Used boat purchase

[Steve Cherry]

Greetings,
I live in NC and I am looking at a 1973 Ariel that has suffered storm damage. The boat will have to repowered and the rudder will have to be replaced. In addition some deck work will have to be done. When it is all said and done I would anticipate spending at least $4,000.00 on top of the purchase price. My goal would be to buy the boat at around $1,000.00. To repower the boat I would use an outboard motor.
I question whether this would be a good investment or not. It would be great to hear from this forum as to whether this would be a good investment or if I should just forget it.
Any comments would be appreciated.
Steve C.

[ebb]

well I think it is purely subjective. It very much depends on what you are going to do with it. If it is a real fixer you have to trust in your ability and imagination. If you are new to it all, you have to know there will be reality surprises as you go along. The boatyard where I'm at, there are sailboats that just sit there waiting, when the guy gives up and sends the master the pink slip, He doesn't bother to advertise, he crushes the poor thing and takes it to the landfill.

That said, Ariels and Commanders are beautyful, kindly craft. Any level of fixing up will pay off in a lot of pleasure. The whole range of Alberg boats are absolutely spectacular. His reputation still seems to grow. Ariels and Commanders can cross oceans or provide a romantic weekend with the blink of an eye. You can still pick them up cheap - but mark my words, there soon will come a time when they will become classics and demand much more loot.

Now, there is a Manual available. THAT increases the value and resale of your project.

When you wade thru this resouce you can pluck out plenty of facts, advice, opinions, humor, AND SUPPORT - which I think probably increases the value of an A/C too!

Like she said: GO FOR IT !

:cool:

[Steve Cherry]

Greetings V-C,
Thank you so much for your post in response to my quest for help.
I agree that what to do is very subjective when you are starting with a very rough boat.
If you have any opinions as to what would be a reasonable investment to fix-up the '73 Areil before exceeding any hope of recovering your investment, I would like to hear from you.
The basic concept is that I don't mind spending the time and money to fix the boat but I do mind going beyond what's a reasonable recovery level on my investment.
I agree that a restored Ariel is a beautiful vessel and feel that this is something worth doing as long as I keep my cost at a proper level.
Steve

[Bill]

The model date you indicate for the Pearson yacht is well past the last date of production for an Ariel -- 1967 is about their end. If it is a 1973 Pearson and if it is 26 feet, it is probably a Shaw designed P26. There is a Pearson board that focuses on second generation Pearson's.

[commanderpete]

Cost of Boat: $1,000
Cost to Restore: $4,000
Total: $5,000


Man hours spent on Restoration: 500+

Value of Boat after Restoration : $5,995

Not a good investment. No boat is.

People do it for other reasons.

Mostly they're nuts.

[Steve Cherry]

Bill,
I stand corrected on the year. It is a 1965 not 1973. When I visited the marina this week, the person I delt with said it was a 1973 but when I re-checked the listing this morning, it was stated to be a 1965.
Thanks for your post. It's great to get as much knowledge as you can before taking action and this forum surely can give me some sense of direction.
Take care.
Steve

[Steve Cherry]

Commanderpete,
Thanks for your reply to my post. That's what I was looking for in terms of developing some idea of what the future value of a restored Areil might be.
I realize that boats, like most recreational items, are not good investments. They are however the source of so much pleasure and of course pain too.
Thanks for your interest and support.
Take care.
Steve

[Bill]

Since the boat is an Ariel, we are here to help. And becasue masochists love company, we strongly encourage you to purchase it. :D

[Steve Cherry]

Bill,
Thanks so much for the reply. I will get down to the marina that 's listing the Pearson and see what the fine details look like to repair the Ariel.
Since I know the rudder needs to be replaced, is it possible to replace it with a stock rudder? I have no idea how the parts situation is for this year boat. I would expect it may be a custom fabrication process!
Thanks for the encouragement and support.
Take care.
Steve

[Bill]

Lot's of talk on the board about rudder replacement. If it's the "board," then a couple of pieces of mahogany cut to shape will do just fine. (Manual has diagram of fastener locations, etc.) If the shaft or shoe is failing, an expensive replacement is in order. If things are just a bit "loose," then a new rudder post bearing should take care of the problem.

