Ave maria #350

[willie]

Thought I'd see if this will work. Yeah, nice photo of a blue tarp. Let's go sailing!:D

[Jim Wiles]

Willie,
Saw on the Weather Channel a few days ago that you had some real heavy snowfall out there and your pic. proves it. I second your statement "let's go sailing"; how about we make it someplace warm!
Jim

[willie]

I'm thinking Baja is nice this time o' year. More snow, 16''out in yard now. And cold!! supposed to be near 0 tonight. More snow on the way too! Here's a shot of my current project/research. Open to ideas. Trailing edge of keel inside shoe needs some repair also --if anyone has done this, please send HO's and advice. thanks!

[Jim Wiles]

Willie,
I take it that this is the shoe off of your Ariel and the interior of the shoe has partially been eroded by electrolysis; or is this the one that you found on eBay?
Are our shoes held on by five fasteners as suggested by your photo showing five holes?
I placed an anode on my shoe last season for insurance and could'nt wait to see it this fall when we hauled. I'm not even in a hot marina and our anode has really been pitted and eroded. Will change again in the spring before we launch.
Jim

[willie]

Found the shoe from an ad in 'Good old Boat'. Thanks Brian! From a Vanguard. Looks good to me. The part missing is the trailing edge of keel, about 2''inside shoe. Still has 3 good mounting holes. Was attached with bronze pins, peened over on the ends. Trailing edge had some type of fairing compound?? that came off with old shoe. Any thoughts?
I'm ready for spring!!!

Jim: how about a photo of your trailer? Especially the keel channel.

[Hull376]

Willie,

Someone (probably ebb, apologies if it was someone else) discussed the issue of the missing edge of the keel that fits in the shoe. If I remember the thread correctly, Pearson had a hard time getting cloth/roving pressed completely into the far reaches of the keel during layup, so it wouldn't be unusual for the mold to have some spots containing mostly resin (no cloth or roving). This would make it brittle and, as you mentioned, it could easily break off when the shoe is removed. Sounds like a little bit of laminate work would restore the trailing edge back to good as new so you can properly mount your new shoe with all the mounting holes.

[ebb]

you're right, it has been covered adnauseum. But it's muy importante.
I cleaned up the area of all plain 'crystallized' resin. Did not remove any impregnated fiberglass. Grinded it clear and clean. Kept as much of the indent shape that the shoe fits over as possible.

Fit the new shoe over the 'heel' to determine where the thru pins would go. Used the hole pattern of the old one. Marked the spaces on the boat where no pins would go. Drilled and screwed in TWO 1/2" bronze lags vertically up into the keel (5 - 6" ?) like dental root canal pins, leaving the last inch to inch and a half exposed. One of the lags was positioned as far aft as possible to get more bite against the weight of the rudder. You want the furthest aft pin to go thru AFT of the bolt. Like you're locking everything together.

You will have to determine how much of the bolts to leave out by dry fitting the shoe. The more lagbolt into the new repair the better. There isn't much room for all these fastenings. Thought of increasing the surface area of the bolts by including a washer, but for some reason didn't - but there is no reason not to include a washer on one or both bolts. Grind the oxidation off the exposed head and neck of the lags bright.

Lined the new shoe with saran wrap. Wet out the heel with raw epoxy mix getting it into every nook and cranny, including the bolts. Wiped it off, mostly. Mixed up enough mishmash (mixed epoxy, then chopped strand, then silica - in that order) stiff enough to pack into the estimated volume around the exposed bolts. Do a good job packing the keel surface with material. You want to seat the new shoe into the old indent, without having the mix sag off the top of the repair or the bolts. Used a bottle screw from the ground to hold it in place. Would expect some squeeze-out.

Depending on how much heel you have to replace, you may have to jig the new shoe into position viz the rudder shaft hole. Or even to center it on the boat. But at this point you are just repairing the keel. Once the repair is set, knock the shoe off, remove the plastic. You'll now be able to reposition the shoe exactly where you want it. A little grinding if you have to move it forward, some filling if aft. You'll also fill in any spots or small holes you missed with more mm at this time. The main strengthening has been done.

Remount the shoe dry and drill for the pins, 5200 the shoe back on, let it set, using dowels to hold it in place. Don't let anybody tell you to use a lesser product than 5200 - this fitting does a lot of work and should be as solid as you can make it! Let it set. Then goop the holes, drive the pins, and peen with a ballpeen hammer. [Make sure the rudderpost is parallel to the keel the same measure all the way down to the shoe. I used a dead straight 1" dowel in the bushing at the top of the rudder tube, that reached to the corresponding hole in the shoe.]

Silicone bronze soft rod is hard to find. Used regular silicon rod that was difficult to peen into the chamfers (countersinks) on the holes thru the shoe. Very minor chamfers, less than you'ld do for a flathead screw. If the rod is hard you'ld never fill the cavity. Experiment first with the peening. Used C-clamps and flat bar to have something to bang against.

That's one way to do it. Good luck! The shoe on the A/C holds all the weight and action of the rudder. I think 338's new heel and shoe will last awhile.:D

[willie]

Amazing how much info. is here--digging it up is the key. A lot in the gallery section. More now! Thanks Ebb.

[willie]

Or Larry Snyder, who is mentioned on page 64,65. Says he trailered her in Oregon, and had the hinged mast step. Would like to take a look at it. Or anyone else's setup that has gone that route. Thanks:rolleyes:

[Jim Wiles]

Bill,
I'm going to have a hinged step made since no one seems to have one on the shelf ready to go. I'm planning on using 1/8" SS, bolt holes will be slotted vertically, sides will be 90 degree bends. When I get my final pattern ready I'll send you a copy.
Jim

[willie]

THOUGHT I'D GIVE THIS A TRY.
Would love to hear comments, thoughts, suggestions...
Ever seen one with a little bow spirit?
Here she sit's before I showed up.

[willie]

Then we went on a trailer.
Sorry about the quality, this one's from the scanner.
And sorry about the size, thought I had it fgured out, guess not!

[willie]

Then we crunched the rudder shoe. Heard about that I think!
So here's another scanned one, on the ferry ride. We were gonna sail, but weatherman said 50+ knots for the day. Went to plan B. Or was it C? oh well. $123.00 for the ride, with Oregon discount.

Note the water line, with yamaha 9.9

[willie]

450 miles later, we're back on the ranch, that's the 'snowed in Ariel' of eariler post. Here's a couple of the interior for fun.

[willie]

v berth. needs some work.

[willie]

And the real Skipper. Yep, he found the noise maker.
I have so much to learn still, but it sure is an adventure.
Thanks.:p

Wow--now it says I'm a professional! Jeez, now this is getting scary!

[ebb]

Capt Bill,
That picture is of you, right? Well you look short enuf - and wise enuf -to own an Ariel!

How about that hanging locker conversion to the galley sink, pretty interesting!

But really have to ask why the waterline of the boat is up so HIGH! - looks like 6" more than 338? Water in the keel?

BOWSPRIT??? Now that is another kettle of bouillabaisse. T'other Bill, the big cheese, he might want to post a little something on that subject!:rolleyes:

[Hull376]

ebby,

Look at first pic in "376 Afloat" thread. Looks about the same waterline as this one. My waterline is painted on the marker lines molded into the hull. Maybe we have the "beer boat" waterline placement. You know, when you get finished loading the cruising beer provisions, you'll sit quite nicely on the waterline!

[Vince Wachter]

Larry Snyder lives in Klamath Falls, Ore.
He had the original casting made for the mast step, I think.
Ariel #123 I think is still in Klamath Falls but don't know where.

[ebb]

Was once befor interested in where the WL is myself, since I'm adding a lotta weight. Nobody really knows where their WL is, I think. But take a look at page 144 in the Manual, that point on the bottom of that world class stern is a FOOT above the designed waterline!

338 has two incised waterlines, but both appear so funky I couldn't imagine them coming from the factory that way. The top one was right at the opening of the original OB well.

[marymandara]

C280's W/L stripe had, uh, flaked off...but the pacement had been on the scribe.

FWIW, once I hauled out the a-bomb and all the related crap, she sat up appx. 2" all the way around and 6" at the stern.

Dave

[willie]

Wow! Amazing results with this forum!!!
And we're practically neighbors! Well, 300 miles or so.
Will see if we can make contact.
Thanks!

[willie]

Ebb, you've a keen eye. Yep, that's me on the boat, almost short enuf at 5'9", not sure about the wise part!
And the waterline is indeed about a foot higher on 'er. She wasn't actually sitting on it in the water, about half way 'tween it and where Prof. Alberg has it.

She's currently on Dave's diet, removing extras, chain, ballast pigs, and soon undergoing major surgery for removal of a yamaha 9.9 tumor. And when the temp. comes up, some letting of water from keel voids. Maybe we can video conference the procedure, and get input for where to make the incisions. I've heard of several proceedures...

Think I'm finally on the mend, and able to use a variety of power tools now, and other delicate instruments.:p

Spring is just around the corner!
Keep the faith!!

[ebb]

Naw! I meant the kid with the squawker. Yea! Get mended and mend the bote! Yer pix coming thru loud and clear.:D

[ebb]

Ballenger Spars in Watsonville CA makes an off-the-shelf mast hinge that seems perfect for the A/Cs. The bottom plate is a massive stamping with the sides bent up at 45 degrees with holes for turning blocks. The top of the hinge that you would attach the mast to is also polished 1/4" s.s. The knuckles where the 3/8" pin goes are very nicely welded on. An extremely robust fitting. Cost me rwo bills. This is not the sheetmetal hinge with the curved hole for a sloppy fit bolt with 1/2 of the mast bottom cut off in a curve.

The SEARCH button up top will get you more discussion on this subject. There are other considerations. One being the cast aluminum insert in the bottom of the mast that you would use to attach the mast to the hinge plate with. I destroyed mine and had to get one fabricated by B.S. You will notice that the original casting also supports the bottom, the perimeter of the mast, as it should.

You could probably make one out of some phenolic tropical wood ply like the mast pad is made out of with a couple router jigs.

Use of the Ballenger hinge, which is a 1/2" thick, means you are changing the height of the mast if you just slap it on top of the old pad.

I haven't any experience, but it is pointed out by others that this mast hinge is not a tabernacle which has a pin thru the center of the mast section. The hinge requires that, when beginning to lower, the top shrouds are to be loosened a little to 'get over the hump' that the offset hinge creates. I guess the loosening is just a little!

It does appear that lowering the mast singlehanded will be a rush, so to speak. [dang, I think I've said too much again.]

[willie]

Finally got the bilge empty of water, and looking around, found out why she sits so low in the rear. Here's a pic...

Yep, it's CONCRETE!
And i thought it was just the yamaha 9.9...
fun fun fun
I'm glad the old boy who did it is dead now.:eek:

[willie]

here's the photo. didn't work last time for some reason. op error most likely.:p
It starts just aft of the factory ballast, where you can see the 2x4 form going across at bottom of photo, back under the floor beam, to about 8'' from the rear end. Guess it must be a foot of so deep back there. Wonder what it weighs??? Should be a fun job getting it out.:confused:

[ebb]

Captain B,
That access hatch looks just like 338s.
I think what we're looking at is the 'encapsulated keel,' the top of the lead was substantially glassed over at the factory and runs downward under the sole aft from approx the mast bulkhead to where it drops into the sump under the companionway ladder. The drop is about 8" or so. The whole skinny portion of the inside of the keel aft to the rudder is empty in 338, but the narrow space has been made to slope toward the sump. Probably with a lot of roving and/or mat and resin after the hull was popped from the mold. Probably at the same time they glassed in the lead.

