Ariel performance vs Cape Dory 25

[Dennis Rioux]

Hello. I've been lurking for a while, admiring the work all of you do keeping your various Ariels and Commanders going into their mid-40s. I am seriously considering "buying in" to the not-easily trailered boat ownership thing, and I am quite taken with the Ariel and Commander designs as well as the Ensign. I have been monitoring brokerage sites and Craigslist so I have a feeling for what is out there at what price. Then a friend of mine let me know of a Cape Dory 25 that may be available, so I started looking into that design. When he talked to me, my friend said something like "the knock on the Cape Dory is that it is slow and doesn't point well." I have very minimal sailing experience, so here I am bothering all of you. :)

I have used a site to compare various parameters like sail area to displacement for the Ariel and CD25 and they look fairly similar to me.
LOA
Pearson Ariel 25.6
Cape Dory 25 24.833

LWL Pearson Ariel 18.5
Cape Dory 25 18

Beam
Pearson Ariel 8
Cape Dory 25 7.25

Displacement
Pearson Ariel 5120
Cape Dory 25 4000

Sail Area
Pearson Ariel 307
Cape Dory 25 264

Capsize Ratio
Pearson Ariel 1.86
Cape Dory 25 1.83

Hull Speed
Pearson Ariel 5.76
Cape Dory 25 5.69

Sail Area to Displacement
Pearson Ariel 16.54
Cape Dory 25 16.76

Displacement to LWL
Pearson Ariel 361
Cape Dory 25 306

LWL to Beam
Pearson Ariel 2.31
Cape Dory 25 2.48

Motion Comfort
Pearson Ariel 23.86
Cape Dory 25 21.87

Pounds/Inch
Pearson Ariel 529
Cape Dory 25 466

Are there places to go to find accounts (subjective or objective) of the sailing characteristics of various designs? Anybody here want to venture an opinion or have experience sailing both? Both designs have obviously been out there long enough for opinions to have formed -- I'd like to read/hear some of them if possible.

I have to say that I am not much taken with the CD25 -- it just doesn't appeal to me as much as the Ariel and Commander (and I ain't just saying that because I am posting here :D). The shallower draft (3') of the CD25 is somewhat attractive, but the accompanying lack of headroom below (4'-something) is a real minus. Well, I will stop here for now. I'd really appreciate any insight you'd care to share. Thanks.

Dennis

[mbd]

I'm not a racer, the the PHRF (Performance Handicap Racing Fleet) ratings could be indicative of their speed, as well.

I was researching this recently to see how the smaller Alberg hulls compared and found this on US Sailing or some similar site. A quick Google got me the NON-Alberg (eh-hem!) CD 25 Avg number, but not the low and high - sorry.



------------------------ Lowest --- Highest -- Average
Class\Type ------------- Handicap - Handicap - Handicap
------------------------ -------- ---------- --------
PEARSON COMMANDER IB -- 243 ----- 252 ----- 246
PEARSON COMMANDER -- -- 210 ----- 261 ----- 249
PEARSON ARIEL 26 ------ -- 243 ----- 264 ----- 255
PEARSON ARIEL 26 OB --- -- 252 ----- 258 ----- 255
CAPE DORY 25D --------- -- 252 ----- 261 ----- 255
CAPE DORY 25 ---------- ----? ----- ----? ----- 261
PEARSON ENSIGN ------- -- 246 ----- 276 ----- 261
PEARSON ELECTRA ------ -- 252 ----- 288 ----- 273


-- edit--
sorry, I can't get this thing to format like a table - I'll try later...

[ebb]

Hi,
Appeal is the operative word here.
It is the how to say the 'subjective' and personal - rather than the logical and statistical side of the equation.
I don't think speed is part of the equation. The guy who sold me my Ariel was going to get a wetsuit performance catamaran and race.

The Ariel Commander hull is to me just about the most perfectly proportioned of Albergs many designs. 26' OA X 8' X 18' WL is as small as you can design a traditional keel sailboat and still have it habitable. The width inside a boat this size becomes pinched and narrow under 8' - no matter the headroom.

The beautiful curve of the bow, which Alberg never had a problem with, and the shape, angle, and mass of the stern are what the eye first takes in when looking at a boat. Ariel/Commanders don't miss a lick. Considering the Cape25, metaphorically the comparison is between Marylin Monro and Rosie O'Donnel.

I also like the traditional double bump dog house look of the Ariel coachroof. It's an appealing sculptural curvey thing translated into fiberglass from earlier wood boats that seems more handsome and proportioned and has an absolutely gorgeous and unique roundness to its front. The fore part could have been chopped off, because it goes a bit beyond the 'form follows function' rule. To me it compliments the perfect hull form.

The Cape Dory's more practical round porthole look really doesn't appeal to me. BUT I need only to see the A/C and the Cape Dory stern on to understand why.

The A/C dead straight sheer is an anomaly that is nowhere addressed in the Pearson Association literature. Sheer lines are often an 'appealing' attribute.
All the drawings of Ariel/Commanders show a very nice curvy sheer not unlike the CD. Yet they were manufactured without sheer.
I'm not a boat scholar BUT I believe that the continuing popularity of our boats might be because... as time, fashion, and what we culturally think is attractive, changes... our straight sheer has kind of modernized our vessels.

So while the Cape Dorys have become dated, our 'classic' boat form has been 'retro-ed' or updated by chance. Happy chance.:cool:

[Dennis Rioux]

Mike & ebb,

Thanks for the feedback. I have to research the handicap number more to figure out its meaning (I recall a thread in another part of this forum where I can go for a start). I don't have any plans to race, but the number should tell me something about relative performance I suppose.

Let me reassure you I am right there with all of you on the pleasing, classic looks of the Ariels and Commanders. I hope you'll pardon the discussion of a non-Alberg design here, I am just trying to get an education about the relative merits of various designs. Given the obvious pleasure all of you get from your Ariels and Commanders and your willingness to work hard to get them/keep them in fine shape, its evident to me the design is a very good one. So I trust your opinions as I try to learn more. The quest continues. Thanks again.

Dennis

[ebb]

Sorry, George Stadel designed the Cape Dory 25 (aka Greenwich 24).
Alberg designed the CD 25D.
I've never thought to compare the Stadel and Alberg CD25s.
But am taking liberties with the Alberg 25D and the Ariel 26. :o:o

[Chance]

Ebb,
You got it right. The CD25 and the CD25D are two totally different sloops, designed by different naval architects and share very little in common. The CD25 started life known as the Allied Greenwich 24 built by Allied boats up in Catskill, NY. They sold the mold to that hull to Cape Cory in 1971/2 and Caped Dory did a little modification to her and introduced her to the public as the CD25 in 1973. Yes, it's definatley a George Stadel design, and I don't think one can compare him to Alberg. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

I have seen many older sloops "out perform (Sail)" modern designs not because they were better designs, but rather the skipper and trimmers knew how to read the wind, make finite sail trim adjustments, minimize tiller / wheel input and could basically sail better.

I sold a 1973 CD25 (hull # 32) in order place myself in a position to specifically purchase an Alberg Commander.

Thank you.