Commander 93 - Unholey

[commander93]

Hi Everyone,

I'm the proud new owner of "Unholey" Pearson Commander Hull #93. I picked this up in February with no mast for $800 in Bermuda. I have no experience sailing but went in on it with a long-time sailor so I could learn the ropes. While I'm clueless when it comes to sailing I'm pretty good with my hands so hoping to get this baby in the water soon.

Background to the name - last year it came off its mooring and the transom was used as a battering ram in to the side of the rocks and had a nice big hole in it. After some serious fibreglassing she floated again and became known as Unholey. No without a mast and being Canadian I was thinking No-mast-EH?

I've done some minor stuff to it (refinished some of hte wood) and put some paint on the cabin and cockpit. See before and after pictures.

Now the next step is to do the whole mast replacement with no experience with rigging, this should be fun!

My pictures are apparently too big to post here but I'll figure it out.

[Ariel 109]

Welcome Unholey!

Bermuda, pretty cool. How did you end up there? How did your boat end up there? Do you hang out with Mike Bloomberg on weekends?

Replacing the mast is going to be a challenge. I'm sure everyone here is interested in trying to help you. What parts of the Commander standing rigging do you have and are going to try and use, sails, boom, etc....?

But first lets see some pictures! You can re-size them free on-line using a service like http://photobucket.com/ .

Ben

[ebb]

[this was a repeat of the next post]

GOOD LUCK!!!

[ebb]

Yes,, finding a mast is going to take some luck.
Maybe the same kind of luck ole 93 seems to have in finding the likes of you and your partrner.

I think shipping a mast from the states is out of the question.
So imco you have to search in the islands. There must be plenty of marinas.
Maybe there are boats being parted out, masts and rigging are often saved. There may be a collection
of them in the back of the lot anywhere they repair boats.

The mast is a approx 3.5 X 6 oval 1/8" wall almag extrusion about 30' long. Weighs about 100lbs. A substantial extrusion.
Pearson used the same extrusion imco on a number of their models. Notably the Pearson Triton. You might consider the same by finding a longer mast and cutting it to length.
Keep in mind where the spreaders are in the substitute, maybe they can be used also.

It's easy enough to fabricate a mast base. But the masthead fitting is also a challenge you have to put into your calculations.
My A-338 had a new one professionally fabricated by a spar maker out of aluminum $$$.
The discussion pages here will help you get a visual fix on what is needed. You need be patient with the SEARCH feature.
I sometimes have had better luck using google to find something in our archives here.

Any sail rags in Bermuda? Another place to look and find phone numbers.

GOOD LUCK!!!

[carl291]

Welcome UNHOLEY!! I have a source for used mast, sail and etc. in Georgia. Many containers move out of Savannah GA and Jacksonville FL to the islands. You may have to beat feet to find a business in Bermuda that would let your mast hop a ride from GA to Bermuda. I think if you could something local you would dollars ahead. The Ariel / Commander carry a hefty mast for a 26ft boat so even if you found a slightly smaller extrusion you would be fine, it makes little difference to a rigger what the length of new wire is, the expense really is the fittings and labor. When making the new rigging be sure to record the lengths so you will have a record since it may end up being a custom rig. With the price of scrap metal up I would began searching in earnest for a replacement as the supply for used is shrinking. Many yards are cleaning up their old junk since the price is up.
How does the rudder look since I assume it took a beating as well, may be a good time to inspect the shaft, pins and bolts, as well the fiberglass tube.

[commander93]

Looks like I've found a replacement mast. Measures 29 feet 10 inches (without the masthead/mast step) with a cross section of 5 inches by 3 1/4 inches. I think its a bit light but we're only doing some light crusing with the thing so we're hoping it will work and comes for the low low price of free as well. I've attached some pictures of the work so far. The rudder looked to be in good shape, had one of my welder friends refab the tiller base. The mast comes with the masthead and maststep.

I've sent all the measurements in to riggingonly.com and they said they'll work on a quote for me. I've asked my mathematician friend to calculate what the proper spreader length should be and he said I could use the old ones on there as they pretty well bisect the angle for the upper shroud to where the spreader attaches and goes to the deck which is I think the most important part. Its just missing the spreader bracket/base so I'm trying to figure out where to get one of those made/bought. I'll post pictures of the mast/spreaders.

http://s1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd477/andrewrosswhite/

Update coming soon! At work so trying to make this quick :)

[carl291]

FREE is GOOD !!

[commander93]

Today I spent most of the day trying to put together a shopping list for the standing rigging. I imagine this would be a lot quicker for a seasoned sailor who knows what everything is called :). But I'm definitely making progress after reading a lot of the forums. I'm assuming that Riggingonly.com or westmarine.com will end up coming up with the same shopping list but I just wanted to research what I needed and why (which eventually led me to saving money by realising what a Sta-lok terminal is and that it can be reused).

In the interest of saving money there were some old Sta-Lok fittings that I'm positive I can reuse (they all have a 3/8th pin diameter and have 3/16ths wire). Unfortunately took the measurements of the wire and although it looks brand new its a bit too short for my purposes, I'm assuming the boat the mast came off of didn't have as high of a cabin as the Commander has but seems to be short by a few feet. But atleast I can save some money on using some of the old turnbuckles and sta-lok eye and fork terminals. Can also cut down some of the old upper shrouds and use them as lowers and may get lucky enough to use the old backstay wires for the forestay (I think just barely long enough).

I went to a few boat yards but haven't been able to locate a pair of spreader bases or spreaders themselves. I've had a look at Mephisto Cat's posts (his gallery specificlly #87 & 88 I think) and that's exactly what I need (even a little bit less complicated because the the mast sides don't have the curve). I've searched all over the forums but couldn't find anything in regards to the length or diameter of the spreaders. I know that the proper length will depend on the height of the mast but I've had a friend do the math and he said that even 2-4 inches won't make a huge difference in terms of bisecting the angle (a change of no more than +/- 2 degrees) where the outer shroud connects to the spreader so recommended just using the length of what was used on other Commanders. I'm not sure if you could point me in the direction of the post that goes over the spreader lengths/diameters? Or even better if you could point me to a place to get replacement base/spreaders. Or would you recommend me trying to find a welder on the island to do this for me?

I've uploaded some photos of the mast/mast step/masthead on photobucket (still haven't figured out how to shrink the size of the photos so I can post here

http://s1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd477/andrewrosswhite/?action=view&current=topofmast2.jpg

Wish me luck on my search for spreaders! Night everybody!

[Ariel 109]

Nice looking boat! Even without her original rig she seems a good find. Your new mast surely will work out for you. Looks like you will be sailing soon.

To post a photo from Photobucket copy and paste the IMG code from the "Share this Photo" box on Photobucket. Here, I give it a try.