This gives the ruddershoe substantial meat to be attached to. Sometimes, as you have read here, it was done a bit sloppy, but it makes the repair fairly direct.

Keep the photos coming!

[Tony G]

Willie
Hey! What the.... I bet that was a surprise. I don't know the scientific approach to calculating the weight of your block but from busted concrete I've moved so far in my young life I'd bet you're carrying around another 80#. Quick, before it gets above freezing, drill a bunch of holes in the block and pour water in there. The freezing action will bust it into managable chunks like my sidewalks:D Seriously though, I don't know what the adhesion factor is for concrete to fiberglass. My guess is you're going to sacrifice a little fg skin to get that out of there. Just on the off-were you planning on removing the cabin sole anyway? My money is on the impact drill and cold chisle, but don't worry, you should get alot of advice from this forum crowd. Beside the mid-winter lulls we just went throug this is one of the most active forums I've been in. Best of luck, Tony G

[willie]

Skipper Ebb, and Tony G. now-- and all others--
Thought this would help the mid winter blues--at my expense!!

Yeah, I wish it was the encapsulated lead. The photo isn't the greatest. If you look again, you can just see the eye bolt sticking up in the bottom of photo for the factory encapsulation, then on aft a little is 2x4 concrete form, the poured in readymix goes about 3 feet on toward the sump, where you can see a plywood form/dam going across, it's about a foot deep there, leaving a little sump area for the bilge pump. There was another bunch of lead pigs in there, you can see them sitting on the side.
The photo is looking under the companionway, all the way to the back under cockpit. Don't think there was any factory ballast there! It's definately an add on by someone who had misguided ideas. Must not have liked sailing on their ear! I'll bet she really performed well! I've always heard you should hire a professional surveyor when purchasing a boat. Maybe there's something to it! Wonder if they'd have found the concrete???Here's another shot, since you asked for more photos. Note the cassette tape by the lead--"Best of Patsy Cline". Hey, I've been trying to think up a name for her...:p


Well, I can tell by the way this one came out some cleaning up is in order today. Sorry. But if you look close you can see the plywood form/dam, just across from the top of "Patsy Cline" tape.
On up from there is the aft sump, about 6'' from concrete to aft end of keel inside. The concrete is over a foot deep back here. About 4'' deep on the fwd. end. About 3 feet long overall. Oh my goodness...

I tried prying up the fwd end, and it actually moved a little!! I'm still trying to come up with how to get it out. There is a cross beam in the way... maybe drilling and water would do the trick!!

[ebb]

A TV spot recently showed us how a suped-up Depression era moonshine Ford could carry a 1/2 ton of hootch in the trunk without lowering the fenders over the rear wheels. Maybe you have a nautical version of a smuggler there. Putting all the added weight under the cockpit means there HAS to have been an equal weight up forward. To the casual observor the extra high waterline would appear normal when the boat was loaded for the run.

On that depressing readymix note, I remember on the net a guy had to have access to his bilge (can't remember if it was for ballast or tanks) so he cut a hugh hole out of one side of his bottom. His reasoning seemed sound, but I bet he had a good time remaking the underside of his boat again!

If you did the dirty neat enuf, you'ld epoxy the original panel right back on again, no proplema,

[willie]

I'm almost afraid of what I'll find next.
Here's some better pics. Did a little scrubbing. Jeez what a mess.
Thinking I shouldn't be telling all that's wrong, might decide I want to sell her someday!:mad:

[willie]

You can see the aft plywood form/dam in the top of photo. Bilge pump sitting just aft of it, you can't see it but it's there. follow the hose.
There are two factory lifting eyes, one just fwd of concrete, other more fwd. under other cutout. One more, then it's to the thinking chair. Or was it drinking chair...

[willie]

and one from up fwd. just for the hellof it.
Any other ideas for removal, other than Ebb's last resort? ha! that's a good one.
The dark spot in fwd cut out is the fwd. most eye for factory ballast. The concrete starts back at the aft cutout, under the cross beam, floor.

[ebb]

Had a talk with Pedro here on the estate where we work. He suggested a method you might try.

You drill holes strate down into the stone 4" apart Then in each hole - which would probably be in line with a chunk you want to break loose - you place feathers and wedges. The feathers are (3" long, about 1/2" wide) 1/2 rounds of hardened steel that are bent at the top. If you held two feathers flat to flat you'ld have a 'Y'. You put these in the hole and then the wedge. You line up feathers and wedges in each hole that you drilled to a line of the crack you want to make and tap LIGHTLY with a hammer until the piece breaks.

Pedro says you can crack concrete 3 feet deep and 20 feet long with this tool!!! Sound familiar? This is an ancient method of getting blocks from a quarry. [The oldest method was probably to cut a groove, put in chips of burnt limestone and add water. 20X expansion.]

He then suggested you could lift pieces out with an expansion bolt in a suitable hole with a post tool or a come-along. You just have to dislodge it out of the form, so to speak. Rubber hammer on the hull outside??

Bosch hammer drill and proper sized bits for the proper sized hole. Local concrete purveyors might have the feathers and wedges but there is a catalog by BONTOOL:
www.bontool,com
they call it Bon Stone Splitting wedge, comes as a 3 pc set (11-847-B6, $7.25) You'll need, what, 4 sets? You'll have to drill a 5/8" hole - that and the hammer-drill is a lotta height. You can maybe shorten the bit or find a short one.

This is a "clean and quiet" method says Pedro (no banging with chisels and big hammers, or jack hammers either.

Any more questions he'll be happy to help out.

What do you think?

[willie]

Actually I was contemplating a couple sticks of ditching powder. Have some extra from blowing out some water holes last fall.:p

Your method sounds a little less painful to the old girl. Man, I'm still shaking my head.

I think there's room to get at the aft portion with drill, and maybe get enough chunks to get it out. However, I think there may be a couple rods that run through it fore and aft, as there's two nuts on the face of the 2x4. Would make sense to hold the form together. so that may present a problem. Back to the ditching powder? ha.
I have a big chain fall set up behind the boat, used to lift my 3000gal. tank on and off the freightliner, so it ought to work if I can get her backed in under it. Would work good for getting the outboard out too. Anyway, I'd like to do it without removing the cabin sole, it's in pretty good shape.

And I was able to lift the front edge with a pry bar, so it's movable. I'll bet it's close to 200 lbs. Will have to weigh it when it gets extracted.
Thanks for the help.

[ebb]

How about destroying the 2X4 'frame' exposing the rebar or allthread, whatever. Put a strongback across the seats or from the hatch opening and attach a come-along to the rebar. Lift first to see if there are no fastenings buried that were driven into the lead. That jerk wouldn't have been that smart. Lift and try to drag it aft. . It should loosen immediately, You may have to sacrifice a piece of the sole, or all of it, but essentially it's just a piece of plywood with a piece of 1/4" teak veneered plywood over. No framing, Just slathering.

[Tony G]

Willie
From the pics you posted I don't know how you'd get it out without; 1)removing part of the the sole or B)busting the concrete into velveta box sized chunks. (Spam can sized chunks naturally would work also) This one is a real b!#@%. Feathers and wedges would work if you had access to the top. If you could lift it even 1/2" and slide some ply scraps or absorbing shims of some sort under it you could even buy a little freedom on the sides as it lifts out of the taper of the bilge. Sometimes its best to let things sit for a while and work on another boat project until it hits you or just drives you mad:D 200 pound! Must be alot bigger than I thought. Tony G

[ebb]

someone correct me if I'm wrong. The area in question with willie's conumdrum has the step up where the ladder is and the cabin sole.

Except for the riser you have two pieces of plywood that were merely pasted in with saturated matt when the boat was assembled. Thats all there is. If there's a diesel or an A bomb there will be the engine logs and engine gear. But all you have to remove is the two pieces of original plywood decking. That is what is original, the rest is added by the DFO. (Dreaded Former Owner)

That can be easily done with a Dremel tool and a carbide grit blade. And a yellow-handle chisel. Tedious, dusty, but you can cut the pieces out so that you can tab them right back in again. That will clear the way to lifting the concrete right out.

The 1/4" teak veneer ply in 338 was glued to the 3/4" sole with black rubber mastic. It was not easy to remove. But you need to remove it (completely or in a two inch strip around the edge) to access the tabbing that holds the deck in place. Like all ply in the boat it is attached 'dry' to the hull. That is, the unsealed ply is laid in place and tabbed on one side only. Usually the top side. Spanning the gap of the square cut ply and the angled hull. Sometimes the frp is pretty thick but once you cut it the piece is free.

The cabin sole in 338 went under the step up at the doorway to the V-berth. Once you take the 1/4" stuff off you'll see it goes under an inch or too. I would just ignore it as a problem and cut the deck anywhere back of that where convenient. The 3/4" is plenty strong in so narrow a span to just fit it back with some goop in the join. (When your new teak and holly sole goes down, you'll never know!) Of course you could cut the sole between the two access hatches.

When 338 first got me, it took me awhile to get over the sacrosanc feeling that I was disturbing an antique and a great designer's temple. The interior of 338 was slapped together in a business-like way quick and dirty - I finally realized that anything I did was going to be an upgrade or an enhancement!

Getting that stupid concrete out is a VAST improvement.
Use the setee tops as a datum point for measurements to get the sole back in place. 338 is not waterline level where I'm sitting in the yard, so I've assumed the seats are level and taken all measurements and levels from them. Assume is the mother of all foulups.:D


Doctor, scalpel please...

[marymandara]

...and by all means, hurry!
Poor. #350. I ate a whole brick of cheese once and know how she must feel :eek:

[willie]

Hey, the Skipper Jr. pointed out a problem he has with his boat this morning. So we're running late on 350. Thought you guys might be able to help. I told him sand it down, then epoxy barrier coat. Wadda ya think?:D

[marymandara]

You know, Ebb-ster does have a point. That pic I have from Milton Thresher with the boat at mooring? She's awful high in the bow, lots of bottom paint showing.

This same boat was for sale by some old man years ago and a friend of mine gave it the cursory survey at that time for a girl he was...well, for a gal who was interested in buying it. Anyway, I don't think Fitz would have missed the cement. I guess he could have, but he's pretty sharp on that.

This is a curious situation. Also, for those who do not know, Friday Harbor is a US Customs port of entry. Real close to the US-Canadian border...and for those who might not know, my neighbors to the north have a rather renouned agricultural product which is produced for export.

What's she smell like up under the v-berth, Willie?:rolleyes:

[willie]

JEEZ DAVE,

I haven't dug around much in that end yet!! Other than the bag of anchor chain, don't know. There's still a water tank in there, but the deck fill ain't hooked up. No hose. Now I'm curious. Maybe you ought to head that Honda south and we'll have a look! Throw an Ariel party!

Oh, bring the sawzall.

[marymandara]

I'm thinking that just on the off chance that Ebb and I might both be at least partially correct, and since 350 has no name, we should encourage him to name her MARY JANE. Show of hands?:D

[willie]

Jr. and I put in a good day removing the tumor. I think it's a record. :p

[willie]

Didn't even tear up too much in the process. Here it is going out the door.

[willie]

Just high enough to clear the rail while I pull the trailer ahead. Jr.'s turning into a pretty good little photographer.
Sure glad mom wasn't around!

