Commander 1964 Hull # 38

[joeniver]

I am looking for anyone on Long Island that has an Ariel or a Commander. I just got a Commander (Hull 38) for free--$250.00 to put it in my back yard.
Would love to post some pictures if anyone interested.
joe
Long Island New York (Suffolk County)

[joeniver]

I love this boat!
New to the Forum.

[mbd]

Welcome aboard Joe!

Here is a link to the POs gallery page: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2195-Commander-38

I thought #38 sounded familiar...

[joeniver]

Help:
What is the least amount that needs to be done to the hull to be able to sail on April 15, 2017--I get my mooring!
thanks
Let me know if you need recent pictures

[ebb]

All you need is bottom paint and a surface to roll it on.

Depends on your surface and what has been put on there before for your choice of prep and bottom paint.

Imco dry sanding of bottom paint should be avoided. But if all you need is to smooth the surface and create tooth,
That may be your best choice. If you have a rough surface, and must dry sand, rent a Festool
HEPA vac with a Festool sander /grinder and a onepiece eye mask-fine particulate replaceable filter. You must protect
your face and lungs. ...

Find out what brand locals use. You should probably use an ablative, a bottom that wears away over one season or two.

So you won't have to sand that off when or if you decide to barrier coat -- which requires removal of all paint down to
the gel coat. Depending on the condition of your hull, a chemical peel may be the way to go. It is as messy as dry grinding is messy.
You get to choose. Best way is to hire it out!!!

On your mooring you may want to use a hard bottom paint that lasts longer but needs to be removed before the next coat.
Maybe there's one that does both. Some untried green paint that won't kill you, either rolling it on or taking it off, is now available.

Getting hauled here on the West Coast is a budget buster.

[joeniver]

Thank you for your words of wisdom EBB.

I am not sure what was put on before. Will ask Commander # 38 (this forum) if he put anything on or did nothing.

What doe it mean to create tooth?

So if I ask West Marine for an Ablative they will know what to sell me?

I am just concerned with the bottom making it thru the sailing season, April 15 +- to November 15. Then in comes back to the house for more work that i can not do at the mooring.

Getting hauled out is expensive here also. Just to haul from nearby town persons driveway to my driveway was $250.00.

[ebb]

joeniver, If you haven't done so go to your local library and borrow

THIS OLD BOAT by Don Casey
It's sub title is: Turn a rundown fiberglass boat into a firstclass yacht on a shoestring budget.

So I looked into the index and found bottom painting is talked about beginning page 351.
Now bottom painting is advise given by many, it's an ongoing and nowadays a changing subject.
Advice varies and seldom comes with step by step instructions...

This book will give you the vocabulary and warm you up to the basics.
I have an inborne prejudice against asking advise from a chain marine store.
You ought to enter the store with a few prejudices of your own.
So I'd read the few pages in This Old Boat to begin with.

Ask what a fisherman uses on his bass boat, what day racer has on his in the marina, what the former owner
used... they'll all be different. Thinner stuff will use less than thicker stuff, you need to know what kind of
bottom paint, cheap, medium, expensive. Should you go with copper paint, which will soon require a license
to use*, or a more friendly and probably more expensive less toxic stuff.
The DFO (dreaded former owner) knows exactly how much he used to do the bottom, and how long it lasted.
If you are mooring the boat, it has a different bottom than if you are hauling out for the winter.

If you don't have the book, it's a good introduction into small boat ownership...
and old guys like me have plenty of advise even if we don't know.

Of course I was referring to the every other year, or longer if you hire a diver to brush your bottom clean to
make it last another year... HAULOUT. Usually at a marina or close by -- where you are lifted out, put on a
gurney, and rolled aside to put on new bottom on for the day or two -- if you're lucky you can power wash
the bottom by yourself, or hire someone at the yard to do it, who has the equipment.
-- decide what prep is required, whether you need to scour the surface with a certain grit to provide tooth for
the paint you are using because it says so on the label or in the specs(specifications) for application. In Cali-
fornia, because of environmental laws and the toxicity of many bottom paints, you have to hire 'professionals'
to do it.
Almost every one in the Alberg fleet here on SFBay goes to a marina where you can work on your boat yerself.

OK that's enough...don't mean to patronize, the Casey book is a good place to start if you haven't already!!!

Don't know if you are located on Great South Bay, but there must be quidelines for that water if people still
fish there? We used to clam there! I know there's a WM in Babylon on Montauk Hwy, West Islip side.
Maybe they are 'local' enough to share with you, a local, what locally is correct.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

*who's to say? With the new administration, environment is fair game again.

[joeniver]

Got my copy coming from Inter- library loan here in Suffolk County.
This guy is prolific--I especially like the last one (for my wife)--:

This old boat
Don Casey's complete illustrated sailboat maintenance manual
Sailboat hull & deck repair
Canvaswork and sail repair
Sensible cruising : the Thoreau approach; a philosophic and practical approach to cruising
Inspecting the aging sailboat
100 fast & easy boat improvements
Sailboat electrics simplified
Dragged aboard : a cruising guide for the reluctant mate

I am on the North Shore of Long Island in Rocky Point.

You helped the previous owner, Forum->Ariel-> Association->Gallery-> Commander #38
The sloop only moved a few miles.

I will get some pictures of the hull in a day or two.

[ebb]

Ebb is so opinionated he can say: that once you've dipped in, there's a whole world of fantastic

reading in both DIY and adventure... after Casey. As you see, we have here on the pages some,

or maybe we can say ALL, of the amazing Commander owners on the planet, who hopefully

will help with specifics. Know I seem to be an annoying know-it-all, of course I'm not. Not!!