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd477/andrewrosswhite/IMG_1296.jpg

[carl291]

Commander 93, That is a pretty hefty looking mast, I'm sure it will be plenty strong. The spreader brackets are really no big deal. If you have the spreaders which are only aluminum pipe your halfway there. Take them to a welding shop and have them make a socket type tube that the pipe will slip into about 3 inches long would be good, have that welded to some flat stock with ears on it so that it can be thru bolted to your mast and your done. Of course drill a hole to pin the pipe in the socket. 1/4" plate would be plenty and .125 wall pipe for the socket piece. Have them made from stainless steel. You might try searching spreaders or spreader bases here, someone made a nice set from stainless here, try Ariel 109 thread, Also try Rico thread I think he did this as well, also think about using a sleeve to put into the mast to keep it from crushing when you tighten the bolts as well as pressure that the spreaders will put on the flat sided mast, also done on this site In the photo posted that appears to be a Triton your "parked" next to, that is the basic design on that boat. If the measure would make you feel better I have two mast down that I can pull measurements for you if needed.
As a note shrouds and stays aren't really a place to cut corners on, one bad and you risk the whole rig in the drink. Reuse of ends are fine if they check out good but on the cable that is used for who knows how long I would replace all of it. it's money well spent IMHO. Cheers

[carl291]

overall spreader length is: 33.25" X 1.25" Aluminum pipe .125 wall. spreader base has a 2" socket for the pipe. spr. base is 6" x 3" and uses 1/2" bolts to mount. The mast is 30 feet and the spreader height is 14 feet

[commander93]

Thank you so much carl291! Greatly greatly appreciated, will do up some drawings and get those bad boys fabricated up, hopefully sailing soon enough!

[Rico]

Hey 93 - Welcome to the board...

Great job so far!

I'm glad Carl beat me to the mast / spreader dimensions... And it all sounds familiar! He is also right on with his insight into the brackets. If you can do Stainless great - but welded aluminum plate / tube should be more than adecquate - much better than the original aluminum CASTINGS...

The spreader pipe can be simple off-the-shelf material. There is no need for anything fancy. (You'll be better off if you paint it...) Another bit you'll need is to do something at the ends in order to secure the wire (but allow for a bit of up/down movement) a short plug of aluminum (as original) or hard plastic rod to plug the end and shaped for the purpose will be fine.

As far as the spreader brackets - you can fabricate some locally (probably cheaper), or look here for some castings (Currently listed at $68 each):
http://www.drmarine.com/products.asp?cat=431
Ph 508 644-3001

With the original stout mast extrusion there have been no issues with mast weakness at the attachment points. Depending on how light your extrusion is may want to include a compression sleeve at least at the lower bracket bolt where the lower shouds are bolted... But having looked at your pictures - it seems that you should be fine...

Best of luck!

[commander93]

Thanks Rico - I'm sure I'll never get as far as you did with your beauty, but I'm happy with where she's at right now. I'm just going over the math for the spreader lengths and just have a question on the concept of how the upper shrouds come down to the chainplate from the spreader.

If I were to drop a plumb line from the end of the spreader to the deck (based on the math I've done) there would be about 5 3/4" distance from where the plumb hits the deck to the centre of the upper shroud chainplate attached to the deck. Does that sound about right?

The reason I ask is because based on the research I've done they say the angle above and below the end of the spreader should be the same but if I use the 33.25" spreaders that means the angle above the spreader is 79 degrees and the angle below is about 92 degrees.

When you look at your upper shroud coming down from the edge of the spreader to the deck does it angle slightly outwards when it meets the deck. If that's the case then I think I'll just go with 33.25"? I'm not sure if I'm over thinking this (I'm sure I am :) ). Thanks again to you both for all your help. I think after I sort the length I won't be bothering you all anymore!

[Rico]

No bother with the questions... Sometimes it is that last question that you almost did NOT ask which saves you the biggest hedaches!

If I were to drop a plumb line from the end of the spreader to the deck (based on the math I've done) there would be about 5 3/4" distance from where the plumb hits the deck to the centre of the upper shroud chainplate attached to the deck. Does that sound about right?

Sounds right... (I think...) - The upper shrouds are 'almost' vertical below the spreaders with the end of the spreaders being INBOARD of the toe rail. I'd say that your 92 degree angle between the horizontal spreader and the shroud as it goes to the deck would look about right... but we need to be thinking about the same angles - and we may not be...

Consistent with the above; If you measured the angle from a horizontal surface (imaginary) on deck, the wire would make an 88 deg angle as it rose (getting closer) to the tip of the spreader...

I make the distinction because I think I understand you up to the point where you say: When you look at your upper shroud coming down from the edge of the spreader to the deck does it angle slightly outwards when it meets the deck.
To that I'd say: no. It angles inwards slightly towards the mast top as it rises... Does this make sense?

Anyway - maybe thi picture will help... ?


Note that the angle between the spreader as it heads to the masthead is definitely much more acute (has to be) as the shroud attaches to the mast iself... I do not see how these could be the same. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Frenna]

It sounds from the angles you are describing that perhaps you are measuring the angle between the spreader and the mast above and below the spreader. Sorry in advance if this is the wrong assumption, but those angles are pretty divergent. The angle that is supposed to be the same above and below the spreader is the angle between the spreader and the shroud.

The intent is to prevent a reaction force that attempts to push the spreader up or down, since the firmness of the connection between shroud and spreader tip is tenuous at best. It also prevents putting the spreader under bending strain, when it should be loaded only in compression. I think the angle of the spreader bracket is really only a guide to get things set up.

Example: if the spreader is set dead horizontal, the smaller angle between shroud and spreader above the spreader tends to push the spreader down. If it slips too far, the shroud goes slack with possibly disastrous results.

So lay out the geometry bases on a scale drawing or mathematical calculations taking into consideration the width at the base, height of the mast, length of the spreader and height of the spreader. For those fixed pieces of information the variable will be the angle of the spreader to the mast, which is what it is, and will NOT be the same above and below the spreader. Of course any of the above bits of data can be varied to change the outcome, but the primary ones you COULD change if you already have the boat and mast (which you do) are the length of the spreader, height of the spreaders from deck, and spreader angle.

I gather your mast is slightly different than original in at least one or 2 of above (length, width of mast section, height of spreader mount), but if it is any help, I have my rig down on various parts of my property, so I could give you the dimesions of the above if needed (such as spreader length or attachment height).

I still have one of my original spreader brackets (cracked) and a replacement that was made from non or cheap stainless about 25 or 30 years ago. Very heavy, but caused some corrosion on the mast underneath. I would like to have some new ones welded up out of heavy aluminum of the same type as the mast, and perhaps annodized, though I may make due with a set of the available aftermarket cast ones which I found online somewhere.

The spreader are just heavy round aluminum tubes Suprisingly thick walls, which turned out to be good, since one of the metal halyards has been rubbing through it for may years prior to my getting hold of her. If it had been as thin as it could have been, it surely would have worn right through.

As a non-sequitor of sorts, I exprience my first dismasting on a sailboat last year, on my brother in law's wooden catboat. It was an unstayed wooden mast of several decades vintage, glued up, but punky at the core. Very dramatic, but nobody was injured. Luckily no kids on board at the time, just 3 able and resourceful friends. We managed to retrieve it in tow to Cuttyhunk island, where it was quickly adopted by a local fisherman as a flagpole. We just wanted to avoid creating a hazard to navigation. Last time I was on the boat it was sporting a very stout metal mast, which I appreciated when reefing the big gaff sail.

And I am not really an expert, so if any other members of the group have a differing opinion, please advise.....

-Frank

[Frenna]

Also, just noticed the above picture of Mephisto Cat. Love the Cat, but the starboard spreader is doing exactly what I was talking about in my reply, being almost horizontal. The spreaders are very strong on these boats, and the brackets are stiffer than they need to be. On some sailboats they actually have a pivot at the mast to allow the angle to adjust, but the A/C brackets angles are fixed. That is what is keeping the Mephisto Cat's rig up, but I THINK those spreaders should be pointing up several degrees more.

I will try to find a picture to save me the next thousand words. I know I have seen a diagram somewhere.

