Ariel #215...."Revival"...again

[frank durant]

a great critter home

[frank durant]

interior pic again

[frank durant]

she's 165 newer than #50 :)

[Tony G]

Gawd! Am I full of envy!! You know what I mean, too.

The whole bar will tip a glass to you, Frank, and to Two Fifteen!

[Tim D.]

Yes sir EEEE! A Sailfar grog for you Frank

[tsprat]

I don't see any critters, the v berth looks good, What are your restoration plans

Tim

[frank durant]

Tsprat...no restoration...I'm just going to throw a sleeping bag up there in that 'looks good' Vberth and GO ;) Lots of plans...but they will 'evolve'.It won't even be home for a while....lots of dream time. Gotta go and feed the critters. PS..Thanks guys.

[carl291]

Frank
It doesn't look bad at all, The seller description was much worse than it appears in the pictures. Very few mods from original, makes for a nice starting point.;)
Good Luck

[frank durant]

The 'dream' right now is an open interior.Judy really liked the flicka inside. So..enspired by Ebb and Kurt and flicka's, I hope to have it as open as possible with an aft head/shower to stbd with galley to port and apposing settees between there and the Vberth with a fold down table. I'm thinking water tankage forward where the head is now.That would be easy and keep weight aft of the original tank.The 'inboard engine' erea will probably have a second water tank.I'm thinking of creating 'pockets' port/stbd in the cockpit under the seats to each hold a 6 gallon tank.That 12 gallons should give over 30 hrs 4 stroke OB time. Sails will be a battonless main with 3 reef points,jib with one reef point,lightweight 150 and a storm jib. Seems the best compromise in my head anyway.I hope to keep the bilge open for cans etc. Great storage erea for heavy items.

[frank durant]

Here's my idea with the tanks 'in'. Compac had never done this before. Gerry liked the concept and did it on a 25.

[Westgate]

I've seen alot worse actually looks pretty good from these pics. Wow 215 is in for some changes. Looking forward to watching the new girl emerge from old.

I was also ruminating over the idea of "hard" installed fuel tanks. Much less hassle than those damn portable ones flopping around. I think back aft like Ebb is smart since that space isn't great for storage due to the fact that it is always wet! Fuel is relatively light. Actually had them speced out from a ss welding company that specialises in tanks. The price was high and that cooled my jets but still think its a great idea.

Just promise me one thing...you aren't going to touch that great looking formica:rolleyes:. Its so, well, 60's!!

Good stuff Frank!

Andrew

[frank durant]

I love the formica too. It will really bring out the beauty of my black velvet art collection.:D

[ebb]

hey Frank!
Pulling the tillerhead up to deck level is a GREAT idea
and an important innovation.
Looking forward to seeing just how you solve it -
as the whole rear of the cockpit (and the 'aft bridge deck') has to radically change.
Everytime I moved one thing, it caused twenty other somethings to happen,
and I don't know how many more hours and $$$ materials.....

The shower inside the c'way?
Can't wait to see HOW YOU DO THAT!:cool:


Was far into deconstructing the interior befor the Festool sander turned up.
Grinding off the old paint was the hardest and most despicable job ever encountered. And I hired 75% of it out to a guy I see everyday at work - Taped tight tyvec moon suit, double cartridge mask, inch thick toxic dust - think he's forgiven me! Mostly with the Makita grinder, it was deadly, totally.

The Festool HEPA vac and 5" sander which I've had the pleasure to use since
is an amazing improvement. NOT an improvement, its a revelation!
You can lay out a buffet lunch on the settee and sand fiberglass and old paint at the same time! NO KIDDING!

No dust mask, no lung-clogging micros floating in a shaft of sunlight.

[frank durant]

Ebb...I wasn't thinking so much about moving the tiller head up as I was building in the tanks in a similar way.It keeps their weight more forward.I'm hoping to keep the 'ends' as light as I can for buoyancy. PM me if you know a east coast supplier of that sander please.The aft head/shower will be smallish...but after fitting into a Flicka's aft head, it should seem spacious.

[ebb]

Frank,
You probably need to approach the Festool god cauciously due to impending wallet shock.
In the past woodworkers forums provide some entertaining insight into the Festool system. I haven't read a negative word. Always good to talk with someone who is using it. It's an investment, something you leave to someone in your will.

Woodcraft Catalog. I think all major catalogs flog it from Kingspor to Jamestown. I think major independent hardware stores would have something you could see and touch. The price is controlled, Never seen a % off sale. There have been a few 10% off introductory offers. It's obviously aimed at professionals - not the home dewityerselfer.
BUT it's obviously a handyman's wet dream.:D

If you have a Woodcraft store near you, there may be someone there with experience. Certain to have one or two on display.