[willie]

Wow dad! It's bigger n me!

[willie]

I thought maybe 200 lbs., the scales go to 300, and it went past and stopped. I'd say 350, plus the other 100+ in lead pigs. Maybe we can show off the sexy world class stern now.

[Bill]

Really amazing! Must be a "believe it or not" here :)

[Jim Wiles]

Bill,
I am absolutely in awe of your enthusiasm, your spirit, your damn hard work to get this fine boat back to where it should be! What kind of bum would do this kind of thing to another sailor? I could not believe it when I saw the pics. with the floorboards out, almost flush beneath the boards, where I have lots of space, you had a tummy full!
You are to be commended for your efforts and I truly hope everything works out, (and I know it will), because you deserve a really fine sail on a great afternoon with your family! Tell your son that I think he is great and he really reminds me of our son at the same age!
I really wish that a number of us Ariel sailors lived closer to you to where we could give you a hand!

Fair winds,
Jim

[marymandara]

...and some of us wish we lived closer so we could "help" clean out the chain locker!;)

[ebb]

As Bill says, that tumor should be in Rippleby's Believe It Or Knot. Or the Guinness Book of Beer. Here's to the canpaign!

Are you sure it's concrete? Looks like it could be a hugely encrusted battery group. An antique solidstate no maintenance agm.

If 350 did indeed pull some time as a mule, I would wager that it warn't with Bobo Bush or Mary Warner. And too funky an operation for Mama Coca. The DFO, when he had his mojo crossing the northern border, was packing sailbags of fags. Nespa?

If you were going to honor a lady's shady past and play on words - faluca is egyptian for sailboat, I'd suggest, Fayuca, has a fine real time story attached to it, but I believe it means contraband en espanole. Has a distinct bawdy quality You will perform a CSI in the forepeak with a handheld vacuum and a new bag - see what sucks up? :cool:

[willie]

I think there are some lead chunks in the concrete also. Way too heavy to just be cement. Maybe a big chunk of lead they put in to make up for no inboard? Then someone poured cement over it. Why? Who knows. Maybe he had a fat wife on the bow he had to counterweight. I'm just glad it's out, with very little damage to anything. Now I need some ideas on what to do under the cockpit. As you've seen, there's no galley, other than little sink where the hanging locker was. And really, for day sailing/weekending, don't need much other than maybe a bar-bee on the rail. Don't really know. New territory. I'm just a country bumpkin. Tully Mars is my hero.
I'm excited to get her back in the water and see how she looks.
And as for names glorifying a shady past, I'd rather not. Think I'll just let the kids have a vote. Afterall, they're really the reason.:p

[willie]

Took the vacuum to her today. When the water and crap cleared out. guess what? More %^%#@# LEAD!!! I estimate 70-80 lbs. more, in the very bottom in the sump. Got it out, now my question is, any chance it was supposed to be there? I think she's back the way she was intended now, but man. That's over 500 lbs in the stern now removed. Haven't made it up fwd. yet Ebb. Maybe tomorrow, if I can find a crane to hoist me out of bed.

Here's a little photo of the fun today:rolleyes:

[willie]

Maybe I better holler for Jr. to help get it out.
More cleaning. nice stuff down there. Nice sump too--finally!
Anyone need some extra lead???:p

[Bill]

The two lead pigs in #76 were trapezoidal in shape. Not rectangle. The lifting rings were iron (might have originally been galvanized). Total weight added by Pearson was 200 lbs, but the pigs were not necessarily of equal weight. Just small enough to be R&R’d through the middle or aft opening in the sole.

In the early years, some skippers added more lead to the boat. In some cases, this was to fudge a rule by glassing in extra lead just aft of the marine head (160 pounds in #76) to change the water line. Interestingly, this added weight makes the boat more stable, but does adversely affect boat speed versus Ariels without the added weight.

[willie]

All of it so far has been under the cockpit. I don't see anything up under the sole fwd., other than the two lifting rings for encapsulated factory chunk. What, the specs. say 2300 lbs? I would think that would do it. I hate to think of what would have happened out in the blue in a roll over. This added 500 lbs. would have really caused some damage.It was just put in the bilge, and some cement poured over it, almost up to the aft lifting ring, up to a couple inches under the sole. She sure has a bilge now!! And I'm sure will sail like a dream. :cool:

[mrgnstrn]

Ariel #3 has a pair of lead pigs just behind the glassed-in ballast.
I have often though about taking them out, since I rarely have the water tank full, and it would sure be nice to have the boat sit closer to her Design W.L.

Willie: is that a lag screw in the lead pig? it is so shiny, it must have been put in by you for the purpose of taking out the pig. what size lag screw/eye bolt did you use? and did you put the bolt into the top or the side? (i.e. which end is the top in your picture?)

[willie]

KM-

Yes, I put in the lag eye for something to get ahold of. (In the top)It's just what I found laying around out in the shop. You could use about anything. Lead is pretty easy to drill into, in fact the bit really grabs ahold and wants to go in pretty deep. Once the chunk is up out of the sump it's no problem, but it's hard to get ahold of down in the hole, standing on yer head, with a bum shoulder too!
Now that I have a bilge, guess I better get to cleaning, then do an epoxy barrier coat. I drilled holes so the ballast cavity could drain also, and will be adding some resin in there.

[Jim Wiles]

Bill,
Real happy that you got all of the excess stuff out finally!

Did any water run after you drilled the holes? Just curious.

Jim

[willie]

Jim,
Yes, I'd say about a gallon of blackish water from the ballast void.
Maybe more over time. She's still draining a little.

[Jim Wiles]

Bill,
I suspected you would get a little water out; Did you take any shots of the drilling locations? That would be great to see sometime if you did.
Thanks, Jim

[willie]

Thought i'd post a couple shots of the next project.:mad:

[willie]

here's a dry fit of the shoe, showing how much is missing.

[willie]

this ones a little better angle, without the shoe. open to ideas. don't think there's a quick fix for it though. :confused:

[willie]

and here's one that has me wondering what to do also. Rudder has glass over it on the top half, only paint on the lower half, which is about all peeled and sanded off now. Do i strip it all, reglass? gonna be in the Columbia for a few years, fresh water. Then who knows. Wood looks good.

[Tony G]

Bill
Holey cats look at all that GREEN grass! It's only 21 degrees here this morning! Bill, it ain't that bad-just time consuming. It's going to take some time with a grinder and having a laminate(glass)roller will help.
How much experience with fiberglass do you have allready? This one looks like an exercise in build it up and grind it down. Actually, the order is grind it down, build it up, and grind it down, up, down, up, down repeated until it fits properly. This is a pretty important part of the boat so don't rush it. Also, this is only my opinion based on what I've seen and read so far. You have all of the parts there and they can only go together one way so allignment and registration will be easy. Working with all of that crap in your way will be frustrating but I think that's an important and therapeutic component of fiberglass boat restoration. It looks like the leading edge of where the shoe ties into the keel is prettymuch all there so I'd keep most of the work above and aft of that point. This will help make allignment easier. The rudder may have to come out of the way depending on how much room you need (but you knew that already-see, piece of cake). Smooth or round over all of the 'hard' edges in the nasty area first then start grinding out from the shoe area working up and forward. Grind a nice long smooth taper into the good glass working out from the repair area about a foot to a foot and one half. The idea here is to give the new resin and glass something to bond and tie into and not protrude very far , if at all, beyond the keel's sweet lines. Sand off all the paint a good 6-8inches beyond this. Clean the area with appropriate cleaner before you start laying glass every time-you really want this layup to stay in place. Then start building up the bottom area that is missing. I'm old fashioned so I use roving and matt(epoxy compatable) but x-matt is wonderful stuff I hear. For this area I'd personally avoid making a plug of epoxy. Instead I'd try to keep alot of oriented strand fibers in there so it won't become brittle and the patch ties together as much as posssible thereby avoiding the situation led to this whole event. Some of the first layers will have to be, essentially, a wetted out, skinny pad of alternating layers of heavy roving and matt just to give some 'build-up' in the area. As soon as possible, though, start extending each successive layer up and onto the taper you ground into the fiberglass surrounding the repair area. Take the time to make paper patterns for the fabric as it really does help. Also, as the pieces become larger, I like to wet-out 2 or 3 layers simultaneously while they're stacked together on a bench or other work surface. That way I'm sure each piece has that 1/2" to 3/4" overlap I'm looking for. This is where that glass roller really comes in handy-I don't know how you would do it with just a squeege. You'll only be able to do 3-4 layers at a time because of weight and as the repair builds, check it with the shoe to find out when you need to start grinding. That's really when it become fulfilling :D The last one or two layers to go on should be lighter weight fabric and extend to the edge of your grind-out. When that huge void is finally filled and the layers of fiberglass are sufficiently tied into the skin of the keel above then start fairing, and fairing, and fairing...There'll be alot of grinding and shaping I suspect. When you think you've got it 'paint' on a layer or two of epoxy to seal any exposed fibers and Shazam!! Two or three months of your life will have passed by. At least that's the way it works around here. I hope this little bit helps you out. Any Q's you know you just have to ask tis board!!! Tony G

[ebb]

Great shots there, Bill
The photo without the fitting is close to what 338 had. Yours looks worse! Ha! If you don't have a good feeling about embedding lags, that's understandable. 338 had more open space there, so there was room for that option, which you could create when you clean up the area and more comes off - if it does.

No matter what, whatever you leave has to be sound, no loose chunks partly held in place. Just from the photos, now, I'ld be thinking of grinding back the gelcoat and paint for the 'wrap' option. (That's because it doesn't sound like you are comfortable with the holding power of the lags.) I don't think the 'wrap' fix is as radical as it may look, from all my verbiage. You can play around with the matt dry befor you commit to epoxying. You know, to see if the shoe is going to fit good. Some faith.

Taking the matt up the sides 12 - 15" or so, at least with one layer, is IMCO the correct way to go. That way you will tie the shoe to the keel, know it won't drop off. I saw an Ariel at the yard once whose shoe was corroded away. The rudder was literally hanging on its gudgeon strap. Next time I looked the boat was back in the briney. Some faith!

Drilled 3 1/2" holes, 1 1/2" deep, into the narrow keel area and got only green/white tailings. On 338, anyway, there is NO foam in the lower part of the keel (under where the propeller shaft would exit.)


Capt Tony like it dry.
ole ebb, he likes it wet!
Leaving the rudder IN PLACE, if you can immobilize it and have it up in its working position....that would make it easy to get the shoe right where you want it while you work on the area.

[willie]

I have NO experience doing glass work. Won't learn any younger though! How warm does it need to be at night? Down to 25 lately, don't let the green grass fool you Tony!

I think I can handle it with all the input here. Looking at doing some mods to the trailer first to make more room in that area first.
Might be warmer by the time i'm ready to tackle it.

This is my first real sailboat, so have lots to learn. :D

Another couple questions--
pulled out the seawater intake thru-hull when removing the concrete ballast, what do you seal it with when replacing it?? 5200? Have a big tube of it, but it says i have to use it all in 24 hrs!! Hate to waste it all. Will it keep someway??

Also need a couple new windows. Any input there? Other than the outfit in the owners manual?

What is the light blue paint on my boat? ha! It's pretty soft actually, interesting seeing what's under it all. Pretty nasty breathing the dust.

I have west system epoxy, no glass mat, xmat or any of that yet.
Best mail order source???? no roller yet either.