[Frenna]

Bingo, this is what I was looking for.7373

The associated text from the image:
<TABLE summary="Position photo and caption" cellPadding=10 width="90%" align=center><TBODY><TR><TD>FIG. 8-1 I - Spreaders should not be "cocked" or canted from each other. They should be exactly opposite each other to counteract equally the forces imparted to them. When spreaders are raked, ideally Angle "A" should be equal to Angle "B", while Angle "C" and Angle "D" must be equal.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<HR width="70%">and the source:
http://www.glen-l.com/free-book/rigging-small-sailboats-8.html

[carl291]

Rico, I'm glad that question is directed to you, I don't see how the angle could be the same as well, unless the shrouds were bolted to the base of the mast.

[Frenna]

The way the angles are the same is by having the spreaders point upwards until they are the same.

Just think of the spreaders as the arms of a christian reaching upward and saying "praise the lord" or something along those lines. If the arms are pointing DOWN, then the praise is going in the direction of the other place.....and we don't want THAT.

[Rico]

Ahhh... Hence the discrepancy!

Yes - this is indeed a difference in the arguments... - In order to have the spreaders in absolute compression (zero bending moment) you do need to bisect the angle that the shroud makes with the spreader... This would be the ideal.

Just as 'ideally' a boat's chainplates would match the angle of the shrouds - they are often designed like that - but they rarely do...

In most production boats (just looked at some pictures of Cals, Catalinas, a Crealock, Moores, etc. ) you'll see that the spreaders are horizontal. seems Mr. Alberg and many other boat designers (likely urged on by the manufacturers...) have gone this route of horizontal spreaders. Even when the rig incorporates swept-back spreaders, they tend to stay horizontal.

The resulting bit of bending moment is simply accounted for by the spreader's resistance to bending...

My comments above assumes a spreader at 90 degs to the mast. Straight and plainly horizontal as originally produced by Pearson for the Ariel or Commander & other boats.

Frenna- If you note on the picture, the masts (The Mephisto Cat's & the other boat's) are not parallel to each other - likely due to water movement, or the boats may not be sitting perfectly on their lines (they rarely do!). It looks like the spreaders are a bit tweaked - but in reality they are straight. At least they were when I climbed up my mast for a pre-singlehanded-race inspection last weekend!

Incidentally- I hit a bird (actually the bird hit me!) and part of my incentive to climb up was to un-tweak my windex!

[Frenna]

I do see what you mean on the photo of Mephisto Cat, the spreaders do seem perpendicular to the mast now that I am focusing on it.

I do wonder, though, if Alberg really intended them to be truly horizontal. I don't have the drawings to verify, but I would have thought one of his ilk would not have stood for such heresy, even from a paying client. Perhaps there was a bit of Pearson-eering going on, along the lines of the keel voids.

Just to verify, I did schlep up to my shed where my spreader bracket is sitting on a shelf (man, I gotta clean up that shed) and my original cast aluminum bracket is in fact made with a 2 degree pitch upward. (43 degrees above, 47 degrees below) However, my old fabricated replacement is horizontal. I even seem to recall the previous owner commenting on how that one had a bit of a "droop", which he felt it should not.

I suspect that even the 2 degree angle is less than it should be, but I have not done the math (geometry?) on it to verify.

When I get around to making new ones, I will get that right.

Also, though the spreader itself seems to be bullet proof oversized extrusion, the brackets take the real bending load, and there have been many failures of that part on these boats, suggesting that the angles should be revised for the future.
I'm not normally such a perfectionist, but when it comes to big heavy things over my head (and my crew's heads) I like to be fussy. Besides its all part of sailing lore, no?
7376

[commander93]

Wow looks like I've started a big discussion here. Thank you all for taking the time to discuss, Freena you've just confirmed my understanding, the angles in my initial post was the angle from the spreader to the shroud using a spreader length of 33 1/4. I consider my spreader height fixed (centre of hole is 15ft 2 inches) as there is currently a throughhole and I don't want to go and drill two more holes as I'm sure more holes in the mast reduces the structural integrity more than having spreaders at angles that don't exactly bisect. So using the following measurements:
Mast length 357.25" (29ft 9 1/4 inches)
Spreader height 182" (15ft 2 inches)
Edge of mast to centre of chainplate (at level) 37.625"
Spreader length 33.25" (plus probably about 1/4 inch of the thickness of the spreader base but I imagine the effect on the angles would be negligable)
Height of mast base in relation to the deck 21.25"
Assuming a perpendicular spreader to the mast that means that if you were to drop a plumb line from the edge of the spreader to the deck there would be about 4.375" (37.625 - 33.25) distance from where the plumb hits the deck to where it meets the centre of the hole.
Using good old trig to determine the angles between the spreader and the shroud gives about 91 degrees below the spreader and 79 degrees above the spreader. Even moving the spreader height down a foot (as I believe most of the commanders existing mast bases are) doesn't change the angles that drastically (maybe 1-2 degrees) and you're still left with a disparity in angles. Also changing the spreader length by 4-5 inches doesn't do much either (still assuming a perpendicular spreaders to the mast).
So this is where having the spreaders having a 5 degree upward angle from the horizontal starts to change it...but again not drastically enough to make the angles bisect. I've put the equation to a few physics and math forums to basically find the spreader length assuming a 5 degree upward angle and according to them changing the length by a foot doesn't change the angles that much.
So my initial conclusion was to use whatever spreader lengths were currently on the Commander, put them at perpendicular to the mast and make the angle below the spreader at 90 degrees to atleast take some of the tension off. And just looking at most sailboats out there I can easily tell that most of them aren't bisecting the angle. Given this will be a simple cruising and not pushing it hard I'm hoping the design will hold up (atleast for the year and a half that I'm on the island :) ).
But if you think I'm playing with fire I'll revise....thoughts?

[ebb]

Spreader length should not be longer than designed because they'll interfere with your foresails.

Shroud angle over the spreader should be the same above and below spreader to equalize
pressure on the spreaders, on the wire, and on the attachments.
Equal angles is so totally accepted as correct that anything else looks hokey or in need of adjustment.
Some may point out that you can't tune your rig with the angle over the spreaders not equalized.

Good luck, tho!

[Frenna]

Ebb is right on all counts, and made it short and sweet too!

Commander 93, it seems like you are definately clear on the concept and the geometry. I agree there is no reason to compromise the mast by adding extra big holes, even though their impact that close the spreader would likely be minimal, they are still ugly holes.

The challenge you are facing is that your spreader height is a bit higher than standard (just measured mine at 14' mast base to spreader attachment centerline) and your mast is small bit shorter, but the real challenge is that the typical commander spreader does not have as much up angle as it really should, either by design or production. It works because the spreaders take it, but for no good reason.

In the older days of wood spars and spreaders it was impractical to expect the spreader to support bending loads, so they tend to be much closer to the ideal.

I will be making my new ones with equal angles too - why not?

Also, 5-7 degrees of lift, even more if necessary, seems fine to me. Expected, really.

Here is a picture of my boat in the water before I purchased her. The port spreader is up 2 degrees, the starboard is perpendicular to the mast. As you can see it is pretty darned hard to even notice it. 5, 7, even 10 degrees up would just look appropriate to my eye. Go look at some boats in the water with wooden masts and spreaders, I bet you will see what I am talking about.



7377


Here is another web image of the ideal, and as you can see the upward angle is quite noticable, I would guess at least 7 degrees:


7378
it came from here:
http://www.answers.com/topic/spreaders (some good text to support it)

I agree that extending the spreader length starts to interfere with the headsails, and you have to go awfully far to change the angle much.