I borrow the tool from the vineyard shop, that vac is the most powerful of the three I think they sell. Don't really know what the differences are. The high-end vac is taller and heavier with a big dust bag that hardly ever needs replacing!. I know, I've had to lift it up the ladder and onto the boat. But it probably is powerful enough to suck dust through extra long hoses (which we don't have.)
Also, joy of joys, there is an auto setup where clicking on the sander turns the vac on simultaneously. The system is highly engineered and nearly every shop electric handtool is part of it, including three or four more sanders. If you can imagine using a router in the kitchen while preparing dinner you got the idea.

The housekeepers at the vineyard have one of their own, just the vac.

[frank durant]

I'm happy it has life lines.Anyone have a cheapy stern rail for sale?

[c_amos]

Just in case any who are following this may not know, Frank's first Ariel was 'Revival' which he did some amazing work to and cruised aboard.

Here is a link to the thread where you can read about it;

ARIEL # 50 REVIVAL, by Frank Durant (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1239)

[tsprat]

The festol is way overrated, I have one. The 1/8 sander, It is ok, I have been using my bosch sander on the boat it is more aggressive,. nothing beats the dyna braide or the 3m version

[tsprat]

Frank
what are you going to do for a toilet and holding tank

Tim

[ebb]

Tim,
the Festool sander is an oscillating type.
The others you mention may be grinder or the spinning versions.
They are much more efficient at material removal,
and extremely efficient at getting dust into every nook and cranny of both the boat and the operator.
Ive hunkered down on the F. sander and have gotten some decent material removal, but it is NOT a grinder.
In a boat yard you'd have to tent your boat to use the spinners.
Vacuum enabled sanders will allow you to work in the sunshine.
Although everyone I see in the yard use funky sanders and funky vacuums that do a lousy job collecting dust.
The Festool does an amazing job collecting dust. Inside or out.
If you are sanding this is the only tool on the market that does it dust free.
And that's why they can get what they get for it.

I grinded the inside of 338 down to green polyester with a Makita.
Now I believe it is unnecessary to do this for any restoration/resurrection.

Our old paint must be pretty neutral after four decades.
If I was doing it again I would Festool sand hull and bulkheads with 40 or 60 grit. leaving whatever old paint was firmly attacted.
Any gluing of new bulkheads I might grind down to green for structural epoxy tabbing.
But all the rest of the water resistant coatings inside I'd use waterborne (NO solvent) epoxies and urethanes - paint right over the old stuff, as long as it was well sanded.

Even after grinding there is always paint left behind in the old checkered roving. I've tabbed over a bunch of it and can't imagine the tabbing or filleting letting go.

[frank durant]

Ebb...I agree with you and had NO plans of 'bareing the hull' everywhere inside.I do plan on it for tabbed ereas. As for toilet/tank...just a typical cheapie jabsco head with a minimal tank to be legal and a Y valve overboard. I have found groco expensive to buy as well as their parts with no better service than a $150 jabsco.The 'head' and 'pump overboard' disscusion is much like anchors or favourite vehicles.No true 'correct' answer.

[tsprat]

Ebb I agree with you fully that the festool is a well made and very good at removing dust. But is a tool system were you have to buy in to the whole product line, The tool line is great for a mobile shop. The festool I have is the finishing or 1/8 sander which leaves a very small cross hatch It works well with the 3/16 or intermediate sander. I bought it because I was working with another cabinetmaker who had the intermediate or 1/8 sander and they worked great together. My bosche sander is a random orbit and I hook it to my fein vac and it works. The other two sanders are random orbit too. I just can't get the whole festool ordeal. I guess I am being the one person out there that doesn't get excited when it comes to festool products
Tim

The

[frank durant]

Would I be correct in assuming #215 is a 1964 ? Tried the search button but couldn't find years-hull #'s

[Bill]

Would I be correct in assuming #215 is a 1964 ? Tried the search button but couldn't find years-hull #'s

Probably a good estimate. #76 was produced in 1962, the first year. #440 was produced in 1966, the last year for Ariels. If you can research the boat's state title, maybe you can come up with a first year of registration.

[carl291]

Frank,
Ariel 259 is titled as a 1963, the title also says it's a 28 footer, so take it it for what it's worth:rolleyes:

[Tim D.]

California has it titled 1965, and think that is probably accurate.

[frank durant]

I need help with measurements. I am getting a trailer made...cheaper than boat movers twice. He asked ...."I need the square configuration if its on a cradle now e.g 6'x10' or
6x12, approximate hieght of post from bottom of keel and length of keel." As #215 is about 500 miles away...can anyone help me out?

[Commander 147]

Here is the link.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1552

Scroll down to post # 11

[frank durant]

Thanks Just what is needed

[frank durant]

I like Ebbs idea of draining aft. I was thinking of reducing the volume of the cockpit by building a storage erea forward...much like James Baldwin did on his triton.This would not only reduce the erea but place the pickups further aft as well (just aft of locker)and I think make the the whole "drain aft" thing more viable. My intention is to avoid thru-hulls if I can. Boats not here yet...just day dreaming. Thoughts?

