Commander #256 (Ceili)

[Chance]

Here CEILI, 1966 Commander #256, can be seen taken a highway rest on her journey to N.E. North Carolina from Falmouth, ME.

[Stephan]

Congratulations, Chance! You got your Commander after all! Looking forward to seeing it next season when I travel through your parts.

Stephan

[mbd]

Nice boat - nice trailer too! Was that included in your purchase or did you get it for the haul?

[Chance]

Stephan,
Thanks! I too, am most definately looking forward to you passing these parts with your Commander 35 (Alberg 35) next year. Don't forget, I want to crew for you at some point along your voyage. There are many cruisers coming through Elizabeth City, NC. They depart the Chesapeake Bay, heading South and most opt to take the Dismal Swamp canal route into the Albemarle Sound for the southerly route. Elizabeth City has great maritime hospitality and offers 48 hour free tie up at the town's waterfront! Most times you can stay longer if their isn't a demand for space to accomodate travelers. Also, if the tie ups are full, there is also a marina across the way (Pelican Marina) and there is also (preferred) great anchorage in the area for those that want to drop the hood and row ashore for a bite to eat.

Mike,
Thanks. No, the trailer didn't come with her. I had her made for a previous boat we had, a 1973 Cape Dory 25. In order to accomodate the extra draft of the Commander, I cut all six screw jack supports off and welded in new ones with greater height. I used heavier guage pipe (schedule 80) vice what Triad trailers used. I only wish I would have made the new supports a bit less tall. I still have eight inches of upward adjustability but as you can see, am nearly bottomed out as she is currently configured. Which means....when I get to the hull, I won't be able to complete her without her being off the trailer, which means I'll be under the daily fee rate of the local yard.
I plan on making the trailer available for rent next year after I have Ceili back in the water.

Respectfully,
Chance

[Stephan]

Chance, I'd be delighted to have you on board. Next season will be an exciting time for me.
I'll keep the board updated while I'm cruising through the lakes etc and hope to rendezvous with some of the old timers here. Commander Pete, I have plans to hang around New York some time then, too. Hope to find you!

[bill@ariel231]

Chance
nice trailer... can we talk you into posting a drawing package?:)

[Chance]

Hello all,
I'll use this thread to maintain progress on the work I'm embarking upon with our Commander. To commence, I have focused my efforts in the stern section and will progressively move forward. For now, this is what I'm doing:

1) Fill over 3 dozen holes (drilled by PO's).
2) Repair / restore fiberglass that was cut out for previous outboard motor tiller.
3) Remove and replace backstay chainplate and knee.
4) Fabricate a gas can shelf on each side of the motor well
5) Incorporate a transom stringer, that will double as the aft shelf support
6) Recore and skin the lazarette locker cover

What I'm missing and in need of your help to locate a source is the following:

1) Rubber gasket for the knife edge seal for the lazarette cover and forward hatch.

2) One (1) clamshell ventilator (aka: extractor). I have only one of the two originals. A PO installed a PERKO, which as you can imagine is a hideous match.

Heres a couple of photos, and more to follow as progress is made

Respectfully,
Chance Smith
Camden, NC

[Chance]

Hello All,
Here's a question I have been pondering for the future winch mounting task I will be tending to:
How are winches mounted to a solid wood island? I have been walking the marinas and have identified some very shapely (tapered both to the top and others tapered to the bottom), but don't understand how you would mount the winches to the wood and then the wood islands (base of the block of shapely wood) to / through the deck. I do remember someone once suggested through bolting with all thread, but I don't think that would work on a tapered base, plus I think you need FH fasteners for the winch.
Would bolts with nuts even be required? Could long wood screws be used to fasten both?
Any body out there have wooded winch bases they have disassembled and reinstalled that could shed some light on this for me?

Thanks,
Chance

[Commander227]

Chance,
I am about to do away with my aft lazarette, send me a message with your address and I'll send down the clam shell thingys, I'll also try my best to remove the gasket material with out damaging it. It probably won't be enough, but perhaps you can add up some good sections. Too bad you already went through all the work of recoring the lid... I could have just sent you my whole assembly. How are your hinges?
long wood screws(like 2") will work great for your winch towers. Be sure to predrill with the proper size drill bit. If you are laminating the towers from like 1" wood stock, try to get through the first 2 layers. Also be sure to use wood screws, not long sheet metal screws. The thread pitch and depth are different as well as the shaft taper.

[ebb]

Admiral Bill may not have seen this thread.

I believe a gasket set is available at cost from the Association that replicates the original.
And on another thread here a poster shows us another version of the 'knife edge' gasket that has a compressible foam 'rope' on the top. Looks very interesting.

[Chance]

Bill,
Ariel #231, I somehow overlooked your post and didn't want you to think that I was ignoring you. Hmmm.., what specifically were you interested in as for the trailer drawing? I'm thinking you want measurements, but of what specifically? I can take measurements, but of the entire profile might take a bit of time. Plus, I have no idea how to post a sketch. Maybe I could take a closeup digital photo of a sketch depicting specific dimensions? Are you planning on modifying an existing trailer, building one from scratch? How soon till you do either or are you mainly curious?

Respectfully,
Chance

[mbd]

How are winches mounted to a solid wood island?Hi Chance, sorry, I had a reply all written out today and must have failed to hit "submit". The winch itself is attached to the wood base by 8 wood screws though the base of the winch. If you remove those and the winch from the wood base, a loooong bronze carriage bolt goes all the way through and into the deck where it is secured with a big washer and a nut. Also, the wood winch base is attached to the coaming by 4 wood screws through the coaming.

[Rico]

Chance
nice trailer... can we talk you into posting a drawing package?:)



Bill, See Post # 11 on The Mephisto Cat's thread...
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1552

For trailer / Cradle dimensions. This may give you what you need...

[bill@ariel231]

chance & rico

i'm mostly curious about the dimensions of the frame members, the ratings on your axle setup and the tongue load of the system when ready to tow... it's getting harder to prep a boat for the season while in the boatyard (DEM talked about treating city water as a hazardous material until some measure of sanity prevailed). Building a trailer may be in my future a season or two down the road. I've already welded up a set of jackstands suitable for trailer installation.

cheers,
bill@ariel231 :)

[ebb]

As a curmudgeon there are certain responsibilities that cannot be ignored.

Take the first photo in this thread.
Imagine Ceilli sitting on a FRAME with jackstands.
Imagine that frame sitting on the trailer.
A duo.

Why couldn't a transport trailer be designed for Ariel/Commanders
- and for that matter any number of 8' wide keeled sailboats -
upon which the boat on a 'standard' frame could be loaded.

How might it be loaded?
The frame would be lifted with bottle jacks - and the trailer carefully, by repositioning the jacks, backed under the frame.
With the boat on its frame - all 6000# of it - lifting and lowering would be equally..... careful.
With some development screwjacks might be permanently attached to the frame, or perhaps brackets provided for rentals to be secured. Other endless possibilities.
Wouldn't it be possible for a bunch of sailors to get together and design something like this?

This is of course only for transport, not self-launching.
Would it give versatility to storing or working on the boat at any location
and moving it to a harbor for strap launching?


If there were a single trailer made specifically for hauling A/C boats with jackstands on a frame, then that trailer might be shared by all who wanted to borrow it.
Of course who licenses it, does the maintenance and researches the codes and so forth
is another kettle.
Just an idea....

[c_amos]

Ebb,

Many moons ago I helped A-243's Capt move her. It might have found great favor in Rube Goldberg's eyes.... but it worked.

The boat was loaded with a travel lift, but to remove it we anchored the trailer (with a danforth) and used bottle jacks to lift the cradle and place short pieces of black iron pipe under if. We then lowered it onto the pipe and SSSSSLLLLlllooooowwwwlllllyyyyyy...... drove the trailer out from under it. The cradle was then blocked as it rolled clear.

Not recommending anyone try this at home, just saying it is possible.

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3756&stc=1&d=1164132891

[Chance]

I finally got the backstay chainplate knee epoxied in and will follow with glass layup. I performed an initial dry run and marked where the five bolts will be. I then drilled these locations out to 3/4 of an inch and filled with high density epoxy (now seen in the photo). Later when I conduct the final mounting and bolting in of the new chainplate, I will redrill through the epoxy and glass, thus sealing off the Okoume marine ply from any potontial water intrusion. For me, I can finally say I have made a bit of progress in the right direction. So far I have been grinding, sanding, probing, and the likes.
Commander 227: I posted a reply to your gallery page, in regards to extreme interest in the hinges, clam shell ventilators and any gasket you can salvage. Thanks, Chance Smith, 472 N. Trotman Road, Camden, NC, 27921

[ebb]

Craig, Amazing! Can see that a longer frame might have made bottle jacking easier. Must have been a bit hairy... have to write the book on the subject!

Nice clean filleting there, Chance!
Years ago I found my favorite fillet tool in a take-one bucket at the Buttercreme Bakery in Napa.

It's a bit small, a precise piece of plastic maybe a little bigger than 2 1/2" square with a different radius on each corner. Translucent plastic like nylon with very SHARP edges that drag very clean coves. Never understood why a bakery would give away something like this or what anyone who bought their jelly donuts there would need one for.
No plastics supply store has anything like it.

[Chance]

Okay, the cockpit has seemed to shrink. Competeing for the same space, my little body, masses of tools, and related stuff, shop vac, trash, and everthing else! Someday, I too, will be able to enjoy the breadth of the Commander's cockpit, but for now, I'll just be contect on working on her and putting new life into her.
Ebb, Thanks for the compliment. I know exactly what your talking about. The "special tool", though I have several, they don't have a great history as yours does. For me, it does pay to know when to stop fiddling and leave the fillet well enough alone. The more I mess with them, the worse they seem to get. The right consistancy of the thickened expoxy is a big factor as well.
Respectfully,
Chance

[Chance]

Here's another view. The axles are each rated for 3500 pounds, for a 7K total GVWR. I utilize a weight distribution hitch and load the tongue upwards of 800 pounds (safely only possible with this type of hitch system). The keel rest on 2 1/2 inches of treated wood, instead of dirrectly on the iron channel. If I were to weld all the tubing and braces again for the screw jacks, I would have made them six inches shorter, well at least the amidship and forward ones. The aft, I would shorten only four inches, as I already have threads exposed. She towes well. Now it's semi permanently parked, waiting for her vessel to play catch up with some much needed TLC, and structural repairs.

[bill@ariel231]

Thanks for the details... Triad makes a good trailer. they'll be on my short list when the time comes...:)

[Chance]

Here is the knee glassed in. Today, I filled the weave with unthicked epoxy and also worked in other areas of the lazarette locker playing recovery from the myriad of holes PO's put in her.

[Chance]

Another area of the locker that I have been slowly making right.

[Chance]

Now, the question is: where do I sit?

[Chance]

Hello folks,
Yes, it's been awhile, I know. One would think that lively in N.E. North Carolina it would be epoxy working weather year around, but..... it's been cold these past couple of months. We'll in the low 40's and 30's, which makes me resort to planning and waiting for warmer weather to press on with my work in store for "Ceili", Commander #256.
Attached is what I have elected to do to modify the forward bulkhead. I choose to bridge the top to for a couple of reasons, I believe it gives a more finished appearance and like the profile better, and secondly it provides a source to reinforce and further stiffen the foredeck area.
I have been addressing other areas as well....like filling in the old cockpit instrument holes following the removal of said gear, filling in holes in the hull left by two transducers I have removed, as well as a garboard drain.
I'll try to keep a better update for those who may be interested in my progress.
As to you all, thank you all for the continued inspiration, expertise and resource how to information. Quite frankly, the two most beautiful boats ever produced by Pearson, Commanders and Ariels.

[Chance]

Here's an inside view of the closing off of two old instrument holes. I tapered both sides and worked at patching from both sides. I choose this way so that my scarf taper would not have to be so big on just one side.

[carl291]

Very nice work Chance, It seems that bridging the forward bulkhead is so simple that Pearson would have done this to brace the foredeck. This is something I had planned on doing also. If you decide to add a Sampson post the deck is now well braced for one.

[Chance]

Carl,
Thank you. I believe the reason why Pearson did not do the same in regards to bridging the forward bulkhead, comes down to economics mainly. I'm sure they (Pearson Yachts) like all others build a specific model with a price point and corresponding profit margin. Easy to do, add the bridge or do it from the onset, but it takes that much more time and material for what many may consider "little gain". Just like other areas of our fine Alberg designed Commanders and Ariels, when Carl was commisioned to design a specific model, he most likely was given parameters, final production cost, being one of them. I think the fitment would have been problematic if they had added the full forward bulkhead and then attempted to lower the deck / cabin roof assembly. Look at other areas of our vessels and you'll see, and like others will attest to, where fitment of ajoining components has a lot to be desired and could have been much better.
But then there are us on this site and all those who seek to "Better" or "Improve" or are striving for the ultimate in "Attention to the Details" and annointed perfectionest that are equally talented to do what Pearson and their factory boat yard assembly builders did not do. It really comes down to "time" and "money" and they are both inter-related.
I'm sure Mr. Alberg and all the folks who contributed to our aging vessels birth would be amazed, and surprised that "our" Commanders and Ariels have such a dedicated following, with owners / Captains that desire the very best for their corresponding "sailing yacht".
To all those on this site, I salute you for your inspiration, talent and most of all sharing your expertise and thoughts.

[Chance]

For reasons I now would never do again, I have been addressing the rotten core under the mast step, from you guessed it, inside the cabin. What was I thinking? My next recore of any sort will always rely on gravity and working upright, if...I have a choice in the matter.
This area of my rehab has been slow going, and an adventure to say the least.
I have at this time, addressed all rotten core in the cabin roof, and am in the final stages of glassing the inner skin. Here's what I call my arsenal of "spring sticks" in use.

[ebb]

congratulations on an impossible job!

On A338, was lucky and only had the mast step area to redo.
But I saw then that the inside of the sandwich was very thin.
If I had to do it now I would make a version of what you have BUT as support for the thin interior layer in case it wanted to sag or tear or something.
THEN do the recore from the top.

NICE wood for props there. buddy!:D

[Chance]

Ebb, your are so right. At times I contemplated on how I was going to tackle the recore from down under and looking back, should have kicked myself before removing the inner skin. All along it would have been so much more pleasant (if you can call the recore process pleasant) to do it from the outside.
Here is two shots of a smaller recore area I had to address due to rotten balsa core. The cause: (like so many other areas I'm taking care of) an inproperly mounted cabin top winch.

