Ariel 267 John B

[elliotr]

I'm starting this thread to document my deck repair work and if possible, get some questions answered before I start this project. I have one side of my Ariel #267 which has soft decks from the first stanchion back towards the cockpit about four feet. This area includes the chainplates on the starboard side.

My main concern is that I don't fully understand the process. As I understand the task ahead of me, I'll be removing the top layer of fiberglass under which there will be a layer of old balsa wood and another layer of fiberglass on the bottom. I'll want to remove the top fiberglass layer and balsa layer but not the bottom layer of fiberglass? Then I'll be replacing the balsa with more balsa or better yet a non-biodegradable material (I've heard such a thing exists, any ideas?) followed by the top layer of fiberglass.

I'd like to do this without taking down the mast. Should I keep one of the chainplates and mast support lines in while I do the other two for supports sake? I think the mast will stay up with only the back and front lines on as long as the wind isn't high but I wanted to get a second opinion. I intend on doing this all in one go and not taking breaks for days on end.

I've found posts on this forum before documenting the process but can't seem to find them now that I need them. Maybe my lack of boat vocabulary is limiting my search. I'd appreciate being pointed in the correct direction.

Thanks
-Elliot.

[ebb]

check out
pearsonariel.org/ Deck Delamination/Core Problems {google}
12-11-2001

[elliotr]

Starting a new thread to document the work to my boat. Might not happen till spring but regardless I'll be sharing it here.

[mbd]

Welcome and congrats! Don't forget to change your Profile from "Looking to buy a Ariel and Learn."! Looking forward to seeing your boat.

[SkipperJer]

The thread Ebb identified is good. I'd recommend your winter reading list should start with Don Casey's Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair. Follow that with his Good Old Boat for everything else.

[ebb]

And Don Casey.
In the beginning of This Old Boat (pub 1991) Casey writes about these two main thermoplastics used to make and repair fiberglass boats.
I havenot read Casey's Sailboat Deck and Hull. Skipper Jer makes a definite distinction between the two books, assuming that Casey writes less ambiguous advice in the second book about the use of these plastics.

Do not use polyester resin to repair your old polyester Ariel. Use epoxy only.
You can mold a part using polyester and glass but you should epoxy it onto the old layup. Polyester is not a glue, epoxy is glue.
Polyester is also dangerous to use inside the boat. Styrene and MEKP is bad stuff.
If the liquid plastic you're mixing smells, it's going into your lungs. Polyester always smells.

Two-part epoxy has generated into a much less dangerous material to use, than what Casey cautions in his This Old Boat book.
However, it is grossly expensive.
Look into 100% solids, no solvents, low VOC, 1 to 1, or 2 to 1 laminating epoxies.
They can do everything - very versatile and much safer than polyester.
You can use them below.
West System (Gougeon Bros) epoxy resins and hardeners are not safe, contain solvents and formaldehyde - last time I looked.
(I'm particularly biased - but many use their stuff successfully. It's what West Marine sells.)

Lot of Ariel AND Commander guys post fotos of their work here and share great tips!

DIVE IN!
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Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something. Thomas A Edison

[elliotr]

Thanks Ebb. I was wondering about the toxicity of these materials. Do they all have the same strength?

[ebb]

Imco basically all laminating epoxies will have the same toxicity, as manufacturers all tweek
the same base ingredients from one US supplier, or two, Dow, Shell.
Part A and Part B are inedible. Bisphenol A and amines.
I haven't checked recently who makes what...but 100% solids, which means NO SOLVENTS,
was a major step in reducing toxic reactions to epoxy. Epoxy isn't odorless, but lamination
formulas with no solvents are fair safe to use. Still, take all precautions: ventilation, nitril
gloves and the least poisonous cleanup solvents. I use 91% isopropyl alcohol, bought in qts
from the drugstore. I've heard white vinegar and water work well, but it's wet.
Solvents evaporate quickly. That's why I cleanup with alcohol, least lethal.
We now have waterborne epoxies - haven't heard of a laminating or structural version yet.
The chemistry keeps changing quickly and sometimes radically. But it still holds that
the closer in quantities of Parts A & B, like 1to1 or 2to1, the more likely the glue will not
become a problem.