[c_amos]

Frank,

Just 2 points to consider. I know Kurt is considering this for Katie Marie also, so you might pick his brain on it too.

In considering this mod sitting aboard Katie Marie with a mocked up box where it would go (small area of the cockpit well forward). I personally sit pretty far forward unless the boat is heeling. Sitting forward with my feet in the well allows me to take maximum advantage of the dodger in foul weather, as well as putting me farther from the stern.

I appreciate Carl's drawing such a stout bridge deck, but it does become something of an obstacle when going below. It limits how far aft the aft bow of the dodger can be, due to the necessity of climbing up to go over it. It seems to me that a cockpit mod like Atom has would be somewhat tougher to navigate aboard an Ariel... especially with less spry crew (no similarity to anyone reading this thread other then myself intended). :D

I would suggest Kurt's method of mocking it up and stepping over it for a while before you go for it. Might wanna mock up a dodger bow to through in the mix also.

[Tim D.]

It limits how far aft the aft bow of the dodger can be, due to the necessity of climbing up to go over it.

This was the conclusion I came to in thinking about a larger bridgedeck. The hard dodger on #331 requires stepping over to get into the companionway. It would mean crawling into the cabin with a larger deck. Thankfully neither I or the first mate are 6' .

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4058&stc=1&d=1178510582

[frank durant]

Good points. I wonder if the forward 1/3 of the cockpit sole could be built up to flow aft with the drains placed there? Thinking this would make the 'drain out the transom' idea more feasible ?

[Tim D.]

Good points. I wonder if the forward 1/3 of the cockpit sole could be built up to flow aft with the drains placed there? Thinking this would make the 'drain out the transom' idea more feasible ?

Wouldn't that make you feel kinda tipsy all the time.......

Never mind, I forgot who I was talking to :D

[frank durant]

:eek: Nah...would just keep me in practice :) I'm liking the 'no holes' below waterline concept. Not sure if its attainable, but the thought is good. I know Ebb has the other drains as well but sure like this idea.

[frank durant]

Ebb...I'm confused. (easily done) In the picture, do forward drains run aft in the black pipe or do aft drains run down and are glassed in .....or both?

[Tim D.]

Frank, are those done with elbows embedded into the laz floor?

[frank durant]

Those are Ebb's pictures....???

[Tim D.]

Now I see, I caught you in between posts

[c_amos]

Those are Ebb's pictures....???

Yes, those are Ebbs, Man does he ever do nice work....

I think the idea of a slight build up of the cockpit floor forward might work out nicely. I can't say I ever was afraid of the cockpit volume issue, but the maximum amount of water that the cockpit ever held on Faith was the ~3" to get to the lip of the well.

I did compromise, and replaced the .5" well drain with a 1.5" drain so it could empty faster (with a plug, that can be installed with the well plug).
http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/1Haulout2_Drainpipe.jpg

I thought I had a more 'finished' picture of this, but you get the idea;

http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/normal_2Haulout_0028.JPG
If I were crossing the pond I would want the plug in the well and to have some kind of arrangement like what Capt. Ebb has.

[Tim D.]

Good idea just improving the well drain, like you said once the water gets to that point it go into the well. As I am in the middle of reworking the well for the propane locker, I want to make any changes now.

[ebb]

shouldn't get into this, just too many words.
Does look like A338 pics.
Important point imco is that the cockpit is stabilized with longitudinal bulkhds.
Would not have built up the bugle shapes of glass up TOP of those tubes unless the c'pit is stabilized.
That's another kettle of fish.


If you look at the rudder tube in Ariels coming thru the c'pit deck you'll see Pearson used some goop there because they had a thru-deck that had to be flexible. They weren't successful imco and where the rudder tube pierces the c'pit deck is another leak point in the Pearson short list.

You'll note that the original c'pit thru-deck drains went to hoses, which take flex. The only way, without remodeling anything, is to increase the size of the existing drains to get more volume out. I feel more volume gets out if you aren't pushing against deep water - which is what the originals do.

The Ed Ekers beaucoup volume water removal process through the OB motor-well lets out free water without much constriction. Might just be the best way to save yer butt in green water.


Just throwing out a couple alternatives:
1) Put in extreme oversize pipes out the side of the hull from the aft end of the c'pit. They might be protected with powerboat style flapper valves - ones that allow water out but not back in. The tubes need not be at c'pit deck level since their function is to get rid of volume water fast. You have to put up with unsightly holes in the side of the boat well above the boot-stripe.

2) The same large tubes could be run through the lazarette from the corners of the c'pit in the same fashion. That is they would be at a convenient height and in a convenient configuration (curved, for instance) to exit out the transom where such holes are more acceptable.

Somebody might seriously consider using 2 6" PVC pipes, which would give you more than 50 square inches of open area, which is comparable to the OB motorwell.