[Chance]

I decided to address an area that I wasn't satisfied with:

1st: I felt the forward hatch was not rigid enough to support the weight of an adult standing on it.

2nd: There seemed to be more flex in the hatch cover than I preferred

3rd: I never liked the translucent area of the forward hatch. It shows the glass fibers and as it has aged, appears as though the fibers are lacking resin. I know that my modification will eliminate the "light" that would otherwise come through, but it's a compromise I'm willing to settle with.


So.... I incorporated 3/8 " end grain balsa core and an inside lay up of three layers of cloth. The hatch pictured and that I'll be using, is one I salvaged off the 1965 Commander. This hatch had a heavier (thicker) glass layup to start with and had less damage to repair and no previous owner's holes to repair.

[Commander227]

Chance,
Did you salvage any inner window frames? I'm in need of one.
Mike

[Chance]

Hello Mike,
Yes, I can supply you with an inner portlight frame. Give me the details of where to ship (address) and I'll have it off to you this coming week.
Happy Easter!

[ebb]

You do beautiful work there Chance.

Somebody's going to come along here and discover that recoring CAN be done successfully from the inside - hanging by your thumbs. And there are good reasons for the choice. You certainly show that a perfect job of work is possible.

I admire your choice of core as well.
Fits with the time and age of the boat and is more in keeping with restoration. imco
Nice to see.

Thanks for the photos!

[Chance]

Ebb,
Thank you for the compliments. My inspiration and desire for quality work comes from a couple areas: a personal interest in attention to detail, the fact that I enjoy working at fixing, making better, and any thing that involves my little wood shop, now gone fiberglass. But if it weren't for folks like you, Tim Lackey and so many others, and a passion for sailing, I doubt that I would have ever agreed to undertake such a project.
Below are two photos of an area that I have been also addressing. I discovered that the lower perimeter of the Commander's motor well had a significant thickness of gelcoat. It seems that when the layup was started in the mold and the gelcoat was put in, they (Pearson layup workers) allowed too much gelcoat to collect in this area. The tell tale sign of trouble and which ultimately led me to grind away over an inch of this area was cracks around the entire perimeter of the motor well.
Gel coat is good, but it's downfall is realized when excess thickness occurs. It's too brittle and of not much substance. This is why I had massive cracking along the lower edge of the motor well.
I didn't reach glass until I ground away over 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch of blue gel coat. The second photo shows my rebuild of this area. Though not complete yet, I'm nearing the final stages and will once again be good to go.

[Westgate]

Chance:

I have to do a similar job to my motorwell/hull contour.

Any tips on producures and specific techniques would be most welcome. In particular how did you maintain that nice sharp edge between the side of the motor well and where it mets the hull? I have thought of a few ideas but would love to hear what you did.

Nice job,

Andrew

[Chance]

Andrew,
Thanks for your interest.
I used MAS epoxy, Biaxial cloth, milled fiberglass fibers, and West System high density 404 filler.

After grinding and establishing a good base:
Coat area with unthickened epoxy
Fill low spots, and make the roundover contour uniform with thickened epoxy and milled glass fibers
Sand smooth and apply three layers of Biaxial cloth
Sand rough / high spots
Apply thickened epoxy with milled glass fibers
Continue numerous applications
Once you get close / back to the area where you'll want the crisp sharp edge, start applying your mixture with a little more grace
Trick here: Go beyound where you want the edge to be and then grind back down to the hull.
Trick: for the corners, use a 1 inch wooden dowel rod and 60 grit paper. This will make a perfectly shaped /contoured corner. Sure you'll be using hand power, and it will take a bit of time, but it really comes out nice.
When I'm grinding, I use a 40 grit flapper disc wheel to perform the grunt of the work. Then transition to a 5 inch random orbital sander with 60 grit, followed by 80 grit and then 100 grit. Final sanding will be done by hand with a block of wood, my dowel (described above) and 120 grit. Lastly two more coats of unthickened epoxy, light sand and ready for paint.

I had initially thought of building a form, but decided for numerous reasons against it. Please keep in mind that it took me numerous applications to rebuild the corner edge that I had removed when I initially ground away all the cracked gel coat. I really could not believe how much gel coat was there. I kept asking myself when will I reach glass? No kidding!

Hope this helps.

[carl291]

Chance,
Since you are back to working this area, The new larger knee you put in, Have you given any thought to this interfering with engine clearance? The reason I ask is mine seems to interfered with the clearance and had a large "chunk" of glass knock out which of course allowed water in and will now have to be replaced.
Carl

[Chance]

Hi Carl,
That's a good point. I noticed that when I was examining the original backstay chain plate knee, that it too, had an area that was cut with a handsaw to make a relief for the outboard. Esentially exposing the plywood underneath, not to mention looking terrible. Of course when Pearson built her, the top of the knee was not fully encapsulated with glass and epoxy either, so any water leaking in from the chain plate cover would and did easily saturate the plywood.
As for my new knee I glassed in, actually it's probably only 1/4 of an inch larger for and aft, meaning I really didn't go forward off the transom much more than original. I did however extend her down about and inch and half (my measurements are best guesses at this point) beyound original. I generally kept the same profile.
The previous owner had a 9 HP outboard, way too big. This explains why they hacked other areas as well.
I will placing a 6 HP Tohatsu in her, (for size and weight considerations) and believe this will fit just fine, with no clearance issues.
What size of outboard did or do you have that there were clearance issues with the knee?
Thanks for the input. As you well know, any little project always seems to creep in size and sometimes can reveal a magnitude of challenges to overcome.
I also have not heard of any others out there that have had clearance problems if using an appropriate size (smaller) outboard.
Keep me posted on your efforts to restore you knee.

[Westgate]

Chnace:

Thanks for the how to. Will come in very handy if I ever find the time to get back to the boat!

Andrew

[Chance]

Here's the profile template I made out of bass wood. I'll be taking this to a shop to have duplicated out of 3/8 inch thick 316 stainless steel plate. I'll keep you posted and post a photo when that phase is done.

Some will also notice another modification I made to the forward hatch cover. I didn't care for how the original latch bolt was attached (you know, through bolted. Plus the FH fasteners were backwards. If you ever removed the piece you know what I'm talking about). My solution was to omit the through bolt phase and instead I made this mounting pad that I tapped to accept the #12 FH machine screws. I think it cleans up the whole area and will leave the top exterior of the hatch free from any fasteners.

[Commander227]

Thanks for the package Chance, I really appreciate it!

[Chance]

Mike, your welcome.

Here's a photo after having removed the garboard drain from the hull and have laid the glass to fill the hole. I am no in the final fairing stage and will post a photo when that phase is done. I also removed two transducers and filled those corresponding holes as well. I will drill and install one transducer for the depth instrument later in a better location than the one that was formerly.

[Chance]

I'm consulting those of you who have had chrome work done on your deck hardware and who were very satisfied with the results of who performed the chroming service for you.

I have my stemhead fitting and the stern light cover that needs re-chroming and would like recommendations on who I should contact and ultimately send these parts to.

For those of you who would be willing to refer me, please provide the name of the chroming company, their phone number (address would be of help too) and perhaps a point of contact.

Thanks for your assistance.

[Chance]

Here is the two areas I have finally finished and will prime and paint later when other areas are ready as well.

[Lucky Dawg]

For those of you who would be willing to refer me, please provide the name of the chroming company, their phone number (address would be of help too) and perhaps a point of contact.


Hey Chance - no one bit at this yet - I used Dynamic Custom Chrome http://www.dynamiccustomchrome.com/index2.html in the Detroit area. Don't know that I would bend over backwards to refer to them. My little job was extremely low on their priority list and it took a good while to turn it around. If nothing else, you might use them for a cost comparison. I think Rico (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1803&page=4 - see post 19) and C227 (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1803&page=4 - see post 71) both had recent chrome work done and seemed happy with their purveyors.

[SkipperJer]

Shipping heavy metal stuff outside of your area could get costly. If you can find people into restoring old cars and motorcycles, they'll know. Welders would be another good source. They'll know the platers and their prices locally.

Environmental regulations have made plating a very difficult and expensive business to be in. Recent generation cars don't use as much chrome either. I've been told that there used to be many choices in Baltimore area and now its down to 1 or 2 in all of Maryland. I'll dig up an address for you but I'll bet you can find a resource in NC.

[Commander227]

Chance,
I was very happy with my plater. Easy to work with small hole in the wall shop. One of my inner port light frames did take a ride through his buffing machine however (thanks for the replacement!) I just picked up my Genoa tracks and cars from him today and they look great.

J & D Custom Plating
2124 Gilbert Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55104
651-251-7400

A flat rate priority box from the US Postal service is a great way to ship heavy stuff.
Your fiberglass and core work look first rate! wanna move to the frozen tundra for a low paying job?
Mike
C227

[Chance]

Kyle, and Mike- Thank you for your platers information. It has always been my intent to spend my dollar with businesses that have proved to do good work and are familiar with the small guy. IMHO the best way to identify those folks are through referrals. Thanks again. (Mike, appreciate the comments on my work. The thought of working at a private marina is very appealing, however the words "frozen tundra" remind me of my four years with Operation Deepfreeze and my 24 months down in Antarctica at McMurdo Station. I'll have to think about it. Good Day!

Jerry- Thanks for your input, and I understand your points as well.

Okay, here's two more photos, one of the Port AFT mooring cleat on location and the second photo of it's corresponding backing plate that I glassed in.

[mbd]

A glassed in AND filleted FRP backing plate! Verry verrry nice... :D

[SkipperJer]

Chance,

The invitation to come up in October and sail the Good Old Boat Regatta with me is still open but you should be aware that I do not have backing plates that look like they were installed by a cosmetic surgeon. As a matter of fact, I have been known to sail pretty darn ugly at times. By your standards, it looks like I sail ugly all the time. Get ready to get ugly, Chance. Or bring your tools!:D

Looking forward to seeing you in October, Dr. Smith.

[Chance]

Jerry, your comments had me rolling with laughter, thanks for making my evening. If you saw my work area and associated mess, It could only be described as "ugly". I envy all those who have what I call "operational" Commanders and Ariels who can acutally go out an sail. Someday, I too, will have a boat I can sail, but for know I can only dream of that future date and continue to make progress, however slow it may be. And of course....accept any and all invitations to sail with others. I do and will be crewing for you in October, minus the tools. Seriously though, if something comes up and I can assist while I'm up there, I will not hesitate to offer up my humble and feable efforts.

Mike,
Your "Sea Glass" is truely very, very nice. You are so fortunate to have a great vessel out waiting for you on the mooring. Thanks for the feedback.

[ebb]

recore, filleted backing plates
AND ALL DONE UPSIDE DOWN!:D

[Chance]

Here is a shot earlier in the cabin recore, what a mess, too bad gravity wasn't in my favor, or at least it didn't keep it out of my face. I'm happy to now be working on recoring areas around the chain plates, and from experience, I'm doing it from the top. So much easier!

[SkipperJer]

Old time cabinet makers considered it bad luck to put away their tools and clean up before the piece they were working on was finished. A clean bench could indicate you weren't good enough to get any more work. I keep telling my wife the mess in the garage is the sign of a master craftsman. If I related her response to that our good moderator would probably take this post down.

[kendall]

That's what I've always said, never put away the tools till the work is done.
For some reason, if I put the tools away before a test run, it never fails, I need to dig them out again....

Ken

[Chance]

Hello All,
First photo is of my finally taking action on yet another area needing attention. It is such a joy to work upright now, and even though it is recoring, I have gained significant experience in working with the end grain balsa to re-core some areas. I also cored (my own modification of sort) my forward hatch and the sliding companion way hatch. Now I'll be able to stand on top of them without any flex. I'll post photos of them later.
The second photo is following cleaning out all the deteriorated end grain balsa, and top of the inner skin and my sealing the perimeter void and laying the first layer of 17 oz before I move onto the balsa.
Thankfully this is the extent of coring promblems for me on the starboard side, isolated to the amidship area. The port side is only half as much, but the work is still about the same. Of note: The decks on my commander are cored almost to the aft end of the cockpit coamings. At first I was surprised to learn this, but am thankful for two things, the core is in great condition and the deck is very stiff.
The third photo is a prelude to what I'm doing up on the foredeck. Here is part of my profiled anchor platform in 316 stainless. More to follow.

Take care.

[Commander 147]

First let me say from the previous pictures you posted you do top notch work. Recoring from the bottom and making it look as good as you did is impressive.

I am looking at some of the same recoring work on Destiny. I'm trying to learn by reading everything I can find and from what I have read so far many people clean the bottom skin, wet it out with unthickend epoxy and then lay down a layer of thickened epoxy to set the balsa core into. Then then after sanding the balsa smooth on top the balsa core is wet out with unthickened epoxy and sealed and then a coule of layers of 1708 biaxial mat is put down to recreate the top skin (if you are not reusing the old top skin). After which the fairing process begins.

Here is my question. You mentioned putting down a layer of biaxial prior to the balsa going in. Are you using thinner balsa than what was originally used? Unless I'm not understanding the process correctly I would think that would raise the core to much and make it hard to fair into the old deck. I'm trying to learn and your input would be helpful to me.

[Rico]

Chance - GREAT work!
I'd be happy to find my chrome plater's contact details if you are in a bind choosing a plater... Please let me know.
Keep in mind that he is located in Los Angeles.

We are so far away that I imagined that the high shipping costs would negate any price advantage in this case. Logistics might be an issue too... I would have been happy to walk the plater through the job for you if I was close by, but I've since moved away from LA...