I've just been around a long long time, and want to be helpful. I sometimes make bald-faced

lies just to see if anybody is actually listening, but no one has caught one. Guess I know what

that means. This forum, now that I think about it, is my shoutout window in the neighhood.


Really hope you have a great time playing with your new toy. This is a quality web site here.

Once you dig in you'll find ridiculous treasures of knowledge about your Commander.

[joeniver]

Here are some pictures of the Hull on Commander #38. I would like opinions on what should be done to sail for one season in Long Island New York.

[Bill]

If no holes, put on some bottom paint and go! :D

[ebb]

Why not sell her at a 100% profit for $500 to someone who wants to fix her up?

[joeniver]

Ebb! You crazy!


First of all, you are moving to Long Island for the summer and living with me. You and I will:


1. Fix up this boat to be mint condition.
2. You will teach me (I have 1 year sailing experience on 15' Chrysler Mutineer--Mutt) to sail in winds from 5 knots to 30 knots.
3. We will leave in the fall of 1917 and sail thru the Panama canal and I will deliver you to Cali-forn-ne-a (aka terminator) safe and sound.
4. And, if your training of me is STELLAR--as everyone says it will be--I will sail back to Long Island solo!


Let me know when your flight is!


joe

[joeniver]

Thanks for the response Bill.


What kind of Bottom Paint should I get. Do I just tell the West Marine salesperson that I want Bottom paint for a fiberglass boat?


thanks
joe

[ebb]

HOMEWORK: READ THE CASEY BOOK
Hey joe, like almost all of us, dive in. Diving in was the hardest thing I ever did when I
started. I'm a classic loner, but also found people to help, even when I had little help, I
found a younger naval architect working on his boat, introduced self. Don't remember
the money exchange, but obviously was reasonable enough for me to forget. He virtually
steered me through my first boat. I've always been a working stiff, so always had some
$$$. I collected books on the subject. Some were helpful in terms of actual step by step
help.... most were not. Made every mistake myself, including not protecting self well
enough from the plastic chemicals I used. As you may have seen in this Forum, I often
go to extreme lengths and huge amount of words to explain stuff, step by step, because
that is often missing from DIY books, specs, and application instructions.
However, this still rates as opinion, what I say is based on a whole older, self-schooled
way of experience, knowledge, shortcuts, and advice which could really be wrong for you.

Anyway, tackling your Commander Project is something you have to figure out. As Bill
suggests: Slap on two or three coats of bottom paint and go sailing FIRST. You know
how to sail, check out your new boat. Make lists, if you don't know something, write
that down also. BE specific. It is good advice to ask locally (someone working on their
boat, or someone in a brick and mortar marine store) what bottom paint working boats
are using in your area. Get into a conversation.
Buying the paint is the easy part.

There are certain things you should do when first working with an unknown surface.
Your Commander hull looks like it's in great shape. The rudder looks like it's been rebuilt.
Doesn't look like original wooden planks are showing. The space between rudder shaft and
keel post looks tight. You may have a rudder encased in fiberglass. Or completely 'new'.
Doesn't matter... Take a (Bahco carbide blade scraper, the large size) scraper and remove
any loose stuff. Don't dig the blade into the hull's surface until you figure out what you got.

Use the carbide to scrape a little deeper in a couple small places to see if there is a thick
white gelcoat on the hull. If there is no white, or if the white layer is very thin, you may
have a new barrier coated bottom on your boat. Don't do anything rash until you've
figured it out! Former owner available?? Original polyester color is dark translucent green.

Looks like the boat is supported OK. Just recently went on and on about boat jacks. See
if you can easily get the boat level fore-n-aft, and sideways. See if the partial waterline
showing is level. Maybe you can use the remains of what looks like the bootstripe to find
where the bottom paint ends. You might look VERY carefully for the original factory boot
stripe and waterline in that area. It would be a slightly indented scribe line, an obviously
intended line or maybe two, whose lower line is eyeball straight. They may have long ago
disappeard. Found mine on the Ariel.The top of the bootstripe often rises going forward
to the stem, appearing wider at the bow than midway. The lower line of the remains of
the bootstripe seen in your photo is the dead straight waterline, or should be.
The indent waterline is in the gelcoat. Boats moored or wintered in the water often sink
deeper in the water and eventually have their waterlines moved up. You might say they
get saturated, because that is what polyester does. However getting the water out is an
other kettle of fish, another project requiring the removal of all paint. But not gelcoat!

Once you've gotten the hull cleared of any loose stuff, you will now know if any of the
colored stuff is soft or hard. Imco if it is soft it should be removed. Soft paint is most
likely ABLATIVE bottom paint. It is chemically formulated to slough off as time in the water
progresses, removing itself and any organic growth with it. It is now very compromised.
Remove it -- if the paint can fairly easily be scraped off.

If you are going to sail in 2017, that is the kind of bottom paint you want to use. Cheaper
ablatives last the season. Expensive will last two or more depending on where you are.
Copper bottom paints are beginning to disappear because they are bad bad. But don't
go for an overpriced environmental until you are prepared and ready.

Next you want to degrease the hull where you will paint. Wipe it down with isopropyl
alcohol and lots of terry rags Use the specs on the ablative can or the data sheet you've
found using the web, and prep the hull with UNCOATED ALUMIUM GRIT sandpaper.*
Looking at your photos, it doesn't look like you have to go crazy. Just some scuffing to
provide a surface. If you are actually planning to later work on the hard on the boat,
you shouldn't need a primer. Vac dust off hull. Hose off hull or wash with warm water
and small amount detergent. Water should sheet, not gather in drops, streamlets and
islands like your newly waxed auto.
If you want, tape off the bootstripe first, use an oil enamel paint for the stripe, let dry
completely, then tape it off so you can roll the bottom on . Your top sides won't look
too bad with a nice crisp boot stripe. Or skip that - but don't put bottom there!

