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commanderpete
10-23-2002, 07:43 AM
Seems to be big winds every weekend around here.

Very few boats out. Those that venture out often fly just a scrap of their roller furling genoa. I never liked sailing that way.

But, Carl Alberg designed his boats with a giant mainsail. Even with a reef in the main, its still alot of sail.

Unfortunately, I only have one set of reef points in my sail. When the wind pipes up, the boat is rail down. There is alot of weather helm and the stern gets squirelly in the waves.

I could have the sailmaker add another set of reef points. But, 20% less sail would probably handle only another 5 kts of wind.

Anybody use a storm trysail?

Any heavy weather techniques people want to share?

They tell me San Francisco gets a little wind.

Bill
10-23-2002, 08:14 AM
Funny, we always sail "rail down." :) Ed is the best one to discuss heavy weather rig tuning to reduce weather helm. His knowledge is also in the manual. My experience has been that one reef and a 110% jib are ok up to about 40 knots. After that, you may not want to be sailing to weather :p

commanderpete
10-23-2002, 10:09 AM
40 knots?!!!

I've been in 40 knots with just a reefed main. The leeward winch drags through the water. You can walk on the coaming boards. From the cabin, you can see green water through the porthole. Looks like an aquarium.

The crew starts to complain, buncha whimps.

Bill
10-23-2002, 11:29 AM
Hey, it's no fun unless the water is coming over the coamings and into the cockpit . .:p

Theis
10-23-2002, 12:11 PM
I have two sets of reef points, one reducing the sail area 20% and one reducing it 40%. I don't recall in recent years using the second set, but if a big T storm set in, I would go down to the second set with no jib. From there I could use a fisherman's reef (main luffing along the luff, but full astern). I try to always carry some sail.

Be aware that there are no standards for reef points as to how much sail is dropped. The way I settled on my 20%/40%, as I recall, was by asking the sailmaker what ocean sailors did, and was told that they have three sets, at 15%, 30% and 45%. With two, I split the high number, more or less.

Remember that it is not just the sail area that is reduced but the height of the remaining sail area on the mast. This eases the torque.

Bill
10-23-2002, 01:20 PM
Hey, Alberg did not design his boats for sissies. You sail full up into the teeth of the gale. None of this 15%, 30%, 45% stuff. Why else sail a Commander to Greece? :D

Theis
10-23-2002, 05:50 PM
Agreed! He designed them well, and with a degree of prudence they can take almost anything other than striking terra firma. Out there in the Bay you have the pleasure of reasonably consistent 35 knot winds and know what you are getting into for the next couple hours. You can just trim down and lean the good ship over. Here, in the hinterlands, the wind can change from 5 knots to who knows how much in seconds with the arrival of a front. Then down to ten knots, then up to 70 knots. No precision, no certainty. No time to adjust for too much wind after it hits. Adjustments have to be made in anticipation beforehand (unless you are racing in which case you take your chances and replace spars and sails as needed). Often weather forecasts are useless. And the wave action can be significant. And we have lightning, thunder, and anvil shaped black clouds that go beyond 90,000 feet that would scare a witch. Further, there is a big difference between having the rail in the water, having the windows in the water, and having the cockpit coaming under water. Lastly, buying a new spar is too expensive. Have I made the case for reef points?

Bad weather sailing is neither fun nor sailing and generally is to be avoided, if possible - but it is awesome - if prepared (Perhaps the expression that "I am getting too old for that" is appropriate). As for sailing in reasonably steady winds, it is fun to have the rail in the water, or the window being washed - unless you are involved in the dating game when there are other considerations.

commanderpete
10-24-2002, 07:06 AM
Sometimes the hardest part of sailing in high winds is getting the sail up and down singlehanded. In rough conditions, the boat doesn't want to stay in the wind. Trying to wrestle that flogging sail into submission can be an adventure. Would be real easy to fall off the boat.

Here is a great photo of a folkboat in heavy weather.

commanderpete
10-24-2002, 09:23 AM
Say Bill, with the rigid vang, is the boom as steady when you lower the sail, or does the boom bounce around more than with a topping lift?

Bill
10-24-2002, 10:05 AM
Steady as she goes . . just tighten up and all vertical motion ends. Side to side (if boat is rolling)is another matter. A preventer will minimise this action.

Most of us can raise, lower and reef our mains from the cockpit. The jib is a different challenge. I'm planning to work with a rigger on a dousing set up that can be used from the cockpit, but this is currently a low priority. Right now, I'm working on replacing the backstay chainplate. Film at five on this one . . .

commanderpete
10-24-2002, 02:24 PM
Something like this for a jib downhaul?

http://bosunsupplies.com/Downhaul.cfm

Dave
10-24-2002, 03:09 PM
Ok. Two questions:
Do you guys REALLY sail the boat with water flowing over the side decks? I mean, I've dipped the rail under, but a steady 35 degree heel?
Regarding reefing the main on my Ariel: I have never used the roller boom set up, don't even know if it works and don't want to. I have a ram's horn (hook) to hold the luff cringle and a line rove though the leech cringle round a turning block on the boom to a cleat halfway along the boom.
In order to hook the luff cringle to the ram's horn, I have to release a stop at the bottom of the mast track, drop out a few sail slides and close the stop. This prevents me from setting up single line jiffy reefing.
What do you guys do to get the slides free of the track -- or do you just let them stack up and create a lump of sail cloth above the gooseneck?
Finally, I'm thinking of buying a loose-footed main. You folks have any experience with them on these boats? (I recall that you use one, Bob).
--Dave G Ariel 357

Bill
10-24-2002, 03:14 PM
Pete,

Yes, that looks like it should do it. May have also seen the same drawing in either a Harkin or Schaffer cataloge.

Bill
10-24-2002, 03:19 PM
Sorry to say, sometimes we're just too lazy or too hypothermic to remember to reef the main and we go along for miles with the top rail way under the water :(

Loose footed mains are highly recommended. Ed would agree, but he's working the Giants' home games this week and is out of touch:p

Theis
10-25-2002, 05:25 AM
Some alternative ideas:

I have all my lines going to the mast, not the cockpit. I can stand up at the mast with something very solid to cling to. I can't do that in the cockpit with the boat healing way over.

Dropping sails only gets you half way there. The biggest time burner and challenge is securing the sails to keep them out of the water, particularly the foresail. It takes only two seconds to drop the foresail. But many minutes to pick it up out of the water. Being on the foredeck, I can control that it lands on the deck and, in a blow, secure it to the bow pulpit or take it off.

The same problem exists for the mainsail. I have to tie it up to see where I am going (although lazy jacks might help there but that is just more clutter). So no matter how I cut it, I can't sit in the cockpit and drop sails while drinking beer. I have to move my body.

One other point. How much clutter do you want lying where? With the lines on the mast, they are out of sight and away, all at one point. On the cabin top they are just something more to get caught/snagged. My cockpit is already reasonably busy.

As for roller reefing, Dave, I have tried it and don't like it at all. Perhaps in an emergency, it is better than nothing, but it unravels. My reefing rig has two lines through the boom to the outhaul, one line for each of the two sets of reefpoints. They are secured at the forward part of the boom, right next to the hooks. When I reef, I do take sliders off the mast track as appropriate (another reason why everything is at the mast). I can tell you more about that if interested. I strongly recommend battens that are parallel to the boom (SORC), not perpendicular to the leech . It makes for easier reefing and securing of the dropped mainsail.

Pete, you raised an interesting question about how to control the boat while you are doing all these things. Impossible in my experience without tying the tiller - which at best is only marginal. Last year I used a Davis Tiller Tamer. If everything goes right, it gives you enough time to drop the main and the jib (and keep them out of the water) before running back and resetting the boat direction (and that timing includes using a tether when going forward). If it doesn't go as planned, it might take two trips. The Tiller Tamer, unfortunately, slips and, although better than nothing, or a tying a rope around the tiller and cleating it, is less than desireable.

The best alternative is an Autohelm. That makes raising and lowering sails a piece of cake. Take your time. Even sit on the foredeck and relax. If you get the remote control and have it mounted or carry it forward, you can even change the boat direction - a bit up wind, a bit more offwind - while you are on the foredeck. It is really like having a second person on board.

As for the loose footed main, I think that is the way everyone is going - or so I have been told. I have one and it works like a champ. Just be sure, if you do that, that you have a slider at the outhaul to hold the outhaul down (My sailmaker did not put one one initially and it took some time before I recognized what I was missing).

Hope that helps.

commanderpete
10-25-2002, 06:16 AM
I usually take two or three sail track slides off when I reef the main. I dont think there is any way to avoid that. I usually reef the main at the dock before I go out.

When the main is reefed, dropping it and gathering it in is a bit easier in high winds.

It also helps to keep the sail track lubricated so that the sail drops freely and you dont have to pull the last of the sail down.

I'll have to give an autohelm some thought. Once you drop the main and leave the tiller, the wind and waves quickly cause the boat to bear off. The wind catches the sail. Any part of the sail that isnt secure yet will fill up and flog unmercifully. Its like laundry in a Kansas tornado. Now you're standing on the cockpit seats trying to wrestle the enraged beast. That's the part I dont like.

Once I drop the main, I just try to quickly stuff as much sail as I can into a pocket and get the first sail tie on. You just want to get it under control before the wind rips it out of your hands.

You can sail the boat all day long at a 35 degree heel. Its not fast or comfortable and puts undue stress on the sails and rigging. You also tend to spill more beer.

But, its comforting to know you have all that ballast down there.

We'll have to see what Ed says. He's probably got his boat anchored outside the ballpark hoping to catch a Barry Bonds homer.

Bill
10-25-2002, 10:29 AM
One possible solution to taming the main is to go with the Dutchman system. It's like having lazy jacks built into the sail. The main drops neatly down onto the boom. No place else to go because of the lines going from the topping lift to the boom through the sail. Tighten up the reefing lines and away you go . .

As for the head sail, the above pictured jib down haul along with keeping one of the sheets tight, should take care of that sail.

With the above systems and all lines to the cockpit, contrary to Peter's position, seems a lot safer to me.

glissando
10-25-2002, 11:47 AM
Commanderpete,

You need a jackline on your mainsail if you have to remove slides when you reef. The jackline will eliminate this annoyance.

The jackline is simply a line that runs through the lower sail slides and allows the sail to be pulled further down the mast (ie to the reefing horns) than it normally could with the slides impeding its progress. When the sail is raised all the way, the jackline becomes taut and holds the slides tightly to the mast. But as you lower the sail, the line becomes looser and you have some slack to allow you to pull the sail away from the mast and down to the reefing horn, while leaving the slides in place.

This photo sort of shows the jackline on Glissando. You can see how the bottom of the sail is pulled away from the mast--see the white line there? That's the jackline.

Any sailmaker can do this (if they don't know what a jackline is, then go to another sailmaker!), or it would be easy enough to do if your're one of those who likes to sew. (Why do I think you're not?):D

Tim

Ed Ekers
10-25-2002, 12:49 PM
Hi Guys, I see my name in hear a couple of times so I thought I would throw in a couple of words. First - HOW ABOUT MY GIANTS! One more win and we are the world champs. Anyone what to talk baseball lets start a new thread - I hate the dodgers...

On heavy weather sailing I agree with Skipper Theis. Sailing a strong steady wind is a lot more comfortable than having to deal with those shifting twisting squalls. I sailed all around the Maryland area for three years and used to hate seeing those damn thunder heads come rolling in.

For me out here I will go though a few regular steps as the wind builds. The first thing we will do is start pulling on halyards. Pathfinder will stay on her feet in 25knts with a full main and class jib but we need to get the drafts on the sails forward to get rid of the helm pressure. As we go along we will start opening up the tops of the sails. For the jib the leads will come aft to spill out some pressure. For the main, after the halyard taught the vang goes on hard (flat sail). If we are in semi smooth water we will ease the sheet to get some twist. If the water is getting pretty raunchy we will travel up and ease the sheet to get more twist at the top and pull down on the cunningham to keep a forward draft. The sail will flog a bit at the top but we will still have good forward bite through the water. All these adjustments are being made to keep her sailing on her lines. Thirty degrees of heel is exciting but after a bit the legs start to cramp up, the crew complains about getting wet and the boat says why are you doing this to me. More on another page.......ed

Ed Ekers
10-25-2002, 12:49 PM
I have done a number of single handed sails/races over the years but have been to cheap top buy an auto pilot so I rig up my own system. I simply rig a bungy cord across the cockpit that holds the tiller in place with a little give from the stretch of the cord to keep her from going to one side and staying there. I then have a small line tied to the cord that runs up to the bow. When I have needed this system to keep her in a straight line it has always been when I have needed to go forward for some reason. If the weather helm starts to turn the boat I will just grab the trim line with my foot and give it a bit of a tug to get her to drive back down. Allows me to keep my hands free. After releasing the trim line the bungy cord will pull the tiller back center and I have another minute or so before we need to trim her up again.

Not the best system in the world but it's cheap (like me) and it works (for me). But if there is a Santa and you see him would you please let him know that I would love an Auto Helm........more later.......ed

Ed Ekers
10-25-2002, 01:13 PM
One more post from me about when we go through the task of reefing. I like Bill have all our lines go to the cockpit for our main. Over the years we have put reef in and out too many times to even think about how often Some times in one race we will do it as many as six or seven times. We use a jiffy reefing system were we will lower the halyard to a mark we have made and then just cleat her off. By simply pulling on the luff and leech pre rigged lines the process is done. with the addition of the rigged vang, the boom no longer lies in the cockpit. With our and Bills system a reef can be put in and done in a little as one minute or less. To shake it we just release the luff and leech and grind the main back up.