Or to simplify, I suppose if the 2 degree original bases work, a 5 degree one should be better without the need to get TOO acurate.

Also, it is worth noting that the original spreader sockets, though cast and prone to failure eventually, are fairly hefty in proportion, and heavily through bolted across the mast, so they really can take a bit of bending load (for a while). If you were for some reason going with anything wimpier, the angles become more critical. The heavy bolting (one below, one above the spreader) is nice.

Look forward to hearing what you come up with for a spreader support, and seeing some pictures of whatever angle you decide on.

[Frenna]

Firstly, here is a link to an old spreader socket failure discussion, complete with pictures to justify why the original pearson solution is somewhat flawed:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?452-Spreader-Socket-Broken

And here is a link to a viable replacement, which seems not to be the ideal angle, but is available and expedient, at $68.00 bucks a piece. Not being pre-drilled, you may be able to easily adapt it to your current mast holes. (original holes are half inch diameter)

http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=P26%2D200
Used on many Pearson masts! 3"x6" Cast Aluminum

[commander93]

Ok this all makes sense and the thought of my spreader bases falling apart makes me extremely nervous, especially for someone who's never sailed before. I've attached an image of drawings I can up with last night. (let me know if that works)

The only thing I imagine I'll need to do now is determine the degree of the upward angle of the spreader brackets and should be good to go. My guess is 10 degrees at a minimum just based on my spreader height being a good foot heigher than most other Pearsons. Or do you think I should just drill two new holes about a foot down then determine the spreader angle from that point?

Hopefully this thing will be even stronger than the original off the line!

[ebb]

I don't know if the masts are EXACTLY the same on Commander and Ariel.
A-338's mast is in the driveway so I went out with a tape to add some numbers here.
The bracket holes in the mast are 4" center to center.
Don't know what happened to the brackets, but they were a mess.
The holes are indeed 1/2" as no compression tube was put in by Pearson.
It is arguable whether they are needed.
The lower hole is 13' 10" from the bottom of the mast extrusion.
Add a little more for the original maststep casting. It flanged under the mast maybe 1/4" (?not sure)
This lower bolt holds the tangs for the four lower shrouds strung on the bolt.
This bolt does a lot of work.

Can't tell if the pictured cast aluminum bracket is a replacement for the original.
Imco we ought to keep that 4" spread between the 1/2" bolts going thru the mast.

Can't make out if the bracket socket is at an angle for the spreader tubes on our boats.
If not, or if the angle is too small I might fill the socket with thickened epoxy,
let it set and then redrill the hole at the correct angle.

Imco the bracket base should fit the radius of the mast, It should be a match so that
water and dirt doesn't get behind the sealant/caulk and a plastic membrane that should also be included.

My original cast brackets were also cracked. The lower holes in the mast slightly egg shaped.
I believe this happened beause the lower 1/2" bolt is being pulled down by the shrouds. This may have actually pulled the bracket apart!
Being a purist, my solution would be to put the lower bolt in a compression TUBE and have that tube drilled exactly to size thru the mast. It would provide a larger bearing surface in the hole. That tube is more "quiet" than the bolt that goes thru it.
And also allows better loading of the tangs on the bolt. You could actually tighten the nut on the bolt without fear of distorting the mast.
In case there is any confusion, the compression tube is flush with the outside surface of the mast. There have been guys on forums trying to figure out how to squirrel the tube up inside the mast!

RICO has beautiful close-ups of this upgrade on his Gallery thread.
RICO is a genius and does everthing right!!!!

On page 146 in the Association Manual there is a line drawing of Ariel sail dimensions.
There is a schematic of the mast next to it showing one spreader that looks like spreader position splits the shroud angle. J.L.Lee has signed the drawing.
Could take a school protractor and get the angle.

[commander93]

I think using a 10 degree upward from horizontal angle gives 89 degrees above and 91 degrees below (very rough estimate). This is very rough math and I imagine there's a few variables I'm not considering that may make this even out so I imagine that 10 degrees is the magic number. Time to get these puppies made!

Thank you all again for your help! Saved me a ton of time!

[Frenna]

I checked out your drawing. Looks about right, but I might suggest the following adjustments:

The socket tube is a bit thin on your drawing. Original is solid 3/16", but then again it is a fragile casting. Good quality extrusion might do with less.

It looks like you are indicating a 3/8" diameter hole through the socket and spreader to make a connection. The original does have a small pin to keep the spreader from falling out, but it is tiny. 1/8" is all. Some kind of tinky metal pin drifted in with friction if I recall. I would not be tempted to drill a big hole, since there should normally be quite a bit of pressure holding the spreader tube into the socket anyway. Its really just to help with mast stepping etc.

Double check your spreader tube and socket tube diameters. If somebody is welding it up, you should be able to find available sizes that nest nicely.

Another thing to consider in that selection is the availability of a fitting for the shroud end of the spreader. Original is a casting that sits inside the spreader and has a groove to receive the shroud and a couple holes for seizing wire. If you can find a readily available fitting online that fits a certain size tube, that would be a good guide.

And yes, the spreader base should fit well to the mast. If your mast has much curvature as the originals do, it will be necessary to accomodate that in the design or find a way to add something underneath, which I would discourage. Perhaps the base plate could be formed into the desired radius before attaching the socket tube, or ground out afterwards.

So much effort for one little part, to be sure, but I suppose we all hope to be able to get our cash back on these thought investments when the weather is stinky and are we are not frantic with fear of the rig coming down!

Or so we hope......

[commander93]

Perfect, I'll revise the socket to be 1/4" and do the same for the pin. Do you have any pictures of what the end of the spreader would look like that receives and seizes the wire? That's one part I wasn't sure of when I drew up the plans because all the ends have spreader boots on them and i can't see anything.

In terms of the spreader base fitting well to the mast i didn't have as much to worry about since a 2 inch section of the mast is completely flat (attached a tracing of the mast) so only about 1/2" of each side of the spreader base would need to be curved.

[Ariel 109]

Spreader tips at Rig Rite.

http://www.rigrite.com/Spars/Rig-Rite_Spars/RigRite_Spreaders/1.5OD_Spreaders.html

Dwyer does sell a 1.5 OD spreader with a tip for only $62.65, seems not a bad deal.

http://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=26&familyName=Spreaders+%26+Brackets+%28Round%29

[commander93]

So I thought I'd take some time and give a bit of a background to myself. I come from a landlocked Province (Canadian) and have about 2 hours of experience on any sort of body of water. I moved to Bermuda with my new wife about 6 months ago and will be here for about another year and a half. One of the ways they introduce you to the island (they want to the change the national sport to sailing) is by taking you out sailing and it was such an incredible experience.

I looked in to sailing lessons and they were about $1,200. Then along came a friend who said he had found 'Unholey' for $800 and I thought "Hey why pay $1,000 for lessons" when I can own a boat and learn to sail (win-win right!). Also it would get me away from my day job (Chartered Accountant) and let me get my hands dirty.

The only issue is the complete lack of competition and the speed of everything. There's two riggers on the entire island - one quoted us $6,500 to get the job done and we're still waiting to hear back from the other and that was 2 months ago...its almost like they don't want our money. Customer service is non-existent.

I kind of felt helpless not knowing sailing and now that its 80 degrees out all I wanted to do was go out on the water and make this island feel a lot bigger. So I decided to put the mast stepping in to my own hands. Thankfully I came across this site and it has been my saving grace. My plan is to order everything myself, step the mast and hire the riggers to do the measuring when its stepped and tune the rig. Basically trying to get as minimal involvement as I'm positive nothing would get done if it was in their hands. We even considered flying in a rigger from Florida/New York (anybody interested :)) to help step the mast and give us a hand with the measurements/tuning. May still end up doing that.

