Commander #65 "Lucky Dawg"

[commanderpete]

1964,Always freshwater, inside storage.Entire boat painted by professional. Refinished Mahogany.New interior and exterior cushions. Yamaha 8 HP with low hours. Perfect day cruiser/overnighter/racer, huge cockpit. 2 spinnakers, Jib, 2 Genoas,2 Mains, Storm Jib. depthmeter, Compass, head. Cradle on trailer. Beautiful boat. Must sell, another child on the way.

http://www.usedboats.com/index.php?site=usedboats.com&section=search&boatId=955711&photo_index=0&maximize=10688613&historyback=11

[commandertobe]

Owner accepted my offer on this boat - pending a survey. Considering the mess that the Ohio Commander was in, the survey is a necessary $$ evil. While looking for a good surveyor, by accident/serendipity I talked with the previous owner who is the service manager for a marina in Sister Bay. Also spoke with the Vice Commader of the local sailing club - everyone seems to know the boat and they speak well of it and the work the current owner has done.
Will keep you posted.

Kyle

(I guess I would have to change my screen name :) )

[commanderpete]

Nice looking boat.

Getting the trailer roadworthy and registered might be a bit of a project.

http://www.usedboats.com/media/images/955711_9.jpeg

[commandertobe]

Yeah, that trailer doesn't look like Tony G's, does it? It does have two axles. I initially thought it was one, but the second is hiding in the weeds. Surveyor is assessing the trailer as well. I have ready access to a steel fabricator, so it just has to make the trip once and I can upgrade or scavenge.

Green Bay to Grand Haven is a good 400 miles by road or, more invitingly, sailing up Green Bay, slipping through the Sturgeon Bay Ship Canal through the Door County peninsula, and a long southeasterly traverse of Lake Michigan, is a nice little 179 mile shakedown cruise. The winds are predictably favorable (the direction anyway) for the trip, but the less predictable seas could be more than I've experienced. :eek: I am a pretty handy small craft sailor, but that is a trip I would need assistance sailing safely. I'll troll for any takers provided this sale moves forward.

Crossing my fingers,
Kyle

[commandertobe]

Survey was good: "You could eat out of the bilge... professional work... he clearly respected this boat... surprisingly good condition... nice job on the varnish work... slight moisture elevation at one chainplate... 91 yamaha runs like a top..." Two problems are old sails and he valued the trailer as scrap metal. Neither will inhibit this sale - I figure nothing's perfect with a 43 year old boat (nothing's quite perfect on my 43 year old bones either.) Sounds like I'll be sailing her home rather than driving. I will finalize things today and reintroduce her to you ASAP! :) :D :)

[Lucky Dawg]

Happy to introduce our new Commander, Hull #65!

Several years ago, I sailed with a friend's family out of Northport, NY on their beautiful Ensign and soon after discovered the Commander - I was hooked.

I've sailed since I was a teenager and I have owned small boats in the past, (I have an MC Scow listed on TrailerSailer.com) but this is my first "real" boat and I'm thrilled. I have been a boatless lurker here for a long time (commandertobe) and I appreciate the knowledge I've absorbed learning about your boats. I bought a manual a year or so ago... After it arrived, my wife Amy "Uh, why are you reading the manual for a boat you don't own?" :D

The surveyor used words like “immaculate” and “lovely,” & “you could eat out of the bilge” and said that the owner “clearly respected her history in the work he did on her.” These are not phrases I expected from the righteously ornery old salt who surveyed her, but he was clearly impressed.

Our options were pulling her trailer for 400 miles from Green Bay through Chicago and around the lake to Grand Haven, sailing her for the first time across springtime Lake Michigan for 179 miles… which of course could be smooth or YIKES, or at the sellers great suggestion, using the SS Badger (http://www.ssbadger.com/content.aspx?Page=Video – try not to dance when you hear the rockin’ theme song) to ferry her across and tow her a short distance to her new home and set-up here. The last one wins. Though it might rouse hisses from the peanut gallery, the sailing option – though enticing – was a daunting shakedown.
The first weekend the Badger sails is 5/12, so we are coordinating the sale on that weekend.

She'll reside 15 minutes from home at Torresen Marine on Muskegon Lake - a nice option to home in Spring Lake, MI. Muskegon Lake offers a large inland lake to sail if the big lake is too rough.

She will be rechristened (with all appropriate diligence to appease the Gods) “Lucky Dawg”

Speaking of, any ideas on how to cleanse her of any bad luck related to her green paint job? Maybe I can create my own apologetic ritual. I might need to know the thinking behind the bad luck of a green boat to take the right steps.

Pictures below are from the ad, many more to follow. Hurry up 5/12!

Excited to be aboard!

p.s. MC Scow listed at http://www.sailboatowners.com/classified/ownerview.tpl?owno=11634349031254470&brsku=11634349031254470.2&new=T&fno=300&xs=All&l1=1&l2=65&p1=1&p2=1000000&ad=all&sb=price&dr=de&bd=trailerable (SOLD)

[Lucky Dawg]

a couple glamour shots...

[Lucky Dawg]

a couple more...

[Lucky Dawg]

and last...

[frank durant]

Pretty...looks like a 'much loved' boat ;)

[mbd]

Good move to buy a beauty like that and just go sailing! Congrats!

[Lucky Dawg]

Trip home on the trailer was uneventful. Some fresh pix below. I have a zillion more. Year old interior cushions. The door has solid boards too, but I like this vented one for show. Note the SS Badger in the background of the picture on the trailer. Trip across on the Badger was windy and cold, but a fantastic alternative to hauling that trialer for 400 miles. PO gave me a pickup load full of supplies as he is getting out of sailing altogether.

[Lucky Dawg]

All of the deck hardware has been rechromed. The shadow picture - probably should have been watching the road, but it was a cool view. Newly fabricated tiller head and oak tiller.
A couple minor improvements over the weekend - installed my windex and cleaned and oiled the teak cockpit sole. Amazing what a little cleaner and teak oil will do. Immediate gratification! Probably should have saved that one for a reward for something more arduous, but I'll take 'em when I can get 'em.
My 3 year old daughter Sadie has claimed the v-berth as her own playroom and my wife Amy enrolled in a sailing class that starts next week. We have sailed together a good bit before - with her as a happy, but fairly passive crew member. She is wanting to feel more informed and competent. Good to have engaged crew!
Mast to be stepped this week. There are a couple cosmetic blemishes and a pending blister question, but hopeful to launch by Memorial Day weekend.

[ebb]

U LUCKY DAWG U !

She'll have a tail waggin bone in her teeth afore long!

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Ebb. Paging through your refit of A-338, I feel like a cheat - or gloating - with this girl. Hope I deserve her. Plan to do her proud. I couldn't do what you've done (well... maybe... eventually... only if it was my full-time avocation)
I love to sail, and I love this boat and have for a long time. But, your skills and those of our peers here put my present ones to shame.
I am humbled - seriously.

[mbd]

Ebb... Paging through your refit of A-338, I feel like a cheat - or gloating - with this girl.I know the feeling well Kyle.:o

But she's a beauty! What a find. Some interesting mods up in post #13 too. Rub rail on top of the coamings and genoa tracks on the toe rails. What's that square "pad" on the coaming, just aft of the winch? Some sort of backing plate?

Really nice brightwork too! And man are those Commander cockpits H-U-G-E!!! Sweet!

We'd love to see more pics! This is, after all, YOUR Gallery page. :D

[Lucky Dawg]

Mike - That shot of the cockpit makes it look the size of an oil tanker deck, eh?
That is a backing plate for a cleat. You know, I hadn't specifically noticed the rub rail on top of the coaming as unique, but it doesn't look out of place and is certainly functional.

The original owner, named Harry Purinton, raced her ("Restless II") from Sturgeon Bay Yacht Club and he and the next owner Rich Larson set her up for racing as she is. Purinton (I don't know anything about him, but...) was a marine architect and painter of some stature. From the pictures I have, the next owner must have let her go because when Matt got her, she needed a good deal of work. Her present status is a testament to the work he and his wife Mary put into her.

In the supplies Matt gave me, came a copy of the 1999 article on the Commander from Good Old Boat. I believe it is now out of print. The article doesn't provide a great deal of new information - mostly a story of the relationship between the owners and their boat C-114, their record setting (at the time, for longest Commander voyages) 1200 mile complete circle of the Great Lakes, and some upgrades they did. In the next week or so, I will scan it and post it here.

couple more pix

a) the lazarette with engine-hole insert and gastank mounts.
b) the closed-cell foam cushions for the cockpit and the shorepower inlet. (cushions from http://ccushions.com/boatlistorder.asp)
c) lovely teak cabin sole
d) all important head - I do have a three year old after all...
and sadly...
e) every lovely has her faults. Two areas on stbd at the waterline about the size of pizza pans with these tiny BB-sized blisters. Open to suggestions for their immediate vs Fall remedies...

[commanderpete]

Might just be a rough surface under the paint. The waterline is hard to keep smooth because slime builds up, dries and hardens there. Areas under the jackstands don't get attention either. Give it a sand and see what you got.

Sweeeeet boat

[ebb]

The fickle finger of fate is pointing to an whole bunch of acne.
Could it be a wrong mix of bottom paints?
There's a lot of activity around a waterline if it was starboard to the sun in the marina?
Cleaning it might have pulled paint off?

Needs a bottom job. You can't have EVERYTHING.:D

[CupOTea]

Great boat, Kyle. The rubrails on the coamings rock as does everything else. I have three questions:

Looks like the original tiller?
Would love to know the make and model of the portable head that fits so well in that spot.
Are the seacocks gone and, if not, were the thru hulls plugged or what?


Scott

[mbd]

Looks like my Ariel has the same portable head as well. (Sanpottie?) Could they be original?? :eek:

I like that panel in front of Lucky Dawg's potty too...

[Lucky Dawg]

Randy the service manager at Torresen popped and scraped a couple spots and had no blister worries - no fluid or stink emitted. I didn't lead him at all, just asked "what's the problem and what's the resolution?" He suggested sanding down those areas, repainting and checking again in the fall at haulout. He couldn't see my relieved grin over the phone but I let him know that he was the "Good News Man" of the day. I'm consulting Don Casey for the best approach.

I will take a couple detail pix today per some of your questions above. I am curious about how (if) the genoa track has backing or if it just attached to the toe rail.

Scott, funny you should ask, but I am such a newbie that I'm not embarassed to say... I was reading BoatWorks mag last night and an article about seacocks and the thought occurred, "Uh, does this boat have seacocks???" (I probably had a head-cocked-sideways look on my face like a confused dog...) Haven't the foggiest idea where, but on the advice of the author -"Know where your seacocks are and be able to find them and assure closure in the dark and possibly with your hands underwater."

Good thoughts to occur *b e f o r e* splashing! I think I read of Geoff having that realization at one point, but it didn't click upon reading that time.

Will be addressing my dearth of knowledge bits at a time over a long while... I appreciate your collective patience with this process.

[MRH]

Congratulations on your new Commander. If you think you're enthusiastic now, wait until you get to know her. Great boat.

Now that you're thinking about the plumbing, its a good time to check the condition of the 2 cockpit drain hoses, each of which connects a cockpit drain near the companionway to a thru hull below. Check the hose clamps too. Most Commanders do not have seacocks installed on these thru-hulls, so if an old hose or hose clamp breaks, you could be in for a long swim.

Seacocks installed on these thru-hulls might provide safety in the event of a break in the hose, but most would be left open while the boat is moored unattended, or while underway to drain the cockpit as intended.

What do others think about installing seacocks on these thru-hulls?

[Bill]

What do others think about installing seacocks on these thru-hulls?

There are discussions of seacocks in the tech forum. Please do a search on "seacocks" for the many sites. Might want to begin with one on the cockpit drains:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1287

[Lucky Dawg]

Scott, to the best of my knowledge, that is a new oak tiller and newly fabricated tiller head. I took a picture of the head - Sealand model 960. Same as Mike's. See below.
One seacock onboard below the sink. Port and starboard cockpit drains are identical clamped (painted) rubber hoses - see below.
There is an unidentified (by me) drain in the bilge which I assume would accomodate a bilge pump. No pump - except a manual one - onboard so far. That seems like a must-do.
I want to bring a bucket to the yard next visit and with a spotter below, pour some water through the two scuppers and two cockpit drains.
Can anyone identify the fitting in the last two pictures? It is on Stbd a couple feet from the bow. Interior fitting leads to the chromed exterior fitting (sorry it is blurry)

[joe]

I believe the unidentified fittings are one fitting and it is a water tank vent. Most water tanks vent inside but some people vent them through the hull. That's as far as my mind goes on it.

[Lucky Dawg]

the genoa track through the toe rail is simply bolted through. No backing plates. Wonder if this is a problem. If it hasn't failed or leaked in 43 years....

