Paint it and sail it / Sani-Tred

[ebb]

www.sanitred.com

ebb has not used this product nor do I advocate its use. This is information and for entertainment only. Having seen one Ariel here in horrible trouible, and if I hadn't been a woodworker 1/2 of my life, I might think I could get it to float with a brush and a roller. I'm almost certain that I will use a rubber product like this one for 338's deck, anchor locker, battery box, motor well, and bilge. To describe it, this stuff is more like a hypalon (pliable) than a Rino spray-on truck bed liner material (hard). One part, low VOC urethane.

From the literature: Sani-tred is permanent, never has to be redone, and easy to repair as new molecularly bonds to old. It compleatly seals and smothers corrosion, elimanates all furture oxidation. Coating remains flexible and watertight at extreme temperatures above and below the waterline. Yes you can cover rust with it and it will never bubble up under the coating!

Some guys literally paint the whole boat. Guys what don't have yachts. Saying on the boatdesign.net channel that too smooth hulls stick to the water, bumps breaks the suction, boat goes faster. No more bottom fairing for me!

Direct quote: "Sani-tred is the only waterproofing system that can repair and seal any salt or fresh water ship, work, or pleasure boat, deck, bilge area, vertical or inverted marine structure premanently, no matter how damaged or deteriorated. Sani-tred products have saved many wooden, fiberglass, and steel marine structural components that have been determined to be unrepairable with all other known marine products. If you feel your vessel is beyond hope, call or e-mail and we will provide specialized info to solve virtually any waterproofing or repair problem."
Sheeeesh! Git-Rot can't match that!

Certainly three of the most extrordinary sentences I've run into this century.

Enjoy.
Get your 'salt or fresh water work' a new rubber skin.
And never, never, never, never give in! Never. HNY

[ray b]

rust is ALIVE it is caused by micro bactirea
if you donot remove all the rust scale it will quickly return

[ebb]

waitaminut ray,
you read what they said?
"Smothers rust, molecularly bonds, never lets go."
Just knock the scale off. Roll it on.
That's what they say.
It'll be okay forever. They say.

[Trent]

I was skeptical at first but after seeing what that stuff can do I am now a firm believer.
An associate of mine owns a gravel company. Inside of some of his large equipment stones fall and batter the steel. He continually replaces solid rubber mats which are glued to the steel to take this abuse. Mats don’t work. I saw Sani-Tred products online and showed it to him. He ripped off the mats and applied Sani-Tred in its stead. He annually spent like $30,000.00 to upkeep the mats. He’s now going on 2 years without any damage and the Sani-Tred is holding up fine.

Now that durability is obviously not an issue, I was quick to coat half of a steel plate with 2 coats of PermaFlex and I placed it in a bucket of water and water softener salt. This water can’t get any saltier :) The coating is not peeling and I can’t get it off. No rust is showing through but the other half of the plate is literally dissolving (not coated). It’s been more than a few months since I performed this test.

Sure it’s always best to sand blast steel before coating it (it only makes sense), but Sani-Tred products do firmly adhere to a rusty surface as they describe.

[Trent]

My experiences with polyureas have been a negative one. Polyureas do not permanently adhere to anything. Polyureas do not bond old-to-new. They are all plural component (2-part) and their ratio is absolutely critical. They cure so quick they do not have time to penetrate. They can be applied vertically or inverted due to quick cure and higher viscosity; for these reasons polyureas can’t penetrate and lock to the substrate – they just “stick” sort of. It’s not a do-it-yourself type of product either.

For a pick up truck bed liner it’s hard to beat, you drop off your truck and pick it up a few hours later with a bed liner. That is precisely what made them popular. Since SUVs have become more popular the uses for polyureas had to expand to survive. I’ve personally witness polyureas bubble up in pools, ponds, floors, and even in bed liners. Polyureas have their nitch they are not the “cure all” that you hear about.

[Bill]

OK Ebb, now you've done it. :eek: You've got "Randy" at Sani-Tred Inc. posting the company's promotional material under the "Trent" handle. :mad: If you want to discuss this miracle product further, and report back, his E-mail address is "randy@sanitred.com." ;) Maybe he has some scientific tests to back up the claims. :confused:

[ebb]

As I posted, I'm not a proponent of this stuff. And it doesn't seem like anybody is interested around here, really, in the differences between these coatings. That's too bad. It would be great to penetrate the HYPE from the consumer point of view.