Advantage is that an open pipe system like this - done well - would NOT sink the boat - there are no tubes or outlets under water. With oversize piping, of course you won't have seacocks.


Somewhere the math exists on just how long it takes water to exit thru certain sized openings.
The first volume of water to think about is
how much weight and gallons there are in a full cockpit well.
approx. 5' X 2' X 1.5' = 15 cu ft X 64# = 960#... in the well alone.
Then, if you are in conditions where you've taken one green one over the stern....are you about to take another worst case?
Big drains will look pretty good...then!

[frank durant]

Thanks Ebb. I put your pics up to ask how it worked (post 36) Now...where do the black pipes go? In the end, I simply hope to have no...or few holes below the waterline and a quick draining cockpit.Biggest problem I see is that 'as built' the floor drains forward.

[Bill]

The Ed Ekers beaucoup volume water removal process through the OB motor-well lets out free water without much constriction. Might just be the best way to save yer butt in green water.

This was the cockpit drain method used by Zoltan when he sailed from LA to Greece. No cockpit draining problems reported by UHURU when she sailed to Australia.

Careful not to follow Ebb in overbuilding your yacht . . ;)

[ebb]

In the ebb's gallery pages check out post #306, middle photo.
There you see the four exit holes under the counter. The pair furthest back are from the original front cockpit drains. The c'pit naturally drains forward. A "T" fitting is attached under the enlarged drainhole and single lengths of 2.25"D epoxy pipe go along close under the cockpit the full length to the holes. In theory the long pipe drains fall slightly toward aft.

The two holes you see in the copper bottom are the straight-thru's from the aft corners of the c'pit - but positioned in a bit toward the center to miss the forward drain pipes.

I'm only guessing, but imco the horizontal pipes are too close to the waterline.
It's possible that water can enter the c'pit when closehauled. Guessing.
The direct aft drains might be gurglers and also ship water.


IF I were to do it over I would put oversize hard pipe drains in from the original position to their original exits under the waterline (only in a stabilized cockpit.) I might rigidize the setup by glassing in full length stub blkhds next to the pipes to support and protect them. No seacocks. The hard glassed-in pipes with bell-shaped unions to the hull would take much less room than the obligatory seacocks and hose. Would not run horizontal scupper pipes under the cockpit. Next time!


I would have some version of oversize overflow pipes which would exit the transom.
They could possibly go out sidewise (into the locker area) from the c'pit near the aft corner but in the locker turn immediately through the blkhd and sweep out the back.
As a OB cruiser it's probable that a fairing lid will be in place in the bottom of the OB well while under sail.
Having large diameter 'overflow' drains isn't any more radical than an OB well in the lazarette. And if somebody came up with a good design it would be a great safety feature.

At some point in refurbishing an OB Ariel the 'gas-can deck' in the lazarette should be removed and rebuilt. If never done before it's probably full of water and gasoline. A338's was. It might be reconfigured with large scupper piping as part of the rebuilt deck. Just an idea.

I'm guessing that inboard Ariels have a similar deck inside the laz.


Ed Ekers is the most experienced sailor in the West Coast Fleet. In his hair-wetting story "Getting Wet" he shows how ridiculously easy it is to get boarded over the stern with a whole lot of ocean. He has the presence of mind to know exactly what to do. [grab his sunglasses:D]
That's the 'essence of luck'. Pathfinder's OB-well made a great scupper to void all that water quick. Ariels and Commanders without the OB well really have to figger a way to get the volume and weight of water out ASAP. Just suppose your boat got boarded a second time with the cockpit still nearly full?:eek:

[frank durant]

Thanks. That was a concern I had as well, but without the boat here yet to climb on, I was going by failing memory. Gotta say Ebb....everytime I go to your pages (often) I get inspired. You set the bar for ALL that follow.

[epiphany]

Franklin -

My 'cockpit box' goes from the after edge o' the bridgedeck, to just past the forward edge of the cockpit locker. Push the tiller up, and you have great footroom for two, comfy cozy footroom for four. ;)

Not too difficult getting in and out of the cabin because I have a step inside that is right at the height of the bridgedeck, so you aren't stepping In and Down at the same time.This step also makes for convenience/ease when the (1/2 height of companionway) drop board is in.

It makes egress/ingress pretty easy, even when stooped over. Don't have a dodger (yet), but me boom tent is at the height of the eventual dodger, so I get lotsa practice. :)

I understand Craig's point about not having a footwell handy when pressed up under the dodger, but one of the things I really really remember from reading "Dove" for the first time back in the '70's was how RL Graham eventually filled in his *entire* footwell, because he'd been pooped too many times and was extremely worried about foundering because of it. Plus, looking at many classic boats like Serrafyn you'll see they have tiny footwells. I figger this is because when our tippy boats heel, it is as easy to brace against the other coaming as it is the lip of the footwell, so the depth isn't being used too much then. That's my logic, flawed as it may be. :D

The real bummer is that the footwell box is just not quite deep enough to serve as a propane locker for a 20# cylinder. Close, though! Maybe some modification to drop it the inches needed would allow it to qualify as a USCG-approved above-waterline-with-drains-overboard locker. :)

PS - Just noticed that 44 posts ago, I passed my hull #. :D

[frank durant]

The trailer is finished.Ended up costing less than one way on shipping.

