Let's Talk Rudders

How many of you have had your Ariel rudders off of your boat?
I understand from the manual that the boat has to be lifted to remove the shaft and I'm wondering if anyone has just cut the shaft where it comes out of the tube and then made a completely new rudder and shaft?
My thoughts are to come up with new 1 inch naval bronze and run it from the tiller head all the way to the rudder shoe, solid with no prop apperature. The only real engineering to be done is a better method of attaching the wood to the shaft. That is what really worries me about my own in that you can't inspect the screws and lags that are through the shaft into the mahogany. Also just as soon as one drills a number of holes through the bronze shaft , you have introduced weak areas.
I'm also wondering about woods; I would think there would be a more suitable wood than mahogany; I'm going to research the water loving wood CYPRESS.
I will certainly appreciate any thoughts that any of you have. I'm certainly going to try to avoid any crane bills that I can.
Fair winds, Jim

I have had the rudder off the boat. My opinion is that it is easier to take it off the normal way, particularly if you are going to destroy the rudder anyway.

The only real problem is getting the screws out of the two pieces of the shaft- said differently, getting the nuts off the ends of the bolts.

But yes, the boat has to be pulled out of the water. I don't know how else you can do it. Just cutting the shaft, if I understand you right, will not remove the rudder. There is also a strap half way down.

As for wood, I used a single piece of mahogany. Like cypress, salt water does not rot it. It doesn't have the protection from fresh water, but heh, my original mahogany rudder lasted over 30 years, and this one should do better. I sealed it completely with wood sealer before mounting it. Then I put on an exterior water proof sealer primer, and finally anti-fouling.

So far it is working like a champ.

First of all, whatza matter with the rudder?

Original rudders holding together 40 years, you could say that it is a pretty good and simple design!

Worked hard, needs replacing, happens to hard working stuff.

I heard, on good authority, that the original rudder shafts are manganese bronze. (I would guess IMCO that the original bolts that clamp the mahogany together and screws were not m. brnz but most likely silicone brnz. This might be responsible for some of the corrosion problems the Manual talks about.

My solution was: well, if the most abundant bronze in the marketplace is the silicone variety, make the whole rudder out of it. I also didn't like the idea of holes thru the shaft for the bolts. BUT, I haven't heard here that any Ariel rudder has a problem with bending or strengh at those two or three spots.

Is that correct. Captains?

So anyway ole Ebb he wanted to impruve and invent. So he bought this strap and shaft for an unbelievable amount of blood and proceeded to MIG a rudder together. S brnz wire is also readily available. You'ld have to be a certifiable engineering genius to get a new idea rudder right the first time. Yes, Ebb has a 'take apart' scarfjointed rudder, not yet completed, being filled with divinylcell, epoxy and glass. Cutting, shaping, fitting is so finicky that it isn't fun. And if you make a mistake it's a big mistake because you didn't make the mistake on a previous model. It requires small bolts that will live under water to hold it together. (When I mentioned what materials I was using to the Blizzard of Bristol, he said, rattling off the percentages of alloys, that silicone bronze was too soft for shafting.)

And I still will never know how long it'll hold up. One of my future projects is to make a standard rudder. If this Constellation style rudder works pretty good, I'll remake it in m brnz shaft and m brnz rod and old growth teak. Otherwise, it's right back to the ear shaped original.

If you have some ideas lets kick them around. B.B., I believe, has the manganese shafting. Whether it's cut and turned below and milled for a keyway, I don't know.

The other way to get the rudder out
is to dig a hole.....................................ebb, rear certifiable nut

When I removed mine (year 1999 or thereabouts), I looked for pinkish spots, which, as I recall, indicates corrosion. Both shaft pieces were fine - but my boat is a fresh water boat.

The rudder/shaft is the potentially the most hazardous piece of gear on the Ariel if it fails. If it fails in a blow, who knows what happens. I have had the straps on the tiller break, but have seen no problem with the rudder, the posts or the bolts.

My original rudder was made of three vertical pieces of mahogany, with three (as I recall) rods running through them. Bill claims that Pearson never put rods in their rudder, but I respectfullly disagree because I can't imagine the previous owner doing that sort of work.

I now have a mahogany rudder with the original shafts. The rudder is out of a single piece of mahogany with the three shafts run through it, front to back.

With regard to the precision nature of building a new rudder, I was very impressed with how well my craftsmen built the new one. It fit like a glove, without ANY rework and only cost $750. What a bargain!