Well that's my story - my goal is to get everything up and running by May 14th when my parents come down for a visit...in this country I'm wondering if that's possible. Off to New York for the long weekend. Happy Easter everybody!

[Frenna]

Commander 93,

The background is helpful. Man, I don't want to seem like a downer, but getting her rigged and seaworthy is a bit daunting on a tight schedule and/or budget. Here are my 2 cents:

A sailboat rig looks simple enough standing on a dock, but actually getting one rigged when you don't already have the rig is a surprising bit of work even without the perfectionist digressions of our spreader angle discussion. Every bit of hardware needs to be figured out, selected, procured. You need to make a comprehensive checklist, and work it all out. I do not recall if you have sails or not, or if that is another challenge. Also not sure if the mast/boom you have is close enough to the typical ariel/commander to use second hand stuff that many of us may have cluttering up our garages.

Given a boat unrigged, with all the necessary gear that came off her just needing to go back on, it could be done in as little as a day or a weekend.

Having to figure it all out and make it fit and work, a good deal longer.

And then there is the expense.

The cheapest way by far to get into sailing is to pick up a workable but not too pretty or terribly well maintained but complete boat. One that can be used immediately with only critical upgrades is ideal, then fix up as needed.

#93 seems cheap at $800.00, but the cost of a proper rig and sails could run thousands more. If all all new, many many thousands. If second hand scrounged, maybe just 1 or 2. That said, I have made the mistake in my youth of using second hand standing rigging that looked "perfectly good" to replace some old stuff on my first "big" boat (30'), and had a turnbuckle break AT THE DOCK. Never again. My "new" commander #231 is still in the driveway waiting for me to give her a heavy going over, including all new standing rigging, since hers is several decades old and she was on a mooring that whole time, rocking and swaying.

I digress.

If you have a few thousand dollars to dedicate to this cause, (lets say 2 thousand at a minimum) and a LOT of free time -or- quite a few thousand dollars to farm out the work, by all means go for it. The commander is a good boat, should be capable of teaching you a lot of lessons without killing or bankrupting you.

If the above is NOT the case, I would strongly advise the following, if viable in your location: ditch the commander to a worthy candidate and find a good cheap used beachable racing/sailing dinghy. That is the best way to learn how to sail anyway, and you can usually find them pretty cheap.

And as I suppose many in this group will agree, there is no way to beat the pleasure per dollar that a SMALL sailboat provides.

I grew up sailing on a sunfish, and I STILL go out on one on Barnegat bay when I am there in the summer, and there is still no greater pleasure than smashing around in a chop on a 200 pound piece of fiberglass on a hot windy summer afternoon.

Not that boat work and rigging cannot be fun, but if I were in your shoes, I would focus on water time before yard time.

That said, I'm sure there are many here, myself included, who will be happy to help get you through the process with 93, if it continues to make sense.

I might start with these guys, though I have no actual experience with them yet, I am thinking about them for my rigging replacement. May be cheaper/faster/more useful than going local if what you say about the local situation is accurate. Worth checking out, anyway, they should be able to work up what you need from dimensions?

http://www.riggingonly.com/

Best of luck. Wish I were in a warm place like you!

[commander93]

I agree that it has been a bit if a headache to try and figure out the rigging situation but I believe I'm on the right track. Looking at what I currently have I've put together a nice big shopping list. I figure it will cost about 2 grand with all new standing rigging which is what I expected. Budget isn't a huge issue and wouldn't mind dropping more than that and know I'll be spending more to get all new running rigging as well. Sails we have so not an issue there and we were just given a nearly new roller furller that we can use with the existing jib.

I've had a look at what we currently have and made the following shopping list:

Spreader/spreader bases/compression post and related hardware
Forstay (36 feet 3/16" 316 SS)
Backstay (39 feet 3/16 316 SS)
Upper shroud x 2 (34 feet 3/16" 316 SS)
Lower shroud x 4 (21 feet 3/16" 316 SS)

4 open body turnbuckles (3/8 pin diameter, 3/16 wire, jaw toggle ends)
4 jaw terminals Sta-lok (3/8 pin 3/16 wire)
6 Sta-lok eye terminals (3/8 pin 3/16 wire)
10 wedges for existing Sta-lok terminals
2 x triangle plate for lower shrouds (1/2 one hole and 3/8 for other 2 holes) or alternatively could get 4 tangs.
Eye jaw toggle for masthead backstay (3/8 pin on jaw and 5/16 for connection to masthead)
4 tangs for upper shrouds
4 turnbuckles (1 end jaw toggle 3/8 pin and other eye for existing 4 stalok jaw terminals 3/8 eye end)
Currently have 6 eye stalok terminals which can be reused.

All pin diameters on the pearsons chainplates measure 3/8 inch.

Put together this list and used riggingonly.com And price came out to about 1700.

My wire measurements are probably 3 feet longer than they need to be but I'd rather have longer than shorter and do a trial mast step and measure the wires when it's up and take them to a rigger to get cut.

Also would hire the rigger for a few hours to help us step theist for the initial measuring and after the ends are terminated to tune the rig once everything is final and connected.

Theres other hardware that I haven't listed for simplicity but have taken in to account(ie clevis and cotter pins and the various nuts and bolts needed). As well I'm getting the backstay chainplate fabricated from a friend in Canada).

I think I've thought of everything I need but if there's any glaring things missing let me know. Hope everyone is having a great long weekend!

Freena I appreciate your honesty about having a look for another rig entirely and we have definitely considered that option. My timeline is ideal but I'm also realistic to the fact that it won't get done before they come down. Money isn't a real issue it's a tax free jurisdiction and we get paid well down here its mores the principal of paying a guy 200 just to get a quote and then he only gives a ballpark of between 5500/6500 and no real quote on what that includes, just seemed shady and lesson learned! But here's hoping we can pull this off!

[mbd]

You've probably already done this, but just in case: with a "new" non-standard rig, you may want to measure your existing sails to make sure they are going to fit...

Welcome aboard!

[Frenna]

Sounds about right,

You seem to have a good understanding of what is involved and a realistic budget based on that, so - cool - should be a good project!

The big expensive hassle, as you have already figured out, is getting the standing rig up including all the associated bits. It might worth thinking about picking up an appropriate wire cutting tool for the 3/16" so you don't have to pull everything down to farm out the wire cutting. I agree with getting the extra wire lenght. Also keep in mind that there will be a bit of stretch in the intial rig tuning, so you will want to establish the length with the turnbuckles pretty well extend. I would think about 2/3 of the way extended, figuring that 1/3 of that will go away between the initial tensioning and parts wearing in to place. Just a guess, though, rigging only may have some online information to support that hunch.

The running rigging is pretty straightforward, just get enough extra length on all the lines.

For boats this size, and much larger too, I am a big fan of modern high-tech low-stretch line for halyards rather than the wire or wire/rope blend that these boats had originally. No real need to go with crazy high tech either. I have used New England Ropes "Stay-set-X", if it is still available, which is a parallel stranded dacron (rather than braided) in the core, and it is reasonable and durable. In a pinch I have used some old retired pieces to come-a-long a pickup out of a ditch. Good stuff, easy on the hands, just get a size that will fit through whatever sheaves the mast has, or blocks you provide if there are no sheaves.