[frank durant]

Well.....ain't she cute hiding in those bushs

[frank durant]

Is it a bird...is a plane...no, it's a flying ariel

[frank durant]

Well....made it home, all 590 miles.As always..it looked better in the pictures. Gotta love a challenge. Too bad the kids are older, they could have used the decks for a trampoline :) I found it noticeably easier to tow than the flicka. I guess the limit of my V6 was slightly below the flicka and just above an ariel. Both are an overload.

[carl291]

Oh yeah brother, ain't it the truth. Glad you had a safe trip home and the new trailer worked out well.
Were you able to learn any history on the vessel or just another old forgotten boat left at "the yard"!
Any treasures found that are pleasant surprises?;)
Good Luck.

PS, Is that another Ariel under your flying Ariel ( red hull)?

[Tim D.]

Congrats on getting her home Frank. I have to admit when I looked at those first pics above I thought it was your yard.:eek::eek::eek::eek:;)

[Tony G]

Congrats, Frank!

Now begins the part we have all been waiting for...picture pages. And none of this 'before and after' 2-shot stuff. We want daily updates of the minutiae!

First off, where ya gonna put her? Do you have a spot in the family garage? and are you going quit working this summer so the rest of us can live vicariously through you?

Hmm, that's all I can think of right now as I'm supposed to be working but I'll drop a few more questions as they arrise.

P.s. I thought that was your yard too!:D

[frank durant]

Some quick notes...
*Should have put "looked WAY WAY WAY batter in the pictures"
*Nope..not an ariel below...but he had a nice Electra to the side.
*no garage...I'll rig a roof out behind a barn to keep the water off and invest in bug spray...lots of bug spray
*As to pics and timeline...we're swamped at work so what I see happening is spuradic bursts as time allows with as much getting done in those shorter periods as I can.I think its on a 3 yr timeline. I will posts pics as I go.Here's the plan
*powerwash decks/inside (mold)
*drill drain holes to let water out and any hidden keel void water
*remove all hardware,windows,teak (whats left of it)

*cut top layer of glass on decks,coachroof,remove core..bla bla.
I think I may have to do this in stages or loose the deck.They
are literally that bad.
*then the fun stuff...gut the inside,open interior etc etc.

I should note the true beauty of this site are the ideas you can steal. You look at others,get inspired and proceed....even if in a different manner with a different result, the inspiration was from here. Thanks Bill
On that note, Is the deck core 3/8th inch? (hope they have volume discounts:))

[frank durant]

Couple of other notes. I was surprised and very happy to see a stern rail. #50 didn't have one and it was missed. The $$ saved there will go to coring :). Then, there are 2 nice bronze ports laying below. Won't fit an ariel, but a nice lil find for ?? down the road.

[ebb]

You are a good man, Frank.
And I know you are the right man for the job.
Cliches for sure, but every word shines like gold.

Hope you show us exactly what you do to preserve that messed up deck.

I've fantasized on other projects that the cabin/dog house structure would actually have to be braced so the decks can be recored without worry about the deck changing :eek: camber.
That is if doing it from the top.
littlegull had a 19"X19" piece cut out of the foredeck - the top thickness varies between 5/32" to 13/64" - substantial. [The balsa core is 3/8"]
Some observations:
The INSIDE skin layer of the sandwich varies from 1/32" to 1/16" but building up in some areas to 3/32" [like where it bumps out and encapsulates the mid-plank] - with evidence of at least one layer of glass cloth in the lam. On this boat the inside skin of the deck is too thin, imco.
If I had to do a whole deck recore, and had known how skinny the inner skin was/is, I might do the new core in sections. One section at a time. Maybe be three or four non connecting sections at the same time.
Maybe the foredeck in quarters, sides in two or three sections each. Only cutting into the top, each section, one at a time.
[I don't believe that cutting the deck into small pieces is correct. SEE BELOW.]
BUT I've never seen a deck as bad as Frank describes!
THE WHOLE CABIN TOP ALSO GONE? Ridiculous.

The 'king' plank down the middle of the foredeck on 338 is only 3 7/8" wide fir ply.
It's 3/4", the type that is 3 fat veneers with thin veneers top and bottom - plenty of opportunity for rot to occur. The cut out shows that the ply and the balsa were not isolated.


I've more recently been cutting into the cabin at deck level with the Fein. The glass is quite thick in the turn of the deck to cabin and at corners: 5/16 to 3/8", even thicker in some places.
But as you know the solid glass gives way to balsa core all of a sudden in the camber areas.