[Chance]

Commander 147 (your name?)
Thanks for the kind feedback. Okay here's my humble response to your recore comments:
1) The inner skin is prepared by sanding / grinding it clean. This process does remove some of the glass and the inner skin was already very, very thin. When I recored from the inside, I was working from top skin inward, and the top skin is much thicker and in my judgement didn't need a prep layer of glass before proceeding with the core. But... the inner skin, especially on the amidship side decks was way thin (again in my humble opinion and experience) so I chose to lay one layer in before the core.
2) I chose not to use the outer skin I removed because upon removal I had to flex it a bit more than I would have liked, and it stressed the layers and to a small degree compromised the outer skin layer layup. Also, the outer skin, upon removal does not come up easily at the outer perimeter of where the rotten core is. It's the extreme perimeter that I incountered good solid core and the associated excellent bond between the core and outer skin. Prying this area up tore part of the outer skin which stayed adhered to the core. This caused the outer skin to be of various thickness. The core in the deck is 3/8 inch. Note: the core in the lazarette motor well cover is 1/2 inch.
3) The core, even though it is 3/8 of an inch, actually is thinner on the inboard and outboard sides (near the cabin sides and toe rail). In essense the core was tapered on the sides, when Pearson did the maiden layup of
the deck. Regardless had I not added a layer of cloth in before the core, I would still have to much balsa core (thickness at the sides) and either way will have to sand it down before proceeding with the outer skin layup.
Honestly, I would prefer to build up new, either inner or outer skin, whichever applies, rather than use the old.
4) When I laid in the one layer of 17 oz on the inner skin, I did so with little to no thickened epoxy. None was needed. My prep of the original inner skin left it very smooth (well 60 grit smooth) and I simply used unthickened epoxy to wet out the cloth an install. I did however, use thickened epoxy with mill glass fibers added to the inboard and outboard areas that I removed the old balsa core (this was the extreme tapered areas, and is definately not 3/8 of an inch to the extreme widths). Also, when I made my cuts, I cut about 1 and half inches in from the extreme sides, this allows me to taper in a proper reskin, hence the bevel.

Thanks.

[Chance]

Rico,
Thank you kindly for your offering up your chromer, but I won't be seeking a shop on the other coast.

Hey, have you mounted your new T track for your headsail combinations? You mentioned a while back, with great prelude photos, of where you may install the genoa track. I'll be installing my 8 foot genoa track in the future, still undecided at this point. IMHO there is no one right place and all others wrong. It seems there is some minor variance (on top of the toe rail, or on the deck) and both have pros and cons that I can see.

Will you keep your cabin top mounted tracks (the ones just outboard of where your once upon a time handrails where mounted) for your working jib?

Mephisto Cat sure is beautiful! and very motivating for those of us who are working on our own labor of love.

[Commander 147]

My name is Jerry Carpenter. As you can probably guess with a name like Carpenter I have had a hard time staying away from woodworking (not that I have tried to because I really enjoy woodworking) but working with fiberglass is new to me. So I really appreciate your explaination about your recore project.

I've been reading the plastic classic forum and Tim Lackey there recommends not reusing the skins and just doing new glass like you are planning. I look forward to seeing your completed project. I know based on the previous projects you have shared here that it will be well done.

Now that my shelter is built for me to work in I plan to spend a couple hours each night working on Destiny to get her ready for fall when prime sailing season returns to Florida. I have a lot to learn and a lot to do between now and then.

[Rico]

Rico,

Hey, have you mounted your new T track for your headsail combinations? You mentioned a while back, with great prelude photos, of where you may install the genoa track. I'll be installing my 8 foot genoa track in the future, still undecided at this point. IMHO there is no one right place and all others wrong. It seems there is some minor variance (on top of the toe rail, or on the deck) and both have pros and cons that I can see.

Will you keep your cabin top mounted tracks (the ones just outboard of where your once upon a time handrails where mounted) for your working jib?

Mephisto Cat sure is beautiful! and very motivating for those of us who are working on our own labor of love.

Chance - thank you for your comments! I am still deep in the installation process for the headsail track. I've made and painted some nice backing plates out of Aluminum plate and I will be drilling holes in the deck tomorrow! {'Shudder'}

I've sought some advice on all the pros & cons and I think I have a good set-up planned...
I'll be using a 4' length of track on the deck as the headsail workhorse track. (Winds in the bay are very consistent!) These will be used for my small stormsail and mostly for my working jib (100%). This set up will keep me from using the extreme ends of the track and will allow some flexibility in case I run into a slightly different cut sail needing a bit of a different trim angle / block location.

I will keep the tracks I have on the cabintop as spares. They are nicely located and easily reachable from within the cockpit. As such, they will be used mostly as convenient blocks for the storm sail when/if needed. I also may use them with the 100% if it is really blowing as they provide an easily accessible location that provides a nicely open jib top releasing lots of air. But mostly for the storm jib.

The genoa track will be a long (one piece) track mounted on the toe rail. This will provide flexibility for any size of large headsails I may run into. Certainly for my current sails (a 135% and my migthy 180%).

This set-up will keep my scuppers clear & unobstructed and will also provide a great attachment point for lines / fenders once I get myself a nice pair of schaefer cleats (Schaefer has a model that fits/slides right on the track).

This is the scheme (- so far today!) especially since I do not have lifeline stanchions to worry about...

I'll post some pictures soon.

[Chance]

Here's a couple more photos of the port and starboard amidship deck recore zones and some work I'm doing up on the foredeck.

Jerry (Carpenter), I'm sure you'll do fine with your Commander's glass work. By the looks of your boat shelter, she will be nicely taken care of while you learn and perform the work you intend to do. Reading and learning from others is a good start, but I have also found that sometimes practical application and practice is the best way to learn. Enjoy your endeavors and keep us posted.

Rico,
I have no doubt your genoa and jib sail deck mounted track installations will be nothing short of superb! I'm looking forward, as always, to your post with photos. Can you post a photo of the underside of your track mounting as well? Thanks.

[Chance]

Another area of the foredeck getting attention. For those that notice, the hex head bolt partially inserted in the cleat is just for alignment and to keep the cleat from being bumped around. I use scrap fasteners when I'm doing epoxy work and only upon final assembly use the correct fasteners. The actual fastener is four (4) 3/8 inch flat heads.

[Commander 147]

Sweet :-)

Your work looks very professional Chance.

[Chance]

FOR SALE- COMMANDER #256 WITH 2008 TRIAD TRAILER.
Do to a turn of events over a period of time, I am hesitantly placing my commander and trailer on the market.

First let me say that I no longer have a home computer, as I write this I'm at the public library. Because of this I have limited access to receive and respond via the internet. Best method, for me, is over the phone or in person.

Now the details:
Hull # 256
Year: 1966
Purchased in October of 2008 and hauled down from Falmouth, ME.
From inception, under my stewardship, she has been out of the weather, both rain and shine, and has her own boat port on my property.
It was my intent to direct all my spare resources, money and time, to giving her a new lease on life, which I have done for the past two years.
-All recoring complete and outer or inner as appropriate, faired smooth.
-All holes penetrating the hull have been properly glassed in, and faired, both inside and out.
-All chain plates were removed and new installed.
-Exclusive use of epoxy for all repairs / modifications.
-Exclusive use of Okume marine plywood was used where required.
-Forward cabin sole removed, and new compression post base installed.
-New compression post custom fabricated and has been fitted but not permanently installed.
-New bulkheads installed.
-Stock monel potable water tank still intact and in place.
-Removed sink and corresponding cabinet. Still have in garage if wanted.
-Cut out all fiberglass tubes and properly glassed in holes.
-New Teak hand rails have been made and properly fitted to contour of cabin roof, however not installed.
-Had port / starboard running lights re-anodized.
-Have new Schaefer mainsheet handling system with custom teak base. Not installed but, teak base has been fitted for contour of lazarette deck.
-Custom anchor platform machined from solid 3/8 thick 316 stainless steel plate
-Custom anchor platform supports of G-10 garolite installed.
-Custom anchor chain hause pipe of G-10 garolite installed.
-Foredeck modified for two (2) 10 schaefer deck cleats with G-10 garolite base. (This permits for both anchor and dock line fairleads)

The main thing remaining is the rudder needs addressed. Either replaced or fixed.
All the hardware needs reinstalled.
I have no main sail for her.
I have no outboard motor for her.

Price for both the commander and trailer: $5,000.00

NO- I will not separate.

Please call me direct at 252-435-7219 (Cell) or home 252-336-7441

Respectfully,
Chance

[Commander 147]

Chance it is a sad day in mudville when you are selling Ceili. And your trailer is worth the total cost you are asking and someone is going to get a real deal. I only wish my income was not at 15 year lows thanks to the current economy because otherwise I would grab her up myself and finish what you have started.

I wish you the best and hope you win the lottery so you can take her off the market. :-)

[carl291]

Chance, GOOD LUCK with the sale. Someone will be getting a great combination. boat, trailer and refurbishing work This is a horrible time to try and sell anything. If it would help, If someone was interested in the trailer only, I may be interested in the boat. As is the entire nation, my resources are limited at this time.
Carl Nussbickel

[Chance]

Here's some visual updates on work I have bestowed upon Ceili.

[Chance]

Here's some more recent work on the motor well area I have been restoring.

[Chance]

Here I have removed and completely replaced the load bearing foundation that the compression post rest on in the bilge.

[carl291]

Chance, Good to hear from you, as usual very nice work! I was wondering what or where you were with Ceili. This yacht will certainly be a better than new version of the Commander. Good Luck.

[ebb]

Chance,
Your photos are great to see,
and obviously you are a master with fiberglass.
You do beautiful work.

Hope you follow your genius through to splash
and see what she gives back to you!
THEN sell her if you dare!

Keep the photos coming.
They are a treat!


That's an impressive list of upgrades on the 'for sale' post!
I am glad you did not separate:D

[Chance]

Carl and Ebb,
Thank you both for the compliments and feedback. As you can see, I still have CEILI, and although I have been in a slump of sorts, part financial, part motivational degeneration, and some dissapointment as to another year not on the water sailing, I have not abandoned what I started back in October of 2008. Unlike to many other very talented Ariel and Commander stewards on this site, my work on Ceili is about that of a snail's pace. Reminds me of the tortoise and the hare story.
I have completed all recoring that I found necessary and can happily report that the entire deck, coach roof, cockpit, companion way, forward and lazarette hatches are solid and as good as new, if not better in some respects, like properly sealing all balsa from any hole and chainplate penetrations.
I'll keep the photo reports coming, thanks in large part to finally have DSL. Yes, I only knew dial up internet up until yesterday, and was completely without a computer nor internet (less one counts the public library) four over a year.

Respectfully,
Chance

[Chance]

Here's some more views of work conducted.

[Chance]

Forward section of the cabin sole installed with slight custom modifications. Compression post not permanently set / installed yet.

[ebb]

That shot looking into your bilge, sir,
I'm thinking you are the Gene Kelly of FRP.

That' a compliment, my friend,
and the reference gives away my age.
You got great moves with the material.:cool:

[Chance]

Now if I could just harness some of your motivation and talent, I would be set.

Here's a few more views of this area. It took me an extreme amount of time to first decide on the path I wanted to take once I knew I could not ignore Pearson's original set up, and more importantly the degradation of neglect and time.

[commanderpete]

That is some really beautiful carpentry and glasswork.

Very impressive.

[Chance]

Pete,
Thank you Sir. I too, have been a long admirer of your GRACE.

[Chance]

Here's a few views of the old and new post that will be going in Ceili. I opted to deviate from Pearson's threaded flange and instead had the machine shop mill a recess into the lower side of the new flange before inserting and welding it permanently to the new pipe. Obviously this wouldn't work if one wanted to retain the ability to run wiring down through the post and into the bildge. I myself have elected to not to, and will route wiring differently.
Of note, to my knowledge, Pearson never offered a vhf coaxial cable up the mast, only wires for the "steaming" light. How they made the hole in the pipe is of interest to me, not that I'll be doing the same, but it looks like it was a burn through like that which I could do with a welding rod.

[Chance]

For all you Commander folk out there. In case you ever wondered what was under the base of the compression post in the bilge, well here it is. Actually this is what you would find after removal of Pearson's glassing. The post sat on a 1/2 inch thick piece of aluminum plate that was approximately 4 inches square (not pictured, I think I already had it scraped). That plate sat directly on top of this wood, which I believe to be white oak. Then Pearson glassed it into the bilge. IMHO their glassing was just to keep the oak wedge base and aluminum plate from possible shifting. Of course there is all the downward thrust / compression of the rig load to assist.
Look closely and you can see the lightish, squared area of where the aluminum plate sat. As you can also see, the glassing did not fully incapsulate the oak and the subsequent years of water / moisture have taken their toll by allowing the wood to get and remain wet for long periods.

[Chance]

Here's a snap shot of the new Port, Aft chain plate knee. I changed the profile a bit and it's bit more robust.

[Chance]

Lower section of Port, Aft chain plate knee.

[Rico]

Nice work on the forensic dissection on the compression post! I always wonder what the assumed lifespan was at the facctory at the time of production...
Beautiful reconstruction work as well! You must be a plastic surgeon during the day!

[Chance]

Rico,
Thank you kindly Sir for the comments, but I'm hardly a surgeon. I just strive to produce the best results and always look to others to learn from. You on the other hand have true talent, skill and the motivational drive to get work done in a timely manner.
Some day, I too.....will have Ceili plying the waters, but until them I have to seek solice in the humble little areas of progress I have been fortunate to bestow upon her.
Here's another view of the Port, AFT chainplate knee. You can also see a partial of the new bulkheads I installed.

[Tony G]

Chance! NICE work! I dunno, but, I'd have to agree, you've got a way with the glass. And I really like the smooth lines of those knees. Man, I wish I could stay as 'unmotivated' as you claim to be. Hmm......we'd be sailing by now!! Keep posting updates because it's only going to get into the mid 30s in this neck of the woods and I could use some 'unmotivation'.

[ebb]

Chance,
That wedge could be white oak alright.
After 40 years it finally looks porus enough to get some epoxy to soak in.
Ready for another 40. Amazing local wood!

Just surfaced a 5/4 plank of oak I've moved around with me for 40 years.
Could have been white. Was expecting it to be white. BUT
Blowing through the end grain: nope, wasn't white oak. It doesn't look dark enough to be red oak.
Just assuming you're not going to blow through the end grain on that wedge.

Went over to the wood web to see if they'd be talking about oaks.
Couple guys pointed out an instant technique to ID white oaks from others:
Look at the RAYS which are the thread-like dark lines on the SURFACE of a milled plank.
If the rays are predominantly short, say from 1/2" to a few 1 1/4", it's not white.
Rays that are generally longer from say 1" to 2 1/2", probably white.

Will use the blow oak, but juice it good with resin.
Have epoxied some strips together, seems to bond well, which is not the case with quercus alba.

