EBB's PHOTO GALLERY THREAD [Archive] - Pearson Ariel Association Forums

ebb

09-14-2002, 10:09 PM

Tony sir, shoot my eye out? Must be my daughter's generation. Shoot my wad, that I can do. This is a very expensive proposition that only the wise and the lucky should attempt. Otherwise you're like me: you just shoot first and pay the consequences later.

Rambling on:
The stringers now run continuous from stem to lazarette. In the fo'csl they taper to the stem. It's just kerfcut Alaskan yellow cedar (from decking material.) I copied Pearson's spwcs: 1 1/2" X 1 1/2", 3/4" rounded. Pearson's are mahogany. 338's are not a fair run main cabin to the forward compartment. Which for some reason annoys the hell outa me. Because I couldn't fix it.

The tunnels are epoxy frp gas pipe, it's about 2 3/16" ID. Pricey, Very strong and stiff. It's the forward drains that required the long run under the cockpit. That plywood Portageese strongback is gonna GO!

The pipe uses wierd cast epoxy 90s - T.s - and 45s. The T-leg is cut short and tight to the cokpit bottom to bring the run up as high as I could get it to get a decent drop. Exits above the waterline. (where's the waterline?) I put T's there into the cabin rather than 90s for cleanouts (othjerwise the run would be blind) and to maybe add a sink drain to one. The sink would have to be two inches deep. There are 45s at the transom exit to help keep backflow minimum. No flappers maybe.

I want to put scuppers in the rear too. There are many issues to be dealt with in this area. But they'll probably be straight thrus like the rudder tube.

Galley sink is another kettle of fish. If the refit ends up a bachelor pod, the bachelor then could lift one of the two buckets (IE double sink) and dump it down a special funnel in the cockpit scupper. Hell, this b. is tall enough to wash his bowl and spoon leaning over the bridgedeck from inside, almost.

The plan is to waterproof the cockpit lockers. And it's hard not to think about putting in propane lockers in the afterend. I'ld like to kick this one around with the captains courageous here.

cheers Mike, et al, soon as the jaberwoky whistles I'll hoist a Beamish Stout with the crew.

mrgnstrn

11-13-2002, 08:19 AM

hey ebb, i was wondering what your final plan is for plumbing, etc.
where/how much are your custom water tanks?
where is your holding tank going?
my current water tank is the original gavanized or common steel (can't tell which) and has rusted to oblivion.
and the holding tank was a 15-year old- .00005 mL capacity plastic bladder. originally sold as the (not kidding here) "Poo-Loo System" when i pulled on the handle to check the condition, the handle pulled out of the ultra thin plastic walls. so i am now totally out of USCG plumbing code. (good thing i am also totally out of the water...)
anyway, let us know your longterm plumbing plans (especially in-boat arragements and sources)

-km #3

ebb

11-13-2002, 09:41 AM

Capt. km#3. I had a monel tank up there in the Vee. I took it out per the tips in the Manual and recycled it. This is now where the chain locker is being constructed in 338.

So I moved the watertank(s) to both sides of the remaining V-berth. Laborously made two 1/4" luan ply models in the spaces (including barrelstaving the side along the hull.) Instead of a triangular section tank I glassed in a narrow foot for the tanks to rest on. So the tanks are sort of 4 sided. Plus ends.

(I figured the tanks to be about 20 gals each. That 300 pounds. a considerable weight up forward. That's bulkhead to blkhd under the original plywood berth tops.))

I then set about trying to find someone to make the damn things in polyethylene or polypropolene. Made up kits of photos and measurements and places for fittings. Not one single return. These custom guys who hot air weld the plastic can only think in right angles. The curved side of the tank, I think,must have insulted them.

I'm going to have to use the models for forms myself to make them out of vinylester and glass. This is probably not a problem, but I understand is very labor intensive - I can use the time elsewhere on the refit. One can still get tanks made from monel. At $600 a pop for the poly I got on one quote that didn't pan out I may ask a welding shop how many thousands a monel one goes for. Stainless is not currently a choice because of rust at the welds. But I will research that. It's also added weight. A glass one will no doubt weigh more than a metal one.

I really don't lnow as I haven't made any tanks befor. It just seemed easier to pay thru the nose for a hand crafted one than do it myself.

I thought the holding tank could go up forward if and when I get to it but don't know for sure. I'm putting in a new watertight bulkhead right where the watertank and the sanipooper used to be. The Theteford head will be right there where it has to be between the V-berths untill I upscale down the line. :rolleyes:

Yes, and I'm going to have to be monitered real close here by you guys when I do get to the plumbing and electrics!

Bill

12-17-2002, 07:53 PM

Ok, time to get back to the original thread. Although the olive harvest and wine crush were getting in the way, Ebb did make some progress in the past couple of months.

First there is the (very) modified outboard engine layout in the lazarette. Check this out . . .

Bill

12-17-2002, 08:01 PM

Hmm. Thought I had figured out how to
reduce the photo size, but I guess not.

Need to proceed, so please be patient
with these oversized pics.
Next, we have three views of the chain locker progress:

No 1 is taken from outside the forecabin

Bill

12-17-2002, 08:03 PM

No 2 is looking threw the new bulkhead

Bill

12-17-2002, 08:05 PM

Chainlocker number 3 is looking into the locker

Bill

12-17-2002, 08:08 PM

And, one more pic. This is a real work of art.

Bill

12-17-2002, 08:12 PM

There you are, photo exhibits of Ebb's progress.

Ebb will now answer your questions about the ob well modifications.

Janice Collins

12-18-2002, 03:01 AM

Bil, Appreciate the photos but you need to get them under control! Here's my method:

1. Drag the photo into Paint. (If you have Windows, you should have Paint in your programs.) It is found under "Accessories" in Programs. I put "Paint" on my desktop so I can easily drag the photo into it.

2. Once the photo is opened up in Paint, go to Image.
then select "Stretch". Then downsize, "50" works well in the horizontal and vertical boxes.

3. Then save it wherever.

Its a rather lengthy process that I detest, however it works. If there is an easier way, which I can't believe there isn't in this day and age of computer advances, somebody PLEASE let me know.

Now for that busy busy guy, Ebb, what is the purpose for the half circles in the chain locker, and what is that beautiful work of art shown in the last photo?

And Happy holidays to you all. I'm heading up North hopefully for a white New England Christmas.

:cool:

mrgnstrn

12-18-2002, 09:27 AM

now that you have that chain locker (a) where is your head going to be installed and (b) what are you going to do with the volume forward of the chainlocker?

what is the story with the OB well? is it an attempt to seal it off from the bilge and let the water drain from the well all by itself? or is it designed to ship the water into the cockpit so those drains can take care of it?

i really like the half circles in the vertical supports on the chain locker. are they there so you have access to tab/glass/glue/affix the small "shelves"?

but really beautiful work there, even if it doesn't all fit on my screen at once. :p

out
km#3

ebb

12-18-2002, 01:51 PM

Ok kids,
You'll notice first that the ledge over the cutouts is what remains of the original Vberth after excising the bow tank per the Manual's instructions.
The pieces with the cut outs are verticals that match the fore and aft bulkheads.

The idea is to have two poly boxes (troughs) made that would have a lip that would go over the ledge and be cinched down with permanent bolts coming up thru the ledge. Two bookmatched boxes separated foreandaft down the middle. The bolts would be long enuf to drop on lids that would be held down with wing nuts. To keep chain in place when the boat is "inverted."

These half circle openings are for access to insert the bolts up thru the holes and hold the heads to tighten.

After all ten bolts are jam nutted, the locker is to be Xmatted with epoxy, Four sides of the locker and the bottom. The holes will be spanned with the mat. hopefully creating a waterproof interior. It may need another layer of cloth to be sure. Then the poly boxes are to be made (but I'm still upset that no custom poly tank maker could be found willing or capable of making the new side watertanks.) So I think plywood will be a good alternative. And it's more replaceable down the line. The boxes are fastened in place with their own set of nuts. The lid goes on over with its own wingnuts. All on the same bolts.

The chainlocker and forepeak are in the 'crash bulkhead' watertight area so drainlines from each will be piped down the bilge to the sump. Screw-on caps or valves for control. One could hose out the forward lockers and pump it out from the sump under the companionway ladder.

Conceivably, the cloth and epoxy over the unfilled hole will allow cutting out to replace a mangled bolt. Afterall this is the chain and anchor locker. Just paste a piece of cloth and resin back over the hole. The holes in the bottom of the chainlocker can also be cut out if a major repair is necessary to the hull from inside.

Between the pvc pipes at the bottom of the new bulkhead in one of Bill's posters you'll notice a faint circle where the sonar thru-hull comes in. The sensor is molded into the cutwater edge of the stem. The actual sensor is not mounted yet. You may notice there is limited access under the chain locker here as well. This is where the bow tank supply was, the hole has been cut larger.

The portapotti will be mounted on a new removable platform there in the Vee. I really like the concept of a composting toilet. Airhead is the obvious candidate because of its size (smaller than Sunmar) but it is way taller than the Thetaphart. Like the idea that if you are forced by the unenlightened to cargo yer effluent around you might as well compost it. Does require constant elecricity. P.S. has a recent evaluation.

Bill

12-19-2002, 07:14 PM

Ok, we have figured out how to
reduce the photo size, but in the process, this pic got deleted and so had to be re posted here. Sorry about that. This is the first photo of the chain locker progress and was taken from just outside the forecabin.

ebb

12-20-2002, 08:22 AM

(thanks, Bill, for the much easier ride down this thread!)

Problem: Get an 8h Yamaha 4 stroke electric tilt to be happy in an antigue Ariel motor well.
Problem: No way to get the motor's muscular multipurpose arm operational unless strate-up vertical with the added ignominy of the rather large hatch open and clipped to the backstay.
Problem: Yamaha's muscular clamp drags in the water when mounted on original clamping board. [chorus, 'Get a Nissan 6, weighs only 20#!']

Solution: Cut the blinking offending cross bridge away and raise the motor 4". No brainer. [chorus, 'Didn't take any brains to make That change.']
A block and tackle end-of-boom mainsheet (no travelor) could conceivably still be mounted there. But a mid-boom (actually aft of mid-boom) sheet on the dodger frame over the companionway makes mucho better sense IMCO. I can see no structural compromise to the boat with the bridge taken out. [Chorus: hi-ho any engineers amongst us?]

Of course I don't believe that 100%. SO. You can surmise from Bill's photo that the cockpit well is not connected to the bulkhead. While there still is access we can get in from the cabin thru the side lazarettes, the cockpit will be heavily tabbed to the bulkhead and the bulkhead tabbed to the hull (missing in 338 under the cockpit.)

The white stuff in the photo is cardboard and doorskin. the ply clamp board is temporary. Playing with the space you can see what happens when you raise the 'gascan' deck up to the top of the original well. Looks to me we got at least an 8gal space each side (all the foam, everything's gone in the laz execept the well collar, so it's not hard to see.) Think: built in vinylester gas tank, bladder with access plate, foam positive flotation, or plain stowage - I opt for glassed in tanks. Who's going to insure this boat, anyway? OK, this gascan deck is the major element in the integrity of the well and the whole rear end of the Ariel. Distributes the vibration and loads of the motor thruout the stern. This could be the arguement FOR solid foam-in-place. What we took out was 3/8s fir ply with 1/4" laminate over. (remember, even that, all that polyester didn't keep water from entering the foam underneath.)

Just raising the clampboard 4 inches seems to create a possibility that the arc of the motor may have more or less the same radius as it is tilted in relation to the rise of the stern and the transom. So if the same portion of the shaft protrudes from the boat a solution to the backwash problem might be a simple overlapping rubber gland to protect the opening yet let the motor slip up and down. Certainly the slot in the transom might be treated this way Like a backflow flap on a thru-hull. Then again, it may all be rubber duck's breath.

mrgnstrn

12-22-2002, 08:59 AM

you asked...

"I can see no structural compromise to the boat with the bridge taken out.[Chorus: hi-ho any engineers amongst us?]"

actually, there are two parts to this story:

1) the bridge was under a bending moment because of the forces on the mainsheet. it performed the function of keeping the two parts closer to horizontal. and really, the vertical parts ofteh bridge are the work-horses here, just like in a steel I-beam. without it you will see much more flexure of the two posts, upward, and the most severe flexure will happen when one of the two sheet-halves is exactly vertical from the deck (when the boom is right over the post) the degree of flexure, i don't know, i could run a few calcs if the moment strikes me and if "Marks handbook" has values for shear strength of fiberglass.

2) the bridge was in compression. the two halves of the mainsheet angle toward each other and that component of the forces puts the bridge in compression. this means that the posts will have much greater flexture toward each other (in addition to the upward motion). this is greatest when the main is between the two posts, but is always evident regardless of boom position.

some back-of the envelope calcs will some reduction in ultimate strength and increase in flexture, but really some Finite element analysis will show how much the surrounding structure supports the posts. attached is an image that i might use as my b.o.t.e. calcs.

ebb

12-22-2002, 10:02 PM

Ariel is essentially a monocogue, ie it is the skin that carries the forces put upon it.

If you mounted blocks on either side of the opening where the 'bridge' was and pull up or sideways on them the stress is taken up instantaneously by a multitude of points strengthened by the curves and stiffened by the turns in the surface of the craft.

The force could be so great on one point it might tear out a chunk - but the essential shape can't change. Of course there could be sheer forces that might delaminate the skin.

Bulkheads keep the boat from twisting. Bamboo is an example of this construction. We have a matching set of longitudinal stiffners to insure against oilcanning - or shape changing, which really would compromise the structure. The more bulkheads, the better they are tabbed in, the less twist and canning. (I will bet that the sweet rounded form of the hull and it's thickness has never oil-canned in anybody's experience?)

The problem of the missing bridge may be that there is not enuf bulkhead there to totally stabilize the aft end of our peapod. Suppose we think of it as just an extra long cockpit. Now that the bridge is down.

That's why lifting the 'gascan' deck to make a horizontal bulkhead might help. Ribbing or flanges going up to the deck on the sides of the tilting slot may add some immobility. Altering that signature great-hatch by reconfiguring the deck back there - making it wider with a smaller hatch - keeping the look and sculpture, but only raise a center portion.

The cockpit well is not connected to the companionway bulkhead or the aft bulkhead. It's just hanging in there - part of the deck mold. I'm convinced that the cockpit must be majorly married to the lazarette bulkhead. This ought to create solid bracing and stiffness for the new open and much longer than the Commander's cockpit. It's redundant strength, and over-building and weight, paranoia, etc - because IMCO the shape won't change. Have to keep it from twisting.

Squeezed between two freighters? Sure. On a coral reef in a typoon... the boat's a sugar cube

well, that's what I feel. You'ld have to perform actual tests on the boat to produce engineering data, wouldn't you, Capt Mrgnstn.....?

Bill

05-15-2003, 07:57 PM

Another visit to the Borregaard Yacht Works in San Rafael. This time, we will be looking at the progress on some of Ebb's more interesting modifications. Beginning with the outboard motor well:

Bill

05-15-2003, 07:58 PM

View #2 of the ob well:

Bill

05-15-2003, 07:59 PM

And the view from the outside:

Bill

05-15-2003, 08:00 PM

Then there is the "new" foredeck hatch. Actually, it's to access the anchor chain from the chain locker:

Bill

05-15-2003, 08:03 PM

Another view of the foredeck hatch:

Bill

05-15-2003, 08:03 PM

Third & final . . .

Bill

05-15-2003, 08:04 PM

Let's go inside and take a look at the new chain locker:

Bill

05-15-2003, 08:05 PM

And the well in the chainlocker:

Bill

05-15-2003, 08:06 PM

And the drains leading from the chainlocker:

Bill

05-15-2003, 08:08 PM

Finally, Ebb did a handsome job of glassing the tubes that pass through the cockpit sole to the hull (rudder shaft and two aft cockpit drains).

Tony G

05-17-2003, 07:55 AM

Well-I guess they all just accept it from you by now! But I've got some questions...when are you coming to MN next?:D When I peeled open the lazarette I was disapointed. Lots of unsaturated glass, huge gaps between the plywood and glass laminates, no where near as structural as I expected, etc., etc.. I am begining to believe Pearson never imagined these boats would last this long and therefore did marginal work. Or did I just get a lemon?
In the first new photo...You've beefed up(read added) the bulkhead between the lazarette and the c-pit. Is that new bulkhead sistered to the factory sort-of one allready there or is it new construction all the way? On 113 that partial filler plywood piece that spans the area from the hull curvature upwards to a horizontal plane about even with the c-pit floor is canted aft big time. I wouldn't be able to sister a plywood bulkhead to it from top to bottom. So I'm wondering if 338 had just as lousy glass work back there and you replaced it or if you had something more substantial and even to begin with. In your earlier posts you stressed the need for strength in that area because of the c-pit reconfiguration and from what I've seen that would mean rebuild.
Up front
Is that a solid epoxy riser in the shape of the foredeck hatch frame or am I seeing things(again)? If it is, how did you get that shape so well? Surely wasn't tooled! Molded insitu?
Down below
In photo #9 I can follow the drain pipes coming from the Pearson anchor chain locker okay but to the right and running mostly vertical there is a slightly curved pipe peeking through the cut-out where the old water tank effluent would have been. Is that more drainage? From the Ebb chain locker perhaps I thought but no, you're having some poly tubs made for rode storage and it couldn't serve them because they are not there in the photo. What the devil is that!!
Photo # 10
Ester, would you look at the pipes on that fella! Are 338's new c-pit drains more of the frp gas pipe used for the forward scuppers? Nice work but here I'm more interested in technique. Do you lower your epoxy and glass, tools etc. down one c-pit hatch then climb in the other and work or did you have help? Devine intervention?
Looks real good, Ebb. Your work on 338 keeps me inspired and motivated way over here in the frozen north. We won't be doing anything as 'radical' as you but then we're just blowin' around some pot holes and you're gonna plant yer toes in some warm foreign sand. Tony G

ebb

05-17-2003, 06:44 PM

Something here. I'm rilly glad yer innerested on this remod. I do want feedback, I do want to be called on stuff. I don't want to screw up a gorgeous Alberg design. Sometimes I think the way I express my views is confusing and annoying. Even to myself. Need all the help I can get.

