sent them out but I can't remember...
Thanks for looking Mike. Yeah - I thought it would have cracked the fiberglass sooner than the aluminum (?) chock.