[Chance]

Tony,
Thank you. I took me some time to finally come up with the final profile of what has now become the "new" forward and aft lower chain plate knees. I had a general idea of what I wanted, then through pattern evolvement, I achieved what I was looking for. Honestly it would have been much easier to glass in a knee that had a strainght or tappered inner edge instead of the curved profile I chose, but.....when I made that pattern, it looked too big and obnoxious. Plus, for me, subtle curves can be made to look good if one takes the time to glass them into the surrounding vessel's hull and overhead.
Okay I have to admit, I am motivated to continue progress, it's just that my work / progress pace seems to be so much slower than all the other talented folks on this site. I never had a completion date in mind when I began, but then again, I didn't see all the issues / improvements / personalization that have revealed them selves to me over my two years of stewardship of "Ceili". I just want to do right and ensure that when she is back in sailing trim, she'll be on point.
Sorry to hear about the low tempatures on your end. For me, anything below 50 brings me to a near stop. But here in NC, where still in the 60's.

Ebb,
White oak is perfectly acceptable for use in the marine industry as I'm sure your well aware of, however "red" oak belongs in the home and on land. Despite the degradation of the white oak "wedge" I pulled out of the bilge on "Ceili", I'm confident that had I left well enough alone, it would have continued to serve in the capacity so designed by Pearson. But....., it's like me to not settle for "mediocrity" and felt I could do better. For me the equation seems to be 40% money, and 60 % time / labor, and I'm sure that many folks at Pearson could have done the same if they didn't have to perform under strict timelines and a budget. Like others, I refuse to add up how much in material alone, I have devoted to "Ceili", it's definately been a journey thus far and our bonding only increases with time. Now if only I could be sailing!

To all, have a great evening.

[Chance]

Here's a few more close up photos

[Chance]

The saw zaw made efficient work of removing the original glassed in fiberglass drain ports for the port and starboard cockpit drains. A while back I also removed the fiberglass drain port for the galley sink and properly restored the hull.
Here's the majority of the parts I have assembled for the new cockpit drains that will incorporate seacocks. It took some time today, but I got the 3/4 inch thick, G-10 garolite backing plates milled. Still have a little more work to do on them, scheduled for tomorrow.

[ebb]

WOW!
Those Garolite donuts are incredible!
Mo' betta than ply!


But there's something more to your array of bronze goodies.
My attention for many years has not been on bronze seacock/thru-hull hardware.
What I think I'm seeing is a fantastic 3-bolt flange adaptor base that makes it possible to use
in-line ballcocks as seacocks.

Haven't a clue how long they have been on the market.
Haven't seen em up close and personal.
But if the flanged adapter is NEW it is an astonishing innovation from an established traditional marine hardware maker. Assume it is Groco.

Looked it up quickly, looks like Groco has patented the fixture.
Altho it seems so obvious that it always should have been in their catalog.

It's evident that the adapter is aimed at us:
the upgraders, renovators of good ole boats. Would never be an OEM.
It is also a strong statement to the marine industry that putting an inline plumbing valve directly on
an unsupported tail-piece -the thru-hull- is not sanctioned by the manufacturer, Groco.
They have a disclaimer on their website, that it is bad practice.
So coming up with a SAFE and logical solution for us is, imco, responsible marketing.
[It has been around for at least 2 years - looking at dated forums.]


I'd be interested to see how far down the in-line valve seats on the tapered thread of the adapter. It would have to screw on nearly that whole distance to make me happy. I subscribe to the 800 pound side load test on any thru-hull valve assembly.
The guy who calls himself MaineSail on Sailnet seems to be really impressed with this Groco 3-bolt flange adapter. A keen observor.
He says the leftover material on the tube section is as thick as found on their seacocks. The threading for the thru-hull is NPS - straight. The male thread on top of the adapter is NPT for the in-line plumbing valve - and tapered. The way the adapter is designed the male and female threads do not share the same wall.

What's neat about this is that the inline valve, just the ballcock, can be unscrewed and replaced if it freezes up. That appeals to all of us with busted budgets.
Because the adapter base is mechanically attachted to the hull.
If the base is installed waterproof, the thru-hull becomes a LINER (to coin a term).
I can see the thru-hull screwed in using teflon tape and bedding compound rather than permanent rubber adhesive. There is little chance of a leak developing here with the flanged base installed tight.
It would make later work on the hole a piece of cake.
Certainly far easier and cheaper than replacing a traditional seacock that develops a problem.
That is what makes it a great choice. Something is bound to happen to the valve.
This way you can easily replace with a spare - without making a federal case out of it.
This is a quantum leap in thru-hull valve systems!!!! It really is almost unbelievable.

Chance, looking forward to seeing how you do it!



'Course Pearson did it a lot cruder.... uglier even....
and cheaper.... but
you have to say their 'thru-hulls' lasted pretty good all these many years:D

FORSPAR. Wake up!
GOOD OLD BOAT. You wake up also!
PRACTICAL SAILOR. Wake up!

[Chance]

Ebb,
Concur with your assessment and nicely written opinions, all well founded.
It is odd that one can find, throughout the marine industry, in-line ball valves screwed directly on thru-hulls. This is a major problem for a couple of reasons:
1) The thread pitch is not the same. As you mentioned, Thru Hulls have NPS threads and valves, fittings, etc., all have NPT threads. They should not be joined, but yet....it so often is the case. Even paid "yard" personnel will do this, presumably to save a buck, or reduce the effort.
2) The load is carried mostly by the thru hull fitting (in this case) and this is unfortunate for the same reasons that "backing plates" are so essential / critical on deck hardware. For without a flange and a backing plate, there is little to transfer the load evenly to the hull.
3) Removing an entire traditional seacock for whatever reason involves removal of the thru hull and that can be a royal pain.

Yes, I have chosen GROCO. Hamilton Marine up in Maine is who I ordered the flange adapters and associated bronze plumbing hardware from.

Here's a what little progress I made today:
1) contoured the outer edge of the garolite backing plate
2) drilled (6) holes and tapped them to receive the 5/16-18 studs for securing the flange adapter to the hull.
3) Made the studs from machine screws. It's cheaper to buy the screw and cut off the head than to buy all thread.

In case your wondering, I have chosen to use a "stud" mounting option rather than completely thru bolting, because:
1) it eliminates having to drill (6) more holes in the hull.
2) will still accomplish the same objective, perhaps with a bit less strength.
3) Provides a future option to drill all the way through and run machine screws that have been countersunk into the outer hull, then faired smooth.

[ebb]

Chance,
It looks like you wrote the book on this subject.

From the color of the material can guess you got G10 Garolite which is made with glass fabric and epoxy. So it should marry well with the hull. Even if you are not through bolting the adapter flange through the hull.
For any reader inspired by this method, it will depend on the quality of epoxy used to glue the plate to the polyester hull.

I can see doing it.
Most interesting and innovative is tapping the Garolite for threaded machine screws (or rod) to attach the flanged adapter.
Imco most normal and DIY glass reinforced plastics would be two friable for tapping in threads.
This may be a caution to others trying it.
There are denser Garolites composed of cotton and linen impregnated with phenlic resin that would take threading - BUT might be problematic cold gluing/bonding dissimilar plastics with epoxy.
Impressed with your compassionate reasoning that looks ahead, making it easy for the next fool with his head in the bilge.
It is also conceivable that the Garolite disk itself - with the adapter fastened to it - can be through bolted to the hull - IF NEEDED.
[For Ariel/Commander owners this could be a problem because the hull might not be thick enough to take the chafering needed to bury flathead bolts.
I found the hull on A338 to be too thin for 5/16" flatheads and had to add layers of epoxy and Xmat inside. Not a bad idea, just another expensive step.]


Chance, can we see what the valve looks like on the adapter?

Not only do you write book, you illestrate it too - excellent photos!

[Chance]

Ebb,
Your correct, I chose G-10 Garolite. Ordered it from McMaster-Carr. Don't know if you have used it before, but....it is very, very dense. Taps well but is hard on the hands to run the tap on through. Did I say it is very dense? It also dulls any blade you through at it quickly. If using a jig saw, use metal cutting blades and have plenty of them. Also, I have only cut up to 1/2 inch with a jig saw. These backing plates are 3/4 " thick, and very expensive. A 12" X 12", 3/4 " thick plate of G-10 will cost you $75.89 delivered. Garolite is formed under pressure, therefore the density is achieved with a high glass content and not too much resin. You are correct, they hull of my Commander was too thin to properly countersink a FH machine screw. I would have had to add material, which by making these garolite backing plates, I have. They will be permanently attached / bonded to the hull with thickened epoxy. I'll post more photos shortly, per your request.

[Chance]

I spent the afternoon locating the placement of the new thru-hulls for the cockpit. Drilling the 1-7/8" hole for each of them, and bonding the garolite backing plate to the hull. I have spent so much time glassing in "old" holes, both from Pearson and POs, that I took a break before running the large hole saw through the hull....twice!

The two hull core samples revealed a port thickness no thinner than 5/16" and the starboard no thinner than 7/16". Yes, the variance could be contributed to hand lay up, but.....the workers didn't adhear to a strict layup schedule, thus the 1/8 in difference in the same area of the hull.

Here you go Ebb:

Note: The valve is only dry fitted at this time, but the street elbow has been bonded to the adapter as can be seen by the white. I chose 3M 4200 for this joint. Will use megalock for the other joints.

[ebb]

Connection between adapter and valve looks very shippy.
Can certainly see that if you have tight quarters
and have to have the handle in a certain position
that a dry fit to see where stuff ends up after assembly is in order.

google> Cruisers Forum Groco vs Conbraco Valves
it's 2 pages long.
There you'll find MaineSail in a great rumble about the virtues of the adapter system.
And I think on the next page someone with the same concern I have
about how much metal is left after threading: you'll find photos of golden pipe threads and digital calipers.

What's left is the thickness of a penny! but that might have been a Conbraco valve.

Another concern is what the material the ball and valve stem are made from.
Only 316L (passivated) is close on the galvanic scale to 85-5-5-5*, the alloy Groco is suppiosed to be using. This IS the reason to have the inline ball valve for easy replacement.
Don't know if parts are replacable inside a Groco ballvalve.

My Marelon seacocks cannot be serviced. Imco Lanocote applied with an acid brush is the best thing we can do for the ball - which keeps the lever easy to turn.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________
*85-5-5-5: copper - lead - zinc - tin.
is a casting alloy with good corrosion resistance due to the tin in the formula.
It is placed about half way between brass and bronze on the copper chart. It's non-marine name is red brass.
The Brits call it gun metal, I think. It machines well and most sailors don't seem to have a corrosion problem with the bodies of the alloy in seawater.
They may have to be wired and/or zinced.

[Chance]

Here's a little snap shot of the new bulkheads I installed. Notice that I integrated the web knees that are normally found on Commanders. I have been using solely Okume marine ply for the reconstruction. Those with a close eye for detail may spot a few other things I have done, but have not photo shared as of yet.

Good day.

[Chance]

For those that may be interested and specifically for Joe who asked, here you go:

Price (each): Qty: Part #: Nomenclature: Source:
$2.87 8 502674 1-1/4 to 2-1/4 AWAB hose clamp DefenderMarine
$5.85 1 AWA-125015P Rubber Tail Tips (Bag) Jamestown Dist.
$11.64 1 MMM-05260 3M 4200 Fast Cure 3 oz. Jamestown Dist.
$83.90 1 SHI-2521124 ShieldsAUST 1-1/2"X12-1/2' Jamestown Dist.
$68.76 1 8667K221 G-10 Garolite, 3/4", 12"X12" McMaster-Carr
$62.99 2 GRO-IBV-1500 Ball Valve, BRZ 1.5" Full Flow Hamilton Marine
$.50 6 112339 Hex Nut, Bronze, 5/16" Hamilton Marine
$.50 6 113696 Flat Washer, Bronze 5/16" Hamilton Marine
$.25 6 113782 Lock Washer, Bronze 5/15" Hamilton Marine
$1.33 6 111353 Machine Screw, Bronze FH Hamilton Marine
$14.99 2 GRO-PTH-1500 Adapter, Pipe to Hose 1.5" Hamilton Marine
$22.99 2 MTL-44-167 Elbow, Street 1-1/2", BRZ Hamilton Marine
$42.99 2 GRO-IBVF-1500 Flange Adapter Base, 1.50" Hamilton Marine
$31.99 1 GRO-TH-1500-L Thru HUll 1-1/2", W/O Nut Hamilton Marine
$40.99 1 GRO-TH-1500-W Thru Hull 1-1/2", With Nut Hamilton Marine

Note: Prices above are for "each" and do not include shipping / handling fees from each supplier.

[Chance]

A bit more progress made:

[Tony G]

Once again Chance, you have awed me with your work on Ceili. If it wasn't -5 outside I'd more inspired to do something on the boat driven soley by your posts here!

I do have one question regarding your install above. What keeps the studs from turning in the garolite pads as you work the nuts down onto the the flange? More importantly, what keeps them from turning out as you loosen the nuts for whatever reason? Perhaps I missed something in your posts above, and, if I did I apologize for dragging it out. I suppose if you did discover that the nuts had seized to the threaded studs while doing maintenance sometime in the future you could simply back both out and thread in some 1" bolts. Then again, how just how often do you intend to loosen those nuts once she is in the water? I guess my question is kind of pointless now that I've read it...;)

[Chance]

Tony,
-5 degrees, lord have mercy! It's only November! Your question above is something I considered when in the planning phase, of which there are a few options:
1) Leave the studs in the garolite pads "DRY". As for tightening the nuts down on the flange, they would be turning clockwise, the same direction the stud would turn. Once the stud reached the bottom of the tapped hole it would effectively become bottomed out, and would stop turning.
2) If the nuts were to "seize" on the studs upon disassembly, one could just back out the stud all together and insert another. No problem.
3) I used unthinkended epoxy to lock the studs in the tapped holes. If you so desired you could coat the threads of the studs with a mold release first.
4) To remove the studs that have been "locked" in epoxy, I will heat the stud using either a soldering iron or a small torch, after heating a bit, I would use a wrench on a double nut set up to break free from the epoxy and unscrew the stud.

I don't really forsee a "routine" occurence in having to remove the studs, so I wasn't too concerned with making them a little bit of work in removing.

I would be more concerned with the type of bedding compound used to "SEAL" the thru-hull and the ball valve to the flange adapter. I used 3M 4200 for the other joints, but will most likely be using Sika Flex 291-LOT for the thru hull and ball valve. I have used Sika Flex 291-LOT in other thru hull work on another boat I had at one time, and it works well.

I may also use Boatlife's Life-Caulk, which is a polysulfide "sealant", that of which I have used also, with no concerns.

[ebb]

Chance,
Option 1) and 2) in the above post seems the most shippy
if take apart is more important than aggressive sealing and gluing.