Capt. Tony'
Your aft bulkhead sounds like it deserves a photo here. The bulkhead is a single piece of 3/4 ply. There just might be an extra piece put in as a filler that got dislodged. There is a filler in the OB access hole, around the inside, which allowed mat to be drapped around more easyly when they were finishing the hole. But it is no bigger than the end of the cockpit. It's just filler. The space must have been thought necessary to make it easier to mate the deck/cockpit molding with the hull when assembling the boat. They allowed themselves Plenty of room.

338's sounds somewhat like yours, but I have since found that it is at right angles to the center line, meaning that it was put in square and vertical. However when the farmers put it in they cut it much too small so there was huge gaps on the edges that were indeed stuffed with unsaturated mat and roving. I tore out everything that was loose, cleaned out the holes, filled them with pints of mishmash, radiused the corners and reglassed the bulkhead with x-mat & epoxy and tabbed it to the hull.

Having no engine below, having removed the icebox which in 338 had a large hole cut in the companionway blkhd, I cut a simular hole in the port side. Tho with the seacocks and hose removed from the aft cockpit drains I discovered it was very easy to haul oneself under the c'pit and into the locker areas with the pegboard discarded - to get to the inside of the lazarette bulkhead.

After the blkhd was faired and glassed on both sides, the space between the back of the c'pit well and the blkhd was furred-out and filled and glassed to the blkhd. Did the same at the other end. Thus marrying the cockpit footwell to the bulkheads,

There are stress cracks where the rudder tube comes into the c'pit floor, where Pearson had put very little reinforcement on the underside of the deck. (More may have been a bad idea,) If I wanted to put in 'straight-thru' drains (just like the rudder tube) I felt I had to immobilized whatever possible, to the greatest extent reasonable. I glassed the tubes in first with x-mat going thru the holes with the tube and turning the mat onto the flats outside, Then I laid on another layer of mat over the pipe and up to the inside. The inside of the hull and the underside of the c'pit. Then there is the bugle-shaped sculpting (epoxy/cabosil/chopped strand) and a final layer of mat. The rudder tube got the bugle up top to match the bottom Pearson did - with extra layers of mat. Interesting that the cockpit sole still can flex when walked on - it is about 3/16s thick with strips of plywood matted to the bottom for stiffning. Not a whole lot.

There are, of course, arguable merits to leaving the cockpit suspended and semi-flexible. I chose to lock it all together because I removed the aft bridge (and Mrgnstrn was on my case) Monoque. I warn you that the grinding and prep necessary especially of the hull and the underside to the cockpit structure is beyond the pale, or pail, whatever it is, you have to be Nuts to undertakeit! I had heroic help!
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...
MORE ABOUT POST #47
Way later EDIT (7/13)
Back in 2007-8 there appeared in a Seacocks thread on the Fuji Yacht Owners Forum (Fuji Yachts Home Page) an exchange
where the three tubes photo was reproduced in that thread and comments where made: anzam1 said, .... "This set up looks pretty failsafe to me and I would not be opposed to something like that on my boat."
BrianC responds: "One serious proviso.....If anyone does this !DO NOT! use all the filler this person has done to create a grossly oversized fillet. All that filler is a weak link in the system. A fillet is certainly needed (glass will not assume a sharp bend and even if it did, glass is strongest when the fibers are straight) but max 1" radius is more than si=ufficient. Even less is sufficient if the glassing is applied spiral fashion. The pix on my site do not shown the way the glass is applied so I will try and get some time shortly to do a mockup for photos that show what I am talking about."

In the thread this is quoted from, which was about thru-hulls and seacocks, nobody commented on what BrianC posted. No right-way-to-do-it
photos appeared.... that this person saw. I think most readers could see that BrianC's experience with FRP was limited. And he also did not know what the situation was under the cockpit in 'this person's' Ariel.
The bell shaped expansions at the top and bottom of the tubes (while perhaps not aesthetically pleasing) are not "FILLETS." Call them bolsters, maybe. They are reinforcement backing for inaccessible holes thru the hull - that can not have valves to shut them off if damaged. They are definitely overbuilt - they probably should be isolated with a protective bulkhead in case a battery ever gets loose when upside down at sea. BUT I thought them pleasing, if not whimsical, because I modeled my additions after Pearson's original free standing rudder tube stalagmite using their bugle reinforcement of the rudder tube where it comes into the Ariel hull at the waterline. Bettered theirs up a bit.... and buttered up the new drains made with 3/32" thick spiral wall gasline epoxy pipe -- into hollow support columns.

Epoxy is used, of course, to upgrade ancient polyester. By definition this is 'dry' construction, as opposed to wet where additions are added to green frp work as the boat is being built at factory, by my definition overbuilding is a good idea. The bell shape widens the dead loads that will occur on this cockpit floor, that also transfer to the hull.
You may notice in the photo, this cockpit has been immobilized with longitudinal bulkheads that marry the free hanging cockpit "bowl" to the hull beneath it.
The rudder tube (with its bell-shaped buildup of matt and who knows what?) was not attached (glued/glassed) to the underside of the cockpit BUT deliberately by Pearson - because Ariel cockpits are hung loose and unsupported - not attached anywhere except higher up where the molding becomes seats and bridgedeck. Had a real problem with that concept!
Since I stabilized the cockpit, I attached the rudder tube to the sole.
ALL the new bell-ends are composed of mishmash (epoxy, fumed silica, chopped strand) on top of fiberglass, as describe above here, with more glass cloth or biaxial matt on top of everything to finish. These tubes support compression loads....the cockpit floor -- in A338's case of factory encapsulated plywood strip reinforcement -- still somewhat limber...
Again, not BrianC's textbook construct. But thick backup plates of bullet-proof mishmash is not unknown (see "Fibreglass Boats, by Hugo duPlessis, AdlardColes 1966. Reinforcing frp tubes per se' is not covered there, but it has been my glass bible since the beginning.)
About as strong as I can see how to do.... on my stomach with arms genuflecting.... into that cramped (and soon to be forgotten) corner in the aft end of the cockpit! There will, of course, be an access hatch in the sole into that part of the boat - as there should be. Batteries will be under the bridge-deck where in other Ariel's an Atomic 4 was intended.

ebb

05-17-2003, 08:30 PM

OK. I make pretty careful patterns out of poster paper. Then it gets traced onto x-mat. If there are bends I dot lines on the mat so I know exactly where it goes on the work. X-mat* is mat with light roving sewn to it, it is very docile, unlike cloth, it doesn't mind being poked into corners eg. Compound corners a problems but yer likely to do it without getting bubbles. I cut it with scissors -- even wet with resin -- if I get a dart wrong. It is easy to pile on layers. *Biaxial matt comes in a few heavy weights, and also in 'tapes'. This is matt made for epoxy resins.

When you start, it is just stiff enuf to stand against the work upright. So you can test it first if you don't trust yer pattern. It likes to stay where you put it. Then you wet the work, with lots of resin, pat the mat in place, you can briefly reposition, move it around, unlike cloth. The surface stays dry for a short while while you try to find a position to lie in with the container of mix on your chest or perched on yer neck and where you figure the brush will end up at the end of your arm which is on the wrong side of you body. Wetting it out sticks it good to the work and you use the tip of the brush to work out a bubble or flatten a hair or poke it into a corner. A 2 or 2 1/2" china bristle brush fits the tight work best, have more control moving the liguid to the mat. Too much epoxy and it can run out... but it's so thirsty you'll never allow yourself the luxury of too much!

Preferably, you can wet out the matt on plastic film, peel it off, slap it on, press it tight...without dragging a wet brush to your work. You can also make your gloved handy-work look clean and also soak up resin by laying on thin 4 or 6 oz woven glass cloth. Biaxial matt doesn't like handling. You can extend working time on matt by poking and pushing with the chip brush... But you can gloved hand shape & sculpt by cheating with pieces of light weight glass fabric. (However, if you later are going to grind or scrape when set, stay with the matt. Cloth is for finishing.)

When hard, it leaves an extremely rough surface that you cannot easily sand to prep - so you must use no-blush 100% solids epoxy, if like I often do, leave it for a day or two. The matt is a perfect mechanical surface to add to, without prep grinding, IMCO

Clean up accidents and runs and the work area with paper rags and isopropyl alcohol*. I have favorite mixing containers so I wipe them out with alcohol too. Mix Part A and Part B in straight-sided pint containers using a wooden paint stirring stick constantly scrapping the side of the pot. I often decant into a larger pail, and stir some more. The brush won't drown if the juice isn't deep and won't run the handle as much. Don't draw the bristles outward across the edge - pat one side of the loaded brush on the inside of the pail and quickly go to the work befor the brush understands what you're doing and recovers... to drip on your hair.
*Hardware store Methyl alcohol is toxic. It's better to use 91% Isopropyl alcohol from the drug store.

When it's hard, I use Sandvic carbide scrapers, smallest makita angle grinder with those hard-flapper disks, cloth back grit for finger work. Anything shiney: scuff it. Better to work on it first day or two befor it turns hard and glassy.

Hey, you still with me, boy? Wake up, there!!:D

Tony G

05-19-2003, 05:05 AM

Ebb
You've mentioned no-blush all solids epoxy...what is your brand?

commanderpete

05-22-2003, 04:50 PM

Great stuff, ebb. Very ingenious.

I've been thinking about adding extra cockpit drains too. However, I'm concerned that seawater might be forced up the short tube into the cockpit. "Ram effect," or something like that. Not alot of water, just an annoying little bit.

I have a friend whose boat does that, but only sometimes. I think it happens when the boat is heeled over and extra crew brings the stern down.

Some people cross the drains to the opposite side. But, that is supposed to make the drains less able to empty the cockpit of boarding seas, which is the whole purpose.

Anyways, nice work there.

What's the name of your baby?

ebb

05-25-2003, 09:29 AM

Gentlemen, Thank you.
I did post a reply, but it ain't here!!!

First, Tony, did you get the reply on the beam lam? Hope so.

C'Pete,
I tried to take into account the consequences of putting the rear drains in like they are with the cockpit deck so close to the waterline. [338s forward drains exit aft Above the current waterline, while the rear drains exit aft under the current waterline.] It was a shoot first take the consequences later decision. Ive spent hours looking for a retrofit flapper valve. No wonder Pearson didn't put in rear drains. There are a number of different kinds. Ones at the cockpit deck like a ball in a cage type take up too much of the drain volume. But are right there to keep an eye on.

A power boat exhaust flapper on the bottom side in the water would probably be my choice, but I worry about the pressure of the outside water not allowing the cockpit to evacuate. So nix that. I'm thinking the flapper idea could be adapted to the cockpit deck drain. But again, at what cost to emptying the c'pit quickly?

So, how about a sliding ss or bronze drain plate that could slide open fully when needed. It would be captured under a flange, the flange screwed like any fitting to the deck. Yah shure, there are design considerations here and a month or two of design time and model making, etc. For the moment, when I go sailing (OH GLORIOUS DAY) I'll screw shower drains over the holes. Something will come up. Hopefully not too much briney.

I was thinking, the holes might make annoying gurggling sounds, as well.

Crossing the drains could be done couldn't it? Would one use hose? Probably dangerous in the back without ready access. Seacocks: impossible. What considerations are there at the companionway in a Commander? It would be possible to do a 'hard' install in the back with angles and pipe. PVC and epoxy mate well, I've heard. It IS tight back there!

The ball in a cage check valve is worth looking into. There are a couple, anyway, and if I recall, they are a fitting - in that they can be incorporated into normal or existing plumbing.

"Life is hard, but it sure is a lot of fun!":D

ebb

05-28-2003, 05:20 PM

Tony, haven't heard on several of your issues. Here is something on the after cockpit bulkhead.
On the 2nd page of this thread about half way down is one of Bill's photos from the first shoot that shows 338's cockpit with the aft 'bridge' cut away. It clearly shows the sides of the vertical hatch that provided access to the OB well and lazarette. The bulkhead is the ply that is closest to the inside of the lazarette. The ply that is closest to the cockpit is the filler.

The filler, in 338, is no wider or any longer than the well. The factory put it in to enable the drapping of the mat around the hatch there when they were closing the boat in. I suppose it could be a different shape in yours.

Is this the piece that came loose in 113? I really don't see any way the bulkhead could have moved even if there is lot of unsaturated garbaqe along the hull inside under the funky tabbing. The funky tabbing they never thought anybody would see - except you and me! The lazarette bulkhead is also tabbed to the hull on the laz. side. So it is very secure.

#6 photo shows the Bomar riser made from the mahogany strip liner in the hole with mishmash on the outside under the hatch bottom.

#9 shows the access under the chain locker, Just access. Three tubes: Straight one on left comes from drain hole in forepeak. Bent one on right sweeps up to hole in chain locker. Both will continue by conduit under the sole to the sump and end in threaded ball cocks. Short upright is a piece of the sonar model which is sculpted into the stem. Cheers................Ebb

Tony G

05-30-2003, 07:46 AM

Ebb
I'm still here. Maybe this weekend I can get some pics loaded to the site and that may flesh out the piece of usless ply I've been asking about. Except now that I've ground away all the unsaturated roving and glass it doesn't look as scary. Still has to go! After all we gotta clear that area for a new mizzen mast step just in case. Why did you 86 the inboard for an outboard again?

ebb

05-30-2003, 09:53 AM

Capt. T,
338 came from the factory with an OB well. What appears to be an extra large hole is what it looks like after the box or collar or sides of the well were removed. It was ground back even further when it was discovered that the hull mold was made with the OB hole - you know, like the deck mold was made with the hatch holes in place - but just a flange - and the well sides added later after the deck was attached to the boat.
Also ground that flange away which was gel coated and incorporated into the joining process. Didn't want to rely on old polyester pasted onto gel coat. The well also looked like later alterations had been done.

I felt the Yamaha 8/4. had to be custom fitted because it's so big and heavy.

What was below at the bottom of the companionway in 338 and in thw way of any access were the stubbed off factory straight-thrus and later added seacocks with hose etc. Is was C'Pete who pointed out the many connecting points (that can go wrong) like clamps, hose, valves etc. I committed early on to continuing with the OB and wanted the space below the c'pit for stowage. Drains went out the back.

When Capt. Brent thought about putting his batteries under the cockpit, I thought it a great idea. So batteries where the BETA diesel would go became my plan - I have the flush deck access hatch for the c'pit. The framing under the cockpit for the bats and rather large hatch will create substancial strength and rigidity.

The long answer:D

Hope you are proceeding with your upgrade!!!!!

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:43 PM

Paid another visit to #338 and here are the results.

The first photos are of the "motor clamp board" being installed at the forward end of the ob well . . from below

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:44 PM

And from above (ie., from the cockpit)

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:45 PM

Next, we have the fuel tanks (the starboard side is shown). The hold approximately 8 gal each.

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:47 PM

Here is the top of the tank and lid assembly as modeled by the captain ..

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:49 PM

Here is the new bottom deck in the port cockpit locker.

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:50 PM

The forward bulkhead in the port cockpit locker. When completed, the locker will be sealed off from the interior of the boat.

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:52 PM

Approximate location where the propane tanks will go UNDER the deck (one will be outboard of the tank in the photo).

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:54 PM

Quarter berth is moved back into starboard cockpit locker. It will be sectioned off from hatch by creating a small storage locker under the hatch cover that will be sealed off from the interior.

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:55 PM

Starboard quater berth from the main cabin. Photo on bulkhead is of Cape Dory 25 from same the angle. Appears to be a model for the modification.

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:57 PM

The new (yet to be installed) mast base step.

Bill

08-14-2003, 08:58 PM

It will move as shown by the capitan.

Tony G

08-15-2003, 05:57 AM

Ebb
Holy Hot Tomale! There's lots of really good stuff goin' on out there in CA. (Unfortunately none of it has to do with the 'gubinatorial' race-Coleman all the way, right? Finish your boat fast.)
As always you have first-class work all the way on 338. Love the outboard well. It looks 'wet' to me but hey I lack ALOT of experience when it comes to sailing these boats. Did you scrap the aft cockpit scuppers or am I not really seeing what I think I'm seeing? We'll be watching the propane locker ever so closely as I'm trying to find a place to put them on 113. I was thinking a small locker forward because even with a pretty good heel the drain vent would still be above the waterline though I don't anticipate being on any tack for several days at a time and it would mean a longer run of supply hose inside the cabin(think propain not propane). I don't want to put one topside because no matter what they look footlockers lashed to the deck and besides that's where the genset and A/C belong. Port cockpit locker has a smaller rectangular access cut into the floor. What has Ebb planned for that bugger? Quarter berth, fantastico! Even the remainder of the aft bulkhead looks comfortable. And finally, how 'bout that mast step! I think I'll have to add one of those to our order.
I'm jealous Ebb, tell us what's what! It's so humid here the tyvek sticks like a wet suit and restrict your movements. I've given up trying untill we get cooler, drier air. Tony G

ebb

08-15-2003, 08:05 AM

Thanks Bill, more forensics for an emerging body of evidence!

Hey, Tony, too bad about the wet where you are. Here, it's just the epoxy going off in ten minutes and dripping gallons of sweat into the work.

The OB well as you see it would indeed be wet. The hole is still in its grinded back state. Will try some ideas out on just how to close it up a bit. Soon.

The aft scuppers have a patch still on them from the final leveling. Never got round to the final color coat or cutting the hole free. Wear is doing the job.

Man, I have Agonized over the propane locker. That little stubby bulkhead under the locker-lid scupper isn't glassed in yet. Putting the locker there makes the only remaining exterior locker space very short and small. But the gas would be right next to the appliance. Though much too close to the waterline. Any feedback on that, guys? Couldn't use the stove, probably, except in the marina. Or on a port tack. Maybe here one could use one of those ball-in-cage backflow devices??? I mean on the thru hull drain out the side of the locker!

It'll take a bit of Houdini to glass it in properly. In fact, getting the bottom of the whole locker in took 1/2 an hour of jockying! The bottom of the locker is above the level of the cockpit deck and tilts toward it for draining.

I may go with a square rather than round (shopmade) hatch to get better access to regulator, gauge and hose. You need a 12 1/2" hole to get those 10# (2 1/2 gal) tanks in. And they are not a common size. A slightly shorter version than I got of these are available from W.M. (They don't 'stock' these catalog items so you can't go in and actually measure them - the catalog sez they are 12 1/2 " tall - mine from a propane service at $38 a pop are 14 - But I was desparate!)

