Unsat

[Tony G]

In the early 80's when I had to march in a straight line if someone said 'unsat' it meant unsatisfactory. Well lo and behold it's the early notties and it still does. Here are just some of the spots on 113 that I found unsaturated glass. Some of it is just superficial some has been a little deeper. The superficial stuff tends to be located on/or in the area of the hull deck seam so I don't know how 'superficial' it really is.
Aft starboard corner of the lazerette...

[Tony G]

I think this is a closer look. We'll see what happens after I push the button:D

[Tony G]

Nope! Sorry, that was inside the starboard cockpit locker looking aft. Unsat just the same.

[Tony G]

Dang! Good thing this is just a mouse and not a hand gun. I'd be pokin' holes in everything around here! Still-unsat in the stem. Here's a broader view...

[Tony G]

Gaps and holes everywhere. Maybe I should rent a chopper gun and throw in a hundred pounds along that seam...

[ebb]

WHOLLY JEHOSEPHAT!

Well. I'm not completely sure what we're looking at here. Last foto is of the forward bulkhead at the stem?

Of course you'll be checking with your epoxy friend....but dig, cut, grind out the unsat IF IT IS NOT THE HULL LAMINATION and fill it properly and retab the bulkhead to the hull.

If the unsat is also the hull, WHICH I CAN'T BELIEVE, we need further discussion here!!! - especially with input from Mike.

In 338 there is a lot of roving used for the hull in the rear where finish was not deened important - sand away the paint where you intend to repair befor you epoxy. That looks like paint on the roving. Sorry if I sound patronizing. Looking at Geoff's. I wonder how close is close enough?

[Tony G]

That last photo is lying on your back looking up at the deck at the stem. You're right, that area still needs some prep work. Enlarging the chain locker opening was one of the last things I did on the boat and the was entirely to facilitate working in that area. About that paint, I'm still looking the right tool or technique there. I fashioned a clamp for a 6" wire wheel and that has worked great in the toe-rail cavity. Hours with the 4 1/2" angle grinder and 36grit. But up front in the chain locker when I use the grinder it starts exsposing the raw roving fibers and I'm uncomfortable with that. There may be enough layers there but I'll keep looking until I hear otherwise. The wire wheel worked ok, maybe I'll just have to put in more time.
There are two minor bubbles on 113 where edges of roving wrinkled and left a pocket. Nothing outrageous, easily fixed.

[ebb]

Of course that same angle grinder does not have a vacume pickup. We tried everything including working with the grinder in one hand, vac hose in the other. Nope. Saw somewhere an after market soft plastic hood attachment for the big angle grinders.

The only mask worth a damn is the nofog airwash one, but it's too cumbersome. Still have the bilge to depaint, after the sole comes up. Might use Strip Away there. Have a sensitive nose - find the smell of freshly ground old polyester very offensive. Danger sign.

Keeping a work/time log sounds very organized. Does that include time spent figuring out how to squeeze in a bunk long enuf to sleep in? I have to have standing room also - so have removed the step-up at the companion way and intend to figure out a way to have a pull out ladder from under the bridge. OR more likely build in steps off the built-in furniture, somehow appropriating the headroom there where the ladder can't be!

If you've permanently removed the factory icebox, serious 1/4 berth length can be found under the stbd side lazarette. Looking into that. I think the Alberg CD25D had them - or one.

The aft chain plates knees seem extraordinaryly important to me. Are you replacing them?

Or are you planning to put REAL chainplates outboard on the hull???

[ebb]

Unsaturated roving/glass sounds serious. This is a problem with modern fraudulent boat builders, not sloppy honorable ones like Pearson.

However, as you know, the plastic 'wets out' the fabric but doesn't saturate it. Plays on words perhaps. Could say the plastic encapsulates the glass fibers. Roving came in serious bundles or strands barely interwoven together - some of them maybe didn't get soaked good. The factory guys finishing up the boat must have been working really fast, or the poly went off befor they could pour on more and work it in. ???

But I think you're merely scouring the surface of the roving bundles with the grinder. After the paint comes off, you probably can repaint it with epoxy, or even add a layer of X-mat. What do you think? No loss of strength or integrity.:D

[Mike Goodwin]

Ebb,
The 25D has a stbd quarter berth , the galley is to port with a locker in the port cockpit seat. The stbd seat has just a very shallow locker ,good for line and winch handles.

[Tony G]

Ebb
I'm going to replace the aft chainplate knees with 3/4" ply. Right now we're at a point where I feel I must put them in using the remainder of the mainbulkhead as a landmark for alignment. Once they're in...well lookout! most of what's in there now is going to come out. But not until I get busy on that deck seam and toe rail/rub rail after all I'll need something to lie on. Still toying with the idea of inboard desiel.

[ebb]

Interested in your deck/hull seam upgrade......

After being alerted by a well placed individual here on the West Coast and primed with hard information, I sought out the 10hp BETA diesel at the recent boat show. Very nice and tidy - all the important stuff is on the front, so you can pull kp without getting a hernia. It evidently takes no more space up than the factory Atomic 4, weighs about 180 lbs. I hear it's a marinized Kubota. Don't know nuttin bout no Kubota, but when guys mention it they look in your eyes and expect you to say, 'well, hey, that's a purdy dependable engin, ain't it?'