The one thing I like about our system is both my wife and I stay in the cockpit. If the reef is going in there is a good chance the winds are over 35 knots and the sea is rough. It is not a time that I or the wife should be taking the undue risk of walking around up forward. In terms of the jib I will leave it up as long as the boat seems to be under my control. I know from experience the in a hard wind and very rough water the boat needs that jib to keep us going forward. Without it Pathfinder tends to just stall.

I recall one day a couple of years back where we were making our way back home from a cruise up one of the many rivers that feed in to the bay. We spent well over eight hours on starboard tack in winds of 45+ knots set up with a 20% reef and the class jib. We were one of only a very few boats one the water but other than getting wet our little yacht handled it just fine. I on the other hand said to myself at least a hundred times what the hell are we doing out here and thank god we are on our Ariel....ed

Theis
10-25-2002, 05:21 PM
Interesting comments and insight.

As to the Autohelm, I was admonished last year when I took my 1,500 mile trip because I didn't have one. I considered it a luxury and one of those "I don't really need it" items. Today, on the Great Lakes, I consider it a safety necessity for single handed sailing which is what I think people were telling me before.

As for what happens when the sails are down, I always start the motor and have it in slow forward before dropping sails to maintain stearage. Plus, I don't want to drop the sails and then have the motor fail to start.

Yes, the Ariel can be knocked down by the wind. It has happened to Solsken once - fortunately only for a short period of time - but it was a very memorable time - in very confined waters bounded by rocks and cliffs. The water does not go into the cabin, but the coaming is well under water (and, in my case, the mainsail split in two).

Ed, what do you mean by a class jib? Is that the 3/4 70% jib that is Ariel standard which I call a storm jib (and which I also have 50% reef points on)?

One concern about a loose footed main and a rigid preventer/vang. The vang is putting pressure on the middle of the boom where it becomes a fulcrum. Aren't you concerned about breaking/bending the boom in a blow, or do you replace the standard issue with the high tech carbonfiber "T" booms?

I particularly appreciate your relating wind velocities to the amount of sail you carry, and hope you are not exagerating (Some sailors do, you know). I am not certain I am as bold as you guys are. Or perhaps the fifteen foot plus waves that accompany 40 mph winds on Lake Michigan are what frighten me and everyone else away.

In the Bay area you do have one problem Great Lakes sailors don't face - cold water. Lake Michigan water in the summer is in the high 60's and 70's so a splash is not debilitating - it can be refreshing. In the Bay, the water is numbing and I can understand why you don't want to go forward and face a splash. Plus, I think your wave lengths may be shorter or steeper or something as well, making for more splash.

Theis
10-26-2002, 06:08 AM
I was musing over the night Ed's and my comments about wind speed.

What is strange to me, as I look back, is that in the sixties and seventies, before all this fancy gear, I would never hesitate to go out when there were small craft warnings (25K to 35K). Gales (35K to 45K) I tried to avoid but so be it if I get caught (and this was sailing the Ariel).

Today, reflecting back, I have trouble believing I did those things. I tend to criticize myself believing I must remember wrong, or be exaggerating but I know I am not. Today, equipped with better gear, better sails, and more experience (but am older), I avoid small craft warnings. What makes this more unbelievable to me today, is that no one else goes out when the winds get in the 25K to 35K range. I have done it for short periods a couple times in the past couple years for one reason or another and I am alone out there and don't really enjoy it - although it is exciting. But then I sail alone most often, and in earlier years I was in the dating game.

commanderpete
10-26-2002, 09:17 AM
Yeah, its good to avoid steep breaking waves. I always keep a sharp lookout.

Artist's rendering:

Ed Ekers
10-26-2002, 10:10 AM
Theis, I wish we enjoyed the water temps that you have there in the summer. The going forward in a splash is the least of our worries. It is going over that creates the biggest concern. Five minutes in the water could end up in a body recovery. IN fact just two years ago that very thing happened to one of our racing Ariels. Crew slipped while on the foredeck and ended in the lost of life. SO anything I can do to keep us all safe is always on my mind.

IN terms of wind speed on the average day in SF we will have small craft warnings. While there are areas where you can find shelter the wind is in the 20-30 knot range every day in the central bay. We will not have any large swells rolling through but we will experience waves that are steep and squared in the 3-6 foot range.

On Pathfinder we have the standard boom with all our lines internal for reef and outhaul. We do have a lose footed main and I meant to mention that I agreed that the clew is a weak link and could be pulled out. TO counter this I have a strip of Velcro that we wrap around the boom and passes though the clew It is relaxed enough so it does not bind up and allows the outhaul to be adjusted. I do have concern about putting a kink in the boom with the vang since it can place a large load on it with very little effort. In fact the first sail (race) with the new vang we did have it loaded up during a jibe and ended up yanking the goose neck right off the mast. So out came a sail tie (gasket) strapped it back on and sailed off the wind all the way home.

When I refer to our class jib I am talking about a jib that measures appx. 90%+/-
It is the class legal jib we use for racing. On Pathfinder we use a triradial cut jib that is referred to as a deck sweeper. More sail surface low than high.

I can't agree with you more on when to go out and sail and under what type of conditions I would prefer to be out in. I have told people for years that the one thing about racing yachts is that is teaches you things and puts you places that you would not normally do as a matter of routine. I sometimes hate going to a dentist (something that I carry from my youth) but if it is one the calendar I will show up. I approach racing the same way. If I am scheduled to race on the calendar I will show up. I may not want to go out there but I have a great high when we get back and some how convince myself that it wasn't all that bad. The one thing that I always keep in mind though is what will Pathfinder act like when we get out there. There is no reason to put her through something just for the sake of a trophy. We can enjoy each other just as much sitting at the dock and watching other boats come home all busted up.

Ed Ekers
10-26-2002, 10:18 AM
Theis, again I failed to mention one more point. Your point on bending the boom. After pulling the goose neck I looked over the whole rig and decided for me the best was to avoid it happening again was do design in a weak link. So now where our vang connects to its mount on the boom I reduced the size of the shackle and now in theory this shackle will fail before anything else gives was. SO far so good just have to remember to ease the vang before a jibe.

Theis
10-28-2002, 06:16 PM
Hey Ed. HOW ABOUT THOSE GIANTS!

You mentioned that you broke a goosneck. Was that the original type or these new fixed mount types? Last summer I broke the gooseneck with an inadvertent jibe while I was using a preventer. I guess it might be good that the gooseneck is the weakest point so that you don't bust the boom. I wonder if the fixed goosenecks where cunninghams are used rather than downhauls are so rigid that they wouldn't give, and the boom would be the weak link.

As for your cold water and the waves.. The cold water protects you against the wave actrion. When the high warm winds whistle over the cold water, a blanket of cold air over the water isolates the lighter warmer air from the water and protects the buildup of waves. This is the situation we have on the Lakes in the spring. In the fall, however, we have cold air over warm water. The heavy cold air digs under the warm air, and contacts the water and builds immense seas - seas that sank the Carl Bradley and Edmond Fitzgerald. So there is a downside to warm water.

But on the whole, the warm, fresh, clean, clear water, coupled with wonderful beaches, high sand dunes, forests, and tuck away harbors can't be topped.

On a sad note, Solsken gets pulled tomorrow to be high and dry for the next seven months. A sad time of the year.

Ed Ekers
10-29-2002, 07:52 AM
Theis,
The goose neck that broke was the old style. We now have a fixed mount. I am not sure that this is better but at least It is attached. All we did to make it fixed was add some ears to the original hardware and then mounted it to the mast.

Water water every where, the best thing said for this is what ever the water is we get to sail in it. Warm, cold or something in between the boats don't seem to mind.
Sorry to hear that it is time for you guys to haul out again. I will be thinking about you guys while we are out there using our genoas. This is the one time of year that the winds die down and we get to pull out the big sails and use them. It is also the time that we have to pay a lot more attention to the bay currents.

With our lighter winds and strong bay currents there are times that we will be finding ourselves going backwards. Still have plenty of racing to do but we add some rode to the anchor lines so when we hit those spots with big current and lite winds we will drop the hook and hang there until something changes.

As for those giants ---- wait till next year.......ed

commanderpete
10-29-2002, 08:08 AM
How would you like to have to negotiate this inlet?

Ed Ekers
10-29-2002, 09:50 AM
Hey Pete,
Do you know where the picture is from? I know of three places one the left coast that often get like this. Morro Bay (central Calif.), Columbia River bar (Oregon) and the waters of the SF Bay (just outside the Golden Gate). I suspect there are a number of very tough inlets up in Washington as well........ed

P.S. - here is on for you-- http://www.saillinks.com/

it is slow but check the pic at the bottom of the page - it is a SAnta Cruz 50

Bill
10-29-2002, 11:03 AM
The photo of the large yacht hitting a wave was, I believe, taken near Morro Bay in the 1980's. It made the front cover of a boating mag at the time.

Theis
10-30-2002, 05:41 AM
I find that most curious that your winds lighten up in the fall, while for us fall is the windy season. Spring here tends to have lower winds (and more fog). I wonder to what extent the winds in the Bay and the Lake are caused by the temperature differential between the air and the land/water more than by weather patterns in general.

As for taking the boat out of the water, it might have been good I did. Earlier, in another thread on this discussion group I inquired about the life of the stays. The conclusion was that, when they fail, they fail catastrophically. No slow strand by strand.

After the mast came down I checked the stays, particularly at the masthead. On the backstay, the most dangerous to experience a failure, right at the swage fitting, one strand was broken and the cable was coming untwisted. So next year, new stays. I would say I got the full life out of these.

As for the picture of the motorboat entering something, there is a chain of fishmarkets on the west coast, I believe it is called the Fishmarket, that has that picture posted as above the order counter - but with no explanation.

Attached is a picture of Grand Haven on the east side of Lake Michigan in one of last year's storms. This picture, incidentally, was from a California paper.

As for the Giants, I anticipated that my quip would get your attention and response. No offense.

Ed Ekers
10-30-2002, 06:52 AM
Theis,
As far as the wind patterns go for the SF Bay you are right on when you talk about the temp differential. Out here we often refer to the summer winds as sucking. What we get is a wind that is rushing in to the inland valleys.

Inland running almost the length of California are valleys where the summer temps will stay in the high 80-90's. Along the coast we have a water body know as the Japanese current where the water temp will be in the mid 50-60 degree range. As a result the warm air rising in the valley will "suck" the cool air off the water. Squeeze this cool air through the mouth of the bay at the Golden Gate and you end up with 25 knots. Cool down the valley in the winter and we get the "sea breeze" the will range in at 8-12 knots (minus winter storm fronts). So you are dead on with statement " temperature differential between the air and the land/water more than by weather patterns".

Glad to hear you caught you rigging problem. Surprised to hear it was on the top though. I have found that most the early warning signs in swage fittings show up first at the bottom. Suspect this has to do with water cupping at the bottom and holding there. What ever the case it sounds like it is time to spend money )>: ........ed

commanderpete
10-30-2002, 07:09 AM
My boat is getting all new standing rigging this Winter too. There is a small crack in the bottom swage fitting of the upper shroud. Its been making me nervous. I don't want to worry about catastrophic rig failure, which would probably happen during the most miserable conditions.

Theis, tell us more about that knockdown. Sudden squall? Must have been heap big wind. How much sail did you have up?

Mike Goodwin
10-30-2002, 08:38 AM
The picture of the large powerboat was taken in NJ , I think it was Absecon Inlet or Cape May , the actor George C. Scott was aboard and a number of folks were injured as was the boat .
Photo was run in Cruising World or one of the main rags in the 1980's . I have a copy buried somewhere .

http://luther.trammell.com/images/CloseCall.jpg

The East Coast can get real lumpy too , especially around them inlets

Theis
10-30-2002, 06:57 PM
Ed, my research confirms your thought that the rigging fails at the lower end, where the water collects as it runs down the stay, freezes, etc. That is why I flipped when I saw the failure at the top - there but for the grace of God go I. Maybe this why Bill and others advise replacing them every ten years (on salt water, 20 years on fresh water) and don't look back. When I restored my puppy, I had them inspected by a professional rigger and he said they look fine. Maybe he wasn't a professional rigger.

Pete, replace those stays. The way I figure is that if one looks like it is going, (assuming a car didn't drive over it) they all are because on one boat, they are all crystallizing/corroding at the same rate and all made out of the same material. Whoever makes them for you. let the shop know they are used on the Great Lakes. Apparently the stainless cable used for fresh water is different than for salt water.

Now about, yes, the knockdown. Bill limits me to 10,000 words so I will make this brief, but I have to build an adventure.

It happened in Green Bay. Let me describe the area. Between Green Bay and Lake Michigan, from the Door Peninsula of Wisconsin on the south, to the Garden Peninsula on the north there is a stretch of perhaps 40 miles of water dotted with several islands. Green Bay, at this point might be 20-30 miles wide, east west, with the main body of water largely facing northeast southwest.

About midway in this passage among numerous islands is Rock Island, a wonderful state park. On the west side of the island facing Green Bay are high vertical cliffs. Between Rock Island and Washington Island, the next island to the south, a distance of about one mile, lies a rock shoal connecting the two islands that is impassible. Washington Island itself runs east west at this point, the shoreline forming a high gravel bar wall. Cut out from this gravel bar at one point near the shoal lies the narrow entrance channel to Jackson Harbor, a picturesque, small protected harbor. In short, the only exit from the Rock Island/Washington Island bight was to the west and into the large seas, with the exception of Jackson harbor with its small inlet.