Fore and aft terminations of the coaming-top rub rail. They end about 2 feet from the aft end of the coaming.

the panel in front of the head.

and (with all due respect, coming after the head-panel picture) my superb crew.:)

[Lucky Dawg]

Still waiting on the yard's crane to help step my mast... "Oughta be today" - have heard that several times now.

Lucky Dawg came with a load of sails! I have some experimenting to do. A main with one reef point, a "storm main" (that doesn't seem much smaller, but is beefy as all get-out.) A working jib, a storm jib, 4 genoas of various (but quite similar) sizes, and 2 spinnakers. The surveyor rated them as a group as "painter's tarps" which might be a little bit of an exaggeration, but that may remain to be seen.

All of my sails are boldly marked with "6091." Not sure what that particular number is in reference to, but every sail has it blazin' across. I'm thinking that white paint over those numbers and "65" placed there instead probably would look tacky...

My newbie-ness abounds, but I must admit that I don't know how to fly my spinnaker yet. I mean, I understand it in theory, but having never attempted, well... KW has lots o' learnin' to do.

[Bill]

All of my sails are boldly marked with "6091." Not sure what that particular number is in reference to, but every sail has it blazin' across.

Often, a number such as that is an "off shore" racing registration number. Yours is pretty early as the more recent ones are up to six digits, maybe more.

[Lucky Dawg]

Applied my new boat lettering today. Just used a buffer and rubbing compound to take the old name off (With all due respect, "Someday" was a little wistful for my tastes)

Will attend to the rituals of renaming* upon launch tomorrow at 3PM!! WAAAAAHHHHHHOOOOOOO!!!:D

(* Some personalized combination of http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/rename.htm and http://www.48north.com/mr_offline/denaming.htm)

[bill@ariel231]

Your unidentified bilge fitting in post #25 looks like a thru hull for a old datamarine speed sensor. If it unthreads from the inside to expose a cylindrical plug sealed by o-rings, there's a good chance that's what it was....(better to check before you launch rather than after)

good luck on the launch hope all goes well.

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Bill. There is, in fact, a sensor on the outside of the hull in close proximity to this bilge fitting - I hadn't connected the two in my brain. It appears sealed up and the PO didn't ever have a speed sensor running. It had several coats of VC17 covering the window/transducer. I checked the DMI website and making it again operational looks pretty pricey. http://www.dmimarine.com/parts/index.html. My GPS will do the speed sensing for now.
On another speed note, my 8hp Yamaha cranked on the second pull. Whew.
I've been very pleased with Torresen's Marine. As you might imagine from my posts, I have LOTS of questions. They have been super friendly and happy to take a gander at anything I have asked. I am a sucker for good customer service and they've been a pleasure.
First family sail on Friday. Have a lasso, er, teather... and life jacket for my daughter. Getting a 3 year old to wear it without squallerin' is the challenge. (Not getting her to so much as listening to the protestations should she begrudge it!)

[Lucky Dawg]

Issues to deal with this summer. cracking in the paint (I presume only the paint layer.) Is isolated to where water has stood at the toe rails.

[Lucky Dawg]

one more... spit-shined and ready to splash.

[mbd]

Wow! That is one sweet paint job!

[bill@ariel231]

bravo great looking paint.

dang, this mean's I'll need to repaint A-231 next year to keep up with you, Mike D. and the3rdman...... :)

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Y'all. Again, I get no credit - only the benefit of Matt and Mary's (POs) hard work. The amazing thing is that the paint job is 5+ years old - she spent a good bit of that time in a pole barn. Still, the buffer does wonders.
Launch went well. Motor fired right up and I found her slip without crashing into anyone else... Having never piloted such a boat under power, that is saying something. That Alberg class really stands out along the dock.
Promised my crew that I would wait for them till Friday afternoon to sail, but it was tempting this afternoon. Supposed to be beautiful Friday with 16-18kt winds.

[Lucky Dawg]

Maiden Voyage this evening. A glorious sail. a) The luckiest Dawg at the helm. b) I did the de-naming. Amy did the christening. I am piecing together a spreader halyard, but in the mean time... c) flying my A/C and UGA burgees.

(Side note: OK, backing up - and backward navigating - with a tiller and outboard is a challenge! You know the trick with backing up a trailer where you hold the bottom of the steering wheel and the trailer backs more logically? Any tips for backing up more efficiently? Between positioning the outboard and the tiller and avoiding smiting any other boats... Cripes! Some guy came an offered assistance to get me out of the freaking docks. I was clearly exhibiting my mastery...)

[Lucky Dawg]

oops, didn't attach the pix...

[Lucky Dawg]

Got these from the people on Ebay parting out that Commander (They had a Commander main for sale a month or so ago.) Contacted them to see if the boat had coaming logos and here they are. A little repair work and rechroming and I think they'll look sharp (again)

Nice sail this morning with my daughter. She's a natural at the helm, eh?

[Lucky Dawg]

Another beautiful sail today. The reason I can live in Michigan (I'm from Atlanta) is the beautiful summers. Did 6 kts with my "reacher" (as the bag is marked) very light weight genoa.

Nice wing on wing before the wind came up.

[Lucky Dawg]

12-15kts blowing and we defied her theoretical hull speed. (know it's been done before by all of you, but not yet by me)

Our return to port is dictated by nap time, so after a couple of hours, we were done. That's what all old salty captains over the ages have done, no? Children's dramamine kept my daughter from barfing this time at least. That is a nice improvement on the sailing experience for all.

Inclinometer doesn't work, but she heels nonetheless.:D (Ritchie said that it would be about $50 bucks and a couple weeks to put the gimball back on its pivot point.)

Anyone know what (if any) is her optimum heel for greatest hull speed? I know that 0* is the optimum heel in my lovely wife's opinion.

[bill@ariel231]

Kyle

I haven't spent a lot of time measuring the optimal angle of heel for the Ariel but A-231 is pretty happy at 15-20 degrees...

I have a similar compass (mine's a danforth saturn). I've not seen this failure mode with my current model, but you might be able to shake the lubber lines back on the pivot if you take it out of the bulkhead... It worked for me with a previous compass.

Good luck,
Bill

p.s. ritchie has the service manual on-line for your compass if you feel like taking it apart!

http://www.ritchienavigation.com/docs/manual2007/Navigator.pdf

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Bill. Will give shaking the compass a little a whirl before I send it to be serviced.
I was wondering on the heel because I know (though I can't remember what it was) that my MC Scow and my old Laser had optimal angles to get the right wetted surface in the water, and too much heel was counterproductive for speed. Yesterday we were heeling like crazy at 6.1 kts. Tonight on our pizza and cocktail cruise in about 7-10kts of wind we were doing 5.5 with almost none... Just learning the moods of this beautiful boat. A nice pursuit, I'd say.:D

[commanderpete]

Agree with Bill--15-20 degrees gives you a longer waterline

If shaking the compass doesn't work, you can buy a seperate inclinometer. A cheap plastic one or something more fancy

http://www.brasscompass.com/inclinometer.htm

[ebb]

beer bottle in a cup holder?

[Lucky Dawg]

That oughta do just fine, Ebb.

Splashed around on Lake Michigan today for several hours. 10-15kts 2-3' seas. Fun ride. Tried out my new jib downhaul - worked like a charm and a great day to stay off the bouncy foredeck if not necessary. A couple pix below.

Despite the corkscrew motion of the boat, note my obviously stressed out crew.

[Lucky Dawg]

Well, as long as I'm not in danger of being the most voluminous picture poster... A couple more pictures below.

I installed my cowl vent and its canvas cover. A nice visual addition, though it doesn't seem to supply a great deal of air flow below. May be helpful for venting interior heat whilst the boat is closed up.

Had an interesting non-critical, but closer than I'd like right of way issue with the 192', 148 ton Lake Express car ferry today. http://www.lake-express.com/about/vessel.aspx I was sailing SSE at about 3 knots passing 1/4 mile east of the Muskegon Lake Channel. I had heard the Securite' announcement of the ferry arriving and was well clear of it's course as it came down the channel. However, the ferry hit the end of the channel (runs WSW to ENE) headed inbound to its dock approx 2 miles SE and she swung 30* or so to starboard and therefore headed far too close to my course for my comfort. I altered my course 45* to port and sailed well out of the way. Being on the short end of experience, I presumed I must have been in error, but called the Coast Guard station by cell phone after the fact to get their read. Not complaining, just wanted to get an opinion on the situation. Per the helpful Coastie, "It sounds like you had the right of way, but in the end, gross tonnage wins." He said it may have been a draft issue, but that area of the lake is 35-50' deep for a wide area and the ferry draws only 8 feet. May have been more of a shortest distance between two points issue. Coastie said he was following green bouys, but none are visible on the lake. I know right of way wise, he's likely considered comprimised in terms of his latitude to alter course, but on his pre-freak-KW-out course, I was well clear. I was one of only 2 sailboats out today, so I presume it wasn't a visibility issue. I was, in fact, sailing on a close stbd reach and by going around me to starboard, I had a wider latitude to sail away. Had he gone to port, I could have been pinched had the wind shifted or died. Again, I contacted the USCG just to sure up my nav skills and so as not to make the papers at some time in the future. I think it would have been helpful had he announced his intention to alter course prior to doing so at the end of the channel. Should I have hailed him to get that info, or is it his responsibility to be clear in his intentions? In the future, I will be well, well, WELL clear....

[ebb]

The Operator of the Gitche Gumee Express must feel he far outclasses a meager what-cher-macallit... Commander. The site gives his L as 192', his 'width' as 57', and he's running 4 diesel water jets of who knows what monster horse power. Look at the price schedule: adult oneway is $62 PLUS you has to pay separate for the vehicle, $72 - plus the current fuel surcharge. What FUN! After bashing 148 tons at 40mph across the Lake, give the guy a break, he gonna S-L-I-D-E that thing into the berth.
His vessel was built in Mobile Alabama. Commanders were built in Bristol, Rhode Island - which explains everything.

BUT, more to the point,
is that beautiful dolled up cowl vent! Gorgeous.
Isn't it a great casting? Looks like the register knob works too, you sweet water guys have all the perks.:D

[Lucky Dawg]

His vessel was built in Mobile Alabama. Commanders were built in Bristol, Rhode Island - which explains everything.

Careful now, I'm a Georgia boy ;) We su'thun folk can still pound out a yacht. The boy just got differ't attitude.

per below, I altered my course to port at the moment the ferry took the stbd turn below. His line is clearer from Google Earth than it was on the water.

[Lucky Dawg]

and he's running 4 diesel water jets of who knows what monster horse power.

12,000 hp!!! "four diesel engines producing 3000hp each which drive four independent water jets."

[Lucky Dawg]

I never tire of these views. You might...
- A nice starboard tack. Steady wind at 12kts on Friday afternoon for a beautiful sail.
- burgees in place on my flag halyard. You should feel touched that my UGA burgee is flying below my A/C assn. burgee.
- Found a guy www.sirchromealot.com (http://www.sirchromealot.com) that will repair and chrome my emblems for $150. May take him up on it in the fall - the list of fall projects is growing, of course. In the mean time... Looks a little cramped where it fit so I may have to move the cleats back a couple inches.
- When I had my UGA burgee made, I had offered that the UGA sailing club could purchase some at the discounted price multiple burgees would offer. They are broke college students and weren't interested in bulk purchases, so I ended up just sending them one for their office. They sent me a club tshirt with the great Sailing Dawg image on the back.

[ebb]

Kyle,
That shot (52) of the portside coaming winches is interesting for non-romantical reasons too! The featured winch base is real interesting because it looks like it's welded aluminum. It looks simple and straight-forward. It seems like it's a great way out of the winch island dilemma - in weight for sure.
(bulb lites up..)
Looking at it and thinking of how some skippers want to sit on the coaming (maybe more of an Ariel thing)...
why not make a coaming-out extension exactly the same way for sitting on???
Make a longer 'coaming seat' that the winch could share?
Help support the poor coaming.
Design it the same way, slightly lower, to have a key for the posterior.

Great shot!:D

[Lucky Dawg]

Hummm, I never seem to have the urge to sit on the coaming. My bony arse my be part of that aversion. We Commander captains also have a smidge more cockpit space though, eh? I'll take some pix of those winch bases. Frankly, I'd trade lightweight aluminum for the sumptuous wooden winch bases on A-350 any day. http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=651&page=3&highlight=Exterior+Varnish (see post #45)

[Lucky Dawg]

Was able to sail Friday Sunday and Monday this weekend. Sweet! Yesterday was stunning - NNW wind at 12-14, comfortable 2 foot rollers on Lake MI. A hint of cooler temps in the air remind me that the sailing season here is shorter than I'd like. Avg temps drop 10 degrees a month from July to December.
Winch base pictures. Primary winches don't match, but it doesn't disturb the aesthetic much for me...

[mbd]

Keep 'em coming Kyle! For my part, pictures really help to get the ideas for hardware placement and aesthetics rolling. I love seeing what others are doing on their boats. Amazing how "buff" the your original hardware is!

[ebb]

Kyle, Thanks for the shots at #55 of the winch brackets.
Have a real liking for the shopmade welded over the cast. Tho the cast IS special!
It's the openness.