What 'Trent' (who's Randy?) is refering to is evidently a reference in part to the bickering going on in the industry. Take a look if you want at
http://www.futuracoatings.com/articles/polyurea.html

This recent post seems to be a response to a year old post. Why not delete this whole thread if it appears to be flogging a product. I am only interested in third party responses to this coating - ANY coating. Boat people who have used it and want to comment on its durability, whatever.

I thought back then it might be of interest to those of us with balsacore decks. It struck me that this product is like a liquid paint-on 5200. Finding good products from good sources seems like good chat to me.

Maybe if sanitred has attempted to plant a con in our midst, then we all might suspect the product of subterfuge as well. Personally have a real problem with sleeze & deception. It would have been so much better if this guy had been upfront, like that Aussie with the series drogue!:p

[Mike Goodwin]

Robert LeMasters wife sells a coating like that , she is with SeaGuard division of Sherwin Williams . I can;t remember the name of the stuff , but what I saw was promising .

[ebb]

Howz goin Mike,
If Robert responds I'd like to ask:

If exterior polysulfide caulking outlasts polyuethane by at least 2 times - maybe like 20 years vs 10, so they say - then how long should I expect a urethane rubber coating to last on the deck? Will it crack and peel in the tropics in 3 or 5?
I'd guess there are 'UV inhibitors' in the paint and such like, but it is a fairly thin covering.
Why isn't there a miracle polysulfide rollon hide??

I'd be inclined toward Sherman Williams' Marine products because of their hibuild epoxy undercoat (Pro-line) I'm using. It seems not to be in the retail market, but available thru chandleries to the pros. Turns out it is a do everything undercoater, sealer, barrier coater, roll or spray, packaged in half full cans. Does have solvents, probably the usual rotten bad industry favorites, but imco not excessive, mean to get that charcoal filter mask.
Heard they want to break into the LPU market. Maybe they already have.

[Robert Lemasters]

Let me check with "She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed", but I believe the product is called TUFF-FLEX. This product is a water catalized rubber- like product, clear in color or pigmented that is used where there is heavy wear and tear such as the decks of Navy Seal boats and even the floors of elephant cages. It comes in a can, is mixed with water, non skid or anything such as ground rubber whatever you want for texture can be added and is poured, trowed onto the surface. I plan on covering the cockpit deck, fore and side decks, the surface under the bunks and even insulating the hull and cabin with this material. You can use just about any paint to cover it. It is also water proof, will fill any cracks and can be applied in whatever thickness you want. I am sure that it will make an excellant nonskid deck and is vey easy to apply, can be done in stages. I will get back to you all with specks or a data sheet if you all want. Oh I have a small sample can that I plan on using on the wood surface under the bunks, will photograph and post when it warms up around here. By the way this product can be used on just about any material-wood, metal, plastic, fibeterglass, glass and etc.

[ebb]

Non-toxic is where it's at, Rumpole.
Did my version of research awhile back and convinced self that the deck and cabin top should be rubbered. Managed to have an exchange with Sanitred (but did not buy the stuff because it has a shelf life of a year or so) about the deck product. What concerned me was how smoothly the ungranulated first coats would go on because I wanted to take it up the toerail and paint other verticals like the OB well. An appearance issue. Was assured it was an enamel-like look where the granular coats were not applied.

I think the granules are premixed into the Sanitred topcoats. If they are similar weight the grans will stay in suspension, can't remember now if this was the case with this stuff, but it would make for a more professional look if the grans are evenly distributed in the matrix. My concern here was appearance (that the finish not look like granola) and what material the lumps are. Believe it is also is rubber and therefor not harsh on the skin. Also wanted something flexible under foot rather than hard. S. described their product as that.

Only Practical Sailor has used an angle test for antiskid coatings. It is a good idea - some antiskid is good at 22 degrees but lets go at 45. P.S. stayed in the box and only tested what west maroon has on their shelves. My assumption is that a 'flexible' coating and granule will hold better. Don't know that S had any incline tests, but they have/had guvmint contracts so you got to assume expensive tedious tests were performed.

Another thing to consider is the application of the product. Temperature, humidity, pot life, recoat time in terms of bonding and taping. IE can a normal human do it when he has the time. Like continue next weekend (or next Spring!) I think I also asked how easy it was to put on another coat later. much later, no problema.

