Foul Weather Gear

[commanderpete]

Oh baby it's cold outside.

Proper clothing makes all the difference. It's the difference between being freezing cold and miserable...and just plain cold :)

Base Layer

I find the base layer annoying. The cold weather base layer is usually very tight fitting and when you move around the the top rides up and the bottom rides down. Some girls and gangbangers may like wearing clothes like this, but I don't.

You can get used to the tight fit somewhat, but sometimes I'll wear two looser base layers. The good stuff, like UnderArmor, is nice with a closer weave. You can sometimes find it on clearance in odd colors, but I won't spend $60 on a T-shirt. I usually find base and mid-layers on sale at Department stores or online at places like Sportsmans Guide. I try to find something cut long at the waist for the top and high at the waist for the bottom.

Mid Layer

This is usually fleece type and comes in different thicknesses. You can use two thin layers without adding much bulk. As with the base layers, stuff that is moisture wicking and breathable is better, although you don't really have much opportunity to work up a sweat if you aren't racing.

Outer Shell

I mostly use a lined "coastal" type jacket if I don't expect to get too wet. This is good enough to block the wind and the occasional bit of spray or even a light drizzle. It doesn't have to be a "sailing" jacket. Outdoor/camping stores and sites sell suitable jackets, although the markup there can be nearly as bad as sailing gear. But, with a higher volume there is more of a likelihood of clearance sales. Look for jackets cut a bit long at the waist if possible.

If the weather turns colder and wetter, I might throw a PVC rain jacket on top over everything to help block more wind and water. I'll put it on right over my inflatable PFD. The PVC jacket is very loose and I only button the snaps. I don't know if this is a bad idea, but I do it sometimes rather than changing jackets.

For the bottoms I mostly wear "coastal" type trouser style that's waist high rather than bibs. It's easier to take a piss and the bib shoulder straps can be aggravating when they slip off your shoulders. I prefer bottoms where the legs are wide enough that you can pull the bottoms on over your boots. A pocket or two is nice if you're going to be wearing them to and from the boat. If it's going to be wet, you do need bibs to protect the midsection.

Heavy duty foul weather gear has some good features, but can be expensive. You might find some at a steep clearance at the boating store. Fit can vary, for example, the length of the sleeves and legs so it helps to try it on. The jacket and the bibs don't need to match. I prefer bright colors for the jacket, but I don't think it matters for the bibs.

You can also shop manufacturers websites such as http://www.henrilloydonline.com/web/closeout.php

The stuff I have is pretty good quality, but I can't say any of it is truly waterproof against a prolonged deluge. The arms seem to soak through first. I haven't tried the fisherman style Grudens gear.

Sitting on a cushion is warmer than sitting on the deck.

Someday I might buy one of the salopette style bottoms

[commanderpete]

Now to the vulnerable areas

Head and Neck

I try to avoid the refreshing trickle of water down the neck. Wearing the collar of your foul weather gear zipped up can be uncomfortable. Some type of neck muffler or head and neck balaclava is nice.

Head gear is important, of course. The ears tend to suffer so your hat should have generous ear protection. The hood of your foul weather gear can be important when it's real wet, but seems to be an afterthought on some jackets.

Hands

Here you run into a conflict between warm and waterproof vs. finger dexterity. Any type of sailing glove helps in the cold. Sometimes you want a bit more. The knit acrylic type gloves can be surprisingly warm when wet. Lately I've been using the Atlas 1/2 knit gloves--a bit better for handling cold wet lines and cheap at $4.00. I also have some of the "Deadliest Catch" gloves which are pretty good. They come in different styles.

http://www.seamargloves.com/atlas_gloves/atlas_gloves.htm

Mostly I wear thinner gloves to avoid having to take the gloves off. Whenever you take off the glove your hand gets cold and the inside of the glove gets cold. It can be some time before your hand warms up again

[commanderpete]

Feet

Socks tend to be "smart wool" or other blends. I also have Seal Skinz boot high socks. Two pairs of socks might be needed. Buying boots a half size larger may or may not be a good idea since sizing varies a bit.

