galley stoves

[ebb]

Have reread tpalmer's thread and Capt Dave's (and Maria's) cook top choices. Does anybody else have a good relationship with a kerosene stove? There seem to be other folks who are looping around to the less explosive fuel. Kero has other atvantages in that it can be used for lamps and exterior backups in case the battery dies.

I think I also have a problem making such a big deal out of the kitchen by using available s.s propane stoves/ovens that fit better on larger yachts. Rather refurbish with a more modest stove top.

Kerosene, correct me Please!, may be carried below deck. If in cans how do you vent? OK so you don't vent store boughts. Trying to contrast here with propane that on an Ariel MUST be on deck, probably on the cabin top in a locker. Did focus befor on 1 pound bottle installations - but that really can't be done on boxey gimbeled stoves so far as I know. Kerosene is looking better and better.

So I'm asking: are there successful gimbeled kero cook tops? Really nice ones? Have no use for an oven! Ones with rails and pot holders and self-pricking burners that you don't have to replace every week? Any SMOKELESS wonders? Any that you don't have to pre-ignite with alcohol? Probably have ten choices in Europe - any here?

So specific because I've axed the diesel auxillary possibility for a bloody outboard. Mostly because of the bad smell. So inviting kerosene aboard seems stupid. Guidance anyone?:confused:

[Bill]

How about one of these?

http://www.ec21.com/co/s/sundries/product.html?grp=4&cid=9

[Bill]

“Force 10 carries replacement burners and accessories for diesel/kerosene stoves. Custom models available. Call for details.”

23080 Hamilton Road
Richmond BC
Canada
V6V 1C9
Toll-free 1-800-663-8515
http://www.force10.com/cooktop.html

Of course, there's always: http://narang.com/miscellaneous_surgical_medical_products/kerosene-stove.html

See the side tank dougle burner model . .

[ebb]

hmmmm... that chinese baby... you get hungry half an hour after you use it? Not funny. Made polite inquiry for info.

Now those india ones....how about that brass four burner in one combo, looks like a temple! But then there is that 40 wick cooker! No kidding, I ran across someone lamenting that he had a stove once (or was that marymascara Dave?) who had used regular mop yarns for his wicks in a stove he once had. Didn't have to buy expensive wicks. Looks like it's all right here!

Once, long long ago on a cold winter morning, I remember frantically wiping black soot out of my baby girl's nostrils - from a karosene heater.

I know, when looking at the ads and product literature, I need to see the right words. And the words that are not there are just as important!

Isn't it the PRESSURE kerasene appliances that are the problem? Of course that's 95% of everything available. Those multiwick one-assumes-non pressure stoves look intriguing. Maybe a gimbal like the seaswing could be made. Will have nothing but time to make one when cruising. What are the wicks? How good are the stoves? They are made by a hospital supply company - how bout that! Are they rural? Do you have to take them outside when you light 'em up and to turn off?:D

[Greg]

Ebb,

Check these out...looks like quality stuff. One of the links tells how to make the wicks out of a mop head. Sounded like a lot of work to me so I kinda blew it off, but if you needed a hot meal, it wouldn't be too bad. These seem to be oriented towards "survivalist" types, but, I guess survival isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The url is:

http://www.endtimesreport.com/kerosene_cookers.html

[marymandara]

The pressurized stoves are nothing to fear as long as treated with respect and reasonably maintained...not unlike the rest of a sailing craft.

Remember, for years and years we were all a-feared of propane in the boat. Even the good 'ol CG insisted that pressurized alcohol was a wonderfully safe alternative. Then, we gotta pick our favorite likely culprit...

---The "boating Public" became infested with people who simply HAD to have all the discomforts of home...

or

---Kenyon-Homestrand was nearly gone broke because the stoves lasted forever.

or

The "boating public" became obsessed with "safety" to a pretty ridiculous extent because the activity itself has been marketed for sale to people with more money than good sense. This may ruffle feathers or sound snotty, and it isn't meant to...but sailing is in and of itself an inherently hazardous activity (so is taking a shower, driving a car, or crossing the street, for that matter). Anyone who is capable of undestanding and respecting the inherent hazards of the water and the forces of nature against rigging, blah blah blah...can probably survive a pressurized stove just fine. Good lord, to hear it told it is a miracle that anyone survived having a gasoline auxiliary! Sheesh. Sold a lot of diesels, though!

To my personal exposure the biggest hazard of a pressurized alcohol stove is that a guy might have to set sail beating a tide change or whatnot before he's had his coffee and pooch it good from lack of alertness...as it would take about 1/2 day or so to perk it (or just boil water) over the alcohol!

For some reason...this is a bit before the time when I really paid attention to "why"...years ago a lot of folks ditched the kero. in favor of the alky. Sheesh.

Well, here we are today all the same, and a nice byproduct of all of this is that there is a great selection of kerosene stoves and cookers at a used marine store near you for very little money. Bulkhead heaters, too.

One of the things that inclined my good wife to be an engineless sailor...is that she gets very nauseous very quickly belowdecks with any sort of petroleum stank going on. While I think it could get costly with a 2-burner cooker, things like old seaswings and bulkhead heaters run very economically, and burn lamp oil just dandy...which doesn't stink like kero/diesel and puts out very little soot.

The alcohol preheat on the burner is easily done in a safe and spill-less manner with a syringe and a little length of plastic tubing, BTW. I'm pretty good at the trick of sticking a match in a hole between two fingers and then yanking 'em back smartly, but since the advent of the aim-n-flame a guy need not even cultivate that skill.

And hey...those old Kero units just look "right" in a good old-school boat like we're fitting out anyway!


Best,
Dave (AKA Mrs. Mary, S/V MANDARA)

[ebb]

Capt Dave, no offense, play on words, tis but a bit o' spice. And I can rage on the unjust, not here. Thank you for your kero philosophy. It is right on! Shall renew the search. Thanks Capt Greg.

When I was a kid there were a couple old ladies up the street in a house my mother coveted. Have never forgotten how they smelled, when they opened the door - they always wore black - you were enveloped in a staggering plume, didn't know, being a kid, what it was. It was furnace oil and kerosene. Still with me, that.