Thanks,

[Bill]

Hey Bill, watch out for that "blue paint. " It will be full of copper! Resperator required (not just a dust mask, in my opinion).

Windows are a big problem right now. We are hoping the current owner of the patterns will dontate them to a school in Bristol, RI, but the deal seems to be hung up. The company making the plastic "GO" windows is out of business and we have not found a replacement. :(

The guy restoring the unknown Ariel (see the Gallery forum) appears to have either restored his frames or had new frames cast. The latter option is a pretty expensive route to follow on a one-off basis.

One short term solution is to cut 3/16" clear plastic about a half an inch over the size of the window and then through bolt it to the opening with a good sealer. See a lot of Triton's with that fix.

[ebb]

Boss is right about the copper paint! West Marine, excuse the expression, has gallon buckets of some stuff called Peel Away (something likr that) that you slather on real thick, cover with an included-in-the-kit plastic/paper and come back tomorrow to peel it off. Was how I took 338's bottom off. I know it didn't take all that much testosterone to avoid getting my face and arms and lungs blue, but it sure was easier, and a lot more fun.

We'll probably get on another thread with this: 338 is about to get her frames back from the powder coaters. There are lots of colors, most colors are custom and expensive, but the most common 'house' coating is aluminum colored polyester. And from no-name's restoration photos it looks like exactly what I'll be expecting. All so smooith and pumped. I've run into and used an aluminum filler materrial called LabMetal. Comes in two flavors: one good to 400 degrees, t'other 1000 degrees (at which time any aluminum will vaporize!) Anyway, I repaired some DFO holes in the frames, and filled out some corrosion in the opening ports with the stuff. We shall see: this week!


By the way, when you look into PeelAway and decide to use it for your whole bottom, order it from an independant paint dealer. Do not buy the marine $$ version. It'll be a much better price, and I ended up using 10 gallons, with some left over. You'll need more than you figured. Put it on twice in some places - and it likes it warmer, does less when colder. depends on how much you have to remove. You need more of the paper than they put in the top of the bucket, maybe you can order extra. Didn't do anything to the gelcoat, and probably will work if you have an epoxy barrior coat, but I'ld ask. It contains no methyl cloride. You end up with a mess of stuff for the landfill, but IMCO it is relatively benign. Except for the dang copper.

WAY back Mike pointed out, and others, that some Ariels had blue gelcoat on the exterior. If you are going to keep the strainer, it is something you may want to take off again - use polysulphide NOT 5200.
Take a look at your thru hulls and the seacocks. It's 'traditional' when refitting to replace at least the thru hulls. Make sure the seacock is VERY happy.

[mrgnstrn]

When I stripped #3, i used the peel away, too. and ran out of paper.
Wax paper does an OK job.
Freezer paper does a better job.
In my experience, the paper is only there to keep the goop from drying out while it softens up the paint. Otherwise the goop dries into a substance almost as hard as the paint itself.
And "Peel away" is a total misnomer. The paint does not come off with the paper.
The way I did it, I put on the stuff, covered it with wax/freezer paper, waited 24 hours and came back with scrapers the next day.
When Peel Away works, it turns the paint into a goo, about the consitency of snot.
You basically peel the paper off (by itself) then scrape off the paint onto the ground (so put down some cheap plastic sheeting first.)
Easy, but messy.
I tried to scrape the paint off as I peeled and keep it all on the special paper, but what a hassle and not efficient. Just rip the paper off, toss it on the ground and start scraping. The gooey paint comes off really easy.

Now for the secret hint: have a hose and stiff brush ready.
*If* the paint you are removing is any kind of ablative (copolymer also), it become *EXTRA* soluble with Peel Away, so spray to moisten, brush and spray off the residue.
You will be amazed at how it much more residue you get off.
But this only works as long as the surface hasn't dried out from the scraping part. So I would peel off a managable section (~5 sqare feet), scrape it, then hit that part with hose and brush.
When I was happy, then I would uncover another section, trying to always work with a "wet" or "Moist" surface.

Hey, nobody said it was totally envirnmentally friendly, but you are probably only putting as much cuperous-oxide on the ground as would wash off with the rain anyway. So I rationalized that it was earth-neutral ;)

[willie]

Here's some pics of todays work. Decided easiest way to get room back there was move the boat 2' back! Kids, don't try this at home. Actually worked ok with some farmer ingenuity. :rolleyes:

and the transom is the weakest part? i disagree! (tractor was picking up front. Ha)

[willie]

rudder removed! lots of room to work now.

[willie]

Found the ones i want ya all to see-- all the way up to where the prop cut out for an inboard (filled in on 350) it appears that the last 2-3" is just added on. I can see clear through it in a couple places! This is under the gel coat. Guess there really isn't much going on up high, filling the gap 'tween rudder shaft and the mold--except down where the shoe attaches! Gonna tie it all together when it warms up some more.

[willie]

think i've found the nastiest job there is. grinding fiberglass, copper paint...

see how it's different? maybe this is the illusive foam???

[willie]

other side.

[willie]

that last one she was still a little wet, thus the different spots of color. The addition is pinkish. Any thoughts? You can see where the glass just wraps around, then the gap filled with gobble de gook/who knows what, and faired. Wa la, 350's done. Next!

[ebb]

IMCO Pearson had a heel of a time - and the guys just didn't get their broomstick handles deep enough into the mold - when laying up. When mixing polyester just a tiny bit of catalyst will cause the resin to kick too early if you're working too thick like in the 'trailing edge' and down in the heel.

338 had the same missing piece, except it was still in there when the shoe came off. DFO had your shoe off at one time and just didn't refill it. DFO in my case didn't want to disturb anything and put it right back but drilled new holes thru the side of the shoe, causing more problems inside, and making it even weaker.

I don't know if it is clear anywhere here but I had to REBUILD the whole trailing edge in front of the rudder. That's because I obviously don't want to go sailing. I keep telling myself that the Ariels did just fine befor I came along.

I stand by the 'wrap around' fix suggested. I'ld put the wrap more straight up over the heel, dieectly over the wound.

It's hard to believe that Pearson would market a hull that had that much REPAIR to the trailing edge. My guess is that it came from the factory that way. [338, also had a abalone sized chunk come off the bottom of the keel in the middle where the laminations were not pressed down in good enough - the factory repaired it with a primitive form of bondo - knew it was the factory because you could see the roving going across undamaged.] The traling edge is not doing that much work, except at the heel and the gudgeon. I would make sure it's all tight, take the dremel and clean out the cavities and fill. Dental work.

Don't sweat the epoxy work, if at first you don't succeed. grind it off!
West System has produced enough words about their products and methods to support their epoxy. You might as well go with them. Heed their cautions. Remember - portugese farmers from the Azores built your Ariel!!! Look, if ANYTHING is not clear, just ask, my eyes glaze over at any block of writing too. We're just trying to make it easy, not really to influence you. You'll be the expert when you're washing the glass fibers out of your arms!

"I have not failed, I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."" Edison.

:D

[willie]

You crack me up Ebb! :)
Hey, at least i know it's just not my boat now!!
And i'm in 100% agreement with you on all accts.
I was thinking about doing a massive rebuild back there, but when you think about it, it's just filling space. Not much stress except at the bottom. And the strap if that fails. And it's been this way since 1964. I think a little glass and epoxy or poly resin over it will be fine.

So can i assume it's all poly? Dave says i can put poly or epox over poly, but not poly over epox.

Thanks for the help!:D

[ebb]

Capt Bill,
NO poly, Use only epoxy!
Even yer granma gonna tell you that.
It is much funner to use and your repair
will last another lifetime!

[willie]

Thought i'd post a couple shots of some boat work. Jr took this one. Don't ask what i'm doing. Had extra 5200....

[willie]

here it is troweled out. probably nuts, but thought after a couple coats of varnish sealer, it might work to seal 'er up. gonna be in fresh water. had the seams between planks, so thought 5200 would work for filler. It actually came out pretty good. so will paint stick to it??

[willie]

here's my first battle with epoxy, ever. helps to read the book.
i was lucky and had one good hole for alignment.
wrapped woven roving mat down in shoe, up sides, filled with mish mash of biaxial cloth, wetted it all slapped on the shoe. had enough room on sides to fill good with epoxy. then got out the silica, and made some peanut butter. i think it turned out pretty good for a farmer. but i did read the book, followed to the letter. west sys. puts out enough info. so i can be dangerous. don't think this baby is going any where now. :p

[willie]

yeah, it's a farmer job. probably should have ground off more paint, but it'll smooth out eventually. got tired grinding.

so how do i drill holes that come out the other side where they're supposed to with a hand drill???? ebb? anyone? work in from both sides, meet in the middle? why is Nothing on a boat square?
heeheehee

[Tony G]

Bill
Outstanding! I've always admired people who throw caution to the wind and start at the top:D Most people start with small insignificant projects just to get a 'feel' for the medium. Way to show them. The new-uh, wouldn't it be a foot if it goes into a shoe?-looks great. I bet it's as strong as it ever was. Hey, whose got time for playing around...we're aging faster with our boats out of the water than in. Thanks for posting pictures, Tony G

[ebb]

Right ON Capt Fossil.

Have we ever seen a rubber covered rudder befor???
Now THERE is stepping out into the expanding unknown! Whatza matter with that?...looks great.

If you want to harden it up, don't know that you NEED to, Maybe some of this underwater high-build epoxy primer would firm it up. At least so you'ld have something to sand down to when you renewed your bottom at its first haulout (2005...2006...2007???)

Otherwise, I, for one, would really like to know how well it lives underwater as a coating.


Looks to me, sitting down here in the Bay Area, that your fix of Pearson's Fontanel is A-! Perfect. That little ole shoe got a whole yard of good stuff to hang on to Now! Professor, when you publish your paper on your method remember to post what journal has it!

I have a single 6 foot 1/8" thick 1 1/2" wide aluminum batten from the hardware store that is great for fairing. Lay it flat on the boat and take you reading as to what has to be build up or taken off, never fails.

I've also gotten to really like West Systems 407 fairing compound. I understand but do not know from experience that it is ok to use uinder water. It works great with my personal laminating epoxy as a fairing compound and makes fairing by longboarding very professional. I have used it to fair the area you are working on.

Faired 338 in the same keel area with a 1/4" ply board 18" long and 3" wide. 3" is the belt material I use. I use 36 grit all the time. I put two 3" pieces of 1 inch or 1 1/4" clothes-pole near each end of the ply piece, screwing directly thrru the center of the dowels thru the bottom of the ply strip with a single Grabber. Actually thru the dowels into the handle, the screws are loose in the the short pieces. The handle cinches tight to the base. I use a simular, if not the same dowell as a handle suspended over the cross dowels. First creating coves where one dowell meets tother, usually in the small ones - and the handle is secure - while the ply piece can pivot slightly where the dowels are spiked to the plywood.

This is a stiff longboard, but it works good down on the straight runs of the keel. I use it also for fairing the more rounded areas of the hull. You can l;et it float over the work by holding it at the center, or bear down at the ends to remove material.

Double sided carpet tape keeps the sanding belt material on good enough to allow easy replacement. Which you oughta do as soon as it looses its sharp. The carpet tape should have the cloth interior (3M?) so you have something to grab on to when you strip it off the plywood. It'll take wood off too! But by then you merely replace the ply and the screws anyway. Piece of cake.

Happy it came out so well. Hosanna! Ave Maria

[willie]

thanks for the votes of confidence. I have to say i really wasn't expecting it to be so rubberey--guess that's a word. kinda having second thoughts now. But guess we'll see. don't really think it will come off without a fight!

