OK, let me be more specific...
If you have recored a deck in your life, and that boat did not subsequently sink, I would like to know what products you used and if you were happy with how it was still doing X, Y and Z years later.
Mike, I know that you place the new core on a thickened epoxy layer on the lower skin. My suggestion about thinned epoxy was to coat the cut and shaped plywood for the core BEFORE placing it in the deck thereby sealing it so it wouldn't rot, and I won't have to do this again for another 42+ years. Has anyone ever heard of anyone doing this? Or anything LIKE it?
I agree that closed cell and its inherent rot-proof, inorganic nature make it a mighy fine core material, but it's cost prohibitive to me. Simple as that. And let's not forget that a properly executed and sealed balsa deck lasts a long, LONG time and costs far less than the exotics.
By way of explanation, before college I lived and cruised on a Paceship 26 for about five years making most of the mistakes that I now intend to avoid. I'm aiming for "seaworthy." Not perfect. Not restored. Not museum quality. There might be dings in the gelcoat. OK. The brightwork might be faded. Fine. There will also be completely new standing rigging with 1/4" - 316SS and Sta-Lok terminals, 200' of 1/4" chain, three slightly oversized anchors, all new electrical wiring and, so it appears, a new deck if I purchase #120.
Beyond a sound hull and deck and killer ground tackle, the rest is detail work, detail work for which I know it is almost impossible to specify costs. Still, I can easily figure that 1/4" wire is $1.45/ft, and Sta-lok terminals are $38.50 each. I need around 161' of the former, and I need 16 of the latter. A 22-lb Bruce anchor is $122.99. Chain is $1.47/ft. See? (BTW, these are all real prices that I've found on the web. If you need to know where I've found them, please ask!) I'm not looking to balance to the penny. I'd just like to be able to say that a new deck will be around X dollars. It CAN'T be that hard. Civil procedure was hard. Cognitive neuropsychology was hard. My job.... let's not go there. :)
OK enough rambling. :) But now you can see where I'm going with this. So I'm still begging for suggestions.
I'll post some more pics later tonight. I need to Photoshop them down, or Bill might come after me. :D
All the best!
J.
For your amusement: "Wooden boats regularly die early deaths of natural causes; fiberglass boats must be assassinated." - Don Casey
Closed Cell Core Material
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgnstrn
Mr. El B.,but...you asked about core material.
Here are some prices for 1/2" thick material (I think that is ~ the right size)
ATC Core-Cell, "A500 grade", Plain, no cross cuts: $167/(4'x8'sheet)
Baltek, "contourkore", "CK100" grade, $32.60/(2'x4'sheet)
ditto......ditto....."AL-600R" grade, $36.74/(2'x4'sheet)
Airex PVC closed cell foam, "contourable" $51.78/(24"x42"sheet)
ditto......ditto...."rigid" $115/(48"x58"sheet)
As boat stuff goes, those prices don't sound too expensive to me. Two 4x8 sheets at max needed to recore the deck and one 2x4 for part of the cabin trunk -- say $500 total?
From Our Guru, Tim Lackey...
Tim Lackey had this to say when I emailed him. It pretty much takes care of my question:
The sides of the cabin trunk are not truly hollow. What you have is a solid structural laminate, running from somewhere in the rounded curve at the top edge (where it transitions to the coachroof) down to the sidedeck level. There is an interior liner made of very thin and flimsy fiberglass that has no structural relevance at all; it is for appearance only. There is generally a variable amount of space between the two, which may lead to the impression that it is hollow. Generally, it's not necessary to do anything to the cabin sides, but if you have severe movment as a result of a horribly deteriorated coachroof, you may need to perform repairs.
The exact situation you have, coupled with your skills and what sort of access you can gain to the area from inside or out, will dictate your repair method. If you needed to repair the sides of the trunk, it would be easy, but you might have to compromise the interior liner to gain proper access. That's the problem with molded liners: they block access for the repairs that most boats eventually need. I think it would be too much work for dubious gain to try and open and then patch the liner, which is no great shakes to begin with, so if you did need to go this route, I'd suggest considering some other sort of interior covering that pleased your sense of aesthetics.