I recall the smell of kerosene cookers mixed with spaghetti sauce and coffee. I've never seen a gimbaled lamp that didn't have soot on the chimney or the enamel overhead. I'm always hoping progress has been made - and burning fuel with an unvented open flame below decks become a science. Maybe not. And the odorless fuel can only be purchased at boutiques in Slobovia not the Bahamas.

Maybe with propane you are forced to be that much more exact in the installation. While you slide with the safer stuff. Trimming wicks and spilling kero don't sit too good in my belly either. BUT, the time has come for kerosene.

Maybe.

[ebb]

Capt Greg.
The stainless steel one looks substantial. And I can get it shipped to me in a plain box. Wonder if I can talk with these folks without shaving my head.

Is this the mop wick one - the s.s Premier? - 10 wicks, wow! - how does it work??? Actually. Mops burn clean, tho, right?

Off the grid, indeed. If armageddon comes will kerosene be delivered by our lady of fatima?

The end is nigh. Better buy a goodly supply of mop heads. Get my onboard composting head hooked up with a methane collector - connect it to the galley. But I'll need a gass cooker. Now THERE is true recycling!

Won't need no stinkin mops...:D

[ebb]

http://ic.net/~blues/galleys.htm

[ebb]

I've been catching up on good things sailors are saying about Origo. Might be a resurgence in popularity, some manufacturers are again supplying galleys with them. You find them on rent-a-boats.

I'm convinced there is no good place for propane tanks on 338. That decision took out the pricey swinging box stoves, even the two burner with infra-red broiler is nearly two feet wide. and you need the vented locker, the tubes and glands, solenoids, and maybe a sniffer in the bilge. It's just too dam finiky for me. Then I discovered the mini swing stoves don't hold a pressure cooker anymore, and where would I store a bunch of 1# propane cans anyway? And what about all those one way cans?

Origo has a compact one burner (1500) - about 9 X 11 X 10 1/2" with the gimbal. That means 1/2 of the Ariel interior doesn't have to be a kitchen statement. It is always pointed out that alcohol takes twice as long to boil water. The official Origo time is 6-8 minutes for a quart. A sailor pointed out that the flame footprint is larger and more even than propane and thought the heat output and boiling time was actually about the same.

A friend, a convert, dropped by the boat, says he's going to lend me one to try at home. So I'll check out the smell. I think my objections were from pressure pump stoves in the past.

Origos are expensive, you betcha, BUT, just think, you buy one and install it, and boil water. With propane you have a huge safety rigamarol and a very dangerous fuel. An underlaying level of paranoia I've decided not to deal with. Alcohol disapates, like beer it disappears. :p

[ebb]

Whenever you look into things a little things get dicey.

Ethynol is made from any number of edible produce:
potatoes, corn, beets, fruits, sugar cane, and grain. Edible in moderation for us humans.
Because it is, our governmint, the ATF, tells the makers they must poison the ethyl alcohol. They do this by adding methyl a. (wood alcohol.) 100% poisonous to humans and probably is the additive that makes stove fuel nauseating to some.

Denatured alcohol S-L-X (?) from the hardware is that edible alcohol made poisonous, otherwise it would come in glass and be called vodka and taxed to hell. On the gallon can I use for epoxy cleanup they say it's a "clean burning fuel for marine stoves." There is no MSDS on the can, so casual users like me don't know the composition of the solvent. I use a lot of it and breathe it all the time.

Some agency (the ATF?) governs what can be labeled 'denatured alcohol.' Kleen Strip SLX is reported by one guy to contain 80% methanol, 17% ethanol, 3% MEK. Not something you'ld want to use in an enclosed space, I think, for clean up or fuel. (I have not researched this myself. but I will now get the MSDS for the Kleen Strip I use. I know no one should burn methyl on a boat!)

Who can say what IS a stove fuel?

On the Parks site, they list ingredients as Ethyl a. 93 - 96%, methyl a. 4 - 6%, m. Isobutyl Ketone 1 - 2%, Ethyl Acetate 1 - 2%, Gasoline 1 - 2%.
Parks makes the product for many labels.

Trying to make the point here that maybe this fuel is not a good thing to burn below without direct ventilation. 'Safer' (NONE OF THIS SOUNDS SAFE) fuel might be gotten in the states, but what would you be getting in the Caribbean Mexico or the Pacific? :(

Any thoughts?

[marymandara]

Hmmm.

Ebb, I hate to be the harpy...but man, I have lived with and used alcohol stoves before...both pressurized and not...I mean, I GREW UP on boats with alky stoves...and I hate the things.

The stink of the alcohol in an enclosed space is enough to get a person hurling as bad as the stink of kero in my book. But...the real issue to me is how cold the stuff burns. I like coffee before noon if I start it at 0700, you know?

That much said, I was deperately trying to figure a good way to use the lazarette in the Triton as a propane locker and just flat couldn't. Too bad, as it worked so good in my friend's Vega, and it would have worked so good in the party-room-aft-cabin-suite lazarette of the Commander. Still, my immediate choices were:

---Big bottle in a deck box (nix, I like an uncluttered deck and do not like to carry weight up high)

---Smaller bottles in a pair secured inside the pushpit (nix, weight too far aft AND too high, and I know and respect Neptune's fist too well for that..."remember that passage where the big boarding wave took away the propane? Cold hash and DAK ham for 29 days, we finally slaughtered Dave and ate him raw to have hot food!")

---Costly and spookily cheap-looking storebought propane locker set into cockpit locker (nix, too small, drain is a problem waiting to happen as well as adding a hole in the boat and adding drag when the boat's heeled over. Cockpit lockers too small as it for a boat that has to carry somewhere between 9-12 bags in one and everything else in the other).

They all stank, Ebb.

I got Mary to capitulate on the 2-burner range and go with the single kero seaswing, but I worried about having no backup at all. You CAN bake some pretty good bread, even coffee cake, in the seaswing, it's just an odd shape. You cannot, however do lasagne..and that would be a real tragedy.