Because under the cockpit is home to the battery box (yet to come,) that access hole in the locker is just that. You need to get to any part of the hull with relative ease. If I put another stubby bulkhead under the locker deck. I'll be able to use that area for extra stowage, and not loose stuff down under. Underneath the proposed propane locker there is space for mounting electrical support toys with access behind the ladder and under the bridge deck.

I have also put in longitudinal bulkheads that run along the edge of the cockpit underneath. They run from the lazarette bulkhead to the companionway blkhd. And provide another kind of stringer in the rise of the hull from the keel. Have we got Strong or what!!!

commanderpete

08-15-2003, 08:51 AM

A Mighty Ariel to be sure.

But, the boat won't be complete without an oceangoing wine rack.

http://www.drycreekvineyard.com/nautical/wine_rack.html

ebb

08-15-2003, 11:26 AM

How Do you find this stuff Cpete?

How about that rack... a 4 bottle carbon fibre & teak rack for an 8 month voyage! I guess the wine ain't for quaffing. In choosing yer luxuries, you should also include an argon gas cylinder for topping off opened bottles to keep the wine from oxydizing. They might consider freeze drying the wine to go with their alpine cuisine to save space - or putting a bladder in the bilge and recycling the glass to save weight! I heard once that the sloshing of unbottled cabernet in a tanker's bilge accelerates the aging nicely! Like a two week vovage and you get ten year old wine.

Can't afford the wine I like to drink, but why shouldn't any Ariel consider making ale like the great Chichester, wasn't it.? I believe you once gave us some pix of the famous sloshed skipper and all on that! But Not the recipe or a diagram of the gear! Now There is some gear you might lash to yer mast for lack of a locker!!!

commanderpete

08-18-2003, 05:07 AM

Sir Francis and his beer tap

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228&highlight=useful+project

Of course, Sir Francis also brought along a good selection of wine and liquor. He had to stop in Australia for more supplies and added the following.

Could have used a little rum.

commanderpete

08-18-2003, 05:10 AM

Here it is

ebb

08-18-2003, 08:36 AM

C'pete, Thanks again for another shot of KBE Sir Francis!
Was going to comment after looking at the list of liguid stores that it was no wonder he had to have a 'self-leveling chair.' But in quantity there's hardly enuf to get around the Horn! There's a site kept by his son in honor of his courageous odds-beater dad. Found it on the internet thru google. Gives a chronology, back of the photos, that proves he was an amazing survivor. He beat cancer eg to make his round the world run. His map business has a site still. He also wrote a whole bunch of books...you might say he was another crazy writer...but British.:rolleyes:

This weekend we got the Yamaha mounted on the clamp-board. Moving the mounting position forward and the size of the unit means I have to take the arm off and place the controls in the well. [uhhh, the cockpit foot well] Didn't want to do that!

The center of the prop on this motor is 16" below the waterline! Will have to consult with an expert on this situation.:confused:

Mike Goodwin

08-18-2003, 02:11 PM

Ebb,
How are you sealing and venting the propane locker from the rest of the boat ?

ebb

08-18-2003, 05:45 PM

Capt Mike,
and anybody else,
have deleted these posts because IMCO the propane tanks CANNOT be put in a cockpit locker - there is no way to provide drainage for the locker on port tacks. Regs say that the propane locker must always be free to drain.

ebb

08-19-2003, 07:34 AM

[Can't leave this alone for 5 minutes. Add this to the stew:
Ok, so we can live with the thru hull drain on the outside of the boat - BUT if you are tipped on the other tack the gas can puddle on the cockpit side. What to do? We can't lead a drain out any lower that the cockpit deck, right? What would the regulators say???]

ebb

08-19-2003, 08:30 AM

No way can a propane locker go in the cockpit on an Ariel.

[I will leave the above posts alone for the cognisenti and those who might enjoy seeing ebb writhe in mental anguish & embarrasemnt. Tonight I'm going to edit the above posts as radically as allowed.]:o

LOOK,
Does anybody have anything to say on the subject?
What have others done about the propane situation?

A campstove with the 1# throwaways is certainly an option for non-live-aboards. There's a gizmo you can get for refilling the cannisters - but you have to freeze them first! How about that. Not easy, but do-able for the weekender.

Had to bite the bullet and go to the unmentionable marine suypermarket to get some polysulfide. $10 for a toothpaste sized tube. But on display was as 10# aluminum propane bottle that had brackets welded on it for horizontal mounting. .........11" round, including the brackets, and barely 16" long. ...........So I'm back to thinking about the cockpit locker again!!!
The problem would be how to mount them high up under the seat, create a glassed in 'false' bottom in the locker. And figure out a double drain system or a single drain from the center of the floor to lead out the hull. Any comments? Much appreciated!

Tony G

10-07-2003, 05:41 AM

Ebb,
Those aluminum bottles sound like a better banana-mouse trap. If they were a few inches smaller in diameter it would be easier to tuck them up under a C-pit seat and vent (I really like your idea there). Have you thought about just biting the bullet and mounting a couple of bottles on the pushpit? Easy, no plug venting readilly available now!
Hey, I'm still way back at the forward hatch-How did you get that footprint riser built up and what's underneath it on the inside. Tony G

ebb

10-07-2003, 08:49 AM

J. H. Chriminee! those bottles...maybe the horiz alum Could go in the c'pit seat next to the bridge deck near where the cooker would go. BUT, I'ld only assign them 2 that space to the right of the locker lid. It's fairly useless space unless you're prone to stuffing the locker to the top. So what is avalable as a ready made hatch? NOTHING. So you'ld have to saw out the lid, probably opening not only the top but down the side in front.......Can't face it at this point.

Besides, I don't think, even if you gained a few inches by mounting them high under thw seat that when you're tipped the locker could drain properly. Too close to the waterline. Bummer

Bottles in the pushpit, dressed in blue, be the very last resort. I nearly decided to carry only trailmix on board and a swing-stove with 1# throwaways. No kidding.

The foredeck surround for the hatch. Made a 1/2" liner for the hole, deep enough to tuck the under deck backup strips against it. Then I took the hatch bottom and carpet taped the bottom of it (originally I peeled the tape and stuck on mylar, but the stuff already on the tape releases just as well.) Laboriously wrapped the edge of the bottom, the Bomar is 1/4" high there and rounded too. Clamp it to the liner.

Made up a batch of mishmash. Put the chopped strand in early to get them good and soaked, then add the silica to stiff peaks. Then scrub virgin epoxy into the cavity demolishing the brush. Then use a paper rag towel to wipe any liquid out, don't want the mm to sag. Tuck the goop under the hatch, get it up in the top, you're going to have voids anyway. Leave it rough but not all the way out to the edge, push the fibers in or blade them away. It'll be hardening by now. Mix up plain gel and blade it smooth against the first fill to a close right angle to the hatch. I left it a bit under so that later I could come back with a color coat

Mark the holes, drill them oversize, NOT all the way thru, down to the trim under the deck. Fill with epoxy, there was soak in so the levels fell. Mildly scuff the top of the hardened base and wood and level and fill imperfections with gel. This was the foredeck. Replacement of the hatch in the coach roof was a bit different because of the radical curvature. Gotta go, later!!

Tony G

10-07-2003, 06:33 PM

Ebb,
Hey on James Baldwin's site one would get the impression that those one pound bottles are what they use!
I think I understand what you wrote about the technique-I'll try it. But it'll have to wait until next spring unless we get some really scarey weather here. Thanks again Ebb Tony G

ebb

10-07-2003, 08:09 PM

Capt Tony,
But here's the rub.
Where do you store the canisters?

Some guy used 3" or 4" PVC pipe to stack them in like artillery shells and
festooned short lengths on his stern rail with hose clamps. Looked just like real west marine propane bottles in their blue sunbrella suits. He recycled the empties. That was cool. Keeping the tube full kept them from rattling.

A cruiser might have twelve foot pieces of schedule 40 along the side decks lashed to the toerail. Maybe you could toss them at pirates, one pound propane bombs, by the time you got to micronesia they'ld be empty tho. Where out there do you recycle micro propane bottles, anyway?

How about stowing them in the mast? Nobody thought of That, I betcha! You'ld have to send the mate up the mast every time you had an empty to put in.

Bill

10-07-2003, 08:22 PM

Here are a couple of photos of Ebb's new rudder. Design by Alberg. Execution by Borregaard.

Bill

10-07-2003, 08:22 PM

And on the inside . . .

ebb

10-07-2003, 11:18 PM

Holy Moley, when was THAT?
All those zigzags didn't get translated to existing.

Top third over the bottom two thirds (in area.)
You can see a split in the doorskin, at a right angle to the keel.
It's that top third that comes apart.

The 1" shaft of the real one is split for about a foot in length. Instead of two flat surfaces, one side of the split is keyed about 1/4" X 1/4" proud. Like the key in the groove of the tiller head. Only it's milled in the shaft. The mating half has a groove to receive it. When you put them together it's round again. Has three 1/4" thru holes for 1/4" bolts.

Basically, the blade is halved more or less in conjunction with the split shaft. The strap core at the trailing edge has some machine screws holding it together.

The bottom part is normal welded strap and foam. The shaft is whole down here of course and the gudgeon will pass around the shaft here. near the top of this section. It's about half way up the keel. Naturally I had to fiddle here too. In this case it is not a strap but a split casting that hugs the shaft. It is to be bolted thru the keel in such a way that one side only will detach when unbolted. We'll see.

Generally, the 1/8' strap is welded to the sides of the shaft and ground back at an angle. If you swung the rudder in its theoretical 30 to 35 degrees very little of the strap enters the channel of the keel. But I'm talking thru my hat because 338 has a reworked keel/rudder interface. The heads of the nuts and bolts will swing into the channel space - barely. Also I knew I needed the option to wrap the shaft in glass. The channel has an 1 1/2" radius. Allowing 3/16" if needed around the 1" shaft for wrap.

ebb

10-08-2003, 07:38 AM

not worth a whole lot. But if you and I were having a few beers I would propose this.
I'ld scrap this clamshell idea because the glassing is so difficult. If I could have 'seen' into the problem with the models I made, I don't think I would have continued. Once I was welding the rudder I was commited.

A take apart rudder is a good brain exercise. Agreed? If NO use yer curser to exit NOW.

Here, instead of clamshell, let's just cut it across like a loaf of bread.

I would simply make a top half that socketted into the lower half. If you can imagine two straps (1/8" thick, 1 1/2" wide bar) coming off the sides of the shaft and meeting at the trailing edge, you have a long narrow triangle. Make this at the top of the bottom half. It is hollow in there.

Make the mating part of the top half out of the same material but smaller so that it fit snug inside the long narrow hollow. That's a lot of bearing surface. You could have the shaft fit into a self socket also. Might even be four sided, male and female. Maybe that's over kill. Maybe the shaft could merely be cut there, conceptually. Actually the rudder is two separate pieces.

You'ld have a removable fairing piece on the boat or the top of the rudder that would allow the two pieces to be separated, by lifting the top part up. The bottom half would be lifted out of the shoe, and the top would be slided out of the tube. Would the keying of the mating parts have to be any more than two inches deep? Don't think so, And the fiberglassing would be a breeze. I would run it by a structural engineer. Wish I'ld thought of this befor. Beelieve I'll have another pint with my friend here, anybody got a pencil?

But, do you even need the continuous shaft at all? Need the top for the tiller head, need the shaft thru the rudder tube, need the connection down at the shoe. What do you need the middle for? [need something in the middle for the gudgeon strap keeper]

The original rudder, you need the full/split shaft. But with epoxy and glass and welded flat bar the middle part of the shaft is useless extra weight! The original did not have a continuous shaft. An aperture in the rudder might present a minor design adjustment.

1" silicone rod goes for around $30 a foot. Manganese rod is available.

If I had the time...............:D :D

mrgnstrn

10-08-2003, 09:26 AM

so let me get this straight, your rudder is two halves (port and stbd) about the center line of the boat? what is the split shaft for? and how far up/down is it split?

by the way, i dig the shape.

Bill

10-08-2003, 10:03 AM

" . . .by the way, i dig the shape.

See Alberg's lines drawing in the manual. It's his!

ebb

10-08-2003, 10:10 AM

Capt. Mrgnstrn,
Check out post above beginning 'Holy Moley.' Can't make it any clearer without photos.

If the whole rudder had been in two halves, then I guess the whole shaft would have been also, so I went with what I thought was the shortest break in the shaft one could get away with. One side has the small upper half section and the shaft portion what goes up the tube. The other "half" is all the rest of the rudder, the major portion, all of it really except for the upper flap bit. OK? Not yet, huh? Me neither.

mrgnstrn

10-14-2003, 12:01 PM

OK, I understand where the upper and lower halves of the rudder are separated.
I don't fully understand the shafting, but maybe a few pictures would help.
you used PVC foam for the diagonals, but have you determined if the the whole rudder bouyant or not?

muchas gracias...

ebb

10-14-2003, 06:24 PM

foam is the filler in the clam shell, it isn't structural. There's very little of it. The rudder is rather narrow, right? The rudder is as bouyant as a piece of lead, or bronze. As I intimated above, this is not a good design, A good design is the original rudder. The 6 or 7 feet of 1" bronze shaft-rod at about 3# a foot doesn't make the original a floater, either. If the original rudder had been made totally out of wood, it would have been a floater. I have not heard that a lite foamfilled neutral rudder, like those that stand alone behind a fin, is desirable on the end of a keel. Would like to hear a discussion on this!!!

A rudder with two or three narrow triangles of flat bronze bar welded to the sides of the rod instead of allthread drilled thru the rod - the rest made up of divinycell, glass and epoxy would make a good substitute - come in at about the same weight - easier to maintain - ten times stronger - than the original. IMCO.

A two part socketing rudder like the one above could be designed at the cost of more weight. A full size working model out of wood would be made first.

Will make a valient attempt at finishing the present project. I advise everyone against it. Unless you make a compleat working model first! If the fiberglassing is successful there hopefully will be some photos.

ebb

10-14-2003, 07:13 PM

Have about 3 passes, so far, of 407 in the hollows that go from stem nearly to the stern on 338 Has anybody faired their A/C to a batten? Would really like to hear how you proceeded! I can't be the only crazy around here? Love that longboarding!:eek:

Tony G

10-15-2003, 06:07 AM

Sorry Ebb,
You're about eight months ahead of me in that department. Are you going to apply a dark topside paint? Is that why you're fairing the hull or is it just a personal obsession?:D I know 113 could use a little (read alot) of longboard action before painting next summer....so once again, I'm relying on you for technique and direction. Wish I could help but what I'm really saying, I guess, is keep up the good work. Just remember Ebb, I'm behind you all the way! Tony G

ebb

10-15-2003, 08:02 AM

Capt T! How goes the prog? All kinds of fairing questions, probably some important not being asked. Began getting cooler weekends - going up that ladder all this time - sighting the hollows on the way to another project - had to do it - facing another seasonal slog thru wind and rain.

Some guys on the net talk about osmotic gelcoat blister repair or hydrodynamic maximum lift foil section fairing, but there is no blow by blow on this hickey problem we have.

I got a six foot piece of 1/8" x 1 1/2" aluminum from the hardwear. It has a smooth sexy feel to it. I had tried the aerosol primer technique, putting on a mst of color and then long boarding. Was effective - and depressing to see the huge dark puddles left. I felt uncomfortable with the foreign substance on the gel coat. It would be useful later in the topsides game.

338 had some dramatic filling to do, some places the bottom of the swale under the batten pressed on the hull seemed 1/4" deep! The flexible bar is laid against the hull and encouraged into the mildest arc by bending the top toward the toerail. You can't bend the batten around the bilge without putting a kink in it. One time I read a guy explaining how he used monofiliment to locate the dips - you can get the whole side - but you can't fiddle, or fondle, that extra fullness that brings relief to a tired brain and a weary eye. Don't think it's only a male thing.

We had longboarded the topsides twice befor, so they were well scratched. A few hilltops had begun to show some green thru the white. And we were beginning to be well versed in the long diagonal strokes needed for any fairing.

Every 5 or 6 inches along the hull, holding the batten at the seam and below at the turn in the hull, made a vertical pencil line representing the supposed hollow you could see under the batten. Connecting the ends of these lines together outlined the hollows into 'puddles.' Prime the puddle with virgin epoxy. Wipe as much off again with terry rags befor gooping.

407 I hear is a patented mix, Tried to make up fairng compound myself from microballoons and silica. Even at a stiff 50 to 50 mix I still got serious sag. And it was a b@!*^%d to sand. So I snuck into WM and shelled out $2 an ounce for 407, mixed it into a stiff as I dared brownie dough, and spread it on. Two 15 oz (!) containers $62.

Wouldn't you know, West Systems 407 sags TOO. You hafta mix in 404, says a wag. But that's silica, says I (whatever the damn number is!) And I KNOW that stuff is a bear to sand and impossible to fair.
So, I draw a piece of sheet metal bent improvisationally into a very approximate arc across the goop. collect it on the spatula and reapply it to the skips, and keep drawing the metal across the puddle. But the more you work the stuff (you ARE pressing it against the hull, which is a good thing) the more you bring liquid to the surface.

And it sags continuously until it gets hard. Must be what the patent was for. But it IS easy to sand. It's shiney too. After sanding, the low areas are untouched and dark while the rest has 'greyed' out. Where you did a single swipe and it's thin it stays dull and no sag. Lesson # 1: do not put it on thick on vertical surfaces. We haven't much, and the sag you learn to control by not trying to fill all at once. The 407 under the 36 grit longboarding doesn't produce dust, it's a kind of grit. But it has a static stickyness to it, likes to cling.

Ahhh! but the topsides, even in this 36 grit stage are beginning to look S O O O O sweet!

One nagging question. Is that this relatively soft stuff is going on to a very hard surface. That's the question. Now, we will sand this stuff back as far as we can. Maybe even flatter than Alberg's rounded curves you can see on the lines drawings, maybe. Once it is where it is going to be it can be hardened up with plain epoxy with a little silica, maybe? That's a question. I'ld say that nearly half of the topside surface is chocolate colored at the present time. That's a question.