Hope it's a piece of cake. Save some slices for us and post a lot of'em.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________


For argument's sake:
The deck is a major player in monocoque construction. It is a MAJOR structural component of the boat.
The top of the deck, which is the most substantial strength layer of the deck sandwich, might be ideally removed as a SINGLE piece. The core underneath only adds thickness to cancel flex in the top lamination, and the inside layer of glass is primarily there to protect the core.
So, I believe that it is structurally better to remove large 'panels' rather than small ones. If that's correct, then as in A338, if I wished to recore from the top, I'd really have to support the deck underneath very well. And without too much upward pressure from the support itself.
If I did have to remove small sections and end up with a jigsaw type puzzle then it may be necessary to add permanent beams under the deck because it cannot anymore be considered a single piece structure as originally conceived.

It is pretty obvious that a LOGICAL procedure is to replace the core from underneath/inside. From my perspective, that's impossible and impractical.

Wonder what the boss will do.....?

[Tony G]

Gotta say I'd agree with Ebb, agian. If those decks are floppy skins bracing from below seems like a very logical point to proceed from. I too have spent many hours just looking and thinking what if... Before you evicerate her there are all kind of attachment points for underside bracing. One captain ran battons fore and aft then had braces with a close approximation of the deck camber running athwartship beneath the battons. If I recall it was so he could hot glue shims between them to get the correct support. then he peeled off the top. If I can find that website again I'll post a link.

[frank durant]

I got looking....think I'll support that forward center beam (for lack of a better discription) all the way along it's length.It it maintaining the proper highth I'm most worried about. From there to the sides should be OK. Man these are soft decks...and spots on the cabin top too. Oh well...in for a nickel...in for a dime :eek:

[mbd]

Great to see you back at it Frank!


Is the deck core 3/8th inch?

Don't know what material you're planning on using for the recore, but I used CoreCell A500 (B) 9MM from Noah's Marine (http://www.noahsmarine.com) up on your side of the border. Cuts and sands real easy too. :)

A-215 is a lucky boat - Re-Revival!

PS. Hey, do you mind if I ask where you got your trailer and how much? Feel free to PM me the info.

[frank durant]

Thanks. That's what I used on the Electra. I found it easy to work with. I'll be at Noah's tomorrow. The trailer was 'home built' by a welder for $3500 Canadian ($3010 USA funds today's rate) It is heavily built and towed well. He is in Windsor...right near Detroit. One way shipping was going to be more. This way I can take it to Florida when done. The trailer will be 'for sale' after that. Revival ain't coming back ;-)

[Commander 147]

Are you moving here or just plan to spend the winters here? I live an hour north of Tampa. Where will you be when here?

[frank durant]

Niether....when #215 is finished, I'll be trailering to Indiantown marina,launching,heading out and not coming back. Plan to store the boat 'on the hard' as we go. Plans are ...as of today...Bahamas to Cuba to Mexico on down to SanBlas islands. This is years away and plans change, but thats the intention now.

[Westgate]

Frank:

If anyone out there will get it done and be sailing off into the sunset it will be you my friend. Years back I spent a summer up your way at Camp Petawawa doing basic training. We used to go to "town" on days off. Fuzzy memories:o!

Nice job getting the boat back home!

Andrew

[frank durant]

Too funny...my work is in Petawawa and I grew up in this erea. Thanks f

[ebb]

You'll work SO hard.
When you're done the boat will be SO beautiful....
she'll take you back, Frank, she will...
she don't mean it - you'll come back....


Here in a rare video some white boys pay tribute to Ray Charles'
Hit the road Fra...Jack.
From the Text Comments, the 'old man' banging the keys and singing the lyrics is Gary Brooker, fabulous.
Frank Mead does a gut wrenching sax rif! Man, if I could lay varnish on like THAT!
and Eric Clapton rips the blues.

YouTube - Eric Clapton - Hit the road Jack (1989)
(type it into google just like that)

[check out the rockin rose bud on the piano]
That's what you are going there for:cool:
This the feel betta blues, boss!!!

[ebb]

http:www.lackeysailing.com/iota/iota.htm

That's Tim Lackey's site.
The boat is an east coast Triton,IOTA, that ended up having a complete recore.
Believe it is in the section called 'Completed Projects.'
As usual the treat is to follow Tim's forensics as he reveals his starts and stops and the long sufferings of a four decades old Pearson.

Frank knows what he is doing.
Yet Tim here has a huge number of photos that illustrate what Frank is getting himself into. For us onlookers.....

For those of us that haven't had to do it yet.
.....And of course an Ariel will present its own peculiar details because of its scantlings.
There's a pic of Tim holding up a piece of the IOTA's deck. It looks like armor plate!
By the way Tim did NOT replace the original deck pieces but laminated on a completely new top. Which indeed would be the strongest way, as everything can be tied in wet. Considering the number of layers and gallons to make up a 1/4" laminate, it's also the most expensive.