I have a few different types of boots ranging from dinghy boots to high leather and high rubber boots. Here you can also run into a conflict between warm and waterproof vs. clunky. In most conditions I prefer a slip-on mid height boot--just more user friendly

[commanderpete]

Well that's about it. I'm interested in any ideas to avoid freezing my ass off withou spending too much money. One problem with this gear is that you need a good bit of it--extras for yourself and some to outfit your ill-prepared crew.

If you'd like to gloat and tell me how warm it is where you live, go ahead and rub it in :D

[ebb]

MAN, THAT BLUE PHOTO IS TOO COLD!

This is a great subject.

Already learned something here.
I'm a fleece fan. Bought a roll of the stuff - happens to be the same color as Pete's photo - and just had a seamstress cut and surge the edges into blankets. Now I'm ready with 6 blankets in 3 fleece zippered pillow cases.
10 years ago I took two REI fleece jackets to Denmark. The one I always wear (Patagonia Synchilla), and still wear today, not soft and cozy as it was once, is Polartec 200, a medium weight fleece. It has NEVER changed its shape or wore out its elbows.. The 2nd jacket proved even at night to be too warm.
It is two layers of 200 with a membrane or very tight woven layer between for wind proofing. I couldn't wear it. North Face. Timberland. LLBean use WindPro for their warmest clothes.
Taken my fleece jacket out of wash at the end of the spin cycle and put it on, barely damp, and feel it warm up.

They call the fleece fabric polyester - but technically it's polyethylene terephthalate or PET. Right, sodapop bottles!
Dacron is a type of PET fiber.

Fleece appears everywhere, even gloves and socks.* I have a pair on order from workingperson.com. Acorn 20668ABK Cold Weather Wear Breathable Polar Fleece Sock. $15.99. Just to experiment - I don't ever wear socks. Top of the line, most of the other choices are $12.99. They'd be slippers too, and what to wear inside sea boots.

Duluth Trading Catalog. DuluthTrading.com (not a single item for women in the one I get) doesn't have fleece socks, they do carry 'no itch' Merino wool 80% with the rest in various plastic threads & spandex. They have my size too. $12.50 for crew. But all socks are too damn tight for me.
Fleece socks have to be fabricated, so there's less stretch in them since they are not knitted. The Polar fleece has some stretch in the fabric. If I can get my size they'd be a 'relaxed fit' on the feet.


IN DRESSING FOR COLD
I'm 100% with Pete on disliking the first layer to be polyester body sock. I like my body to move independently inside clothing. So I listen up when they talk of 'gusseted underarms', a fleece vest that is 'easy to move in', pants with a 'hidden crotch gusset. They show a quilted nylon jacket (no fleece), snap front, hand warmer pockets, inside zip pockets, and a DROP TAIL 'to keep drafts from sneaking up your back.' $19.99. May not be what I want, but they speak my lanquage! And no goose-bump minnesotan wears body socks that I'm aware of....
Layers of fleece 'sweats' - pants and shirts - will keep the body warm inside nylon or pvc shell. My warmth systems will depend entirely on fleece.

There's more selection of GLOVES in the larger Gempler catalog. A dozen choices of warmth and waterproofness vs dexterity. 'Water-resistant' isn't good enuf for the water, but Duluth has an item called the GLOMITT that have 'flip-back mitten and thumb covers' - instant access! I have to have my fingers together in a mitt to keep them warm - rather than isolated in the glove.
Next to these Glomitts in the catalog they show a fleece-lined windproof water-repellent GAITER that you cover your face with under your eyes and probably wear it outside the top closure of the rain jacket. Your own breath keeps you warm. Having extras to change into seems like a good idea. Anybody use these???


Well, this is to confirm that there seems to be stuff from the working and trekking catalogs that is at least interesting and reasonable for arctic sailing.