Bronze takes epoxy pretty well
so gluing the studs in, imco, they'll never be backed out even with the most nasty pair of visegrips!

Was thinking how to keep aggressive sealants away from the thru-hull.
But maybe for you that's not necessary.
Still, to remove the adapter in the future, the thru-hull will have to be backed out.
I've been convinced that the thru-hull should seat into
the adapter or seacock with teflon tape. Squeeze-out from the adapter flange sealant might be a problem.
Could install the adapter - then after the rubberseal is set
cut away any squeeze out inside the thru-hull hole from outside. Problematic.
Especially with viscous sealants. Cowards like me use butyl tape.

Don't recall what the pundits say about using Lanocote on the underwater NPS threads of a thru-hull? But given its rep, it might work well.
And you could load the thru-hull top to bottom with the grease - any squeeze out of THIS stuff will lubricate the valve ball!
Just being a trouble-maker!:D


I've been getting the wood pieces together for the dropboard framing and thresh-hold around the companionway. Also a new lexan sliding hatch.
Have successfully embedded bronze nuts with epoxy into some pieces that I didn't want thru-bolted. The idea is to allow assembly and later dis-assembly from one side.

To keep the all important nut threads from getting epoxy in them
I brushed a little Lanocote on the machine screws used for the mock-up and let the embedded nuts set. Just the nuts embedded not the whole hole or the screws.
Then backed out the bolts.
Any overage of epoxy in a hole with a nut is also 'tapped'.
This method also lines up the male and female parts making for a smooth match up every time. The bolts back right out no problem - a little tight at first.

[Chance]

Ebb,
I hadn't thought of using Lanocote for a release agent, but it makes sense. I know exactly what you mean when you say "agressive" sealants! It would seem that the previous owner of Ceili did not know the difference between bedding compounds (sealants) and those designed as either dual purpose or with an emphasis of "Adhesive". I have had a heck of time removing the coamings and companion way hatch slider rail supports.

As for the thru hull, you take is one I hadn't considered, never crossed my mind. Should work though. It's not like we are plumbing a pressurized system. As for the threads, I'm sure teflon tape would work, but I think it be prudent to at least bed with the least agressive "sealant", the lip of the thru hull, where she sits down against the hull.

I haven't installed the adapter plates, thru-hulls yet because I'm doing or rather, will be doing some other stuff under the cockpit and it's easier for me to get under there with as little as possible jabbing my twisted body. I almost got my self stuck under there not too long ago.

So you went with a Lexan companionway hatch, eh? I cored the stock one with 1/2" end grain balsa then an inner skin, but I definately will not get the illumination that you will have achieved.

Thanks for the tip on bedding bronze nuts for a clean, concealed look without resorting to thru-bolting.

[Chance]

Okay, I like making more work for myself, but.....I have decided to core the cabin trunk sides. My reasoning is mainly to accomodate the future opening port lights I will install, in place of the original fixed port lights.

Any thoughts / comments??

I have decided to use 3/4" end grain balsa for the core. I am very familiar with using this material and done properly I have no concerns with it.

Hmmm, opening port lights, I am leaning towards Spartan Marine. Even though there are not a lot of suppliers / manufacturers the only two I have narrowed it down to are Spartan and New Found Metals.

Ebb, I believe you have Spartan bronze, opening portlights in hand. Are you impressed with their design and quality?

[ebb]

Wholely Catfish!!!! Core the sides?
W O W
Well, just banged into the brain: you'll do it from the INSIDE, right?
Maybe you saw some of my posts relating to cabin sides.
It's a heavy duty molding that gets heavier at the deck and maybe in the turn of the dog house.
From inside at least you'll be standing mostly to do the work.


Have to dig out those Spartan lights, haven't seen them in years.
When I got them I remember I was horrified....
them looked to me like something you'd find on a WWII Liberty Ship!

One might work as a kellet on yer anchor rode.

[Chance]

Ebb,
I fell out of the chair laughing so hard at your initial assessment of the Spartan portlights. You are so funny!

Yes, most definately done from the inside, don't think one could core the cabin truck sides any other way.

IMHO one advantage commander folk have over ariels is that there is no liner to contend with. Of course there are pros and cons to both configurations.

I picked up the 3/4" scrimmed end grain balsa panels today. My local source for glass work supplies, and other related marine finishes happens to be Eastern Burlap Trading company. They are located up in Norfolk, VA. They cater to the marine building industry and their on hand inventory supports this. They also ship daily, and are the supplier for many mid atlantic boat building companies.

[debaser]

Chance,

I have been following your work religiously, and I am awed by both your skill and attention to detail. My apologies if someone has already asked, but why did you decide to replace the thru hulls in their original position rather than moving them above the waterline? I am considering doing the latter (thus removing all thru hulls from my boat) and was wondering if there was some logic I had missed.

Thanks,

Joe

[Chance]

Joe,
Thank you. Hmmm....attempting to move the cockpit drains above the water line could present problems:

1) The commander's cockpit sole is sloped forward, thus that's why the original drain ports are located in the forward Port and Starboard corners.
2) Pearson's original glassed in drains (on the cockpit underside) are sloped back aft.
3) The terminous point of these glassed in FRP tubes (where one would attach the 1-1/2" hose) are actually located below the water line.
4) I did not want to disturb the original configuration of the drains in the cockpit, nor the original glassed in FRP channels / pipe.
5) To route above the water line, you would have to change all the above.
6) There would be inadequate gravity drainage of the cockpit if you did not re-invent the above, because......the drain tubing would have to actually have an upward slope to get above the waterline.
7) Best drainage IMHO is as close to centerline as possible, while maintainiung downward slope.
8) If the drains were to be run outboard, then when heeled, the upward one would have reduced flow or worse, not even drain.
9) If you were to run the drain tubing all the way aft, then you would most like have to penetrate the watertight structural bulkhead to gain access to the aft lazarette. This I did not want to do.
10) Rule number one for me, is to do no harm. Pearson had the cockpit drains configured nicely with the exception of not having a bonifide sea cock to manage them. This IMHO was due not because of know how, but because of $$. These were production boats, not custom built to orders. A price point was established and that dictates why things are done or better yet, not done.

[Chance]

I have chosen not to re-install the cabinet containing the drawer and little sink. This resulted in an opportunity to permanently close the sink drain that penetrated the hull.

[Chance]

Here's a few more views of the Port bulkhead installation.

[Chance]

Here's the Starboard bulkhead in place. I am not re-installing the cabinet containing the sink / drawer. That will remain upstairs in the garage.

[Chance]

Here's the forward hatch ready for final phase.

[Chance]

Here's the quarter berth shelves tabed in and complete. I still have the finish trim (fiddle rail) to install.

[Chance]

A little make over in this area. I'll be installing the battery box just forward of this area, between here and aft of the companionway ladder.

[Chance]

The cold weather has really made forward progress on "Ceili", extremely slow, however.......I have started to assemble the materials needed to replace her old rudder with a completely new one that I will be building.

Thanks to the association for the rudder bearing I just received in the mail today. Additionally I have:

The silicone bronze (Alloy 655 - Everdur) is forthcoming, but at least it's on order.

The the marine ply (Meranti, BS1088 standard)

Will also have a new rudder shoe cast. (See rudder shoe thread)

As for the cabin sides. I have glassed in the old fixed portlight openings and have the coring (3/4 end grain balsa) in a holding pattern waiting for warmer weather.

I'll post photos of the above as things progress, weather permitting.

[Chance]

Ceili's new rudder shoe is moving forward.

The pattern will be with the foundry first part of this coming week.

If anyone desires to purchase one now, the cost is $325.00. If your interested, speak up now, or at least by this Sunday, January 30th.

For details see "rudder shoe" thread.

Thanks.

[Chance]

Just received the new rudder shoe that will grace Ceili when I replace the rudder this year.

My compliments for an extremely beautiful job on the silicon bronze rudder shoe go to Fred up in Washington State (Fox Island) for his mastery craftsmanship, and excellent machine work!

When I am done I will have replaced the entire rudder assembly to include:
1) Rudder foil
2) Shaft
3) Delrin Bearing
4) Shoe
5) Tiller head assembly
6) Tiller

Still have to source out the machine work on the shaft but I have been waiting for the shoe to arrive to ensure I get the correct fitment on the lower end of the shaft where it rest in the shoe. I'll have the shaft machined at the lowest end of the thousands of an inch clearance IAW the drawings.

Unfortuanately I no longer have internet capabilities at my residence, which explains why I sit here at the public library in Elizabeth City, NC and why I haven't posted any updated photos recently.

Happy sailing.

[Commander 147]

Chance

Sorry to hear you no longer have internet but happy to hear you are still making some progress on Ceili.

I'm curious of your plan for building the new rudder since I too will be doing the same project. Do you plan to build it exactly the way it is detailed in the manual or some variation of that?

[Chance]

Jerry,
The new rudder will take on the profile of the alternative profile as depited on Alberg's line drawings of the Commander and as can be seen in the manual. This profile, I believe is referred to as "constellation" is very near identical to Albergs design of the Bristols, Cape Dorys and others.

The rudder foil (blade) will be of BS1088 ply core, permanently affixed to the bronze rudder shaft and encased in glass. All metal, is silicon bronze, either herculoy or everdur, with the exception of the pins that will hold the strap and rudder shoe on, that will be copper.

[Commander 147]

Chance

I have been impressed with much of the work you have done on Ceili. It appears that you do your homework before you do a project and so for that reason I am very curious to know what the deciding factors were for you when you decided to go with BS1088 plywood for the rudder. So far I have been leaning towards solid quarter sawn mahogany for mine but I believe in making the most imformed choices I can for my projects. So can you tell me what made you decide on the plywood?

[ebb]

NOT to steal Chance's thrunder....
This is the BEST PLYWOOD for a composite/encapsulated rudder.
I have been a user of Meranti BS-1088 for awhile now.
The stuff is the most IMPRESSIVE plywood available on the market.
For the reasonable price there is no better marine plywood on the planet.
The APA has no standard of plywood (like fir) that matches BS-1088 -
that includes fir 'marine'. I have seen some quality plywoods that look visibly OK,
but they invariably will have gaps, overlays and seams, glue skips and delaminations, and mixed quality junk cores with splits and knot holes. A B...S.... American standard.

Meranti can be found at around the same price if not cheaper in comparable sizes.
The most durable of these Philippine mahogany (red lauan Shorea) plywoods is sold as HYDROTEK.
Look for printing on the edge of the panel and the name stamped on the A face in one corner.
Why not use the best?
The board comes in mm and inches. ASK the supplier. You can find our fractions of an inch, where 1/4" is exactly 1/4", on this foreign made plywood. American plywood is undersized but not millimetered.
Okume (which may have the same BS-1088 standard) is not meranti nor durable as Hydrotek. I believe Aquatek is the name for non-BS-1088 marine meranti.

British Standard BS-1088 requires that
all veneers are the same species -
no gaps or fillers - the core must have the same quality veneers as the face -
(only one edge gap allowed per side)
WBP phenol formaldehyde glue. Weather Boil Proof.*
the board is absolutely square and has no variations in thickness.

Personal experience:
Imco the material is twice as strong as the same thickness of fir. All veneers are the same thickness. 7 veneer layers in 3/8", for example, could be one reason for its stability. Doesn't seem to respond to ambient temps and moisture. Got a lot of waterproof glue layers too.
In the past where you intuit that 1/2" fir is required, maybe 1/4" or 3/8" meranti is better and lighter.
It is exceptionally easy to encapsulate meranti with glass and epoxy.
Have laminated a single layer of glass with epoxy on sheets and worked on the result for years.
I've sanded this light treatment, not to break through, but to prep for primer and have had
the coated plywood acts as if it came (BS-1088:rolleyes:) that way from the lumberteria.
The stuff is a PLEASURE to work with. It doesn't claw you with splinters. And it even smells good.

Another really important aspect of this plywood is that a panel comes FLAT. (Good for rudders!)
Pick up fir plywood panel and there is at least a twist in it that doesn't come from the vendor not sticking it correctly. Stand it on edge and there is at least one bow in its length and width. It's just the way it is. You can sight down the length of many a domestic sheet and see extra waggles and waves in the surface. More for your money.

Scrolling meranti is also a treat. There can be tearout along the edge. But you can fix that by adjusting the jigsaw or the blade. Using a Bosch T118A 17-24 Metal cutting blade gets you almost a laser cut. Easy to clean up an edge by sanding.
It mills beautifully with the router. Wide edge roundovers don't faze the veneers at all. Holds screws well. Have bought only one partial bad sheet (no glue!) in all these years.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________________
*WBP
Weather Boil Proof test
24 hour cold water immersion and
72 hour boiling water immersion then
the samples are cooled in cold water
then given a sheer test for delamination. (Don't know how this is done.)
But that IS IMPRESSIVE - and there is imco no american plywood product that can survive this GLUE test.
[Guys, I'm sorry, do get carried away:o]

[Commander 147]

Ebb

I'm still looking forward to Chance's reply but thank you for that info. This plywood is as you say very impressive material. I'm starting to understand why Chance decised to go with it. I believe it will be easier to make the rudder with a couple of layers of 1/2" Meranti BS1088 plywood than it would be with the solid mahogany and a lot less expansion and contraction to deal with. Looks like I'm starting to lean a differant direction. :-)

[ebb]

Jerry, we've talked about the original A/C rudder here a number of times.
Some guys have chosen to go with Honduran planks and silicon bronze rod and screws and remade them.
There are some original mahogany, mechanically fastened NO EPOXY rudders still going strong.
Now going on to 50years working on the end of the keel underwater.
Talk about a water test!!!

The original rudder is a work of art.
They are a left over from the glory days of shipwrights and wooden yachts.
If you can reproduce it, as built, it is just as strong as a snotty glass/plywood/foam version. And while you and I can make a good looking rudder from modern materials, only the original rudder will ever be considered........ BEAUTIFUL.