Sample squares of colors and surface are good to check out too.
I'm interested, just maybe others are too, in getting a sample.

Wish they'd revive the Rumpole series. One of the great character names of all time must be
Fiona Always.
Be a great name for a sailboat. :cool:

[Robert Lemasters]

ebb, I will forward all of your concerns to my good wife Pat. There were some sample squares around here somewhere, I'll see If I can find them, and send you a sample plus post photographs of the Tuff-Flex sample squares on this site soon as I can. Yeh, I like British comedy.Have you seen "Last of the Summer Wine"? The older episodes are great.

[Mike Goodwin]

Here is the link to info on Tufflex;

http://www.flexdeck.com/

[ebb]

Thanks Mike,
Wouldn't know the product as a Sherwin Williams. They call themselves Daniello Corp. Wouldn't mind talking here about this and other like products as there is little about rubber deck coatings available, except from the producers.

As with the Sanitred product, this a threestep application process, two coats of water activated base (the Tuff), white rubber granules, and two coats of color which uses solvents. As I understand it, that would net out about a 1/16" in films (not including the granules.) If this is so I would think it an acceptable deck in terms of looks and weight for an A/C. There is nothing like seeing a deck first hand.

My take on a rubber coating would be to completely cover all deck surface with the coating as a positive sealer and preserver of the balsa core. Not the cabin sides.

Working time is extremely important, more is better.

The problem is using an unknown system for the first time. maybe the only time for most. For instance, the first coat has a 15 min pot life! They show pails dumping puddles on to a deck and the stuff spread with trowels! Mixing, spreading evenly all is in 15 MINUTES?? :eek: No way! Water is the catalyst, precisely measured, there is NO thinner. Can it be rolled on eg? Has a 4 to 6 hour set up time, and I forget what the recoat window is, 48 hrs?

The deck would need a second coat of base put on after you've done the fancy taping patterns - then the granules broadcast onto it for antiskid just as it begins to set up.

The top coats come next within a prescribed window. They cover, smooth, and amalgamate the deck. Whether one coat or three is correct you'd need advice. But the thing would be that all the materials must be at hand. No going to the store. All steps would be planned, time dedicated, even help arranged, and hopefully the material would act as you've interpreted the specs.

Website doesn't look like it's setup for the personal consumer. Sure would like at least to see a video of the process. Anything would do, but a boatdeck would be best. Imco the white rubber granules are important. Some deck systems use recycled rubber (black?) Better that any wear would show white which would no doubt be close to the lite grey or tan you'd use for the colorcoat. Comments? Pro and Con?

[Mike Goodwin]

Ebb,
The sample I have measures a full 1/8", 3/32 " is the base and 1/32" is the topcoat .

[ebb]

That, of course, would be rediculous. Even restricted to deck mats. You'd trip over them. Read this about TreadMaster, the glue on mats, the complaints were about the elevation change of the mat on deck being dangerous and annoying.

That foto of yours there looks exactly like an antiskid I did once with gluvit and walnut shell, Aggresive as a pit bull. I think the finished system can't be any more than 1/16" for looks and weight. Well. add a 32nd... 40 mils is about 1/25 of an inch.

The rubber granules are not as I imagine from their description on the website. The broadcasting is done by throwing the stuff up in the air so that it settles more evenly on the tacky base coat. Then they say that the surface should be completely covered with granule. Estimate that only one third will stick to the deck - the image is one of a layer of snow. 60% will get vacuumed up. What you have there doesn't look like the pieces are close enough. By description, that is.

Maybe this is why this product is aimed at ski resorts, fishing boats and elephant cages. Too thick for us. Only an impression, have to go back and check on it, but Sanitred is still as 'flexible' and not as thick.

After the TuffTred is cured, a 36grit beltsander can be used to knock the top off the granules. They say. Sanding rubber must be a trip. That would reduce some of the bulk. I would choose a finer screen granule and leave the peaks for more traction.

[Mike Goodwin]

The sample I posted is 2 1/4 x 2 3/4 " .

[ebb]

emailed them and they came right back.