A friend of mine had a half-famous Renegade for a long time, oh-so-originally named RENEGADE by the original owners. Ever sail on a Renegade? Sheesh, with that balanced spade setup the rudder post goes down thru the cockpit over a foot ahead of the aft cockpit bulkhead. Jay used to have a ful-size steeel BBQ tank back in one corner. He sewed a double-walled sunbrella cover to go over it, which had some of that hi-tech heavy-duty foilized bublewrap insulation in between the layers. Sun could beat on it all day, never popped the overpressure valve.

Mary went off to the RV store and came back with a pair of aluminum tanks that are about 16" tall overall and just under 8" around. The actual poundage excapes me, but they are aparently about the same as carrying one BBQ tank or a little more. They happen to JUST fit in the aft cockpit corners of the Triton and still allow the tiller (I know, I had to dummy in a rudder post and fit the tiller to try!) to go pretty much hard over...as hard over as one practically takes it, at least. Still weight aft, but lower, and out of neptune's reach!

If you want real simple though, I still have to carry on for the kero seaswing. Since we last exchanged about soot I have looked critically in the overheads when visiting friends whose boats are so equipped and who live aboard, hence the thing is used twice daily. Very little sooting, if any. I think the key is that the stove needs to be running well and you need to keep the burner good and clean. Again, kero sets Maria off puking furiously if she gets a good whiff while underway, so I used lamp oil instead last the issue came up. Now...while a little bit costly, that iunscented lamp oil is very efficient and very very clean...plus the little optimus burner in the things really just sorta sips at the fuel. Hisssss.....(Whistling!!!)....Raspberry Tea, anyone?

Ahem. I should add, that Revere Ware make a really HD whistling teakettle, SS, in a small size to fit on a seaswing. MMMmmmm. Spiced Cider. Hot Chocolate. Dry heat in the boat from the stove. Tea.....

Dave

[ebb]

Dave,
you can see why Force 10 is on my enemy list. FOR ALL TIME. Considering what small boat sailors have to put up with just to get a quart of water boiling, it is unconsciousable that Force 10 reworked their seaswing one burner so that it no longer would fit the 8 inch pressure cooker. The Forespar gimbaled single burner accepts only Forespar specially made pots, so I don't even consider anything as stupid as that. The design of the Force 10 at least allowed you to find your own pots and pans. Everybody has they own favorite, dented, blackened, bent, perfect one! Force 10 could easily fix the grate and rail to get that 8" cooker back in the cooker again, I even told them how they could do it, easy.

Some cretin, who is not friendly to small boats at Force 10, came up with the new wire 'rose' pot holder, He cleverly made it part of the burner grate so that it robbed a whole inch of pot diameter. Now it is 7 inches, The really nice 8 inch pressure cooker I have won't fit. It is an insult. There has to be something wrong, maybe ethecally wrong, even sick, with a company that does that. Really, it is so illogical as to be sick. :o And I would like to be in an empty room with this person for just 5 minutes.

OK, that's propane, with the little screw-on non-recyclable propane camping bottles. Representing possibly the only alternative down scale, back up, galley available. Yes, I won't consider keroene at all. My past experiences rule that decision.

I am going to try the new wick powered Origos. The guy swore they had no smell. Except for the smell, if it proves to be there in the new Origos, it is the best fuel for a downsized galley in the Ariel. Clean burning, lighter than air, simple and safe. You, Dave, like to come up with flea market finds and antique deliverances. I will give a spanking new appliance the test. Man, sure hope I don't find some glaring stupidity in the Swede's cooker.

If bread can be made in a pressure cooker,
then lasagna HAS to be possible,
It's a slow heat baking process. Right?
Start layering on a moist bed of kelp
in a well oiled pressure pot. use
Italian mazarella and lotsa meat sauce on the bottom
Cook real slowwww for hours
then heat it fast befor you eat it.

[marymandara]

Well...I'd buy a lot of this crap brand new if anyone still made it!!!!

It would definitely be easier, and I would be spared the load on my limited remaining brain cells of things like the how-tos of overhauling Optimus stoves, Kerosene Shipmate heaters and Wilcox-Crittenden Navy Pumps. I wish, I wish...

Now...all I can wonder, is how much the optional Rube-Goldberg-mechanical-timer-start-the-stove-twenty-minutes-early part will cost you if you want the water to boil on the alky flame anytime soon. Maybe they burn hotter than the pressurized ones, but I don't remember that being too much the case from my relatively few times in using the non-pressurized version you are looking at. Good luck, and if all else fails we can sail close enough to throw you a thermos of hot tea, OK??? ;)

Dave


PS...I have one last idea, if you are real dedicated to making the propane-bottle stove work in a seaswing...

Buy an old S/Swing stove minus the optimus or with a trashed optimus, do a little cut-and-paste, and make the Coleman 1-burner screw-it-on-a-propane-bottle "stove" guts attach to the bottom of the old SeaSwing. This really should only mean hogging out a hole in the cast aluminum base bigger. Might give it a look...

[SailorLiz]

Well I don't want to get into a debate as to which stove is better, safer, cooks faster, etc. It all depends upon your perspective. As you all know a Commander does not have a galley, so we carry an Origo 3000. Yes, it does boil water in the coffee pot a little slower, than propane (we are also campers and use propane stoves) but then again, we are willing to wait for a good cup of perked coffee with a little baileys (if we are not sailing somewhere later) in the morning, while sitting in the cockpit and watching a beautiful sunrise and the wildlife around us. We cook on the Origo with a pressure cooker. Yes we have Lasagna, and lots of other good meals. You can make about anything in a pressure cooker. We also carry a charcoal mini weber grill. My husband will not grill on gas only charcoal. We have modified a fishing pole holder for mounting it on the boat. We also use it on shore or at marinas. The only time we do wish we had a galley down below is during inclimate weather. But, my husband is such a trooper, that he actually has cooked in full foul weather gear! :p He is the chef in our family and a darn good one. I have attached a couple of pics of him hard at work. Ahhh...great memories, good food and good drinks = wonderful cruises.