STORM WEAR
Jackets and bibs, is there anything that really keeps a body dry?
And comfortable?
Do you really have to go off shore in the dead of winter to put on a DRY SUIT?
I'd love to find a roomy one of those!!!!
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*Was just given a set of fleece sheets and pillow cases.
And ran through the wash and dry cycle while typing this!
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Grew up with head scratching scandanavian wool 'watch' caps - knitted by grandma for Xmas.
On the way from Dututh is a 50/50 wool/acrylic watch cap lined with non-static polyester fleece.
Head sock - and it also could be TOO warm! Or too much.

[ebb]

$1079. Thought I would start at the top.
altrec.com is a camping/kayak outlet.
Seems to rate well. Called them up to ask about two top price IMMERSION drysuits. The one here has an attached hood and a relief zipper Another suit is the GFE Gore-Tex Drysuit, $700/$800, no relief zipper and no hood. The guy said either suit can be customed. So if you like the front entry StarTrek look you can have that all important zipper put in. Women can add a 'drop seat' Tho you can find drysuits cut for women.. Both are 'relaxed fit' - photos seem show a baggy fit - which means you can wear fleece inside and remove or add a layer.

There are a lot of things you have to know about something you haven't worn before.
And until you wear it for awhile, you won't know if you will be happy in a quasi-military DRYSUIT - like with the seals and zippers.
And with your ability to move in the cockpit, on deck and through the companionway,
the type of material (is it rubbery, cold, or soft)
and the amount of sweat you produce with exertion.
And whether the material 'wets-out'. Whether the seat and knees are reinforced with cordura, etc.
And whether you can stand the latex seal around your neck, is it micro-adjustable with velcro?
Read descriptions and reviews.
Can you return the item easily?

The test for a drysuit is is jumping into the water. No leaks.
Can you move (swim) in the water?
GFE: Front entry is by means of a long zipper that goes from the right shoulder to the waist under the left arm. Might take some practice.

If it's below freezing sailing
or invited on a Volvo Around the World Race
these suits are the place to start.
Haven't compared with any marine catalogs.

By the by, if you get serious about buying one of these from altrec, you can buy a cheaper item (like a dry bag to put yer suit in),
and that currently gets you a 20% discount coupon on your next purchase.
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It looks like limited custom options are commonplace with Kokatat drysuits.
Legs and arms can be shortened (allowing a size larger suit) and include added sleeve pockets and the relief zipper. An interesting addition is interior suspenders. Using suspenders allows you to take the top off and tie the sleeves around your waist.
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[later post] Seems to be a decided lack of interest in what might be called comfort survival gear.
Kokata makes top of the line suits with GoreTex. They are said to be wearable all day. If you're new to this like me, and it's so damn expensive that we're probably all new to this drysuit concept, here's some reading: 'Dry Suit Buyer's Guide' and Dry Suit FAQ'
www.kayakacademy.com
They are an outlet. It looks like every retailer has the exact same prices for the Kokatats. These people have and show the complete line. Any deals are incentives by a particular store.
It's not out of the question that if you are not physically average you're looking at a really expensive custom suit.
Also Kokatat is the only manufacturer that make suits FOR women.
They are also the only ones with GoreTex fabrics.

[ebb]

Technical dressing for the cold insists on 'compression fit' underwear.
Maybe it works for the military and those who were lobsters in another life.

Patagonia in the early days was about fleece and stretch-jersey skin-cloying silk or polyester body gloves. The jersey is brush on the inside for airsulation and slippery on the outside for ease of drysuit entry.
I hated the concept and the materials. But certainly had better metabolism in those days and didn't need anti-environment survival gear really.
But now.....

Now leggings and shirts come in elastisized polyester fleece, DuPont hollowfill, wool, silk, nylon and goose down.
Some of the underwear is treated with 'Gladiator', an amino acid odor control.
This bondage skin approach makes young models look sexy
and older people look like turtles who have lost their shell.