Easy to see that the 'leg' could be tilted in more for more deck room. Foot room. Just an observation. We've seen wood and bronze winch brackets that triangulate on the coamings alone, with nothing down on the deck. But this way they contribute alot of support to the coaming. Double duty.

Have recently played around with 6061T6 (considered marine) aluminum from OnlineMetals. Haven't compared prices. You get just the quanity you want from them. I'll never trust myself to stack-of-dimes welding but making models from ideas can do til next Wednesday. The hard material can be cut with a jigsaw and Bosch blades. Even scrolled shapes out of a (expensive) piece of 6"ID pipe, 5/16"wall was pretty easy, smoothed up with angle grinder and coarse flap wheel, metal file and sand paper. It's really just HARD wood! Took my piece to the professionals to stick it together.
I can 'see' those two sheet winches on a side on one extended bracket with the width the winches need left for the jammers and the incidental bummer.:rolleyes:

Thanks for sharing the idea....!
May have seendalite and come up with something for LittleGull.

[Paul]

Kyle, I spotted the track on the toe rail could you tell me what kind of backup is on the inside that's how mine are but there is no backup the machine screws 1/4x20 are just tapped into epoxy when I drilled threw they are so close to the hull I can hardly get a washer on the bolt Ebb, I would like to see a picture of your pipe winch stand

[ebb]

Paul, I can't answer for Kyle,
but I would at least screw a nut onto maybe longer bolts.
Every once in while a nut without a washer is OK in a series, especially if that's all you can do.
I don't know how you can see anything up in the cove. but longer bolts should be able to have nuts screwed on.
You can sometimes cheat and bend the bolt end a little into free space.
Must get the nut on so you can use it to pry the bolt over. This is pretty radical - you may have a hard time removing the machine screw later.
Most s.s. 1/4" washers are 5/8" diameter. You could look around and find 1/2" wide washers - that might fit better up in the cove. Even silicon washers on s.s machine screws would be OK to use. McMasterCarr usually gives dimensions of fastenings in their online catalog.

If you want to be a surgeon: Go to W.L.Fuller.Inc and get a Type "X" counterbore for a 1/4" drill bit. You will need a longer bit than a jobber.
You tighten this counterbore on the bit with a couple set screws -
put the bit into the existing hole -
and drill UP from inside. (you have had the bolts and track removed:rolleyes: ).
This counterbore is made to create a flat for washers. Maybe not in fiberglass but what do you care, this is a one time deal.
You may get by by just CAREFULLY probing the area around where the bolt comes thru so that a washer will want to fit there - you don't want to go thru the cove! The counterbore makes a 5/8" hole - but you would be just making a flat surface for the washer and nut.
5/8"s is pretty wide up in the cove. If you have found the smaller 1/4" washers that are 1/2" wide, Fuller has a long Type "M" counter bore for a long 1/4" bit that will make a flat 1/2" circle. Haven't used this one. You're kindof limited by how much room you have to get the cordless drill and bit/counterbore in the cove.
Fuller is a family-owned outfit.


The extended two winch aluminum base along the coaming - with the center seat - is just an idea.

You may be able to find 'cardboard' sona tubes of many diameters that are used in concrete forming. Usually at your local ready-mix supplier. I happened to have an onlinemetal's shipment sent in one that was close in size to the six inch aluminum pipe I didn't know they had till I looked it up.
I just made shapes from paper patterns (ideas) and cut them out of the cardboard tube with the jigsaw til I had what looked right. I was trying to design a bowsprit.

It's easy to see that (winch bracket) legs could be got out of cutting pipe lengthwise using NON-parallel lines, wider at one end or the other. Just like furniture. Get nice tapers that have constant radiuses that'll make anything more interesting. I'm just BSing. If the idea coagulates into something interesting maybe it'll appear in the Gallery forum.

I think Kyle should immediately give up sailing for the rest of the season and develop this aluminum winch island idea. Give up on that silly varnished mahogany island he covets so much and spend all the time he can like I do making improvements under a tent in a boat yard. SAILING? H-r-u-m-p-h!:rolleyes:

[Lucky Dawg]

I think Kyle should immediately give up sailing... and spend all the time he can like I do making improvements under a tent in a boat yard. SAILING? H-r-u-m-p-h!:rolleyes:

HA! Come to MI Ebb and I'll host some on the water vacation hours from your toils under the tent.

I would love to score some affordable interior space for the winter. Working on that option... The chiding I need is "I think Kyle needs to give sailing a rest one weekend and address the peeled paint at his toe rail and scuppers!"

Paul if you look back at post #27 in this thread, there is an interior picture of the backing to the toe rail. Maybe 2"-ish bolts and nuts. No backing plates though - I'll add something to that effect down the road - hopefully before a sickening groan from the t-track extracting itself from the toe rail under genoa load.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hosted my college roommate and his family on Lucky Dawg last week.
- Dave and his family
- El Capitan KW

As is normally the course of events, sailing put them all to sleep before it was all over.

[Lucky Dawg]

Amazing how "buff" the your original hardware is!

Thanks Mike, again, kudos go to PO - he had much of that chrome redone. I am realizing now what a significant investment that was. The only thing I'm "doing with (my) boat" so far is sailing!

[Lucky Dawg]

Fun, very windy day on the lake. Wind built to 17kt with 22kt gusts - overpowering us a smidge! Sooo… new experience of reefing the main whilst underway – a little hairy threading a line through the reef points what with frenetic flapping in the gusts. I know I can use hooks, but making due under the circumstances. I have to research here a better reefing setup – especially outhaul – not that I needed sail efficiency in the wind today, but the sail shape probably wouldn't pass muster…

[Che]

Hi Kyle...
We have experienced some gusty winds this summer here in the Bay Area...and I have noticed that when I am underway and need to reef...I simply hove-to....everything mellows out...and it gives me all the time I need to put a reef in the Main...once the reef is in....I simply tack the jib over and continue on my way...My main is set up with Jiffy reefing and it has worked well...Just a thought...enjoy...

Adam

[Bill]

"Jiffy" or "slab" reefing is simple and a relatively easy system to operate. It can even be a "single line" set up (see Harken). Running the line(s) back to the cockpit make it very safe -- Starboard tack, lower the main, pull the reefing line(s), raise the main. Continue sailing. A Google search on jiffy or slab reefing will likely show you the setup.

[Lucky Dawg]

ahh yes... heaving to would have made more sense. I apparently like to do things the hard way. My vast experience shows....:o

[mbd]

How to heave-to?

I know it's here somewhere, but I'm curious how it's done, especially when you need to reef. Backwind the jib and tie the tiller off to windward, right?

Can you heave-to with both sails?

PS. Recently saw a picture of Che on the Monitor Windvane site...

[commanderpete]

I've found it varies with the wind, sea state and how big a jib.

You may need some drive from the main to get the bow closer to the wind--ease the main and/or tie the tiller to leeward

[mbd]

Thanks CP - I got over my laziness and hit the search and have been reading up on it. I just need to get out there and try it out, now. Not much season left though, haul out is scheduled for October 11. :(

[Lucky Dawg]

Silly question at this late date, but can someone tell me the function of the woodwork just to port of the sink in my post #9 http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15093&postcount=9? It would be nice if the forward section held the hatch boards, but it's too narrow. I wondered if the taller aft section is for my fire extinguisher - which is attached to the bulkhead. I thought a function would eventually present itself, but not as of yet.

Had some photos of Lucky Dawg taken yesterday afternoon. I had been carrying around a disposable camera for several weeks waiting for an opportune moment to get someone to take some pictures. This guy and his dog were motoring by in a Boston Whaler just as I was hoisting my sails. Flagged him down and as I went to hand him my crappy camera, he whipped out a monster professional camera with a foot-long lens. Said he had just come out to take pictures. I must be living right.

I know she is a pretty girl, but I've never seen her from this perspective.

[mbd]

The tall one: holder for a roll of paper towels?

[bill@ariel231]

I've seen a system like that for plates on the left and coffee cups on the right (handles fit in the slot).

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks for the thoughts, but too skinny for paper towels, and without coffee or much food consumed onboard... this spot may turn into a hatch-board storage site.

_____________________


We've had an incredibly warm fall so far. Denial only lasts so long on the Great lakes. Below on the water last week... and what is soon to come...:(

[bill@ariel231]

burr.... glad we don't get that much ice on Narragansett Bay! :eek:

[Lucky Dawg]

Got the whole kit and kaboodle of 48 images from my photographer.

If you'd like to see the whole series of pix, go to:

http://picasaweb.google.com/kyle.amy.sadie/LuckyDawgUnderSail/photo?authkey=Wns7XAnx79k#s5179102142608973698


(possible that no one besides me wants to see 48 pictures of Lucky Dawg :) )

[ebb]

Really nice!!!
Series shots always tell a story..
so I got sail around you too and check out her angles wide and tall....
try and figure out what make of boat she is from her numbers. McAlbirg?

Great side-on shots seem to stretch LD into a longer day sailor. Couple shots she's at least thirty feet...

Commanders have elegant lines and proportions.
Wholly apart from an Ariel.
You just have to focus on those amazing macho mahogany coamings. And that long comfortable cockpit run aft of the cabin. With that lucky dawg sitting at the tiller. Equal to any six figure martini scow. A beautiful sailboat.

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Man. She's brought us a lot of joy this season.

The sails don't give a clue re her origins, do they? When I get new sails, they'll look like below - not that anyone knows that Commander logo... I toyed with the idea of the Pearson logo, but I think she deserves to be set apart. Carl gets compliments on her every time I take her out. Usually preceeded by "What IS that boat?? She's beautiful!"

We're a smart bunch with lovely boats. :D

[joe]

We're a smart bunch with lovely boats. :D

Smart bunch indeed; I should think that Brilliant would be more like it :)

[mbowman]

Hey Kyle, thanks for the pix on your beauty. What part of Georgia are you from? We have a 1966 Ariel on a small lake just outside of Birmingham Alabama. When we moved from the coast of Ala, the boat had to come with us. We miss the big water of Mobile Bay, but at least we have her close. She was missused for many years so we are trying to get her back in shape.
Thanks again for you pix.
mike

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Mike. How about some more pictures of Red Pepper? You started from a challenging spot and we'd love to see what you've done. Any water left in your lake? Tough drought.
I was born and raised in Atlanta. Graduated from UGA in '87 (hence Lucky Dawg.) After a couple of sojourns around the country, I came back home and met my wife Amy while we were both hospice social workers - you don't think of hospice as being a romantic hotbed, but love is funny that way. We now live in her hometown here on Lake Michigan. Moved here after our 3 year old was born. Good place to raise her (and our little boy who is on the way circa 3/10/08!) Troubling that they'll grow up saying "y'all" and "fixin' to" etc with a Michigan accent. Grand Haven is a nice small town though painfully conservative. I do miss the South and certainly miss the whole spectrum of big city life. I don't miss smog or traffic or being land locked though! 7 minutes to my office and 15 to sail.
Update that gallery - maybe Bill can change the name to "Red Pepper!"

[Lucky Dawg]

Crashing along at 6+ knots in 3-5 footers and 12-15 knots of wind on the Big Lake today. Pretty wet and wild ride. I'm thankful for a nice Gill storm jacket or I would have been drenched. The waves were fun till I hit the 85' depth zone a mile or so offshore - twice out and back, both times I got to about that depth and the waves coming abeam seemed to get much bigger! :eek: Weather on the VHF said 3-5, but they always look a lot bigger. Camera doesn't quite capture... Lucky Dawg seemed to enjoy every minute of it.

Once back on Muskegon Lake headed home, I had some time to have fun with multi-tasking.

I think next weekend is the end of the line for the season. :( I'm with Stephan - 6 months on the hard is brutal.

[mbowman]

looks like a great trip. Kyle check out some of my pics on "Red Pepper" its just a few but you'll get an idea of hows she's doing. My son and I did a "photo shoot" for his school magazine, so i just made figure 8's around the dock. had very light wind that day.
mike

[ebb]

Let's get those kite-cams up there you brilliant guys!

[Tim Mertinooke]

Ebb, that sounds like a perfect project for you to wrap your brain around. I would love to see an "ariel" shot of Little Gull.:)

[ebb]

I'll leave that kite cam stuff up to you guys.

BUT
If I ever have the time - HAH - I'd put it into developing a kellet cam.
The idea is to send a camera or corder down the anchor line to see how well the anchor is set. Good idea?

First models would be relatively simple and probably be limited in depth. Upgrades might include infrared or remote wider angled views of the bottom and stuff like that.

Every cruiser will want one of those.
Think it's a marketable idea. Have to cut costs so it would be affordable. Probably available already.

[Jack]

ebb... two words, otter box. These waterproof boxes would do the trick with just about any conventional camcorder. Just send it down, and then pull it up and check the footage.

Just a thought.