Strength of toxicity? Treat them all with caution.
Strength of epoxy? That's a hard one. Don't think anybody has compare-tested gluing and
laminating qualities of major brands. What you find are people who are used to a particular
product and talk about it exclusively. There are those who talk about epoxy who also are in the
business of selling their epoxy, like Gourgeon Bros.* And others who mostly repeat what
somebody else does. Vendors are hustlers.
You might take on the www.epoxyproducts.com/* website and read what Paul
Oman has to say. He is real, honest, independent - the products I've gotten from him
are good, his website is somewhat annoying and for me takes some getting used to, every
time I go there! You can talk or write to him and ask questions. I have not tried out his Basic
N0-Blush OR Premium No-Blush Epoxy. Altho technical data sheets mention that these two
are used in "Marine environments. Docks, fiberglass and wood boats to repair or build"... it's
also recommended for "Resealing epoxy pebble walkways". None of that language is reassuring
when it comes to commonly available two-part laminating formulas boat-builders and repairers
know a lot about. This may be great material, but there's no literature, no sites showing these
two coatings being used in traditional lay-up: laminating or composite. The marine epopy pages
are annoying - continuously miss the point and don't deliver plain practical information. I have
successfully used other epoxyproducts.com/ coatings. Lamination epoxies are specific to serious
boatwork. NOT walkways and garage floors. I'm sticking with my phenol contaminated TAP!

*Amine Blush is an attribute of cheap, badly formulated epoxy laminating resin. Intro Here.

Also, there are methods for working with epoxy. Totally annoying having to mix syrup, And
deal with a bloody short time limit before you loose it. There's a curve.
Precise measuring of parts and compleat mixing means you will have no failures.
You have to work with the material to put your own dance together. One of the first steps:
Measure Side A and Side B into graduated polyethylene quarts. I carefully mark every time
the proportion quantities with a sharpie on the container. Always pour in Part A before pouring
in the hardener. Part B. (Don't use the bloody pumps ...I might if building a plastic boat
from scratch, they are useless for incidental and small quantity use. They'll gum up and pump
wrong...) Won't go further into this, this is where a how-to gets written or videoed. Needs
visuals. Witness the presenter's ritual, completeness and shortcuts... to custom your own.
Be wary on the net!
{Polyester is, let's call it, a single use resin material. It can build a boat, make hatches, tanks,
bulkheads - even build a new rudder blade. It requires, imco, its fabric layers to be chemically
bonded. Generally, that means the project is a single non-stop process when laminating.
Epoxy can do the same at twice the cost. But its versatility is 100 times that of polyester.
It can also successfully make mechanical bonds which polyester cannot. Epoxy is a glue - we
need a glue to fix, fillet, laminate and fuse things to our ancient polyester boats. Generally,
we can stop a process...and go again. Don't bother with polyester or vinylester to repair or
upgrade. Polyester isn't glue. Always wonder if that hole repair will zip apart while sailing....
Or unobtrusively begin leaking.
There are some addled brained experts on the net and youtube who will show us and advise us
how to fix a hole in the hull of a polyester boat with glass and polyester. Even if it's Don Casey
telling you to do this....DO NOT REPAIR OR REMODEL YOUR BOAT WITH POLYESTER RESIN.

Not a doctor, but, imco, VOC styrene and MEKP are far more dangerous than non-solvent epoxy}

Have yet to find a current manual on working with generic EPOXY 2-part resins. It will be loaded
with Bingham inspired diagrams, filled with MaineSail inspired photos, crammed with tips based
on real knowledge and actual experience....and organized in such a way as to take one reader
through the whole process of building a boat, also making it easy for another to dive in and get
help to repair or upgrade almost any problem on a typical craft. Anybody seen this animal?
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elliotr, suh, it's bad manners to horn in on your Gallery here, as I've done. Will visit
back and erase this post in the near future. Thanks. Ebb

[ebb]