VC Theis suh, Have you been going to port lately?
IMCO a single board has to warp.

The original 3 piece was to minimise warp and make it easy to assemble. I wonder what they were glued with or even if they were?

For a remake:
I would cut all the blade pieces from the same timber (whatever doesn't mind too much living under water, why not cypress) into 3" wide strips and face reverse every other one. It would be easy to layout the bolt or rod holes and drill them that way to book them together.

I would use resorcinal glue in a controled environment on a dead flat layup table and clamp the pieces with pipe clamps to the shaft. Then very carefully shape to keep the rods in the center at the outer edge watching for the nuts with ground-down elongated washers. Then glue on a trailing edge piece with no fastenings for final shaping.

Mahogany likes glue. Teak and resorcinol, never tried it - but careful epoxy, not much pressure, would stick it, bet cypress glues well, but moves a lot on outdoor furniture seasonally (in and out of the water) Best choice IMCO is good ole west indian mahogany.

ebb and Theis,

Really appreciate your time and many good thoughts and ideas!
My #391 is also a lifetime fresh water boat that has been moored not slipped, corrosion of the shaft doesn't worry me as much as the possible failure of bolts and screws. My rudder is also a 3 piece with very definite notch areas where I presume the drift pins are located. It is true in shape and flatness; slight bit of dry rot one corner of the prop apperature. Definitely fixable on boat.
I just feel that I should lay in the supplies and fabricate a new rudder for the future, just in case, especially if we take her to the great lakes in a couple of years. To my way of thinking I believe the single shaft top to bottom is the way to go. Keyway at top and turning at bottom no problem, just the woodwork and attachment.
I think the idea of digging a hole is doable, since she spends her winters on trailer, I was thinking of cutting the shaft just for the revoval phase on land not water. I have the Pearson full size drawings and will share if anyone needs them.
What is your source of mang. bronze fittings? Think I'll probably stick with W.I. Mahogany.
This isn't a rush thing at this point but I do want to really do my homework. I really appreciate everyones help and consideration. More to come on this subject and I will post some photos if I can figue out how to do it! Jim

Ebb

No, the rudder is very straight - and it has now had three seasons. IMCO (I have to remember that one) as to why it hasn't warped is because a) there are those huge bolts that you couldn't bend if your life depended on it, and b) the drift pins that are inserted seemed to have similar characteristics. I glued the pins in as well with epoxy. It could also be that the rudder is very well sealed with clear wood sealer so that it might not soak up water. But regardless, it hasn't warped (fortunately - otherwise I would have a $750 piece of furniture). And I don't have the glue problem. The old rudder separated at the glued seams, then appeared to rot where there was a seam.

Jim:

You don't have to worry about those bolts not holding. You could lift several Ariels with one of those puppies. They are tough and don't bend IMCO.

As for a single shaft, I would caution against that. I think Carl had it designed right. The rudder shaft that connects to the tiller has a bend in it in the upper part of the rudder. This bend is what gives the torque needed to turn the rudder. The stress for turning is not on principally on the bolts but on the bent shaft.

The lower half of the rudder shaft (which is not connected to the upper half) only serves to hold the rudder on. If you had a straight through rudder shaft, the torque on the bolts holding the shaft to the rudder would be increased immeasurably.

If the notches are in the outer edge of the rudder, you are right, that is where the drift pins are located. However, if the "notches" are on one side of the rudder surface, that is where the nuts and washers are that at the end of the bolts holding the rudder on.

Incidentally, the upper most "bolt" through the shaft is in fact a screw. The others are bolts. You may already be aware of this. I wasn't until after I spent some time trying to locate the end of the bolt that turned out to be a screw.

To take the rudder off, while the boat is on stands, isn't that
tricky. You take off the strap that holds the rudder down, remove the tiller head
and lift the rudder out of the shoe. If you can dig a narrow trench the rudder shaft
will just drop out of the tube. If you can't raise the rudder out of the shoe, shave
a little off the top untill you can. If your on really low blocks and can't dig, focus
on taking out the three screws in the top shaft. The manual shows where to look
for the nuts and you can try to unscrew them, ( I did,) or cut them out and bang the
screws out to where you can grab them with a vicegrips or something. A way of holding the
rudder hard over is helpful in this operation.

As for making an entirely new rudder I wasn't comfortable with my own ability to fasten
the planks, on edge with the long clinch pins, and mainly drilling the long holes. I realized
that the forty year old rudder was a huge success but I was looking for something that
I could build with familiar techniques and yeild a smoother, more low maintenance form.