[ebb]

Jack,
The estate here acquired a battery-powered game camera. It's a Pelican case that has been altered to hold a digital camera, an infra red light, and a motion detector. Like rafting boxes and survival, law enforcement cases it's made from bulletproof polypropylene. Very nicely molded, thoughtfully designed. It's weatherproof I'd guess, as the box contains sensitive electronics, but it's not really designed for in water use.

There are some camera cases that will go to some depths - don't know which ones they are - most of these Fuerte and Hardigg cases are only good for three feet immersion. I mean as I understand it.

For a camera you could lower I might start first models with PVC pipe that could be screwed together just to see what came up. Lens, gaskets, machining... Don't know how you'd control the camera on an anchor rode and/or chain. You'd need self contained light for sure, you'd need weight to get it down, you'd need a non-focus digital camera that had excellent detail. The game camera has a 100ft useful range with a 40degree angle of field. How you make something that you want to take apart simply waterproof at 50 feet say is the challenge.

Another approach would be to use the anchor's retrieval line/buoy to lower the camera rather than the rode. A straight down looksee might be easier to acheive than a side view..

Anyway there is a lot of expertise available for inspiration. It would be nice just to see if something would work, then perfect it, then see whose patent you're infringing.

If it was just a cool jig that could assembled by anyone, that would be even better.
[One tube is your light
Another tube holds the camera
This tube has lead in it.
Bundle them up with some hose clamps
and toss it in the drink.}

[Jack]

Great ideas.

Another idea I had (although it is a little more out there) would be to design a ROV on the cheap. Hook up some kind of camera to a remote control submarine model and send that down to inspect.

I think this would fail the cost effectiveness test for individual owners, but might be something worth offering as a service to boat owners. Who knows, maybe I can rig something and use it to save up for a Commander?:)

[commanderpete]

I'm afraid the technology is already there

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/search/search.asp?r=Page%3A+%2FDefault.asp+KW+Box&s=SEARCH&a=search&k=underwater

How 'bout those pics of the Dawg?

The Arielites are going to need to step up

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Pete. Lucky Dawg makes an elegant screen saver for my desktop.

Started to post this in Che's thread, but I didn't want to highjack...

Comparatively (re his sailing description :eek: http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=16561&postcount=90), I tried to sail Lucky Dawg to her winter storage in Grand Haven 12 miles south on Lake Michigan yesterday - and 8-10 footers (marine forecast was for 4-7) with 22 knots of wind chased me back. I only got 50 yards past the pier head - gunning the engine at full speed into the westerly winds to get into the lake. Drove out and checked conditions for today - presently nice but a gale warning has been posted since earlier when I went to check - the waves are supposed to build big. (See http://www.surfgrandhaven.com (http://www.surfgrandhaven.com/) for 4 rotating live views) I stopped in at the Muskegon Coast Guard Station to see if they had better prospective wave height information - seeking a window for the trip down the shore this afternoon. In speaking to the post commander, I said I had tried to sail out yesterday and he said "WAS THAT YOU!?! Man, I want to shake your hand." I think it was a friendly way of calling me an idiot. LD never dipped her bow or stern under any waves and I felt secure with her under me, but the seas were abeam and pretty steep. (Must admit I felt a little scared *after* the fact...) I surfed at 10.2 knots on a broad reach coming back into the channel! Re sailing today, the commander said "I'm not going to tell you what to do, but we sent our 49 footer up the river this morning..." Will try again on Monday.

Yesterday, I took Stephan's comment re C-257's bridge deck into account and bungied two hatch boards in place to ward off any cockpit-invading waves flooding my cabin.

I want to take a heavy weather sailing class somewhere... LD is much more competent in these conditions than I am.

Che, you are a stud.

[commanderpete]

Sounds like you're well on the way Kyle.

If you sign up for Netflix, they have a number of sailing DVDs. There is a 5 disc set of the Annapolis Book of Seamanship. One disc is on heavy weather.

There is another disc called "Sailing in Heavy Weather" that was pretty good.

I've watched all of the boating videos on Netflix. Most of them are really bad, truly awful. But, it's something to do over the Winter

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Man. I appreciate the encouragement. Great idea re the videos. I'll need a fix... or twelve over the winter on the hard.
Don't get me wrong, I'm pleased that LD is more competent than I. Just want to do her proud - sinking her would not do so! It might be something about my psyche and limits in general - I felt compelled to run several Half Iron Man races in college - mostly out of curiosity. Was just curious about what my limits were (I discovered them.) I seem to need to know ranges to get a good feel for things. Monday of this week being one of them... 8-10s will be a limit at/above which I'll defer to the little lake for a while!
On a related note, reading Treacherous Waters - Tom Lochhaas, ed. http://mhprofessional.com/product.php?isbn=0071388842&cat=&promocode= Before I buy the farm, I may need to sail the Screaming 50's - with a learned companion...

[Lucky Dawg]

Tried again today to sail LD south to Grand Haven for storage. Terrific sail, but big waves from WSW made for an exhilarating sail into and away from them, but notsomuch headed south with biggun's from abeam. Bagged the 12 miles southward for another day. I must say, she's a great little surfer! 37* sailing is better than no sailing.

Upon my return to Torresen's, by chance, I'm lined up with a couple kissin' cousins, I think. The first is an O'Day Tempest - hump on the lazarette being the give-away. I think the second is a Rhodes, but I'm not sure of the make, and LD is next. A couple nice old gals in a row. Not sure how their genes intermingle, but they certainly seem related.

Lucky Dawg is one of 4 boats left in the water. If she can't make it south this weekend, after what will be the 5th attempt, I'm taking the hint and keeping her where she is.

[Lucky Dawg]

Caught the Dawgs live in Athens last weekend. Nothing like 4th row seats and 92,746 screaming Georgia Bulldogs sharing a beautiful Athens afternoon.

Segue being, Lucky Dawg's namesake and doppelganger...

[Lucky Dawg]

Delivered LD to Grand Haven finally yesterday. Sailed out in a cool ice fog. Picture below from shore - you can just make out the Muskegon Lighthouse in the lower left corner. Light wind on my nose for most of the trip made for a slow go of it, but it was a beautiful day.

Passed my father-in-law in his little Hatteras dingy making the reverse transit to his winter storage - that's usually part of son-in-law duty, but I was otherwise occupied. Res Ispa ain't got nothin' on the Dawg... except another 38 tons of displacement. Luckily he didn't nail the twin 650 diesels till well astern.

[Lucky Dawg]

I'd asked some time ago if anyone knew what exactly about a green painted boat (or blue too apparently) was unlucky...

Answer to my own question from http://www.answers.com/topic/unlucky-colors:
Old superstition limits choice of boat colors


Superstition has always played a large role in sailors’ lives, and no doubt always will. There is still so much about the sea, its moods, and its inhabitants that is unexplained or incomprehensible that even today it would seem foolish, if not irresponsible, to ignore the superstitious practices of our forebears. That’s why it’s considered unlucky to paint a boat blue or green, the colors of the sea. In ancient times, boats were believed to have their own souls (inherited, incidentally, from human sacrifices) and could not presume to identify themselves with the sea or any of the gods who managed its affairs. Punishment would surely follow any boat discovered to have been masquerading under false colors. Modern skeptics will no doubt scoff at such patent nonsense, but there will always be many sailors who will abide by old superstitions—if only to quell those primordial feelings of un-ease. And why not? Sailors need all the luck they can get at sea, and heeding the time-honored warnings of yore seems a reasonably convenient way to earn it— and score points for the black box.See also Black Box Theory (http://www.answers.com/topic/black-box-theory); Figureheads (http://www.answers.com/topic/figureheads-1); Sailing on Friday (http://www.answers.com/topic/sailing-on-friday); Unlucky Names (http://www.answers.com/topic/unlucky-names).

On a similar note, hopefully "Lucky" Dawg isn't causing ire in the depths:


"Beware of naming your boat after fearsome creatures


Just as there are unlucky colors, there are also unlucky names for boats. A vessel with a name that is too presumptuous has long been believed to attract bad luck. Presumptuous names are those that challenge the sea or the wind, especially those that boast about beating the elements and surviving their meanest blows. To call a boat Sea Conqueror or Hurricane Tamer is to tempt the fates. The gods of the wind and sea are all-powerful, and they like boat names to be suitably humble. You may recall from Greek mythology that the most important of the Titans, the vengeful Kronos, cut off his father’s genitals with a sickle and threw them into the sea. You can probably imagine how Neptune, god the sea, felt about that. Yet, in 1912, the British White Star steamship company was foolish enough to name its new Atlantic liner Titanic. Not only that, but it claimed she was unsinkable, and it launched her without a proper naming ceremony, thus depriving the gods of their share of the usual libation. Little wonder she was doomed. In the 2001 edition of The Mariner’s Book of Days, author Peter Spectre says the all-time favorite names for ships are Mary and Elizabeth. He warns that to avoid bad luck, you shouldn’t name a vessel after any of the following:

storms: Hurricane, Gale, Cyclone
fearsome creatures of the deep: Kraken, Octopus, Serpent
cataclysms: Quake, Eruption, Big Bang
evil characters: Judas, Brutus, Pilate

[Lucky Dawg]

Lucky Dawg has new crew! Please welcome Lucas Irwin Williams! Born 3/5/08.

8lbs and 3oz of future Commander sailor. :)

[ebb]

Can already tell Luca's got a great sense of humor...
may yer wee swob grow up to love sailing!:D

[commanderpete]

He'll be a sailor in no time :D

[Lucky Dawg]

Projects in the hopper - I'm at about 60% on the skill-cluelessness coefficients for all of them:

re-glassing the hole I drilled in the keel at haul-out
(this one I understand pretty completely)
electric and manual bilge pump system
(I have some drawings and have read a lot here about this. I'm investigating how the actual pump stays secure at the bottom of the bilge. Cutting any holes in the boat makes me nervous. Cutting the holes before I splash seems to make more safety-sense. Wish me luck)
sealing leaky cabin windows
(I am certain that the fix for this is on these pages. The dribbling leaks continually threaten my dashing interior cushions with mold and that isn't good.)
fixing the two spots pictured in post #33 http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15638&postcount=33
(I am a little leery on grinding/sanding these - but looking at others' overhauls points out the fact that anything can be repaired with fiberglass work. How deep, how wide, how to rematch, etc. Again the answer is here or in Don Casey literature on the shelf. The crazing evident in the pictures is fairly widespread. I'll need to figure out if that is a repainting issue or a sand the whole deck issue...)
wiring upgrades
(greater battery capacity, hardwired GPS, stereo, etc. AA batteries are a pain and not very environmentally sensitive. I ordered Casey's electrical systems book over the winter, but it doesn't address outboard systems - clearly anyway. I imagine I can interpolate battery issues for inboards to outboard uses.)I am only telling you this for some external accountability to get busy! So, I am setting about making a project-completion plan and reading lots of old posts.

(p.s. After all this time, I just noticed that there is a spell-check option here. Mark Twain said something along the lines of "I can't respect a man who can't spell any word at least three different ways." Mr. Twain would have a lot of respect for me.)

[mbd]

electric and manual bilge pump system
(I have some drawings and have read a lot here about this. I'm investigating how the actual pump stays secure at the bottom of the bilge.)

Kyle, my bilge pump is screwed to a small board wrapped in lead to keep it on the bottom. I like this setup because I can pull the whole mess up and out to work on it when the bilge pump starts having fits.

[Lucky Dawg]

Great thought. I had imagined sticking it down with epoxy or wedging a board in. Does the lead wrapped board deteriorate sloshing around in the bilge water?

[mbd]

Yeah, but it's removed each season and in and out of there a lot during the season, so there are plenty of opportunities to inspect it.

All you'd really need is something to attach the pump to and heavy enough to sink it. I wonder what the smart guys/gals on the forum do with theirs? I suppose the search button would turn up a lot of alternatives, but I'm at work, so I suppose I should get back to it. ;)

[Westgate]

Kyle,

On Arthur we have a manual pump who's hose goes to the deepest part of the bilge just aft of the keel void. I pump this out by hand when needed which up to now has only been after the ice melt from the fridge has drained out. It is a Titan whale gusher and can really move a lot of water in a hurry. Just to see what it could do I filled the bilge up with water and had it pumped dry in under two minutes.

http://images.westmarine.com/full/03525_f.jpg

We also have an electric bilge pump (Rule 2000 I think) mounted into the floor of the bilge using 3/16" SS screws. It sits below the sole access panel closest to the companionway. Does a Commander have two access hatches? The glass is thick enough there that 3/16" does not penetrate through and beside all you would go into would be the keel void which is dry as a bone right :rolleyes:. Remember to mount the switch higher than the pump which is easy since the bilge floor slopes up fast right there.

I like this system because the electric pump stays high and dry 99% of the time but is there if needed. It is also easy to get to for inspection and cleaning. I have not measured exactly how much water has to be present to turn the bilge pump on but I ran a hose into the bilge after initial set up and I took a minute or two to "fill" the aft bilge to the turn on level. Some say you need two pumps, some more. I think that the important thing is to have at least one manual and one electric and of course one bucket ;).