:rolleyes:Enjoy!
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
BUT how would you replace big piece deck panels:
ancient brain sez: Drill numerous 1/4" relief holes through-out the panel so that when pressed down into the epoxygel on top of the new core the extra gel will have a place to exit and there will be no trapped air bubbles. Holes won't weaken - and will already be filled!
Working with that much material means it'll have to be 60degrees ambient or lower!
imco

[frank durant]

Thanks for the 1/4 in" holes idea....good thought.The tunes ain't bad either...and the dancing rose :)

[epiphany]

I've been aboard "Kaholee", the boat next to "Iota" in the first few pics. *Great* work done there. Tim is incredible.

[Frenna]

I just found the picture of your lovely trailer. As per my new thread on keel dimensions, any chance you could throw a tape measure on that channel the keel sits in on the trailer?

I would love to know the inside width of it, and how much clearance is left between the sides and the keel where the keel is widest.

Also, looks like maybe the forward support had to be chopped and welded to hit the hull at a reasonable height, that so?

Thanks

[frank durant]

Frenna....sorry to be so late replying. "just" got home from Bahamas and drowned my computer about 3 weeks back. I'll be around her in a day or 2....will measure it then.

[Tony G]

Frank

It's been over a month since you've posted on this thread and that one had nothing to do with two fifteen. What gives? Throw us a bone, would ya?

I have been through a bunch of your posts (from a while back-eh hemm)scrounging ideas and insights. You've sent me all over the web to Flicka and Dana posts anywhere I can find them. I like the ideas you have for this upcoming refit. Now that you have had a while to think about it some more tell us where you're at. Any new ideas? Any features you've seen on other boats you would really like to build into 215? Come ooonnnn!

I'm attaching this photo that really has nothing to do with this other thaan maybe flushing you out of the cover you've been under:cool:

[frank durant]

Hi Tony

Sometimes "life" gets in the way ;-) We had a busy fall at work last year. I was building a cottage in the Bahamas from Nov. to March...came home to a crazy busy spring here. Not complaining and count my blessings in this economy. #215 sits waiting....trampoline decks,mold and all. This will be a much bigger project than the pictures show. Wanna make waves look small...take their picture. Wanna make a boat look good...take its picture. She is very bad.
Now the good news. I am presently preparing a gravel base for my new 'shop'. Won't happen tomorrow...but as with most things I do..once started , it'll go quick. Hoping once the base is ready to have the shop up and going within 3-4 weeks. Just trying to fit it in among numerous home sales. When its ready and #215 is inside.....out will come the saws. It won't be pretty. It will look real bad before it gets good. It will be radical yet simple. Hoping to start on the boat by august....hoping. Until then...think 'open', private head and not that complicated a major surgury....but major none the less. At times I've thought I was crazy getting her....then I remember #50 in big wind/waves.....gotta love these Ariels

[frank durant]

Nothing to do with sailing...but after a very nice spring...it's SNOWING here tonight. Calling for snow tomorrow as well. "global warming" ?

[Tony G]

Hi Tony

Sometimes "life" gets in the way ;-)
Watch out! Somethimes it's an imposter... You know what 'real' life is.:cool:

Never had the chance to have my soles graced by a Flicka or Dana so I can't speak from experience, but I have tried to 'sit' as if I were on a thunder throne in just about every concievable spot in a striped-out Ariel cabin. I could never find a spot were I could actually...uh...er...'go through the movements, I mean motions' within a realistic space. I was either pinned by a side deck or sticking my elbow out into the walkway. Having the main hatch as a defining landmark for a bulkhead was the most room I could get in the main cabin. Seriously thought about moving the sliding hatch starboard about 4-5 inches. That would give the requisit room for me. It wouldn't be that much work either. Who wouldn't like an enclosed head that would double as a shower too? Maybe I'll give it another whirl.

Do Flickas (Danas) have a more generous bilge? Maybe we'll have to try superimposing the hull shape of a Flicka in that area over the hull shape of an Ariel in the same area to see how much space we give up because of our slack bilges. I dunno:confused:

[frank durant]

Well Tony....Ebb. I just finished reviewing both your projects. Great work and creativity on both your parts. The reason I reviewed them (for the gazillienth time) was I am struggling with starting #215 or parting #215.
I had decided to "part" her. ALL the decks are bad. Much of the cabin roof as well. There are other serious issues. It is a huge undertaking (as both of you know) and I realize that if I start...I will never get my money nor time back !! I also realize that once "in"...I will question my sanity...often!!!
Hense the "part" her decision.
Then....I go for an easy little island hopping cruise here (Abacos) and like the old girlfriend ya just can't get out of your mind...I keep thinking "Ariel"
With the low freeboard they are SO easy on/off from the dingy. The shallow draft is great. They simply sail so darn well and handle big wind/waves like a champ. And...If started...the creativity is rewarding. Kinda like starting with close to a clean slate on systems and interior design (they need no help on ext. looks or hull shape!) You get a chance to do it "your way"
So....I look at both your projects and get both inspired...and scared.
You both know what I mean.
Decisions..........?????????