Fair Winds,

[epiphany]

RE: Alchohol stoves - from the backpacking world, there are a number of small, homemade, denatured-alchy burning stoves which have considerable output of heat, and use diminutive resources to attain it. The design principle is basically:

A burner/fuel reservoir, made of the bottom of two soft drink or beer cans, using a pair of scissors and a needle to fabricate the burner. The bottom 1/2 inch or so of both cans is cut off with scissors. In one of these pieces, a number of very small holes (30 or so) are made with the needle, spaced equidistant around the outer edge. A few more not-quite-as-small holes are made in the middle of the bowl-shape of the can bottom - these are for fuel filling. On this same can piece, the former can-wall is then snipped vertically in perhaps 6 evenly spaced places, to allow this piece to be slid into the other. Inserting this piece into the other completes construction.

This reservoir is filled with alchohol, and ignited. The resultant heat soon boils the alchy within, and, when the rush of escaping vapors from the boil ignite, the small pinholes act as jets. A most satisfactory blue flame is achieved within a minute or so of ignition.

There is no on/off switch with this type of stove, it is either stopped, or full-ahead. However, you can vary cook-times by increasing or decreasing the size of your burner/reservoir, and make a few of them, each of which can be used on a task-specific basis (for example, I have a "coffee" burner, and a seperate "food cooking" burner). They are so simple and quick to make, experimentation to achieve just the right amount of burn-time for a particular task is easy.

Use Google and do a search for "KISS Stove" - there is a page which has many different designs people have engineered, almost all with instructions and particulars about what the designer was trying to achieve with their variant.

If you found these burners to be efficient enough to be adopted, this would allow one to make their own perfectly sized gimbal, into which an appropriately sized burner was dropped when food or drink needed preparing.

[ebb]

Goodd mate there, Capt. Liz.
Hope it's all seasonal past tense!
Your stove's a good mate too.

Supposedly CO2 and H2O are produced by burning alcohol, people say it burns clean and colorless. We burn a number of fuels in the galleys of our little ships. We accept that because the stoves are in the stores and the fuels are on the shelves that it's taken care of for us - with the cautionarys
like for propane and venting for heaters thrown in. Often information is endlessly repeated from a nebulous source person to person, sometimes correct, but often wrong. It is impossible to find what else is produced by the fuels we use. I know, you're not supposed to ask. I've not read anything about propane, kerosene makes soot, charcoal can kill (carbon monoxide,) white gas, diesel. sterno, what else?

Electricity makes clean heat!

Unburned liquid fuels are BAD to inhale. The MSDS on alcohol sounds like what you might expect when handling nuclear waste. My solvent of choice (may also be used in marine stoves) Kleen Strip is made by the Star Bronze Co. Ingredients are: Ethyl a. - 42%, Ethyl Acetate - 3%, Methyl a, - 51%, Heptane - 1-3%.

Interesting, it says in the MSDS that the reason we are given this info is the Emergency Planning & Community Right To Know Act of 1986. Presumably it took an Act of Congress for them to come clean. 58% of the ingredients in the stuff I almost bathe in working with epoxy on the boat are toxic and poisonous! Right! it's also dangerous to cross the street.

What's that glow on the lasgna? I'll have another cup of hazzardous raspberry tea! If we were informed, it might even be bad to burn pure food alcohol! Methyl a. comes not only from wood, but out of the petro chemical industry, refining oil.

When they did forensics on the 5500 year old 'iceman' they found in the Alps, his lungs had arsenic (presumably from smelting copper) and other contaminates from wood fire. They lived clean in the days befor the industrial revolution.

Fair noodles, everybody :rolleyes:

[ebb]

Capt. Epiph,
Yeah, I noticed the mini war on the hiker's pages too - them who swear coke cans make better stoves than pepsi. You gotta love amer-can ingenuity!

Dave insists I look for an old sea swing at marine fleas. Why couldn't one of them be altered to take a soda can alky wick? It's the gimbaling what's needed. Then....
to find the time to fiddle.

[marymandara]

At that rate--

There was a less expensive version (not as nice, but I think the same size) that took a sterno can, too. They're probably nearly free at the SeaJunk store and so forth, and would take less adaptation.

SmokyStinkyDavid

[epiphany]

Senor Mister Capt Ebb -

I've been thinking on the gimballing, and my thoughts have swung this way and that.

First decision was what material to use. Wood? Easy, but I'd rather not rely on that material to contain and hold a small flaming object onboard my vessel. FRP/composites? Although materials would cost a bit more than wood, and a nicer-looking end product could result, alas, this material too would have a propensity towards fueling a fire of the non-cooking type, and is thus inappropriate. So we come to metal...

I have neither a welder, nor any experience welding. In fact, I have few tools at all which would be suitable for the working of hard metals, so that leaves me with one option as far as I can tell: Aluminum.

Now, I was gifted one of the little Forespar Mini-Galleys that uses a 1# propane tank, and it is a handy little devil for making coffee or a can of soup, but shrinks in fear when I raise my pressure cooker in it's general direction. It is constructed of nice stainless steel, but, after a couple of years usage, I can see where spot welds are beginning to corrode in places inaccessible within it's frame. Thus, I think it is not a tool I can or should rely upon for use over the span of many years from now.

Since, however, this was my example, I had been thinking along the preconcieved lines that the gimble needs be a rounded shape, to conform to the outer diameter of my pressure cooker. Considering the various materials and their limitations, though, eventually introduced me to wondering "Do I have to have a *round* gimbal?", and I've finally realized: Why, no, I dont.

A gimbal of a square shape could support a round pot placed within it as securely as a round gimbal.

So, my release from the preconception that my gimbal need be round, my limited tooling resources, and what aluminum stock I have seen locally have brought me to a point where I think I will be constructing a square-shaped gimbal, using aluminum angle iron (misnomer?) stock purchased from the local hardware supermart.

The rest of the project consists of figuring out: what to use and how to construct the rotating bearings for the gimbal, and how to engineer a fiddle within the frame.