Sounds like your windows need rebedding. :eek: We did it last year and it was a messy but straight forward job. Took all day to do the first two but an hour to do the last two! We bought a big 'ol piece of 1/2" Lexan from the local glass house and I cut the panes using the old ones as templates. I cut them out over-sized and did final shaping using my table top sander. Follow Lackey's advice and use longer screws and nuts during the initial set-up. Makes life a lot easier. I recommend using butyl I got mine at ACE. If you have time fill in the void between the inner and outer skins using the techniques described by Ebb. Makes for a tigher, cleaner final product. I remember the hardest part of the job was cleaning all the junk (Silicon 5200 buytl) off the old frames. Finally ended up using a wire wheel on my drill. Took it off pretty fast

Andrew

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Andrew. Great info. My bilge system - like you describe on Arthur - is based on the recommendations in the extensive bilge discussion at http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=105&highlight=bilge

And I think there is a "Silicone is Pure Evil" (!) discussion too.

I'm similar to you - dreadfully slow start (all day for the first pair, and two hours for the other), and once I figure it out it seems like cake. Just have to get my hands in it. Kinesthetic learning I think they call it. I want to come hang out with some of you and watch your handywork!

[Westgate]

Kyle,

I am a newbie at this too!


I figured out that one must be able to,

"Carryout airborn ambulatory activity using the posterior portion of ones outherwear.:D"

Andrew

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1839/gillandfinn196543815407gq3.jpg

[Lucky Dawg]

A smattering of pictures. A bit less sailing this year with an infant! Still able to get out with the aid of the occasional afternoon baby sitter.

Introducing my 13 and 10 year old neice and nephew from Atlanta to sailing last weekend, and a whole family sail for father's day.

[Tony G]

Outstanding job!!! Nothing better than time on the water when you're a kid-young or old.

I left one of our sailing dinks at the Father-in-laws cabin one year in an effort to get the younger generation interested. Offered to take them out, showed them how easy it is, don't worry about breaking anything but your head, told them they could even putz around at their own whim ( in the protected bay ). Nothing. Only whinned and begged to ride the PWCs. :(

[Lucky Dawg]

Nice sail today. Shore breeze made Lake Michigan flat as a pancake with 12-15 knots or so. Ride along if you like - a one minute clip that looks like we are FLYING. http://picasaweb.google.com/kyle.amy.sadie/825Sail/photo?authkey=gRjuifCVvTk#s5238634443765523346

I had the logos I found on eBay repaired and rechromed. Sparkley!

Sadie continues to get more confident aboard. As she was headed forward today, I started to say... and she finished my thought - "I know Daddy, three points of contact!" She is quite a swimmer for 4 and we have jumped in the drink in our life vests and practiced MOB. At the dock, she has taken on the jobs of uncovering and covering the cowl vent and tiller with their canvas before and after sails. Good crew is hard to come by. This particular one generally sports a princess nightie - her usual sailing garb. :)

[SkipperJer]

I have a set of Commander badges that are heavily pitted that I would like to have redone. How successfully does the process fill in what appears to be a pretty low form of metallic life that has been abused? What kind of price should I expect?

They look great!

[Lucky Dawg]

Before and after below. I suppose if I had asked the guy to pay special attention to the pits, it might have turned out differently. I was more interested in piecing together the port logo. There is some pitting as you can see, but the chrome over them looks smoother than the close up makes it appear. It was $260 with the repair and chroming. Don't know if I got a fair deal, but it is difficult to find anyone who will chrome pot metal. Dynamic Custom Chrome http://www.dynamiccustomchrome.com/index2.html in the Detroit area.

[Bill]

Another option is to purchase a replacement. Bristol Bronze has duplicated the Ariel and Commander plates. Here is the info from the 2003 thread:

>>>>>>>
The part number for the Commander logo will be BB0304 and it will sell for the same price as the Ariel logo."

Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224
--------
Note:
Plates are $50 each + $6.50 S&H

PO Box 101
Tiverton, RI 02878
401-625-5224
www.bristolbronze.com
<<<<<<


For more discussion, search on "logo plate."

[Lucky Dawg]

Ouch! Or I could have done that... I seem to remember contacting Bristol before I bought the eBay plates and for some reason I didn't go that route. I sent Bristol a message this morning asking if that price and availability are still accurate. Will let y'all know ASAP.

[SkipperJer]

FYI
Current pricing on Bristol Bronze website is $85.00 each.
I guess I should hurry.

[SkipperJer]

click on their price sheet link and look under "coaming logo" on the downloaded file.

[Lucky Dawg]

Right, so $170 for both cast in bronze plus chroming. Not cheap to chrome anything nowadays, but as I preferred. Maybe mine wasn't such a bad deal.

__________________________________


<TABLE class=email-table cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=1 width=760 border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD style="WIDTH: 760px; WORD-WRAP: break-word">
Dear Kyle,
Thanks for the e-mail and for your interest in Bristol Bronze.
The BB0304 Pearson Commander Coaming Logos in Bronze are $85.00 each plus shipping and handling. We currently have them in stock.
If you would like to place an order you can do so by using the order form that is part of our web site or, if you wish you can phone me and I can take your order down.
Roger W.
Bristol Bronze
401-625-5224</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Lucky Dawg]

________________________

[Lucky Dawg]

Nice sail to winter quarters over the weekend. 20kts from the NNW made for speedy downwind sail with following rollers. Surfing provided several 9kt+ rides. Miles Davis' Cellar Door Sessions provided the soundtrack.

------------
a) So long Muskegon

b) Sun breaking through along the way

c) Headed up the Grand River to The Wharf marina

[mbd]

Sounds like a great sail to end the season and get you through Winter. We had a really nice Fall here in the NE too. I was hauled out last Friday. :(

[Lucky Dawg]

"Pulled over" by the Sheriff last weekend. Just checking for life jackets, etc. Sadie popped up from below and had hers on. He started asking her questions about her DOB and how to spell her name... and then handed her a "ticket" for being caught with her life jacket ON - redeemable at a local ice cream stand for a free cone. She thought is was the coolest thing ever and was great reinforcement for her keeping her jacket on.:) A nice touch by the sheriff's office, I thought.

[Lucky Dawg]

Glorious sail today. Steady 16kts, 2-3footers on Lake Michigan - blasting along at 6kts. It was a beautiful day. Sailing at its finest. Afterwards "Hey Sadie, thanks for sailing with me today - that was great!" "Oh, I love sailing Daddy!" (I am perfectly aware that we are time limited on that exchange)
Couple pix below - first two by Sadie a) my deck is always ship shape, and b) Captain at the helm. C) is Sadie in her favorite sailing spot.

[Lucky Dawg]

Glad we sailed today... Here's tomorrow:
Monday
West storm force winds to 50 knots veering northwest gales to 45 knots. Showers and a chance of thunderstorms until midday... then showers in the afternoon. Waves 12 to 16 feet. :eek:

[mbd]

Kyle - sounds like you might have to tuck a reef in! :D

[Lucky Dawg]

Re my post above, here are some pictures from the storm. Might be more than a reef tuck!

http://www.walma.com/windypier.htm (http://www.walma.com/windypier.htm)

[Lucky Dawg]

I don't have hard-wired tunes for Lucky Dawg. Amy got me this for my b-day... and it rocks… http://www.amazon.com/Hercules-i-XPS-120-Outdoor-Speakers/dp/B000X2B5U4/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254791115&sr=1-6 (http://www.amazon.com/Hercules-i-XPS-120-Outdoor-Speakers/dp/B000X2B5U4/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254791115&sr=1-6)

Splash-proof and apparently pretty drop proof. The perfect iPod portable sailing tune provider. Rubber surround keeps it nicely glued to the deck while heeling. The sound is pretty darn good for a little 6x12 boombox.

For original $179… still pretty good. But for $59?? You can’t go wrong.

p.s. Oop, apparently out of stock now at Amazon... $99 at http://www.nextag.com/Hercules-i-XPS120-Outdoor-611541043/prices-html

[Lucky Dawg]

Had a nice sail south to Grand Haven a couple weeks ago and we were able to borrow an empty slip up the Grand River. Hung on for another week and had a couple last minute sails.

a) Headed out the Grand River for our last sail of the season. Sadie brought her snow suit along - it was pretty chilly

b) the sun blasted through overcast skies the moment we hoisted the genny

c) on the hard for another long winter's nap. Ug.

[Lucky Dawg]

65* in mid-November! Out for a top-down ride with Sadie on Sunday - that's my in-law's '66. Required a stop by LD for a brief hello.

[Lucky Dawg]

UGA VII dies unexpectedly at age 4

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/11/19/georgia.university.mascot.dead/index.html

RIP Big Dawg

[ebb]

Why not bring the new UGA to the stadium as a puppy,
Fans would respond to that, right?
And there would be no doubt or confusion.

[Lucky Dawg]

Fan response, yes, but possibly a little English Bulldog responding with an anxiety disorder :eek: Getting used to 90,000 crazy Bulldog fans might be a bit much for young and hypersensitive dog-ears! It is freaking loud in there!

[Lucky Dawg]

Busy this spring - Tired of a non-planing sailing hull, I installed some new power. Note my new 65 megawatt coal-fired power plant - equipped, of course, with an electrostatic precipitator and a wet flue gas desulfurizer system for emission controls. The weekly coal deliveries are tedious, but the girl turns heads.

6587

[Lucky Dawg]

E A S Y boys... Ahhhh, ready for sailing. That badass forklift can handle 36000 lbs, but it still makes me nervous to watch.

[Lucky Dawg]

Sailed Lucky Dawg to Muskegon Friday - about a third of it in the rain. I was in a borrowed slip in Grand Haven waiting for a convenient time to move her north to Muskegon and they rented the slip "You need to be out by noon" - I think they believed me to be a squatter. Anyway, it turned out to be a really nice sail once the rain stopped. In all of my sailing years, that is actually the first time I have left port in the rain. Luckily the sail was a beam reach at hull speed all the way, so the rain from the main wasn't dripping on my head as it would have close hauled. I offered to take Sadie out of school for the day to accompany, but "uh, Daddy... it is raining..." (with a very teenager sounding "duh!" in her 6 year old voice.)

Got to try out my new automatic bilge pump system, hardwired GPS, new electrical panel, and upgraded prop with 8 vs 8 1/2 pitch. Also discovered that chromed winches don't work very well in a downpour, and that, though I don't fancy a bimini, some sort of canvas hatch cover could be helpful while underway in the rain. Upgrade pictures to follow.

p.s. looking at the main page, I see I have now highjacked 3 out of 4 sub-forums. Sorry!

[Lucky Dawg]

New panel. Added an auto / man bilge switch - my original (from PO) just plugged via duplex and a lighter plug into the 12v; a battery meter through a 3way SPDT switch that will accomodate a second battery at some point - stays in the center-off (non draining) position unless needed to check battery level; and a simple West panel. What you can't see is the 3/8" pilot light that illuminates on the reverse side of the bulkhead when the bilge activates. A Don Casey idea that made sense to me. Wire over the top of the box is my hardwired GPS cable that reaches the GPS bracket on the bulkhead. I am quite pleased with my first shippy electrical project.

picture 1 - the mess that was inside the box - complete with wire nuts... and some interestingly connected circuits....
picture 2 - lots of extra notes and ID tags so I could remember what was what - and of course my handy dandy owners manual at my side
picture 3 - finished product.

[Lucky Dawg]

We spotted and sailed around this lady yesterday. The 185' Europa from The Netherlands - headed for Chicago for Tall Ships 2010 taking place this week. We'd missed the fleet at our home port while vacationing in Chicago.

Really remarkable to see up close - and a bit intimidating to round her bow!

more pix of this beautiful ship at http://www.google.com/images?q=Europa+tall+ship&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=hzR1TLLbHM6hngfs9fmmBg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CDgQsAQwBA&biw=1259&bih=606

[Lucky Dawg]

...about not much weather. They were expecting things to be a little more critical, hence Weather Channel folks on the beach this morning at Lucky Dawg's home port of Muskegon, MI. Saw this on TWC while at the gym:

http://www.weather.com/outlook/videos/todays-top-forecast-4276#464

Sustained storm force winds at 50kt forecast and building to 10-15 footers until tomorrow evening. http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/LM/848.html

Even since this AM, the waves are getting more impressive - http://surfgrandhaven.com/640cam2.php (4 rotating views) (for perspective, the outer and inner lights are 36 and 56 feet off the pier - and the pier is about 8' off flat water.)

I find all this wind and water power pretty amazing.

[epiphany]

Talking about weather -

We had a storm about 3-4 weeks ago, when that tropical system was down by Cuba with a band of moisture streaming all the way up the East Coast. Worst I have *ever* seen it here, in ~7 years of living aboard. Started around 1AM, and in no time at all, we had honest 4-5' swells running through the marina.