The hardest part is leveling the boat. Get a couple friends together,. Use a bottlejack
judicially to gain the few inches you need. Under the keel. And probably scraps of
plywood and large wood shims from the lumber store. (Great for micro adjustments).
Where you lift, the other end wants to go down. Unscrew (lower) jacks there... screw
out jacks where you lift, but block the boat (add shims) under the keel first. Fore-n-aft
first. Then use these main jacks to level port and starboard. I have assumed the boat
hasn't been leveled. Do not move the jacks if the legs have been established, move
jacks up or down by quarter turns of their screws. Do not want to destabilize the boat.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

->Figure out what caused the rust stains. They happened when the boat was out of
the water. Rust appears to be coming from the interior in the bilge area. There should
NOT be any drains in this area. The hole(s), if they are still there, must be repaired.
Something rusting in the bilge probably made the rust, but there is no logical reason
to have drainage there !!!

->The hole in the hull in the third picture should have a seacock behind it. It doesn't,
because there is no thru-hull showing.
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*To do any sanding of your own on the boat, you should have a decent oscillating
sander. A 5"D Makita with an 8hole platen that draws the dust in through Bosch brand
8hole disks, might be a good choice. The pricey item to own is a Vacuum with a HEPA
filter. If you have a very fine particulate HEPA, you will be able to work with the vac inside
your boat. You also will be able to sand your boat in a marina yard if you need to. You
will have to research that, because I can only recommend the most expensive one, that
turns the tool in your hand and the vac on at the same time...
The Makita I've used with a Fein $$$ Vacuum, but they are not paired electrically, so you
must separately switch them on, and the two tools are usually widely separated working
on the hull..

Disks and regular sheet sandpapers are very often coated with latex or silicone to
make them no-clog and longer lasting. Use only closed-coat aluminum oxide uncoated or
black silicon carbide wet-or-dry. This silicon is not the silicone rubber/oil that is
anathema for all boat work. Never use clear silicone caulks on your boat!!!
Chesapeake Light Craft, Harris Oct2010
http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boats-blog/boat-builder-random-orbital-sander-roundup.html
imco, for hull work you want a sander with a handle (like a grinder). Festool is a very
expensive system, but it is the best. Skip PorterCable and Black&Decker, made in China.
This is all imco, in my considered opinion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
Bisquit has good tips below, and agree with him on the ablative for a number of reasons...
but recommend ablative ONLY for joe's 2017 honeymoon with C38. If he's serious about
later bringing the Commander up to date, the bottom paint removes easily.

[Bisquit]

It looks like an ablative. If you run your finger over the surface and it flakes off as powder it probably is an ablative. If it leaves little or no residue on your finger it is probably a modified epoxy. In either case an ablative is a safe bet to coat over the existing paint. It you try to overcoat an ablative with a modified epoxy it will come off in sheets. If you put an ablative over an epoxy it should work just fine. I'm personally not a big fan of ablatives but in this case it is probably the safest bet.

[joeniver]

I uploaded three picture of an electric motor sticking out of the outboard well. If there are no waves, no wind and no current, will this electric motor be able to slowly move my commander?

Want to use this electric until I have the money for a 7hp or higher gas motor.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=9970&d=1482545002

[ebb]

According to Minnkota:
"you can approximate HP rating of any electric motor
by multiplying motor amp draw times voltage to find wattage of motor.
Divide wattage by 746, gives you hp rating of the motor.
746 watts equals 1 HP".

There is no direct correlation of thrust to HP.

When you get a gas 8HP OB for a displacement boat,
you want the propeller on it with a pitch for thrust,
rather than the usual speed prop.

Electric trolling motor propellers are set up for acceleration... push.
Response is immediate,
props designed for thrust not speed.

Motor on your boat there looks like it has enough thrust for a kayak!


some Commanders on this web site have electrified their propulsion.
Look em up.

[joeniver]

Ebb:
The rust stains on the hull are from the Long Island Oak leaves that accumulated in the cockpit. That's one problem solved.

I went to the store and I could not find which ablative paints were sloughing and which were copolymers. Any hints on what ingregent point to which one?

Another question: How can I test my thru hull depth sounder to see if it is working? Should it click-click-click if I listen by the hull like some say?

Thanks

#38
joe

[joeniver]

Ebb:
I have seen Xmatt mentioned a couple of times. Where can I find the stuff.

[ebb]

Have gotten 85% of my plastic and glass from a West Coast brick and mortar called
TAP Plastics. They have Knytex X-mat 1808. I think the 4 digit is used to ID various
weights and widths of the product. It also comes in various inch widths of 'tape' rolls,
which are prefered for tabbing. Knytex can be used with any resin. If you are buying
generic, check to see if it is specific for polyester only, which won't work with epoxy.

The material is supplied as a double layer of a kind of flattish roving, loosely stitched
at a 45degree bias with a light scrim of matt. Perfect for forming difficult corners and
curves as it can be wet formed around difficult angles. You can do beautiful work when
tabbing compound surfaces by push/pull persuading the fabric to stay straight while
laying it up as tabbing, say, for hull to bulkhead bonding, I got mine in 18oz and 24oz
50" wide cloths. Different widths of roll tapes are expensive, but imco worth every
penny for ease of application. TAP X-matt tapes are no longer selveged, but the 'tape'
which wants to come apart still holds together better than scissor cutting.
Compared to woven fiberglass the material is thick, and won't finish smooth. You
can grind on this stuff without loosing its strength, like you wouldn't sand through
the weave of glass cloth (unless designed for, as when layering in a dished hole repair,
where a number of woven fabric wafers are used.)