The bearings I have not given a lot of thought to as yet.

The fiddle may wind up being as simple as an insert for the frame, constructed to fit a particular pot, just as the burner will be made to fit the heat requirements of a particular meal.

RE: Coke vs Pepsi cans - my original burner for hiking, constructed 4 years ago or so of beer cans (Natural Lite, IIRC - I could not find any raspberry tea cans at that time...), still works, although it is looking dog-eared. I think that the relevant quality of the original can is a point of debate that I'll let others discuss, decide, and divide.

One of my own experiments ("experiments" sounds so much better than "happy accidents") was when I spilled alchy onto the piece of aluminum foil upon which the burner sat. Figuring it would do no harm, I went ahead and ignited the lot.

The surprise was that this small amount of additional fuel about and on the burner caused the "pre-heat" time to be considerably shortened, and I had my blue jet flames in ~20 seconds, instead of the usual 45-60. Since then, I have always used this technique, and plan to incorporate a little splash cup into the gimbal on which the burner apparatus will sit, to allow these faster ignitions. As the boat will be carrying the alchy fuel, and not the sack upon my back, I believe that I can be a little more liberal in the amount of fuel that I use, for the sake of convienence and speedy burning.

Also, a little bit of that fiberglass pink insulation from the attic or around the water heater, when placed inside the burner unit just prior to final assembly, will keep the fuel from sloshing about so readily. This will be a nice, possibly important, addition to the burners built for the boat.

Good Gimballing!

CaptK

[ebb]

CaptK,
you've got it, by George, I believe you've got it!
Round pot in square hole is out of the box innovative!
But the swedes have done it befor us.

Having just been all over the Optimus pages, they have the adjustable gimbals and the adjustable fids, already invented. Ready made. Sturdy.
And me, sitting here huntin & peckin, instead of looking for that raspberry tea can, why, for just 150 bucks more I could have the stove too!

Dave wooden approve, cause it's
new. Uses yer wallet instead of yer brain......

[marymandara]

It's just..I have a teeny brain but a smaller wallet!!! :D

[ebb]

IF alcohol. BIG if, because of the odor of burning and burned fuel - I can see sitting in the cockpit sometime in the future when 338 is FLOATING and making one of Capt K's burners and altering One of Capt. D's found seaswings to accept it. Imagine a little crank to move the flame up or down, or maybe a flame diffuser can be inserted, used for simmering. In the mean time, check this total out for a single burner Swede:

One Burner Portable Alcohol Origo 1500 - $170
Gimbals 3002................................... - 60
Pot Holder Set..................................- 32
spare fuel Canister............................ - 38
Canister Gaskets (rugs to prevent evaporation)
.................................................. ... - 4
.............................a mere...................$300 - not including the shipping. You can find it cheaper on Sailnet, and also astonishingly more expensive on some marine internet sites, so watch it!

Hand me that rasberry tea can and those sissors.

[Hull376]

Here's a 1960's vintage cast aluminum Sea Swing which was used originally with a can of Sterno. Its been modified as Dave brainstormed a couple of posts back in this thread. Has worked fine--- probably needs a 1/2" coupling about an inch or two long to move the burner a little closer to the pot if I wanted to be fussy about it. This stove already had a hole in the bottom through which a standard Coleman type single burner fit through with no modifications necessary. The assembly is held in place by the nut on the top side of the valve threads. The cut out in the bottom was stock as well, and made a great spot to locate the on/off valve control---- some room for the fingers to get a good grip.

[ebb]

Does look good! Looks simple, nice fotos.....
What the fuel, brain not functioning, methane?

[marymandara]

Very Cool, Kent!

The only Sterno-can SeaSwing I had previously seen was markedly different from the standard SeaSwing stove mount...yours looks to be the same thing as the standard optimus-stove version.

This brings up an interesting possibility I want to mention...the stove itself in the seaswing is a standard Optimus stove, very common, parts still available (although most come from the hardware store)...Force 10 replacement burners fit fine...and I have seen the things sell on Ebay (the stove alone) for 5 bucks! Just search "kerosene stove" or "otimus stove". BTW, those burners come as either Alcohol or Kero (I have 1 of each, Just in Case).

Just to be sure, I dug my SeaSwing out of the coat closet just now and measured...Dimension from bottom of stove mounting flange to bottom of the pot holder is appx. 4-1/2". If yours is of this same size, you could convert to other fuel as needed...or, (Ebb???) you could put an alky one together. The sterno-can ones are probably very cheap, as so little is commonly known about the stoves already that the gimbal/potholder only would likely be real cheap at the seajunk store if they had one! (Ebb, I am sorry that I had forgotten about the burners until now. DOH! The only change is in the burner, you can screw one off and the other on (and swill out the fuel tank a bit) and go right at it.

Also...Force 10 sell a springy-stainless slide-type bracket for the current sorry version of the SeaSwing such as it is; this same bracket will work on the vintage model stoves and are pretty neat as you can have two of 'em (I do) to allow you to mount the SeaSwing securely in it's usual spot and also be able to move it out-of-doors for cooking in hot weather. For that matter, if the Wx was good and a person wanted a hotter burner (for crab?) the fuel/burner could be swapped out easily and no worries of sooting or fumes would be in effect!

These are cool old stoves, really neat items. They are also pretty bone simple and use no special parts to speak of, which is amazing. There is a near-100 percent likelihood that if you buy one it will not work properly, though. Easy to fix, there are a few tricks to it but not many. Just about everyone in the local OarClub clatch seems to have one, so I've gotten to play with just a few and learn from other who have as well. If anyone gets one and has questions, please feel free to ask. If it's useful to me or to others too, then it's valuable knowlege, but if it's not used it just becomes worthless trivia I am clogging my last dozen or so remaining brain cells with! :D

Best,
Dave

[commanderpete]

How much should you expect to pay for a vintage Sea Swing? My boat came with the mounting bracket but not the stove.

I looked on ebay once or twice. Saw a cruddy beat-up one go for $80. Seemed a bit steep.