All day it had been raining, overcast and blowing from the northeast, creating large seas in the main body of Green Bay. In the late afternoon, it appeared the wind was abating, and I decided to take the one mile run from Rock Island and return to the protection of Jackson Harbor. With me aboard Solsken were my wife and another couple. There was nothing ominous or chancy about the winds or the seas. They had been steady all day long. The passage was largely protected from the waves by Rock Island.

My recollection was that I was carrying my storm jib and a full main. We left the dock at Rock Island on a reach, and were doing well when the winds started shifting clockwise and the velocity rapidly increased. I tried to dump wind both by letting out the sail and turning more into the wind, but could neither turn fast enough or let out sail fast enough.

By now I could not see shore through the mayhem. Fearing being blown up either against the cliff or into the shoal, (Remember, this predates the GPS) I asked the other guy to grab the anchor so we could just drop hook and ride the blow out. He had no more than opened the lassarette than over we went on our side, the sail solid in the water, the coaming well under water, and the water pouring into the lasarette from which we were trying to grab the anchor. (The water did not go into the cabin) We immediately closed the lasarette and gave up the anchor routine. (The other lady confessed afterwards that her thoughts were about her kids, and how unfortunate they were to be orphans at such a young age).

It was all very fast, but because of the emotional intensity, we have no idea what "fast" really means. It could have been a minute or perhaps fifteen minutes - in that range. We were very busy. You all know how loud a dacron sail is when it is being blasted by the wind. I don't remember ever hearing it, nor does anyone else. When Solsken popped up again after the blast passed, the sail was in two pieces, torn from the leach to the tack. No one had seen it or heard it go. The dinghy that we had been towing was right side up, but totally filled with water. We had a moveable claw on the boom (used with what is a preventer today) and that had been blown off the boom - I don't know how it cleared all the boom fittings, not to mention the topping lift fitting at the end of the boom. No one noticed it go.

My face was pock marked and red. Apparently we had had hail that had been severely pummeling me, but my concentration on handling the situation prevented me from knowing that I was being pounded. I only remember that I had trouble seeing.

We survived obviously. I had an experience that was worth the world that I never want to repeat again. Pulling into the small port of Jackson Harbor (perhaps 6 places for boats to dock), people gathered and commented how, seeing our boat disappear, they had became very concerned.

What happened we will never know for certain. It could have been a microburst. However, subsequently we heard that there were tornado spottings in the northern Greenbay area about the time we were making our short crossing. I think that we were caught up in the tail end of a tornado (they tend to dissipate when they hit water), and that would explain the reason the wind direction was changing so rapidly. A microburst, on the other hand, as I understand it, is a blast largely from one direction.

As for repairing the sail, I learned to sew (The ladies made a point that sewing was not ladies work).

The really good news is that the Ariel can take a knockdown and pop up ready to go again. It takes one humongous blast to knock it over. It doesn't fill with water, unless there are large waves, and then it is just a matter of boarding up the cabin.

So that is the tale - no BS. I even checked this out with my wife.

Now, for me, the unanswered question is whether this could have been a waterspout, of if this is what a waterspout would be like. Generally with a tornado there is an erie green illumination, and this blast did not have that strange glow.

So now you have heard the story. Pete, you need to ask it again in a couple years and see if it comes out the same way and is this abbreviated.

commanderpete
10-31-2002, 07:37 AM
Yowza. Thanks Theis. That's way up there on the pucker scale.

Did that couple ever sail with you again?

How about this picture. This is a huge waterspout photographed by an airplane accompanying a North Atlantic convoy during WW II

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/nws/wea00344.htm

Theis
10-31-2002, 06:38 PM
The guy was an experienced racer, sailing out of Chicago for years before and for a short while after the knockdown. The experience didn't phase him. Sailing was in his blood. Not so for the Missus. She was not a sailor, and to the best of my knowledge never stepped on a boat again (The knockdown event occured on a weekend trip, and the reason we were returning to Washington Island was to get the last ferry back to the mainland so we could be back at work on Monday).

A year or so later they moved down to Dallas and were divorced. And they both lived happily ever after I assume.

But other than for this incident, we had a wonderful sail, hike and weekend. Such is the nature of cruising these ponds out here. Sometimes I think a dragon would be preferable to the junk that gets thrown at sailors from time to time.

Ed Ekers
11-01-2002, 08:46 AM
Commander Pete has in the past asked for sailing stories. I can share one with you (long) that luckily I was not a part of but know it to be true. A good friend of mine was crew on an Express 37 that was doing an ocean race from SF - Santa Barbara. This is a down wind race that has a distance of about 350 miles. It starts off in the SF Bay heads out the gate and then turns left heading south. Just south of Monterey that is an area that is know for very high winds and big rolling seas with breaking waves. It is were the rubber meats the road so to speak.

So the story goes that this particular boat was under full sail on a dead run with the 1 ounce spinnaker up. At around 10pm the boat suffered a round down. This is where the boat will spin out (broach) after doing a uncontrolled jibe. The end result is that you have the boom and the spin pole on the same side of the boat.

There are ways to get out of this but often the easiest and quickest is to just drop the spin and get her back on her feet. In the case of this broach the skipper called for the release of the halyard after about 20 minutes of laying on their side. To the surprise of all when the halyard was released the kite would not come down. It seemed that the thing was jammed at the mast head.

To make a very long story get to the point they stayed on their side for over eight hours. They even got to the point where they were shooting the flare gun at the spin to try to burn it up. All the time they were lying on their side being pulled by the spinnaker with breaking seas coming over their bottom. The only way to get this thing back up was to get this kite off which would have required someone to enter the water (in the dark) go to the mast head and cut the kite. This is just what was done at day light with two other boats standing off to assist it the retrieval of the swimming crew. IN the end all went well but has turned into a local sea tale. The story has grown in drama over the years but the above is accurate from the crew on board and told to me by the guy who ended up in the water cutting the head of the spinnaker. ....ed

commanderpete
11-01-2002, 10:51 AM
Good story Ed. I sometimes wonder if those "deck-sweeper" jibs and genoas might cause a problem in a knockdown (scooping up water).

Only a few more weeks until I have to pull my boat for the winter. They say the weather is going to be rough again this weekend. Getting down into the 30s at night.

The Commander is a real wet boat when it gets rough. Sometimes I wear ski goggles. There was so much spray last time the mainsail was drenched most of the way up.

Here is a weather tip. If you see this coming, shorten sail:

http://cellar.org/2002/stormfront.jpg

Ed Ekers
11-01-2002, 12:09 PM
Pete,
I suppose anything is possible but I have found the biggest issue with any knock down is the wind. Pathfinder has been in it's share of roll downs over the years. If fact if you are in the cockpit and look up to the top of the mast you would see the little wind indicator thing with just one tab. The other arm was ripped off when we laid her down trying to fly the spinnaker in a little to much breeze. I leave the broken part up there to remind me "Don't do it again DUMMY" Still the best thing said for all this heavy weather sailing is from Theis, "The really good news is that the Ariel can take a knockdown and pop up ready to go again". Thank you Mr. Alberg

regarding your attached photo I don't know if I would be thinking of shortin' sail or cleaning my drawers. Bottom line is, this is going to be ugly.......ed

Theis
11-01-2002, 05:18 PM
Ed - your story reminds me of the reason for my safety alert I issued on the pearsonariel website this fall discussing the jamming of my foresail halyard in the masthead block. Probably worse than losing a spar, a jammed halyard with the sail up full is about as frightening as it gets. Incidentally, that is why a hitch should never be put on a halyard cleat with a sail up (which I did until I learned my lesson), but rather wrap the halyard around the cleat. The hitch can jam.

Incidentally, my recommendation is to change drawers after the maelstrom, not before or during.

commanderpete
11-04-2002, 11:17 AM
It doesn't look rough out in this picture, but there is still a bunch of seaweed washed onto the deck and around the mast.

This picture was taken about 25 years ago.

Maybe someday I'll get that dodger.

Tony G
11-04-2002, 09:09 PM
Now that's what I paid to see!

Theis
11-05-2002, 04:59 AM
I have never heard of using seaweed for running rigging. I'm not surprised it shreds in a blow.

No, it doesn't look rough out there. The main isn't even reefed. And the crew is smiling. Are you trying to put something over on us?

commanderpete
11-05-2002, 05:28 AM
I'm gonna have to get a waterproof camera to photograph the rough stuff.


Ahhhh. Memory lane. The little guy on the left, my brother, is now Professor of History at Columbia University.

I still have that old flag. The flag staff cracked off in the holder a few times so its rides a bit lower nowadays.

commanderpete
12-17-2002, 06:18 AM
Wave breaking over the bow. These photos were taken from the oil rig "Hibernia" off Newfoundland.

Theis
12-17-2002, 07:14 AM
You just hope those welds and rivets hold together, and the little puppy doesn't get broadside. A great book, incidentally, is Alan Villiers "Posted Missing" if you are into heavy weather stuff, and how even the big guys can lose.

commanderpete
01-03-2003, 05:57 AM
You would think carrying a spare sail is a good idea while voyaging.

Can you imagine what this rescue cost the taxpayers?


http://www.eastbayri.com/news/2002/1205/Front_Page/001.html

Theis
01-04-2003, 07:01 PM
Probably it doesn't cost much more than a serious search and rescue drill. Remember that it wasn't until the 70s, as I recall, that the Coast Guard would rescue private vessels. Up to that time they only recsuced commercial vessels. Then the law was changed so they would assist all vessels in distress. Consider the cost as being paid for by the commercial shipping industry and the Boating Industry Association that sells the boats that fail (further, the Coast Guard has to be there regardless, and the more practice they get, the better they get). At least that is the way I see it.

commanderpete
01-07-2003, 05:09 AM
A couple of tough blokes in this story.


http://www.issumacorp.com/rhudson/orbitlog/OrbitsLastVoyage.htm

Theis
01-07-2003, 07:40 PM
That is a fascinating tale. It almost sounds like they were out for an ultimate challenge. They headed out into the North Atlantic, way north, in the late fall. Wow. That is adventure. Then, they expected a dinghy to serve as a life raft in that environment. If a wave can roll the yacht, I would think it would do much more than that to a dinghy. For those that were asking about bilge pumps, there is an important lesson there. Also a lesson for those that were asking about battery placement.

D. Fox
01-09-2003, 07:02 AM
Theis, the USCG and its predecessor (US Life Saving Service) have never made a distinction between commercial and non-commercial vessels when performing search and rescue. I'm not sure what legislation you're referring to but would be interested in finding out. I agree with you that, in this case, the cost was probably negligible as the cutter was already at sea; the only impact was probably that it couldn't perform its patrol. Other SAR ops ARE often very expensive, particularly when they involve aircraft.

Dan

Mike Goodwin
01-09-2003, 03:30 PM
USCG

Actually the Coast Guard has 3 predecessors;
The Revenue Cutter Service
The Light House Service
And the Lifesaving service

With the clouds of war on the horizon, they were all combined in 1939 to form the Coast Guard as we know it . Since they were all under the Dept. of Treasury is was an easy merge .

It was under Ronnie Raygun that it was ruined and made traffic cops of the sea , losing the sight of their original service missions .

They tell you to call SeaTow nowdays .

Theis
01-09-2003, 05:36 PM
Au contraire, Sir. The US Coast Guard did differentiate, by law. In the sixties, I can state from personal experience that they had no duty towards pleasure cruisers. Their life saving mission was only for commercial endeavors, and when they helped a private yacht, they were volunteering, and it was outside their mission. I am not saying they did not help private boaters on occasion, but I am saying that they had no duty to do so, and when they did do so, it was outside their budget and authority (In the sixties, I was helped by the USCG on a couple occasions, so I know they did help when they felt like it, and didn't when they didn't feel like it. I know of a person that drowned because of the policy).

I recall after being pulled off a beach on a northerly Lake Michigan Island (and that was my Ariel that went aground) we met our USCG rescue crew in a bar, and they had an wonderful time telling about pleasure boaters leaving port that left their ETD and ETA with the USCG. The Coast Guard people laughed because they just threw the information away. They didn't know what they were supposed to do with it.)

My recollection is that in the early 70s the Boat Manufacturers Association spearheaded a drive to make the USCG have responsibility over rescuing pleasure yachts as well. I recall recently reading an article about that as well. Also, in Grand Haven, Michigan, the official "U. S. Coast Guard City", I heard that mentioned this summer as I recall. The U.S. Life Saving service was similiarly oriented I believe and when the Life Saving Service and the Revenuers combined, the then existing jurisdiction continued unchanged.

However, the easy way to find out is to look up the law that changed the USCG responsibilities. If you want to dig into it further, Boat Manufacturers Assn, or the USCG should have more information about the change in the law.

commanderpete
01-11-2003, 06:45 AM
The guy in the first story above was sailing from Rhode Island to Bermuda. He aborts the trip and requires rescue simply because he rips one sail? One would expect a better sail inventory and more self reliance from someone attempting a solo ocean passage.

Anyways, here is another rescue story. Didn't turn out too well, but at least nobody got hurt.

http://www.searoom.com/paramour.htm

Theis
01-15-2003, 05:54 PM
I'm glad I wasn't a guest. I have to keep reminding myself as it is "Sailing is supposed to be fun!"