Minimum running rigging list should look like this:
Main halyard
Jib halyard (unless roller furling, which varies by furler style)
Topping lift (supports the boom while raising sail, furling)
Outhaul on main sail
Main and jib sheets

To simplify, Stay-set-X for halyards, regular braided Stay-set for everything else.

There are alots of other bits and refinements, but that gets things going.

As to the hull, the following:
Check and/or replace all hose clamps on through hulls with ALL STAINLESS type clamps. If the sink still has a through hull drain, see what manner of connection it has to the through hull. Most of these boats don't have a proper seacock to close that in an emergency, and the sinks are pretty low on the waterline. If the boat were down more than 6 or 8 inches because swamping or something, water would come right up over the rim of the sink an "sink" the boat.

Check the mast support post for integrity at top and bottom to make sure there is a solid load path to the hull/ballast.

Check the bolts on the chainplates for corrosion damage. Perhaps pull a few to make sure.

I'm sure there is other stuff too, but those items are the standouts.

Looking forward to seeing a photo of her under sail this summer.....

[commander93]

Finally starting to get some stuff in - have placed most of my order from RiggingOnly.com as well as a few random bits from RigRite (thank you Ariel 109 for that lead). It was incredible, ordered it one day and received it the next, super fast shipping. See attached pictures. Thank you for the references!

Having trouble finding someone to fabricate the spreader bases/spreaders/compression posts and backstay chainplate. Called 13 welders - half didn't do aluminum welding, 4 didn't want to do it and the other 3 I gave drawings to for a quote but won't get back to me (seems to be a common thing on this island). Been 5 days but still nothing in terms of a quote (basically would pay them anything too).

Sent the drawings to RigRite.com last night to see if they would have a look and give me a quote - haven't heard anything back as of yet. I think I need to learn some patience :), but would be great to make some progress on the spreaders.

Hoping that the order for the other materials from riggingonly will be pretty quick but they've been awesome so far. More updates to come!

[commander93]

Does anybody want to venture a guess at what my first quote came back for the spreader bases/spreaders/compression posts?

Here's the email:

Andrew
I have only had a chance to review the drawings quickly. Apart from finding the exact pipe sizes specified there doesn’t seem to be and major difficulties. I can advise on recommended alternatives with regard to the pipe. I am away today for the weekend but for your information in the meantime based on the initial review I would say that the cost would be in the region of about $1200-$1500. Please contact me next week if you would like to pursue this further.
Best regards,
Stuart Lunn.

And here's my reply:
Hi Stuart,

That's alright - I can get an entire mast assembly/small sail boat for that price - but thank you. Was thinking more in the $200-$300 dollar range as that's what you can buy the peices on the internet for. Guess I'll be going that route.

Best regards,
Andrew

Probably a way too sassy response but was just shocked at the price - looking in to overseas welders now! Wish me luck!

[Ariel 109]

Andrew,

I would go with the Dwyer spreader DH2560. It's been anodized and comes with a spreader tip . The Dwyer DH 258 stainless spreader bracket looks like it might fit nicely on your new mast. The compression post issue is mute with this bracket, the load is transfered to the stiffer parts of your mast. I think the Dwyer spreaders and brackets will cost under $400.00. Hard to beat that price. You can saw the spreader down from 36" to whatever length you need with a hacksaw. Then drill a new hole through the aluminum spreader for the bracket bolt.

As far as a rear chainplate I'd buy a piece of bronze or stainless from http://www.mcmaster.com/ and make it myself. Not a very hard project, hacksaw, file and drill.



Ben

[commander93]

My box of goodies arrived on Tuesday have just been incredibly busy at work with a deadline so has taken a bit of focus away from doing any work on Unholey.

Riggingonly is a hell of an operation - by the time I ordered to the time I received was approximately 4 days. Unfortunately they sent me a couple of the wrong size eye terminals but they admitted their mistake put two in the mail free of charge (will pay for shipping here and for me to send the other ones back) and said if I send the ones they gave me back they'll give it to me free of charge. Classy organization and would recommend them to anybody. They were also half the price of WestMarine.

Unfortunately not much progress on the spreaders. Have a friend back home who said he would make them for a case of beer and send them down my way. Say its a lot better than the $1,500 quote I got here. Heading out to her tomorrow to "sail" her to castle harbour. If you've ever seen James Bond GoldenEye there's a mansion in the movie - that's in Bermuda and is nestled in one of the most gorgeous harbours I've ever seen. I'll take some pictures tomorrow and share.

We've also had an offer from a few different sailors who said they would help us step the mast. Hopefully in the water sailing by the end of May!

[commander93]

Good evening everyone, I had a quick question in regards to getting my jib and main halyards. If you look at the masthead sheaves it looks like its suppose to use a wire halyard, am I right in this assumption?

Also, I've tried doing a search on length of the main and jib halyards, topping lift, main and jib sheets and outhaul but haven't had any luck. Can anybody point me to any posts discussing this (including rope diameter to use). I'm thinking if my wire assumption is correct then I'll need a wire-to-rope halyard kit but just trying to figure out what sizes to use. If anybody could point me in the right direction that would be greatly appreciated.

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd477/andrewrosswhite/IMG_1358.jpg

[Ariel 109]

I'd guess this one.

http://www.apsltd.com/p-21126-wire-to-rope-halyd-18-516.aspx

You can give them a call, they're very helpful with questions. I ordered the lines for the Ariel's spinnaker from them, big help.

Ben

[commander93]

Anybody have any leads on sails for the Pearson with a non-standard mast :)? The jib we had is meant for a roller furling which we found out wouldn't work for us. And when we motored Unholey in to town we found out someone stole our main as well as some tools. Thankfully I had taken almost everything off the boat the week before.

Starting to learn that restoring the sailboat when you think you have things under control and in-hand doesn't end up happening unfortunately. Trying to find some J24 sailors around here who may have some extras jibs/main that we can maybe make work for us.

On the bright side we did get most of the stuff in that we need to step the mast.

[carl291]

Call Allen @ 77oh - 91to - 8oh86. He is located north of Atlanta GA and is a boat salvage dealer. You will have to have some measurements for him. Just saying it's for a J24 will not be helpful. I think he told me he has an inventory of 300 sails. I'm going there today for an Electra Jib and to pilfer around> Carl

[Frenna]

You might try these guys out of Florida:

http://www.usedsails.com/images/ast_logo.gif

http://www.usedsails.com/

I think they are the outfit I used to make a self tending jib for my 470.

All their inventory is listed by dimensions, price, and condition.

There are other used sail operations online too, just google "used sails".

Your should be able to figure out your critical dimensions easily enough. Also need to think about the fastening system (slugs, etc.)

[carl291]

Went to see Allen today, picked up a 4 step swing boarding ladder, 4 Danforth anchors 2 branded 2 spin offs,(12-16lb) a nice pair of coamings for an Electra, a small solar panel, 2 Perko main battery control switches,a 10 gal plastic water tank, a WC winch handle,a folding settee table, a handful of snap shackles, a pulpit with a nav light and six stanchons, a Victor Slocum book about his Dad, a hauser pipe for an anchor line, 6 dock fenders,3 new life jackets and a like new 150 genoa for.... $210, I got robbed, LOL. His sail inventory is no where near 300, more like 30 + from what I saw , I'm going back to measure what he has and buy spare sails for the Electras and the Ariel.
Sadly when I asked about sails for your boat he said if you wanted to come see him he would work with you but he has wasted too much time on trying to sell sails over the phone only to have the people back out after he has done all the foot work. If you can post some measurements I'll be back up there in about 3 weeks to measure what he has and hunt what you need if you can wait that long.