[Chance]

Good Day gents,
Sorry for the delay and short response but, public access for me is limited:

I concur with all the above and thanks Ebb, for your expertise and breakdown above. I do agree, the original, three plank genuine honduras mahogany rudder with bronze drift pins, bolts and lags are true beauty to behold. Additionally, the ear shaped rudder as Pearson built our lovely Ariels and Commanders is graceful, but...., I am choosing a slight departure in that both the profile and rudder layup will be different. Here's where I believe there is no one right way, and all others are wrong. Just so long as craftsmanship, design, prudency, fuction and quality materials prevail, I think a great rudder can either be restored, re-made / re-built, or completely remade from scratch.
Meranti BS1088 is a perfect core for rudder application, so long as on desires a composite rudder. If....., one wanted to remain true to original well than it's a no brainer, genuine mahogany would be the only way to go. If, my original rudder had not been so badly neglected and poorly botched repairs from previous owners, I see no reason to have changed it. But...such was not the case for me, so a completely new rudder and all associated components (tiller, tiller head from Spartan Marine, bearing, shaft, shoe, strap, etc.) will grace her as well.
Because I have elected to use the alternate profile (constellation style), and that it will be composite built, it is critical to use a quality core. For my application, one the fore mentioned was decided on, the core material was an easy choice. Stiffness, flatness, designed for submersion, time tested, all were factors. Just as important is not mixing metals, ie: stainless shafts with bronze straps and shoes, IMHO. Of course to each their own, and I don't claim to be an expert, just try to continue with the best effort I can bestow on Ceili.
Of course the rudder being "critical", I have been slow to proceed, and want the peace of mind that when complete, Ceili's rudder will out last my stewardship of her, and will serve her decades into the future.
If any folks are interested in a phone conversation, I can be reached evenings at home: (252) 336-7441.

Wish I was sailing this spring, like many of you will be. Enjoy. I dream of broad reaching and close beats, every time I climb up into Ceili for my gentle work.

[Chance]

Ceili, Commander #256 is available. Still considered in the project phase, but much work done in the 2-1/2 years I have been steward of her. She sits on a 2008 Triad trailer and I will not part her out nor separate from the trailer. I will not even consider offers lower than 5K, which is what I paid for the trailer alone. For those who are seriously interested, contact me directly at my home number of: 252-336-7441.

[Chance]

For those that may like to see, today I finally installed the thru-hulls, sea cock valves and plumbed them in for the new cockpit drains.

[Chance]

Here's a few more photos.

[Chance]

Here's a couple of shots of the glass work I did surrounding the companionway.

[Chance]

Here's two more shots of the underside area.

[Commander 147]

Chance

I've always been impressed with the quality of your work. Very nicely done.

[Chance]

Jerry,
Thank you for the kind compliment. Like you and other great stewards of our beloved vessels, I am constantly amazaed or better, completely impressed with the talents, skills and craftsmanship that folks here on the forum exercise in getting and maintaining their respective Ariels and Commanders in sailable form.

The attached photo is bitter sweet for me. It was taken yesterday following the cockpit drain installation and shows "Ceili" still waiting patiently in what has become her "slip" since November of 2008, which is when I started on her.

Still much to do, and with resources depleted, I have yet to wet her bottom sides and sail her. Another summer (the third) is here and I have not completed her, sad......

[Commander 147]

Chance

I suppose there are others that understand your pain but I can promise you I FEEL EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Life has a way of continually hindering my project and it is SOOOOO frustrating. I am really tired of looking at Destiny in the reconstruction phase and no matter how hard I push on getting her done it just seems like there is way more to do than I wish was left. But wishing does not get her done so I just keep plowing ahead.

[Chance]

A wee bit of progress on what will become Ceili's new rudder someday. I spent the morning assembling my notes and putting them down on paper so that I may find out what kind of damage a machinist will charge to perform the machine work.

Finally cut out the core profile for the rudder, as seen. I utilized the measurements from the line drawing depicting the alternative profile (constellation). Basically the rudder profile will assume the look like that which graces Bristols.

As you can see, I had decided a time ago, to replace the stock tiller head assembly (strap and cap). The one shown is from Spartan Marine in Maine and was machined for the 1 inch rudder stock (shaft).

[Chance]

Here's the close ups.

[Commander 147]

Chance

How thick do you plan to make the body of the rudder? Will you make it the same thickness as the shaft or will you make it the thickness of the aft end of the keel that it butts up against?

[Chance]

Jerry,
I'm aiming for the leading edge of the rudder foil to be 1-1/4" wide and the trailing edge to be 3/8" wide. I had the opportunity to obtain measurements from an original, unmolested mahogany rudder on an ariel earlier this year and the leading thickness was the same, but the aft (trailing) was 1/2" wide.
I met with a machinist this afternoon, actually he came to my work, and we looked over my drawings. I'll find out tomorrow what kind of damage (cost) they want to perform the machine work I desire and the welding phase as well.
I'll keep all posted and will of course document the progress / work with digital photos, as you know the saying: a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Chance]

I dropped off the materials at the machine / fabrication shop I have selected to perform the work. They will:

1) mill the shaft to length
2) mill the keyway slot
3) mill the boss, ensuring a .018 clearance with the rudder shoe bored hole
4) mill seven (7) blind holes
5) mill four (4) slots in the 3/8 inch rod
6) prep the flat stock for insertion into four of the seven rods
7) mill the key stock
8) ensure the tiller head assembly will fit onto the shaft (spartan marine milled the keyway on the tiller head)
9) cut 3/8" rod into seven (7) specific lengths
10) weld eleven (11) joints

The above will cost me $275 and will be done later next week. I'll post pics when I have the assembly in hand, back here on our property.

[ebb]

You won't forget the keeper strap, right?
sometimes called a gudgeon.

[Chance]

Ebb,
No, I won't forget, thanks. I have a 1" X 12" X 1/8" piece of silicon bronze 655 everdur on my bench just waiting for this application. I also have the copper rod I will be using to rivet it place, along with the rudder shoe.

Here's a couple of photos of some work I did in regards to the cockpit sail lockers. Upon removal of the cockpit locker hinges, I found a excessive amount of gel coat applied along the corner edge (under the hinge itself) that cracked substantially. I cleaned / removed all this and rebuilt up this area on both the Port and Starboard sides. I also added glassed in mahogany stringers that run the full length of the locker. These stringers were applied directly under where the screws from the hinge enter the deck.

[Chance]

Ebb,
Yes, here is the strap you mention, that I will replace when Ceili receives her new rudder.

[Chance]

Here's a couple of photos of Ceili's "AFT" section in her original gray gel coat, never painted....yet.

As many of you know, I modified the forward sector when I removed and rebuilt, to my liking, the compression post load bearing base.

[Chance]

Here is another project that ties into Ceili. This is small tender that will come in handy when Ceili floats. The design is by B&B yacht designs here in NC and I think it is called the "minipaw" pram dingy. She'll seat two and is primarily designed for row and it about 6-1/2 feet long.

[Commander 147]

Chance

That is a sweet little tender! I can see you now when Celi is all done you'll be spending all your free time out sailing the sound and exploring the coastline with your little pram behind to row in even closer to see things you could not otherwise see.

So how will you plan to use Celi? Mostly coastal crusing or do you have other plans?

BTW you can count your blessings that your bilge was never filled with the water logged foam that Destiny's was. What a pain that was digging all that wet foam out of her bilge.

[Chance]

Here's the assembled rudder shaft assembly. Next phase, rudder core fitting.

[Chance]

A couple more shots.

[ebb]

Absolutely beautiful metalwork.

Very elegant. Wish I had mine done that way!

[Ariel 109]

Nice metalwork! Can I ask what kind of solder was used to join the elements?

[Commander 147]

Here's the assembled rudder shaft assembly. Next phase, rudder core fitting.

Wow I don't know how I missed your post yesterday. But I have to agree with Ebb and Ben That the work looks great. I'm very interested in following your progress on this project so please keep us up to date.

[Chance]

Thanks Ebb, Jerry and Ben.

The machinist / fabricator jointed the machined joints via silver brazing (not the same thing as silver soldering) though sometimes in the industry the terms are used interchangeble. It has to do with the temperature of application, in this case above 800 degrees.

I decided to modify my original drawings and added the two flat bars for peace of mind that the rudder foil (core) would not be able to slid off the rods. I know, this whole thing will be epoxied togetger before ever getting to sheathing it in glass, but in my mind I kept thinking that without the flat stock, the only thing holding the rudder foil to the bronze skeletol structure wold be epoxy. So...for peace of mind the flat stock was added to satisfy my mind a wandering.

Last night I began the tedious process of laying out the lines on the inside face of the core. Much like working with a book opened up, two mirror halves that have to be milled to accept the bronze rudder stock assembly.

I'll post photos as work progresses.

Thanks gents.

[Chance]

Today I managed to to "let in" the bronze skeletal (thanks Ebb) to the core halves.
Here's what it ended up looking like:

[Ariel 109]

When I saw your metalwork Chance I wasn't too sure about how brazing would hold up in the marine environment. But after reading about brazing practices online I find out it's commonly done.

Is that the final shape of your rudder? Are you going to add some curves unto the trailing edge?

Your work is really beautiful, all of your attention to details is a joy to follow.

Ben

[Chance]

Ben,
Thank you for the kind feedback. In response to your questions:

1) The pictures I have posted thus far do not reveal the "final" rudder profile...well it is close to the final however I still have some work do do before the final profile becomes evident, prior to the glass work.

2) Yes, the "final" profile will have the rounded corner on the lower, aft trailing point of the rudder foil. The core you see now has been reduced in size to account for the following allowances: a trailing edge that will add an additional 1" to the for/aft measurement, as well as 1/4" allowance for glass work.

You can barely make it out, but on the aft edge of the core, I milled a rabbet that will accept (receive) the final component: 1/8" X 2" aluminum flat bar that will run the length of the rudder aft edge. I choose this method to accomodate the narrow (width) profile I aim to achieve upon glass lay up, 3/8". For my peace of mind, I thought that having only 1/8" wood core at the trailing edge would be too weak and it would be difficult to conduct my final foil shape if I had to bring each half down to 1/16" on the trailing edge. The aluminum buys me a bit of breathing room and will add to the rigidity and strength of the rudder's trailing sector, without inducing much in weight. Forthcoming photos will depict this much more clearer than I can describe, so enough of me rambling.

Thank you.

[Commander 147]

Ahhh Ha

So that is what that rabbet is all about. I saw it but had no idea why you had done it. Thanks for filling in the blank for me. :-)

Enjoying the progress so far.

[ebb]

Chance, It's amazing and gratifying how we all approach things, and especially this rudder, from different angles.
I have stubby flat plates, forinstance, in three positions each welded into a narrow triangle that comes off a full length shaft from the back third of its circumference.

I'm making a constellation rudder like you are from the same palimpsest pattern Alberg drew on his original lines drawing. I think the only change I made was to tilt the bottom of the blade up an inch at the trailing edge. And I may have a smaller round than what the master has.

Will certainly have foil shape sides. But only half foil since the rudder's front half of the foil is the keel itself. To my way of thinking.
I'm also fattening up the rudder at the keelpost because I think the transition from the keel to the rudder should not step down, but be as fair as possible. That's a can of worms because the rudder shaft is set in to house the original 1" wide wooden rudder we had. A wider rudder can't turn to the angles we need, not only for steering, but to move and remount the rudder when needed.
So while there won't be a step, there will be a space to allow the wide turning angle.

My method was/is to have a center plate of fiberglass laminate that is the shape of the finished rudder in profile. Then I intend to add divinycell foam to the sides of that panel - carve and shape the foil and cover with plain or fancy (kevlar) cloth. Will have to take a couple turns around the shaft to encapsulate. But don't expect water intrusion to ever become a problem.

One of the most clever ideas I've ever seen for insuring that the halves of a rudder stay together was to drill strategic holes thru the blade with a HOLESAW. Then fiberglass thru the holes with fabric strips opposite skin to opposite skin, glue back the doughnut, fair it, and finish with a last layer of glass.
Do this in way of the armature and the rudder will never fail!

Intend to take my trailing edge back to a 1/4" thickness, about the thickness of the center plate, and square it off sharply to break suction.
That long STRAIGHT edge of this style rudder compared with the rounded sure is intriguing, isn't it?

Don't know of anybody who sails a Commander or Areil with one. It's about time! CAN'T WAIT!!!!

[Chance]

My mind is a wandering...

Ebb, Thanks for the most useful insight and once again, more ideas and fresh looks will aide in my course of action as I progress. I too, had thought of way to ensure the halves stay married together but the wholesaw method is something I never would have thought of. I had thought of using stategically placed bronze wood screws, leaving them in and glassing over, or doing nothing and relying solely on the epoxy.

I too, find it most interesting how varried the approaches can be for us "stewards" to seek and progress in reviving out beloved craft, satisfying our talents, pushing the envelope of creativity and easing peace of mind. So many very, very talented, mastery skillful and just plum amazing works demonstrated on this forum. It's a true pleasure to continue to admire and follow progress of the varied challenges we all face.

You hit on an area, I too, have been contemplating: How to increase the thickness of the leading edge of the rudder foil, without compromising the port/stbd turning sweep. Ebb, what is your final thickness to aim to achieve at the leading edge of the foil, just aft of the shaft itself? I was thinking in line of 1-1/4", but have considered as much as 1-1/2". Have you nailed down a final dimension, or did you already finish your constellation style rudder?

Now, if only I was sailing like Ben, up North and so many others! Jerry, where's the cooler air? I'm tired of the mid to upper 90's with heat indexes in the triple digits. By the way, your installed cabinetry is first class all the way!

[ebb]

:oChance,
I messed with the 'keelpost' of A338.
Naturally found the back end of the boat unsymetrical and hollow - so filled & faired it straight - and fattened it up. Worked the cove with sanding sleeves until the gelcoat was gone.
Was influenced by the original scantlings in the same set of Alberg drawings - I believe the keel is two inches wide at the cove where the rudder is mounted. Total, that includes the 1/4" flats on either side of the cove.
Spent too much time and epoxy fairing this socalled keelpost area and making it even and straight from where it leaves the bottom of the hull down to the heel fitting.

I was shocked that Alberg showed a fatter rudder in the plan view of the heel fitting. He shows an 1 1/2" shaft. It meant that the beautiful mahogany and bronze rudder Pearson choose to use - because it was thinner by half, ONE INCH wide rather tham 2"...had to be mounted further inboard.
When we make a simple paper model of the as built 'hinge' effect, the 1" wide rudder swings perfectly.
When we fatten the thickness of the rudder and use the same bearing in the heel fitting, it becomes obvious that either the cove of the keelpost has to be carved back to much less of a cove. Or the fatter rudder itself has to have its radius carved into more of an oval shape to get the swing needed. The swing neeeded matches the swing we have in the cockpit with the tiller.
Can't be anything less. And might have to be more, close as we can get to 80 degrees, which we can't do of course because of what we have. But we need that radical angle to ease the rudder out of its tube and past the heelfitting when we drop it. And when we put it back in.