Click on the "search" button at the top of the page and type in "rudder." You should get lots of stuff . . .:)

[Steve Cherry]

Bill,
I was advised that the shaft is snapped. So it appears that it would be a cost of over $1,000.00 from what I recall being said.
That was part of the estimated $4,000.00 needed to get her repaired. Are their "stock" items that one can purchase for repairs? If everything is custom that norammly means a more expensive fix. I will follow you advise and check out the info under the search mode of this site.
Again, thanks for the effort to help me.
Hope life is good for you.
Steve

[Bill]

The break is probably in the upper half of the rudder shaft, so you will need to purchase only half of the total shaft (and have it bent). Several sources of "marine bronze" 1" rod have been noted in earlier posts.

As for "stock" parts, little is currently available. Patterns for deck hardware and fittings are out there and we may have a source of those items in the next year. (See Ronstan, RI and hardware posts.) Stemheads, rudder shoes and the like are all custom. Bristol Bronze has a stemhead pattern (courtesy of Ebb) and he and others have had, or are having rudder shoes cast.

Please let us know the hull number of the boat that has your interest. And be sure to register it, if you make the purchase.

Bill

[marymandara]

If you are going to build a new rudder, and do not need an aperture...you could probably just make a 1-pc. shaft, I think...and save the cost of bending. Not too long ago, I bought a 7 foot length of 1" Naval Bronze shafting, new, for about 95.00.
The same metal supplier you use for the shafting should be able to provide stock for the cross pins as well. Note here that I mention a metal supplier...NOT a marine vendor. Naval Bronze shafting is what it is regardless who you buy it from, but the difference in price is like 3-fold or more many times.

The machining on the shaft is very straightforward and can be done by anyone with a milling machine. If you have a local vocational/technical college, a visit with the Machine Technology instructor will probably get it done very inexpensively.

For a stock Ariel rudder, 1K is highway robbery, IMO. You should be able to do a new rudder for more like 350.00 tops.

Hope this helps,
Dave

[ebb]

Capt Steve,
Couple nights ago while surfing the tube we paused on the Suze Orman show. You know, she's the one with 72 teeth and the call in money advice show. She very nearly got beside herself when a young man, who had just paid off his credit card debt wanted to know if he could buy a house. The upshot was that NO he couldn't because he needed a substantial down payment to get his monthly payment reasonable plus reality fees like closing costs, taxes and etc.

You have to get real about the costs in owning a fixer. If you can have the project outside where you live you save on the monthly yard fee, travel time, gas, wear and tear on your vehicle, and the inconvenience of working in an unsecure environment. Then there's all the upgrades you'll have to do.

$1000 buys you the shape of a boat. Sure, the rudder needs to be fabricated. But how's the deck and its balsa core doing? Is the compression beam/bulkhead/maststep is good shape? Are you prepared to take the bottom down to the gelcoat and apply an epoxy barrier coat so that the encapsulated lead keel can be kept relatively free of water.
How's the mast and rigging......the list goes on.

Perhaps a better metaphore is the restoration of a 52 Chevy pickup. It isn't reasonable to assume you are going to get your ivestment back. After it's restored to whatever level, you'll be able to sell it at the going price. Take a look at the few boats that were for sale here. A real dolled up Ariel with all the toys is, what, $10,000, maybe $15,000?

You'll never get it. Because everybody wants a bargain! The real investment (what are YOU worth, $1 or $100 an hour? - for the time you will put in on the refit.) The only good investment is in the time and energy spent with your boat. If the boat gives you a rush every time you see her, that's the investment.

C'pete's mantra you should tape to the stern as you begin the eternal renovation!

YOU have been chosen.

[mrgnstrn]

I think I would have to agree with most people about these boats.
They are ANYTHING but an investment.
And really with girls this old, you don't choose the boat, she chooses you.
I, myself, bought a '62 Ariel in...Oct '02 or so. And it had not really been maintained for about 12 years until I bought her.
Put in hundreds of hours in labor to bring her up to snuff. And I thought that it would be smart to start on the "capital investment" type projects. things like: replace all the wiring with new, up-to-code wire and connections; strip the bottom down to the gelcoat and lay on anti-osmosis water barrier; get a good strong outboard, in case of rough water.
Did she sail any better after all that, not really. Will I ever see that time and money when I sell her, not a chance. But now I have a foundation to built a pretty girl on. Or re-build after Isabel as the case is.