Important tool,
they have a 'Rate of Use & Product Chart'(s)
Using the 100sq ft line across the chart:
first coat (Permaflex as base coat over prepared/sanded deck) .42 of gal.
THEN fill and fair holes/depressions, etc with thickened LRB granule coat material)
1.67 gals of LRB granule coat with
12 1/2 # granules between coats
,42 gal of Permaflex as a top coat (the remainder of the gallon)
1 gal Permaflex - $72.75
2 gal Granule coat $120
Granules $30
_______
$223 plus shipping?
and any Sanitred extras like maybe the UV inhibitor (I would have it in every coat by choice) or the LRB
thickner activator you use to make fillet material out of the inner coating material. This would be great for rounding seams/corners in lockers.

Cure thickness per coat is 5 to 7 mils.
40 mils is 1/25 of an inch half way between 1/32 and 1/16.
Seems thin doesn't it?
The granules will build up the final thickness to... ?

First thing you notice here is that all coats are non-toxic. No special primer is needed. Will cure at "45degrees below zero." 45 DEGREES BELOIW ZERO!!! (Tony, you reading this?) Has an adjustable pot life of 10mins to an hour or more. Bonds 'molecularly' to itself new or old and has 650% elongation, completely waterproof. Viscosity of the LRB (the mid layers) can be adjusted from a watery liquid to a thick putty.

Photos of the cured surface shows a closed mat like appearance, rather than Mike's moonscape closeup. Worth it to get a sample square. Sanitred's pastels are too dark for me. Instead of rubber you can use anything you want for antiskid. How about aluminum oxide? Thanks for the feed back.

If anybody is interested in discussing this off thread, please use the Private Message or email option. Thanks.

Is Tufflex consumer orientated?
IE email/phone help and tailored quantities (small)

[ebb]

Believe this is my last post on this subject.
My emails to S., have been answered by a form response. So obviously they don't have somebody sitting around chatting up potential smalltime customers. That's ok too.

Apropos Tufflex vs Santitred application:
When you go to the Sanitred site, use the Navigation Bar and go to
Applications. Then
Heavy duty floors. Then
Heavy Duty Floor Photos.

There is a simplified visual demo of what might occur on a boat deck. Looks simple enough, not much different than rolling on any paint. The stuff is rolled on, not troweled.

Using LRB (Liquid Rubber Base) to seal the inside of the boat and lockers seems like something to consider. I assume that the Permatex rubber is used for priming and finishing. LRB is just as runny befor you add the thickners. Somebody has to explain why you can't go the route with just the LRB out on the deck.

With the granules and its ability to cure at any thickness, they say, the product can be used for sound proofing. Might be worth while trying it inside the box covering the inboard engine.

Once you open the can you got to use it right away, because it's air/moisture cure. Out here in grapeland you can buy little pressurized cans of argon to replace the air in an opened bottle of expensive wine to keep it from oxidizing. Argon is an inert, heavier than air gas. Might try it on the liquid rubber, see if it will last longer?
Certainly should try argon in the varnish can to keep it from skinning over.

[Mike Goodwin]

You might want to know it's burn rate , etc. before you put it in the engine space

[ebb]

That's a good point, Mike.
I'm a little tired of reading all that stuff on that site. By myself.

I would swear that somewhere there I saw some statement about one or all of their products meeting some OSHA or military burn rate stamdard. Sorry so vague.

Don't know either the burn rate difference between plywood and rubber, or epoxy paint.
But just how does one protect the engine compartment ie the space under the cockpit? Good question.

Never thought about it with the OB well and gasoline on 338 - very much more of a concern than deisel under the cockpit - but obviously I should. Now that you point it out, a flame retardant coating should be that last two coats in those places.

Got any suggestions?

[Mike Goodwin]

Contact my buddy , Gary , at Sound-Down , gkissal@soundown.com . He is the expert and a good sailing buddy .
You also have to worry about how toxic are the fumes .

[ebb]

Mike,
gave it a try, the blue line,
and came up with a yahoo page that demand that I sign in.
I am totally irrational about yahoo, as you know from times past when you started the Ariel photo site for us. (Sorry if the terminology is wrong!)

I find the police state imposition of this provider diagreeable to say the least.
Registry and code word, joining the club, is out of the question. 'Yahoo' has as long as I can remember has been a derogatory term anyway. Ta hell with them. :D

[Mike Goodwin]

That shouldn't take you anywhere near a Yahoo site or page . when I click it , it opens an e-mail program.
Just enter it into your e-mail address line .

[ebb]

Mike,
from the beginning I've been impressed
how much better you click than I!