Suppose you want to close off an old drain hole that had a tube tabbed over it (like the
cockpit drains just aft of the companionway bulkhead....OR one that had a seacock.
The common and correct method involves grinding a 12x1 dish around the hole on both
sides. It's a careful process that if you haven't done it before, probably needs discussion.
There a number of Youtubes that profess to show the correct way. First, there are dozens
of correct ways. Second, there is always a better way.
One guy has three or four videos on repairing a hole with polyester. Don't do it. The only
possible reason for this is the polyester gelcoat. But there is a way around that. If we are
disappearing a hole in the underbody of a boat, gelcoat is not necessary.
There is another guy with a video on repairing large damage on a Laser. Worth watching.
Did not 'study' the method, but it would be possible to do the repair with vinylester. The
repair does not have to stand up to forces an Ariel or Commander will endure offshore, or
even racing.
It's possible to find 'gelcoat' that can be applied over epoxy repair. Don't know about color
match, or matching 50 year old gelcoat.

But this is the problem with the video presentation: the order of the glass patching is wrong.
The dishing is made so that there is ample original material around the hole (in this example)
for the new material to grab while bridging and filling the hole. The video shows the first
patch just oversized and pasted on barely rimming the hole, then a slightly larger patch and
so forth - with the last glass layer going to the edge of the dishing. This is backwards....

It should be the other way round: the first patch layer of fiberglass should go over the hole
and out to the diameter of the dish first, then the gradually smaller ones.....leaving a very
slight depression (1/16") for paste fairing compound. You can find this correct way in one
of the GougeonBros fiberglass repair manuals*, expressed in a diagram.
This method leaves no seams on the dish repair surfaces, as the youtube expert expounded.
Seams that can possibly delaminate with pressure or hull stress at the repair.
*WestSystem Catalog002-550 FiberglassBoatRepair&Maintenance June,2004 pg29, Figure 4-5}

Our boats were manufactured exclusively with polyester resin. When working on A-338 we
noticed that all major components added to the hull, like the major bulkheads and stringers,
are tabbed on. The remodel required removing the 'splatter' paint Pearson used to dress up
the hull inside. We could then see tabbing and layering of various fabrics, mostly woven
roving and matt fiberglass. It was at these seams, and even where no seams were obvious,
that a flat Stanley chisel used to fair lumps off the surface could easily dive into a seam and
begin lifting off glass. I've reglued delaminated flaps back together with epoxy. Because
glass doesn'tt absorb resin, it only gets encapsulated, it is also possible with a sharp edge
like a chisel, to delaminate fiberglass reinforced hull along its fabric line. Dig in and start
peeling! This may be a Pearson anomaly, MEKP catalyst is added in drops or teaspoons into
large mixing pots of resin, hard to control proportions, easy to get it smoking hot and it's
gone off before soaking fully into the glass..... OR with too little catalyst, ending up with a
gummy mess that won't set. Blisters on later boat hulls are caused by water vapor getting
into the laminate and reacting with uncatalysed chemicals (not completely mixed) causing
eruptions like acne. Polyester layup requires expert control, and some luck, that may not
always be possible. Imco, this is the nature of polyester resin layup and the resin itself.
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Will also remove this post after a short time to allow your Gallery pages to grow
without this chunk of commentary. Thanks. Ebb

[elliotr]

There was a crack in my keel from the boat shifting around during moving. I ground down that crack with a file and fiber glassed over it using a fiberglass repair kit. I was planing on doing the same to the forward seacocks but with more material to match the thinness what ever it may be up at the v-birth. Is conventional modern fiberglass with the woven material and the 2:1 hardener not the correct material to use?

[ebb]

Assume you are using epoxy kits, probably West System.
The West System kit youtubes, at least the one I've just seen, is quick and to the point.
Repairing a deep fissure on a Whaler. To my curmudgeonary brain it's done properly!
They may have another on doing a hole repair,
such as repairing a thru-hull, where the repair is made from inside AND outside....as
I talked about above. If you are going to use their materials, their advise is best.
Mine is obviously prejudiced and related to Pearson Ariel experience and local TAP brand.
Which included not having materials in kit form. Using completely different materials than
WestSystem (except for one fine product).