[mbd]

Nice haul! I would kill for a consignment shop like that around here. Wow...

[commander93]

Hey Carl, that's probably why when I left a message he didn't return my phone call, bad memories I guess. Thanks for checking up for me though!

The measurements I have are:

Jib:
Distance from base of mast to masthead = 29' 9"
Distance from centre of mast to forestay pin attachment = 9' 10"
So my guess in terms of a jib would be:

Luff = 29' max
Foot = 9' max - don't want to fly a geneoa just due to it being a non-standard mast and my spreaders are lower than on the original pearson so I'm not sure if they'd get in the way or not.

Main:
Distance of the boom is approximately 11 feet (I'll get more accurate measurements tonight).
Distance from where boom approximately attaches (although this can be adjusted) to the top of mast is 27' 3"

So my guess in terms of the sail dimensions would be:

Luff - 27' (based on the boom sitting up approximately 30 inches from the base of the mast and the overall mast height excluding mast head being 29' 9"). So if its shorter, probably better.
Foot - 11' I would say 10' to be on the safe side.

I may have to end up cutting the boom down as just thinking about it now I'm not sure if it will get in the way of the backstay. Based on that, to be safe I would say:

Luff - 25'
Foot - 9'

Freena - thanks for the reference - I'm waiting to hear back from them. Right now they don't have any used sails in stock based on my measurements, all of them are new. I actually found another good place called secondwindsails and based on my measurements and talking to the guy it looks like I could get a main and jib for 450 excluding shipping which I'd be more than happy to pay. He's just checking some things for me right now. Although based on Carl's haul I'm tempted to fly to the states just to talk to the guy, that's incredible....

[carl291]

Try calling after 5:00 Pm , he has a daytime job, weekends are the best time . Before I'd pay $450 for two sails used I'd wait for me to get back up there unless your totally rigged and ready to sail.I know I can beat that price by a huge margin. If I remember all that he said the sails are off a US Yachts 27, a Cal 25 various Hunters, Pearsons ,Catalinas all in the 23-29 ft range so surely he has something that will work. They are all off fresh water boats. Generally these are boats that get hauled out at the end of the season, set on the hard for a year or more and then the owners are shocked to find out they their boat has filled with rainwater and ruined. All the boats are keel less because that's the first thing he cuts off and sells for scrap. Then we vultures hone in on the prey.Check if he has a furling setup for the headsail you have. Good Luck

[commander93]

That would be awesome Carl - thanks for checking for me. I'll give him a try this weekend and see if he'll be willing to work with me. Would love to save as much cash as possible!

[carl291]

I may be headed up there this weekend , looks like I'll be home this weekend which is a surprise, so I'll hunt your size and set aside. He is trying to get me to buy the entire lot but I may just get what I can use and pick up what you need if you can trust me to judge the condition and price for you. let me know . Carl

[commander93]

That would be incredible. If you set it aside this weekend let me know and I can call him up give him my payment information and get him to mail it to me. Let me know your address so I can send you a case of beer for all your help (maybe a years supply!)

[carl291]

I am leaving now for Allen's I'll post back if I find sails that will work for you. I told him about the two sails you mentioned for $450 plus shipping, He said he could beat that price, I guess so, since he doesn't have a used sail over $100.

[commander93]

Hi Carl, my apologies, been swamped at work and had to work late in to the nights on Friday and Saturday (and likely today). I'm sure this is too late but name is Andrew White, reefing points aren't a mandatory, let me know how I can get the money to ya if you end up finding something. My phone number is 44uno-5ive32-04nin4.

This is long-distance for ya but let me know and I can call you if that works better. Thanks again Carl,
Andrew

[carl291]

Andrew, I didn't here from you in time but I can get you a jib but the main may be a problem. The few that he had are for tall rigged Cal 25 Cal 27 and Cal 28 which run like 27' 8" - 29'10" with a 8'or 9' foot, no mains had a 10'-11' foot. There is one more main still on a boom I'll check on.In any event I bought all the used sails he had, about 25 this morning over the phone and will pick them up in two weeks. If this will fit your time frame, when I get the sails home and double check all measurements again I'll contact you and sell you what you think will work for $75.00 each plus shipping. In the whole lot I only found 3 sails with damage ( mouse holes) . They were stored inside a building high and dry. He had some huge (to me) sails with a 37 ft luff that looked like new, I bought those as well , they are big enough for a boat cover, either that or for Ebay!!! . There are also 2 roller reefing headsails a Spinnaker and a mylar headsail. PS I just reread your post if you wait till I recheck the main BEFORE you cut the boom one of these mains may be perfect for you. The mains did have 1 reef point on them. Carl

[commander93]

Hi Carl,
Its my goal to step the mast this weekend. Finally got in my mast bases and chainplate which I had a friend back at home fabricate (see pics below - all it cost me was 130 in shipping). When I get everything up and ready I'll take some final measurements for the jib and main (although I think I'm pretty damn close) and get back to you. No problem in regards to the timeline, I'm on vacation after this week in Canada for 2 weeks so that works out perfectly.
Look forward to hearing from you and can't thank you enough for your help!
Andrew



7434o7433w7432)7431

[carl291]

Mast bases??? Spreader maybe!!LOL It all looks nice. Glad I can help. Carl

[commander93]

Hahahah whoops, I don't think that would work as a mast base at all, but yes spreader bases! :)

[commander93]

Unfortunately no mast stepping happened this weekend. In true Bermudian fashion our package of parts arrived on island on Tuesday but as of today still hasn't cleared customs :(. Took one day to cross the world to get to us and going on 6 days to get through customs. Oh well!

I did take pictures of the cross section of the mast. Would you say I need sail slides/track system or just a bolt rope for the main sail?
7460
7459

[ebb]

Slugs would seem to be the way to go here???

see WoodenBoat Forum for some ideas:
Fitting track slides to bolt rope main sail - anyone done it?

[Commander227]

Easy...
Evenly space small grommets every 20" - 24" up the luff just aft of the bolt rope.
Whip the slugs on with whipping twine. I don't recommend the plastic or metal shackles as they don't like to twist and tend to work the grommets out of the sail when you flake the sail.
Another option would be to just hand sew them around the bolt rope with a sailmakers needle and whipping twine.
Mike
C227

[Frenna]

Those spreader bases look great. It will be really interesting to see the rig set up with what I consider to be the "proper" spreader angles. Also seems like it should be much more durable than the common castings which inspire little confidence.

Keep up to he good work.

[commander93]

Thanks Frenna, Lots of trouble getting those guys in. Talked to 8 welders on the island, none of which would do it for under $1,200. Ended up going to a friend back home who did it for a case of beer. Took a while to get in but anything that's free always takes longer which I was more than happy with.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) going on vacation. Have all the parts in but now heading away. I'll look in to the Slugs when I get back (or while I'm away) thanks for the help on that everyone! Hopefully sailing by early July!