Made various 1" dowel and doorskin models of failed rudder ideas. Kept one model so to try the fatness of the finished rudder. I'm on the hard so I can't put the work-in-progress rudder in for test fitting. Have to still use the mock-up when pasteing the final bronze and foam rudder together. The rudder is on my next to do list.:o

It's easy enough to make a cardboard rep of what you have and using the heelfitting on your boat and the cove in the keel.... figure out how the rudder will swing within the parameters.
Not talking about making a 3D rudder model, just making a 2D cardboard model of the swing on the flat of the keel fitting. Draw the heel fitting exactly as you have it. cut the original 1" wide rudder and with a push pin see how it actually swung on the heel.
Then cut and paste to see what you have to do to make your new rudder scantlings do what the 1" wide rudder could do.

The new rudder isn't going to perform exactly like a copy of an original one. Fattening the rudder at the keelpost comes with a price. We're assuming the rudder that came with the boat worked pretty good but wasn't hydrodynamic enough for sme fools. A beautiful rudder but it had no foil and came to a big fat round trailing edge. We can work in the foil and narrow the trailing edge but the price will be that the flow of water off the keel onto the nice new fat rudder is going to go over (or into) the space we have to leave at the rudder shaft for the rudder to swing properly.
It can be done but it's a compromis.

Have seen thin fairing strips added to the edge of a straight keel like ours that projected over most of the width of the relief space carved into the rudder....in an attempt to add back the hydrodynamic. It's not much, it's do-able. Have to use bronze* gauge sheet metal. And it's another time consuming thing. Do we have to dap the strips into the keel? What are the strips made of? How do we fasten them on? Maybe we're causing more turbulance than solving it?


How fat your rudder... is how it works out for your app. Looks like Alberg was happy enough with a step from the two inch wide keel to a 1 1/2" wide rudder shaft (that never happened.) In our case, if we have to modify the new rudder, it sure would be easier to add a modicum of thickness (with closed cell pvc foam, perhaps) than to grind it away.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
* no bronze available but half hard copper in gauge sizes is available from on-line metals. There are also plastic sheet like mdr nylon or maybe garolite that would prevail under water.

[Chance]

Today, I managed to remove the old rudder and start the initial clean up. I am so very thankful that previous owners DID NOT use any sort of adhesive (like 3M 5200, etc.). After drilling and driving out the copper pins, the strap and rudder shoe came off all so easily. No bedding compound or adhesive had to be fought over.

[Chance]

A few more photos of today's fun.

[ebb]

Amazing, THAT is a look back in time
Nice work Pearson!

[Chance]

Here's today's venture. I joined the two rudder core halves. After the epoxy cures, I'll remove the clamps and chisel out the notch that will provide the opening for the rudder strap. I still have to profile (taper) the core halves, and will make a jig to assist in this, so that each side remains identical to the other.

[Chance]

A couple more close ups.

[Commander 147]

Chance I continue to be impressed with your work. I am even more impressed when I think you are planning on selling Ceili. You are doing such a fine job on the restoration work you are doing that I have a hard time believing you will be able to part with her when she is done.

So tell me, it looks like the halves are made from 12MM meranti which would make the current thickness close to 1" of the new rudder. Do you plan to thicken the rudder directly behind the keelpost to more closely match the thickness of the keel and if so what is your plan of action to do that without limiting the swing of the rudder? It appears in one of your pictures that you put a radius on the forward edge of the Meranti. What is your plan of action for that area? Will you eventually wrap the bronze keelpost with glass or try to seal the point where they come together without wrapping it?

My own thoughts on the thickness of the rudder directly behind the keelpost are that there is a chance we are creating more turbulance than we are trying to eliminate by thickening the rudder there. But it is only a guess and I certainly do not know the answer. The necessary gap between the aft end of the keel and the forward end of the rudder will create a level of turbulance and do we increase it or decrease it by thickening the forward edge of the rudder? Someone smarter than me would need to answer that question for me.

[Chance]

Jerry,
Excellent questions.
1) I used 18 mm, way overkill, as I had to remove most of it in my tapering jig. I wanted and should have used 12mm like you indicate but they were out of stock when I was down that way to make the purchase.

2) I'm aiming for a final rudder thickness (at the aft end of the shaft) of between 1-1/4" and 1-3/8" after fiberglassing.

3) On Ceili the aft keel area that receives the rudder post fluctuates between 1-1/2 inches to 1-5/8 with the majority of spots I checked measuring 1-9/16 across the cove area and to the outside of the flats that run along each side of the cove. When I take two straight edges and press them up against the hull, the trailing edges of the straight edges continue on a merging course, and eventually make contact. I looked at the area where the rudder sits and feel that the measurements above closely match this measurement point. Of note: I have measured an unmolested original rudder and it was 1-1/4" at the shaft. My rudder was heavily molested by POs and it's hard to say what the original measurement was. Currently the old rudder I recently removed measures just under the original rudder I referenced.

4) Yes, you are correct. I did radias the leading edge of the core where it mates up with the shaft. I did this to facilitate an area to receive thickened epoxy and the starting point where the glass cloth will be laid on.

5) No, I do not plan to wrap the rudder post (shaft) with glass. The area is sealed with a heavy cove bead of thickened epoxy, and will also be covered with cloth. The cloth will terminate at the aft end of the shaft, but will not ride up on it.

6) Here's some photos to illustrate the above.

[Chance]

Today I finished the tapering of the new rudder core. The jig that clamping fixture was a bit of a challege for me because it involed compound angles. It's easy to taper a project when both sides of the jig run parallel to one another, but on this style of rudder (constellation profile), that's not the case. The trailing edge jig runs at two different angles to account for the rudder profile. I did a lot head scratching and discussed the chanllenges with my wife for some time, before proceeding. In the end I'm happy with the outcome. My first side had a little goof where the straight bit dug in a bit too much in one pass, as seen in an earlier post. Needless to say, I perfected the process on the second and last side.

[Chance]

A few more shots.

[Chance]

A few more pics to see the rudder core. I still have to profile the bottom and top edges so that the glass will go on smoothly.

[Commander 147]

Chance

I know you have been a wood worker for a while when I see your approach to projects. I built a jig like your tapering jig to level the top of my workbench when I built it. And I have used similar jigs in the past for other things. Your application of the jig is a very good approach. I like it.

So tell me, now what is the glass layup schedule to encapsulate the rudder? How many layers of what material do you plan to use?

[ebb]

Great looking rudder!
Jerry asks an interesting question. It is a well built structure. The armature is embedded in epoxy and therefor sealed and tight.
Chance has designed his rudder in such a way that he could round off the leading edges of the meranti like the original mahogany rudder was made.
So that the bronze shaft is left bare!!
Always thought that was really sweet and shipwright.

Have to glass with gossemer material to make the tuck over the round at the shaft.
Not around the shaft itself.
I think the aluminum will benefit with the support an encapsulation of the blade with glass would provide.

Assume of course that the rods of the armature where dapped into the shaft befor welding.

We'll have to see what Chance has in mind,
can't wait!

[Chance]

Jerry,
Yes, I have loved working with wood for many years, but I am definately an amatuer, especially when I see work like yours, Mr. professional! I discovered the tapering jig when I re-did Ceili's compression post base in the bilge. Under my glass work I made a teak wedge with the grain running verical (to orient with the compression loading) and that wedge had to be tapered. I utilized the original white oak wedge to base my taper profile on. Anyways, in both applications that I have used such a jig, it has worked very well. For me, it took more time in designing and setting up the jigs fences, than it did to actually perform the router machining.

As to your question regarding the lay-up schedule. I'm sure your well aware of that from a structural standpoint, many thin layers of glass fabric can equal one layer of thicker cloth. Of course there are some variables that can influence this, like resin rich or starved fabric, chemical versus mechanical bonding of the layers, etc..

I have many different weights (ounces) of fabric, but will most likely utilize 6 oz, boat fabric. The down side is it takes much longer to achieve the desired thickness, because it is so thin. The up side is that it bends very easily. There are lighter weights, of which I don't currently have in my possession. EBB, I had to look up the word "Gossemer", have never heard that before, thanks for the educational lesson tonight.

I anticipate that the 6 oz, in this application will work just fine, although it'll be more time consuming. I'm shooting for the skin (glass) thickness to be 1/8". This will in turn widen the entire rudder by 1/4". Humble my simple arithmatic.

I'm aiming for the trailing edge to be no more than 3/8".

Of a related note, and one I don't have an explanation for: Upon measureing my rudder core at three specific points along the shaft, following the tappering, I had three different measurements:
Upper was 31/32", Mid (near where the rudder strap opening will be made) was 1-1/16", and the bottom was 1-1/32".

Prior to measuring, I would have thought that it would have been consistant along the entire length, but no dice, even though the fence that was pressed up against the forward edge of the rudder was parrallel. It must have been to do with the other (trailing) edge fence, at this one had two different angles that came into play. Yes, I did much head scratching. Now, what I really need is a good
thinking" chair that I can post my rear in when I'm confronted with challenges like this. Bottom line, I'm pleased with the initial machining of Ceili's new rudder core and don't expect the minor measurement differences to be an issue.

Ebb, no, the rods were not "tapped" as you might have suspected. Although a great idea, assuming one has the addtional funds that a machinist would charge to do that, I made the decision and felt comfortable with having the holes bored to receive the 3/8" rods and silver brazed. Of course the the joints had to fit very tightly, just likely the keyway and key for the tiller cap assembly.

[Chance]

Jerry,
Sorry, to mention. In response to the number of layers required. I'm not sure at this point. Other folks, who have experience with a multi layer schedule of 6 oz, might know. I'm going to have a scratch block with release fabric on it and will use that as a guage to determine my thickness as I go along. I have used the same method when making my own glass sheets.

[Chance]

Just found this on the net, can't say how accurate it is though. If so, I'm in for a long layup schedule.

8 plies of 10 oz fabric will produce a strong 1/8" laminate weighing 1 lb per sq ft.

[Chance]

Okay,
This is my last research for the evening. Jerry, thanks for stiring my interest in the forthcoming lay-up schedule.

1/8" = .125"
a single layer thickness of hand lay up 6 oz fabric = .010"
Total layers requred to achieve 1/8" = 12.5

So it looks like I'll be applying 12 layers of fabric to the core.

Good night!

[Commander 147]

Chance

Can I make a suggestion? If you build a jig to support the rudder at a convienient working height that allows you to suspend the rudder between two supports from the rudder shaft in a manner that will allow you to pivot the rudder 180 degrees and have access to both sides of the rudder during the layup stage it should speed up the process significantly. You could attach the tiller head to the keyed end of the shaft and use it to lock the rudder in place with one or the other face up to work on. Just a suggestion.

[Chance]

Jerry,
Of course, I'm always open to suggestions and feedback. A most interesting suggestion and one that I may very well try out. Thanks again.

[Commander 147]

Chance

Any more progress on the rudder yet? I'm VERY interested on how things progress for you. I think you are doing a great job and I will in some ways follow your example.

[Chance]

Jerry,
The rudder progress has been slow, but I have taken care of the opening for the strap and have applied (2) layers of cloth to each side. After considering my layup schedule and approach, I determined that I'll have to do one side at a time, alternating between the port and stbd sides. This way I'll have the alternating overlapping glass layers on the bottom and top edges, thus doubling the thickness in these areas.
For the rudder strap opening, I milled the opening, initially with a chisel, then did a final tappering with sand paper. I made the opening larger to allow for the glass layup in this area which is about 1/8" thick, utilizing many small stips of 6 oz. I would love to use heavier cloth but it will not lay nicely around my small rounded over edges along the top and bottom of the rudder foil.
For each layer, I use a roller to apply the epoxy. This ensures even distribution and prevents excess resin rich cloth lay ups.

[Commander 147]

Chance

I continue to be impressed with the level of your craftsmenship. You do mighty fine work my friend. The rudder looks like it is indeed progressing very nicely.

I have been a woodworker for the past 45 or so years. But working with fiberglass and epoxy was new to me when I started this project. I learn a lot from watching you and others here. For example I would not have thought of the blue painters tape to define the limits of the glasswork. I assume you will cut the glass at the edge of the tape and the just peel it off. Do you do that at each layer or will you do it at the end? I would think it would be necessary at each layer.

Also the aluminum trailing edge seems to be good for more than just a strong edge but it also allows you to glass over the exposed face of it and grind the glasswork flush with the trailing edge while all the time keeping the wood totally encapsulated. A brilliant solution to the problem.

I assume you will fair the rudder out after the last of the glass with micro ballons and cabosil mixed in to thicken the epoxy prior to painting.

Are there any other tips you can give me that you learned while doing this? My rudder I think will be much more complicated since I will have a propeller aperature in it. So any guidence would be appreciated.

[Chance]

Jerry,
Thanks for the positive feedback. Your keen observations and attention to deatail are point on.
You are correct, I remove the excess glass (along the painters tape) upon each lay-up layer, but instead of cutting it I use a 3/8 dowel with a small piece of 100 grit to sand the fabric down to the tape. I have been renewing the tape upon each layer, but tonight I left it in place and will see about leaving it in place for the duration. Just so long as it is not disturbed via sanding, it should not be a problem.
I also use many pieces of tape to hold the fabric tight to achieve a nice clean round over along the bottom and top edges.
You are correct about the aluminum. I used a piece of 1/8" X 2" and it definately has allowed me to ensure complete encapsulation of the wood core. It also permits a nice crisp edge to sand back to during each lay-up layer and will facilitate a trailing edge target thickness of 3/8".
You are correct. Upon laying the final layer of fabric, I'll roll on straight epoxy, probably three coats to fill the "weave", then I'll use microballons (cabosil for fairing is unnessary) to conduct the final fairing. But...before painting, I'll coat the entire rudder foil with at least two coats of Interlux barrier coat (I think it's E2000, can't remember off the top of my head if that's the correct number).
Tips, remember not to use too much epoxy on the cloth, you don't want it to float. The saturated cloth achieves the strength, excess epoxy just adds unnessary weight and brittleness. It is much easier to round and bend lighter fabric, you just have to have the patience to use more layers, also use care in the lay out of the fabric so you don't have to sand alot. Also watch that you don't sand "through" the layer of glass you just applied. The best application can be achieved by using 3" epoxy roller sleaves on an oridinary 3" paint roller.