My boat was in the slip next to the Walker Bay dinghy, below. The end of that dock *should* be attached to the dolphin behind it, about 8' feet away. Within 15-20 minutes of the storm starting, that had given way and so I had nothing to attach Katie to. If you look close, you can barely see a black hook on the dolphin at the point where the 2 lower pilings meet the taller. There is another black hook on the solo piling, mid-point of the power boat in the background. Those hooks were under the tops of the waves.

The wind was coming straight across the Bay thru that gap you can see in the background, sustained at over 50, gusting I believe to hurricane strength. The airport 8-10 miles inland registered a 64mph gust.

When I was on top of waves, I saw others that were nothing but a wall of whitewater completely filling that gap, and the keel of that old Cris Craft more than I ever care to again. At the bottom of the waves, that view was completely hidden from view by water. Just sitting in the cockpit, I frequently had to hold on with two hands, because the boat was bucking so bad, getting slammed when the dock lines would catch her up (but she never, not once, shipped water over the stern! Even with all that was happening, I was amazed...). It was about then that I realized being onboard would soon become seriously hazardous to my health, and that there was absolutely *nothing*, nothing at all, that I could do about the situation; it was, in a word, overwhelming.

I never ever thought I would say this, certainly not while berthed in a marina but - I abandoned my boat, clutching a small duffel bag of what I could grab fast that would help me earn the money to buy all-new stuff, including a boat. I thought she was gone. When I came back on deck, I found that the dock had literally broken into pieces while I was packing that duffel. Took me 3 attempts to get from my boat to the dock, then had to make it across the pieces pictured below, in the midst of all the above. Craziness. In the end, Katie made it out just fine; the storm laid down really fast in 10-15 minutes after I left her, before everything broke *all the way* loose, and boats were actually banging against and sinking each other...

7047

Here's the view from standing next to the stern of the Hunter in the above picture.

7046

I hope I never go thru that again, and that nobody else has to, either!

[mbd]

Ummmm... yikes!!! Kurt, glad to hear you and Katie Marie made it through OK. The crew dogs too, I hope.

[Lucky Dawg]

Clearing Lucky Dawg's deck for sanding and painting gives me the willies. I just keep reminding myself that it's been done before.

With all of the alligator cracking in my deck paint, it had to be done, but sheesh!

7407 7406 7405

[Rico]

Ahh LD - good to see you back!

If you have any gel-coat cracks make sure you go in deep after them... or they'll be back before you know it!

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Rico,
Thanks for mentioning that. I had been looking at C227's tackling of the cracks. (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1803-Commander-227&p=18827#post18827) Looks like he did it before sanding. Still figuring out to what depth I need to sand. I need to take off the non-skid, but do I need to sand to the point of all gelcoat being removed or just to a solid, crack free surface? I will be pulling out my Don Casey bibles and doing some searching here, but if you care to weigh in on the subject before I get there, I'm open to any feedback!

p.s. I sent you a PM about your aluminum mast base, but it is sometimes hard to see that indicator of a waiting message - so you may not have noticed. I did get one manufactured for about $350.

[carl291]

Kyle, my understanding is you want to open up the cracks with say an old can opener dragged through the crack to clean out the crud and make the edges abraded to hold the filler. If you try to sand down the crack you'll have a deck as wavy as the lake. I think I got this from Mike Goodwin's repair tips on this site. Check with the site masters though. Carl

[Commander227]

Kyle,
No sailing for you for awhile. I'm in the same boat as you though. The Princess is currently in many pieces.
Sorry for the slow reply, I have not been on the site for awhile.
I think a gallon of each is about right. I think I did have to dip into a second gallon of the white Awlgrip (I think less than a quart) to finish the non-skid.
(I just burned up some more of the second gallon with my mast rebuild project. I'll try to get some of that up soon)
The crazing you just need to buzz down and fill, its the stress cracks you need to route out. A Dremel would work fine to route out the cracks, I used a 1/8" pointed carbide bit in a 90 degree air grinder. You need to get all the way trough the gel coat. I can't remember right now but I think I filled with Duraglass.
I'll get you the info on the Vynalester paste Bob used on C299. He put it on thick and worked it into the crazed deck with a thick nap roller, rolling from all directions. It worked really well and seems to be holding up nicely. I don't see anything telegraphing through.
Mike
C227

[Commander227]

P.S. ... Don't stress too much, there is no magic to any of this. Just don't cut corners in the prep work and it will turn out great!!

[Lucky Dawg]

Mike and Carl - thanks for the feedback. I am presently drilling out and filling hardware holes with epoxy and addressing a couple small wet spots where stanchions were (and will never be again...) The deck is in remarkably good shape, it seems. Sanding off non skid is pretty time consuming. That stuff is strong!

Mike, I would be interested to hear about the Vynalester paste from C299 - whenever you're free. I know this is a busy time of year at a marina.

Had a couple detail questions for the refinishing people at Torresen's, so we went up and looked at our new slip for the season - I do presume I will make use of it - I am bow to bow with this boat. Another Commander knockoff - the Quickstep24. Details here (http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=356) and some yachtworld pix here (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatMergedDetails.jsp?boat_id=2254752&checked_boats=2254752&ybw=&units=Feet&currency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1530&url=&imc=pg-fs)

7437

7438

[Lucky Dawg]

Boy did I speak too soon. Something didn't sound right and I drilled an exploratory hole..... HOLY$%^# Soggy deck down the stbd side and patchy sogginess on port. My humidity meter said 15-18% humidity on the hardwood setting. That seemed bone dry compared to ambient humidity. Apparently 15% means soggy. I haven't even started exploratory drilling on the foredeck. (wet inside the marker) I presume I will be sawing away the deck and replacing the core now... Ug. That's really my only avenue, right? :(

7451

7452

7453

[mbd]

Is the core "brown mush" that you're removing? Is the deck skin delaminated? Does it give when you walk on it?

If 'no' to all of the above, you may be able to get away with drying things out, resealing the holes, and then sealing up all the avenues of water ingress before you paint.

On the other hand, since you're repainting the decks already and have everything removed, this may be a good time to do a recore and have that job behind you. It sounds like you may only have to do a couple of spots anyway, not the whole thing.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Mike,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, definitely juicy brown mush. Re the decks, that's the strange thing. The decks don't seem to give / creak / make a sound and they have a sharp response to them when sounding with the butt of a screwdriver - not to say I am an expert in sounding the decks. Under the stanchions is definitely a "thud" vs a sharper tone elsewhere.
KW

[mbd]

I had the best luck doing just what you're doing, that is, drilling out from the bad spots until you get to good clean core material.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1062-Ariel-414&p=13820#post13820

Sounding the decks for me was always sketchy, unless I was in a big bad spot, then there was no doubt it was a "thud".

With the drill method, you can isolate your repairs and just fix the sections that need it. It's a real pain to try and pull deck skins off that are NOT delaminated! No need to go overboard and cause yourself more work than is necessary.

[Commander 147]

Well Kyle....

Your certainly not alone with the soggy core. I'm starting to wrap up the interior work (at least in the forward end of the interior) and will be starting my lower deck recore soon also. I can tell you that for the part of the cabin roof that I recored it was far easier work than a lot of the interior work I have done so far. So I'm hoping the rest of the deck recore goes the same.

Please post lots of progress pics so I can get some hints from your job and maybe save myself some headaches.

Good luck with the project.

[Lucky Dawg]

so I can get some hints from your job and maybe save myself some headaches.

Ha! That's funny Jerry. I literally don't know squat about this. I may be a master though when I'm done.

And Mike thanks for the advice and photos in your thread. I'm very visual so "a picture is worth a thousand words" is doubly true with my brain.

[Commander227]

Kyle,
$.02. ... The princess also tapped out fine and when I went to drill out the mounting holes for the combings I had a few that spit out some wet core. The outer skin on those side decks is so thick that even in the worst areas it does not flex under foot. I just let it go on The Princess (being certain that everything was sealed up so it would not worsen) concluding that with the thick skins the core is not needed in that area anyway. on many boats the area between the combing and rubrail is not cored.
I think you could approach it this way:
1. Chuck up an allen wrench with a 90 degree bend in it.
2. Spin that sucker in each of your holes to clear out the mush.
3. vacuum out debris and blow out with compressed air.
4. Douse the area with Isopropyl alcohol to help remove moisture.
5. repeat step #3
6. repeat step #4
7. repeat step #3
8. inject epoxy thickened with something light weight like micro balloons with west system tubes and the $50. Royobi electric caulk gun. (or a regular caulk gun, I heard chicks dig guys with strong hands)

...or just cut the skins off and recore if it makes you feel better. not as bad a job as you might think.

The paste we used on #299's decks was Dura Tech Vinyl ester fairing primer.
Process:
1. Route out all the stress cracks with a 1/8" carbide in a Dremel or air grinder.
2. Knock down the decks with something around 80 grit.
3. roll on the paste working it into all crevices.
4. repeat step #2 and 3 as necessary.
Final knock down should be done with a longboard sander where ever possible.

Mike
C227

[Lucky Dawg]

Thank for your thoughts and time replying Mike.

I've said it before - I REALLY appreciate this forum. Friends have asked me "How the hell do you know how to do this?" (I decidedly don't...yet) and I just credit y'all as my brain trust: "I have this terrific yacht-specific forum that can answer any question imaginable in a matter of hours." The info is available, I suspect, in other places and I do sample those sources, but I trust you as a group and the friendly, helpful, never-condescending tone of this forum is rarely achieved in other discussion lists. Really a remarkable resource and I can't thank you enough.

So, I feel more comfortable with the swiss cheese approach - though it looks like boat abuse. I also like the idea of using alcohol better than acetone. Cheaper for sure and probably much more earth-friendly. The mush removal worked well today. Not speedy, but seems to be pulling it out easily. For the most part, blowing air through an adjacent hole while balsa-mining worked better than vacuuming. I'm not obsessing about getting everything out - I'm going on the assumption that if I get it bone dry, what is left will just mix with the epoxy and act as filler. This approach maintains the elevation of the deck line - which I feel good about. Haven't checked it, but if there is any arch at all to that surface (or several others I'll tackle) I don't have to bother with recreating it. Estimating epoxy will be a crapshoot, but... learning as I go. Supposed to be warm and dry for the next three days (this is all outdoor work) so I'm hoping to be flexing my forearm muscles with a caulk gun on Tuesday. Thankfully the port side is nothing compared to this.

p.s. My new aluminum mast step is complete and I'll pick it up this week. Will share pix.

7458

[Lucky Dawg]

Can someone ID this primary winch for me? It isn't the South Coast winch in the background (which, helpfully, is inscribed as such on the top.) It is about twice the size, but hasn't a marking of any sort on its exterior. I want to download a service manual for it before cracking the top off to rebuild it. Another pic in post 55 (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot&p=16072#post16072)... and 81 (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot&p=16551#post16551).

And... a view from the garage. All of the rot has been vacuumed away with an initial batch of epoxy injected. Easier than I thought and required less epoxy than I presumed. Stripping the coaming boards and other brightwork with Bix and curious what the final result will be. Ordered my vinyl-ester primer yesterday. Rolling along.....

7477

7476

[Ariel 109]

I would guess it's a Merriman Brothers or South Coast Company. You might find a mark when you open it up. Freshly lubricated winches will enhance your sailing experience. Great old hardware, perfect for our boat size.

The jib sheet winches on my Ariel are unmarked.

[Lucky Dawg]

A little progress. Crummy weather has made for a slow go of it on the deck work. I found and drilled out all my wet core. Mostly on stbd, under every stanchion, and at the bow pulpit attachment points. I have the first pass of thickened epoxy in my swiss cheese holes. Would have been easier / a one-step process had I known about release fabric - as each hole has a little concave shape to the surface. (I know, I know... release fabric...) Learning as I go! Anyway, that is slated for this week as the rain will finally go away for a couple days. (The only solace in not being in the water is that sailing-weather days have been few and far between.)

I patched my coaming boards, which had some damage upon removal, with epoxy thickened with the mahogany sawdust from sanding. The dark brown will be hidden, of course, against the cockpit sides. They'd also been patched by a PO here and there with MarineTex and the white looked bad, so I dremeled that out and filled with the same epoxy mixture. It took a lot of Bix slathered on for a lot of time, and then standing on those boards with 40 grit at times to get out the old yellow out. Finally down to nice pink mahogany. Nice weather will also let me initiate my Epifanes. What I have removed won't match the Cetol that is on the cabin door, but I'll address that over the winter. Taking apart the companionway would have added another step that would delay sailing. My family is already tapping their collective feet waiting to splash.

I may break down and rent a nearby airplane hanger to get this done inside - I fear unpredictable showers might treat my vinyl-ester fairing compound, not to mention primer and topcoat poorly

p.s. the color in pics 3 and 4 really is nice and pink like the pieces on the driveway, but doesn't look so in these!

7524 7522 7523 7521 7520

[Lucky Dawg]

Also got my aluminum mast base back from my C&C man. He said most of the expense was in set up, so if anyone is interested in one, let me know. I used Rico's plans to fabricate it.