[After experimenting: 407 can be made up extra stiff, non sag, and pressed on the surface, but maybe not with the comfort of being sure of a bond that a wetter mix will have. Sanding 407 does produce dust - not airbourn dust. The tarmat under the boat is pink with the stuff.]

Tony G

10-15-2003, 08:25 PM

Ebb,
I used the El'cheapo fairing compound this time around when I filled in the forward ports. At first I thought I made a BIG mistake because it remained somewhat 'soft' for a day or two. While I was pouting about my blunder, kickin' cans and such the stuff turned solid. So I guess one has to sand it in that time frame when it's not too soft and not too hard. But I was happy as heck to toil a few extra hours with the homemade long board when I found it hard and realized I wouldn't have to resort to digging it out with solvents and a putty knife. I think it took four or five build-ups to get to a 'feel' that I was satisfied with. Yah, it has to go on thin(a big thanks to my dad for 'letting' me work in his bodyshop when I was in highschool-and to think I thought all of that other stuff was more important).
Those Gougeon brothers got most of my income a few years ago. Don't get the impression I don't like their product. I liked it alot, learned from it alot, had alot of fun with it too. Didn't know there was so much one could do with epoxy! Not just boats. But I think it was YOU in one of your previous post regarding 'poxies that convinced me to try one of the less famous labels. Glad I did-saved a bunch of money.
Like the hickey analogy, helps keep the eroticism up when she's all torn apart. That's next year for me now. Too cold here allready. I just cleaned her up really good for winter and will go into pattern making and alternative layout scheming. Oh yeah-account fattening too. Tony G
p.s. lookee here what you've done:eek:

ebb

10-16-2003, 07:46 AM

looks real nice. Whose stainless hatches are they? With that wide frame they look Belgian or something. From your top view, hard to tell, but they look closer to the deck than the Bomars I chose.

That foredeck hatch looks a size smaller than the one in front of the mast. What's your plan? Mine is where the anchor selection and a half mile of chain will rust.

Glad you found other epoxy sources, especially for the health reasons I once groused about. You know I don't have Absolute proof of the contaminated epoxy thing, but nobody has come forward on that to counter it, so the silence is my 'proof.'

I'm absolutely certain (Assume Is The Mother of All Foulups) that my mailorder supplier can provide an epoxy I can use in 338's builtin sweet water tanks. NOT West System.

And I'm taking a lot on faith and other worker's experiences using their 407 product. That's why I've been so explicit. Around the yard nobody has said anything negative - but the caveat is: Do not use 410 (the tan filler) under a dark painted hull. Not sure what happens, but I assume the paint lifts off.

So this really is a sucker punch to me. Why would you sell something to a bunch of amatuers (professionals aren't going to pay 7/11 prices for cute little boxes) that you can't use in conjunction with the goddam "System"??? You maybe Need the lighter stuff to finish off the fairing with big number grits. Right?

Even if I planned a white hull, would I use something that's going to maybe peel off a thousand hours flawless shine? If the hull gets too hot?

So I'm always going to sweat the 407! And I'm going to have to find a finishing off compound from somewhere else (since I can't trust my own formulations!) I remember Smith & Co used to have very light white two-part fairing compounds. Gotta check it out. :mad:

Tony G

10-16-2003, 08:43 AM

I forgot all about the water tank issues! That was something I was going to keep an eye on and check into. The mind is a terrible thin to waste. Those hatches are Bomar. One is 16.5 square and the other 13.25 square. Thought they might brighten the place up a bit and move some air through. They are 'seconds' we snagged from Pompanette LLC. Miniscule cast flaws on the spigot that won't show and won't cause problems sealing. Just reaping the benefits of a wasteful society(saved about a case of Glen Livet)or...er...so. But I've sworn to give up my vices for a better boat :( . Wish we had a yard near here to reap the benefit of experience. Ten minutes of conversation can reveal a whole lot more than ten minutes of reading! That sounds bad-strike that note Tony G

ebb

10-17-2003, 05:11 PM

Captain T, Up above here - dunknow what ElCheapo you used, but we do know it was epoxy. I dunknow what epoxy is cheap?? Some paint store type places have two-part epoxy filler in jars, some have a couple nougat bars you cut and mix. Smith&Co make a rot repair kit that has a white filler, none of it is cheap! But depending on the temperature some of these fillers can take a week to harden up.

I just happened to stop by Smith&Co, the plant, where they retail too.
They have a one gallon kit (1/2 and 1/2) for $125 (!) of their Fill-It, which they put in their rot repair kits. But the stuff was originally, and I think it still is, the only ready-made filler in the market, the microbaloons and cabosil and whatever are mixed in already into the two parts. One has some color in it so you know when it's blended. It has a 3 hr pot life at 70 degrees, 16 hrs at 28 degrees. Hey, you minisotans can work clear thru the winter!!! That is if you are filling.

That's the rub. I don't think this will tool any better tham 407. But IMCO it ends up about as hard as the topsides. IT DOES NOT SAG. Steve Smith has a product here, but I don't know if It has yet caught on. I bought a sample to try, $20! I've used the filler for years, just not in this application

I just don't know why certain products become fashionable, like westsystem, others take forever to catch on. I overheard this young athletic sailer, who I've never seen with as much as a scraper in his mit, trying to impress an attractive gal who Was scraping her bottom - he was saying that westsystem was the only good stuff and don't get the junk local stuff from TAP. You know, the stuff I've been working with succesfully for a couple years.

I'll mix up a wad of the Fill-It, try it in a low spot, and report back, Tony.
Not advertised as a fairing filler but will sand to a feather edge. They did make a 'glazing' filler once that had the consistency of coolwhip, I think it had too many lethal solvents in it. Remember it smelled Strong. Smith&Co have a Hazardous Non Waranty Can't Be Made Safe label on they products.

marymandara

10-17-2003, 08:45 PM

You know...
If you do not have a huge amount of fairing to do, and are only looking to fill a localized area, you can use Z-spar Splash Zone. Don't use it on anything you aren't going to paint, as the water drippage is a permanent splashzone-colored stain. Does not cake-frost with a spreader lika fairing compound...you sort of squidge it in with wet fingers. Boat Building with play-doh. It does have considerable durability, and it is very sculptable, which can come in handy. also shapes, files, sands very nicely.

Not exactly the stuff for getting rid of little ripples, but there are some times and places that it really is trick stuff.

Dave

ebb

10-17-2003, 09:57 PM

Capt Dave,
Looks like I'll have to put on a hat to sneek into westwhatever and take a look at this wonderous dough. Didn't get what you meant about the splash zone and the stain. So what is it, a sandable watermix fixall? It is the minor filling stuff that sands to dust but fills every imperfection - that I'm looking for.

Recall a large tube of one part 3M made years ago. It sanded absolutely S m o o o t h.

My problem with paint fillers is that I think they are too soft to put on the topsides. I mean the hull sides. It's a hard life out there

marymandara

10-18-2003, 02:08 AM

For SplashZone, you probably need to go to the fishboat chandelry...I don't think it's "yachty" enough for Westwhatever.<G>

SplashZone is a two-can, two-part, strongly foul smelling underwater cure epoxy product. Industrial Marine-Tex, as it were. Have to mix the two parts (black and bile green) together in roughly equal amounts as needed ---and you have to keep the lump wet! Hands, too! Turns more-or-less OD Green when you have it mixed right. Really good for sculpting and so on like you had to do around your cockpit drain pipes.

Since it has to be wet, it dribbles this OD green juice everywhere...that does a dandy job of permanently staining any porous surface...like paint or gelcoat. It is tough stuff. Not sure it's going to do what you just clarified, though...it IS really handy for a lot of other uses, you ought to give it a try. Thick, tough putty in whatever quantity you feel like mixing...pretty neat.

Being ever the low-tech, non-esoteric cheapskate that I am I have found pretty good success at hull fairing with epoxy resin and balloons(for sandability) with 1/4" milled glass fiber added for strength...to my experience, it sands a lot better than if you put silica in it, and I haven't had any crack or fall off anything I've put it on over the course of quite a few jobs and about a 15 year span. I did it out of frustration once because the silica-filled stuff...well, you know...I was ending up with silica-filled humps surrounded by low spots. I really like to use a DA for that kind of work anymore if there is air to be had, though...cuts faster than an electric RO and has a lot more control...and I am a big fan (itchiness aside) of mill fiber for "structural" fillers, mainly because it's cheap and tough. While I'm sure there is a better mousetrap made, I tend to go with the more-or-less "old school" goods an awful lot as long as I know they do the job adequately...saves a lot of $$$. I'm preaching to the choir...I better just shut up and let ya sing!<G>

Dave

Tony G

10-18-2003, 05:22 AM

Both of you two have mentioned adding chopped glass fibers(Ebb) and milled glass fibers(Dave) to the mix. Is this a prepackaged product or home made? I did purchase some milled glass fiber from a supplier. It is HEAVY, dense, grainy, and causes lots of sagging. It makes a good dense plug but it is useless on anything but a horizontal surface. Most curious, Tony G

ebb

10-18-2003, 07:12 AM

Thanks Capt Dave,
points well taken, that splashzone sounds fasinatin! Like something to use on iron plate fishing boats and ferrocement. Smith&Co's Fill-It is really aimed at ruogh service too. Smiths's first love, if it can be put like this, was for ferrocement, when they were hot, he came up with CPES (clear penetrating epoxy) as a sealer. Then the woodworkers and home repair guys discovered it. (But never came up with real finesse products like for finishing off the topsides IMCO)

I got epoxy back in the days befor it was for 'public sale' - getting it in containers with codes for labels - and played around with it like it was playdough - and became badly sensitized to it where it attacked the fingers around the nails. Didn't heal for weeks. Don't know that I would stick my fingers in that evil sounding stuff you talk about!!!

I swear latex gloves you get at the plastics supply or hardwear are 2nds or thirds or rejects from the medical suppliers. Gloves will have holes in them or pull apart when pulling them on. They're for dexterity not dipping!

I get milled glass in plastic jars from the local plastics fabrication store. It's heavy glass dust. And when I added it to the mix it near tore itself off the vertical surface! Add that stuff and you loose sandability, it's for plastic rock. I don't use it much. Jars of 'chopped strand' I get are 1/4". I've heard it comes shorter or longer. That and silica is the mish-mash I make up. Use it structurally. It's hairy. If a surface is exposed and need it smooth I press mylar or visqueen against it. I think (I hope!) it is pretty strong stuff! I believe I would use this for molded in backup pads for fittings. I built up the inside of the stem with it, especially around the cutwater, Crazy, huh?

ebb

10-20-2003, 05:41 PM

But since this fairing thing has happened here in this far off corner of this site...
I'll just add this:
407 after 3 weeks gets mighty hard. I am using a high grade marine 100% solids low vis laminating epoxy, it is relatively easy to knock down compared to the gelcoat. So you can sand smooth curves. You could get to the high-build primer stage with this, since it does feather, but it's hard to control.
Interlux makes a two part finishing off epoxy called VC that I will locate.
WM has Awlgrip fairing epoxy that can be used exsystem I believe.

I got page 144 out of the Manual blown up again. This time, the stations, the bread slices. When it's bigger you can site the lines or lay a straight edge against them.
There are NO straight lines in the hull except the flats in the keel, and they are curved fore and aft.

The bow was/is very hollow. The part of the bow forward of the little bulkhead. A large triangular area is five fillings by now. The hull at the bulkhead around this area is convex and pretty fair. Aft of the imprint hollows probably caused by the stringer begin. They are fairly fair after three full passes. The bow is hollow, on the port side especially, well under the waterline. It is almost as if the natural hollow of the keel and rise of the bilge extended right up to the stem fitting!

It looks like the only true convex lines on the topsides are those where there are bulkheads inside.:(

ebb

10-20-2003, 07:05 PM

Page 144. Floating above the grid line of Station #5 are a couple of very interesting doodles. One might show some wood trim that is obviously too small, almost flimsey. Actually, it's funny.

The other illustrates an out-turned flange in the hull/deck with some kind of split tube material covering the join. (TOP OF HULL is printed under the drawing.)

Howboutthat!

Tony G

10-21-2003, 05:01 AM

Hey, I was just there last week. Wonder what happened to door number three-the one that got picked for the Ariel/Commander? I may be wrong here but one of those profiles looks identicle to the Ensign h/d joint and the other one looks suspect to many Bristol pictures I've seen. Having never actually touched a B-27...how about a CD D-25?

Tony G

11-23-2003, 10:19 AM

Well Ebb, it's cold and snowing outside. Yuk. Boatwise it's time to turn to paper and thought for some of us. Okay. What's happening with 338? Is the cabin sole out yet and the new tankage in? How about the MSD. Eeewee. Airhead-Lavac-Willcox-Crittendon? Don't think we've nailed you down on that one yet.

ebb

11-23-2003, 07:17 PM

Capt Tonio,
When the weather changed, surprised and embarrassed once more at how blinding fast the seasons pass on by, had this Urge, man - you have no idea - to work on the topsides, befor the bloddy tent got blown apart again.

Eyeball to gelcoat, I've covered 1/2 the sides in microsphere brownie mix. Done the batten thing, made the vertical pencil lines, traced the puddles therein to fill. Measured and mixed. Filled and waited, longboarded endlessly and did it again.

Coming close to something like fair curves. Have a 3 foot board now made from closet pole, 1/4" lexan, carpet tape and a great anti-static 36 grit 3" wide sanding belt. Awesome stuff.

Missed this weekend in the cycle because the chocolate didn't bake in the 30 - 50 degree temp. Put it on late and it didn't set in the freezing overnight. Got up to 60 today and it attempted to harden, but didn't.

The topsides is a major project. The whole boat between the imprinted bulkheads fore and aft, and the imprinted stringers up to the rail has to be faired. My fairing is essentially a valiant attempt to plump the sides out to only vaguely what the Master's lines are in the Manual. When I laid the fairing batten horizontally on the hull, a new set of hollows showed up. While either side of the boat have not equal unfairness, both had a double dipper, requiring extra fill, just forward of the compression bulkhead in that difficult area where the flare of the bow is changing into the vertical sides at mid section. It is hard to read the transition with the eye, so much is happening.

Remember Geoff had that weird dip in Uhuru's hind quarter? No dip in 338's - but her tight little curved port quarter had a hollow 1/4" deep, while the starboard side is pretty much ok.

Airhead, I haven't persued. It would be really cool to have a working composting toilet aboard. They did say that they were working on designing a shorter model. And eventually 338 will have one. Tho it's hard not to be persuaded by Jim Baldwin's enthusiasm for the Lavac in his Triton. We are a flush it down the drain society, at all levels, I'm glad we have the humble portopotti as an alternative.

As you know I've been trying to find a contrasting color and more cremey epoxy paste to continue with the next step, something to fill scratches etc. WasteMarine had SplashZone and some one parts - nope. I wanted to check out Svensons again. So, went way the hell over to Alameda. What a great place the store is, what a relief! Didn't smell of plastic fenders, wasn't a chandlery morphing into a OSH.
They had Interfil by Interlux in a 1/2gal kit for $60. Read the cans, looked like it's ok. Take to boat, cut the cans apart, read inclosed miniature pamphlet. Way at the end, on the last page, it says:
Must be washed with water after each use.

(Expletive) (Delete) If Interfux thinks I'm ever using a single product of theirs on 338 they're crazy. I feel Insulted. What kind of jerks market a filler that has to be washed befor you put the next layer on - and even befor you sand it??? You guys really put up with disrespect like this? You and I know they could make the better product

and still overprice it.

Mike Goodwin

11-25-2003, 01:30 PM

Ebb,
Another product like that, that needs washing , is called WEST system. You must remove the blush or problems later down the road will appear.

ebb

11-25-2003, 07:44 PM

Yeah,
West System is up front about it. Sort of.
What got me was that Interpox had it sealed between two cans and inside a small print pamphlet. like it was dirty.
W h a t ?
Like they were embarrassed or something? Wouldn't it be part of the general directions ON the can? Because They know that some of us know that they are using additives like nonyl phenol which is a cheap carcinogenic extender to adulterate their product.

Now, Aye don't know what Intersucs has in this 2 part paste. I have not checked out the MSDS. I'm assuming tho that like System 3 MAS RAKA and West they no longer list nonyl phenol as a hazardous material on their MSDS. Wouldn't you like to know who let That happen?

It is a non volitile carcinogenic additive that increases volume and decreases epoxy's good points like strength, and chemical, temperature and water resistence. While there are epoxies with the stuff that don't blush, all the rest of the adulerated have nonyl phenol at least partially to blame for blushing.

Blush is a greasy film that you cannot trust to another layer without agressive scrubbing. Why trust it after the scrubbing? You got a degree in goddam scrubbing? The window for applying overcoats without the cleaning is very small as it can be done only when it is setting but not cured. This represents a huge amount of time and labor to ready the surface for recoat. In the actual 3D real 26' Ariel boat world why use it? My cod, if I had to scrub down the topsides we are fairing befor each layer I'd truly be nuts be now. How can anybody conceive of a filler that you had to do this to? Corporate sleeze fueled by greed. Maybe worse.

If Interbucs (and the rest of the crew) really cared about your needs they would not sell you junked up epoxies. A boat, or anything your life depends on, requires the best. If these jerks are not selling you the best, or hiding from you the questionable quality of their product, DO NOT TRUST THEM.

For a few bucks more they could do it right, and sell to you a superior product. And EARN your trust.

The head Intercluck gave himself a 9 billion dollar bonus this year fror being so clever in cheapening his product. This is probably a lie. Probably only 8.

Anybody else want the soapbox? ;)

Mike Goodwin

11-26-2003, 03:12 AM

Some how Ebb, I get the feeling you don't support the current administration's policy " don't let 'em ask, and we won't tell 'em what's in it .
If it's good for business, especially my friends in Texas, then its good for me , er ah the world. "

marymandara

11-26-2003, 01:59 PM

Personally I have pretty much had it with buying Marine grade products in general, especially where paint and epoxy are concerned...largely thanks to Ebb's advice pertaining to www.epoxyproducts.com . I've also been fortunate enough to cultivate a good working relationship with a local commercial-only vendor who sell to boatbuilding firms which has allowed me to get pretty much anything in industrial, marine or aircraft resin and core products at a super super deal.