[marymandara]

I usually see them --when I do--for around 50.00 as a beater or 75.00 for a good one at the seajunk stores. The aluminum will inevitably be black and the brass very ugly...and the pump may not make pressure. The pump is rebuildable with Viton rubber O-rings from the local industrial bearing shop, BTW.

I have a very cherry one that I managed to find as 'New Old Stock'. I do not want to admit to how much IT was! Suffice to say I pretty much could've bought that Origo setup Ebb was looking at...

Sometimes you will see one with a leaky tank, usually right around where the burner attaches (from repeated bending due to rough handling or careless storage). These can be repaired easily by silver-soldering (if you happen to know a jeweler, you will get a super-bang-up-job done!) or if the tank is really thrashed you may want to just buy another optimus stove off of e-bay.

That old Optimus is sort of the VW Bug of stoves in terms of simplicity and repairability.

Meguiar All-Metal does a pretty good job on the aluminum, and brasso does a great job on the stove itself. Just don't use the brasso on the Aluminum parts, it'll etch!

Also...the thumbscrews are often missing from the bracket, which is an easy fix---take a look at the pic I put up of my friend Tom's stove in his Albin Vega 27...that's a standard thumbscrew from the hardware store holding the bracket and it works great! I did round over the tip of the screw a bit for him, but it worked OK without, too.

I see Peter is dreaming of hot drinks from just inside his comp'way, huh??? ;)

Dave

[marymandara]

Another possibility exists for a gimballed stove which I should also mention:

My friend James Baldwin has built several gimballed one-burner stoves over time that will hold a 10" fry pan (!) or a large pot, and also will use small LPG bottles if desired (his standard setup is kero). He has just set himself up with a bit of a landbase for the first time in 20-some years, and has facility to manufacture some of the things he has cooked up (no pun intended) over the years, including these stoves. Check them (and the rest of his site) out at www.atomvoyages.com .

Also, James and Mei are presently staying aboard a larger boat they are fitting out for someone which is equipped with both a regular cooker and a one-burner Origo setup just like Ebb was talking about. Probably because they are used to only one burner, they use the Origo sea stove for all their cooking. James reports that it is working out to something on the order of 25-30.00 per month for alcohol fuel as opposed to 3.00 a month for kerosene that they are used to. Cooking times, say James, run appx. 10 percent longer with the alky.

Best,
Dave

[ebb]

Dave,
Please inform Capt James that there is at least one customer in Calif. for his kero/propane single burner. I really like the open wire design, what I can make out of it on his site. I also like the macho size of it, altho an 8" wouild be good too. A larger stove would make some cooking much easier. His stove is THE alternative to the boxy stainless steel space robbers that belong on floating condos with kitchens.

If he flogs plans, I'ld be interested as well. Have access to full shop :)

With Forespar and Force Ten flat on their faces with their peculiarly useless single gimbaled stoves, and, I think, the real need for a small boat single burner he has developed and has so much experience with - he could have a niche market.

There used to be mini 'export' fabricators in places like Taiwan who would make the parts inexpensively. James could sell an assemble-yourself version for the mechanically challenged. Time challenged is more likely. A right-on, priced right, versatile stove is exactly what the small boat sailor needs. Make it so. :cool:

[marymandara]

Hey, Ebb--
Just use the link on the website to drop him an E-mail, you may be able to work something out and/or he may be willing to build you a stove...I believe he is willing/able to do a modicum of fabrication work at this point if someone really wants. I think...not know. Never hurts to ask!
Dave

[willie]

Hey Kent, could you give me a quick link to where i can get the burner and valve assembly you used? Looks like just what i want. I dug around on the coleman site, but finally gave up trying to find the right one. I have the seaswing now, just need the guts. I sent a privite mssg. also to you. Thanks, Bill

[SailorLiz]

This link is for any of you gourmet chefs. Ummm...I can smell the bread baking.... I'm sure it would fit in the galley of an Ariel with a little modification.

http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=13581

(I'm not affiliated with this store or company.)

;)

[Hull376]

Willie,

I found the box to my old single burner stove--- it was made by American Camper and was purchased at a Houston Oshman's. I went to the Oshman's home page (www.oshmans.com) and searched for propane stove, and found that they still sell one with the brand name "century". Here's the link to the page http://www.oshmans.com/product/index.jsp?productId=979759&cp&page=2&keywords=propane+stove&searchId=5354366832&doVSearch=no&pageBucket=0&parentPage=searchundefined

Can't tell how close it is to mine. You could also try this number for American Camper 1-800-315-CAMP to see if they still sell theirs. By the way, I took apart my swing, sawed off the 3 "drops" that attach to the bottom of the pot holder, then re-bolted on the bottom piece. that moved the burner about 2 1/2 inches closer to the pot holder. I decided that extending the burner tube would probably have messed up the air to gas mixture since these burners rely on the propane accelerating past the small holes in the tube to draw in the right air mixture.

[c_amos]

While I continue to look for a gimbaled stove, I use my butane stove I have had for years.

Great unit, much better then the propane camping stoves I have used in the past. THe only draw back had been that it was difficult to find the correct butane cylinders.

I once ordered a case of 12, but the freight was high. West Marine charges $5.99 each for them :eek:

The local ACE hardware will get them in some times for about half that, but it is hit or miss.

Tonight I saw them at Wal-Mart (the other WM) for $1.87. :D

A quick online survey shows the stoves going from $39 - $69. However if you check on E-Bay there are a bunch of them for about $15

http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/d9/99/72_1_b.JPG

[ebb]

FINALLY DECIDED
338 is going to have a single burner stove and is now the proud owner of a nickel plated Petromax 'multifuel' kerosene burner that I got from Britelyt. It's not a camping stove being an impressive 8" diameter. Haven't tried it yet. I want to gimbal it like Jim Baldwin's.

So I have to ask, having never built gimbals: Has anybody had any experience bending s.s. rod? How do you get those perfect circles? Around a form?