[Commander 147]

I really enjoy learning from someone that has the patience to do the job the right way and not just rush to get it done.

So let me see if I understand your process. You stretch out a layer of cloth and hold it in place with tape on the opposite side of the rudder so when you wet it out it stays put. Is that correct? You don't wet the surface prior to laying out the cloth. And when the cloth is held in place with the tape you use the roller to wet it out and get a nice even coating of epoxy resin.

Something you said has me a little confused. I've been told previously that some cabosil is always required or the epoxy will never stiffen up to a fairing compound consistancy. And my personel experience with the micro ballons has seemed to bear that out. So when I mix a fairing compound I use about 2/3 microballons to 1/3 cabosil for my thickening agents. Are you able to get a thick enough fairing compund that it won't sag with just microballons?

[Chance]

Jerry,
Here's a bit of clarification:

For this application, I am laying the fabric on "dry", then I wet out with the roller. I also use a glue brush (sometimes referred to as acid brushes) to assist in the wet out in tight areas and along the control lines (near the blue painters tape). The tape is use on the fabric comes into use "after" I have conducted the wet out phase. It is not used to hold the fabric, but to aid in ensuring the fabric bends and tightly conforms to my small roundover edges along the top and bottom of the rudder. I wet out the fabric (glass cloth, 6 oz in this case) from the center, rolling from the center up to the top of the rudder, then from the center down to the bottom of the rudder. I work from the shaft side and finish up along the trailing edge. Once the top horizontal surface is fully wetted out. I use the glue brush to pre wet the vertical edges along the top and bottom, then I use small pieces of tape to pull the fabric over along the edge and back over to the opposite side of the rudder.
Be sure to control the epoxy and don't get too carried away with using too much in this area. Where I have the tape on the fabric (back side) should not get epoxy. The aim is to achieve an overlap joint and only to epoxy the upper rounded over edge.
In my experience, when it comes to mixing thickners, fillers, etc., I sometimes use a "brew", and utilize a mix of my own. However, for fairing, I have always been able to use West System 407 (low density filler) which is a blend with a microballon base. I can achieve the thickness or viscosity I want by the amount I add to the epoxy batch. It is true, that I have added a wee bit of colloidal silica at times, but not always. Plus, you more other stuff you add, it defeats one of the objectives of being "easily" sandable upon full cure.
Also, when I'm done with the glass lay up and fill the weave with additional coats of epoxy, a minimum of two maybe three coats, there should be very little "fairing" to do. The fairing process should be conducted prior to the glass lay up schedule. A good glass lay up requires a good, fair base. Fairing compound is not used to cover up a botched glass lay up. From my photos you can see that I already faired the rudder, it's clearly visible through the cloth, as a medium brown color.
Don't forget to maintain a lay up schedule log as you go, so you know how many layers you've applied and on what side.
Here's more shots taken tonight, that help illustrate the above. Hope I have made sense of all this.

[ebb]

you'll find the glass will wrap much easier the more you arrange the cloth to bend on the bias.
The more 45 degree you have the more docile the glass on a wrap becomes.

[Chance]

Ebb,
Thank you Sir. Your feedback jogged my memory as I remember coming across that sometime ago.
You sparked an idea I'm contemplating, and that is to try and use 10 oz, instead of 6, for one on my lay ups, and see how that goes. The key to success is what you brought to my attention, orientating the fibers at a canted 45 degress to the the round over.

Thanks again.

[Commander 147]

Chance

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain all of that for me. It was very helpful in helping me to understand your actual process. And my experience with microballons is with pure microballons that I buy from a local fiberglass supply place and not a blended product like the west 407 which probably has enough cabosil in it to help it stiffen up.

One of the first things I read when I was trying to learn how to do glass work is that you don't want to use any more epoxy than is necessary to get a good wet out. Which is something I have tried to adhear to in my work. But your comment about not wanting to use so much epoxy that you "float" the glass made a lot of sense to me. I can see how if the glass floats up from the surface below it is a much weaker bond.

I assume after the epoxy hardens you trim the excess glass with a sissors or sharp knife and then with a sanding block carefully sand down the rough edge to make a smooth surface for the next layer of glass to roll over.

Thanks again Chance for taking the time to help me learn. And Ebb thanks for your comment also I did not know about the bias trick so that was very helpful also.

[ebb]

When putting dry cloth on a mostly horizontal surface, wetting out the surface first gets the surface primed/soaked and filled well.
Use a marker pen to make guide lines to lay your cut-to-pattern dry cloth on the wet surface.
After the cloth is on you can just pour a puddle and spread the epoxy over the surface with a GREEN PLASTIC SPREADER. They seem to be everywhere. Certainly in a paint store - don't mess with the yellow or red variety! There is a larger and stiffer BLACK plastic speader you should have at hand.
The spreader is pliable and yet stiff enough that you can pull the liquid around and still press the epoxy into the weave. And also as you point out remove excess. I've never had an unused/new green spreader hook onto the cloth and pull it out of shape.

Lighter weight cloth probably has to be laid on the work dry and then juiced. Because you might get a wrinkle that would be hard to squeegy out without messing the weave up. But personally I've never had that problem with modern clioth.

The same technique can be used with Xmat except you can't go over it too many times to pull the liguid around. You'll find that material can be wet out first on some plastic film and then lifted off and placed on the PRE-PRIMED work. Use the green spreader as a squeegy to press the mat onto the work. Xmatt will get pulled apart if poked with a brush too many times.

Cloth is better imco for covering and wrapping the rudder as you are doing.
Don't forget you can probably use peel-ply (polyester suit lining, nylon taffeta or fabric) to pull your wraps and corners real tight. If you use this won't-stick-to-the-laminate cloth to pull your corners tight you will avoid sanding the weave of the lay-up in these critical areas. If epoxy squeezes thru the peel ply when wrapping wipe it off with paper towels.

Imco making a gel with just cabosil/aerosil/fumed silica is stronger and totally compatible with the cloth lay up. I'd be a bit wary of introducing 407 between layers!
The gel, if you are using it to fill the weave of the cloth to get a smooth finish is much harder and more difficult to sand than the 407. But it should go on befor the 407 easy sanding filler.

Sorry, but I should add a caution that if you are using West Systems/Gougeon Bros epoxy you have to be sure to remove any blushing befor you sand or befor going on to the next layer if you let the epoxy go off. Epoxy won't stick to the blush.

It's great to see your closeup progress fotos.
Can't wait to see the result!!!!

[Commander 147]

Chance

Have you finished the rudder yet? Should would enjoy seeing a picture of it's current stage.

[Chance]

Jerry,
No, not quite finished yet. However here is the layup schedule I have completed thus far:

I have applied 4 layers of 6 ounce cloth, and 4 layers of 10 ounce cloth to both the port and starboard sides.

Today, I applied the 5th layer of 10 ounce cloth to the port side and will apply the 5th layer of cloth to the starboard side tomorrow.

I will then access to see if any additional 10 oz layers will be applied. I plan to finish with 2 additional layers of 6 oz for the final lay up. These last two layers will wrap the edges in alternating passes. Thus the edges will receive 24 ounces of additional and final fabric, while the face of the rudder will only see 12 more ounces.

Here's the photos I just took this evening for you.

[Commander 147]

Chance

I dare say you are going to have one of the best built rudders in the fleet!!! I hope mine comes out even close to yours in quality.

We finally got our first day of fall today. The humidity levels were down and I don't think it even made it to the middle 80's today. It was great. I was out there working on Destiny all day.

[Chance]

Here's the updated rudder.

[Chance]

A few more photos.

[mbd]

Awesome work as usual - beautiful! I can't imagine the hours that work of art took to make. It looks hefty - what does that baby weigh?

[Ariel 109]

Beautiful work Chance. You should be working for Spirit Aerosystems building fuselages. I know they have a plant down around your parts.

Ben

[Commander 147]

Chance

I don't know how you sneaked this update in with out me seeing it yesterday but all I can say is WOW!!! what an impressive job you have done. Ceili has a rudder that will never fail and will probably outlive most other parts of the boat. Very impressive work. So are you ready to start one for me now???? Mine will need a propeller aperature please. :D:D:D

You know you tell me I pay attention to detail, but it is obvious you are a master at it. From your pictures I cannot see a single flaw in your work. And that is unusual to say the least. Well done.

[ebb]

Chance,
Now I see to what level I must aspire to come even close.

Truely awesome!. Masterful, you had to have made a hundred of 'em.

And brave you are, electing not to wrap the shaft that I will have to with litlgull's square rudder.

Your design honors our original round plankers and their gorgeous marriage of bronze and mahogany. Especially where the wood met the shaft.
The eye goes to that join - glass meeting bronze. Nice! Very nice indeed!
I'd give it whirl if my armature wasn't spread wide and was more like the original as you have it.
Even so don't believe I could bring it off as well as you have.

There's no reason that separation would occur there, given the rigidity of the design. Can't see the blade moving in relation to the shaft.
Can we see it in the boat!


Now, can you show us how it handles the Commander?:D

[Commander 147]

Chance,
There's no reason that separation would occur there, given the rigidity of the design. Can't see the blade moving in relation to the shaft.
Can we see it in the boat!



You know Ebb even if the shaft did break loose from the epoxy (which I seriously doubt would happen anyway) there is very little wood near the shaft for the water to wick into with the way Chance did the round over on the edge of the wood. And even if that happened and water did wick in the BS1088 Meranti could tolerate it for years without failing.

I can't see how Chance could possibly have done a better job than he did. I am really impressed.

[Commander227]

Chance brought Ceili halfway (Cleveland) the other day and my employee, Tim, brought her the rest of the way to her new home at SYC. I trust Chance had an uneventful trip back to Camden. We now have four Commanders on the property here at SYC, #157, #227, #299 & #257.
We have no immediate plans for Ceili. I would love to jump right in on her but we are pretty booked up in the shop this winter. (including the on going #157 project) There are already a couple of interested parties however.
I must say that even though I have only had the opportunity to take a cursory look at Ceili the workmanship is truly amazing!! Chance has done an incredible job on her. I can't wait to crawl around on her and check it all out.
Thank you Chance for a smooth transaction and your willingness to meet us halfway. I'm sorry I was unable to meet you in person. Tim really enjoyed meeting you and said he could sail with you. (which is big coming from Tim)
Mike
C227

[ebb]

Next Sunday 2/5/12 the Alberg Design Fleet of S.F. will be moving their Sunday breakfast meeting from Berkeley to the Oakland Grill for more quiet and a larger table arrangement. We are owners of Tritons, A-30s, an A-35, at least one Ariel, and at least one Commander.
I know there's one couple with a fin-and-spade Olson. I missed a few meetings, maybe they want to move up to an Alberg!
The membership is growing!

I hear that one of the topics this Sunday will be about a "Triton rescue mission."
I think it's about 2 or 3 boats that want to be saved.
Hey the idea is catching on!
But it's great that we out here on the left coast are beginning to talk about doing something like that. Hope something comes of it.


"I fear this means there is some mischief afoot." S.Holmes

[Commander227]

Ebb,
One of my customers summers here with a Typhoon and winters in Burkley with a Triton. Ralph is a great guy and a lover of all things Alberg. He keeps his Triton at the Burkley marina near the Metophisto Cat. You aught to try'n recruit him into your coffee clutch, he would make a good addition... Knows a lot about boats and can tell a good story.
Mike
C227

[Lucky Dawg]

Yippee! I feel for Chance, but I'm delighted that Ceili is going to get to complete the royal treatment. Cheers to you Mike!

[mbd]

Awesome! Mike, you're starting a renovation revolution up there. And fairest of winds to Chance and his future Alberg-related endeavors! ;)

[Commander227]

Ceili has new owners;
Roger, yacht broker, Ta Shing dealer, former Pacific Seacraft, Beneteau and Catalina dealer.
Woody, former manager at SYC.
Ceili is now in Roger's hanger a few miles away and Tim is moonlighting over there as we are booked solid at SYC.
The goal is to get the decks done, touch up the freeboard and get her rigged and in the water ASAP. We will save painting the freeboard and a few other projects for next winter.
Mike
C227

[Commander227]

Tim just emailed these pictures of Ceili to me. He has the decks faired and painted. They opted for Kiwi Grip for the non skid. I have not seen it yet but Tim likes it and also liked working with it. Soap and water clean up and easy to apply. it is flexible, bridges and fills so the prep work is greatly diminished. He is over there now installing the same rubrail we have on the other Commanders and Ariels. The freeboard has been touched up and Tim reports that it looks pretty good for a bandaid. Now she just needs some hardware installed. She should be in the water within a month.
Another local Commander owner stopped by today (he does not know the number as the data tag is missing) He has been restoring his boat for a few years and thinks it will be done by July 4th. It had been hit by lightning and partially burned before he bought it. That could make five Commanders on our little lake.
Mike
C227

[paulsproesser]

WOW! Is that the flag blue?

[Commander 147]

Mike

I'm guessing you will like Kiwi Grip also the more you see and work with it. I plan on using it on Destiny also and my personal opinion is that it is the best option currently available for non-skid. But as always your mileage may vary. :-)

Celi is looking pretty good. I'll bet Chance will enjoy seeing these photos.

[Commander227]

Ceili sailing in the Lake Minnetonka Burton Cup

[DavidSpaulding]

Chance -- Happy New Year!

I was doing a little surfing and found your posts on the Ariel site detailing all the work you did on Ceili, and all I can say is Wow!

You did so much, and so painstakingly. Someone ended up with a very nice boat, indeed, and I am humbled -- she never would have received that much attention if we still owned her since we have neither the resources nor the skills and knowledge . . . It must have been the definition of the "worst day/best day" saying about selling your boat . . .

Anyway, just wanted to say I really admired your work and it is clear that we sold Ceili to the right buyer. We are tickled pink that at least for now she seems to continue to bear the name of our daughter!

Take care and good luck!

David

[DavidSpaulding]

Mike, aka Commander227,

I meant no disrespect when I singled out Chance above -- you definitely did a lot of work, too, and took Ceili into the end zone! What beautiful results!

[Commander227]

David, no worries... All the heavy lifting was done by chance and his workmanship was over the top.
It is nice to see her land in good hands. Woody and Roger have her back in their shop for further work this winter.
Mike

[Lucky Dawg]

Will her portlights return when she comes back to the shop? While not having them curtails leak issues, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around her whited out eyes!