When I use up the last of my last 5-gallon pail of S-3, I'm gonna have a party since it means I don't have to have 2 sets of hardeners...just Jeffco aircraft resin, barrier coats, etc. etc. etc., and ONE set of hardener products does all of the resins. Not blushy. Not stinky. Real consistent.

I love you, Ebb...
Dave

ebb

11-26-2003, 02:59 PM

...blush

marymandara

11-26-2003, 03:03 PM

Quit huffing the fool fumes, Ebb!!
We were just talkin' 'bout no-blush stuff here!
Man!:D

ebb

11-26-2003, 03:13 PM

Luv you too, Dave!

ebb

02-04-2004, 08:03 AM

Tony, Dave, Bill, et al! Must be forgiven for not responding, Have just seen a list for the first time of yer unanswered posts by inadvertently pushing one of those bars I can hardly read at the top of the page here. Ebb is Not computer savvy and will never figure out all the features one can use on this site. Sorry.

I've been on the shoals for a couple of months - the cold weather not helping either - with the epoxy.

The original forehatch has the framework in for the new Bomar. It had to be completely sawn out. The interior mahogany trim against the curvey roof went in pretty good, but not varnished yet. The exterior needs to be completed. I haven't enuf other stuff done for the Boss to record.

Have begun to work on the OB well again. The cockpit now is open all the way to the transom. Cut sides of the old vertical access hatch back to the cockpit well. The built in tanks continue the eye to the transom. Whether the hatch will be extended forward to cover the OB I don't know yet. But convinced self that the hatch should be in three pieces with the center piece, being the width of the cockpit well only, remade so as to cover the OB. You may remember the OB clamp board is moved forward about 4"". The two much smaller side pieces can remain shut most of the time. Conceivably there will be standing room on the quarters of the stern with the OB hatch open. How about that?

Like it, because I think only Professor Alberg had these giant rear hatch covers (to be able to lay in the old kicker) and this preserves the look.

The side windows are being Baldwined. Got the 3/8s Lexan. And have some ideas to share soon on how to install stiff 3/8s plastic in 1/2" wide channels that are curved.

:eek:

mrgnstrn

02-17-2004, 08:08 PM

ebb- I don't think I ever saw your final disposition of your rudder. how did it come out in the end? what would you change about your current design? somewhere in here you said that you wouldn't have done it that way if you knew what you know now. do you still think that? what would you suggest?

ebb

02-19-2004, 05:23 PM

km.
I don't think I saw the disposition of that rudder either!

But it's coming soon.
It's all fine and dandy to experiment. I'm not really 100% behind this clamshell rudder - which won't make any sense, I know, until it's together, so that photos can be taken, and comments made. I did make a full size model in wood but didn't carry it forward into the glassing stage where problems have developed. [and there have been dozens of other projects on the boat to keep the plate-spinner busy]

Did have another idea to spite myself which I now think is more viable. I think it can be engineered much more simply. You have a rudder that is simply cut in half across the blade with one piece socketting into the other. Each piece is made complete and independent of the other. One would slip into the other and simply fastened. I leave the design work to you, professor! Probably not that simple!

If I did not have a full time commitment, I'ld love to do it, really! See if there is any easy way to remove and replace these keel hung rudders without a third party.

Perhaps only a cruiser is interested in a maintainable rudder. Damage to a rudder that can not be removed for repair wherever you are IMCO is dangerous. Not hard to imagine an intense scenario where the hole you have to dig to slip the original rudder out the tube just keeps filling as you dig.

The clamshell rudder (soon to be photoed) uses too many small fastenings (5 bolts) to keep it secure. I'm not happy with small fastenings under water. Glad you're interested! :D

marymandara

02-20-2004, 03:12 AM

FWIW, I had originally worked out a design in a foam-cored rudder mainly for ease of workability and for fear of having so much bronze in the water to get eaten. Two things stopped that, which was finding out how bad an idea the carbon fiber near/touching bronze would be and also finding about the effect of buoyancy and weight vs. what we percieve as part of the weather helm issue, i.e. a heavy rudder as the boat heels.

New plan is shockingly like sage Ebbster's bronze sheet idea, welded up with bronze sheet stringers inside to hold the shape and improve the tie-in to the shaft, then glassed and sheathed in kevlar and faired. This is actually much simpler than the previous plan and even simpler than constructing of plywood...the only difficult part is finding a reliable welder who is familiar with TIG welding on bronze! The form of the thing is an easy one, just a 2:1 taper...NACA foils do not belong on this type of rudder and are apparently counterproductive.

The rudder is to be counterweighted internally as well in order to try for the most neutral average helm feel possible.

I think...at long last...we are finally ready to build the pair of them.
One mod is the one-piece rudder shaft (almost 7' long!), and the Ariel type rudder shoe and support strap (straps, in my case, we're using two in the same locations as the recesses lie for the gudgeons). Here's hoping!

Dave

ebb

02-20-2004, 09:04 AM

Good layups on your rudders, Dave.

I was appalled at the weight of the clam shell! If I didn't have so much time and money into it I would do a second one. After 338 is sailing we shall be very critical. Is it not obvious:

The rudder knows only that it sits in the shoe 3/4" and is 3/4" diameter there. The rudder knows that halfway up the keel the shaft is, let's say, half round where the gudgeon strap is located. It knows it is 1" D, with a key way, at the tiller head.

Everywhere else in its 7 feet the rudder can be anything it wants. As long as it stays within the design parameters. Some great modern materials and methods open up some exciting possibilities.

There are a number of successful rudder rebuilds. remakes, remodels, refits recorded here. To be better than the simple and direct original the innovative rudder has to be something else. Well. different, anyway. The take apart idea keeps the synapses sinning and snapping in the internal cafe at the edge of the univers.

Season's changing, it's epoxy time again.

mrgnstrn

03-17-2004, 07:48 AM

Ebb: Where did you get that hinged mast step?

ebb

03-17-2004, 02:08 PM

www.sfsailing.com/ballengerspars/

Ballenger Spar Systems
215 Walker St
Watsonville CA95076

831-763-1196

email
buzzballenger@worldnet.att.net

Was $200 - off the shelf.

And I may have mistakenly described this s.s. hinge step as having the upturned holed part of the hinge on the bottom, when, ofcourse, the blocks attached to the plate move with the mast when lowered or raised. The plate with the upturned sides is on the top. The plates are 1/4". The pin is 1/2"!!!

ebb

04-07-2004, 08:12 AM

First, the good news,
The frames and ports came back from the powder coaters so beautiful it's hard to believe. They were baked with a standard bronze polyester that looks really fine to me. It's a luxurious softness that identifies a pc The LabMetal repairs aren't noticable. and all the pieces of the opening ports fit back together, except in one case. Fixable, a little sanding... Considerable hole in wallet.

The bad news,
My clam shell rudder can not be used. Got to the point with it filled with pvc foam and extended to its final dimensions, but not glassed, where the planes of the blade could be eyeballed real good in relation to the shaft. Walked away. Came back. Number of times..... Twisted too far out and not fixable by grinding it to square. Too late for tweeking the bronze. It had been damaged and bent in a storm, where the tent was torn apart, and one of the pipes supporting the tent had swung around under the hull and bashed it. (Was there a message there?) Thought we had it straightened!

Yesterday, had a brief unsuccessful conference with the luxury welder about a simplified version of a take-apart, for which I had a rudimentary model. I may now go with a regular single piece all-american constellation style - just to have a rudder. I'll make up two models. In respect to 'engineering:' the constellation probably has more forces on the blade/shaft connections than the more common rounded ear-shaped rudder. Just think, you are turning the whole boat against all that resistance with that bitty blade that has equal forces aqainst it. Still looking at welding pieces to an Everdur (655) shaft, foam filling and skinning with glass. Pretty bummed out, but I ended up not really liking the damned thing anyway. Much because it didn't pass the KISS test.

Back to the drawing board, and doorskin models, like me and 338 have all the time in the world..........

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:07 PM

Here are photos of Ebb's newly powder coated window frames.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:08 PM

And the nice job he did filling the gap between the outer bulkhead the the cabin liner.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:11 PM

It’s been awhile, but we have more Ebb Photos to share. Ebb's been pretty busy, but with things that do not show that much. For instance, he’s managed to bring the boat's hull into compliance with Alberg's lines drawing. No more low or flat areas, but the true (and beautiful) hull shape as planned.

Another of Ebb's time consuming projects has been modifying the outboard motor well and lazarette to accommodate an 8-hp Yamaha 4-cycle engine. The redesign is more than impressive, it's phenomenal. Not only will the engine tilt up out of the water to it's fullest extent, but it will swivel to its maximum from side to side in the redesigned well. The engineering and planning for this project is on the scale of a massive Department of Defense project! Only photos can describe it.

We will begin with the hull fairing:

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:15 PM

The next series of photos will attempt to describe the outboard motor well modifications. When the photo shoot date was established, Ebb took some vacation time to clean up and paint the well so it would photo better ;)

Let's start with a vew from the stern with the engine in the run position.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:16 PM

Now we show the up position. In this photo we see Ebb's new plug for the well opening. (The engine has electric tilt, but it was not working so a rope was used to hoist the shaft.)

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:48 PM

From above. Note the two fuel tanks on each side.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:50 PM

The tolerances are very close between the engine mounting bracket and the well opening.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:51 PM

Here is a hand held view of the custom plug.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:52 PM

And, another view of the plug - hand held.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:53 PM

Note the new supports in the modified lazarette:

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:55 PM

Ops, another view of the plug in place from above.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:56 PM

New bulkhead in the bilge.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:58 PM

Here's a f/u on some earlier photos of the new forward hatches. #338 now has two (2). :eek:

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:58 PM

The really cool part is the view of the hatches from below showing the custom trim.

Bill

07-22-2004, 08:59 PM

And the other one . . .

Bill

07-22-2004, 09:04 PM

It's not possible for me to remember everything Ebb said about these projects. In fact, I probably did not understand what he was talking about :confused:

I do know that he's found a very inexpensive epoxy product from a reputable mfg. $50/gal. If interested, send him an E-mail. (Go to Ebb's profile and click on "send Ebb an E-mail.") If you know the password, I'm sure he will share. :D

ebb

07-23-2004, 08:41 AM

Gentlemen,
the epoxy product is a two-part high-build sanding primer at $45 a gallon from an independant chandlery. Everybody uses it in the yard here, the DIYers after they talk with the pros - who can't afford failures. It is supplied in half filled gallon containers, as a one to one mix. Each part requires stirring befor mixing. Because of the half empty cans it is convenient to mix and pour into the premeasured mixing container.

A high build sanding primer does not have to be part of a LPU system like Awlgrip or Sterling. You can put it on, prep at your 'leisure', and then put on the requisite regular system primer when you're going to paint within the time constrictions of the film.

I know Dave and Mike have worked with this stuff. The chandlery stocks it for the workers. In fact the c. has a truck that makes daily deliveries all over the Bay area to marinas and job sites. This kind of personal service the Royal Rip Off Chain can't duplicate. The paint company what makes it does not seem to promote the product in any way, maybe to avoid stepping on the toes of USPaint and Sterling etc. who flog it at twice the price. The white stuff you see in the OB well pics of Billl's is this primer. It also comes in "champagne" in case you need a color to sand down to. Like most epoxys it gets harder over time. I've probably passed the easy sanding window in the well. Oh, well! email and I'll give up the product name and number.

This way I hope I am honoring the 'underground' informational nature of this primer. I would hope that you guys do the same, leaving it word of mouth, and not broadcasting it here on the net. It probably is just me inventing the secret status of this paint. I can here Dave saying, "Hell, man, EVERYBODY knows this stuff, bin using it myself for twennyfive years or so! Primed a dulcimer once with it!"

I've seen this used for topsides only. I think it is best sprayed on. (haven't done it myself, yet) because it goes on very even and smooth that way. Afterall, the hi-build is put on to fill pin holes and minor imperfections in all that hard work of fairing. My brush marks in the ob well are there now exactly as I put them on wet.
If you need a high build hull primer as a barrier coat, people around here use Interbucks 2000.

A yard is full of toxins. The high end LPU gloss man here does not prewash hulls with solvents, as specified by most systems specs I've seen, uses only soap (detergent like for dishes) and water.

Tony G

07-23-2004, 08:53 PM

Ebb! She looks fantastic. The work is nothing short phenomenal, and that's what we really expect from you now. The outboard well looks smooooth and fine. I'd be happy to clean grunge there. Yeah, the trim on the hatches is the only way to do it. Right and right on. It really is a pleasure to watch the refit of 338.
I'm still waiting for you to show up in good ol' Minnesota:p

ebb

07-24-2004, 07:17 AM

Thanks, Tony!
And howz the Dream Weaver coming along? I seem to rip-van-winkle these days waking up to old news: you have to be brewing hot cocoa for the crew in the new galley by now on those frosty summer mornings up at the Lake. Right?:cool:

commanderpete

07-26-2004, 05:55 AM

Genius

...

ebb

07-26-2004, 08:03 AM

geewillikers C'pete!
an autographed pic of Al hisself at the helm - fabulous!

This reminds me of an incident which occured sometime in yhe early '70's. Must have gone up to the University for a lecture of Bucky Fuller's when I was living in Berkeley. Sat up close, but my distinct impression was that I was sitting in the back row of the auditorium - I don't think I got anything he synergized. But I was inspired.

I had made a balsa dish using geodesic triangles for 'framing' and added three triangular section pontoons to the convex side of the model and of course a dowel mast and bedsheet sails. Took it down to the pond by the freeway to give it a test. It was probably 18" round (ie a scale model of a 36 footer) and elongated by the pontoons, It immediately got blown flat. Introduced a couple of bricks that just happened to be right there by the shore into the middle (I think I had some kind of deck on it, you know, that held the mast up and all and a rudder.) With cargo in the hold it took off like a bat out of hell across the water to the opposite shore in about 5 seconds.

I was elated and somehow wrote a letter to the great man. Who very kindly wrote back (can't imagine the volumn of mail he ordinaryly must have received!) including a picture of his sailboat. I've misfilled it, but remember it was one of those headlong international racers of the time, or maybe earlier, made of wood with enormous sails. That was the extent of my involvement with a homegrown genius. Nothing ever came of the geodesic sailboat. Gave it to a kid. Bucky seemed more interested in his day sailer, and I went on to mess around with a wooden plumb-bowed gaff rig retro design from the turn of the century. Almost set fire to the boat learning about polyester. 10 beers befor I retell That story.

ebb

07-29-2004, 04:12 PM

I realize that only the most curious will want to cross ref back to the photos, but here goes:

1st photo -
OB in operating position. The width of the well is the exact turning radius of the shaft, plus a little extra aft clearamce for removing the motor from the lazarette.

2nd -
Shows the clamp of the Yamaha 8/4 with the power tilt arm as it is situated behind the dam which provides the form for the plug. The plug can be used only when the motor is up. And when the motor is removed. No plug is in this view.

3rd -
The motor is up, the plug is in place. This cockpit view shows that the plug has an integral lid that conforms to the curve of the dam, fits flat to the ledge that defines the shape of the opening and fits snug in the apparent square of this mid part of the well.

4th -
Shows the clamping board and the OB clamp behind the curve of the opening. There will be a drain or two in this dammed up area, but needs a oneway scupper not found yet.
The initial curve between the clamp and the shaft was determined with paper pattern, then translated into frp about 1/8' thick over a little form.
The actual hole shape with its sloping sides was a little more dicey. Was made using special bending ply that required happy luck with the fitting and some release tape inside and the usual build up with mat and juice. Even tho it gets thin in the middle, it is very strong.

5 & 6 -
The shield shape of the plug is the outside surface of the boat. It was made using the hole formed above as the mold, with a piece of aquaply covered with mat added later in the process as the lid. The shape again was molded with xmat and filled with pieces of pvc foam.

( Discovered that the lovely crease that extends up to the transom from the top of the rudder (absent in the OB Ariel) could found by epoxying on two carefully shaped pieces of homemade 1/8" frp sheet that met in the middle where the crease was supposed to be. It closed the whole bottom including the remains of the original well. Not having seen this crease except on a Triton where it is a smidgeon over emphasized, I pushed the temporary 'plates' with 1 X 2s to the ground until it looked curvey and let it set. I filled in the plug from the top and got it mostly flat with the edges of the hole. To release the mold I grinded away the 'plates' underneath untill I saw the edge of the release tape, Since I cheated and used only double=sided carpet tape with the peeler left on, two layers, it was so tight I had to use a carjack to push it up into the well. All the temporary sheet ended up ground off. except maybe a little that remained as the bottom of the plug. The bottom was filled and longboarded with the plug in place.)

Photo 7 -
This is the starboard web frame that forms the side of the well and ties the aft bit of the deck into the lazarette. Because of the high cut in the transom for the tilting saildrive the split backstay plates will be mounted at the ends of the toerail on the transom.
You are also looking at the corner of the starboard gas tank which for the most part uses what used to be the old gas can deck and foam. I'm waiting to be castigated for this installation. But the exposed parts of the tanks are 5/16s to 3/8" thick.

This ends the series. I hope to convince Bill to herein post a fisheye view of the plug in place using a snap shot of mine. Hope this is useful.:D

iceman

08-01-2004, 01:38 PM

JUST GOT BACK FROM ANOTHER FINE SAIL ON LAKE CHAMPLAIN
AND JUST LOOKED AT THIS THREAD IN ITS ENTIRETY

I AM IN AWE OF EBBS WORK

I AM REAL GLAD I DONT HAVE TO DO THIS AMOUNT OF WORK YET

DOES EBB HAVE A REGULAR JOB??

AND WHEN IS THE LAUNCH DATE???

IF IM EVER IN CALIFORNIA I GOTT SEE HIS BOAT

ICEMAN

ebb

08-02-2004, 08:08 AM

ebb will be found one day aboard his little ship preserved in what experts will believe to be an organic compound called epoxy. The forensictechs will be astounded to discover his Nicholson 49 in its bucket scabbard, and evidence of imported water and delifude in his colon, which proves he had contact with commercial food giants. Studies will show his veins contained a liquid composed of grains and herbs believed to be called 'beveridge.'
Lung tissue will reveal copper particles and silicon fibers and a hundred other exotic compounds. Scientists will assume the specimin was forced to spend his life climbing in and out of what they believe is a prime example of "restoration" for which they will find no known purpose.