Suggest, when you can, ask the board and include accompanying photos. Where the
problem is on the boat, is often a clue as to its fix. Other owners in the forum will have
experience with similar projects as yours....and can give specific resolutions.

Could say that pix in the Gallery forum are mandatory.:D

A "crack" in the bottom of the Ariel hull is not a cosmetic fix, imco.
THAT sounds like a major event! Where this crack appeared could be significant.
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Just reactivated an older thread "Epoxy VS Polyester with interesting fuel on the WestSystem feud,
with the quality of their resins in question. I don't use their toxins. But do see that, because they
are so easily available from a major brick&mortar in conveniet quantities, they proliferate anyway.
Just be extra careful using WestSystem epoxies.

[elliotr]

Ebb, thank you for your information. You've given me a lot to think about. Please don't delete your posts here. I'll be picking this conversation up in the spring. My boat is inside high and dry for the winter. Come April or May the work begins. Seems fitting to give the boat a full run down. Next year it's it's 50th birthyear. Thanks for your generous information.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Elliot,
For a different way of going about it, there are some pictures of my one and only attempt at deck repairs here: https://picasaweb.google.com/100988960116603858412/Deckjob also a little commentary on the job in the Lucky Dawg string (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot/page3&highlight=lucky+dawg ) starting at post #139. Good luck in the spring. This forum was super helpful in the process, so don't hesitate to speak up.

[carbonsoup]

Just wanted to chime in quickly regarding epoxy and Epoxyproducts.com. Ebb, you had said you hadnt used any of EpoxyProducts stuff, well I have done every bit of Triumph's refit using Paul's premium non-blush. I have used West System's product before and I would have to say that Epoxyproducts' stuff is every bit as good, except half the price. I have never had any weirdness relating to layup aside from me being a dumbass.

Regarding mixing techniques- here is what I have done and works well for me.
1. get yourself clear plastic, disposable 8oz cups from the store. Buy a 72 count qty and make sure you can get the SAME EXACT cup if you need to get more. This is important as to the way I measure!
2. Make a measuring 'base' by cutting a 3"x3" piece of scrap ply. Cut a 1"x1"x6" solid wood scrap and screw it to the ply scrap so it comes perpendicular to the planar surface of the ply. This base is where you are going to sit your cups and check the level against the markings you are going to make on the vertical stick.
3. get a shot glass, fill to very brim with water and dump into an empty plastic cup. do this twice = 2oz. Place the cup on the base and make a mark on the vertical stick with a sharpie. Try to be as level as you can.
4. fill the shot glass one more time and pour into the plastic cup. Make another mark on the vertical stick just above the previous mark.

You now have a measuring base that is going to mix 3oz (approx) of epoxy @ a 2-1 mixture.

There are a couple reasons why I have used this system: It doesnt matter how you get the epoxy into the plastic cup you will always end up with the same amount. You utilize the the same cup to measure and mix so you dont lose any material by measuring in separate cups. You dont waste cups. And, if I need to do a lot of layup I can pour several 3oz cups and let them sit before I mix. I have let 'poured', but unmixed epoxy sit for as much as an hour without any problems, though I cannot say that I tried letting them sit like this for and hour in the summer heat.

I bought epoxy in 1 1/2 gal increments with pumps. I found the pumps to be the least messy.

Enjoy! and buy plenty of nitrile gloves.

[ebb]

GREAT tip on getting levels in a favorite cup correct and repeatable.
It's absolutely critical to get mixing proportions correct when combining two-part epoxy.

The lotion pumps (PaulOman's term) or mustard pumps (System3's term) cannot be used
to measure (2 pumps of side one TO 1 pump of side two) because temperature causes
resin to thicken or thin AND time will oxidize the resin and clog the pump mechanism.
We can, of course, use them for dispensing into a graduated cup.