[carl291]

Andrew, I got the sails picked up today, there are 25 sails he sold a few, I was unloading and remeasuring everything and a pretty severe lightning storm came through, so I quit before I really got started. I managed to fall through a hole on a Cal 29 this morning where the keel was removed and got my leg skinned from my ankle to my hip and that has slowed me down. I was focused on getting a nice Perko brass oil light and forgot about the hole when I turned to get a screw driver! But alas I did get the light and left a blood trail exiting the boat! There is a main 23'10" luff X 9' foot ( 1 reef point) that will work according to your measurement but I do have about 5 mains so let me dig deeper. I have a headsail as well. The measurement on the headsail that you gave me is very close to the working Jib size for an Ariel. I can probably dig up a genoa size sail as well for you. Let me know by Email when your ready to send the payment and I will box up the sails and ship. contact me @: carla259.... at.... gmail.com Hope you enjoyed your trip back home. Carl Nussbickel PS another main L24 X F10, 1 reef point batten pocket repair. main L24 XF10.5

[commander93]

Hi Carl, Sorry for the long delay. Had the trip back home and then some visitors so that slowed down the work on the boat. Did an attempted mast stepping today but didn't go too well, just couldn't get the leverage so we're going to use a crane tomorrow to get it up. I'm gonna go do some final measurements tomorrow hopefully after the mast is finally stepped! Really excited - made some great progress. I'll be sure to take some photo's tomorrow. I'll deposit that money and contact you on your other account so we can work out the payments. Cheers, Andrew.

[commander93]

Sorry just reread your post and realized how big of an A$$ I am for mentioning that I hope you feel better soon. That sounds like a terrible accident. Suppose I better count my lucky stars that this is a stepped mast so the same doesn't happen to me. Get better soon!

[carl291]

Thanks Andrew, After a week I'm doing quite well but I got some ugly bruising. sent you a EM. Three things, (1) Let me know the measurements (2)I"ll get you something as close as possible. (3) I'll get your OK on the choice and ship, then tell the total for the shipping and the sails. You can then send me a check.

[commander93]

Mast is stepped!!!

Well I'm about a month behind schedule but the mast is finally stepped. Could only do it after work and there were a few unexpected hiccups but we managed to step, cut the stays install the sta-loks and get the rigging fully installed. Stayed until 4am in the morning to get it all done but it was worth it.

Hopefully sailing by the weekend, my camera broke while I was out there so didn't get a chance to take any pictures but Ill be sure to post something.

[commander93]

7547

Well here's an image of the spreaders at the correct angle. Only had my blackberry and had to get moving to put it on its mooring. Maybe get some better pictures later on.

I haven't installed the backstay as of yet and am using the toping lift and main halyard as a temporary, going to install tonight.

7548

[commander93]

Carl, I sent an EM in regards to the final measurements for the main, let me know if it went through. Having a bit of trouble in determining the length of the jib/genoa luff and was hoping to get some help in how to calculate.

Cheers,
Andrew

[commander93]

7656

First pics of Unholey under sail (sorry about the bad quality) - really need a name on that transom! Will get some soon with the main up. Thanks for everyones help on the board - couldn't have done this without you all!

Special thanks to Carl for getting us the sails!

[Ariel 109]

God damn them all! I was told, we'd cruise the seas for American gold!

Great work!

Ben

[commander93]

7684

Unholey has come a very long way - this was last summer when the transom was used as a battering ram against a dock.

[C38]

Congrats! the boat looks amazing! Can't wait to see more photos!

Also, can't believe that last photo! You certainly deserve to be sailing!

[carl291]

Andrew, YOU are a true Ariel/Commander HERO for rescuing C93, my hat is off to you,,, SALUTE!!!! No wonder the mast was pilfered, my guess is many many would have written C93 off. Now if you can keep the pirates off her, you'll be doing great. I'll check on that J24 headsail for you this weekend, I have a half a day off. Still need that picture with the sails flying..Did the mainsail slugs work or were they the wrong size?. Here is my latest find in MD, Triton 705, one owner, purchased from Young's Boat Yard in Baltimore. Phil Young was the absolute nicest man. His facility is spotless, perfect grounds quiet well protected docks and some very very interesting sailboats. Regret not bringing a camera. I bought this boat on the hard, as pictured unseen. He put it in the water and floated it to the lift, took it back out and secured everything for transport. When I arrived, I simply put my trailer under the boat threw a couple more lashings on everything and was on my way home.

[SkipperJer]

Phil Young is a former Ariel owner and an expert on rehabbing. My Commander would not be on the water without his good advice.

[commander93]

Sounds like a great boatyard. We could use one of those around here! For the commander it costs about 600 a month to store and 300 lifting fee. But with the amount of boats and lack of boatyards its no surprise about the price. The slugs unfortunately didn't work but we made due just using the bolt rope. Sorry about the lack of pics. Been busy with work lately - going to get out both days this weekend. Appreciate you having a look! Almost as many pirates here as Somalia :P. Enjoy the weekend!

[commander93]

7857

Again a special thanks to Carl for his help in getting us those sails!

[carl291]

You are entirely welcome. Beautiful sight Andrew, The sails look as white as the wind driven snow in the photo, glad your enjoying the boat at last! Carl

[carl291]

Andrew , Where have you been offf to????? Carl

[commander93]

Hey Carl, Still here, just haven't been doing much sailing for the past few months with work really picking up. Only 6 more months on my contract so I need to get out and enjoy it more!

We actually did a sail around the island in October but didn't get a chance to take any photo's - the reef system here keeps you on your toes with little time to actually sit back and enjoy the sites. Apparently one of the co-owners of the boat took it out when I went home for the Holidays and ruined the winch on it so I'll be going to have a look at the damage tomorrow night to see what I need to fix it.

A friend provided us with a spinaker but we need to get it patched and get a pole. None of us have ever sailed with one so I'm pretty hesitant with flying with one unless I have a pretty seasoned sailor on board with us. Hoping to find a free pole around the island which shouldn't be too hard.

[carl291]

Andrew, good to hear from you, I thought you may have deported or something. LOL. Let me know if I can help with the winch. Happy New Year as well. C.

[commander93]

Well moved back to Calgary - the land of no water. So no longer sailing. She's still in the hands of my two good friends down there. Hoping for a visit back down to Bermuda mid next year. Wife is pregnant with identical girls (due next month). Miss the water and sailing so much. Hoping maybe I can find a Commander in Alberta sometime in the near future. Thank you again for your help Carl and everyone on the message boards, you made my time in Bermuda that much more enjoyable! I still come back from time to time to look at everyones beautiful pictures and boats!

[carl291]

Your Welcome Andrew, Hope your wife is doing well, I'm an identical twin myself, I could offer some pointers on what not to do with twins...... LOL Enjoy being back home.... maybe you could trade some sun faded shorts for long handles LOL Take Care Captain , good to hear from you.

[commander93]

Hi Everyone! Been a long time since I've been on here. Moved back to Alberta and enjoying the mountains for the past year. Actually heading down to Bermuda at the end of next month to be reunited with my commander. I had one of my friends check up on her and he said the backstay chainplate is in rough shape along with the winch. May spend a day fixing her up so I can sail Unholey while I'm down there. I saw a couple posts here in the past for a refurbished backstay chainplate drawings so will look to see if I can get a local welder to put a stainless steel item together for me. I don't suppose anybody on here knows where to get a spare backstay chainplate or is it basically get a local welder to remake one for you?

[Commander 147]

C93

I had a new one made for me by a local sheet metal shop. Mine had been bent and I wanted something heavier and then I also redid the reinforcement in the boat to attach it to so it came up closer to the bottom side of the deck for additional support. They are an odd shape so you will not likely find one "ready made".

[commander93]

Thanks Jerry! I figured that was probably the only way of going about it. Fortunately it will be cheaper than in Bermuda since welders are a dime a dozen out here.

[carl291]

Andrew, Good to see your still kicking around, Alberta is nice country!!! Carl