Brendan Watson
01-25-2003, 08:03 PM
You can sail a Commander in heavy, near gale conditions, but
forty knots? I think at forty, I'd pass on going upwind with any sail up
and think twice about motoring. Downwind or reaching I'd go with
just the working jib. I've done over 6 knots close reaching in 25-
30 kts. As for heel, I feel that over 30 degrees the Commander is not making her
best, shes just being over-powered. Its a rush to see water shooting
up when it hits the winch bases in a tower of spray, and its harder
on the boat. I don't see the point in beating on the old girl for a rush.
To go faster perhaps, but heeling 35+ degrees does not mean
faster it only seems faster cause your nervous that something's going to break.
I think sailing her a little flater is faster and lets you be more free
in relation to your course and the wave action. Also, you conserve
your rig and fittings when you sail fast and smooth.

Cheers, B.
Commander #215

Gerry Walsh
01-31-2003, 09:29 AM
Couldn't resist this post. With ice & snow everywhere here and many days until we can untie the lines to play on the lake our thoughts are of the good and not so good days on our boats . Here is a pic of a couple years ago when My wife and I were where we shouldn't have been with the Ariel . Under a microburst !Remember , "The boat will take more than you will"!

Theis
01-31-2003, 05:26 PM
Gary:

That is a great picture. You had one bundle of sail flying, and it doesn't look like you were letting it luff. Did it wind up being a friendly storm, or did the moment of truth arrive two minutes after you took the pix?

Gerry Walsh
02-01-2003, 06:20 AM
Theis, ........That was a strange day. I was enjoying the nice air and looking towards the shore not looking at the catepillar cloud marching in on the starbord side. It dropped fast and marched across the water like a train . No time to reef the main or drop sail .we were caught on the end of it where the air knocked us down to the combing and lots of water said "Hello".She came back up as I held the tiller with my foot pointing into it while hanging on to the winch and admiring the nice job we did painting the bottom in the spring . My wife had a few choice words at this point. Sheeting out and dumping cloth was the next task .All you heard on the VHF was mayday from many boats.None from an Ariel. That experience was our motivation to lead halyards back so we could avoid such fun in the future.I try to watch the sky a little more now instead of trying to get the picture first.

Theis
02-02-2003, 06:39 AM
Yeah, you do eventually develop eyes in the back of the head - and notice the slight change in the color of the sky that no one else on board seems to notice, or care about.

When Solsken got knocked down (I believe by a tornado), mast in the water, the comment later from the ladies was that their thoughts were about their kids, "orphans at such an early age". But, as you commented, the Ariel pulled through (in my case better than the crew).

Before I learned better (and a few harrowing experiences), when a storm was first seen approaching, I used to figure that would wait until it gets closer, sort of keeping track of how fast it is approaching, figuring I had plenty of time to take the sails down when the clouds were near overhead.

The problems with this approach are twofold:

1: The initial wind front is ahead of the clouds (although the biggest blasts often come later in the storm itself - possibly as much as an hour or more - after the weather has turned calm and the mariner is lured into figuring the storm has passed by and putting up full sail).

2. In mentally calculating the time before the storm arrives, we think linearly where our image is more logarithmic. For example, if it took an hour for the cloud to get in range, conventional wisdom would be that there should be ten or fifteen minutes left before needing to be concerned. But for a cloud to travel 30 miles, it will visually only change a few degrees on the horizon. It is in the last mile or so that the visual angle to the cloud changes most dramatically. As a result, it might, for example, take an hour for the cloud moving at 30 to get into that range where I become concerned (but it has travelled 30 miles), and the fifteen minutes I thought I had, becomes in reality, only a minute or two (the time needed to travel the last mile or two) before the initial blast is doing its thing to me.

But, yes, the Ariel is a very forgiving boat, and handles whatever is thrown at it very well, working out of all the dumb (in retrospect) things I have done. That is not true of all boats!

Gerry Walsh
02-03-2003, 04:58 AM
That was a good reality check of our abilty to recover after a good knockdown .It can happen to any of us at any time .what does matter is keeping your head clear enough not to panic. My Father taught us that. He ran motor launches in the Navy mostly in the North Atlantic. He saw real nasty weather in his time as well as his days of sailing on Lake Ontario and Lake Erie which is where he purchased hull # 88 " Robin" and sailed it there for many years . When he went up to a C&C41 the Ariel sat for 3 years before my wife and I decided to take him up on the offer of moving it to our area in N.Y and restoring her . We are throuhgly happy with our boat and know it will take us through any chop or swell . As you stated they are very forgiving boats .

commanderpete
02-03-2003, 12:54 PM
Nice to keep it in the family, Gerry.

Here is another heavy weather rescue story for my friends.

Details are still quite sketchy. Rumor is that the boat was a Hunter 450 Passage being sailed by a delivery crew. They transferred to a 25 foot sailboat before being picked up by a cruise ship.

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Jan/18/ln/ln14a.html

Followup story:

http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2003/Jan/21/ln/ln24a.html

Theis
02-03-2003, 07:12 PM
I went to the Strictly Sail show in Chicago over the weekend. Spent the whole day (It went fast - from 9:00 AM to 8:00 PM). Needless to say they had all those big puppies with the this gismo and the latest that whatever. The huge coffee grinders, et al. And the kitchens would make a condo at Vail look like a soup kitchen.

Going home, I kept thinking to myself, those are not sailboats. They are boats that sail. If you get into trouble, you have a potentially serious calamity, and the scare factor is outrageous. The bigger the boat, the bigger the power working against you, the bigger the noise to shake the dandruff out of your vertically oriented hair. You can't really afford to take the chance (This assumes you don't have a half dozen young dudes doing the work while you just pushed the button for the roller reefing, confident in ignorance that it always works - unless the alternator fails).

The Ariel, I concluded, is ideal if you really are a sailor. It has everything you want, is safe, is an open water boat, has a comfortable living space, and, when your come into harbor, forces you to get out into the real world and chisel drinks on someone elses boat or have a good meal at the pride-of-the village dive and bar. The blows you talked about, Gerry, I concluded they would be more petrifying with a sixty foot spar sticking up into the clouds looking for something electrical than with the 30' foot mast of the Ariel with stays and shrouds that are two sizes too large. As the story of the Vice Commander pointed out, the smallest thing can bring one of those big puppies down. I can't imagine a failed alternator on my outboard being life threatening (We carry two flashlights and I have a pull starter, and a hand held GPS).

It is not that uncommon to be down below in a bad blow walking on the walls of the Ariel. There is always plenty to hold on to. In the big Brand X, the only thing I could see to hold on to was the flower vase as it was careening across the dining area.

One last thing before I get off the soapbox, if all my waking hours are spent tweaking #82, how do you tweak a forty foot boat (assuming you don't have the wherewithall to call the yard and say "Could you have this done by Friday").

As the rigger at Palmer Johnson's in Sturgeon Bay, WI told me last year "I figure you guys in the smaller boats go out at least twice as often as the larger guys."

Amen.

Gerry Walsh
02-04-2003, 05:08 AM
Theis, .......I am envious that you had a chance to go to an all sailboat show this time of year . We don't have those here.Last year they had a new C&C 32 at the Rochester show .We did the walk through and the sales rep told us of the "new construction " so the hull only weighed 660 lbs.yes just as much as a small block chevy,........On a 32' boat . And they said it was strong.I would not even think of trading straight up for it new or not.Bigger is not always better . In spring of 2000 I helped move a friends Pearson 36 shaw design back from Nassau to Charleston.SC.We got caught out in hurricane 70 miles from shore . 30 footers with screaming, hissing wind. 36 hrs later we got in.I showed the video to my Father . He said the Ariel would walk over the wave rather than have to drive through it like a larger boat would .I think I have to agree with him.

Theis
02-04-2003, 06:13 AM
That is a particularly interesting comment your dad made. I have noticed and wondered about the bow of the Ariel being quite dry in higher seas (that doesn't mean there isn't spray, but the waves don't often get to drive over the bow). One thing I have also noticed, speaking of those 30 footers (or 10 footers conceptually expanded), they do a great job of blanketing the sail of smaller boats so you are not exposed to the big wind blasts as you might be if the spar poked up 60 feet). Also, with the Ariel, the low-to-the water hull limits the windage of the hull so it takes on less of a sailing life of its own in a blow, regardless of the amount of sail up.

Gerry, you tweaked me and got me to put into writing my thoughts about why bigger does not equate to better. Thank you.

commanderpete
03-05-2003, 06:15 AM
This is what it looks like to get pooped by a wave.

Ouch

Theis
03-05-2003, 06:27 AM
What do you think happened to the guy/girl that took the picture?

Richard
03-05-2003, 09:04 AM
Gerry Walsh---Where do you live? I am in Buffalo.

Gerry Walsh
03-06-2003, 03:52 AM
I live In Williamson N.Y Richard . 30 miles east of Rochester .We keep our Ariel on sodus bay. Ariel #335 listing Lady is also at our marina.

commanderpete
11-17-2003, 05:31 PM
Some crazy wind rolled through here late last week. Coast Guard rescued the crews of two sailboats.

http://www.capecodonline.com/cctimes/capecrews15.htm

Here is the account from the skipper of the 32 foot Contessa posted on the Cruising World Bulletin Board

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We abandoned ship last Fri morning...250mi SE of nantucket. Sea's 40 feet and breaking, the helo pilot had winds of 70kts at 80feet hover height.

The water was very warm, which I think led to a local intensification of the weather. The barometer had just kicked up from 995 in the late afternoon after running off before a normal gale since early morning. We had spent the previous night hove-to, and did fine. This was our third night of heavy weather in five, leaving Casco Bay headed for the Caribbean on a classic New England Northwester weather window. I decided to go outside of Cape Cod to get plenty of searoom from the depressions coming up the coast. Anyway..as darkness fell, conditions rapidly built to hellish...mountainous waves and screaming wind...the autopilot was overwhelmed, we were knocked down on our beam ends a couple of times and I hand steered, surfing down the waves for a while. Didn't have the capacity to keep it up all night..I deployed a series drogue, and the boat stabilized but the cockpit became impossible....continuously awash in foaming water. Physically exhausted and seasick I pretty much ceased to function. Maybe if I had been able to tend the chafing gear and keep the cockpit drains open we would have made it. I think we lost the drogue because at around 2am we were hurled,and I mean hurled, upside down, dismasted and wiped clean at deck level. The electrics started shorting out and smoking, so I disconnected the batteries to prevent a fire. The inside manual pump enabled me to clear the flooding. We were not hurt in the rollover, just bruised and battered enough to hint at what might happen in the next one. particularly I feared head injury. My crew looked at me and said "what are you going to do?" At this point it took me half an hour to put on a pair of pants due to exhaustion and the violent motion. I briefly weighed the options, the risks to my friend, and hit the button on the EPIRB.

The beacon primary contact was the first key person in helping us. She knew the boat, us, the fact that the beacon was mounted such that it was very unlikely to be set off accidentally, and that I was unlikely to panic and set it off if I didn't feel like I had no other option. Her responses to the CG when they called persuaded them that it was not a false alarm, and they launched a search.

lessons: A handheld VHF has limited range from the bottom of a forty foot trough. We could hear the search aircraft calling long before we were able to contact them.

The primary GPS was out and the backup enabled us to get a postion to the search aircraft.

We had enough spare batteries for the VHF that we were able to provide several long counts for the seach aircraft to home on. I don't know what the situation with the beacon gps position or the homing signal was.

Manual inside pumps and flashlights were critical. Make sure that the hose clamp screws on the pump diaphragms are positioned for easy access, facing towards where you'll be working on them.

In the future, if I get out there again, I would deploy the drogue long before I did. Then I would have had time to double up on chafe gear, etc while it was still possible to work outside.

In a sixty knot wind, small skyblazer type flares just get blown into the next wave. 25mm flares do ok.

A more experienced and stronger crew (this was my first attempt at a long trip, and took along a non-sailing friend as watchkeeper) might not have lost the boat.

Don't bother changing into dry clothes before abandoning ship. We had to jump into the water to get picked up. (Actually this was the scariest part of the whole thing..it's hard to breath floating in a lifejacket in those conditions due to the blowing spray..we were each only in the water less than a couple of minutes before the rescue swimmer had the strop around us and was lifting us, one at a time, to the aircraft. I chose to use traditional type I jackets rather than inflatables, so as to be absolutely sure we had flotation on. Still, since the clothes I came ashore with are now my only posessions, I'm glad I got the good fleece :)

The CG SAR helo crews are amazingly skilled and unbelievably kind to stupid sailors. We got a sandwich, thermal bags, water and medical evaluation on the two hour flight back to Cape Cod.

Maybe I would put less money into anchors and a new dodger, and buy insurance next time (just kidding). The dodger was a prize for as long as it lasted, and I believe that the spade storm anchor would have been a treasured posession as well, if we'd actually gotten to a stormy anchorage.

Finally, a heartfelt appreciation for the friends that came to help during the last few days. Time to make some money and see if I want another boat! This board has been a great friend during the getting ready phase..I feel compelled to keep checking in even now.

Cheers, Francis

Theis
11-17-2003, 07:58 PM
A friend of mine keeps reminding me "Sailing is supposed to be fun" Going out in conditions like that violate the rule.

Having said that from the podium, the weather forecasts on this pond out here (Lake Michigan) last Wednesday night, , were the most severe I have almost ever heard - with 60 knot winds forecast and 20 - 25 foot waves up north. What the writer experienced was a classic Great Lakes storm - cold air over warm water - we call it a November storm. The cold air drops in the trough and lifts the waves vertically - but in the GL the waves are steeper.

As for the drogue - that is not enough. You need a full sized sea anchor. There is a big difference - and yes, the chafing gear is critical.