Recoring is messy and time-consuming, but is not technically difficult. Just remember that the whole point is to bond the new core WELL to both bottom and top skins (that is, no voids and firmly affixed), and to prevent the possibility of any water getting into the core again, even with a non-organic core material. Solid laminate in way of deck hardware and openings, and around all fastener locations is the best way to go. At a minimum, be sure to overbore and refill (with epoxy) boltholes when installing hardware. The hardest part of the job is creating the fair and smooth surface at the end that you need for a fine finish.
Good luck! It's a great learning process.
Tim
Glad it worked another distributor for epoxy
You can buy
by the gallons exact gelcoat and anti skids from spectre or spector products.
They are located in Florida and Washington state. They have anti skid patterns
for Pearson Boston Whaler with the correct color for gelcoat. They have a catalog. If you are looking for an anti skid pattern another place was treadmaster and they are based out of England they were in Good Old Boat
Their stuff is cool.
John :D
nix on solid laminate deck
Imco small areas like under stanchion bases that have gone bad would be great to cut open and filled with frp. Would be easier as the core transitions to solid laminate near the toe rail.
A whole deck repaired with a 1/2" thick buildup (approximate thickness of the balsa core) of frp would end up adding much too much weight to the boat. Replacing balsa with pvc foam is probably the way to go when recoring as it is arguably easier than building up layer after layer of fabric and plastic. Easier to sand and shape than the grinding on solid frp you'd probably end up doing. When recoring with foam you can use prefered epoxy rather than polyester which you may have to choose because of the many gallons you'd need.
338 had the core replaced with solid glass under the mast. But this area is only a couple square feet.
Composite decks are extremely strong and stiff for their weight, stronger and stiffer than solid, even more so in our case with the strong camber the Ariel foredeck has.
There isn't anything mysterious about using foam in doing a recore. What's mysterious is why it's so damn expensive. Less expensive endgrain balsa is still available.
Imco if balsa is protected (as it should have been by the manufacturer) it'll last forever. There are Ariels that after 40 years have not needed their decks repaired. Balsa is just fine for a whole deck recore that could last another 4 decades.
Sorry for not checking in
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbd
Since no one else has chirped in, I'm maybe good for some questions. Is there a contaminant that will make epoxy not stick? Like wax or silicone? What do you use when you create a mold to keep it ffrom sticking? Any chance some contaminants could have been introduced in either of your mixes that could keep the batch from adhering? (Where's Mike Goodwin when you need him?)
Been sick, recuring "jungle fever" from my days of 'wearing of the green' and we ain't talking Irish here , anyway fever is gone and I can stay awake for more than 2 hours now.
Yes, silicone and epoxy do not mix , also wax , and the epoxy itself can blush and cause it not to adhere. When making a mold, you use a mold release agent , which is a wax and/or a latex liquid release agent or parting agent .
Hint, don't wipe down with acetone, use pure white vinegar then denatured alcohol , I have seen acetone 'soften' resins . Or use Prepsol or a mix made for glass prepping . And use a hell of a lot of rags , if you see something on the rag , it is contaminated, CHANGE IT ! or you are just spreading it around .
I sure hope this is the last of the blasa left in this deck........
Having tackled the starboard side earlier this year, I went into the port side today.
It was not to have been too bad of a job, as most of the foredeck core had been replaced by the prior owner (Herb Tucker) and his dad about 5 years ago. Apparently they had found some good balsa along the plywood strip that runs down the center of the deck, but unfortunately it has since found water and now fails the old 'acoustic coin tap test'.
So I set the circular saw to 1/4" and ripped down the center of the deck, a couple inches on either side of the strip of core that sounded soft.
The bond on the plywood strip was good, but I was surprised... no amazed, to find that there was very little bond at all to the closed cell foam!
I could see the edges of the air bubble that had apparently formed when the old skins were refitted.
Both Tim, and Mike caution against allowing any bubbles to remain under the skins if they are re-used.... I experienced problems on the starboard side where the old skin had been reused and the seam had allowed a minor leak.
I did not re-use the old skins when I re-repaired the starboard side, and will by no means consider re-using them when I close the port side back in. The stress point created along the seam, the possibility of bubbles (voids), and the less reliable bond between the old skin (that once was lined with rotten balsa core) argue against re-using the old pieces in my mind. More then any theory, the main reason I will not re-use them is that I believe they have contributed to my having to re-visit this job that the prior owner had done before me.
I sure hope this is the last of the balsa left in this deck........ :o
also
Quote:
Ebb said;
Silicone spray must be illegal.
Amen....