A thought - is the underside cavity below the screw holes just open like that for filling with water impeding bedding compound?

752675257527

[Lucky Dawg]

Here's one tip - west system release fabric 3.75ft2 for 9 bucks. Nylon drapery backing - slightly firmer feel, but equal performance - 18ft2 for 8 bucks. The latter actually cuts more easily and casts off fewer whispy strings on the edges too.

[carl291]

Kyle , I think you're making great progress on this. The hardest part is over, which is taking the saw and making that first whack on the boat! As you near the end you will be amazed at what you've accomplished. Keep up the great work.You may miss most of the short sailing season but you will have learned a great deal about Lucky Dawg! Carry on!!!

[Tony G]

Here's one tip - west system release fabric 3.75ft2 for 9 bucks. Nylon drapery backing - slightly firmer feel, but equal performance - 18ft2 for 8 bucks. The latter actually cuts more easily and casts off fewer whispy strings on the edges too.
Good tip, Kyle. I stumbled across tafeta at a fabric store while I was buying dacron fiber to use as an absorbant placed between the 'release fabric' and the vacuum bag. It seemed to work great and the neon chartruese really made the shop look....swanky.

[Rico]

Beautiful Base Kyle!!
:)

and great work on the dawg too!

BTW; That cavity on the mast base is necessary for the plate that is welded to the conduit through which the cables are routed from inside the cabin into the mast... This SS assembly is essentilly a 1/16" plate that fits tightly into that cavity and has a about 12" of tube going through the middle. The tube (as installed) extends 6"-8" up into the mast, and about 4" below into the compression post.
The Mast base screws go through holes in the plate fixing it (and the tube/conduit) in place...

I suppose this assembly helps keeps any water in the mast (condensation / rain water) from coming inside. - I have a small water drain-hole in the mast at 2-3 inches above the deck.

So far I've only seen this plate on the Mephisto Cat (C-155) and in no other boats...

[Lucky Dawg]

My smurf-blue decks (Duratec vinyl ester fairing primer) are sanded down and ready for white Duratec Vinyl Ester primer. I'm thinking that will be Tuesday. I'll sift non-skid into the tacky primer and need to sand the smooth deck for two coats. I'm rolling on these primers, so that makes for some significant sanding. By the way, the people at ExpressComposites.com (Duratec distributor) are SUPER helpful and friendly. Since I am really clueless about what I'm doing (I should say clueless about what I'll be doing NEXT - I now know how to do... what I did...) Anyway, they have humored my questions very patiently. Could be ready for Awlgrip this weekend. Inside a pretty clean warehouse at Torresen's now, I have been working most nights 9 to midnight-ish. It is painful to be doing this work while the sailing season ticks away. I'll post some pictures when I find my doggone camera - it is hiding somewhere very tricky...

If you're interested, I've posted my progress in a Picasa album - https://picasaweb.google.com/100988960116603858412/Deckjob# Those are up to moving inside last week.

Thankfully we have access to Amy's folks' 26' Tiara. Its fat 7.4L V8 purrs along nicely - and sucks down more fuel on a sunset cruise than Lucky Dawg does in a season. So, though stinkboating around, we're able to get out and enjoy the water. Some lazy 1-footers on Lake Michigan last night made for a very nice ride.

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[Lucky Dawg]

F I N A L L Y finished my pre-paint sanding last night at 11:50PM. When I thought I was done last week, I used powdered graphite via a sponge applicator to check my work... UG! Not even close. It very effectively showed all the pin holes. BACK around the whole boat with 80, 110, and 220. All holes gone now. Baby-arse smooth.

I swear I have been sanding for 3 months. I am SO right handed that after all of that, I may now resemble a fiddler crab...

Paint (Interlux Perfection) arrives Thursday. Was going to Awlgrip her, but Torresen's painter urged me towards Perfection - more forgiving, repairable, and a little cheaper.

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[Lucky Dawg]

This stuff is impressive<wbr>. You can watch it self-level as you apply it. Initial slight orange-pee<wbr>l appearance from the foam roller goes glass smooth before your eyes - no tipping necessary. First coat not at all, and I was a little concerned - drips I never saw coming, tiny pimples, weird / uneven coverage. EEEK! Grabbed the painter at my marina today to inspect and he said "Don't worry, that is how the first coat goes on - sand it with 320 and the second coat will amaze you" He was right.

Aiming for an 8/29 sail...

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p.s. updated project album is at https://picasaweb.google.com/100988960116603858412/Deckjob# Kindly disregard descriptions for non-sailors / non-AC's...

[ebb]

Kyle,
Never would have seen your wonderful slide show without your blue line.
Wish there was a way that the whole series, and your comments, could be brought over to this address so that it could be WIKIed in to the Commander/Ariel archives.

I have put Interlux into the same basket as West Marine and West Syetems (Gougeon Bros) BUT
your comments have convinced me to try it myself for the shiney exterior areas on litlgull. Like the self-leveling right-befor-your-eyes and the easy repair.

[EDIT
meant to add, as a 'teaser' for others to view, that I was impressed with your graphite pinhole finder method:eek: Shades of CSI
- and your party balloon method along with dacron curtain liner of fairing up a crooked hole
- and that same upholstery liner used as far less expensive "peel ply" release fabric on deck. Great tips!]
Great to meet your crew and Max, who looks like a real character!:D

Lucky Dawg is definitely a lucky dawg!
BEAUTIFUL JOB ! ! !

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Ebb,
Thanks a ton. Hard but gratifying work. I could be putting ALL this stuff (from the picasa link) on my Lucky Dawg page as it goes on, but I was a little concerned about dominating the board for 3 months! Maybe when it is done with, I can make a new thread and put it all on there. Hopefully there is something to be learned from someone not knowing diddly and diving in nonetheless.
Don't know how Perfection will wear, but with NONE of this process being easy so far, painting with Perfection has been nearly blissful.
Max is a good boy - rescue dog and he has been a great addition over this past summer. Not sure how good a sailor he'll be!

[ebb]

If MAX cain't be a sailor
maybe he can be a swab....
Whot's in a name?:D

[Lucky Dawg]

re "CSI" - 3M Dry Guide Coat (http://3mcollision.com/3m-dry-guide-coat-applicator-kit-05861.html) (<- link) is the product/applicator.

Spray Guide Coat (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=Guide+Coat&gs_upl=4583l5439l0l6491l10l5l0l0l0l3l406l1716l0.1. 0.3.1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1280&bih=641&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=3811829828967222690&sa=X&ei=on5MToGxOojh0QGj_eiqBw&ved=0CGMQ8wIwAA) (<- link) or just a lacquer spray paint apparently works too, but the way the graphite rubs into the surface seemed to be it's superior utility. And I didn't have to worry about overspray to unintended surfaces. It was a godsend for surface prep.

And thanks, I thought the balloon idea was a brief (very brief) moment of genius. It came to me at about 4AM the night before I put it into service. "Eureka!

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[Lucky Dawg]

I think I mentioned intending to buff out this paint job to address minor imperfections. If I said so, I spoke out of turn. Interlux sternly warns against buffing Perfection because as the finish cures, the resin rises to the surface and is a thin protective film that also acts as the glossy finish. In short, if you buff it, you take off the shine and diminish / destroy the protective finish that the resin provides.

Given that, I will be inspecting what I want to sand and recoat and what I can live with - there will be a little of both. Port side of the cabin, aft of the port portlight is the only problem area that I intended to fix with buffing.

Non-skid looks great. Picasa link in the posts above is updated through non-skid application. "Paint, sprinkle, paint, sprinkle, thin paint" is the application process. I can detail further beyond that hyper-brief direction if anyone cares to hear more. Came out very even.

Came up a quart short this weekend - and not another quart to be had within 100 miles. 5 quarts was plenty, but a couple coats I could have planned better for what to do with leftovers or choosing when to mix a partial batch. So I may have thrown away nearly a quart with various leftover quantities. Intended to be finished painting on Friday and haul her home to reinstall hardware, etc. in the driveway. So running out was frustrating. I had enough to finish the cabin top, so I could get started with reinstalling hardware there, if not all over the boat.

With my paint miscalculation, it will be a mad dash this week to get her launched by Saturday for a Monday sail. Still the plan...

[SkipperJer]

I got the same story from Interlux concerning their basic Brightside: buffing diminishes gloss and durability. When I talked to the person on the toll-free tech line I asked if they got that question often. He replied that they did. I noted that fact indicated that it might be a good idea to warn users not to buff in the product directions on the can or the product info sheet on the website. He really didn't have a response for that. Duh.

Given that experience and the fact that I was about to apply Cetol I decided to call the number for Sikkens Cetol. Lots of other boaters I know advised me that, "putting Gloss on Cetol is a waste of time and makes work." Cetol guy on the phone found this a frustrating "rumor". He reported that quite a bit of the UV protection is in the gloss. The gloss also slows evaporation of the base color coat. They consider this a two part system that is not complete without application of the gloss. What makes it more durable than varnish from their point of view is that one part seals the wood and provides color, the other slows evaporation and reinforces sun protection. By separating the tasks they feel they get better overall performance than varnish at least in terms of durability. I replied that you'd never know that from reading the directions on the can(s). This guy was at least aware enough of good customer relations and communications to admit that this was a problem.

[ebb]

That's a google
Boatdesignforums has an exchange on that.

I can find nothing in the yachtpaints.com data sheet warning against buffing.
However a full cure will take two weeks. More the better.
The guys on the boatdesign form mention that.

Another points out that the gloss micron layer on top which provides most of the coating's promised protection will be compromised if buffed, that is if you take the shine away with the buffing - as you say.

Another guy says don't use anything under 2500 grit ! ! !

It's understandable you want to protect the gloss.
So why can't you wax-n-buff when it's 99% and you have to have 100? Not removing anything except the last polish and wax.

I think that if you want to get a mirror gloss like fancy concours cars get you have to use an acrylic urethane (yachtpaint's AwlCraft) used for autos, made to be sanded and sanded, clear coated & buffed. (Awlgrip's Awlcraft data sheet specs that the system has a clear coat and the coating is buffable.)

Color coatings have to be solid color. But maybe the top reclining molecules in the Perfection color gloss could arguably be transparent.
A perfectionist might try to sand and recoat cured polyester layers if each had a flattening agent mixed in. Sand to perfection then lay on a last coat of color gloss.
I see NO clear gloss in the Perfection data sheet.
To achieve concours imco you have to clear coat!
BUT neither of these two (single stage) linear polyester urethane coatings can be sanded and buffed in the classic sense.
Can't say I understand a damn thing anymore the way paint chemistry seems to blend everything together. But maybe the slightly cheaper acrylic urethane is more crystalin in structure and therfor can be BUFFED?
Kyle, the assumption here is that Perfection is a polyester urethane. Do we know this as a fact?
If it is an acrylic urethane then perhaps it actually can be sanded and buffed like Awlcraft 2000.
After the stuff cures for two months.:D
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
A 3rd FRIENDLY ALTERNATIVE:
System Three makes a waterborne WR Linear Polyester Urethane Topcoat.
This two stage system (there is a clear coat) presents no serious safety issues.

According to the Description & Application Guide it looks fairly easy to build up coats
(if you must) by putting coats on without a particular additive, and sanding,
then finishing up with a coat with a crosslinker in it. That sort of stuff.

Wouldn't know about comparing the gloss with the LPUs mentioned above,
but they all seem to promise equal performance.

Thinning WR-LPU is with water and the coating can be SANDED & BUFFED
if you put on four coats of satin color, two of clear for gloss*, then sand and buff.
Quote:
"If a higher level of gloss is desired the cured coat may be sanded and buffed. Wet sand with 600grit sandpaper proceeding in stages through 1500grit. Buff with a compound equivalent to 2500grit and finish with a product similar to 3M's Finesse-It."

.....And this is explicitly printed in the SystemThree application quide.
Not inconveniently left for forums to discuss or making a disappointing phone call.
(S.3 is also available for help throughout the workweek.
The CAVEAT. WR-LPU is notoriously difficult to use anywhere south of the 48th parallel. You will require 65/70 degress and 85%humidity.
Bateau2 - Builder Forums guys complain System 3 should have more explicit guidelines on ap temp and humidity. Some have to flood their shops !!! with water to raise humidity levels. Everyone will agree that WR-LPU is a cold weather paint.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
* On my planet we can't put a coat of clear or color over another without sanding - wet sanding usually. That means more total coats AND more time.
It isn't concours that drives us, it's just getting rid of the bugs, zits and dust specks to make it smooth enough for the next stage.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
"The end stages of Boat Building Disease can make a strong man cry."
Gary Frankel- Cockpit Confessions, Pacific Yacht Magazine (newboatbuilders.com)

[Lucky Dawg]

No, as Jerry points out, the application instructions say nothing about not buffing, but if you read the "finishes" forum in the interlux/yachtpaint site, the tech rep who moderates the forum says over and over what I posted above. "Buff at your peril!"