I don't know what this boat has been through in her life, but sighting down the keel there's several wowies, ins and outies, that aren't in the set of line drawings. of course they're pretty small scale, and the wowies are too. I'm thinking it's been that way for awhile..... and i'd like to get her sailing this summer. maybe. may be pushing things too. have a new shoe on the way, so we'll see.

so on this gel coat thing--
from what i've seen, i have the glass, then a greenish, gray layer that i assume is the gel coat, then red, then black, then the light blue nasty stuff, then black again. did i miss something? anyway, just wondering about the best way to get it up even, at least with the gel coat. brush on epoxy layers? it's built up today pretty fair with the old glass. just what is gel coat made out of? from what i see it's pretty thick. told ya i was new at this!:cool:

[ebb]

Sure, drill in from both sides, right? You know where the holes go in and out. They don't meet so good in the middle, sticking a bit in there will take charge so whatch it! If you drill the pin holes with the shoe not permanently on, you can 'straighten' them out with a larger bit with the shoe off. A pin will not drive thru a crooked hole, it'll butt up against the inside of the fitting. If you are a 5200 fan, a little space is ok.

I should have not put in all pins on 338 but put in one bolt - maybe squared one hole for a carriage bolt so a nut could be used for a grounding wire from a zinc. Sometimes you can find 'jam nuts', or grind the nut down so it doesn't stick out so much.

Don't know what I'm going to do. Did argue once that if all underwater metals were the same on a boat you didn't need to zinc. But parked in a marina things are not simplistic like that. So drilling and tapping a 1'4" machine screw into the shoe might be a solution. I like the smooth look of the all pin installation. If we have to spoil the hydrodynamics with zincs and fastenings then maybe they can be as small and round as possible.


[let me ask this:
The original bronze shoe on 338 was eaten away AND crusted with zinc on the same side as the zinc. The other side was ok. Who knows what different stages the shoe went thru over the decades! This made a big impression on me and at the time asked the cognoscente of corrosion if they knew what was going on. But there just are too many variables for a specific answer. But I'm wondering if there is any point in mounting two hockey-puck zincs on either side of the keel with separate wires to the shoe. Balance things. Must be over-reacting again!
Crazy??]

[willie]

I gave Ballenger's some business this morning, seeing as i won't have a crane available at the ramp. Anyone got any suggestions on mounting the hinged mast plate, how to remove the cast alum. and knock off the tenions....Ebb? It appears to be stuck pretty good, rivits are busted off... Did you thru bolt it down through the orgional wood base or what? I think it will make the mast much more manageable, and might even come in handy going under a bridge, if i can figure out something simple to hold it athwart ship. I thought the upper shrouds would remain tight, but no, due to the step being higher than the chainplates. So we're going to plan B. Or is it C now?! Anyway, looking at all the different ideas. Thanks for any leads and pointers...:rolleyes:

[ebb]

Only when I got mine off did I discover that it wasn't corroded on as bad as I thought. It is a very nice. very snug, well conceived fitting -that I couldn't budge. Probably, on hind sight, because I didn't drill out the rivets with a large enough bit. The mast extrusion sits on a ledge in the almag casting. I very carefully SAWZALLED thru the ledge just at the bottom of the mast. No big deal if you come in from all sides. But the aluminum is solid all the way through.

The new insert is in two parts held together with three large machine screws. The in part and the outer larger part that the mast sits on that is attached to the hinge. It was custom made* to make up for the height lost by retrofitting without the original mast pad. However, even tho the deck under the mast has been made solid (removed the balsa core between the mast and the coach roof and replaced with xmat), spreading the load is still a good idea, So you can add a little or take away a little (of the mast) to arrive at the designed height - and still have a pad - or not. If you could x-ray through the boat at the mast you would see just the foward part of the mast directly supported by the compression beam.

I haven't done my homework on this, really. Have a retro Bomar replacement for the old hatch (which is larger and closer to the mast) to miss when the mast is lowered. Not sure how low it will go when it gets to the Pulpit. Nobody has posted any photos of their lowering/raising rig. so we are on our own. Haven't taken the time yet to rig a test model.

Last time we went down to Santa Cruise, I toured the inner harbor where sailboats have to be able to lower and raise while on the run. The larger sailboats (up to, say, 30') didn't seem to have anything special for this. But I couldn't get close. The only obvious difference from normal was that the upper shrouds had a bending point rigged in at the height of the mast hinge on the cabin. One or two looked like the lower part from the hinge point down was solid, like an extra long turnbuckle, Couldn't get close enough to see. Stanchions on the rail may have been incorporated in the rigging of the 'hinge' part.

I have never seen one in use. On the net, usually it is smaller boats than Ariels that share their procedure, and like the trailer sailers, this is all done at the ramp.

Two things.., every mast I saw had the hinge type with the long ears and the mast foot rounded in the front. Every mast was lowered forward. Which must be obvious as the boom is used as the gin.

2nd... Bruce Bingham's "Sailor's Sketchbook" (International Marine, $15) has four pages therein on "single handed masting." This is my bible on the subject. He has sketched on page 36 a very interesting way to rig a "permanent upper-shroud pivot." It immobilizes the bending point with rigging and a triangle plate - looks very strong and shippy. It is worth the price of the book, which is full of good DIY stuff. He is a great illustrator. Clear and detailed. He's the guy with the little white cat usually in his drawings.

With the Ballenger hinge you must allow for partial slackening the upper shrouds (and unfastening/refastening of the aft lowers) because the knuckle is at the forward end of the mast. Not under the mast on the centerline in a deep slotted bracket. The mast is way more secure with the Ballenger design. Perhaps the deep eared one is great for partial 'masting' required for day sailing. A curved mast section in flat plates with a single through bolt (and but partially supported on its rounded bottom) is not strong enough for cruising IMCO. The mast rests completely solid with the flat one.

The slackening of the shrouds is a HUGE issue for me. I will more likely be singlehanding and not messing with the mast often - so we'll see what happens and what the heart stopping drill will be!!! I firmly believe a cruiser should be able to handle its own mast wherever it happens to be.:cool:

*taking a look at the fitting again - It's too heavy to be aluminum alloy. But it looks like aluminum. Must ask Ballenger what they supplied me.

[ebb]

Capt, Bill,
Forgot to add. The heel fitting is in two pieces, if I remember, like the one drawn in the Manual. 338's I can't remember, but the bottom was attached to the pad. The pad was spiked through the deck and into the beam with two 3" #16 bronxe screws. There was some minor balsa core deterioration, replaced it. Some of the exposed balsa looked ok, but seemed crumbly. I had the deck opened up because of the new hatch and just made it solid back to the nose of the coach roof - the width of the hatch cut out.

Also, if I remember correctly, the two screws that held to pad on went into the beam very close to the back edge. If I had it apart and were going to put everything back exactly where it was, I would add a couple more lag bolts.

338 has had a ten lam white oak replacement of the compression beam. It was put in like the original on the forward side of the bulkhead. I'm considering adding more bearing support on the salon side in the form of a thick piece of mahogany or teak. Kind of semi-disguised as trim. 338 has had all of the center portion of the compression bulkhead removed. so maybe it's paranoia on the skipper's part. The one piece deck molding with the coach roof right there is strong and non-moving. It is the deck just forward with all the force on it that compresses and flattens. The liner is the problem with adding solid support on the salon side........

[willie]

Ballenger says it's stainless steel, had to be for strength. So guess i have to isolate it from the alum. some way. Maybe just a coat of 5200 or something similar, as i've coated about everything else with it!

I'll sure be glad when this initiation of boat ownership is over, and i can take her sailing.l

[ebb]

Man, if this is initiation, I'm almost lost as to what I signed up fer!

If you talk with Buzz again ask him what the s.s heel fitting is covered with. As it has some kind of coating. It may be it already has an aluminum compatible coating. It is very smooth, like powder coating - which may be enuf separation. The mast sits snug but not tight on the fitting. I like the idea that any water in there will find its way out of the dead bottom, drain completely. {put a zerts fitting on the mast there to squirt in fresh water every once in a while!) Maybe a couple V-notches on the bottom of the mast will make it drain that much easier.

Because the mast will tip, the wires inside be taken out the side of the mast down near the step. Because of the hinge, and the hole thru the deck, the offset (and the loop of the wire bundle) will be considerable. If you discover a neat way to do this let us know.

We also have to consider a clever disconnect (Junction box?) for the wires down below. Something even more clever for the coaxial cable VHF. If I was going to have to take the mast down often for road travel then the junction box would be on deck. Everything would disconnect in the box. THAT would be very hard to do unless there is a specific WATERPROOF in/out box in the marketplace specifically made for this purpose. Wonder if Buzz has a cool suggestion?

[willie]

Wow. My hat's off to UPS. Just talked to Buzz yesterday afternoon, and the thing shows up today at noon! Maybe i could hitch a ride sometime! That's amazing, from Watsonwille CA to Fossil Ore in one day.

So, it does appear pretty shiney. Very nice though. I see i have to figure out holes and mounting to the boat. Still thinking on that.

I have corroded screws, no heads, holding the cast piece in the bottom of mast. I'm thinking the die grinder and cutting off about 1/2'' of the mast, in line with the screw holes, will be about the only way to remove the cast base. Then i'll be at the same height with the new hinge added!

As far as wires go, I'm not gonna have any if i can hang a lantern in the back stay if we anchor somewhere overnight. Will that work? And i took off the vhf cable, antenna arrangement. Now have a bigillion little screw holes up the mast. Thought i'd cut down on all the weight aloft possible. No windex either. Hurts my neck to look that high anyway. An antenna on the stern rail will be fine for the Columbia. Not planning on circumnavigating any time soon. Maybe we should just email, as we seem to be the only two idiots doing this. ha

Wasn't supposed to rain today, so decided to continue with epoxy work-in-progress. Guess what...
maybe it will let up. The creek's about high enough to launch 'er.

[willie]

Just got off the phone, the hinged mast base is electropolished. No coating. Just a chemical/electrical process that.....polishes.
Very nice. Said it should stay that way for years. But it needs to be isolated from the aluminum, with a plastic sheet, or rubber, or??

[mrgnstrn]

" plastic sheet, or rubber, or??...."
NEOPRENE.
The well stocked chandleries should have some sheets of it. A buddy of mine had to use it to protect his aluminum gas tanks from the small stainless steel staples that held the wiring to the bulkheads.
You should only need a small square and they sell it pretty thin (to reduce the squish when you bolt the two together.

[ebb]

Yeah, maybe fitting the mast on over thin film of neoprene is very good idea! If there is room for it. Brushing on a thin coating of 5200 and letting it harden seems like a solution too. I might consider putting it on the inside and bottom edge of the mast, leaving that heel fitting virgin.

Attaching the bottom part of the fitting to the hinge plate will take a little work and some nice fat machine screws of exactly the right length.
Let us hear what you come up with. Photos?


There's some kind of psychology involved in this exercise that I'm not aware of. The exchanges here on this forum are hugely important to me. The give and take and humor of personalities here is the breath and heart of our little boats. For all intents they are the text book for the A/C. You have to assume that the information and opinions here is useful and important to not only members but the guests who float thru here. To some it is necessary, as it has been for me, to visit, get edjucated (by Bill and Ed and Mike and Tim and Dave and Tony and Liz and Pete and Tom and Janice and Keith and Geoff and Carl) and steal good ideas. For the love of sailing.

