Need a rudder?

[Commander 147]

Since I am converting Destiny to an inboard boat I have a perfectly good rudder that can be used on a outboard boat. The previous owner had this made and I believe it is similar in construction to what I am building now for Destiny. That is a plywood core wrapped in fiberglass. The shaft is stainless and continuous (which is why I needed to start over).

If you want it you pay shipping and give me what you think it is worth it is yours.

[Fritz]

Hi Jerry, I am interested in the rudder. I just purchase Commander #3 from Maine last month and the rudder looks a little tired. Any idea what the rudder weighs? I want to estimate the shipping cost to NJ. I'm assuming the rudder is in Brooksville, Fl.

Thanks

Fritz

[Commander 147]

Fritz

The rudder itself weighs in at 39 lbs. but it probably needs some type of crating around it to survive the trip north. And yes it is located in Brooksville, FL.

Let me know if you need anything else.

[Fritz]

Hi Jerry, sorry my delayed response. I am definitely interested in your rudder. I am going to visit my local ups store and get an approx. price on freight. I went online and it looks like there are two ups stores in your area. My thought is to have you drop it off at one of these ups stores and have them pack it appropriately and ship up to NJ for me. I just want to make sure that the shipping is reasonable before we proceed. Thanks for your patience. Fritz

[Commander 147]

Just let me know what you want to do Fritz. I'm not in a hurry.

[captcraig]

Hi Jerry, If Fritz doesn't end up buying your rudder then please let me know, I would like to purchase it, thanks Craig

[Fritz]

Hi Jerry, I went to UPS yesterday and got a shipping price...more reasonable than I thought. Please consider the rudder sold. I will email you later to work out price. I'm on a jobsite now and am working off my Blackberry. Fritz

Sorry Craig but thanks for not trying t buy it prior to my decision.

[Commander 147]

Hi Guys

Well Craig it looks like Fritz is going to take it.

I priced having a fiberglass rudder built and because they had to make a mold to do it it would have cost $5,000.00 to have it made. So I am glad someone will get some use out of this one that is in perfectly fine condition.

Fritz I will await your e-mail.

[Fritz]

Hi Jerry, I sent you a private email from my office computer a few hours ago. I am now home and looking for the email I sent you but can not find it. I just want to make sure you got it. I'm still learning how this forum works...want to make sure I did it right. If you did not get the email, I will resend.

Thanks

Fritz

[Commander 147]

Hi Jerry, I sent you a private email from my office computer a few hours ago. I am now home and looking for the email I sent you but can not find it. I just want to make sure you got it. I'm still learning how this forum works...want to make sure I did it right. If you did not get the email, I will resend.

Did not receive the message. I'll try sending you a private message with the phone number to call me.

[Fritz]

Hi Jerry, I did not recieve your private message. I sent you another one a few minutes ago. Maybe this one worked.

Thanks

Fritz

[Commander 147]

Fritz

Not sure what is going on but did not receive it.

call me at the following number.

[Scott Galloway]

Dear Jerry and Friends,

I need a rudder for my Pearson Ariel. It's a 53 year long story related to corrosion of the bronze shaft near the top rudder shaft bolt. It appears that you have sold your rudder. Does anyone else have a Pearson Ariel rudder for sale that is in good condition?

Regards,

Scott

[ebb]

Scott,

Awhile ago, after seeing someone here post his copy of the original
bronze shaft and Honduras plank rudder,

sent to Bill, our Leader, an ebb upgrade for building a new traditional
rudder. It uses the original plan of internal rods anchored to the shaft.
BUT
In my opinion the method is far easier and cleaner than the original.

Maybe you can wheedle a copy from Bill?

Your friend, Ebb

[Bill]

Is it the rudder shaft that's the problem, or the rudder itself? Ariels have a split shaft and often the upper portion gets corrosion damage, often from hot marinas. Replacing the upper portion of the shaft may be all that's needed. But, use marine bronze as SS will create a current between itself and all the other bronze underwater fittings on the boat, causing future failure. Search for rudder shaft using the Google method described in this forum for more information.

[ebb]

Littlgull nee Sun Quest came to me with a stainless steel rudder

shaft. It reacted with the rudder shoe, turning bronze into anode.

Ate it up. This apparent reversal of the norm is recorded by others.


My opinion is, and I did have a conversation with Roger Winiarsky,

that Bristol supplied the bronze to Pearson when they were building

Ariels and Commanders. HE SAID they supplied manganese bronze

for the rudders, shaft and rod. Manganese bronze cannot be used

under water.

Cannot live under water. There may be stainless steel that can live

under water, but it's too expensive. 316 cannot live under water.

And in live marinas reacts with any other metal, especially bronze.


From the existing, page 170

"NOTES:" column: #4.. UPPER & LOWER RUDDER STOCK MADE OF

NAVAL BRONZE. Naval bronze is naval brass, composed of 60%

copper, 39.2% zinc, 0.75% tin (to make it "corrosion resistant".) It's

a self-distruct battery, worse than manganese bronze in salt water.