So my mind is made up, I am going to write the story this winter. In 1964 I was racing in the only Lake Michigan port to port race (in a Triton) in which no one finished. 60 knot winds, and 35 foot seas (the largest theoretically possible in Lake Michigan, according to the Perfect Storm). Stay tuned and I'll pass it on to Bill for the newsletter - after I take all the BS out of it (knowing that if I don't do it, he will).

ebb
11-18-2003, 08:47 AM
Just incredible! Read once that global warming would produce more and more violent storms. Don't know that I buy into that paranoia but being prepared is something to seriously think about.

I put quarter posts in and Windline chocks on the taffrail on the wood boat I had. Never got to try it out - and I was often looking for a better alternative to the closed chocks, The hard angled rollers at any line angle down look to me like they would chaff the line. Or chaff the chaffing on the line.

Have never understood the design of traditional cast rope leads. If the line is pulled in any other direction than straight-on the hard corners on the chocks are made to cut any mooring line.. Even Herreschoff designed chocks wrong, both fore and aft. The corners of what ever you put the line in should have a big radius, at least 1 1/2". IMCO. Weren't any perfect storms in the old days.

But the line as well should be led over a smooth saddle that cradles the line. Nothing available remotely resembles something like this that I know about.

Don't know that there is room for bolted-on bollards on the quarter deck of the Ariel, or that you could trust them in the ultimate storm requiring a sea-anchor. So you could tie off the drouge if you you were streaming it aft, but over what kind of Fairlead would you have it going overboard/ Bow on would be better in a blow, but what rig would you use over the bows??? Has anybody thought about this? What is the ultimate chaffing gear....fire hose? An armchair? Real heavy line would be a plus. And some sort of shock absorber set up. How do we prepare an A/C for the big one?

Think you'ld still have your rig if you pitchpoled and did a 360??? How much can an A/C take. HOw much do you prepare for?

Remember, we are MORC!


I have a problem with the concept of abandoning a boat that is still afloat and can be prevented from sinking. Fear is damned uncomfortable! Whatever happened to lying ahull? There are plenty of stories of people who managed to continue on their adventure after dismasting. Attention has to be paid to keeping warm and dry and fed. Yeah, wudoino?

Theis
11-18-2003, 07:41 PM
My understanding of lines parting because of "chafing" is not always because of abrasion (the right angle bit mentioned above). Remember, with a drogue or sea anchor, the line will be pulled, in all liklihood, in the direction of the line. The only reasons for a line not being in-line with the chock are a) the boat is sailing ahull, which is one of the reasons not to use a drogue, but to use a sea anchor (the drogue does not have the holding power of a sea anchor so the bow can fall off and the boat sail on the hull windage) and b) the tether on the sea anchor line is too tight. The tether is a line, on one end of which is a snatch block through which the sea anchor line passes, and the other end is connected to the winch or some place astern. The tether controls the angle the craft holds to the wind/seas. If at the correct angle, the sea anchor line breaks the waves, and the angle stays constant. That is the idea. With the tether, the angle of the sea anchor line is fixed, based the force applied to the tether.

The problem is that nylon line has a lot of stretch (one and a half times it's length) - and it will stretch even when stressed a small portion of its ultimate strength. The stretch around the chock creats tremendous heat. I have heard tha the center of the nylon line will heat up, melt and fuse/burn through - a problem not visible from the outside. Ultimately it shatters catastrophically. The only remedy, to the best of my knowledge, is anti-chafing guards where the lines go through the chocks (not the rubber stretch thing placed on the line ahead of the chocks). This a) keeps the line from streching as it goes through the chocks (and prevents a point of heat buildup) and b) prevents the line itself at the chock from abraiding. When the stretching occurs over the entire 200 feet of line, without any point of concentration, there is little heat build up. It is at the "stress point" that the heat buildup becomes potentially dangerous.

Now, as for nylon becoming frayed, that should be evident from occasional inspections. Tuff balls form around the fraying area - they appear to be inconsequential, = normal wear and tear - but in fact can obscure a potential line failure.

ebb
11-19-2003, 07:57 AM
Just a couple loose ends here.
Heavy Weather Sailing by Adlard Coles is still available in an updated version that includes drogues and sea anchors.
Lin and Larry Pardey have a Storm Tactics Hanbook for about $20 that I will get a hold of one day soon.

Drogues are deployed off the stern for slowing the boat. A drogue won't keep you from being tumbled by a comber.
Sea anchors are set from the bow and are aimed at at stopping the boat. It needs to be set so that it is in phase with crests and troughs coming at you. It can probably keep the boat from being pitchpoled.

The books mentioned would explain better than I the options one has to save your ship. My guess is that chain could be used over the chaff points if this was planned for in the design of the chock. A 15' foot parachute is going to exert huge loads on the attachment points on the boat.

I think we'ld need 300 to 400 feet of 3/4" nylon. That line would have to be expensive single braid which evidently doesn't generate the heat buildup you get in double braid or 3 strand from the yanking and working of the line.

Theis
11-19-2003, 09:17 PM
Ebb:

The two books are good ones, and they are captivating.

As for 400 feet of 3/4" line, I don't know where you would carry it. Perhaps the best place would to wrap it around the hull. You certainly would need a block an tackle to lift it. On solsken, I carry two hanks of 7/16" line, which is more than enough. But either hank is all that my wife can carry without my having to put my beer down, get up out of the cockpit and give her a hand. And that 7/16" line is about half the weight of the 3/4" line. 7/16", in my opinion, for an Ariel, is overkill - to provide the extra je ne sais quoi.

Probably the other alternative to fixed chocks, such as we have, are the ones that include a pulley, so that the line runs over a turning pulley, rather than rubbing on smooth metal. Better but not perfect. A chain also has the weight problem, as well as having two breaks - one at each end of the segment of the chain that passes through the chock.

As for setting the sea anchor, it can also be set astern, but the danger there is in getting pooped. From the bow, the angle that it is set at is, as I recall, about 30 degrees to the waves (not the wind). And setting at the proper angle is done with the tether that I mentioned above.

Incidentally, the nine foot parachute is adequate for an Ariel.

As to the single strand, I don't know if that is necessary, and I don't ever recall seeing it used for anchor lines. The "twist" in a multiple strand line absorbs a great deal of the jerks and tugs.

commanderpete
11-24-2003, 07:54 AM
Looking forward to hearing that story, Theis.

Take a look at the bow chocks on my boat.

Theis
11-24-2003, 06:25 PM
I'll bet that just a few minutes before you took that picture there was a pleasantly shaped figure posted on the bow looking for whatever might lie ahead, and you forced her aft just so you could show all of us two chocks. I think this organization deserves to give you many kudos for what you have given up just so we could be better informed. Such hardship. Hazaa! To your health!

Tony G
11-24-2003, 09:18 PM
Oh-I dunno Theis, Pete's beauty has a nice 'set' there just peeking out the sides a little. Looks owner enhanced, yet natural.

Theis
11-25-2003, 05:36 AM
What I would like to see are the before and after pictures.

Sean O'Sullivan
11-26-2003, 03:47 PM
Cmdr Pete,
I like the wood trim on your boat. Can you post additional photos.

Thanks, -Sean

Theis
11-26-2003, 07:37 PM
If he posts the before and after pictures, you'll see a lot more of the trim.

Theis
11-27-2003, 06:32 AM
Here's a pic of what it was like sailing south this summer. the first half hour was fun. Eight hours plus when I pulled in, it had gotten pretty old

commanderpete
12-10-2003, 01:43 PM
Cool pic Theis.

Sean, I'll get some photos soon, been a bit lax lately.

I always thought those bow chocks were super-sized. Nice bow chocks are good.

Bow chicks are good too.

marymandara
12-10-2003, 03:34 PM
Indeed, the Commander...'the little boat that could'!

The cutest dinghy in the navy!

A boat with a good firm foredeck upon which to work....

george copeland
08-05-2004, 08:00 PM
You know, we in Texas have a saying: "If you don't like the weather here, just wait fifteen minutes." On the nautical scene that translates to a need for quick and correct solutions to what we call pop-up thunderstorms during the summer. That, in turn, might mean dropping sail and heaving-to. As easily as the nose of these Ariels tends to blow-off, I had the idea that a 6 or 7 foot chute might be enough to hold the bow 40-50 degrees into the waves without all the exponential load increases that might attend a 9 or 10 foot chute. What say you, oh luminaries of the vintage albergian fleet?

Theis
08-05-2004, 08:24 PM
My experience is that when in doubt, get off all the foresails - bag them - an absolute - and bring down the main to a double reef. The foresails if you leave them up, will bring you down wind and the boat will be uncontrollable, unless you are still flying the 170 % genoa - in which case you have other problems. I have the ability to 50% reef my storm jib but have never had the need to use it.

The issue in those severe blows is that I don't want to go forward, and dropping all foresail is the best way to avoid that.

commanderpete
09-01-2004, 10:38 AM
Here is a good discussion of heavy weather boat handling skills.

http://www.48north.com/sep_2004/weather.htm

I've often wondered how to deal with the tsunami produced by an asteroid strike.

http://www.drgeorgepc.com/AsteroidImpact.jpeg

Theis
09-01-2004, 08:48 PM
Like you, I have already mastered those idiosyncrasies of the water surface and fluctuations in wind conditions. As the author comments , they can be fun if handled properly. Regardless, his instructions fail to mention that a quick drink or two BEFOREHAND can help prevent panic. Afterwards some form of liquid would be necessary for hydrating. Tipping takes on a different connotation under those circumstances. As for the tsunamis, I prefer to put out an anchor with 10,000:1 scope in deep water, and let the line out gradually so that the line and anchor don't absorb the full impact of the wave.

But he doesn't cover what is of greatest concern to the Great Lakes sailor. The unpredictably emerging volcano is the terror of the Lakes. We need comments on how to keep the craft and its contents from being turned into dust by the heat (the lady can keep her two piecer on, I would imagine), and most important, how to get the liquid to our lips before the medicinally active component in the liquid evaporates.

commanderpete
09-02-2004, 11:18 AM
I don't have anything in my files regarding sailing through a volcano blast. For a really big one, I'd go with bare poles and trail a drogue.

On the positive side, the blast should strip off all the old paint and varnish, saving much elbow grease on a restoration project.

I like the anchoring idea. With an all-chain rode, you could probably get by with 5,000:1 scope.

Might not be practical for a 1,700 foot wave.

http://www.drgeorgepc.com/Tsunami1958LituyaB.html

Theis
09-02-2004, 07:16 PM
I flew over Latuyu Bay at a low level during the summer in the mid 1990s. You could still see the displaced tree line at the reported 1,700 foot level (above us). Apparently everything was stripped by the tidal wave (I have a book on it). Quite a site.

But getting back to heavy weather, it is important to note that one boat and its occupants did not survive, but two other boats did. They were anchored in shallow water, but fortunately must have done something right. No one that I know has reported what they did, other than were hidden behind the island - fortunately.

But a volcano in the middle of one of the Great Lakes is something else. I could find nothing about what people did on previous occasions. Were you more successful? Lake Superior was supposed to have been formed by a volcano. There must be some literature written by people that witnessed that event, wouldn't you think?

commanderpete
09-03-2004, 10:34 AM
I don't know Theis. I've placed some calls to the World's top Volcanologists and am awaiting a reply.

Salt water sailors face another threat--attack by a Giant Squid.

Farfetched you say? Not so!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2661691.stm

For self defense, I plan to boil up some oil on the Sea Swing stove.
Pour the boiling oil on the beast and ignite it with a flare gun.

Any Calamari which remains on deck will be served with some Marinara sauce, crusty bread, a simple green salad and Chianti Classico. Yum.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/images/030423_seamonster.jpg

Mike Goodwin
09-04-2004, 07:30 PM
Anyone know whose boat this is?

Mike Goodwin
09-04-2004, 07:31 PM
That photo was shot in Indian River Fla. this morning BTW.

mrgnstrn
09-04-2004, 10:03 PM
poor guy.... :(

of course the worst part is not the damage (owing to the extreme stregth of A/C 's) but he has to get somebody to upright the girl, put her on a trailer, and stick her back into the water. What a Pain!

-km
Ariel #3

commanderpete
02-09-2005, 08:23 AM
Yowza. That'll get your attention

commanderpete
02-09-2005, 08:24 AM
Think I need a bigger boat

commanderpete
02-09-2005, 08:25 AM
Even Bigger

commanderpete
02-09-2005, 08:25 AM
Maybe I'll just stay home

george copeland
02-09-2005, 10:05 AM
In my NAVY days, we did some of this exciting cruising into the gaping jaws of death. I particularly liked the day a bunch of forktrucks broke loose in a forward cargo bay. Made great pinballs. Big 10,500-pound pinballs. :eek: My idiot division officer told me to take a bunch of boatswains mates foreward and order them to hold down and re-gripe these playful trucks. I offered him the honor of being the first one to lay-hold of one of our hopping, drunken leviathans--because I was certain some of the men might have doubts about their own abilities to accomplish the thing. The physics of the situation seemed to suddenly and subtley insinuate itself into his planning. He decided we needed to be somewhere else for a while. Nothing quite like a heaving ship to teach you about g-forces transferred through a deck plate.
Can't blame the division officer, though. His degree was in Animal Husbandry.
Arrrrr.
GWC
Houdini (A-407) :cool:

commanderpete
02-10-2005, 12:16 PM
Funny stuff. Maybe not too funny at the time.

Last pic

Blub Blub

george copeland
02-10-2005, 03:37 PM
Question: if a fellow in a small sailboat is busy taking these pics instead of heaving-to or otherwise reducing sail how likely is it that he is sane? Anybody out there ever sail a Commander or Ariel that hard? Results?
GWC

Houdini (A-407)

commanderpete
02-25-2005, 08:26 AM
I think that photo was taken by an Australian racer, so he could be crazy for two reasons.