You can wet out two square feet on a piece of seranwrap, pick it up and position
exactly using the plastic wrap to handle it. Once pressed in position you can leave the
wrap in place or attempt to peel it off wet, so you can layer on the next. Often fit
paper patterns first, use to cut the fabrc, using a fat Sharpie to transfer up and down
arrows and dashed lines indicating fold places on the dry initially stiff X-matt.
Generally want to butt join pieces, and lap the joints with the next layer. If you are
precutting a lot of pieces, red and green pens.

Can cut and lay on DRY light-weight woven cloth at a 45 degree bias onto your wet
X-matt lay up. By hand, brush, spatula -- tidy things up, make sculpting neater by
pressing and teasing the fabric without picking up loose threads. Use the dry cloth
to keep things neat and soak up extra resin. You may be able to use the spreader, if
not to stroke, but press into shape. This is done with a certain aplomb, because the
epoxy is setting up. Once it does, immediately stop, toss containers, bristle brushes.

Save your stir stick and favorite spreaders by wiping with paper towel for next mix.
Wipe wet drips, globs off the work area to avoid grinding, Have a couple small carbide
blade scrapers (Bacho*) handy, to avoid the grinder. Clean-up with 91% drugstore
isopropyl alcohol. Far less lethal than denatured with toxic methyl alcohol in it.
*Klingspor (currently, online print cat. pg 52) www.woodworkingshop.com/


Other glass suppliers sell similar stuff with a different name. You can create great
strength with just a few layers with this fabric. And it being in bias makes it easy for
any problematic layup. Like tabbing right angle rib or panel to the curved hull, without
a radius joint fillet. Add a plain cabosil thickened segue later to create a nice looking
curve in the angle. Make your own fillet-curve-maker by carving a pliable (green)
spreader.
For narrow bulkheads, advisors agree that a large curved fillet should be layed in
before any Xmatt, with fabric reinforcement pasted on top. Hard bulkheads can
imprint thru the hull, show up as a vertical bump on the topsides, making the joint
visible on the hull... after your expensive Awlgrip job!! Some professionals will not fit
a major bulkhead without including a thick closed-cell foam rubber gasket along the
length of plywood edge that will bear on the hull - then a wide epoxy/cabosil fillet on
both sides of the blkhd - then X-mat tabbing.
Look at Commander sites for some incredible work.

TAP Plastics imagines themselves as another kind of plastic products store. They are
not oriented to the marine trade. Have exclusively used their 2to1, 100% solids no
solvent Marine Grade PREMIUM EPOXY RESIN on the Ariel, inside and out, for years,
without an amine blush prob, in cold and hot temps, without regard to humidity.
Tho not sure, in rain storm, in very high humidity, it could blush. It's a bit extreme
to work epoxy outdoors when it's raining.
Buy guaranteed no-blush 2-part epoxy from epoxyproducts.com. MAS EPOXY is another.


Biaxial Cloth is another more common name for X-mat. But if the vendor is selling theirs
with the 4 digit number indentifier, it's probably what I'm familiar with.
Jamestown has another brand of biaxial, but looks different in their thumbnails. Etc.

When you find a vendor, you want to see ounce weight describing the 'fabric'. 24oz is
really very heavy material. It will gobble up epoxy. Try 17/18oz first. Make sure it's
all-resin compatible. Some vendors have sample packs ...that you have to pay for.:eek:

[joeniver]

Concern about the gap at the top of the rudder and the gap (less) at the bottom of the rudder.
First picture is the shoe. Seems OK
Second one is the bottom of the rudder. Narrow gap.
Third is the top of the rudder. Wider gap.

Should I be concerned?

[Bill]

A-C yachts are not precision pieces of engineering as you might find in a German automobile.:)

[joeniver]

so true, so true. Would you care to venture an opinion?

[Bill]

If the rudder swings freely, then in my opinion, there is no problem.

[joeniver]

While I value Bill's opinion, a diatribe is more what I am used to on this lovely forum. Hence my appeal to Ebb.

[joeniver]

what is the difference between the white and the green? They both seem to be non-ablative paint.

[joeniver]

Trying to figure out what the difference is and if it matters for putting on an ablative coat and launching my commander.

[ebb]

joeniver suh, Have to get a smell of things first. If your hull hasn't gone through an upgrade, the white is probably original gelcoat.
If the white surface sands suspiciously easy, makes white dust, it's probably epoxy barrier coat. White because most bottom paints aren't.
And white is expected when removing bottom paint for recoat.
Gelcoat, when you scrape at it, won't act like a coat of paint. Even old gelcoat, is pretty hard and very smooth. It originally was sprayed
into a well prepared mold, it looks and behaves different than any rollon coating.

I've on-and-on'd about chemical paint removers. Never use methyl chloride. Really, NEVER. Non-toxic, orderless, bio-degradable, $20qt Soy-Gel is a safer chemical stripper, maybe OK for small jobs like the rudder, but messy. But so is sanding, unless you have a Festool sander matched to one of their vacuums, or a Fein which does not draw dust up through the tool. But is an excellent vacuum$$$$ for the shop, boat, and connected to the useless bag outlet on any sander.

So I can't recommend a method (it's all a PITA) to remove old green/black bottom paint, which could be hard or could be ablative. You'll know when you start sanding. Ablative = easy. May be it all comes off easy.

If you are going to barrier coat with a white epoxy you have to remove all paint. You do not have to remove the gel coat. You'll be scratching it. What ever you're doing next, that 80grit on a fast moving ocillator isn't a bad scratch to put a new coating on. Imco 80 grit
does a better job removing paint than coarser grits, which have less grit per square inch. Want sharp grit, don't sand with a worn disk.