Concept uses the original rudder drawing from the Association Manual,

with the two piece shaft to recreate the original rudder. Makes small

logical changes for a simpler stronger non-welded unit, and individual

DIY input. Uses all Everdur 655 silicon bronze. Under water bronze:

97% copper, 3% silicon, 0.9% manganese. Bet, it never corrodes at

the waterline inside the A/C rudder tube !!


After 53 years, you want a new rudder.

It's not hard if you DON'T follow exactly how they first did it.

Machine shop can do all the hard work on the shaft.

Found my old notes. Make copies and send you some?
.
.
.
.

[Scott Galloway]

Actually, I hauled my Ariel for routine hull maintenance and installation of a new transducer in July. The hull is in excellent shape. Regarding the rudder, the presenting problem was the rudder blade, which was apparently adversely affected by placing a zinc connected to an upper shaft bolt on the mahogany rudder. The rudder looked OK with the exception of some vertical cracks in the paint when first hauled, but as the rudder blade dried, the wood in the vicinity of the zinc split open revealing significant erosion of the wood. I installed the zinc with the intent of protecting the upper shaft after I inspected the rudder shaft some time ago. With the exception of an area about six inches around the zinc, the 53 year-old rudder blade is in excellent condition. While considering replacement of a section to the rudder or otherwise repairing it, we looked into the condition of the 53 year-old bronze rudder shaft.

The shaft at the the top the rudder is pink in part and there is significant loss of bronze in the immediate area of the topmost rudder bolt. This is the location where one would expect the shaft to break. If anyone has an Ariel rudder in good condition, that would be great. Otherwise it looks like a new rudder for my boat.

Now I do have a question. Many sail boats boats have stainless steel engine shafts and stainless steel rudder shafts. And many of those same boats also have bronze through hull fittings, bronze sea cocks etc. The Pearson Ariel has a bronze rudder shaft and a bronze rudder shoe. It certainly makes sense to use one metal for both components, but with the split Ariel rudder shaft, it appears that you cannot protect the rudder upper shaft with a rudder zinc without destroying the mahogany rudder blade, which through some research and personal experience appears to be a poor solution on a wood rudder and a poor solution on any wood boat for that matter...or it appears so from what I have recently read.

This is a quote from a wooden boat forum: "The reason that anodes on wooden boats are often NOT suggested is that the electrolytic action induced by the anode destroys the wood in the areas immediately surrounding the anode."

So has anyone actually had problems with a one piece stainless feel rudders shaft used on a Pearson Ariel with a bronze rudder shoe? I am considering a stainless steel shaft with a stainless steel reinforced rudder blade and the existing bronze rudder shoe. I have spoken in person to one owner who experienced failure of a bronze rudder bolt on a newer stainless steel rudder shaft. What have you all experienced?

[ebb]

Scott, As I said, there is literature on the mix of stainless steel shaft
in a bronze shoe.
Stainless attacks the bronze. I don't think it matters what alloy S.S.
The homemade rudder in A338 had one-piece stainless rudder shaft.
A zinc had been directly attached to the rudder shoe by removing
one of the pins and bolting on the zinc.

The bronze shoe was significantly eaten away, forget which side,
The shoe was loose. As I say, there is text to find on the phenomenon.

So, to be sure this gets across, altho I do not know the history of my
Ariel before I got it, WE cannot use a rudder with a stainless steel shaft
with the bronze shoe. A-338 wrote the book.

Fastening-sick wood is in the same neighborhood as galvanic corrosion.

If you are using zinc, you are creating galvanic corrosion. NEVER mix
metals under water. Wait until you notice something happening with
your regular maintenance. Then attach a small anode with a wary eye.

Don't wire your underwater metal thruhulls and seacocks together.
ISOLATE THEM. Install Marelon.

If you build a new rudder, two-piece or single, isolate every connection
with TEFGEL. Where you have metal faces touching, even the rudder
socket in the rudder shoe,Tefgel that too. Tefgel all metal to metal in the
tiller/head assembly. Stop electric pathways wherever possible.

I recommend, INSIST, that ALL metal in your traditional (original plank)
rudder be Everdur 655 silicon bronze. That can't be stated any more plain.
All interconnections, metal to metal are made with Tefgel. Simple.

If you do this, you will need no zinc, no galvanic connections in the water.

I extensively rebuilt the whole rear end of A-338. Rebent straight the
remaining metal of the ruddershoe and with bondo made a model, and
had California Casting in Richmond cast a new shoe. There was little
fiberglass in the moistly resin "keel post" at bottom - nothing for the
shoe to grab. Just saying you may by now in time have some little probs..