Gene, Bill, thanks for a soul stirring day on the Bay!:D

Tony G

08-02-2004, 07:05 PM

Ebb!
B-day?...You?...Cheers!

Bill

08-02-2004, 07:09 PM

Due to overwhelming demand, :) we are presenting the next series of photos to show how Ebb created the OB Well Plug.

Step #1, As described elsewhere, two temporary frp sheets were glued to the bottom of the hole delineating the crease that runs between the rudder and the transom. Then the plug shape was molded in with 2 layers of xmat on the sides, more on the bottom to allow for possible fairing. White strips are carpet tape with peeler left on. Plug was glued to the temporary sheets which were then ground off.

Bill

08-02-2004, 07:10 PM

Step #2, shows the plug being filled with pvc foam and gel.

Bill

08-02-2004, 07:11 PM

Step #3 Shows the plug during fairing before getting the white sanding primer the inside received.

epiphany

01-31-2005, 08:56 AM

What progress since 08 (or is that 02) of '04, ebb? (Apparently, I am date-ually challenged on this Forum... or I'd be heading south onboard Scirocco about now, right, Bill? :o :D) I'm especially interested in what has been going on with your interior. #370 will need strongback replacement (as part of a General Replacement of Everything), and I've been considering doing similar to what you've done. If your Non-Bulkheaded Interior is patented and considered Intellectual Property, maybe I'll put a compression post in instead of the massive strongback you created. ;)

I guess that there will be a new Gallery thread of the work on #370 starting soon - I'm about to go spread sail all over the lawn for perusal and note-taking. Have a compass and some sheet blocks here to clean up. Pitiful little projects when compared to the volumes of work being done North and West of here, but all that I have on hand for the next 6 weeks until The Adventure Begins...

Kurt

ebb

01-31-2005, 04:11 PM

Kurt: ah - h h - h e m:
Don't have no stinkon pattent. EVERYTHING I have said or done has been to generate discussion first and to record what has been done right or wrongly to Ariel 338. I yam what I yam, not expert, just sharing for the good of the order, thusly. And very fortunate to be part of this forum.

----------------------------------------------------------

With a pipe compression post I hear you get a great handhold to swing around into the v-berth. It would be a great challenge to be rid of the compression bulkhead (almost) entirely. There'ld be some elegant engineering to do to neutralize the forces of the upper shrouds and mast. But IF that was satisfied maybe an enclosable head could be snuck in there. The framing of the head providing some more immobilizing support under the mast as well. Might consider and plan the 'off center' bulkheading as changed location compression bulkhead. Every piece of furniture you buildin (a shelf, eg) is structural. And you could play with the head enclosure maybe by building it out at right angles to the hull at least in the v-berth side, rather than off the station lines of the architect's drawing - make for more friendly looking space in the remaining berth. Go for it. :D

Bill

01-31-2005, 04:16 PM

We just finished a photo shoot and update meeting at Ebb's quality yacht barn in beautiful San Rafael, CA. Temp has soared into the low 60's just to accommodate us :)

Photos with some written details will follow soon. Editing is next . . . :(

Bill

02-01-2005, 09:00 AM

Here's a photo of Ebb's engineering table where the enhancements for 338 are created :D

Bill

02-01-2005, 09:05 AM

A copper bottom . . really. Epoxy loaded with powdered copper and then "painted" onto the bottom of the boat. Ebb has agreed to supply the formula upon request. ;)

Bill

02-01-2005, 09:08 AM

Here's a view of the liner where it meets the top of the main companionway.

Bill

02-01-2005, 09:15 AM

Here is the mockup for the new main hatch slide. The rails shown are mockups and the final location will be placed closer to the hatch. One reason for the new rails is Ebb's search for more headroom . . :)

Bill

02-01-2005, 09:18 AM

Gotta get back to the design center (see above) and work on editing the rest of the photos . . . :D

ebb

02-01-2005, 09:33 AM

Proposed hatch rail/slides go full length to the break and will also have the removable seahood mounted on them. The design will have a water relief channel on the inside running along where the original molding rises.Since these here are wood forms intended to make female molds into which the final frp pieces will be laminated, the resulting pieces will be easy to trim lower if necessary. They look rather tall, I like the ones you see on the Cape Dory 25.

Really like the original curved hatch. But am thinking of a light-emitting, flat lexan slider riding on teflon on the lower rabbet with the traditional metal keeper on top. {A flat surface for a map or a sandwich and salad. Just a flat surface!!] If I curved the hatch I would gain headroom, but flat it's only about an inch gained! The real purpose is to protect the slider from being striped off by a comber, assuming the rails can take it.

mbd

02-01-2005, 10:05 AM

A copper bottom . . really. Epoxy loaded with powdered copper and then "painted" onto the bottom of the boat. Ebb has agreed to supply the formula upon request. ;)

Cool! Is this an alternative to alblative bottom paint - a more "permanent" solution? Bottom painting sucks.

ebb

02-01-2005, 12:10 PM

All I know is hearsay. It works in cooler waters, better the further north you are. No good in the tropics. Said to keep barnacles off in SFBay, but weed will form. Depends if the basin you're in flushes well. too. Brand name Copperpoxy (www.copperpoxy.com), said to have 60% copper powder in a two-part epoxy putty like material. It is rediculously expensive ($300 gal, no kidding). Make your own with 'Low Vis' epoxy and copper powder ($14 a #) at 1/4 to 1/3 the price from epoxyproducts.com. The site and the owner are user friendly and flog highend and safer material. The website is worth your time and a lot of fun.

I put three coats of potable water white epoxy on my mottled bottom, if later we get down to pure white, that's the 'gelcoat'. I thought it a great product and used it also in the belly tank under the cabinsole. A 100% solids material.

Now when it came to the 5 coats (I think) of made copper/epoxy I started with less powder and added more each time, up to 35% I believe. (Well the first coat was too thick and sticky and tore the rollers apart depositing sponge bits over the entire surface, easy to sand off but not recommended.) Low Vis goes off quicker than what I'm used to, but it worked out fine doing one side at a time. The effect it had is quite astonishing, after the second coat it was like a dog fight for the crowd it gathered in the marina. Shows how bored people can get!

Adding the copper makes the epoxy thicker, I just worked with what I liked to roll on without tipping and fast, FAST. The powder and the epoxy are the same weight, so there is no separation or settling out after mixing. After eight coats ( just kept going till the powder ran out, saved enuf for the rudder and those bare spots under the keel when the blocks were moved.), I don't think it's built up a 1/16th of an inch. But I always tried to add a little more on the stem and under the keel. And it is ALL barrier coat anyway. Did lite quick sanding between coats: scratching. If I put another coat on the next day I felt I didn't need to sand. Sanding knocks off pieces of the roller that get pulled off. This is what you adjust in your mixing to avoid - by the last two coats I'ld got it down!

I guess I'll see what happens at my first haulout. Supposed to hose it off and drop it back in. Maybe a diver can brush the growth off in the water. Cheaper? Do it by self? ScotchBrite pad scrub? Do know there is a fine barrier coat on 338's bottom. Copper/epoxy said to enhance ablative longevity and strength when you must paint. Will avoid sanding. But it would be fantastic not to have to ablative anymore!

Both epoxys mentioned here are 100% solids, no solvents. But I do keep a quart can of xynol handy. Tablespoons of the solvent will loosen up stuff too sticky or heavy, and may give a couple more minutes of working time. Mixed 24 oz per side, but don't quote me, it left some in the liner pan which just got hard and left in the pan for the next time. :p

[Notice in the upper left portion of the copper photo (Pg 11 - #156) a faint incised line caught by the light. That's the original scribe line in the gel coat showing thru, left there on purpose. That shows you can't hide no sins after eight coats. The white coats are very thin.]

commanderpete

02-01-2005, 01:33 PM

That is astonishing. I'm slack-jawed.

Sea Hood too!

Hmmmmmmm........Sea Hood. I must have one.

Bill

02-10-2005, 02:55 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen. Step right up and view the very latest in hutches to cover hatches.

#1 Hutch formed with urethane insulation foam

#2 Foam covered in double knit "old man's cotton underwear"

Bill

02-10-2005, 02:58 PM

#1 Two coats hi-build epoxy sanding prime with channels cut for lid

#2 PVC channel ready to be epoxied into channels

Bill

02-10-2005, 03:00 PM

Hutch sitting on lazarette hatch . . . to be continued.

Bill

02-10-2005, 03:17 PM

Interested spectators. We now move from outside to inside and the conversion of the bilge to a water tank. First, of course, is removal of the original sole plywood.

Bill

02-10-2005, 03:21 PM

View looking forward showing old plywood sole to the left, prepped "bilge" center and paper baffle pattern to the right.

Bill

02-10-2005, 03:29 PM

#1 First bulkhead installed at end of ballast keel (with original cover of mat & polyester left in place). Bulkhead establishes both the new top of the tank and the sole. [Displayed are Ebb's favorite tools, except for the Makita angle grinder - that's not a favorite.]

#2 View of bilge area under cockpit. Mat & epoxy lines the sump and helps support the end bulkhead. Bulkheads were cut using paperboard patterns.

Bill

02-10-2005, 03:32 PM

#1 Bulkheads lined up under a strongback - - not just tabbed in.

#2 Special flange former used to create filets.

Bill

02-10-2005, 03:34 PM

Filleting and tabbing complete showing glassed in PVC conduits to drain forward parts of boat.

Bill

02-10-2005, 03:37 PM

Interior view of the completed water tank. Tank cover being held to one side.

Bill

02-10-2005, 03:39 PM

Cover placed over the water tank forming the base for installing the sole.

Bill

02-12-2005, 10:34 PM

Water in the bilge and a house on the afterdeck? What is that guy thinking of?
;)

ebb

02-13-2005, 08:10 AM

don't swear, no sexual references,
smile a lot, and it's on the house.

Water tank holds 267# sweet water.

mbd

02-13-2005, 08:22 AM

Hutch sitting on lazarette hatch . . . to be continued.

:confused:
A slicker version of the outboard motor well on the Atom website?
http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/TaipanRefit.htm

Or perhaps a hunker hole when you get in trouble and your cabin area has been taken up by the emergency inflatable flotation system?

Do tell... :rolleyes:

ebb

02-13-2005, 08:26 AM

(Jim did a nize job on that Taipan!

Hey, I'm no David Blaine, but the motor don't tilt and the bilge don't hold no water!)

Swear you'll like the lid when it's done...
Rather have you swear at it,
rather than ignore it. :eek:

mbd

02-13-2005, 08:33 AM

Also, I'm still trying to come to grips with the irony of picturing Ebb at a marina pumping water INTO his bilge! Nice idea, BTW, easy to inspect/clean.

Actually, I think he's just trying to one-up the McGregor crowd by making that extra ballast usable. Heck, kick it up a notch use it as a tub!
:cool:

ebb

02-14-2005, 08:09 AM

Mike,
Multi-use is definitely where it's at. Geoff got me started down the rhumb line with his diesel tank below the cabin deck. I think there'ld be no way the keep the smell in check. 338 has it's gas engine hanging outside. Sweet water for voyaging in a ballast mode seems like a good idea anyway. At one time I thought of putting the batteries down there, but you 'perts would have dressed me down for that. Right?

Deodorized kerosene could be stowed there. How would a cruiser otherwise carry the fuel - in gallon cans? I hadn't got the dip stick made yet when the inspectors arrived to shoot the boat. Planned to fill the tank a gallon at a time and mark the stick accordingly. Check for leaks this way. Of course I thought about an official 'fill' but forgot to put it in. So have to do that and it's easier to proof if the lid is accessable from both sides.

Have looked into kerosene for cruising, we've talked about it on the forum. The belly tank would be a way to carry fuel for stove, heaters and backup lighting. But the smell issue rears its ugly head. Don't know. I committed the tank to Sc80 PVC fittings, not brass like Geoff did. Is PVC ok with fuel oil?

Found a site where a couple of Slovanians are looking for venture capital to swing a diesel ob into the market that doesn't weigh much more than the four stroke. And it would burn biofuel as well. Bet they looking at the middle of the market, be a long time befor a ten horse would drop below 250#!!

I got some nice bronze access plates on sale. (Mariner's Hardware) Wanted 6" but went for the 5 inchers.
5 means that I can't really get my arms in the hole (especially in the shallow end). Sometimes I feel like a motherless child.

From the multi-use stand point - it would be a great place to keep cured olives in brine Or wine.

Mike Goodwin

02-14-2005, 09:59 AM

Ebb,
I sure you filled us in before , but what is up with the 'keyhole' in your transom?
And what is the water tank surfaced with ?

ebb

02-14-2005, 03:28 PM

Mike,
Keyhole slot is where a key is inserted to start the boat. Pg 9 #127

Tank Coating is epoxyproducts.com NSP 120 / NSF 61 Approved Potable Water Epoxy. Read the MSDS.

If anyone is prone to using this product for this use: I do not advocate the use of this product for drinking water.

I will, after the tank is set up, and flushed a couple times, fill it with water and keep it in there for 8 weeks or so, after which I'll have it tested for the specific chemicals that might have leached from the epoxy. If something shows up I will run it thru a carbon filter and test the water again.

I do not trust THE chemical industry nor THE regulators to come clean with the consumer. The coating is applied outside of laboratory control by an unlicensed, untrained, probably-guilty-of-something (PGOS) individual. It is best to be wary of approvals and claims and the language used to describe attributes and limitations of a product. IMCO the only approvable containment for potable water is mineral glass. Haven't found a paint-on version yet. Nearly ALL plastics have been proven many times over to be a gamble or downright dangerous. Not sure about bakelite.

Robert Lemasters

02-16-2005, 05:19 PM

Not only are these glass classics seaworthy and well built but can be customized and updated to whatever you need. Great job, you have inspired me to install/ build internal gas tanks for the outboard engine and maybe some other things for my Commander. I'm still thinking/ looking/planning on how to raise and lower the outboard motor with some mechanical contrivence. Impressive, well done. :o

ebb

02-16-2005, 07:20 PM

Looking forward to reading of your exploits! :D

Self built-in frp gas tank is a real challenge.
Don't ever want to leak into the boat
or into the environment.

I have wondered at times how to go about getting them CG approved. I have wondered if I should bother at all. Might try to locate a certified tank tester. Must be live tank certifying tank testers around, right? The test would require the tank hold a certain amount of pressure for a certain length of time. I would do the air pressure test first myself - it has to be the same as the one used for new plumbing at a construction site.

But I have a feeling that even if the tanks passed they wouldn't be approved for gas because there probably are no regs for plastic gas tank testing. No sane person would think of it! :eek:

The only legal tanks are store bought.

ebb

02-19-2005, 08:18 AM

Robert,
Have seen a photo of a rail/slide gizmo hung on a transom that caused the motor to be lifted out of the water. The OB clamped to it. So it may be a market item. Getting the motor out of the water straight up would require a whole lot of travel in the device. Now, if you could lift it up to a point and then tilt the OB that might work. But not in the Ariel well. Unless you were tempted to put a keyhole (as Mike Called it) in the transom.

Straight up lift would require 12 to 18" (?). To cover the hole in the aft 'deck' the hutch/hatch on 338 has to clear 14" above the deck. And that's a tilted motor.

Must be a reason why for four decades skippers have lifted a two-cycle out and laid it sideways in the Lazerette or below.

The guy who invented the CapeHorn steering vane had a Triton. He rigged his OB on a spar that pivoted amidships off his starboard side, I think, that he lowered and raised with block and tackle at the cockpit. You may find his web site. He did some serious cruising. But what happened to the motor on a portack? :p

Tony G

02-19-2005, 03:45 PM

Yves Gelinas and his A30 Jean du Sud. I recomend his film about his round about. Groovy little boat too.

www.capehorn.com

I have to use the English site still :(

ebb

02-19-2005, 05:25 PM

Thanks for posting Gelinas' page here. The 10 horse OB was mounted off his port quarter. Just visited real quick.

The boat was an A30. Way to go Carl!

His dodger instead of ss tubes had cloth/rubber ones that were kept pressurized with a pump. Collapsable in way of a comber.

His Cape horn vanes are guranteed for one circumnavigation.

A bon viveur with boatfuls of bons mots.

Tony G

02-21-2005, 07:24 AM

Ebb,
Refering to post#125 on p. 9

I have a question (go figure) After filling the gap between the cabin top and the headliner around your main ports, how stiff did that region become. If you push out on the port opening with one hand and eight inches away you pull in with your other hand, how much twist, if any, do you get?

Also, what is the average thichness/dimention from outside cabin top to inside liner around the opening?

Thanks, Tony

ebb

02-21-2005, 10:10 AM

HiYa Tony,
Mine may be different from yours for a number of reasons. I would just hang out in the boat with a number of those short clean shims that come wrapped in celophane you get from the hardware. And orange handled squeeze clamps. Do every hole together til you have concensus.

Experiment until you get the same overall thickness measured from outside to inside. I'ld bet the measurement varies from boat to boat.

It's possible that a liner could go in a little crooked in the rush of things at the plant. That might mean that one side of the liner is closer to the cabin side than another. My guess that is pretty remote. But since the inside of the cabin and the liner were never going to be seen by anybody there might be some shortcuts taken that would make the mating of the two a little difficult. My liner was definitely WONKUS in a number of places.

But space between liner and cabin at the windows on 338 nigh equal right and left.

Since you are not reinstalling the original frames and you doing a version of thru bolting, you'll be able to cut each bolt exact. Therefor if you HAVE to end up with varying thickness you are out of trouble. But it would be so much easier if all your bolts could be the same length. And that means the deadlight holes have to be the same thickness all around.

The liner is also bent out of shape:
at the compression beam
under the deck
around the companion way
and wherever there are fastenings for rails and gear.
"TWIST" must be a relative thing. I wouln't push anything into an unnatural shape. Wouldn't you think that the original mold for the liner was made very fair? And you'ld think the unseen inside of the cabin would be pretty clean and fair too.

The cabin IS fair, that narrow section between the holes should be absolute fair with the outside of the cabin. It has to be to mount the deadlight frames. The 'cheating' came by squeezing the relatively bendy liner. Maybe you can clamp a temporary strongback to the outside, and see if you can open a space in that skinny piece of center liner to the space you have decided on, without deflecting the outside cabin piece. Sight along the outside to see if is fair - bend a batten over it to see if something has been bent out of fair over time.