Somebody, maybe six people, maybe sixty were turned on by your successful rebuild of Ave's keel. Same thing on the mast heel fittings, and tons of other stuff.

When my time comes to actually go sailing, which I've done precious little of, I'm going to need payback in the form of advice and patience when I beg the sailors for help. NOT KIDDING.


Maybe, just maybe, the huge amount of info here, the enthusiasm, will help save these boats from extinction. Keep them all sailing for the next 50 years!

[marymandara]

Another good insulator, possibly better than neoprene gasket material or 5200 in the sense that it is harder to "cut" or "squish" through with a sharp or narrow edge, is UHMW plastic. You can get it in a variety of thicknesses, from many inches to millimeters...it is stout stuff but can cut and/or machine with woodworking and/or metalworking tools.

Thin, self-adhesive UHMW is often available in the woodworking catalogs for use on saw fence surfaces and the like, or from an industrial plastics supplier like Laird Plastics in Seattle, Wa.

And Ebb---sailing a boat is about 100 times easier, certainly more intuitive, than rebuilding one! Plus...understanding that there is nearly nothing you cannot repair if you should happen to break or prang it...you will have much less stress in learning to handle the boat, as well!

Dave

[Jim Wiles]

Bill,
Does Ballenger have a web site?
Thanks, Jim

[willie]

Here's the link...

http://www.sfsailing.com/ballengerspars/

:cool:

[ebb]

As you may have noticed on the net, There are a bunch of enthusiastic Catalina owners, too! Take a look at

www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/mast-repair3.htm

[ebb]

The B hinge plate has 4 pre-drilled holes for machinescrews. The parts were separate again, one here, one down at the boat - my impression is that there isn't much leeway, but a little, to attach the heel to the plate.

[willie]

I'm working with Dave to get a new billet aluminum one machined. The one i have is a bit corroded, and missing a chunk where the hammer and chisel shouldn't have hit, but did. I think a solid chunk of aluminum, flat top and bottom, so we can bolt the hinge plate to it would be the way to go. Will be plenty of room for the pre-drilled holes to work. My head scratcher right now is how to attach it to the wooden step--lag screws , or thru-bolt to the inside. The wood is in pretty good shape, as is the deck under it, and support beam for what i can tell.
So what do you use on the ss bolts running through the aluminum? Buzz sent me some Lanocote, smells like a sheep! But supposed to be the best for corrosion and lubrication.

One thing nice about the boat--you get tired of sanding, there's always 6 or 10 other projects you can work on! Kinda like the ranch.

[willie]

Thought i'd post a couple just for fun. My daughter had a new baby this week.

Note the background. Old and factory waterline. There were several bootstripes between. Interesting sanding.

[willie]

And here i am. Wondering how far to take down the bottom...
most likely when i give out. Good shoulder therapy. I never realized how many overhead horizontal surfaces there were. Do now.
Note sealed up engine well.Almost have the curves right. we're going engineless. Well, i will have some 11' carlisle oars, if i can ever get time to do a serious search for a good deal. I want to show off the world-class stern.:cool:

[Tony G]

Willie,
How's this work-I buy a boat two years before you and you're already grinding for paint!!!

[willie]

Well, you probably been sailin' yers! Hee hee... I'm not doing a complete, total rebuild. My hat is off to you, and the other's (Ebb, and Dave with his Triton... I'm sure there are others too, just haven't read EVERYTHING!! Maybe next winter!
Maybe i just got lucky and got a boat that's still in decent shape. For a few more years anyway. One of these yrs., i'm sure i'll be remodeling. Right now i just want to get her in the water agin, and go SAILING!!!
I got her in Dec., and decided that while she's high and dry on the trailer.....
At the rate i'm goin thru stik-it pads, i think 3m would be a good stock to buy. They sure don't hold an edge long. Maybe i should go for the spendy ones.
Pulled out all the thru-hulls today. Some were vintage '65. Had to grind off a flange or two. Now i got 4 nice holes to fill. Gotta get her streamlined to be a real sailboat.
We're going with Herreshoff's cedar bucket.:rolleyes:

[Bill]

". . . We're going with Herreshoff's cedar bucket." Sounds too expensive. West Marine's small portable head fits perfectly, has ss tie down straps and costs less than cedar these days. :rolleyes:

[Michael]

A couple of years ago I had the pleasure of replacing the mast on my 30' boat. During the process needless to say a learned a bit. The gentleman that gave the advice and tec support was a rigger in the yard, had been a rigger for years. He suggested the I use a 20mm rubber insulating that is used for unsulating gas pipes that are under ground. Local hardware store has it. I used it to insulate the sail track from the mast, works great, and cheap.
On another thought the grease that smells like sheep is sheep grease. This rigger told me about it and he has been using it for 20+ years. Never had thing that he put it on seize. When I checked the shroud fitting when I had the mast down they were coated with that grease and had been that way for about 10 years. Came apart with easy, I regreased them and put it back on the new mast.
I thank you for the talk about the mast step. That is the first project for #75. She should be home next week. I am using a fellow sailors trailer.
michael

[willie]

AS PER TONY G REQUEST, HERE'S THE MONSTER WINCH PADS. TOO COLD FOR EPOXY YET THIS MORNING.

Should have washed off the paint dust--oh well. She'll be beautiful before long.

[willie]

a wide angle shot. I like the cleat set up, you can just jam the sheet 'tween it and the business end for a quick hold. fast and easy. Some friends on an Alberg 35 showed me that. Maybe everyone does it, what do i know. This is still new ground for me.

[willie]

another shot. if you want something specific, let me know. have camera....:cool:

[ebb]

anhydrous lanoline. Local independant pharmacy can special order a one pound jar for $15/$20. Brion Toss probably has a whole page dedicated to its wonders.

While you were talking there about tape, I thought you'ld be mentioning that stretchy self amalgamating stuff I've only heard about. Haven't used yet. Think that would work? The rigging stuff has a smooth outer surface. If you wrap the insert, it would be cool if the mast just slid on without catching or pulling on the insulator. Which might be the problem with rubber.

Maybe if you made a single or double wrap around the mast at the bottom there after the mast is in place and the holes drilled for the screws, you could locate the holes and poke the screws in thereby isolating the screws from the mast. Might work because of the stretchy nature of the tape.

Just an idea.

That rubber tape sounds good, The only pipe wrap I've used is a vinyl wrap for underground black iron gas. Too wide, too thin.

[marymandara]

Sounds too expensive. West Marine's small portable head fits perfectly, has ss tie down straps and costs less than cedar these days. :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]

...Or there's those Orange Plastic 5-Gallon buckets from Home Depot for 3.99 (they charge an extra 79 cents for the lid!)...or a 5-gallon green plastic bucket formemrly holding pickles from out behind your favorite fast-food restaurant...or...

Some people get seriously grossed-out about a bucket, personally I get seriously grossed-out about a porta-potty. And the inevitable odor that erupts when one slides open the flapper to "flush"...and the requisite stick that has to be kept around to poke things along on their way thru the hole...and the thrill of dumping it out...

A buddy of mine lives aboard his Albin-Vega 27 and has a bucket setup, bucket installs and easily removes from a bulkhead structure that has hinged top and positively restrains bucket as well as sealing air/water tight.

The goal, naturally, is to do all of one's significant business in the port heads and avoid using the bucket dockside, but as we all know sometimes nature's call comes urgently or what-have-you.

He started out buying those Home Depot buckets, and tried keeping it ready to use with water and holding tank "blue water stuff" (which, incidentally, is foul stuff in its' own right and nothing a person wants to breathe too often). Of course, he'd feel a bit self-conscious about dumping the bucket down the port throne, and always wound up doing so in the middle of the night.

Finally he got smart and started going to the housepainters' for empty 5-gallon paint buckets, which he keeps around for a few days and then (if use has occured) snaps the lid on and pops in the dumpster up top.

Another guy I know set up a bucket that contains the clumping-type 'kitty-goes-and-now-I'll-scoop-it' cat litter, which he says works quite well. I dunno, I dislike cat boxes when it is just my cat!

Some use a fitted bucket like my buddy's and if major business is needed dockside line it with a black plastic bag for containment and later disposal.

One of the concessions I got out of Mary (who had used a bucket before anyhow) when I abandoned the switch from Triton to Lecompte Medalist...was to use a bucket in the Triton. Two fewer holes in the boat, less weight, lower cost...and a real human-sized seat.

Best,
Dave

[Tony G]

Willie,
Thanks for the pics. Those puppies look like they're solid wood. Are they? We're hoping to gain a little more storage underway by having teeny little lockers under monster winch pads much like yours. Maybe drink holders or something...
:D Tony G

[dasein668]

Another guy I know set up a bucket that contains the clumping-type 'kitty-goes-and-now-I'll-scoop-it' cat litter, which he says works quite well. I dunno, I dislike cat boxes when it is just my cat!

Ha! If you are talking about "the guy" I think you're talking about I'll point out that NO ONE dared to use the... ahem... "Kitty Box" during a 5 day stint!

The theory is good.... but we all preferred the "Eat lots of Cheese and Pray" technique instead.:D

[ebb]

probably deserves its own fiber.

Lanolin has been around forever as a water displacing preservative for metal and leather. It seems to have resurfaced as the best anti-fouling for props. It sticks to props but nothing sticks to it.

Riggers, as Capt. Michael says, have been using it to keep salt water out of threads and probably out of rigging connections. The grease can be used on anchors, winches, shackles, sail-hanks.

There is a New Zealand company that sells it in various forms including spray. You can coat your boat trailer with it, your inboard engine (just reach in and spray everything in and out of sight!), your whole outboard motor, in and out. Use it on your blocks, all your electrical connections, battery terminals and switches. Keep your galley stove from rusting. Spray it on your anchor chain to keep it from rusting and castle-ing in the locker.

Coat your onboard tools with it (heat your tools first!) Your sail needles won't rust. It's great for your hands. It's NOT A PETROLIUM PRODUCT. No Dupont, no Dow. Nobody and nothing died to bring it to us! Better to smell like a wet sheep than a gas station!


You know something: sounds like it is just the ticket to use on the mast/heel connection and the screws.:D:cool:

[Michael]

I ordered the Sketchbook from Barns and Noble, got it yesterday. Nice way to start thinking. Was wondering if any one has used the hinged mast base that in not hinged but has the bolt through it. If so, did they cut the mast to drop easily? I have seen a few of them but do not remember how the base of the mast was rounded to help lower of it.

[Michael]

Capt. Willie where did you get the trailer and how do you like it?

[willie]

http://www.qualitytrailers.com/

I like it. Pulls nice. For $3k it is a good deal.:cool:

[ebb]

Capt Michael,
Hit the SEARCH bar, type in 'hinged mast,' and amongst others check out Scott Galloway's generous contribution on his mast lowering on the run procedure. His is a single bolt, in a non-sliding hole, with a rounded mast bottom. I was unable to fully appreciate his system from the photos. My reasons for selecting the Ballenger hinge are above in this group of posts.:)

Some mast bottoms are rounded more than others. Some incorporate the bolt in a curved slot - my guess is to reduce the amount of round needed and to cancel any rise in the mast as it goes off or comes up to vertical to be able to keep full tension on the upper shrouds. But it is very difficult to find images on the net. Google's 'images' bar is (so far) pretty useless. as it doesn't understand english pretty good.

maybe you find something good let us know?