I sure wouldn't want to sail my boat that way. I remember the first time I took a wave over the deck. It lifted up the forward hatch and dumped a bunch of water below. Bit of a shock. You want to dog that hatch down.

I wouldn't want to try this either

mbd
02-25-2005, 09:04 AM
:eek:

That's one way to overcome the limitations of a displacement hull!

commanderpete
05-18-2005, 09:17 AM
Shamrock V.

commanderpete
05-20-2005, 09:27 AM
Some great sailing action in this movie clip. Wet & Wild

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2005/GCroughedit.wmv

And stay away from Tankers

commanderpete
05-20-2005, 09:28 AM
The Ocean doesn't like them

commanderpete
05-26-2005, 08:29 AM
Enough ugly tankers

ElBeethoven
06-05-2005, 03:08 PM
I'd like to retrieve this thread and ask if anyone knows (personally or otherwise) of offshore storm tactics in the Ariel. In the last few months, I've read Heavy Weather Sailing (Coles), How to Sail Around the World (Roth), EVERYTHING by the Pardeys, and re-digested the appendices in all of Bernard Moitessier's writings. I am now the world's greatest theoretical bluewater storm tactician. ;)

Still, in outfitting for offshore, I wonder if the Ariel, with it's heavy displacement and long keel wouldn't behave much like the yachts of old (and the Pardey's two boats) with a parachute sea anchor? It seems like a safe, cheap and proven way to go.

While the Jordan series drogue has much to recommend it (including much scientific research), I question its use ONLY because of the Ariel's small size. While it may unfailingly hold you stern-to, I'm not sure I want 30-foot breakers in a 7-foot cockpit.

Also, I recall earlier in this thread someone mentioning dropping the jib completely and hunkering down under reefed main. Will the Ariel heave to with no headsail? Or should one use a spitfire?

Food for thought appreciated!

Jeremy

Theis
06-05-2005, 07:13 PM
My experience is you don't want anything up forward in maximum, or near maximum weather - no storm jib - no spitfire.

A double reef main will take you through anything on the Great Lakes (although that does not mean you are in for a pleasant ride). But without the double reef main, the pitching and rolling become untenable. With the double reef, you can luff to your heart's content and take almost anything. Your boat is under control heading somewhat upwind at a speed that you want.

The key as for the amount and location of the sail is when you lose rudder control. With ANY headsail in a blow, the Ariel bow will be pulled downwind regardless of what direction you would like to stear. That means the double reef will fill and off you go - downwind - out of control. Worse, with only a foresail, there is nothing to head you upwind - you are hosed!

Stick with a reduced main (and perhaps a motor to give some headway, since a double reef may not provide sufficient drive - at least on the Great Lakes with their short wave crest and the unusually steep waves.)

The other alternative is to avoid severe weather entirely. That is my latest approach. But your enemies in heavy weather are a) either to get going downwind so fast that the bow gets tripped under the bow wave, or b) to have no sail and the pitch and roll become so bad that you can't take it physically.

ebb
06-06-2005, 06:27 AM
This is good to know. Thank you Theis!

One should take into account that fresh water storm waves
are a little lighter than salt water. ;)

ElBeethoven
06-06-2005, 01:11 PM
Thanks Theis!

I learned how to sail on the Albemarle Sound in N. Carolina, another notorious body of fresh water: 120 miles wide and 8 feet deep. When those lovely Hatteras Lows blow through, talk about short,steep waves. Oy veh.

Along these heavy-weather lines, does anyone know of someone rigging a solent stay on an Ariel?

J.

Mike Goodwin
06-06-2005, 05:52 PM
You must have never fell in or got capsized, because the Albemarle is quite salty, as is the Currituck and the Pamilico and all the other Carolina sounds. The Atlantic goes pouring through Oregon Inlet , Hatteras Inlet, Ocracoke Inlet, etc. several times a day. The tide runs up past Plymouth, Edenton or Hertford. Even the Roanoke River that feeds the Albemarle from the west is brackish a good ways up toward Murfreesboro .
Where on the Albemarle were you ?
Some of my ancestors met the Roanoke Colonists when they arrived, so you could say I have a wee bit of local knowledge!

Theis
06-07-2005, 04:39 AM
One thing I did forget to mention. On my storm jib (the original Pearson design), I do have 50% reef points - so that I can bring it down to the size of a spitfire, but very close to the deck. I have never reefed the jib (other than for practice).

Where this might be useful is where there are continuous high winds of known velocity, the boat has been stabilized, and more drive is desired. I would not use it with an approaching storm because I wouldn't have any clue what I was in for and do not want to be over powered. However, after a front passes and I am faced with gale force winds, I might put the reefed storm jib up with a reefed main to get a bit extra drive. But I have never done that, so this is just conjecture. Better to stay out of that stuff - if you have a choice.

ElBeethoven
06-07-2005, 08:58 AM
Ok Mike, I'll accept "brackish," and it can get pretty salty especially during a drought year. Still, for all of its faults, sailing on water with no tidal current is a mighty nice (provided you don't sail IN the inlets which is suicide anyway). I was actually on the Outer Banks; just off Kill Devil Hills on Colington Island. Nice little harbour with deep-water canals where everyone kept his boat in the backyard. Sure saves on those marina fees!

Theis, the info on the jib is great. When crossing oceans, it's not a matter of "if" you hit heavy weather, but "when." So I'm gathering all the information I can. Looking through the archives, I have to admit the construction of the hull-deck joint was a shock, but then, they HAVE lasted for 40+ years thus far. I'll be very eager to see if any modifications have been made to the Ariel I'm going to look at tomorrow.

Cheers!

Theis
06-07-2005, 10:09 AM
I concur with your comments about crossing oceans. But at least you have an inkling about what the weather will be and where it is coming from. On the Great Lakes, no one has an idea. For example, all week this week the forecasts are 40% chance of storms/t-storms, etc. That is about as close as you can come to NOAA not having a clue about what to expect (50%).

Coupled with an inherently incompetent and arrogant organization (National Weather Service in Romeoville, Illinois), the weather service becomes dangerous. The best one is that they curtail all regular broadcasts when there is severe weather in the area. With the exception of a very small area where there might be severe weather, it doesn't give anyone outside the small area any idea of what can be expected for the next couple hours. That is, definitionally, a dumb idea. Hopefully the clowns that devised that will subcomb to Darwinian theorems.

Then, too, their marine forecast recommendation in severe weather is to stay tuned to the local commercial radio/TV stations. When they give warnings, they will relate the marine warnings to county lines and roads ("north of rt. 22", for example). My charts do not show roads nor do they show county lines, unbeknowest to the National Weather Service. When there is a blast coming through, the warnings are to get off the water immediately and they blast that into your ear for a couple hours - as if a sailboat had a choice. And, unbeknowst to these ignoramouses, the most dangerous place to be at the advent of a storm is at the harbor entrance. So, since we have to sail as they did in the mid 1800s, we need to be prepared for anything on these little ponds - including being out for 24 hours or more before going into a port that is safe (a ship port with a turning basin).

So, the best thing out here is to read the clouds, and expect the worse. That way you won't be disappointed - but it does curtail the sailing a bit more than we would like.

SailorLiz
06-07-2005, 12:03 PM
Theis,

I agree, NOAA has a hard time prediciting the marine weather on the Great Lakes. Here on N. Lake Huron, the NOAA station out of the Gaylord area has recruited mariners as weather spotters. We have attended their weather classes for two years now. Very imformative. The guy who taught the mariner weather is a meteroligist who is also a Great Lakes sailor. He was very knowledgable. With the advent of tecnology these days, the mariner spotters can call in on their cell phones or relay a message throught the CG via the marine radio. So now at least we are getting weather warnings as they are happening coming usually from your area (the west). Gives us sailors over here a little more time to be prepared. The one thing that I hear from the meterologists in this area, is that between the water and the high/low land elevations, it really plays havoc with the weather. They say there is a waiting list to come to this area to do forecasting. I've lived in MI all of my life and the saying here is if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes and it will change. :rolleyes: Also, the sailing season is just three months of bad ice fishing!

willie
06-07-2005, 01:47 PM
Sheesh, didn't know there was so much info here!
Spent a few hrs. last night looking at posts from 2002, and getting caught up. Don't know how i missed all this!! Thanks for the good heavy weather info.
I'd like to see more on sail choices/wind speeds. From what i gather, the full main should work up to about 20 knots? That might be pushing it for me. How about 15 for the first reef? I have two sets of reef points. As far as jibs, when do ya'll go down from the 150? About the same time? When it gets to howling in the 25+ range, we get pretty rough on the Columbia, which for me is more difficult than the wind. There's usually about 3 seconds between the 3-4' swells, which can stop us pretty dead head on. So it's a challange. Lately it's been blowing quite a bit, gusts in the 40+ range. I look at the wind website when we get back to see just what we experienced that day. Interesting.

I started out saturday with the small jib, (90-100%), and we were considering going up to the 150, when things picked up again. Glad we stayed small. I figure we can always put up more after getting out there if we want. Better to be conservative with my small crew. Took an experienced racer out that day, so we played around with the boat and sails some. I was actually hoping the wind would pick up a bit more, but it stayed in the 20knot range most of the day. I feel better now about taking her out in more wind, thanks, in part, to Theis and Ed's experiences related here. I know she'll take more than i want. ;)

Theis
06-07-2005, 05:45 PM
Liz:
Good hearing from you again. I'll be up in your home port this summer - unless the weather cools my heels.

Your comments are interesting. A couple years ago, in the early morning while docked at North Manitou, I delayed my departure because of a curling cloud to the west. The NOAA forecasts were for a delightful day. It was only after all hell broke loose - and that includes darkness - that NOAA reported that "Doppler radar has spotted severe storms..." approaching the area. I could only think "Who needs Doppler radar for that. Why not look up at the sky for a more advanced technology?

So it is interesting that with all the satellites, Doppler radar, a seemingly unlimited budget, NOAA can not accomplish what seasoned spotters can do a couple hours beforehand, and, to make matters worse for mariners, has to rely on the commercial radio/tv stations to report local weather to mariners. The message to us that are out there - use common sense, and learn to read clouds and weather patterns - and then recognize that you could be wrong.

One other thing: The Canadians have it right. Their marine forecasts are informative telling mariners what is happening, where it is happening and why, unlike the NOAA blather which tend to be simply conclusionary alarms having little value other than to frighten.

Willie:
The guys in the Bay should be experts on relating wind and sail, but I'll lend my voice and be interested in what others opine. And I don't have an anerometer, so these are gut feels. Main and 150/170% genoa to about 12 mph. Main and 100% genoa or no main and the 150/170% from 12-20 mph. Main and storm (70%) 15 - 25 mph. Single reef main - storm 20 - 30 mph. Double reef main and storm 25 - 35. Over 35 mph, double reef main only.

For guys on the Bay I suspect those estimates that will seem like child's play. There will likely be a lot of variation in the opinions, and to each his own and the extent to which the skipper wants to bend the boat over. It also makes a difference whether the boat is in a race or cruising and whether the lead bars are in the keel. I find the boat goes best at about a 20 degree heel. Baring the really viscious weather (50 - 90 mph), the boat will take almost any reasonable blend of sails. The worst that I can foresee happening is that you will have a knockdown, and then you know you need to shorten sail.

Also, if you have too much sail, the fisherman's reef (luffing the main at the luff) can depower the boat and allow you to get things under control. That is also a good omen that it is time to shorten sail.

I'll be interested in what others have to say.

Jeff
06-07-2005, 05:48 PM
I will probably be looking at a commander tomorrow. Tell me more about this shocking hull/deck joint.
Jeff

Bill
06-07-2005, 07:14 PM
Use the search button and type in Hull to Deck Joint for starters.

ElBeethoven
06-07-2005, 07:34 PM
OK, the power has come back on. The cable modem service has returned, and I can now finish my reply to Theis that I started at 2:30pm. (It's now 10.) I'm absolutely spooked by the timeliness of this discussion. Fate works in mysterious ways.

At 3:05 this afternoon, just after I had hit the "Submit Reply" button with my orginal response, the worst and unquestionably FASTEST developing storm I've experienced in YEARS blew through here taking with it an 80-foot sycamore in the backyard, our deck table and umbrella, my tomato vines and several years of my mom's life. Someone else's deck umbrella landed in the driveway, but we don't know whose yet. Made for one d*mn exciting afternoon! Still, I'm less than thrilled now to have ANOTHER tree to cut up with the chainsaw.

So yes, I think this would be the ideal opportunity to bring up some summer weather safety discussion, either here or, better, in a new thread starting with Theis' comments about the Great Lakes. My original reply from earlier was:

I worked at a sailing site around 200 years ago with a guy who was also a pilot, and I must say this: Joe called the weather FAR better than any NOAA forecast ever could. He based all his calculations on upper- vs. lower-level wind directions. I'd try the aviation weather sites, do a little research and see what you can come up with. Here in Carolina, regardless of the ground wind direction, if it's blowing SW above 10,000 feet, you're better off doing woodwork in the garage in the afternoon, because thunderstorms are almost a given. To prove my point, it's 3pm, and I just heard a huge thunder boom outside! See how smart I am!!! :p

YIKES! Lightning too and the power just flickered, I'm GONE!!!!!!!

At that point, the modem died, and I heard mom shouting for help.