PS...Tony...I still think an aft head might work ;-)

[Tony G]

It's great to hear from you again, Frank! It's even better that you are still thinking about #215 as having that potential, and giving back that reward that only a project like her's can give. You did it before with Revival in a different time and a different place in life. These are such great little boats. You know that more than I do. So even though she is in bad shape, she's small, and because of that very character, easy to mend and less expensive to finish. What more can one say? She has waited patiently so far for a reason. I love #113 and, like others, have continually battled with having too many ideas to fit in the diminuative hull. Of course we will never get a 10th of our money out of these projects. But weigh that against what you do get out of it. Money really lacks when compared to these other things that have substance.

I know an aft head will work on these boats by simply moving the main hatch 5 to 6 inches off the center. The point I realized it was after I had built the sea hood and dodger coamings and thought it too late to change my plans. An interior much like a Dana could be had with a little less storage capacity. But that would make a realistic interior for a mini cruiser. You would not carry 3 months stores out of sight but a couple of weeks worth would be pretty easy.

What ever your choice, you will have my support, Frank. Just let me know if there is anything I can do.

[frank durant]

Thanks Tony. A huge part of the desire to restore her is the creativity doing it and the fun trying to "make things work". Revival got my feet wet. Then I did the Electra with bad decks and a holed keel. These boats simply sail so well. I think they are worth the effort. Looking at your project and Ebb's gets me inspired. Then the reality sets in....I'd be going in with "eyes wide open"...knowing the frustrations that come along with the satisfaction. The shop is built now. Once home I have to clean up 2 small projects before bringing her in for a once over. Will decide then....but it sure is hard gettin the ideas outta your head ;-)

[frank durant]

Found a few pics of a Flicka's head from outside and in. Gives an idea how small they can be. I'm not home yet to measure....but honestly think this will work on an Ariel. While it is small...it does offer a bit of privacy. some thing in life ya just don't want to share ;-)n_a



Just realized I don't know how to upload a darn pic!! ;-)

[frank durant]

Found a few pics of a Flicka's head from outside and in. Gives an idea how small they can be. I'm not home yet to measure....but honestly think this will work on an Ariel. While it is small...it does offer a bit of privacy. some thing in life ya just don't want to share ;-)

[frank durant]

another pic showing size

[Crazer]

I don't want to discourage you, so please consider this a list of items to consider, not a list of reasons why it can't be done.

As I recall, someone either here or on another forum was considering enclosing the head using the Flicka as a basis for the idea. The issues that came up were that the Flicka carries a wider beam further aft, the Ariel's large salon ports tended to get in the way of the forward bulkhead, and that the Ariel has a slack bilge relative to the Flicka (which is built more like a modern production boat, though she is full keel.) If you were willing to do an, in my opinion, inordinate amount of work to offset the companionway you could get more space to work with although that would create issues of its own. Again, I stress that I'm not try to discourage you, I'm just offering information based on previous efforts by others. I'm sure you can do it, it's just a matter of how many compromises will be made in the process.

I look forward to seeing progress on the boat, you are undertaking a worthy and noble task. I chickened out (I just couldn't afford it) on a full restoration but I still enjoy puttering around on my "new to me" Pearson. Projects like this let me live vicariously.

Take care,

Avery
Pearson Wanderer #102 "Loon"

[frank durant]

Thanks Avery. It may well not work....but I'm hopin ;-) I have cruised for several months on both of these boats and am familiar with the pros/cons. (post #81 was my flicka) It wil be close....but I still think doable. It isn't the beam....rather the wider side decks on our Ariels that make it more difficult. I remember using the Flickas head for over a month before figuring out how to come out with my pants up !! ;-) Having said that....while "on the throne" in a flicka...you were at the perfect elavation to look out the port!!

[Crazer]

I absolutely understand the impulse to try and fit an enclosed head. I came very close to buying an Ariel twice(!) but the lack of a private head was one of the issues I couldn't get past. I still think they're the prettiest boats on the water (next to the Triton.)

Avery

[frank durant]

Number 215 pulled out of my driveway tonight. It was being towed behind a grey Honda ridgeline...but not mine. In the end...youthful enthusiasim won out over jaded experience. Daniel MacDonal is the new owner. He has been on this site and I hope he joins. Being both 36 and a carpenter will no doubt give him 2 desirable qualities in a restoration. He only lives about 100 miles away and I have offered to answer any-all questions during the process. I wish him well. As we hooked 215 up...I told him Revival was the finest sailing boat I have ever had offshore. I meant it! Good luck to him.

[carl291]

Hi Frank, Gosh I know the turmoil you went through on deciding what to do. How did you make out with the Electra? Did you get it down to the islands and leave it there for future use as you had planned or did it not work out? Carl