[ebb]

You can find Ray Alsup's refreshing 'Rebovating Old Spar's for his Triton 'Pegasus' #256 on the Maintenance, Improvement & Restoration pages on the National Triton Association site....

where he relates his experience painting 256's mast and fitting a Ballenger hinge, w/ photos.:cool:

[ebb]

Yeah....well....I'll let you guys go back to the Triton site to find George's post in the Electrical Handy Hints section on Coax Seal. Which is a versatile, flexible, moldable plastic wrap that you can use to seal the thru deck fittings at the mast - coax and common ground. It sounds like a great product that, like George, you'll find other uses for.

One of its properties is, that while it WATERPROOFS what you have wrapped, you can take it apart and use it again. Seems pretty wild to me! Get it at Radio Shack.

Here's another site to go to for the clearest most spectacular DIY photos I've ever seen:

http://www.naval.com/coax-seal/

[Scott Galloway]

The masts on the two tabernacled boats that I have owned were modified the same way: A permanently fixed steel mast step, with two flanges (one on either side of the mast).

The bottom forward section of the mast is radiused, and a block of wood inserted inside the mast base is radiused to match. A single bolt runs through the mast and both of the port and starboard flanges. A bolt secures the nut. The holes in the flanges and the mast are round holes appropriately sized for the bolt. The bolt does not slide.

In the attached photograph, the highly polished steel plate is a block attachment point and has nothing to do with the tabernacle. The less-bright steel plate is the portside flange on the mast step plate. The bolt pictured is the one described above.

A tabernacle rig is a spiffy thing, but don't forget to think about what you are going to do when you are single-handedly zipping along at 3 knots with the mast lowered most of the way to pass under a bridge, and you need to suddenly need to change course, or you are forced to leave the helm, or perhaps you need to do both.

The only things keeping that mast from dropping to the deck, or at least slicing through that forward hatch cover like a butter knife passing though whipped margarine are:

1. Your hand on the mainsheet, and

2. Perhaps that very wet mainsheet is held in the slippery grip of the relatively small cleat that is an integral part of the mainsheet block. Well anyway, just think about it a bit. Are you willing to trust that block to hold your mast up while your bow is swinging widely to port at the same time that you have to go forward? Can you walk and chew gum at the same time. As for me, I don't want to think about it for much longer. I have to get down to the boat and do some fiberglass repair to my forward hatch cover.

Or if that didn't convince you to think about it, imagine yourself on a frigid, wet, cold and foggy night when your fingers are cold and the mainsheet is soggy. OK, now it's time to lower the mast. You can't get home unless you pass beneath that bridge, so you give the boom a little shove upward and the mast begins to drop as the mainsheet runs between your numb fingers. How's your grip?

And yes, I have had exactly that experience also. I escaped a destructive mishap that night, but the mast dropped about ten feet before I caught it. At that time, I had a dual-action 4:1/ 8:1 block then with two mainsheet lines. It felt like I had a firm grip on the dual mainsheet lines, but one of the two lines was running free through my cold fingers.After that experience I switched back to a 4:1 ratio block with a single larger diameter line that can be better sensed by cold fingers late on a foggy night. I executed over 150 safe tabernacle operations with my new mainsheet block before last Saturday's mishap. BAck to the drawing board.

Oh and one last scenario: It is possible for your motor to die while the mast is lowered under a bridge while motoring alone. This also happend to me once. You can't pull the mast up, because you are beneath a bridge. You shouldn't let go of the mainsheet. You better fend off the bridge piling. That piling is coming up quickly. Even if you miss the piling, there is that line of boats tied to the dock just beyond the bridge. It would be a shame to stick your nearly horizontal mast in among all those shrouds and stays.

My point in this is that those of us who like to lower our masts underway ought to think about a fail-safe way to secure the mainsheet, so that the sheet does not accidentally drop out of the cleat on the mainsheet block. Last Saturday I conclusively proved that you can make the mainsheet do that.

Ideas come to mind like:

1. Tying a secure knot in the mainsheet at the point that would leave the mast at the height at which the backstay is parallel to the water surface. At any lower angle, the boom rises above the height of the mast anyway.

2. A convenient place to tie the mainsheet securely with sufficient tension to keep the sheet in the cleat when the mast is lowered.

[willie]

Haven't seen much on this subject, but thought it might be worth asking about. I think i better replace this mess, as there isn't much use in doing all the others with these looking like they do. Forespar says if the thru-hull is 6" above the waterline or lower, it needs a valve. I was thinking of using their Marelon Flanged Seacocks, with a flush thru-hull fitting, and proper hose and clamps. Would like other thoughts...is this all necessary for starters, as it's been 40 yrs. the way it is...don't think i better see if it will make it another forty though!
I've never installed the flanged seacocks before. Looks like a backing block glassed in, with proper size hole, bedding in 5200, seacock secured to backing block? Any experts out there? And can i/should i use the present holes, or is there a better way?

Also, i have the deck holes that drain down inside the hull, and exit just below boot stripe. Is this a future problem to watch too? I was thinking of just glassing them in, and making the cutouts on the transom work better someway. There's a lip that prevents all the water from leaving.

Just some final things to work on while taking a break from the d/a sanding job. Would like to hear what others have done with the deck drains, cockpit drains. Thanks. Here's what my thru-hulls for the cockpit look like now....:rolleyes:

[willie]

and the starboard one. note the up to code wiring. haven't figured out what it goes to yet! soon to be gone.

[commanderpete]

The deck drains are fine.

The cockpit drains are fine too. Some surveyors and insurance companies want a seacock on them. I don't see the point, since you would never close those seacocks or rainwater would fill the cockpit.

You could change the hoses if you want to (I haven't). One danger I've thought about is if the battery got loose it could smash the fiberglass bottom of the drain. So the battery should be secured.

A seacock on the sink drain would be better than the float valve.

The original seacocks could be corroded (or they could last another 40 years). The prior owner of my boat had one fail while he was underway, leading to some anxious moments. He had them both replaced, so I never had to do the job.


http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/07.htm

http://catalog.com/bobpone/diySeacock.htm

[ebb]

hey Capt,
what Forespar says is what your insurance guy will say.

I'm also going with flush thruhulls and Marelon for one or two seawater intakes (Forespar also makes a nice Marelon strainer.) The only negative I've heard is that there is some swelling in the ball that eventually makes it difficult to swing the handle which can break. People say that 'regular' greasing and on/offing takes care of the problem, if it is a problem. I will go with Maralon because it's inert.

There has been considerable discussion, if you want to wade through it, on the subject. Ebb & Geoff have fore and aft hard cockpit drains of differing philosophies. No seacocks.

New seacocks for a new old boat is the only way to go. Metal thruhulls have to be suspect both on corrosion and bedding, also if they have been bonded. Soft hoses connected to underwater fittings is the long way to spell 'paranoia.' There is no bilge pump set up I can think of that can save an untended berthed boat.

What the best, safest, longest lasting hose is worth talking about. No?

[However, I have heard of cruisers going with no seacocks at all. One guy uses a hard PVC 'stand pipes' system unfamiliar to me. Noww, by 'stand-pipe' I'm assuming you can look down the pipe and see the bottom of the Bay or Ocean. But extremely interesting. One used as a seawater draw, one or the same used for grey water, requiring hoses, or maybe a plunger to evacuate the dishwash. You would have to have a positive shutoff or a screw-on cap somewhere above the waterline (and a good memory) - way above the waterline. If it was in the cabin area, Right? Never seen a discussion on this. Otherwise, a couple of us have 'standpipes' already in the form of straight thru hard drains in the cockpit.] :D

[willie]

Cmdrpete: thanks for the good reading links. Looks good. I'd like to do this right, and that looks like the way to go.

Ebb, thanks to start with, i have seen photos of yours. My state of the art dial up connection makes it an all day project to view most photos, but i have looked at a bunch while the tea water is trying to boil.
So about your hard 'standpipes', what did you glass in? pvc? i could see doing something like that. But i'm more inclined to just go with a marelon thru hull and seacock, and good hose, double clamped of course.

ON the paranoia issue, I'll be 50 miles from the boat when i can't be on her, and there's only one other boat in the marina, unattended, so i'd like to sleep well. I took out all the other thru hull fittings, and glassed them in. We can pack our water for weekends, and the river is just over the side if we need more for dishes or whatever. Can't see putting holes in a perfectly good boat. Was trying to figure out a way to drain a cockpit without having them exit below the waterline, but that would be a good engineering problem!

[Bill]

IMHO, I would not worry about the cockpit drains. They have stood the test of time and the only problems have been with the sink drain (where the hose has parted from the basket and fallen allowing water to flood the boat). Since your boat no longer has a sink . . .

My cockpit drains have bronze seacocks, but most boats do not. I think the seacocks were added due to insurance underwriting sometime before I got the boat. So far, they have just been another maintenance chore.

As for the little deck scupper drains that exit near the water line, I'd keep them. Again, it's been 40 years and they have worked well and make it easier to clear the deck of that last bit of water you will never get to flow out the opening in the toe rail at the aft end. It will also be a challenge to balance the boat so that the scupper is at the low point . . .

[ebb]

Capt Bill,
start messing around with structural stuff opens a can of worms. To put in hard cockpit sole scuppers, that is, pvc pipe or something, you would have to stablize the cockpit. A hose takes care of any movement (deflection of the sole, eg) - that might crack or break a rigid installation.

338 has lengthwise bulkheads being put in under the cockpit port & starboard edges, and has been glassed to the bulkheads it sits between. Doing this because of the hard use I want to put the boat to. I've also decided to put batteries under the cockpit sole. That install will also stiffen the whole cockpit molding. Some undertaking.

For the pipe I found some 2 1/4" ID epoxy/glass gaspipe. No reason, that was what a local search came up with. I wanted something I felt was stronger than pvc, not libel to break. The forward scuppers run the length under the cockpit without added support. Because I ran em out under the transom. So 338 is clean as a whistle under the ladder.

The photos show what may be considered WAY overbuilt scuppers in the rear. Somehow it just worked out that way with the layers of xmatt and sculpting. The sole is pretty flexible by itself and those standpipes are inassesible back there. especially after closing in the space under the cockpit. (There'll be minimal access hatch way in back to the tubes from the q'berth.) I was influenced by the story of a local Triton being sunk by having its rudder jammed up thru the hull when it went aground.

Yeah, WHAT hose? One guy was saying, don't make the mistake of using black hose with metal spiral inside, as it can rust and degrade. (In fresh water: 40 years!) And you CAN find 100% 316 hose clamps that have an unserrated upcurled band. Best for squeezing plastic hose. Source??
Ebb, on the way down to work on the S/V Bouyant:)

[Ted]

Hull number 56 has only had her hoses replaced twice in 40 years. Don't forget to DOUBLE clamp and place each pair of clamps in opposite directions.

Having said this, I am not sticking with the system. I am going to use fiberglass and create a fiberglass cylinder from cockpit drain down to the hull. This will serve to both reinforce the cockpit and assure no hoses to fail or seep -- not that mine ever have. Of course, the key here is to make enough layers of fiberglass that the strength is adquate to the task.

As for the sink drain, I am going to put a throughull and close it when I am not on the boat.