I am happy to hear that epoxyproducts.com '2-part Basic No-Blush laminating Epoxy'
works for you. Maybe I'll give it and the premium novalac version a try someday. I'm at
an end of days for buying multiple gals or 5gal pails.

Each of us has had to make up our own method of measuring sides of resin. I've just
looked up my brand on the net. I've used TAP premium laminating epoxy for decades.
It just worked out that way because they have a store in the area. It is a basically good
2to1, 100% solids system, that I haven't had blush on me, BUT in some moist
conditions it's said to have this problem. I have never had a failure with my mixing regimen.

In nearly every case there is no need to have anything but one graduated plastic quart 'cup'
for measuring part one and two into - mixing - then adding 'dry ingredients' like cabosil,
chopped strand, or fairing powder -depending on project- after initial combining.
All in the same pot.
Laminating epoxy can also be used as adhesive because measuring is precise... with
Cabosil added to whatever consistency. Seldom buy structural epoxy or putty fillers.

Went to the google 'TAP plastic measuring cups' site to see if what I find off the shelf
is pictured there. Yes, very important cup ebb uses is in the group photo, it's the clear one,
transparent and graduated 2.5"x2.5" 3oz cup.* That's small.... BUT it's a 16oz in the
photo. Ask for the 3oz (also have a 1.5oz). Smaller cups create higher sight levels for
smaller quantities. Straight sides, flat bottom, wide enough to take the flat bottom stir stick
you get free at the paint store. This mini lab gem has the graduated scale molded on the
inside in ML and OZ. Gives you a lot of lines to use to mix the smallest of 2-part quantities.*

This little cup has made it so easy to be versatile. I use one many times over by cleaning
it out with paper towels and alcohol. Stir sticks get used again. And the graduated quart
polyethylene container. These two cups make it easy to mix 2part from tablespoonful to
quart...in this type of plastic container....not paper cups that may be waxed or sprayed.
{* Years ago you bought long sleeves of waxed-paper graduated shot cups at TAP. One
day ebb brought into the store a 3oz plastic cup found on the net. And said to the guys
that they oughtn't be selling waxed cups for mixing resin. So I may have influenced them
to do it right...youknow, but they still don't seem to correctly catalog it for sale!!!!}
His 15 minutes of clout....that's why he's tootin 'is horn.

Wonder if Paul and System3 and Fibergast and TAP ever really have used their products.
Actually sweating it out on a couple projects.
Because the vendors all seem so halfast when it comes to making it easy to measure out
their messy chems for the poor chump consumer.
Want see-thru mixing cups with easy to see markings... making it easy to be accurate.
Vendors should offer project tested supplies for putting their resins together. NO BS.

Not into mustard pumps. I decant resins into 1 3/4" screw-cap F-style gallon metal cans.
Grab the body of the rectangular can and pour -at eye level- into Sharpie marked
graduated plastic qts and even the cute three oz cup. Takes special diet & practice!:D
But if the proportions are right, it's foolproof. And neat. Any dribbles left on the can
get wiped off right away. You loose the plastic qts and cups because the resin goes off.
But then treat self to fresh ones, and reward self by not wasting solvent cleaning
out the containers.

Paul Oman says, somewhere on his massive forest-of-words web site, that it's too hard
to explain step by step how to use stuff. That may be. Vendors aren't into the HOW-TO
part of their business. YouTube is the way to go. Every once in awhile I've watched
somebody present how-to...and do it well, and completely, and without patronizing, or
posing as an expert.
If you've found anyone with current videos on the net who has a natural gift for teaching,
or maybe call it, sharing
methods, tips, shortcuts, practical knowledge of marine epoxy use....be good to know...
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*Mixing tiny quantities of syrup ingredients may be something you do more often than
you think. When eye-balling quantities on ounce cups, it is arguably easier when the
sides are close like 2:1. Whatever volume, it's in 3 equal parts: 2 of A and 1 of B.
WestSystem epoxy sides are 5:1 making small amounts difficult to control,
and wasteful... because you have 6 equal proportions to line up: 5 of A and 1 of B.
Choices are limited, because quantity jumps become exponential.