My new coating insurance is to wipe down the project FIRST with 91% isopropyl alcohol before sanding. Remove dust (vacuum and/or soapless wash or clean damp rags). Then just before new coat goes on, wipe it down again with isopropyl and clean rags. It's possible that coating failures
happen often enough because of contaminated products like coated sanding disks, dirty rags, local contaminated dust in the marina or off the
highway (where copious deposits on my project are black granules, which has to be tire rubber and unburnt diesel) Contamination can also come from the garlic fries you had at lunch. There are many more, of course, surface temperature, humidity/dew point, etc.
Also when removing dust: DO NOT SCRUB the tack cloth, as if it were a rag, on the surface you are about to paint. Commercial tack cloth may use linseed oil for tack, you don't want to transfer oil to your work. Just don't use them at all. Damp clean rag with isopropyl.

But if you decide on sanding the old paint off, you automatically have prepped the boat for a new coat of bottom paint. If your boat comes
out of the water regularly, or if you moor, your choice is, seriously, what everybody else is using locally. Ablative if not recoated every year
or other year will eventually just fall off, but you got to to be aware, because slime, barnacles and local sealife can be worse than any coating to remove. Hard coats leach their poison and you have to sand off the porous matrix every 3rd or 4th year, so it doesn't build up.

Around here in central Calif, the most popular is Petit's TRINADAD. Expect 2 - 3 years. Haulouts are expensive.
Many owners really want a non-toxic, just because sanding toxic paint is dumb. Environmental paints are appearing now, that are far less lethal to humans and water you sail in, that might be tried... if you have the bucks.

There's permanent Coppercoat, that guarantees 10 years!$$$ -- and an electronic device that sends a current thru or over the hull.
If you are going to sand it off, there are tools that work better than others. You want one that's not going to tire your hands and arms. I don't know anymore what's out there. But would naturally look at the latest fast charge lithium mega volt cordless sanders.

I use a corded 5"8hole Makita sander, the kind that has the motor on top, rather than the grinder-style with sidearm handle. Important are the disks, I like hook and loop. Bosch are everywhere, most Ace hardware, and are OK. Don't last long enough for me. Zircon disks that Festool has are very good, but you buy into a system that owns you. It is the best there is. And you actually can sand NO MASK DUST FREE.

Regularly order from the Klingspor WoodworkingShop catalog, BUt you have to be sure you don't buy latex, sterate, or silicone anticlog coated disks or papers from them. Klingspor has blue Zirconium sanding disks. Zirconium has a rep for lasting much longer than aluminum oxide. Have no experience with their blue disks (and I haven't sat under the boat sanding in a long time). You'll be using 80 grit, probably. Try a few of each. Trick is not to bear heavily on the sander. Less heat/longer lasting disks. Don't know what the answer is... I tend to stay with aluminum oxide closed coat grit. Don't want to sand the hull (anything) and have trouble with the coating or paint not sticking.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ARGUEMENT FOR BARRIER COAT
The isophthalic polyester resin of our boats is not the cheaper othophthalic resin of the 70's that produced blisters & pits requiring expensive repair -- and a final vinylester or epoxy barrier coat. Our hulls don't blister. However, any polyester laminate is not waterproof. Some A/C skippers have taken it down to the gel coat -- again, do not remove the gel coat -- and barrier coat with epoxy. I look at it this way. Don't want to expose laminations (in the translucent green polyester under the gelcoat of our Ariel/Commanders) which you will do, when you start penetrating the gelcoat removing expired anti-fouling -- time after time. Glass fibers are not changed chemically in any way, merely surrounded with resin. There are grades of glass, some better at being encapsulated (like X-matt), as there are better epoxy resins to do that with.

If the glass in a laminate is exposed to water, it will capillary into the hull and probably travel web pathways of the hull's reinforcement, who knows? Thinking like that motivated me to find an epoxy coating that is designed to stop water. Use it inside the bilge too.

The gelcoat on our boat and hull is 50 years old. It's become porous. Don't exactly know what has escaped, it's generally agreed to have been depleted. Perhaps equally by sun and water. Like human skin, there's all kinds of snake oil out there to fix it. It's pretty much all BS. If the gelcoat is solid, not crumbling or cracking off, I'd guess it's OK to put a quality coating over it. 2to3 coats of tank coating, not a paint. Preservation, along with rehabilitation and refurbishment, that's what we're doing here!!! All imco!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


http://www.paints-coatings-epoxies.com/a_water_gard_300_epoxy_paint.html Water-gard 300. PaulOman (propr) calls this a paint. Probably as a way of describing it's application. It is a tank/floor coating that has to be applied with a short nap epoxy roller.. It's not a cosmetic. In fact I suggest a couple coats so you can pass the sander over it, to flatten it and provide tooth. It does not act like a paint. And is a PITA to apply. Small amounts of Xylene, a 'slow' solvent preferred, but Acetone... can be used to loosen it up a bit.
You will then need phenolic$$ shortnap covers if you add solvent. Epoxies themselves are made with highly toxic chemicals, that cause endocrine system hormonal damage, that you have a 95% chance of passing on to your children and grandkids -- according to the FDA!
Sorry, can't find anything funny in this!
(this post was in another style, but automatically reverted to this form.)

[joeniver]

1002210021

[ebb]

joeriver, It is difficult to look at what you show there (at least from here in California).
From here, if you are asking about the space between the rudder shaft and the keel
post, the crack is about the same, top to bottom. At least scrape some paint off.

So, what are you concerned about? You might have looked at the tiller head to see
if you have any play (movement of the rudder shaft in the rudder tube) and so forth.

As I say, the rudder looks like a fiberglass rebuild. If this is so, you can't compare
it with any other rudder anyway. Yours is unique. It requires you to inspect it carefully.
Remove paint. See what you got. Check sleeve bearing under the tillerhead.