Ted

[willie]

Here's the latest. Still waiting on some parts.
Was gonna add these to old thread, but it was full of other technical matter, so here I'll try to stick to pics of the boat.:rolleyes:

[willie]

Of course the bugs like it, and the wind blew some cottonwood balls up the creek, but it's turning out fine. All the sanding and fairing might just be worth it! There's still some dents here and there, but hey, she's almost 40.;)

[willie]

And i picked the midnight blue. Figured i'd most likely be sailing in the winter, so a little extra heat will be nice. Work on the boat in the summer, sail in the winter. Sounds like a plan for Oregon.

Here's the rudder, waiting for a certian bronze cast piece....still....

Sorry Dave, had to do it!!:D

[willie]

Ah heck, one more won't hurt. I love looking down the keel...:cool:

One more coat of paint ought to do it. Hopefully the bugs won't be too thick, or the cotton, or the wind, or who knows what all. Fun working out doors. At least we have good ventilation!

[commanderpete]

.......Gasp......

She's beautiful.

A white bootstripe would really set it off, but a pain to keep clean.

[willie]

Thanks cmdrpete! White it will be, on the factory scribed marks. They were still there, under it all.

So is there a way to do the boot stripe without having to mask it off twice, top and bottom? It's covered now, doing the bottom paint and top sides. After another coat of blue, off comes the tape, then tape top and bottom outside. What a pain. I thought i'd pull a fast one and just overlap the blue and red bottom paint, then mask off the boot stripe. Wrong! Couldn't find it! So we sanded some more, and did it right. I have to say i'm getting a little excited to see her sailing. Wow! What a boat. Thanks Carl.

Since this is the gallery, i'll find another picture!:D

[willie]

Decided i had to share this one, getting ready to see if she still floats Tuesday. Have a little touch up to do, and last details, but she's looking good. Guess i'm just a little biased. :D

[Tony G]

Willie,
Very Nice! I was just thinking of e-mailing you this morning for an update. Wow! You left coasters work like lightning:D And launching on a Tuesday-not even waiting for a weekend. I'm both happy for you and envious of you. I take it the rudder shoe worked out fine? And most importantly!! TAKE PHOTOS!!!
Tony G

[ebb]

Super! Nice waterline, too!


Not to get too technical.
What kind and whose paint did you use?
And how was it going on, aside from what was bugging you?:cool:

[willie]

All went according to plan. Don't remember which plan, but she's off the trailer, finally, (no more step ladder!) and at the slip.
I could go into more details, but i'll just say, I'm one happy Ariel sailor! HOO-RAW!!:D

[willie]

This was fun. hopefully never again. Actually it wasn't THAT bad.
The 19 knots with 25 gusts made it fun though. :rolleyes:

[willie]

Factory scribed marks, under all the paint. After removing the excess baggage in the bilge, she sits rather well.

A friend took a couple shots of our maiden voyage to the slip, will post when they come in.

When the Navy divers are done picking up F/A 18 Hornet pieces, we'll be getting to know each other better. The marina at Arlington Oregon is a little crowded with dive boats, etc. after the marine aviation accident a couple weeks ago. Two dead marine aviators, and two Hornets in the Columbia and surrounding area.

So we had quite a crowd of shipmates at the launching, and all with comments on how much they loved the boat. Good time. And good help!;)

My thanks to all here for support and help in getting her back in good shape.

[mbd]

Just a quick 2 cents from a has-been list-lurking high and dry Ariel wanna-be: HUBBA HUBBA!

You guys are an inspiration! A mighty "thanks" for the fine pictures and for the glimmer of hope at the end of these toddler-full years...

Mike

[george copeland]

:D Ave is looking fine, my friend.. very nice work indeed. I second Ebb's question about the finish brand and any notes that might be pertinent. In fact, I just started a new thread on that matter, since I am now planning to take Houdini one step further into that completely impractical world of the over-improved old sailboat. Extravagance becomes its own virtue in these matters--besides, Alberg is due this kind of respect in a world now awash in masted clorox bottles. Yesssss.

[willie]

Thanks for all the compliments boys, to answer some questions,

Final paint is Pettit Easypoxy, midnight blue. 3 good coats. light sanding with 320 on the d/a between coats, to remove any imperfections--fisheyes, bugs, cotton, you name it. Under the easypoxy is about 5 coats of Pettit ship'n'deck, dark blue. I didn't like the way it was finishing, so put the easypoxy over it. So she's blue pretty deep. With my young crew, and my own inexperience, that will be good. Under all this, i put on 2 coats of Pettit easypoxy white undercoater. It's a soft high build primer, fills imperfections, easy to sand off. Fills the paper pretty bad though. I was glad to be done with it. This was all sprayed on, sometimes in the morning, sometimes in the evening, whenever the wind wasn't blowing too bad. Used a NAPA gun, water trap on compressor, about 35 lbs. of air. I'm an amatuer, and it seemed to work ok for me. Just put on a light coat, sand it down the next day, and put on another one. No problem. A couple stiff Capt'n Morgan's works too! Glad it's over with.
Below the w/l, i took it down to glass, after rebuilding the keel/shoe area, taking out thru-hulls and glassing in....then decided to put on an epoxy barriercoat. Got it from National Paint/Bluewater Marine. She had a lot of spots that were a little rough, pitted, pin holes. I brused on straight epoxy over the bad areas, after curing, sanded smooth, got rid of the blush. She'd been out of the water for 6 months in easten Oregon, low humidity, so figured she was pretty dry. Plus i'd punctured her in about 8 spots around the bottom, so decided to go ahead with a barrier coat. Used 4'' rollers for it, and started applying Bluewater Marine copperguard 56 with slime control extra. It's about 1/2 the price of pettit trinidad sr by the way. The boot stipe is exactly where Pearson put it, found the scribed marks under all the old paint. It's an lpu brushed on.
Now i want to work on the deck. The last owner did the grey on the basketweave areas, and it gets too hot. Want to do the whole thing white. The grey is a light coat, brushed on, any hints/suggestions for paint? Think a one part lpu would do.
Guess that's about it. I emailed pettit for info. on what to do with the fresh paint, no answer. My local body and fender man said i shouldn't do anything to it for about 6 months, let it cure, then put on some wax. Any other thoughts?:rolleyes:

[tcoolidge]

I painted my decks and cabintop with EasyPoxy five years ago and it held up well but is starting to show signs of wear. I figure five years on a frequently used boat is reasonable. Next time I'll put on three or four coats instead of the two I applied and probably get a few more years between paint jobs. At the time I was possessed by the irrational desire to go sailing instead of work on the boat and got in a hurry. It goes on easily and comes out nice. It's not perfect but for the amount of work it takes you get a good finish. You can make it as nice as you've made your hull if you want to do the prep. It stands up to normal wear and tear better than I expected and hasn't been damaged by flailing shackles or anything else it's run into. I applied mine with a roller and tipped out any marks with a foam brush dampened in thinner and was a happy camper when it dried. On the nonskid watch out for paint buildup. It tends to fill in the grid and make the nonskid lose it's grip. I also put a flattening agent in the cabin top paint to cut down the glare. A shiny white cabin top and a shiny white deck can be blindingly bright and much harder to keep clean.
Of course a two part would provide an even better finish if you want to spend the time and money. I'd rather go sailing.

Tom

[willie]

Took the crew out for our first sail together on her today. It's their first time on ANY boat, and they're bugging me to go again, so must have done it right.
Here they are looking for teddy...I think the XO ran him over!!(thanks for the idea Jim!) :cool:

[willie]

Always bugging me to drive.

[willie]

And here they are standing watch for marina maneuvers (and out of the way). All in all, couldn't ask for a better day. Even the XO (first photo) had fun with the 3 little ones along. And that's what it's all about!! :D

[willie]

Thought i'd share some sailing pics of the crew. We've had her out 13 times now since launching in August. Different every time! The XO is telling me i'm lucky i get to go 2 3 times/week, guess she's right, but it never seems like it's enough!
Anyway, we all enjoy her very much, she's a great family boat. I have several hundred photos now, will try to pick out a few. ;)

1) XO at work getting us ready
2) driving lesson
3) kids thought it was "kool" to get their toes wet.
4)What's that mom?
5) Wind came up, they actually thought it was fun getting wet! Unlike the FIRST time! That's me at the helm trying to tip her a little more for them.
\
Guess that's enuf for now.

[george copeland]

Great photos--funny how the kids warm up to that heeling thing. This weekend I took a friend's kid who had always been taught the bay was a place of death. In about 30 minutes, he was asking if there were any way we could sail Houdini with the rail down. :rolleyes:

[ebb]

You and yor XO look so cool and you are cool dudes.
I can tell you know are too cool too. There isn't anything
more beautiful than introducing the kids to sailing.

AveM. in her fifth and resurected decade doing
exactly what she was intended to do! Very exciting and
very special!

[willie]

Just did some digging around, and finally looked at Brave Heart. http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=531
What a nice job someone did with the interior! Did she really hit the rocks? Any news since that last post?
Anyway, i've been trying to figure out what to do with the interior. Some nice wood here and there would make things more shippy. Does anyone have experience in the finishing dept.? I could use any tips and advice on making it look professional. And if anyone has more photos of their interiors and what they did, please post!! Happy turkey day :p

[Bill]

Another interior make over is going on with our Aussie skipper. We should have some photo updates of Uhuru posted on "Geoff's Aussie Photo Gallery" shortly. Meanwhile, you might want to take a look at the interior changes Geoff has started making.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=325

[ebb]

I'd forgot about Bravehart! Should put sad news out of mind. She had a lot of good things going inside. Fore-n-aft seats for the tall skippers....nice and homey. A fine remodel that kept most of the original stuff

Wait til you see what Geoff has done!

[commanderpete]

Now you'd be stylin'

[Tony G]

Good Gawd, Pete! Where do you find this stuff? I'm a pretty tolerable guy but that is just down right disgusting!

[ebb]

This will be the last thing you see when
you get swallowed by a giant squid.

[willie]

I've been supervising a crew of teenagers in the national forest this summer. They decided we had to go sailing today, so we went. Beat the he-double tooth picks out of piling brush! Your tax dollars at work! lol
Anyway, they (we!) had a blast. I tried to make it educational for them, and i think it was a success. Keep in mind these kids have never been on a sailboat, or even seen one close up most likely, living in the desert of eastern Oregon. Anyhooo, we had to anchor over in the Bass fishing grounds when the fish finder lit up. So here's a few pictures...
It sure was a rough day at work! ;)

[willie]

We've decided she needs a new home. Not an easy decision. Anyway, she's still in the water at Arlington, OR. Will be on trailer ready to go in Jan.
Bring $7500 and a 2-5/16" ball.:(

It's now Feb., still not on trailer if ya wanta go sailin' first. Lots of snow.:cool:

[frank durant]

:confused: :( :o :confused: :eek: :o :confused:

[ebb]

The Ocean Cruising Club - Swallowing the Anchor
www.oceancruisingclub.org/content/view/563/82/


"....Sometimes, in my bed at night, thirty miles from the coast,
I can hear the anchor chain rolling over the bottom
As the tide turns.

Remember the long lift of the tradewind swells
And the patient gannets weaving in the wake?
Someone read the Walker Log please...
Or has it stopped?"

P F Middleton

[commanderpete]

Hey Willie! Good to hear from you.

There are pictures of your fine boat scattered around the site. Some here

She's a beauty

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=765

[Lucky Dawg]

Sorry to see you go Willie! Beautiful boat and the new owner will be lucky to have her.
I guess you wouldn't sell off my favorite feature of Ave Maria - those beautiful winch bases :D
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=8752&postcount=45