Has anybody built the Baldwin Gimbals? I may try to put it lower down at 'counter' height in a tradition lined box setup in an attempt to get it out of the way. Has anybody else shunned propane? I'd like to continue a discussion about a voyaging stove set up.

[eric (deceased)]

My Post On Sailing To Hawaii On Starcrest States The Alcohol Wouldnt Stay In The Preheat Cup.a Subsequent Voyage On A 90 Foot Schooner Used A Propane Torch To Preheat The Burner,that Is What I Used On Starcrest 2 now I Just Use Propane For Cooking On My Current Boat....'starcrest Too.....the Range Of M'ocean'

[ebb]

Eric, thank you for your feedback.

This model Petromax has a preheater in the form of an extra tube and valve that uses the fuel in the tank, preferably kerosene, to heat the burner. You pump up the tank to a red mark on the dial, light the preheater for 60 seconds, big flame, flip off the valve on the preheater and listen for the stove to light. Then you repressurize and after that supposedly the tank is ok whether you turn the burner up or down. Sounds like you might cook with it. But I still have to play with it.

There is a rudimentary tray on the burner you still can use for alcohol, but it wouldn't hold anything. Maybe a saturated fiberglass wick would be possible.

Always thinking of this thing in gimbals, what caught my eye was that you get a fitting that replaces the pump that allows you to pump up pressure thru a tube, like a bicycle pump. Maybe sounds weird, but so does pumping up the tank when its swinging around. I imagined the pump could be hard mounted at the side of the stove box and the tube permanently connected to the tank would flex and do its thing. Actually... sounds almost civilized!

This nickel plated stove looks sharp. Looks nicely made, has some heft to it. Not tinny. It's about 8" round and 8" tall. It has to have custom gimbals made for it. I thought I'd start with Jim Baldwin's kero stove setup and go from there. Keeping the shape of that old double-action aluminum seaswing stove in mind for proportions. 8" cooker, 10" sauce pan. :cool:

[cjackson]

:) Check out this link...with a little bit of metal fab work this could be adapted quite well I think! The price is unbelievable by comparison!!!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp;jsessionid=GU40IQEEGBEKVTQSNOISCOOOCJVZII WE?id=0030006517180a&navCount=0&cmCat=srchdx&cm_ven=srchdx&cm_ite=srchdx&CM_REF=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cabelas.com%2Fproducts%2FC pod0030006.jsp&_requestid=75674

[c_amos]

Kent,

Just bought a sea swing, and it is the same sterno model that you modified.


Going to give the sterno a shot first, but I wonder if you are still happy with this set up? Specifically I am wondering about the distance from the burner to the bottom of the pot.



Here's a 1960's vintage cast aluminum Sea Swing which was used originally with a can of Sterno. Its been modified as Dave brainstormed a couple of posts back in this thread. Has worked fine--- probably needs a 1/2" coupling about an inch or two long to move the burner a little closer to the pot if I wanted to be fussy about it. This stove already had a hole in the bottom through which a standard Coleman type single burner fit through with no modifications necessary. The assembly is held in place by the nut on the top side of the valve threads. The cut out in the bottom was stock as well, and made a great spot to locate the on/off valve control---- some room for the fingers to get a good grip.
Also, where have others mounted these? I think I remember Eric saying his was on the hanging locker side, I am wondering where this swinging, hanging stove will be comfortable onboard an Ariel.... :confused:

Thanks,

[Hull376]

Using the sterno should raise the flame to the right height. If you go with a propane fitting, it will be a little too low (as you can see in pics I posted earlier in this thread.). I have since cut down the three "legs" that attach the bottom piece to the pan by about two inches or so, then re-drilled the holes in the cut down legs and re-inserted the screws from the top side of the pan (see post 34 above). Raised the flame to just where I wanted it and was pretty easy to do, but you can't un do it once you make this decision. I'm happy with the mod to propane. See pic of cut-down version. I mounted at comp-way so could easily reach from the cockpit.

[ebb]

Thanks James for responding to the stove question. (On your dryout legs thread.)
I can understand not being set up to produce a niche product.
I also know that any interest HERE in this Forum is HIGHLY SPECULATIVE.
Most of the skippers in this Forum won't be going foreign. 'Course I believe that is changing.
I participated in a discussion here on the subject of stoves and fuels and came to the lonely conclusion that while I hated kerosene it was in my future.

Everyone else around here is a propane fan. So this is likely the last on this subject. Your experience that kerosene is a world wide fuel was the clincher for me. Might call it the people's fuel and may in some way be the least polluting petroleum product because of the way it is used. Irresponsible corporate production of the liquid we'll study about later!

Don't remember if it came up on the old thread but I have a very nice looking kerosene lantern and an equally impressive BRITELYT Multi-fuel stove. Britelyt says they replace the old Petromax, Geniol & Hipolito stoves. In fact some web pages are IDed as Britelyt-Petromax. The stove will supposedly burn kerosene, mineral spirits, citronella oil, gasoline, diesel, bio-diesel, methanol, ethanol and alcohol. You can't just dump in what fuel you want without a bunch of downhome fiddling based on the number of summers you went camping. I haven't tried to start these two up yet - because I know they will consume a lot of time and FOCUS. Britelyt promises all the support you need, parts and spares, they repair old lanterns, and have a tech line. For what I got, I think the price was right.

Instructions for setting up for burning kerosene has you pumping up a bit of fuel into a preburner to light and heat the burner. I believe it is under a little pressure itself. No dosing with alcohol needed - altho you can do it the old way if you desire. You curl a piece of fiberglass wick into the cup and douse that with your little alcohol squirt bottle. I'd like to hear from someone who's done it a number of times. SOOT? It could be BS, yet some BS is revolutionary!

Where these burners are made escapes me. They look too well made for Taiwan or Mainland China. Or India, where zillions of small kitchen stoves are stamped out of sheet.
These are strong and beautifully made, beautifully finished chromed/brass metal art pieces.
How they are in daily use on a boat?..........

OK, where's that bread recipe?