If that LINER center piece won't comply, it could be cut and 'repaired' with all the epoxy and cabosil you are going to stuff in there.

Would guess that to come up with the deadlights Pearson has designed there that the space was assumed to be constant all around each of the 4 frames. HAD to be, the inner frame machine screws all screwed into deadend holes. Therefor the space had to be the same all round. The liner had to be beautifully fair when made Then the guys had to crank it into submission. Over time it has maybe taken a set. But I believe the cabin itself has never twisted, except that there skinny piece between the front window and the back window. MAYBE!

Will come back from the boat with the thickness I came up with. Should say the boat came up with it. But I felt we just were doing the equalizing that bloody Pearson should have done in the first place. I'll let you know. Long winded ebb.

{Strength? I'll have to bang and see. The filled center section shows very little deflection when hit. It's amazing how stiff the sides became even with the gaping holes. The sides are mildly curved, sculpted. The convex curves of the cabin add a lot of strength. The relatively narrow original frames follow these mild curves well but not the glass. Applying 3/8 or 1/2" lexan to the outside and thru bolting thru epoxy filled sides will provide your cabin with unbelievable 360 roll over green water tsunami comber strength.}

Bill

03-16-2005, 02:52 PM

Hey Ebb, here's a Cal 25 sporting a hard dodger similar to what I understand you are planning . . . :p

Bill

03-16-2005, 02:53 PM

How about a close-up?

ebb

03-16-2005, 03:49 PM

the juxtaposition of circular deadlights with the angular is particularly gratifying. The designer, obviously with safety in mind, has kept the openings quite conservative in the event of boarding seas. Hard edges and flat planes will cut any comber to pieces thereby shrugging off and canceling the weight of the water.

The multi-purpose flat top will be useful for solar panels, sunbatheing or keeping a goat tethered. Clever use of WWII mindsweeper grey is in keeping with the whole nautical theme. And the crawl-thru entrance with its centrally located recessed latch is curious - but safe, no doubt - as is the paucity of dangerous vents. Everyone has his own limits. All in all an interesting effort!

Mike Goodwin

03-16-2005, 05:04 PM

Hey Bill, Enough of this boat porn ! 1st Commander Pete and now you when will it stop . I doubt if even one of Pete's gals would make that boat look good .

commanderpete

03-18-2005, 08:05 AM

If you're gonna do it, do it right.

ebb

03-18-2005, 09:13 AM

Is it having a baby..?

Robert Lemasters

03-19-2005, 11:18 AM

As a kid we had a double ended steel lifeboat painted black and gray. It was about an ugly a boat as you could want;however, we had more fun motering up and down the Delaware River and Bay. I bet the owner of the sail boat pictured thinks it beautiful,looks like its used alot. I must have bad eyes or am having somekind of 60's flashback but are there really two identical boats pictured above, who would make such things and what are they used for? At first I thought they were some mass production pleasure craft for patriotic workers from the old Soviet Union or East Germany untill I took notice of the American auto. :o

ebb

03-20-2005, 06:24 AM

HAS to be a catamaran, right? Those hulls ain't wide enuf to stand up on their own. IF it is a cat, just imagine the coordination it'd take the skipper and the mate to steer the thing with them separate rudders and ten foot tillers! :eek:

Mike Goodwin

03-20-2005, 07:19 AM

That is a James Wharram cat, not sure of the model , might be a Tangaroa .
The tillers are connected with an arm so they move in concert .
That is not a "stock" cabin design !

Bill

06-11-2005, 08:21 PM

Plantation tending has kept EBb very busy this spring, but he has made some progress on the hutch for the ob compartment. Looking at the aft end from outside the "garage:"

Bill

06-11-2005, 08:23 PM

From above

Bill

06-11-2005, 08:23 PM

With lid in place (Got to figure out why the flash quit):

Tim61N

06-12-2005, 11:33 AM

Nice craftsmanship on that hood Ebb. I was wondering where you are putting the traveler now, on the hood somehow or further forward in the cockpit?

ebb

06-12-2005, 06:50 PM

Thanks Tim!,
Travelor? Whart travelor?

Well, since this is sort of a public work in progress, maybe you can get me out of trouble :D

Aunty Ariel, the Angel of inspiration has failed me on this - however:

1) There could be a midboom travelor on the after part of the hard dodger I plan to put there. But the Angel is telling me that the dodger being so dangerously prominent has to be rounded (therefor not wide enough for a travelor) and I have the feeling that the dodger will have to have a hatch in it also, because it only will have sitting height under.

2) Since the boom on 338 is to be canted up to allow standing in the cockpit, and a vertical pole of some design could be installed permanently to rig a crane to lift the OB out of the well, perhaps this can be conceived as an arch (ouch!) and could also have the travelor on it. Certainly haven't any experience here! This strong structure at the end of the cockpit really appeals to me. It could be independant or part of the push pit. Have installed continuous maranti backing plate under the rear deck, ready for any idea.

Don't have an aesthetic problem with an arch so long as it is practical and necessary.

3) Is a travelor really necessary? What did we do befor Harken? Is there a REAL advantage for a cruiser to have one?

GUYS, GALS, TIM, This is YOUR responsibility :D

Tim61N

06-12-2005, 07:39 PM

Traveler or no, I think mainsheet probably should be fairly near aft end of boom for best sail shape control. How much clearance would you say you will have between top of hood and boom? Maybe you could mount some short pedastals on the hood so as not to interfere with your hatch? How strong is that hood anyway??? :rolleyes:

mbd

06-12-2005, 07:42 PM

Boom gallows that double as a lift for the OB? Perhaps similar to this modification on a COntessa 26?

http://www.pocketcruisers.com/contessa%20corner/tech_traveler.html

ebb

06-13-2005, 07:12 AM

Tim,
Stupidly didn't weigh the hutch befor install. Fairly light, but you and me could both stand on it. With added backing plates the sides could be used to partial support a structure that has a base on the deck. Compression strength is built into the rounded shape. but a pointy whomp might hole it, it's about 1/4" in most places, the lid is reinforced with pvc foam, the water channels meant to add 'rib' strength to the opening.

In thinking about this conundrum, It is my feeling that the structure for the travelor should have all of its strength from the base, the feet.

Like Mike's Contessa example (Thanks!), even tho it is obvious rigid, it is able to take the shock of a jibe independantly of, say, the coamings if it had been designed that way.

On an Ariel the end of the boom is at the end of the cockpit. I agree, it is the #1 location for the boom sheet. I'm not sure the hutch creates a convenient seat back/arm rest, I mean I'm not sure if one can sit back there while sailing, but I angled the hutch with that in mind, not thinking that the travelor might have to be there! Therefore in the interests of heads and tails the travelor has to be further back and/or higher.

The Contessa seems to have the sheet purchase at an angle to the end of the boom. The sheet seems to go forward at an angle to the boom. How much of an angle is allowable? I'm aware the travelor at near 90 degrees below the boom is the way it is often designed.

A boom gallows under a boom that's 6 and a half feet off the cockpit sole is TALL! Could be a sliding one? But to lift the OB out of the well with the 'crane' with block and tackle will take a lot of height. So maybe my lifting gear will have to be separate (and carried stowed) like already designed by Gene and Garhauer.

So, now, if the travelor bridge is half way back to get it out of the way, it then will be right over the well.

What happens if the travelor is mounted virtually at the stern? It would would be a bridge maybe nearly 12" high. Is this kopecetic, my friends, is this a solution? Thanks!

JOE ANTOS

06-26-2005, 11:51 AM

EB,
Since you are making a cruising styled boat...You might concider the type of travler that works off two blocks on the base...IE, they could be mounted on the base of the deck just in front of the hutch...I have seen this on many cruising boats that don't use a travlers at all...I would call it and end block arrangement.....I will try to find a boat and send a picture...Joe Antos

Bill

06-26-2005, 02:01 PM

. . concider the type of travler that works off two blocks on the base.

Isn't that the style of the original main sheet setup on the Areil/Commander? The blocks were placed on the two raised sections of the deck just forward of the lazarette hatch and aft of the cockpit seats.

JOE ANTOS

06-26-2005, 07:50 PM

Bill,
Hi there...I think I saw that style on an Ariel somewhere and on some other boats too...The ability to sheet to winward is lost from my veiw. But it might work for his boat working around the Hutch..Joe

ebb

06-27-2005, 07:55 AM

Thank you, gentlemen, for your interest.

Might I ask the panel:
The main purpose of a mainsheet travelor is to make it possible to have more adjustment when beating.
Another reason is to have a more conventient location for the helmsman to control the sheet, which comes from a central block.
Are there other uses for the travelor? Is a travelor necessary for sail performance?
Doesn't a rigid vang add more control of the boom that used to asked of the travelor? In other words, maybe we can go back to the original block-only system?
Has anybody sailed in the Ariel with the old method. Can you compare the two?
Joe intimates that the deck blocks could be mounted, let's say, more or less even with the end of the boom. Since the boom amidships is the only time that relation occurs, why does it matter where the blocks are placed? There at the end of the cockpit or further aft?

Is it cockpit aesthetics that makes the boom/sheet arrangement look right only when the end of the boom is directly over the travelor? Even tho it could be argued that the boom is never there while sailing?
Is there a mechanical reason why the travelor could not be mounted across the stern rail? Too odd? Just not done? Just asking. This is hypothetical, the hatch needs to be raised of course.

It just occurs to me that a travelor setup gives at least one more part to the block system, making it easier to haul the boom in.

Has anybody entertained the notion that it would be a good thing to get the travelor out of the cockpit?

Ideas? Mucas Gracious!!!

c_amos

06-27-2005, 09:21 AM

I should like to add my questions to yours.......

Added on edit;
But upon edit, I think I will post mine in another thread.....

link to thread on Main sheet Travlelers (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?p=9819&posted=1#post9819)

JOE ANTOS

06-27-2005, 11:01 PM

Eb,
Looking at the hutch..... is possible to mount the blocks on the outer sides of the hutch since it is made fast and looks strong...As far as I can would isee the far end of the boat might be too far aft to mount the controls of blocks or a raised traveler....The lines would come up at an angle and could rub the hutch.....I once looked hard at installing the traveler on my older Ariel in the cockpit...about 12 inches back from the drop boards.....I finally decided it would be too busy in close when working the sheets....As far as the vang goes. I use it to steady the down wind and reaching legs....keeps steady pressure and dosen't rise and fall like line vangs....Going up wind it can help flatten the main...When its light I keep it loose....I would like to visit some day to see the boat...Joe

ebb

06-28-2005, 07:10 AM

Thanks, Joe,
Glad to show you the boat. Could use your input. See your 'private message.'

Was wondering if the rigid vang performs some of the functions of the standard travelor in the cockpit making it possible to go back to the original 3-block mainsheet. I'm not predjudiced against any right-on solution. It's not hard to 'see' it in stainless steel tube.

Mike's Contessa link above has another guy's installation using tube - tho not as impressive as the angles and wood one it looks lighter and the idea could be borrowed to get the blocks and/or travelor off the deck and out of the cockpit. If the lead to the boom was OK. ???? :confused:

epiphany

10-08-2005, 09:37 AM

Ebb -

Dropped back into here in search of under-cockpit quarterberth info. Had to change my Thread View settings to be able to find your thread.

Over 100 days since an update. Tony is winning (you said so yourself). What's going on out there at the Borregaard Skunkworks? :D

Maybe you can bribe Bill with some fresh wine to get him to post some new photos. I'll send the cheese and crackers if some interior shots can be posted. :D

commanderpete

10-18-2005, 10:10 AM

Many race boats have the traveller down low across the middle of the cockpit (I would hate that, a real shin banger)

But, how about across the cockpit seats at the very end in front of the hutch?

c_amos

10-18-2005, 10:42 AM

Seems like a good place for the traveler, but for the mainsheet.

I it seems to me like it would spend an awful lot of time right in the middle of things, or forced to be bent arond the sides of the cabin top.

Let me go out and sail the boat, (it is 72f, blowing about 12) I will tie a line around the boom and hang it down to try to picture it and get back to you.

ebb

10-18-2005, 12:58 PM

wha..? w h a a? oh, here aye is.
C'amos, C'pete, Thanks for the input and the research.

I see now a seatback high tube rail just outside the coamings. designed in conjunction with the 'breakwaters' at the front of the coamings. They would terminate at the hutch and would have heavy weather sunbrella panels for wind and water protection. The construction back there at the hutch could include a tube traveler base across the end of the cockpit at a higher level. If I did decide for that I'd probably set it exactly over the end of the cockpit with a protecting handhold rail in front of it, the hand rail over the seats. The height is a trial and error mockup situation because you'd be real careful hair and ears and fingers were not danger. The taller and more elaborate the structure, the more weight.

A hand hold at the end of the cockpit is in itself much desireable!
Wonder how many fingers and toes are put in jeopardy with in or end cockpit travelor systems? Then again is the traveler an absolute?

I've kidded myself about how much of a jungle gym is necessary on the aft end of 338. Me and 338 are well into a weight issue! I know we too small for wind generators and radar towers and whatever. If the travelor/handhold piece still allowed the OB to be craned out of the well, you could design the stern rail out of the picture. Don't know about the solar panels, when I get to it will most likely go for flexible and a semi-bimini type mount. ???

One duck is tied to the next duck and the next.

In the beginning I reinforced the foward corners of the seats (icebox removed) thinking an arch could be put over the cockpit there, anchored on the seats, perhaps part of the dodger. That may become an option again because the boom is raised now, the arch could be higher up and access to the companionway more dignified. Don't believe our OE boom can be converted to mid-boom sheeting. I like the loosefoot sail, so it HAS to be end-boom sheeting.

How's that sheet lead look?

c_amos

10-18-2005, 06:52 PM

Ebb,

Somehow I read your post, and got the idea you were toying with the idea of going FORWARD with the traveler!

Many race boats have the traveller down low across the middle of the cockpit (I would hate that, a real shin banger)

But, how about across the cockpit seats at the very end in front of the hutch? I guess I read 'hatch' (thinking of the companionway hatch) where you wrote hutch. :confused:

So I made up a line to the boom while I was sailing around (on a perfectly beautiful afternoon) just aft the companionway, and then laid a boat hook across the forward end of the cockpit. The irea seemed manageable, only real problem I saw was that you would not be able to simple leave the traveler 'centered' as it would make it difficult to go below (but not impossible).

Maybe I should not even have admitted looking into this, since it was all based on an understanding. I will say that misunderstanding or not I think I would rather have this set up then the one pictured above.

ebb

10-18-2005, 10:48 PM

Hey Craig, envy your sail this Sunday, yes, I do.

Everytime I alter something it generates a domino effect.
Don't recall anyubody here objecting to a midboom sheeting arrangement. Caution comes from me from what I've read. Do believe it would mean a stiffer boom to take the three bails and blocks. Not there yet!

As finding a place for a travelor becomes more serious, the over the c'way becomes more an alternative again. Another addition to 338 will be a hard dodger. But at the moment it's figuring out if a hard permanent windscreen with tube and fabric pram hood behind it is feasible. The top of the screen would be above the forward end of the opening and the hood would be folded forward to the windscreen allowing good access below. My lean is toward a well rounded dodger, front and top, that won't include a wide travelor as part of it, as I have seen. It would be great to get two for the price of one if they could be structurally combined. But it's not going to happen. I've witnessed that a cockpit wide travelor is necessary for effective boom placement and depowering.

So if this travelor is somewhere over the bridge deck - because the further back on the boom the block are the less force needed to sheet - it would be separate from the hood and would be designed to be high enough to get below without contortion. It could be above the dodger when the dodger was depolyed and designed in such a way as to be grabbable for going on deck and getting into the cockpit. If boats can go around without any rear ends and have their travelor in a slot under the cockpit deck than why not go contrare somewhere above the companionway. Hunters do it in the stern. Maybe a taller arch over the bridge deck is possible with something near cocpit width???? OH boy.... what a pickle.

[In the middle of the night I 'saw' the travelor arch looking like a boom gallows with tube legs coming up from outside the coamings at the end of the dodger. Now, more awake, this arch thing is easy to move back and forth ...in the mind. And there it is over the back end of the cockpit again!!!]

Think that the tails of the travelor sheets would be better away from the tiller and the OB - better up front with the halyards reefers cunningham and vang ends, and down hauls. Anybody with me on this visualization?

Thanks for the test! I guess I got myself into this, again. "It is all in how you go from one mistake to the next." Let's hope awl ebb goes sortof gracefully and with more speed toward the better compromise. :(

cjackson

01-12-2006, 12:29 PM

Ebb,
Ran across these Poly Vinyl Chloride cylindrical water tubes...thought they might fit in your custom tank boxes up forward.

http://www.western-marine.com/page123.htm

Chris ;)

ebb

01-12-2006, 12:48 PM

Might have run into Western Marine myself befor. Then discovered these Western Marines is in Western New Zealand or Southern Ireland. OUTther somere.

One of the best if not THE best online northern hemisphere hardware stores is MacMaster Carr. Try em out, takes 15 minutes to comprehend their unique but very useful catalog system.

In fact the choices of possible tank/system hose, tube and fittings on that site (including vinyl, pvc) are incredible but usually limited by how much money you want to spend.

I have wished we could talk about it on a thread but didn't think, as I often find out, anybody would be interested.

I'm still wondering what the best is - and what the second & third choices would be.
Ideal plumbing layout,
Best hand pumps,
Best electric pump,
Best plumbing material? ;)

(I know I have researched every 'through bulkhead' ie thru-tank fitting on the net. Never have found one that would really work well with glassed in place frp tanks. They are large flange fittings that depend on a rubber washer for the seal - which makes it a maintenance item. The best plastic ones imco are made by Hayward. Because I wanted tanks that would drain into the system and tend to self clean I've ended up epoxying pvc pipe thru tank as low as I could get it. Even got some s.s. pipe nipples to make thru-tanks, but felt, perhaps erroneously, that I'd get a better glue-in with plastic to plastic. Obviously would be best to put in a replacable thru-tank. Make sure trhere is an access plate into the tank over any thru-tank. Or design tank so you draw liquid out of the top.....etc.....etc.)

c_amos

06-14-2006, 10:55 AM

Ebb,

Just read through this thread again, looking at your hatch-mounting-frame-building methods. ;) Think my Bomar hatch will stay in it's box for a while longer.....