What you are showing,
in as few images possible, is what looks like a boat in pretty good shape. Posts from
some folks here on this thread say: put on some bottom and go sailing. Get familiar
with your new friend. Get the whole picture before zoning out on a detail.

Perhaps you are not sure you want to commit to C38. Understandable. You might
take on the bottom paint job to get started. Paint, rollers, tape, a corded sander from
HarborFreight, disks, rags and isopropyl alcohol, single use gloves, and a couple beers,
maybe a friend to help. That will make the boat look so much better, you might sell it.
You might sail it.

As one main responder says: If it swings freely, you probably don't have a problem.

Imco, you have to show more. Like Dr. G says, "I'll know more after my 'Y' incision"...
However, it's plain, your boat is not dead yet... GO SAILING! ...Get into it, first.

Of course there is a caveat to this. Before you go sailing, check out all the systems:
especially the rigging, and steering system, sails, stanchions, safety gear.
If you are going to moor, this is another system that has to be thought out carefully.
Battery, pv panel, automatic bilge pumps, will your boat stay afloat in a storm.
Boat alone on a mooring needs special attention to its chaffing gear.


Good luck!

[joeniver]

Ebb, you are a true mentor to me and the forum. Thank you. Thank you for your honesty and frankness. After a string of expletives, I usually agree with you.

Yes, sanding the bottom and slapping on some anti-fouling paint. Got my mooring permit yesterday. Got a pretty good location from the town.
The mooring itself is $650 (300 lbs) for the 27 footer--as I mentioned elsewhere.

Sanding today as its sunny out and that is good for my SAD. Next step after that is to check out all the systems.

Thank you Ebb and Pearsonariel.org

[ebb]

Mentor I'm not. I'm an older guy with a similar Alberg to yours, with what I hope you don't
see as opinion but observations for discussion. Past/present meets future/present.

Problem, personally, is that I never get enough detail to satisfy. Maybe that's why I write
so much, don't talk like a teacher, not a teacher, just follow where the words go.

Have to watch self, because if the muse takes me to those who believe they are mentors,
and with a little caution and familiarity, find they are not transparent, I'll take them down
a peg, especially if seriously stupid or dishonest. (New gen anchors, Torqeedo OBs, FDA.)
.... Sharing is the concept here.
Sharing is not what manufacturers or government agencies usually do.... Their motto was
invented by WCFields: "Never smarten up a chump or give a sucker an even break."
Was born a chump and ever since been trying to smarten up.:D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Over the years been all over the net and dipped in on dozens of forums. This Forum has
never gotten political, and Bill has kept our language and images clean. But one thing more
stands out: There's none of that personal egoism and character assassination here that's
found on so many English speaking sites. Once again, we're pretty unique. Maybe it's our
boats: among the most satisfying, easy on the eye, ever designed. As a design, in its
proportions, A/Cs are the sweetest of any Alberg. Hull lines are pure perfection!
Commander has the edge as a timeless day sailor. imco

Probably won't find this again: there is a pix of an invincible Alberg day-morc
on pg12, post 224, by Skipper Jer -- on the Outboard Discussions thread.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

MORC http://morcracing.org/
Original brochures attracted buyers by stating that Ariel/Commander's are class boats
designed to the Midget Ocean Racer Cruiser Rule. Pearson took some liberties with
their rendition of this offshore designation, imco, but this does show our boats' heritage is
in competitive racing.

MORC Vs PHRF 28 posts - sail anarchy forums archived
WillieCrear, posted 18 Nov 2004:
"The MORC Rule rewarded short length, short WL, wide beam, and high boat weight, so
MORC boats tended to have high interior volumes, made them good dual-purpose boats,
that were long-lived due to very sturdy construction.
...For most clubs, PHRF is the only game in town. From my perspective, it promotes
mediocrity on the race course, as boats that win regularly will have their ratings squeezed,
and those that lose chronically will have their ratings loosened.. I swore off PHRF at any
level in 1991, haven't looked back, no regrets. For me, it's MORC, IOR, IMS(what's that?)
or one design."


How do those rating systems and all that stuff work?
http://cs.brown.edu/-jfh/boats/FAQ/node13.html {type the above title into search engine}
IMS..? Get the answer here! John F. Hughes 11/6/1997
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

"Life isn't easy, but sure is a lot of fun." Pedro Castillo.

[roythomas]

I too am a newbie and the good people of this cult will soon have you drinking the Kool-aid! They are knowledgeable and enthusiastic. I have a Commander which I consider floating artwork. I like looking at her almost as much as sailing her.

Where in Long Island are you? I'm in CT, maybe close enough to meet somewhere this summer.

[joeniver]

Thanks roy thomas. I am right across from Bridgeport. In Port Jefferson. Would like to meet. That would be very cool.

[joeniver]

In the inventory of my commander, it lists under Running Rigging: 1 Main halyard consisting of 26 1/2 ' of 1/8 x 7 x 19 Stainless Steel wire and 31' of 3/8 dacron rope and 580W Merriman shackle.

Next is the 1 Jib halyard . . . . .

I can not find the stainless steel wire for either the main or the jib.

Where is it? I have all the Standing Rigging.

I hoisted the main sail with out needing this. What gives?
Newbie in Long Island.

[joeniver]

How long have you been sailing?

[Bill]

Joe, many skippers have switched out their wire halyards for rope. Usually, these are racing skippers, and they made the change because rope halyards are Lighter in weight. Look for any wear or signs of UV degradation to the fibers. Your local chandlery likely has a rope section. Go talk to them about your halyards and how to check for condition.

[joeniver]

Thank you for your response Bill.

So I understand:
Some boats have wire halyards that are used to raise and secure the main sail and jib.