It was the multifuel option that caught my eye. And the no alcohol start up. Their website is a bit of a challenge to extract info from. Their shipment arrived with a totally confusing video.
I don't know how anybody makes a decision to go cruise with a kerosene stove.
It's just something some people just DO.
www.britelyt.com

James, I was interested in your gimbal.
It's more time-consuming engineering that I thought I could cheat my way out of!
That's OK, there'll be time to gimbal when Little Gull gets in the water! And I have a copy of your plans from your GENEROUS webpage. Really nice, THANKS.:D
Interested to hear your take on these Britelyt stoves. Aside from their expense, I know!
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Sorry for the repetition!!! After Bill put this over to here, ole single track scrolled back this page.... and it sure looks like what James got from me was a repeat of what's already here! Must be the beans.:p

[atomvoyager]

Ebb,

You're a very lucky man - you have not tried to light the bitelyte yet. You still have time to drop it in the trash and put it out of your life. Walk away and don't look back.

Or you can do as I did. I bought the stove two years ago when I was researching where to source stoves for a couple customers and friends. I struggled with that piece of junk all day - never got it to burn a full minute. It leaked fuel from all that pretty plumbing that could not be tightened or gasketed. Bitelyte folks said send it back, so I did. They never issued my refund! I called. They stalled. First the mother was sick. Then someone had a vacation. Months later they said they lost the paperwork. ARGH! Also, once I got my hands on the thing it became clear that there was no easy way to mount it to a gimbaled potholder.

There is nothing I can see about the stove that makes it more multi-fuel than the Butterfly. Don't even think about pouring gasoline in it:eek:

Well, maybe you'll have better luck than I did. If not, you might try the link in an earlier post:

http://www.stpaulmercantile.com/MilesStair.htm
Brass Pressure Stove - $50 (2 for $90)
Pressurized solid brass stove can be disassembled and carried in a backpack.
---------------------------
These appear to be the same stoves as mine and cheaper than I can sell them. But mine come with a useable preheat wick and are pre-tested and have spares available so it's comparable value.

One minor issue is that these stoves used to be all brass except the pump rod, which doesn't rust anyway because it is in an oily environment in the pump tube, but the past few years most Indian manufacturers have substituted brass plated steel flame rings and preheat cups which will rust eventually when pots washed in seawater are set on the stove. Not a big problem if you have spares, but it is annoying. A few of my stoves got out with these brass-plated parts, so I sent some spares along with them. I'm still trying to source the solid brass and have just a few right now. I don't
know if the above supplier has plated steel or solid brass.

Contact me when you're ready to weld up your gimbal and I'll send you some detailed instructions and dimensions.

My stove page was updated a few months ago for anyone who wants to see what we're talking about:

http://atomvoyages.com/projects/AtomStove.htm

James

[ebb]

A lucky man I am, James!
In a minute I'll phone St Paul and get a couple.


Always been a magpie and a shill's easy mark.
Hard to fault such (apparently) well made objects as the Britelyt stove and lantern. Proof's in the working....!
Comparing the two, the Butterfly by photo, the Bitelite stove is a WHOLE HIPHOP of "plumbing". A lot of brass tubes, levers, knobs and returns of soldered joints popping in-and-out of the tank and looping over the burner - that obviously should be perfectly assembled. Simple is the more dependable and more easy to fix. Like a waltz.

Appreciate the tip, the lead, and your offer to help with the gimbal.

It appears from the website that Britelyt is a small, privately owned outfit. It was incredibly stupid how unskillfully you were treated by them. Can always blame the help, but the manager should have been on top of it and sent you another stove (air pressure tested at least) free of charge, and an apologetic letter. Theirs is a word of mouth product. Unbelievable!

There will be a cursery light up and comparison between the two brands in the near future. Have the low-odor kero ready to go.


In the interior remodel of Little Gull, I have the aft seat of the starboard side dinet at the c'way ladder. An image keeps arriving in my head that a single burner gimbaled stove will be in a bay just opposite the seat on the port side - so the LIGHTING and cooking can be done sitting down. A 'braced' position!

I will also explore a stove hood of some sort - it could be folding sheetmetal - it could be fabric/wire coil like big airhose - but the hood needs to conduct positive OUT venting for nasties with a small builtin fan that is part of it. We'll see about that! But there WILL be positive out venting of stove lightup. There is no room or route in this busy part of the cabin for anything fancy or permanent. The c'way hatch is overhead. Hmmmmm, maybe a customed top hatchboard with a small fan in it....a plug in hatchboard! But this can all be sussed out when the boat is in the water.

The other issue now is the space needed for a full swinging stove. Trying to put it low in the Ariel is limited by the turn in the hull. It's all about keeping the stove with a pot of boiling water out of the aisle when heeled.

A functioning kerosene cooker can double as a heater. Kerosene and other fuels have to be vented totally, but they say you can get away with burning alcohol below being a little more casual about ventalation. Yeah, I know, C'monoxide:eek: Seems to me, extra stoves ain't a bad idea.

************************************************** **************************************

YOU HAVE A PATENTABLE STOVETOP
there with your 'Mark IV' more compact looking lower surround with the adjustable pan/pot holder. AND adjustable counter weight. You have something unique there too!
It certainly is a 'niche market' product.
BUT
Your top could be universalized to include many cooking fuels with the right stove. It could be customed into another mode with a burn plate for the 1# screw on propane cans.
It's a great versatile top you have going there! Your nearest and only competitors: the two single burner (marketed as heavy weather extra) propane can stoves in the market require special small size gear to cook with. And "COOK" is in quotes, because of the constricted tops. Last I heard the Force 10 will take only a 7" pot! And Forespar only special-made-for-their-stove.

Small boats don't need, can't give up the space for three burner stoves with ovens. A two burner countertop drop-in is just about the only possibility - even that takes too much valuable real estate. They all look rediculous to me on a boat under 30' - unless you're a chef. A true chef would take the single as a challenge! And write a one-pot meal cookbook! A single burner with a generous well thought out top like yours might break out of the niche and get mainstreamed in smaller boats and trailer sailers. The right single burner stove hasn't been invented yet.

Well, maybe it HAS... just not marketed yet!!!:D