Basically, I took the old rudder, traced it and cut it out of two pieces of 3/8" mahoghany plywood. These were laminated
and bonded together. On the front or shaft end of the rudder I bonded,with layers of ten oz. cloth
between each layer, two roughly 14" wide strips that completed the thickness of the front
end of the rudder. I left the middle seam unbonded so that after I routed the shaft profile
in, with a 1" core box bit, locate the shaft holes and rout them in with a 3/8" round veining
bit. Makeing half a hole on each of the inner sides. Once done I bonded the two halves together,
and cut he nut holes and bedded the shafts in with epoxy. To complete the sides of the
rudder where the 4x plywood stopped and the two larger inner pieces remained, I bonded
Baltec 3/8" balsa to complete the thickness overall. The balsa is great because you can really
shape it. The rudder is then covered in multiple layers of cloth and epoxy. Ifurther bedded
the lower shaft in with 5200 and with the upper shaft unattached installed it on the boat./
After the rudder is bolted on, Propoxy can be shaped into nice washer seats, I filled
the nut holes with urethane foam, cupped them, and glassed them over. Barrier coat, then paint

My laminated rudder has been in service for 6 years and not given any sign of trouble. It is
strong, light and smooth but its hard to believe it could last 40 years as did the original.
Cheers, B.
Commander#215

Theis,

Excellent point made on the issue of two part shaft or one single shaft; You are correct that the upper bent shaft certainly produces an extremely strong lever or eccentric that takes a certain amount of strain off of the rudder body. Carl did know what he was doing and that is exactly why we can still sail these beautiful little boats. I feel so fortunate to own one and I do experience this feeling everytime I sail her. Most all of my on the hard work is finished and we will re-launch this Saturday. Carl Alberg personally wrote me in a letter : "enjoy your Ariel for a lifetime". He was so correct! Just like Pearson's slogan: "Pearson Yachts.... a lifetime of pleasure". It is easy for me to feel pleasure even if it is just working on them! We sail around 700 n. miles a year which I believe isn't too shabby. I really had to laugh to myself recently when a North Sails rep. told me , for what reason I don't know, " well you know you don't have a big boat". This guy doesn't have a clue what sailing is really about! He is probably just a deck monkey on one of the Mac boats. I have sailed 30's, 33's, 38's, and a 40 on Lakes Michigan, Huron, Superior, and Erie and you know what , my wife and I normally can't wait to get back aboard our Ariel to really feel the sailing. I don't experience the exhiliaration (sp) on the big boats. Sorry about the rambling.
Thanks, Jim ( I almost forgot to ask, did the Commanders also have a two part shaft?)

Are all factory rudders made exactly the same - whether for inboard or outboard Ariels? Does anybody know????



Because you need to have that upper bend with the shaft to make room for the propeller aperture. So, IMCO, the lever arm is fortuitous - besides good engineering.

An unbent rudder shaft for the Ariel outboard makes a very easy rudder to make. And since it doesn't depend on intervening wood (shaftus interutptus,) argueably a stronger one.

Brendan's WOA (work of art) notwithstanding. If an autopsy is ever performed on that rudder it would be interesting to see what happened to the various layers of glueup, plywood, and the balsa.

Yes, all the rudders were the same in the Ariel and probably the Commander. On the ob models, the cutout for the prop was filled with a seperate piece of mahogany.

A few years ago Adele M (#199) also suffered from the soggy bottom rudder disease. Prior owners had fiberglassed the original rudder to extend it's life, but the sheathing just covered up the rot and added no strength. So I removed the whole magilla over the winter,(dug the slit trench) and built a line-for-line duplicate from full 1" mahogany. Reused the shaft halves, (shaftus interuptus? Oy) with new bolts, lag screw and pins. Yes, the original had 3 or 4 looks like copper pins driven in on converging angles with wooden plugs at the ends. The old ones were pinkish and eroded. I edge drilled the bolt and pin bores with electrician's speedbore bits with the unfaired planks clamped to a very flat bench.

When assembling, I bedded everything in polysulfide, including a thin schmere on the edge joints of the boards, and filled the nut cutouts with the same, figuring the wood was going to shrink/swell and needed room to work. I too simply sealed the raw faired wood with marine sealer and some anti fouling. So far so good, it's still tight, solid and happy.

Brendan Watson,
Thanks Brendan for the great capsule of your rudder work of art. I'm certainly going to archive your step by step instructions for the future.
Jim