The only Stainless Steel wire I have on my Commander is the 8 standing rigging wire pieces: Fore, Aft, 3 Port, and 3 Starboard.

The inventory shows (I love this manual) wire halyard for the Main and wire halyard for the Jib, in addition to the rope halyards.
So either my boat had wire at one time, and now has rope, or was always rope.

On a different note, how was the wire halyard pulled and secured? Is there a picture on the Forum?

thanks

[Tom K]

The "wire" halyards are not completely wire. They are about half wire and half rope. The wire is spliced into the rope so that once the sail is hoisted, the halyard from the masthead to just shy of the winch (if using a mast mounted winch) is wire. This way you handle the rope part of the halyard, not the wire part.

[joeniver]

Thanks tom. I like my rope!

[joeniver]

Looking thru the inventory of my Commander, I see the terms: 1 ea. Block DSB3. 1 ea. Block DL3. D.N.R. 3/8 x 1 1/2 SS Pin:
Stop Sail
I do not know what these terms mean.
Thanks

[Caferacer59]

they mean go sailing. Paint the bottom. Go sail. :-)

[joeniver]

Come on Caferacer! Jumping on the bandwagon!
I need some help guys. 2 years ago, I though a sheet was something on a bed!
AND: My Commander was pretty much all taken apart for a restoration that never happened. I am having a tough time figuring out where things go.

[Lucky Dawg]

So are you looking for where to attach different blocks, pins, etc? I googled those terms and didn't hit on anything. Maybe PO's homemade terms to ID blocks in their brain? I can show you where various blocks are on Lucky Dawg, but in my experience here, different folks have things set up differently. That is tough task to reattach mid-restoration-removed hardware! It was hard on my resto and I had photos and attachment locations with measurements location of damn near everything. Some photos maybe of what your present layout is? Pretty helpful group, but your question might not have indicated the extent / focus of help you are needing!

All of my deck hardware - probably labeled with my own shorthand code....

10032

[joeniver]

There is a track on port and starboard that is 122 inches long. It has one block on it. I believe that this is if you are flying a Spinnaker or Genoa?

The other item is just a couple of inches long. I do not know what it is or where it goes.

10034

10033

Some things are labeled, like chocks and cleats.

[Lucky Dawg]

Yep, I use that track for my genoa (I use it for my jib too - though another cabin top track might be more efficient). Slide the block attached so that the luff of the sail is roughly in line with your jib sheet under sail. I can't ID the other piece of hardware. Your main winch goes where the leaf is - with backing plate! Some of those blocks may be for your traveler?

Check Mephisto Cat thread for some jib track discussion http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1552-Commander-155-Mephisto-Cat. See Post #96

Jerry has a lot of detail pix in C147 thread http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1972-Commander-147http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1972-Commander-147

I didn't know squat when I started - not a helluva lot more now, but C65 was in really nice shape to begin with - I've done a lot of work on her since, all trial and error... A good many detail pix in Lucky Dawg thread http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot Check pic in post 182 for how that jib track looks under sail http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot&p=23641#post23641

A ton more examples of digging in here - Ebb, Mike's 227, Tim, Chance + many more. Use google and type "site:pearsonariel.org "whatever you're looking for"" if the search function here doesn't show what you want. (Above should show site colon Pearson... auto correct putting in an emoji that won't go away!)

[Bill]

See the discussion of using Google to search the board that's in the Off Topic forum. It will decipher the emoje in the above post . . .

[joeniver]

Very helpful. Will digest!

[ebb]

Since nobody's ventured a spot on that nicely made object on post #46

and I don't know, having never seen one, but It's obviously a tool

-- it's hard to guess because we don't know how zoomed the image is

-- but it might be a key to open and close the threaded cover

of a deckplate, or deck fill, that has matching holes...
.
.
.

[Bill]

I'd vote for the deck lid key option . . .

[Bisquit]

That is most definitely a key for removing a deck fill cap.

http://www.basspro.com/Sea-Dog-Stainless-Steel-Deck-Plate-Key/product/1509211104/?hvarAID=shopping_googleproductextensions

[joeniver]

I also found another key. Different, so I am hoping that one of the containers is new: Water or waste.

Thanks

[joeniver]

Putting Commander #38 in the water tomorrow. Nervous as all heck. What it it sinks! Then I have to motor to my mooring which is at another harbor . . . . couple of miles. Probably will wait till Wednesday, as wind is going to be 27 knots gusting to 35.

Going to look silly as my mast will not be up. Will step it on the mooring on a calm day. On the hard, have raised it up and down three times, so getting the hang of it. Will post pictures.

[ebb]

Everything will be fine.

It'll be a beautiful day.

Get splashed aboard the boat,

take a quick peek around below

as she hits her element...

YES, pictures!

[joeniver]

Boat is in the water. No Leaks!

[joeniver]

the picture of the three fitting: the two on the right have broken. What should I replace them with.http://www.pearsonahttp://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/images/attach/jpg.gifriel.org/discussion/images/attach/jpg.gif

The ring goes in the middle fitting behind the jam cleat.

[joeniver]

Raising the mast on the water. Had to wait till the ferry went by. Big waves.


The pulleys are 10". Not for the movement but so that the stays do not get a kink in them.


All material was stuff that I had on hand except for the pulleys. The winch is from the trailer for the tender. Did not have to use stainless as this is stored in the garage.


Had to buy a couple more ratchet straps. Bought some galvanized shackles. Had the 4 x 4s left from a garden project.


All hardware for Port and Starboard are attached to a piece of Aluminum angle iron. This is bolted to the three chain plates. The feet of the 2 x 4's are attached to the angle iron with a short piece of chain.


A frame comes apart for transporting it. My tender is a 15' Chrysler Mutineer. Fits lots of stuff.