Thermal outerwear fleece pants and shirts are looser alternatives for warmth inside a drysuit. You can probably find 100, 200 weight fleece.
REI has 300 weight 'windbrake' pants (with a treated water repellent surface) for $80 and a looser fitting matching jacket for $90.
The whole point of underwear is its wicking action inside a dry suit. So these might not work.
Maybe cheaper stuff is not so chemically tech and can be found in a more casual form.
And maybe some unfleece material will prove best.
Too bad a waterbird's down insulation cannot be used on a boat. Down pants and jacket are very cosy and wouldn't have to be 'compression fit'!!
I've noticed that most birds don't wear thermal underwear.
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Tried to find down alternative-filler fleece comforters. They do exist, have polyester fiber fill (and they are all made in China!), you can buy them from Overstock, BUT you can't wash them yourself. Have to be taken to the dry cleaners for chemical processing...ridiculous!
What I mean is: there doesn't seem to be any down-alternative poof pants in the market....
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FEEDBACK ANYONE???

[commanderpete]

Looking around I see the US Military is using Polartec for the base and mid-layers, and none of that compression fit business.

Gore-tex for the shell

http://coldweatherclothing.info/Commercial.html

You might find Polartec on sale at places like Cabelas. I've even bought some women's tops in 2X or 3X if it's cheap enough. Might be a little full in the bust, I don't know :o

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/common/search/search-results1.jsp?_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1&selectedPerPage=&hasJS=true&_D%3AhasJS=+&_D%3Asort=+&sort=bc&Ntt=polartec&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form1

Last year I bought a pair of German military Gore-tex pants for $20, in green, not camo. Good stuff.

You know the Germans make really good stuff :)

http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/new-german-military-gore-tex-pants-fleck-camo.aspx?a=278108

[ebb]

www.histackleboxshop.com
has Grunden's Foul Weather Clothing.
Gruden's is what the stars of the World's Most Dangerous Profession (Discovery channel) wear when Arctic crabbing on camera.
They don't have no stinkun drysuits, just bib overalls and parka jackets. There's lots of fleece outerwear for when coamers aren't coming aboard. Lots of yellow and red. For innerwear you can put on the Viking FP 400 fleece waist pants, XS to 5X, with zippered pockets and elastic web belt. Bet they stand up by themselves. There is a lighter version. Decent prices. No paddler's doodah tech.
Grunden has a $200 one piece PVC coated suit. Must be really awful. Clammy. Doesn't look like you can raise your arms or lift a leg in the damn thing.

BOOTS
Here you find those triple dipped PVC 16" boots that only last a year. They were yellow once, now they're olive. About 30 bucks - I think they always were that price.
I got big feet with a large instep, could only get in to the largest size boot they made when new and hadn't stiffened up. All the boots I've come across:
Henri Loyd Ocean Extreme,
Dubarry Ultima,
Dubarry Extra Wide Shamrock Stretch Boot, you know the kind with Cordura tech fabric and oiled nubuk, these are $300 to $400.
Slam Layline, the Technical Winter Sailing Boot is $250
The Ronstan XXL is really size 11, don't trust people who get their nomenclature wrong, probably made in China.
And then there's Gill, with a soft rubber tie top for $70.
But there's no way I can get my foot in there much less my hand in the Gill or any of the 16" boots. If you're jamming a two or three layered foot into
a boot it needs to be a couple sizes larger than usual and still be a little loose for comfort and air.

For basically sitting around in a drysuit I know I'd want/need an XXtra large boot that's good for two layers of Fleece 200 boot liners - if you can find 'em.
Kyackers don't use them, Grunden's doesn't have them.
Fools with big feet can't wear off the shelf because they don't size big enough.

Imco there's no good reason to wear boots on a Commander or Ariel anyway.
In the few times I wore my wetsuit the largest neoprene soft shoes I could find were B width, and painful to wear.
There must be something comfortable in the market, something pliable and dry, and warm when needed, to wear around the boat that won't subtract dexterity from the lower body. Like heavy, thick kalumping boots do.
Isn't it very odd we think we want armoured feet on a small and intimate boat?

Seems like most outfitters have the stuff THEY think you need, not the stuff YOU can really use!

If you go to the LynnandLarry Pardey site, in the 2006 section they have something interesting on 16" boots at sea.

Need more input,
I'm done. All imco.