Would love to see an update of your progress.

Thanks,

ebb

06-14-2006, 01:47 PM

Really not so difficult. There must be 10 ways to do it.
Why not put the question out on a new thread to get some
responses not related to this thread. Mike Goodwin, Frank
Durant, for instance, probably know and recommend a far simpler
method than what ebb came up with. You betcha.

What's Tony G. up to these days???

OK, snake with legs here:
It's been awhile :eek: since those Bomars (pg 10 136-7-8) were messed with, and they are not even bolted in yet!
Believe I had to cut the old hatch coaming off - without making the hole larger, and grinded it fair to the camber. Then laid out the larger hole my Bomar required. I knew what wood I had to use for the 'lining' (coaming?) for the Bomar and cut a hole that the wood would line up with on the inside of the Bomar flange. Made sure I cut the hole square by adjusting the foot of the jigsaw (or bluetape on a stirring stick). The liner is essentially a 90 degree box in the hole. So you can temp screw the box together. Ground off the gelcoat out a couple inches all round.

Decided on a minor forward tilt. Slightly higher on the aft side. Don't know why. If you cut the liner tight enough (force fit) just lay the Bomar (took the top off) on the pieces and tap them til you're satisfied, parallel with the deck, tilted, whatever. Doublesided carpet tape may work too. Can also hold the liner (box or pieces) by screwing into the balsacore, but you'd have to make these holes disappear later.

Cut the bottom of the liner to close to the finished depth and forward curve and aft curve (they are different.) Use a suitably sized little block of wood (width of proposed trim) or a compass to scribe. It would help if you have a finished smooth surface on the roof inside.

The Bomar flange is 1 1/2" wide. The liner in 338 is 1/2". That allows ample solid material for the bolts that fasten the hatch (the filler is 1" wide) - bolts go round the outside of the flange about 1/2" in. The material in the photos is 3/4" thick. With that thickness it's obvious I intended to recess the nuts. If the result is too 'busy', a thin finishing strip might go over them. Or some resilient peel and stick rubber. Could let the liner run proud and fit in thinner trim for the bolts. That way there may be some protection for the top of the head.

The trim around the hole will take some fitting and as an option be held in place with screws thru the liner into the edges if thick enough. Small screws were used as the plugs are are only 1/4". This is the trim that the bolts from the Bomar will come thru. The trim will then be held quite securely! You will have to make a paper pattern to create radius trim pieces on a bandsaw out of thicker stock for the foward and aft. An oscillating drum sander is very helpful too. Would do it that way (skinny trim) if I did it again because it would help the hatch look smaller and more tidy and create a couple pleasing shadow lines. But you don't have to do this til later. Or, you can finish off the inside pieces up to the final sanding. depending on your bedding choice, you can positively support the trim pieces without screws with spring battens from the V-berth or sole. Until you are ready for bedding compound and final Bomar instal.)

You have to prepare and sand the liner to its finished shape. Because you won't be able to remove it after the next stage. No reason that whole hatch support couldn't be wood. However if you decide on an all wood frame under the Bomar it probably would have to be taller off the deck. The unconventional way described here gets the hatch as close to the deck as possible. The fronts of the Bomars sit on the deck.

Now, a perhaps controversial 'cheat'. Blue tape off the narrow outside edges of the Bomar bottom frame very very carefully. But befor that apply 2sided fiberglass carpet tape to its bottom - trace & cut it with the utility blade to the exact outside profile leaving the peeler strip on (epoxy doesn't stick to it - however mylar is a better, smoother, flatter release surface and it is recommend here.) Place it taped up right on the liner. Center the inside edges on the liner. Now's the time to get the liner flat and square if you need to (low angle plane.) Then firmly clamp the prepared frame to the liner.

Fill the space under the frame with mishmash.
Make sure the wood in there is juiced and primed and load in a mix of cabosil, glass fibers and epoxy. But don't fill quite all the way out to the edge {'the edge' means your edge, ie you might want to lean it way out on the bottom...] at the bottom! After this is set you can take your form off (the Bomar bottom frame) and check how well you did. But you don't HAVE to move it yet, ok? Might be better to leave it alone, because you may have to mask it over again.
Fill any voids (can be done later). Make sure your wood to epoxy joint is seamless. You hopefully have great confidence in the epoxy you use! No leaks will happen at this join! You are molding and bonding to the deck. And that part of the liner that sticks up out of hole. [Because the wood can expand and contract on all its other sides the epoxy/wood joint should never open up imho. In the final install you will be bedding the frame in polysulfide (no doubt) and the fastenings are going thru the epoxy buildup - SO the wood is under no stress!!!]

Clamp the frame back in place and fill out to the edge with filleting mix (epoxy and fumed silica.)* Always prime the surface first with plain epoxy and blot or wipe away the excess. Add universal color (white, like gelcoat, is good) if you wish. Here you decide how to hold your spatula blade. I like a little splay outward to this riser. A steady hand. The rounded corners are a butch. But once it's set, take off the form again and with clothbacked sandpaper carpet-taped to a piece of plywood sand away until the slope and surface are pretty smooth and shapely. Mostly. This filleting stuff can get pretty hard. Keep the deck surround pristine as well. This way you can shape to your heart's content and your muscle's burn. Get those corners all the same (you can slice with a sharp chisel if the plastic's not totally set) even if the slope is not quite like the straight runs. You're 'trueing' up the hardened goop for the next ( easier) stage:

Clamp the rig back on and fill and shape with easy sanding fairing mix. (WS 407 and laminating epoxy.) The smoother the surface is - and thinner the last passes of fairing compound are - the more finesse you gain.

[Have since, on 338, filleted (rounded) the join at the deck you see in the photo and botched it - but with fairing mix its easy to sand and shape till it's smooth and even. A piece of sandpaper around a dowel is perfect here.]

__________________________________________________ ______________________________
* FILLETING MIX -when you mix 2-part epoxy and fumed silica together you get a kind of gel.
You experiment to find out how stiff or loose is good for you. When you prime your work with plain 2-part liquid you create the bond to the surface you form the gel to. I brush the liquid on with a brush then blot and wipe the surface 'dry' with paper towels.
If you don't the liquid left behind will combine with your gel and change its consistency, making it looser. It then can sag and fall out of the shape you want. Filleting mix is structural. Gets very hard and difficult to remove material from when shaping after it's set.

FAIRING MIX - is your laminating epoxy mixed with West System's 407 powder. It will become a paste. It becomes a hard but relatively easy material to sand. It's the brown stuff 338 has all over the outside of the topsides in the photos. It becomes a hard surface that can be feathered thin and sands easy. That is why in building up this pad under the Bomar frame you want to leave sanding room so you can fair it even and smooth.

MISHMASH (not my word) is 2-part mixed with chopped fiberglass and fumed silica. It is structural and is a void filler. It is hairy and hard when set, horrible to grind and sand. The proportions you experiment with, but you don't mix in too much glass. It's there to keep the mass from becoming too brittle, muscle fiber. In the above deck build up, you tuck it in under the taped frame to avoid dealing with it again!!!
Sure hope some of this makes sense......

c_amos

06-14-2006, 07:19 PM

I have read it three time now, and I think it is getting more clear. Sounds like being a master epoxy craftsman makes this easier... :) That is ok, I have got plenty of sandpaper. :D

Thanks for the break down Ebb, I'll be sure to post the results when I di it.

Bill

07-23-2006, 04:11 PM

Just finished a photo shoot at Ebb's boat and found this example of "encapsulated" lead ballast lying next to his boat . . . At first I thought he might have started a new project . . . :D

Bill

07-25-2006, 12:50 PM

Ebb replies: "Bill, you don't know this: but I removed the ballast from 338 to make up for all the weight I've added up top." :D

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:06 AM

Ebb: "Showing the end on the new toerail and a transom begging for a taffrail!"

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:08 AM

Ebb: "Curtains and runs from a disastrous spray-on primer fiasco. Expectations were of a thin easy to sand final prime. Even paid the guy for his time. And yours truly spent the hottest days on record in San Rafael longboarding and sanding the damn stuff nearly all off!"

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:09 AM

Ebb: "Port scuppers cut into the molded rail under the new toerail just forward of the Pearson deck scupper. Whether this is the place for them is arguable. They are also near the winch base and will constrict water flow on its way aft. It is way more traditional to have scuppers evenly spaced along the bulwark."

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:10 AM

Ebb: "Portrait of the port side toerail"

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:11 AM

Ebb: "Finally the OB motor well gets its primer coat, albeit lots of runs, but relatively easy to sand. Wish I could get somebody else to do it!"

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:13 AM

Ebb: "This shows the dodger from the cockpit. The piece is made from xmat and epoxy over a form. 1/2-inch pvc foam was bent and glued to that and more xmat on top. Classic sandwich. Works in progress have many unknowns and surprises. How it will actually finish up can't tell (ideas, anyone?) - or even if it will have a place there aesthetically. Unlike Geoff, who has the area covered, the dodger proposed here is only a windscreen requiring an expensive pipe and canvas pram hood to fully protect the c'way. Dodger has its own bridge over the c'way making it independent of the seahood. There's a choice whether it will be permanently installed or made removable. Picture shows the big side hatch-slide rails now built in. They run the length of the cabin top and the seahood (also removable) mounts there on. Note taller coamings extending up from the inside and the mockup of a flat hatch."

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:15 AM

Ebb: "This shot shows the seahood made with the original sliding hatch. There may be room under the forward part for a dorade. Dodger shows some off-the-wall possible windows. I had planned 3/8" carbonate for these - but bending the plastic to those curves is totally daunting. Center window indicates a Taylor-Made opening hatch."

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:16 AM

Ebb: "Starboard locker conversion to water tank. Doorskin to the bulkhead with the pencil lines proposes cutting the bulkhead back even further."

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:17 AM

Ebb: "This is a trial idea in doorskin. What are the pros and cons? The laminated beam would go under the one already there (too massive! lost head room!). But it would open up the longer berth room the skipper requires. The doorskin shows a compass curve, the strongest architectural shape possible, in the only form possible, or am I missing something. The present compression beam with its struts imho is perfectly adequate. The arch is strangely more pleasing to me than what's there."

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:20 AM

Ebb: "Deck has been lowered to accommodate 19.5-inch height of AirHead head. Discovered, after the yard leveled the boat, that the V'berths are higher at the fore end by 3/4-inch."

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:21 AM

Ebb: "A 1/4-inch thick ply lid covers the sump here. Tank fittings exit here as do 3 pvc pipes from the focsl, anchor locker, V'berth bilge. Area under cockpit is waiting for battery compartment."

Bill

08-01-2006, 09:23 AM

We had more photos of the drooling paint, but felt they were too embarrassing to post :o

tha3rdman

08-01-2006, 10:46 AM

Ebb, what did you use to coat the inside of your water tank?

Edit: Also did you glass straight the the existing plywood? If so did you lay any type of barrier to keep it from sticking to the ply (I can just imagine for some reason needing to remove it and all the explicitives that would accompany such a feet had it been bonded to the ply wood.)

commanderpete

08-01-2006, 11:13 AM

WOW

I like the arch, but the interior is opened up very nicely already.

I'd go with the biggest windows possible for the dodger, even if you have to use vinyl windows. A handrail on either side would be good too.

Love the toerail

ebb

08-01-2006, 02:42 PM

Sea'pete, Thanks, for your input! Maybe the arch and the windows are related in that we do want to get the widest effect possible. Always in the mix is the 'form follows function' maxim. The give and take of that is the fun part in trying to be unique but also end with something that looks right.

Dodgers are definitely structures that have to be made to be seen thru. My choice of a hatch for the center requires all the framing that comes with those things. Have a feeling it will seem too small. But it was the largest ready-made I could find for that space. And the hatch light is glass.

Have wanted to have windows in the dodger that look related to the windows in the cabin. An attempt to stay with the '60s look. That means a frame around the 'light'. That means giving up see-thru area. The best, easiest, even strongest, way is carbonate slabbed and thru-bolted over openings. Can be cut to look like more see-thru area too. But from the beginning I've wanted to keep that framed look. We'll see!

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
3rdmon,
The tank coating is epoxyproducts.com's NSP 120. A 100% solids 2 to 1 NSF 61 Approved Potable Water Epoxy. This is the caveat: NSF (National Sanitation Foundation Testing Lab.) is a private agency that takes FDA statistics and works them into a certification for a product or material. 61 is a number that refers to potable water. This epoxy is certified for tanks of a 1000gals or more. I'd like to know what the criterion is that judges whether an epoxy is good for a tank or a quart container?

When you search for a coating in the USA that is certified for potable water in smaller tanks you won't find it. Imagine all the containers we store and drink water from, including epoxy. I needed something.

I used this NSP 120 as the barrier coat on the outside hull. It's a hard, shiney, recoatable, dense product. It has an odor when fresh that disappears after set. I asked Paul at epoxyproducts.com about the smell and he didn't know - but I was assured it wasn't solvent. And so far as I know using it inside the boat hasn't produced a reaction. I take care to mix this product in one container and then pour it into another and stir again to make sure all of it is thoroly mixed. No uncured epoxy we hope. We're looking for an inert coating when cured. But who knows what we have here. Research it and use it without my recommendation.

Novolac epoxies, highly chemical resistant, used for coating gas tanks for instance, seem to be something to look into. All we're looking for is a hard non-reactive liner. I will pass potable, drinking/cooking water from a tank thru a carbon filter.

Don't know how far you want to get into this: but when I researched rubber (for seams and fittings) NO polysulfide passes the potable water line. NONE! That means polyurethane has to be used. Sikaflex 1A is OK, 5200 probably as well. I think I used the 1A because it had a longer open time(?) and was cheaper, coming from the hardware store. For fuel related we MUST use polysulfide (Thiokol was originally invented to keep WWII planes together, including fuel tanks.) - for water related we MUST use polyurethane.

The tank was made inside the original V-berth. The tank is part of the hull, let's say. Unusual are the large triangular sectioned fillers glassed in under the plywood top. There is a final lid which has two 6" s.s. access plates and a nylon waterfill. Dunno about the vent yet. The interior is completely glassed. The tank has a narrow raised flat bottom. The draw will be out the bottom, ie thru the bulkhead. The baffle is 3/16" homemade frp sheet held in place with fillets - with the top let into a groove in the lid.

mbd

08-01-2006, 05:59 PM

Love the toerailDitto that! And the scuppers too... Functional and elegant. Looks like a Fuller tool kit was put to use. :D

Your open interior is sweet. The arch is interesting, but I would think you could use your existing bulkheads for shelving or storage, things I'm sure you can never have enough of.

frank durant

08-01-2006, 06:34 PM

LOVE the raised toe rail !!! The scuppers are great...and needed. The little 'bulwork'(spell check:Mike) will sure give you a confident feeling going forward offshore.....not to mention a great tool saver to boot.Lookin good buddy...it IS progressing.Too bad about the primer job...WOW !! You and I AFTER a bottle of rum could have done better...ouch!! Think of all that sanding in the heat as a gym alterative.Keep it going Ebb...it really looks great.

ebb

08-02-2006, 06:02 AM

Thanks gents for the vote on the rail. That feels good!

frank durant

08-02-2006, 08:30 PM

Ebb...I'm not gettin a handle on your interior??.Open IS great,huge watertank down low is super,nice 1/4 berth too if I remember right.Can't place the galley?? Any final ideas yet??

ebb

08-02-2006, 10:34 PM

Franko,
Keep telling self to make fullsize mockup with paper and cardboard. I think the basic thing is to have minimal open access to the starboard Q'berth, with the dinette continuing off of it all the way to the bulkhead under the mast. Want to have the largest table possible. I 'see' the table top with hinges somewhere in the middle so that half of it can easily fold UP - hopefully leaving enough room for the off watch to be comfortable when the dinette converts to bunk.

Ideal would be to push the whole 'double' bunk bed thing forward (over the V-berth tanks) so the the galley area and the c'way are free. That's why the compass arch looks so good to me - and it's just a few inches extra gained at bunk level. When the laminated compression beam was built of white oak, I used cloth with epoxy to glue between lams. Resorcinol supposedly doesn't like the wood, and I don't think brown glue is waterproof enough. All the other glues have a problem with creep, except the polyurethanes which I've had problems with just in normal glueing. Anyway, it's a complicated messy project making that bloody arch the hard way - so hopefully I won't find myself doing it!

Have to have the galley at the c'way so I can stand (with the hatch open.) The counter won't continue over to where the icebox was, which has to remain open. I think the port corner is the best location for the kitchen in 338. Aside from shelves and cupboards I'm not certain what will be between the galley and the V'berth on the port side. Because this is standing room here, the ladder has to be removable, tho steps built into the furniture that leaves the center open is an option. Plan a small portable cold box under the bridge.

Tony G

08-03-2006, 09:45 AM

Ebb

Now I just have to take a break from work(indentured servency) to sound off. But don't expect me to bathe you in compliments. No sir! This is the level of work and craftsmanship we expect from you by now.

:eek:

Get real, me...

Nice...very nice. These hulls really do take a wood toerail well. But the scuppers! Schwing!!! 'Don't recall you mentioning anything about cut-out scuppers in the past. Hurry up and launch so we can see how they work. I could go fer a set on 113.

You, sir, have a fine eye for lines. I'm talkin' about your windscreen. I knew you had something cool up your sleeve from your last email. Although, I thought it would be mostly polycarbonate, kinda like the Halberg-Rassey. I do like your idea better on a boat this size. The way I figure, you've got the hard part out of the way. Now it's just some simple bows and misc. hardware. Yeah, right. Who am I kidding? Nothing seems to be 'simple' with Ebb.

Is your old sliding hatch the removable seahood now? Do you have plans for a panel type that attaches to the 'rails'?

Galley. I remember when you replied to one of my postings with, "welcome to the how am I gonna fit it all in here club." Beats me! Living aboard a 26 footer is definitely a singles kinda thing. Galley or crew, galley or crew, galley or crew....I guess the key is to make use of every square inch of boat. Deck, cabin top, fore deck, c-pit, everything. I'm already looking for a 40 footer that will still be too small. But, at least then you can go to oposite ends of the boat to blow off steam :D

The paint is a minor PIA. Don't even factor that in.

How about a rigging update. Any new thoughts on that can of worms?

Who loves ya, Baby.

Tony G