As the mast comes up, the A frame goes down toward the bow.


Used Halyards for safety and for main pull line.


Need some fine turning.

[joeniver]

Dear MDB Mike Sea Glass "or" Anyone:
your numbers/letters on the side are VA 4948A F I am in NY and have my boat registered at DMV. Can I just paint the numbers on by the sticker? NY xxxxxxxxxxxx?
Are the numbers and/or letters just the number on the boat registration?

Also, is there a font size and font type that I should use? Color?

Thanks
Joe Niver Commander #38

[Bill]

Stick on numbers are easiest way to go. For New York, something such as: NY XXXX AB. Check the other boats in your marina.

[joeniver]

After working on my commander since November 2016, I raised a main sail and sailed down Port Jefferson Harbor!

Wow. What a feeling@!

[Bill]

Congratulations!

[Lucky Dawg]

Congrats Joe. Enjoy!

[joeniver]

I have a lot to learn about this nice boat. Especially how to rig it!
Thank god for Pearsonariel.org.

[Lucky Dawg]

Wow! Not sure what all you have going on there! I'm not a sheet trim expert, but in the last pic, it looks like either your outhaul (attached to the clew) or your main sheet was too tight when you raised your sail. Ease both, get the head of the main to the top of the mast track and then adjust your outhaul to trim! Lucky Dawg has a Cunningham that fine tunes the luff of the main. Dunno what you have. Send pix and we'll chime in on rigging.

But... sailing with a floppy sail beats not sailing!

10095

[Lucky Dawg]

You'll also appreciate a sail track stop. Not cheap at $50, but it slides up your mast track and then when you turn the thumb screw just above the first screw head in the mast track (blue arrow), it'll keep the slides in a nice column ON the track when you drop the main - and they'll rise up the track without your assistance when you raise the main. (It stays locked in that place all season / until you remove your main)
10096 10097

[ebb]

...........

[Bisquit]

The requirement is for 3" block letters in a color that contrasts to the hull (they are not required in some states when the boat is documented by the USCG). The 3" sticky letters Bill mentioned are the easiest way to go and are available at most chandleries. They are your registration number with a state prefix.

[joeniver]

lost boom attachment slider. where can i buy another one

This is where the boom attaches to the track on the mast. It is a piece of hardware like the metal grabs on the Main sail leech (or luff? -- lots to learn) that attaches and slides up and down the mast.

[Bill]

I believe that Lucky Dog posted a photo above of the hardware in question. These should be available at any chandlery or marine supply store.

[Bisquit]

If this is what you are looking for I do not need this one. I'll drop it in the mail for you.

10100

10101

10102

[Bill]

I have no problem posting to your thread.

[joeniver]

posting to my own thread. did a reply to thread not a reply with quote. and it worked, after prompting me to log in.

[joeniver]

reply after already being logged in works!!!!

[joeniver]

I was flying! A little scared. Will my commander capsize?

[joeniver]

Which will make handling the boat easier?

Another question I have is about where the main sail comes down to and where does the goose-neck go on the Sail track--how high above the deck? I would think about where the main sail hangs at. But not if you want to have options when sailing.

I have the mast goose neck connector thanks to Bisquit.

Another question: At what point, when sailing along and I get a gust of wind, will the commander capsize if I can not dump the wind in time? Does the rub rail have to be under water, or can it be before that?

I was a little scared sometime before I took the below picture.

-joe

[Bill]

If you don't reef in a brisk breeze you can sail along with the water running up against the cockpit combings :eek: Even in 50 knot gusts, we've never managed to broach the boat. Maybe if we were using a spinnaker it would be possible.

[joeniver]

Jib Location
What is the correct location to put the jib? Somewhere inbetween or all the way to the mast head or all the way to the bow stem.
It does not reach all the way. It is 18” from reaching the headboard.

[joeniver]

Cotter Keys—also called something pins?--and Turn buckles
For the cotter keys that go thru the threaded rods of the turnbuckles on the shrouds and the two stays, what is the purpose: To keep the rods from un-threading all the way to the bottom (or top) and not going thru the female threaded parts, “OR” to keep the threaded rods from making a single turn. If one single turn, how is the cotter key left? Sticking out past the edge of the turnbuckle side?

Tape wrapping of turnbuckles
How does the tape get wrapped: All around the turnbuckle or something else?

[joeniver]

Position of the mast and the tension of the Stern and bow stays

How to tension the Stays and Shrouds so they are not too tight or not too loose. Need a ballpark way of telling. Like, standing next to it, grab it and pull it to you. If it moves more than six inches then it is too loose. What is a good way to judge.

Should the mast be exactly perpendicular to the water or leaning to the stern? I do not want to bend the mast for performance. That will be a couple of years. In general, where should the mast be leaning as related to Bow and Stern.

[joeniver]

Hi All:

Please answer my newbie questions #76 #78 #79 #80.

Bisquit answered that a Boom Vang is 1st thing to do before a Cunningham.

Ebb: Your right! Slap on some anti-fouling and sail her! 3 times a week at least. Work 4 to midnight. Days are great!

[Bill]

Joe, we've posted a note in the Technical forum on adjusting your rigging.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2780-Setting-a-c-rig-tension&p=28107#post28107

[joeniver]

Thanks Bill:
How to I measure the tension on the stay. All the force gauges are over $100.00.
Any way that is trusted, but less expense?
Thanks
joe

[Bill]

FYI - The standard Loose gauge can be found on the Internet for around $80.

[joeniver]

Hi Sailors:
my question is, as a new sailor < 2 yearsd experience, is it better to learn on a fixed gooseneck commander or a sliding gooseneck?

I have all the fittings and lines to go either way.

It sure seems complicated.