I still believe the original Ariel/Commander rudder is a work of art, worthy
of reproduction, using the best materials and methods.
The three planks that made up the rudder blade are not glued together.
Planks are 'strung' together with 3/8" internal rods.
There is no glue used in the original rudder. When out of the water the
wood is allowed to shrink (BUT NOT DRY OUT). Once back in its element
the Honduras will swell back to its rudderness, as it's done for 50 years ! !
THAT'S one hell-of-a-mahogany.

[Bill]

Re: protecting the upper half of the rudder shaft. Our fix is to use half of a battery jump cable with one end clamp removed and replaced with an anode. Clamp the cable to the top of the rudder shaft under the tiller head fitting and drop the anode end overboard. Been doing this for 30 years and have needed to replace a bunch of anodes (and a few jump cables), but no upper rudder shaft corrosion. No zincs on wood problems.

[Scott Galloway]

Thank you Bill,

I appreciate your experience based recommendation.

In addition to all of the discussion on galvanic action caused by dissimilar metals on a boat, a "hot" harbor can cause damage to any metallic underwater fitting, regardless of the meal used.Your solution address that problem.

I am not quite sure how you were able to clamp the jumper cable to the top of the rudder shaft under the tiller head fitting. Are you connecting the clamp to the rudder shaft or to the tiller head fitting beneath the tiller?

FYI, Martyr makes a removable zinc anode and a removable aluminum anode. I have never used one, but you can find them online with a search for:

Martyr CMGROUPERZ Zinc Alloy Grouper Hanging Anode Zinc


Regards,

Scott

[Bill]

To the tiller head fitting. BTW, there is another zinc attached to the rudder shoe to cover the lower half of the shaft.

[Bill]

Scott, the Grouper Hanging Anode looks just like my "jumper cable" arrangement, but maybe more expensive if you can't replace the exhausted anode.

[mrgnstrn]

I'll wade into this conversation knowing that discussion of electrolysis and galvanic action begins to sound more like a fight over which religion is better....
but here goes...

I can remember 15 or so years ago when I had to rebuild #3's rudder, I also had to replace the rudder shaft.

The original rudder was the two-part shaft style with a prop cutout.
At some point, a previous owner had put one of those flat, round zincs through the back of the rudder, not touching any of the metal bits.
At that point in time, it was ~ 40 years old or so.
By that point, the upper rudder was looking very pink-ish.

so I made the decision to replace the 2-part shaft and broken mahogany rudder with a single shaft and a plywood/fiberglass version of the same shape.

I'd have to go back in the archives here, but my recollection was that I agonized over which material to get for the shaft, in part because the upper part was looking very pink-ish.
Now, it had little to no cathodic protection during that entire 40 years, so that should not be surprising for a 40-year old hunk of bronze with no cathodic protection.

When all was said and done, I ended up re-using shoe and using a bronze (of some sort) shaft. and then put a zinc on the shoe. I just drilled a hole all the way at the bottom from port to starboard and put two tear-drop zincs on either side, with one big thru-bolt.

So while I appreciate all the discussion of which bronze is best, etc, I think that all of that can be essentially obviated with any sort of protection.

As to the stainless-bronze issue, again this seems overblown. almost every boat out there with an inboard engine has a stainless shaft and bronze prop. so we just slap a zinc on there and call it good.

As to the issue of zincs eating the mahogany, I can see that because the manner that an anode helps is by creating OH- ions which are very basic on the pH scale. bases are quite harmful to organic material (think Draino). But as long as there is any sort of space between the zinc and the wood, it should be fine. The issue is when you trap the OH- ions at the wood (like under a zinc bolted to the wood). so don't put your zinc on that way.
The "grouper" or my zinc at the shoe avoids it, and I'm sure there are other creative ways to accomplish it.

Just as a bit of perspective, Ariels and Commanders both went into service about the same time as the USS Enterprise.
She has since been retired....
In that time, almost every piece of metal touching the sea had been inspected, repaired, or replaced at least once, often many more times.

If you have to replace a rudder shaft every 40 years or so, I say that's a "win".
;)

[Ed Ekers]

Hey Scott, I have had a look at the new rudder being built. It looks great. I know there are a number of people here that would enjoy seeing the progress being made and the method that you have chosen. I would encourage you to share any pics that you might have and also pics of the old rudder (both the wood problem and the corrosion of the old shaft) .

[Scott Galloway]

Ed,

I do plan to post some information when the project is complete.

Scott

[Scott Galloway]

I promised a reply, but felt that the reply belonged on the "Rudder Discussion" thread on the technical forum. You will find my reply, a brief technical description of the project and photos there. I did install a new custom redesigned rudder on my boat. While waiting for the rudder to be manufactured, I repaired and resurfaced the nonskid area of the decks and some of he gelcoat areas as well,, so the boat is looking good. The original rudder lasted 53 years in salt water. It was still functioning at the time that I replaced it, but the amount of corrosion in the shaft in the area of the top rudder bolt was substantial. I saved the old rudder and shaft so that I can do some forensic research on the shaft.

[Ed Ekers]

Hey Scott the ol' girl looks great !