And as for "stock" parts around: the only real source are other Ariel/Commanders that are going to the graveyard.

$1000 for an Ariel, sure. Sounds like a steal. The decks can wait a few years (maybe 2 or 3).
An outboard will be easy to do.
The rudder, well good luck, I have to replace mine after Izzy, too. See the many posts on that subject.

[ebb]

>whot a sour bunch of putzes! he wants to hear it's a piece a cake.<

It'll be many beers, Capt Steve, befor you're done. If you insist on great ales, as I do, you gotta put it in the materials column against your asking price. More beer, less profit.


Some people here can put an Ariel back together in nothing flat, it is a mystery how he does it. But there definitely is a slow way and a fast way. That's for you to decide.

After you get it sailing again you could remarket it as a new fangled ab machine on the tube, become a millionaire and retire.


oh...:D

[tcoolidge]

Given that boats are addictions, not investments, and you are never going to get all of your time and money back (but you will be repaid ten times over in other ways) if you are looking for a sound investment you should probably look elsewhere. That being said, if the boat bug has infected you you're probably doomed anyhow so you might want to look at the costs as what you get for the money, not what you will get back. $1000 for the hull, $4-5000 for repairs (it always costs more than you plan) so figure $6000 for a reasonaby sound Ariel. Don't know what your local market is like but that's not unreasonable in mine. Are there better boats than Ariels? Certainly. Can you buy one for $6000? Highly unlikely. It's more likely that you will pay twice that and still have repairs to do. Are there better $6000 boats? I don't know of any. So for $6000 you end up with a sturdy. seaworthy, rather remarkable little boat, which doesn't sound like such a bad deal. You won't get more boat for the money. When you figure in that you get the use of the boat and will eventually be able to recover most of your costs it sounds even better. And there is the undeniable advantage that you don't have to work as much just to pay for the boat so you can sail more. That's what sold me when I bought my fixer Ariel. Now I have a nice little boat that I know thoroughly and don't owe a dime on so those days I would have been working to make the boat payment I can spend on the water.
$1000 does seem like a rip off for the rudder shaft. $350 sounds much more reasonable and realistic. Marymandara's suggestion of buying the materials and having your local vocational college metal shop make you a new one is a very good one. Then you'll end up with an extra few hundred to spend on something else. Trust me, it will get spent.

[c_amos]

Steve,

I realize the last post on this thread is 3 months old, but if you are still considering the Ariel send me a message.

I am in NC also, mine is sitting in the New River. Maybe seeing one afloat would help you to make up your mind. (I know it did mine).

Craig

[Steve Cherry]

Craig,
Thanks so much for your offer. The boat I was looking at was bought before I made a decision about it. My status is "On Hold" as far as a boat goes. There have been some items that I must put before buying a boat at this date.
Is your boat in a marina or is it at a privite residence on the New River? My work gets me to Jacksonville from time to time. It would be great to see your boat when my work takes me down your way. Thanks again for such a kind offer.
Take care.
Steve

[c_amos]

I have PM'ed you my contact info,

Just let me know when you are going to be in the area, and
we can see about setting something up. Most afternoons
work for me, just give me a call at the office.

[SkipperJer]

Steve, if you're still listening, keep in mind that owning any old boat is a purely selfish hobby. If you are at all concerned about recouping your investment consult with an experienced broker in your area and buy a boat less than 10 years old. Those of us on this board enjoy being surrounded by tool boxes, drawings, dust, paint and expensive materials from boat stores as much as we do sailing. We don't often admit to this but look in any DIY boatyard this time of the year and you'll see plenty of sweaty, happy "sailors" working on boats, talking boats, bragging boats but still not sailing boats.

We are in love with the fact that we made it right enough to sail safe with our own hands. We measure the cost against our satisfaction with a job well done. We see every breakdown as a challenge to our ingenuity not a financial loss. Our spouses suffer over this a lot. It's not about increasing the resale value of the boat--never will be for this bunch. It's not really about the boats either. It's about us.

SkipperJer
Happily afflicted owner of Commander #270