What REALLY got me was the SPEED that this storm came up. On the Outer Banks, we had two BIG advantages: 1) any thunderstorm had to cross the comparatively cool waters of the sounds before hitting the barrier islands losing a lot of punch in the process and 2) being on the east side of the water, we could always see storms coming. Now, I'm in the piedmont of Carolina where there is nothing but hot land and humidity and sight-lines of the average suburb. From the first distant thunder roll to the gust front that took down the tree was less than FIVE MINUTES. Around an hour later, I confirmed this with the doppler radar time-lapse. In not more than 10 minutes, the radar over my part of town went from nothing to that nasty purple color that comes after the deep red.

This was not pretty. We did, however, get a severe thunderstorm warning about 20 minutes after the finger of God struck down the tree. By then, the worst was over, but we still got 3/4" inch of rain in less than 30 minutes. (So much for dad's grass seed he planted yesterday.)

On the water, you usually get some warning unless you're unfortunate enough to get caught in a microburst or be right where the gust front descends from the roll cloud.

Has anyone experienced this on the water? And what have you done to save the ship and crew? With no more advanced notice than I got today, on the water I would have barely had my foulies on, let alone reefed the main or changed jibs, before 50+ knots of wind had laid me on my beam ends.

Fair winds,

J.

Theis
06-07-2005, 08:51 PM
Call it a microburst, a tornado or a waterspout. Who knows. But this is what happened in a one mile passage from Rock Island Wisconsin to Washington Island Wisconsin.

The wind had been blowing heavily all day from the south, and late in the afternoon I headed out to Washington Island from Rock Island, protected from the seas by the north coast of Washington island - storm jib and double reefed main. The run should have taken no more than fifteen minutes. The skies were overcast but not dark - not as with an approaching thunderstorm. In the middle of the passage, without any warning whatsoever, the winds started veering faster than I could change course to head into them. The whole thing was over in what seemed like five minutes - too fast to even get the anchor out. We had been flattened - a complete knockdown. The mainsail was torn in half, and the horseshoe vang stripped off the boom The dinghy was upright but fully sunk. I had pockmarks all over my face from hail, but didn't realize that we were being hit by hail.

Solsken disappeared to viewers from shore watching us (we were surrounded by shoal waters to the east - deep waters to the west, cliffs to the north and rocky coastline to the south - all within a half mile), and all land disappeared during the interlude.

My suspicion was that it was a tornado, but the guy that did this to us, and the US weather service, never told us. Credit for thesse comments goes to my wife who reminded me of a few of the details - and, I am convinced, will never forget them.

SailorLiz
06-08-2005, 05:39 AM
Theis,

When you head this way, give me a shout. Maybe we can rendevous at Drummond or ? My husband & I would like to meet you. We are planning a short cruise up the St. Mary's river towards the end of the month. We will be on Drummond for a couple of days also. Our boat has been delayed being splashed as Mertaugh's boat hoist broke. We were supposed to have had it in the water by now. They are supposed to get it in hopefully this week. Then they will motor it over to Detour Harbor. We are planning on sailing it too Whitney Bay this upcoming weekend, but of course they are predicting thunderstorms all weekend. So we will have our eye on the sky.

I agree about the Canadians weather forecasts. The only thing I didn't care for was only a 24 hour forecast. Sometimes, I like getting an extended forecast, to know what might be coming in weather wise. We carry a weather card with us. It shows pictures of the sky and cloud formations. It is a handy reference. But I find it is true about all of the old nautical weather sayings. They are pretty much true. Chapman's covers a lot of those.

We have been caught a couple of times in fast moving systems. Once all h*ll broke loose just as the shelf cloud passed over us. The rain and wind was horizontal. We had dropped all sails, the outboard started and all foul weather gear on with the boat battened down. It was scary as it rolled over us. But we just got a few sprinkles of rain and no wind. We were in the lower straits, sailing NW to Mackinac Island. We seen it coming and was able to prepare us and the boat. Of course this was a few years ago, before we were weather spotters. NOAA had no warning. :eek:

willie
06-12-2005, 08:09 PM
Took her out today--the wind site says we were in solid 20 mph, with gusts to 30. Left the dock with single reefed main, had my smallest jib ready to hoist. (it's about 90% i'd guess. Pretty high cut, so that's just a guess) Must have got that 30 gust about the time i got it up, 'cause boy we headed around fast. Glad i had the downhaul rigged too. Got it down before anything bad happened! Whew.This solo sailing is interesting. So out we went with the reefed main, and i was suprised how well she actually will sail with no jib. Granted the upwind crawl into the chop (understatement!)was pretty slow, and wet, but we made steady progress. What a hoot!! Even sailed her back into the slip, stepped off and tied her off just like you're supposed to.

So, a couple questions....

Will a small storm jib help her make better progress to windward? And is there one that will keep her balanced, maybe a bit of weather helm, with a single reefed main? And still add some drive? If so, where do i get it, and what would the measurements be? Theis? Mike? Ed? Bill? Anyone? Thanks! :cool:

Bill
06-12-2005, 10:26 PM
From here, it sounds like sail trim. The SF Bay fleet races in those winds with a 110% jib and "sometimes" a reefed main. Vangs, downhauls, outhauls and properly set track all help. Of course, the top rail will be under water . . :D

A good sail loft can build you a proper storm jib, if that's what you want. It's just a matter of percentages :rolleyes:

Theis
06-13-2005, 04:50 AM
You are on target. It is a hoot - once everything gets stabiized. But the run up, getting on the open water, can be a bit intimidating.

But here are my two cents. When you reef the main, you are bringing the center of effort of the main forward - significantly. When you reduce the foresail to a storm jib, you are also bringing the center of effort forward significantly. The totality is a tremendous leward helm. As long as you can control yourself with the rudder, you're OK. But as you heel, the rudder becomes increasingly less effective, and when you are bent over, and the rudder is more lifting water than turning the boat, I don't think you want to play with a leward helm.

When you reef the main, you are also reducing the luff, which is the driving part of the sail on a tack. But getting the sail down from the top (reducing the luff, not the reduction of the sail area) is a principal purpose of reefing because that reduces the leverage of the sail.

The forward drive is lessened even more with a fisherman's reef, where the main is partially luffing. When my drive is sufferin I rig the iron jenny to supplement the sail power - particularly heading into choppy seas. It gives me not only more foreward way, but a higher level of tack.

I do sail frequently with only the big genoa (170%) (no main) and the craft really drives. Good sail, and reasonably well balanced, but I think your winds were perhaps too much for that. Bill's suggestion of sailing with only the masthead (I assume) 100% jib sounds neat - but I haven't tried it. I have tried the 100% and a reefed main and that is fine - but too much for more extreme winds. That is the skipper's call.

As for the angle of heel, I don't think you gain much speed or drive having the rail deep in the water, but I have sailed the Ariel, for pleasure, with the windows being washed by the water surface.

Then you get into the issue of fear factor. What is your level of pain? And, in that regard, as one old timer cautioned me a few years ago as I was heading out into stuff that was pretty tough, "Remember, Peter, sailing is supposed to be fun". I haven't forgotten that since then and it has served me well. But then, in recent years I also have concluded that I am not immortal and perhaps that has also made a difference.

willie
06-13-2005, 07:22 AM
It is supposed to be fun!! That's what the admiral tells me everytime!
She told me that yesterday when i headed to the boat to install the new depth sounder/fish finder. "Have fun" she says! So after i got it installed, i decided to have fun! And it's fun trying to figure this sail trim business out.
Thinking i need to turn her into a yawl! lol Get some weather helm!

So what you're saying is a storm jib won't do much? :confused:

Theis
06-13-2005, 10:04 AM
What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, a storm jib is worse than "it won't do much". It is potentially dangerous. You can do a lot of testing with reasonably steady heavy air, and perhaps a multiperson crew. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. But I would jump ship (that is, if I had my wife's permission to jump ship) if someone tried doing it in a storm, where the maximum wind velocity was unpredictable.

ElBeethoven
06-13-2005, 01:22 PM
Here's my two cents worth on reducing sail, though my experience is more offshore, heave-to tactics than just a romp across the Bay for giggles in a gail. :)

On a masthead sloop rig, as you reef the main, you do indeed, as Theis said, bring the center of lateral effort (CLE) further forward with each reef. Even a properly cut, custom storm jib will do the same. So by the time you get down to the third reef, especially on a boat the size of an Ariel, the CLE is SO far forward owing to the foot of the sail being SO short, that it's doing more against you than for you. This is where the long foot of the storm trysail comes in. Combined with a storm jib, this will allow most fuller-keeled vessels to heave to sufficiently. The OPTIMUM configuration on a sloop would be a solent stay on which the storm jib is bent combined with the trysail. This arrangement centers the CLE, calms the helm and stops the boat dead in a gale with only a miniscule leeward drift.

For that romp across the Bay, I've found that masthead sloops, regardless of their hull design, sail well in a blow with the working jib alone since they (masthead rigs) derive most of their drive from the headsail anyway. Fractional rigs are a whole other world.

I guess I need to move to the Frisco Bay I guess, because here in NC, it's 95 degrees, and we can't get a puff of wind to save our lives.

Good luck!

Jeremy

Theis
06-14-2005, 04:45 AM
With a storm tri-sail you need to remove the main, don't you? The problem there, at least for our blows, is that it would take so much time. A quick reef is near mandatory on the big pond out here (Lake Michigan). But I hav thought about that as an option.

What about hanging a balancing sail off the backstay, as some boats do at anchor to keep the boat from sailing back and forth,? The rig would then be the anchor sail, the storm jib, and no main. Does anyone do that? Any experience?

Mike Goodwin
06-14-2005, 01:56 PM
Usually the trysail goes on it's own track next to the main track and the main stays where it is .

Theis
06-14-2005, 02:49 PM
So, with my loose footed mainsail, I could use the slot for the storm trisail. Or is a storm trisail also loose footed? What about the outhaul? Do you just tie it on to the boom end somehow or does the outhaul need to be adjustable. And then on the mast, would a second track be placed next to the main track, but above the point on the track above the sail head slider. Or is the storm trisail tied around the mast or hooked around the mast with rings? Interesting.

Mike Goodwin
06-14-2005, 03:25 PM
It could be attached to the mast with parrels (beads) on line instead of hoops, the tack is always higher than the clew and it is sheeted to the deck not the boom ( you dont want the boom swinging about in a blow) .

frank durant
06-14-2005, 03:37 PM
no one wants to change mains in a blow so it is generally excepted that it is simpler/easier therefore safer/better to have the trisail mounted on it's own track to hoist.I've seen them sheeted in aft through the spinnaker leads back to the winch.

Mike Goodwin
06-14-2005, 03:52 PM
I looked at our masts today , and it ain't room for a second track on that small mast. I'd prefer the 2nd track too. The parrels work good, I have used them on several masts , make them out of lignum vitae , about a 2" ball.

Tony G
06-14-2005, 08:14 PM
Mike,

What did you just say? I've done a bit of reading, but, I ain't never heard no words like them uttered... :confused:

Mike Goodwin
06-15-2005, 04:38 AM
Never heard of parrel beads, it is what keeps the gaff jaws around a mast . A centuries old technique that still works today.

Theis
06-15-2005, 06:42 AM
Speaking of gaff jaws (I am still trying to figure out what parrell beads are - and having accepted that my mind can never fathom such a concept, figure we should continue on), I now recognize why gaff rigging was so benign in heavy weather, compared to the sloop rig. With the gaff you can easily get rid of the top part of the sail to reduce leverage by dropping the angle of the gaff. When you reef the sail, the center of effort does not move forward significantly as it does with a sloop rig. The gaff rig sail is basically a rectangle when the gaff lowered, and a triangle with the gaff raised. What an ingenious innovation for heavy weather. Are gaff rigs really a thing of the past?

ebb
06-15-2005, 07:23 AM
So far as I know only Michael Kasten is able to talk about gaff rig in modern terms. Nearly all the rest seem to be history buffs. Of course the rig has a lot to do with the hull shape it usually goes with. And modern boats are obsessed with keeping weight off the mast.

c_amos
06-15-2005, 07:50 AM
Ok, found a picture,

These are MUCH bigger then I was thinking, and it seems to me that they would wrap around the mast but you should get the idea.

Let's see if I can get it to display, otherwise I will re-format it later.

ElBeethoven
06-15-2005, 08:21 AM
The gaff rig, especially the gaff cutter, has much to recommend itself for cruising. While it is least weatherly rig you could imagine, the whole point of cruising is to reach or go downwind, and a gaff cutter on a reach is untouchable. And as Ebb points out, its heavy weather capabilities are unmatched. Modern daysailors prefer the simple bermuda sloop for ease of handling and upwind performance, but Lyle Hess didn't design all those great gaff boats of his for giggles. They WORK.

For those who were wondering, attached are a diagram and foto of storm trysail setup.

J.

ebb
06-15-2005, 08:51 AM
A penny more, here. Larry Pardey (with a Lyle Hess cruiser) has a heavy weather CD in which he shows his technique of heaving to with a Long Footed trisail that has a set of reef points!

I recommend the CD, First, to find out what a great sailor does in Heavy Weather, his set up is different than the usual stuff on the net. Second, the CD is made and produced by them, so it directly affects their cruising kitty. Third, the music's pretty good too.

frank durant
06-15-2005, 09:14 AM
I admit to being a 'newbie' to a gaff rig, but I do have a couple of comments on them as my 'trailor sailor' right now for home waters is a suncat with a gaff rig. 1st..they don't like to point too high...50-55 degrees (is there a little dgree key on a type writer?) but they will go to weather that much.2nd..they stand up well in a breeze..better than I expected. I assume that it is a combination of a much lower center of force on the sail and their ability to naturally spill air off the top portion of the sail in a gust. I also find playing with sail shape fun on mine and ya just can't beat the looks of a gaffer !! ps..down wind or any point off wind they ARE fast! Has any one ever converted an Ariel??

c_amos
06-15-2005, 09:28 AM
Took a look at their website, thanks Ebb.