One convincing point about the Yamaha 338 got was that parts (and mechanics?) are supposedly available world wide. Same is true for the K., I heard.
Rick, with the Triton next to me at the yard, has a Volvo - nothing but trouble and parts for it are explative expensive.:rolleyes:

[marymandara]

at one point i had a slip neighbor who also had a commander. this was when 280 still had the a-bomb. both boats were in very similar condition, with similar sails in terms of cut and condition. guess which one came about more smartly, pointed better, and accelerated faster...not mine.
it's my understanding that MORC rule at the time the boats were built required an inboard auxiliary, which is why the thing was an option. i can tell you that the performance of the boat without the a-bomb was night and day better. before i took it out and replaced it with oars and chute, i was going to take it out and cut in a motor well like my neighbor's had.

hey...if you just gotta convert, though, or if you really like a lot of extra gas for the outboard, i have something for you!<G>

dave

[ebb]

Imagine how I'm sweating the 110 pound Yam aha - Plus the built-in gas tanks (maybe 8 gals each) - Plus the battieies under the cockpit - Plus all the cruising gear on deck in the rear - Plus the weight of all the epoxy work - Plus the bloody captain!! 338 is going to squat to its chocks. A BETA in the bowels may have something to say for it. Being down where the weight ought to be.

Good ole Charlie MORC - was more concerned with offshore safety than banging around the bouys. Well may be why Carl had an inboard designed for every Ariel and Commander. They all are built to accept an inboard, viz a vie the propeller aperture in the keel and the two-part rudder shaft with the upper bend. Not so??;)

[Bill]

"They all are built to accept an inboard, viz a vie the propeller aperture in the keel and the two-part rudder shaft with the upper bend. Not so??"

Must be so. That's what all the Alberg drawings show . . . and in those days, the Atomic -4 was about the only option. The Beta is probably close to half the weight? That would improve performance . . .

[marymandara]

the MORC rule had to do with some BS about the lazarette needing to be watertight, to my understanding.

the two problems with the atomic in an ariel are the very significant amount of drag represented by the open aperture and the decrease in helm authority of the (reduced area) rudder.
also, the distribution of the weight seems to be ugly...doesn't look so bad on paper, or even in the flesh...but 280 was much more stable just stepping aboard even with the a-bomb removed.

about the weight...i actually weighed everything that came out.
the universal literature has it at 360 pounds in raw-water-cooled form (which I had)...but then there is the shaft, the stuff box, extra wiring, engine controls (the deck-mounted shifter alone is around 20 pounds) and so on...including the allowance for 15 gals of fuel weight, the whole number was just over 600 pounds!

this of course being an issue of personal philosophy, but i gotta kick it out here...
i fail to see how any item which decreases the potential performance of a proper SAIL boat (not a "yacht", or a modern "sailboat ", which is really more a motorsailor with a nice kitchen and bathroom and zoomy lines and can only sail under a fairly ideal set of conditions) can be considered to enhance the "safety" of the boat. even in light air, there's a lot more applicable horsepower to be had in the rig if there are decent light air sails aboard. good ground tackle and lots of scope will do a much better job of holding off a lee shore than any engine will. i have absolutely zero interest in banging around buoys, but i have a great deal of interest in performance...as a safety item of the highest order.
just one man's opinion, but i will add just a bit more...

ever look at a cape dory 26? they did not sell well, and only about 100 hulls were produced. in many ways, it's a super-ariel--take a look. my point? alberg did not even draw it with an inboard OPTION...just a real small motor well aft.

best,
dave

[Bill]

". . . and the decrease in helm authority of the (reduced area) rudder." Carl may have imporved things here. His lines drawing shows an additional rudder shape that appears more effecient. Ebb had a mock up until a big rain storm last year . . . :(

[ebb]

It's all a compromise of one sort or another. And then there are the purists. I think the purists should prevail or at least have the edge, and a much lower PHRF number. The SF sailing fleet, anyway, has long discovered that a smooth faired underbody and a small but adequate OB that you lift out for SAILING by stowing sideways in the laz is the best way to go. H U Z Z A H, all the way round!

[ebb]

Capt. Dave,
Yeah, the 25D may have hit the starting family market at the wrong time or something, selling so few, as you say. All dolled up it looks pretty good tho (from a site on the net). From the pure aesthetical discipline of determining the objective flamerjams of an inanimate object, and an Ariel owner, the 25D looks homely to me IMCO. Yes it does. All for a little more room.

[Bill]

". . . adequate OB that you lift out for SAILING by stowing sideways in the laz is the best way to go . . ." Well, almost. We stow the engine on the sole between the two cabins. Got'ta get that weight down low . . .:cool: And, you don't want water collecting in the engine's head when on one tack or the other :D

[marymandara]

ebb--
gotta go dig on the CD owner's assn. and see one of these. i heartily concur on the CD25D...the CD26 is a horse of an entirely different color. also, the CD25D did have an inboard option...

on a different note, same thread...
i'm curious here--almost sounds like there are O/B ariels or commanders running around with open apertures. I've only seen two ariel hulls out of the water besides c#280, the family ariel from little kid dom and c#76 PILGRIM--they both had the aperture openings in keel and rudder filled in factory configuration.

any chance at the hatch? i got one from tony g. (BTW, tony g., did the remittance reach you OK?), but have a different plan for yours than for his...and although they SHOULD be dead identical, i do not like to cut on the boat or the materials without the actual item in hand to pattern directly from...

best,
dave

[Tony G]

Dave
Did great. I used the private message option for that one. You should have a memo on the bottom of the discussion home page that sez you have an unread message. Thanks again
Tony G