I was familure with their books, but the site is great.

The link is; http://landlpardey.com/


Mike,

I had planned to use parrel beads as for a tiny storm Jib but after reading this thread I have now abandoned that idea. I like them for the trisail though. I am headed to the boat now, the only obstruction that immedately comes to mind is the masthead light (mine seems pretty low to me). Might be high enough though.

Thanks,

Mike Goodwin
06-15-2005, 02:11 PM
Anyone who thinks gaff rig wont go to weather , has been sailing on the wrong boats . I had a gaff yawl that would point as high as my friends Catalina 30 , just not as fast on that point of sail . It is a common misconception that gaff rig wont point , held mostly by folks who have never sailed gaffers , or only sailed Tahiti ketches or tubby little dinghies.
A proper designed and tuned gaft rig will point as high as our Ariel , it just wont be the best point of sail , reaching is.
If you don't have running backstays on a gaffer and know how to use them , then it wont point worth a crap .
I had the distinct pleasure of being aboard the gaff schooner Bluenose II out of Halifax NS when we were challanged by a modern 60 or 70 foot ocean racer. Not only did we sail above them and steal all their air, we out distanced them so much they gave up and turned away , 15 knots going to weather is awesome on a monohull , 18+ on a reach is almost like sex .

Faith
06-15-2005, 02:14 PM
Commander Pete,
The Captain and Crew of the Faith would like to say thanks for your support!
And we'd like to conjecture that an Alberg designed hull can CERTAINLY stand the strains and stresses of a little dip for the combings now and then.... Sure it's frightening when a fifth of your normally admergent hull gets a slight sluice - but it's gold to stand perpendicular to the normally vertical deck! Now, keep in mind, this isn't a bathtub - the kids aren't invited (if aboard, keep them below - I can remember looking out the portholes of Faith directly into the deep blue at age 6) but by all means the boat can handle it. We've taken the 70 degree heel, all hands alert (which means hanging on with a will), multiple times in the last few weeks, not to mention the last 40 years. It's not a question of structural integrity, it's a question of trust in the guy on the tiller. Hurrah!!! or Ahhh!!!
We prefer the Hurrah angle: warnings first, good grips second, leeward rinse third.
It's not brave if you know what you're doing - it's fun!
It's not brave if you don't know what you're doing - it's lunacy.
Don't scare the crew...unless they pay you to...
Sean

commanderpete
06-15-2005, 05:08 PM
Ahhhh....there you are. Welcome to our little clubhouse. We've been enjoying your most excellent adventure.

From Panama you take a right.

Our San Fran Boys should leave a light on for you and keep some beer on ice.

frank durant
06-15-2005, 06:36 PM
No running back stays...or forsail for that matter on my little catboat gaffer Mike,so I guess 50-55Degrees to weather is about all to expect.You are one LUCKY man to get to sail on the Bluenose...that has to be THEE finest and one of the fastest ole girls ever!! And dam pretty to boot!!!! Kinda sad that the original ended up on a reef being used as a dam cargo boat in its later years.How did ya manage to get sailing on her.?? I've been on board but only at the dock...it truely is a piece of Canadian history...never beaten in a race..it HAS to be the ultimate rush sailing on her.When they built the Bluenose 2 they had her original captain at the helm for the first sail.How did we get from heavy weather onto gaffers onto the Bluenose ?? Sounds like this conversation should be finished sitting on the back of an Ariel with an 'icey' in hand ...and more in the cooler!

Mike Goodwin
06-16-2005, 04:04 AM
Over the last 30+ years I have known the Capt and crew of Blunose II quite well and acted as there 'local' liasion when they were on Chesapeake Bay . I have stayed with them when visiting NS , partied with them and been treated quite well by them over the years. I wish I were in Mohone Bay right now instead of sweltering on ChesBay !

Sailfast-NJ
07-06-2005, 04:36 PM
I think she's a Stink-pot rider at heart, but she does like the nice days! :eek:

With regards to dousing the jib or a chute for that matter, try a sleeve, several companys make them, North has one I think. As for the main 120' or so of 1/4" line and some rope-work will make you a nice "Dutchman" that you can haul up with your topping lift (Or you could rig new hardware if you want them separate.)

I need to rig preventers myself! :D

commanderpete
10-05-2005, 08:49 AM
Yikes.......

Theis
10-05-2005, 09:10 AM
A comment. That looks good but the portion at the lower right doesn't look like it is adequately grounded.

commanderpete
05-26-2006, 07:57 AM
Lets say you're sailing along and get hit with a mighty blast of wind, starting to knock the boat over some. What do you do? Do you feather up into the wind or bear off away from it?

I don't think I've seen this issue discussed.

My choice depends on what point of sail I'm on.

Closer to the wind I'll feather up. The boat wants to do that anyway. Its difficult to bear off unless you dump the mainsheet.

Further off the wind I'll head more downwind.

Ease the main in either case.

Theis
05-26-2006, 08:16 AM
Assuming you are not flying a spinnaker, let the main fly (or luff it if that will help - It is called a "fisherman's reef") and bring the boat upwind. Never bear downwind! You will wind up going on a reach - the worst of possibilities with the wind blowing you directly over, and then as you fall further down wind if you can, you may lose control (broach) and possibly do a flying jibe and, with that, possibly taking down your rig in the worst of cases. Further, if headed downwind you have too much pressure on the mainsail to reefr it or take it down. You're stuck.

With a spinnaker up (or gennaker) you go downwind so the mainsail blankets the spinnaker so you can get the spinnaker down.

With the 100% genoa, you'll need to ease off on that or the genoa will carry you downwind regardless of what you really want to do.

But rule of thumb, - always head upwind and if needed douse sails.

Hope these couple of suggestions are of interest, if nothing else.

Ed Ekers
09-08-2006, 06:29 AM
A short clip of what some may call heavy weather sailing. I would call it peging the fun meter...ed



http://youtube.com/watch?v=4-PpU8MUbHE&mode=related&search=

commanderpete
09-12-2006, 06:52 AM
Best part is when they get tossed around like rag dolls.

Good times.

Here's a Tripp 40 "Amuse Bouche" in the North Sea

ebb
09-12-2006, 07:50 AM
'We had an anxious moment when we
slue around into the wind like a surfboarder
on the billowing crest of a coamer
so that we could douse the sails
to have lunch.'

commanderpete
09-25-2006, 07:45 AM
Did a little more experimenting with heaving-to yesterday.

It works best for me with a double reefed main (no headsail).

When the wind is around 15 kts., I'll sheet the main in tight and leave the tiller alone.

In higher winds I'll lash the tiller to leeward and maybe ease the main a bit.

The boat makes very slow progress to windward, but can't come through the wind.

Seems to me that the wind and waves push the bow off and a backed headsail isn't helpful when you've shortened the mainsail

Theis
09-25-2006, 11:24 AM
A couple points. I don't think what you are doing is heaving to. You are shortening sail. To heave to defintionally, I believe, you need both sails. One backs the other. What you are doing is shortening sails until there is too little mainsail to drive the boat upwind and around.

You really need to balance your boat with a full main - particularly in the Great Lakes where you can get an unexpected violent blast. You won't always have time to double reef. Double reefing comes after you have heaved to to steady your stiuation.

You may have a different combo for each of the levels of sails.

I have found with the Ariel that a full main and a 100% jib balance well in a heave to. I can also balance the 100% with a single reef main (80%). I don't think I can heave to in anything other than playing around with a 170% genoa. That big sail becomes a lateen rig when the main is luffing

I haven't tried the balancing yet with a double reef (60%), but I suspect my 70% storm would work OK.

When it really gets violent and I have time, I do what you did, get rid of the jib entirely, double reef the main, and sail the boat - Generally on a beat. If the wind is super violent, I can luff the reefed main - but that still is not heaving to. That is sailing.

commanderpete
09-27-2006, 01:57 PM
I tried rolling out more or less backed headsail. The boat wanted to be beam-to that way. Have to fiddle around some more.

I've seen pictures of boats (Hobart Race?) flying just a storm jib. Wonder how that works.

All in the balance I guess

Theis
10-03-2006, 08:14 AM
You are right it is in the balance. The key difference between the Ariel/Commander and other boats in this regard is that the A/C has a full keel, starting largely just aft of the mast step, and a rudder after that keel. Other current vessels, such as the Hobart racers, have a fin keel about where the mast step is, and a deep spade rudder at the far end of the hull, which provides for much more leverage than the A/C rudder gets.

With the A/C keel design, the bow can fall off very easily, while the stern stays in place. The other guys tend to pivot around the fin keel. The A/C rudder doesn't have the leverage to counteract an unbalanced foresail. The positive side, of course, is that the A/C design is more stable and less sentitive to the helmsman sneezing at the wrong moment.

Another difference is that more recent vessels hae a higher aspect ratio. The key to heavy weather sailing is to get the sail down, thereby reducing torque. On the A/C, if you bring it down only 40% (about the practical max), there is still a great deal of sail up - along the boom but the peak of the sail is way down. Do that with a high aspect rig, and 40% still leaves the head way up in the air.

So, returning to the A/C, the key is to balance the rig to the best of your ability. Since the mast is forward of the center of resistance, a reduced main, with the luff beng diminished, and the outhaul being shortened, still balances. Put up a jib in addition, and the reduced sail at the outhaul with more sail up forward, creates an imbalance and draws the A/C to leward, perhaps uncontrollably. Drop the main entirely, while flying a 70% storm jib, and everything is way forward of the center of resistance (the balance point) and your directional options are extremely limited.

When heaving to, the jib is actually backwinding the mainsail (Heaving to is not much more than coming around without releasing the jib sheet - that is how it is done - and what results is you go into irons). The mainsail is trying to force you upwind, and the jib is trying to force you off. The two are balanced fighting one another, with the help of the helm held hard to weather. the result is that you remain going slowly 20 or 30 degrees off the wind with both sails full so they don't bang and the boat largely upright.

Didereaux
11-05-2006, 10:29 PM
For jib I used a simple downhaul. 5/16 line hooked on stay above top hank, led down through abouple of hanks along the way, through a small block at the stemhead and back to the cabin top. release halyard, pull in downhaul and the jib falls to the foredeck in a hurry. If you even out hte sheets it stays pretty much midships.

Another method I have used on someone elses boat is a ;Geary or Gerry' rig. Run the line up through the block at the stem, then through the hank nearest to the height of the clew, then over and through the vlew back to the hank above yhe one you just went through and up to a hook which clicks on above the top hank. When you haul this line the jib not only comes down it wads up into a bundle at the stem. It would work best, I think if 'turning rings were sewn onto the sail itself instead of going through those hanks, but it did work, and you remain in the cockpit until you are ready to handle the saill

Didereaux
11-05-2006, 10:35 PM
The previous post was made in a thread about reefing, I haven't a clue how it wound up on this thread. ??????????

commanderpete
11-27-2006, 07:00 AM
A very nasty wave in this video clip


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fQ1eWv36o&mode=related&search=

Lucky Dawg
09-07-2007, 10:00 AM
This is a fun thread. Rereading whilst waiting for a client... Also just re-read Tania Aebi's Maiden Voyage ( http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780345410122-15 ) Sailing comfortably the other day in 15kts and L-O-N-G 4-6 footers, I was curious about the... terminal capacities of our boats. I know the Ariel has sailed around the world (at least I think I know that to be true) and therefore capable. Cockpit volume would probably make the Commander unsafe for that type of voyage, but the hull and displacement must make her sister sea worthy enough. I know you salt water sailors have significant seas under your belts. The Great Lakes are certainly capable - gale warnings here today with 35kts and 8-12' seas) Nonetheless Aebi was talking about riding out mast-height waves in her Contessa 26 (http://www.contessa26.net/component/option,com_rsgallery2/Itemid,8/page,inline/id,109/catid,7/limitstart,0/)in the Atlantic, and a knock-down under bare poles in the Med. Holy Crap! I am curious about others' experiences at the fringes! Just idle rambling, but I would love to have experience of some nasty-sea sailing. Not that I plan to sail in it on purpose, but if I ever encountered nastiness inadvertently, I would like to survive to tell the story over a cold beer.

Bill
09-07-2007, 11:27 AM
There have been a number of postings and newsletter articles on long ocean voyages in Ariels and Commanders. We first ran into Zoltan Gurko, who sailed from Los Angeles to the Mediterranean (NOT through the Canal). His story even appeared in Sail Magazine. Here is one of the threads: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=395

Next, an Ariel showed up in Australia. Seems Geoff’s Uhuru was sailed there by Tony Benado. Here is the thread: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=887

The, of course, there was the Sailing to Hawaii adventure:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=927

There are a couple of other threads (probably should be merged) that discuss ocean voyages.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=777

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=192

ebb
09-07-2007, 01:35 PM
Zoltan's voyage in a Commander to the Med from Ventura CA is required reading for any A/C leaving the dock.

He carried cargo in his cockpit, which cut down on volume some, but there's still the weight of the cans and the liquid in them. Seem to remember it was mostly jerry fuel cans. Maybe a deflated dinghy too.

But he did say, in regards to taking aboard green water in rough weather,
that whatever got into the cockpit was quickly thrown right back out again!

Che
09-08-2007, 11:05 AM
Have Ariel's circumnavigated?

Bill
09-08-2007, 11:15 AM
Have Ariel's circumnavigated?

Maybe . . . but we've yet to hear.

commanderpete
09-13-2007, 08:59 AM
Not to forget Commander "Faith"

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1017