[ebb]

These coatings are all urethanes.
Once the VOCs have evaporated - there is plenty of solvent that has to dissipate (upwards of 70%) - perhaps a polyester urethane coating becomes virtually inert at that point and with a little tooth applied to the surface, maybe an acrylic urethane clear coat could be rolled or sprayed on - and that buffed?
Solvents are the problem, as it may be difficult for them to disapate quickly through a tight, dense, hard skin.

Urethanes are notorious for not sticking. Usually applied to a fresh epoxy primer, but not always. But the reasons for that may be more in careful prep than chemical tech.
(For example:
Non-clogging sandpaper containing STEARATES will leave a residue and screw up any surface epoxy and polyurethanes are applied to.
There are often warnings about wax in tack-cloths used to clean dust off surfaces about to be painted.
Solvents used to wipe clean a surface are often culprits in a coating's failure.
Silicone caulk contamination of gel coat.
Between the two packaged cans of an INTERLUX epoxy filler I bought once was a folded piece of paper that in the smallest print possible warned that the cured material had to be washed of BLUSH befor sanding!!!
No mention of this step on either can! If I had used the product (I took it back to Svendsen's) without washing off the water soluable oil it would have contaminated the surface, gotten into every minute scratch, when I sanded.)

Once one system's surface is neutral, arguably any paint, any enamel, any coating could then be used over it.
Maybe - to dull the surface - prep could be warm water, BonAmi, and a green nylon pad?
Imco it would be possible to use another system's CLEAR COAT, perhaps even the waterborne LPU, to get your 'higher level of gloss.'

They're all obscenely expensive coatings
and you know how big money likes to stick together!;)

[Lucky Dawg]

My oh my oh my.

This was one beast of a job. Please remind me never to do it again. I never tracked the hours - I would just quantify them as a mind-numbingly large number.
Proud of the outcome, for sure. Feels a bit like the "lost summer" of 2011.

Mast stepping in the AM.

Quick notes: A couple items didn't make the must-do list such that we could get at least one sail in before Sadie starts school on Tuesday.
Such as:
1) skipped the rub rail. I ordered and have in my possession a nice Eagle Moulding vinyl backer for my stainless rub rail. With the time clock ticking, my choices were delay sailing to do the whole job right, just install the stainless and repatch reinstall both over the winter, or skip both now and make it a winter project. #3 wins. Will just have to be careful to keep her safe from damage.
2) the handrails will go back on top of the cabin. An easy job at the dock if/when I have time this fall. Trimming the new bungs to fit and therefore sealing the fore and aft holes on the railings would have, again, taken another step.... time...
3) I screwed up the traveller placement. Will detail later. I have a good idea for an easy and tasty fix though. Stay tuned.
4) the aft legs of the pulpit are misplaced and I have to figure out how to fix that screw up.
(For the most part, #3 and #4 are the only significant errors I've made.)
5) skipped reapplying VC17 - a two month season can do without, but I do miss that brand new copper bottom appearance.

I did a good job (B+, I'd say) bagging and protecting my reusable screws and bolts, etc. Some things just mysteriously disappeared. Lots of trips to the hardware store to buy stainless piecemeal. The cashier knows my name now....

Several weeks ago, Sadie says to me "Hey Dad - um, next Spring, how 'bout we have Lucky Dawg all ready to sail so we can sail in the summer!" Thanks for that little pointer! Duly noted.

Pictures below

[Lucky Dawg]

_____________________
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[Lucky Dawg]

_________________

[Lucky Dawg]

p.s. I've tried to estimate what this crazy job https://picasaweb.google.com/100988960116603858412/Deckjob# would have cost me to hire out. I've been saying an easy 10 grand.

[mbd]

Kyle - well done and thanks for sharing! I'm sure each sail this season will be all the sweeter with all that work behind you.

Sometimes it seems like we have to earn the privilege to sail these boats...

[ebb]

Kyle,
Here's to 'sailing the summers' ahead!
Keep posting, PLEASE!
Rig up, rail down, and all around the pond.
Thanks for sharing.:cool:

[Lucky Dawg]

Sometimes it seems like we have to earn the privilege to sail these boats...

Thanks guys. Funny you should say that, Mike - have always given the nod to the POs for Lucky Dawg's beautifully preserved state, but I really do feel a (hard earned) sense of personal pride in the her present status. Really excited to sail on Sunday morning.

[Lucky Dawg]

My only real screw up. I obviously placed this traveler track in the wrong place. In my frenzy to get launched on Friday, I just wasn't thinking about the cam cleats that sit in front here. I'll use 1/2" or 3/8" mahogany that I will trim to 4'x4"(ish) to lay flat here - then I'll put the traveller and cleats atop it. I figure of all places to screw up, this is the most easily fixable.

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[Lucky Dawg]

AHHHHHHH!!!! A beautiful sail yesterday. Too windy for Amy (she tops out at about 8kts), but I had great crew nonetheless. Steady 16kts for a nice ride.

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[Tony G]

She looks great, Kyle! Lucky Dawg has one of, if not the, most beautiful cockpits I have ever seen. Not cluttered and apropriately adorned. As a matter of fact I would not think of 'the traveller incident of 2011' as a screw up. That additional strip of wood will serve two purposes. One as a mount for hardware but also as a fine dressing to the aft end of her cockpit.

No doubt they are the luckiest kids on the Lake. You're making significant memories together. Hats off to you, sir.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Tony. Thanks. The ol' Commander cockpit is what drew me to the boat in the first place. Lucky Dawg's setup is really nice. There's the 45+ year old, meticulously constructed teak grate, and the clean white cushions the PO had made... but the 1/4 x 2" strips of mahogany that dress up the seats, I think, are the pièce de résistance. They're just screwed into the fore and aft 3rd's of the bench. For the center section, they're bolted through with short bolts that have to be ground down along with the nuts to a small degree to pass smoothly over the lip of the locker. Just a little detail, but they really pop.

Re my screw up, I agree. The traveller bling came to me fairly quickly as I realized my error - "Oh crap!!... Well, just add a strip of mahogany there and we're all good." Wouldn't have been a solution anywhere else on the boat, but an easy fix there. Someone here, can't remember who, put a similar accent there. It was bowed from the underside, so flat on top. I just plan to slightly bend the board to follow the line from one side to the other. It's about a 3/4" (?) arc over that 4' section.

Anyone know who sells honduran mahogany piecemeal? I still want to make the chain locker cover (below) I apologize that I can't remember whose handiwork that is, but I have it saved on my computer because it rocks. With that and a couple other projects, I could probably put a half a sheet of 1/2" to good use, but don't know what I would do with the other half... Maybe I should buy a full sheet of 1/4" and laminate...

And, yes Tony, I am blessed with two kids who love to sail. Totally aware that this could be time limited. Yesterday, just checking the enjoyment-barometer with Sadie and her friend - 'Y'all still good? How much longer do you want to sail?" Sadie - "A little longer - maybe two hours or so, OK?"

7787

p.s. I played around in Photoshop with the Commander logo/ensignia here rather than this design, but I couldn't produce anything that I liked better than this little anchor. Not sure if the raised panel is constructed like the outboard cover to lift on and off similarly to facilitate access? If you recall whose boat this comes from, please advise.

[Commander227]

Yippie!!!
Back in the water!
Let's hope the fall sailing is as fantastic as last year so you can cram a summers worth of sailing in.
The boat looks fantastic.
Congratulations on muscling through a really big job with such great results.
Mike

[Commander 147]

Kyle

Lucky Dawg really is a lucky Dawg to have an owner like you. She really is looking great. We are all looking forward to some sailing shots of you enjoying the fruits of your labor.

Kyle one of the things I really like about your commander is the wood grate in the cockpit floor. I think Destiny would benefit from one like it. Would you mind taking some close up pictures of it so I can see how it was constructed especially at the forward end (I looked through all your pictures and have a good idea about how it was done but did not see any of the forward end) where the cockpit dranes are under it?

[Commander227]

Gee Jerry... if your gearing up... why make just one?
(hint, hint)

[Commander 147]

Mike

I'm not gearing up right now I have too many "need to" things to do to get Destiny back in the water before I start doing the "want to" things but when I do I might be convinced to do a small production run. I'll let you know when I do gear up.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Jerry, Thanks. Definitely enjoying the "fruits." And no problemo for some pix of the grate. I picked up my trailer today to deliver to the welder. It is a little wobbly and I want to reinforce the bow supports. ...Anyway, while up there, I took a bunch of pictures. They're posted here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2245-Teak-grate-for-Ariel&p=23676#post23676

Had planned to meet up with my stinkboater friends yesterday (including my family) - they were to speed several boats up from Grand Haven to Muskegon Lake (13 miles or so up Lake Michigan) for a lakeside lunch at a fun restaurant called Docker's. Very unexpectedly, an ominous fog bank rolled in. Thick as pea soup and not remotely safe to navigate - so I was on my own. It never ate up Muskegon Lake where the sun was blazing, but you can see its creepy fingers peeking over the dunes that separate Muskegon Lake from Lake Michigan.

6 or 8 kts, so I flew my big light reacher. 80 degrees and beautiful sunshine. Supposed to be 30 degrees cooler next weekend.

Couple notes: I don't miss the lifelines or pushpit one bit. My drainage hole expansion in the Laz did not one thing to facilitate drainage - except that it looks a little cleaner. Same water volume, but it probably just enters and exits more freely. (Edit - this fix for this is post 17 in the "Balance advice and input" thread (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2034-Balance-advice-and-input&p=23816#post23816))

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[Commander 147]

Now see that's what I'm talking about!!!! Looks like it was a great day to be on the water.

That fog is no fun to sail in. And when it pops up in the middle of the day it is even more surprising. A couple of years ago I Took my niece for a sail out to Anclote key from Tarpon Springs. We got out to the island and beached the boat so my wife and my niece could walk up to the lighthouse and back. In the time it took them to do that we had very heavy fog roll in and we had to sail back in the stuff. I sure was glad I had a GPS that day.

I appreciate you posting the pics, I look forward to them.

[Lucky Dawg]

pix are posted in the link per above. I've sailed from somewhere near Anclote Village Marina to Anclote Key a number of times. (I've mentioned before that my mom used to live in Palm Harbor) Can't find the exact place on GoogleEarth, but it is a little Mom and Pop marina in that vicinity. My stepfather is a marine biologist and tromping around in the mud within the key (just south of the white beaches in center of this image) with someone who knows what's-what is edifying. One trip, headed out, we came upon literally hundreds of dolphins. It was some kind of sit-in, I think. You don't get that in the Great Lakes. No sharks, either, but... Some wildlife and some destination keys would be a fun addition.

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[Commander 147]

I will download the full size version when I get a couple of minutes to spare.

Can you tell me how thick the slats and the pieces arounf the perimeter are? Sorry to be such a bother but I really like that grate and would like to duplicate it.

The Google Earth picture you showed was the north end of Anclote key. The second picture shows the South end where we beached the boat and where the lighthouse is. The lighthouse is located at the circle and the arrow shows where we beached the boat that day.

The first picture is the lighthouse there on the key.

[Lucky Dawg]

Max went for his first sail today. He was a natural. Loves to ride in the car and this was just an upgrade from that. Found a spot on port and stayed there for the afternoon. Seemed very content. Only trotted into the cabin when I was dropping the sails in a fair amount of wind at the end of the day. Too much clattering for his liking. Should have named him "Scuppers."

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[Tony G]

Those are another set of great photos, Kyle. Max looks like a young Bouvier Des Flanders...truely a Lucky Dawg.

[mbd]

Hey, my kids loved Scuppers! Max is the spitting image! Great shots!

[Lucky Dawg]

"Born at sea in the tooth of a gale, the sailor was a dog. Scuppers was his name" Still have my copy from 1970 or so... (and Tony - Max is a Wheaton Terrier, actually) I got a new copy for my kids and the new edition is mysteriously missing 4 pages of the story. Doesn't really make sense without the deleted pages. Little Golden Books (http://www.amazon.com/Sailor-Dog-Little-Golden-Book/dp/0307001431)must be doing some cost-cutting.

By the way... Man, did I do a crappy job reinstalling my portlights. They leak like a sieve.

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[Commander 147]

Kyle

I love the photo with your son and Max. Those two look like they will be long time friends. :-) Every boy should have a dog.

[Lucky Dawg]

Sustained 30-50kt blow from the north hit Torresen's last week from its most unprotected side. We moved Lucky Dawg into the protected basin, but nontheless, the bucking motion snapped the port stern chock. That was the only damage.

Anyone have a spare??

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[mbd]

Yikes! Glad that's all that happened! I'll check for mine when I get home - I may have already sent them out but I can't remember...

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks for looking Mike. Yeah - I thought it would have cracked the fiberglass sooner than the aluminum (?) chock.

[mbd]

Hey Kyle - no go. I'm afraid I did indeed send those out a couple of years ago. Sorry for the empty offer... :(

PS. re: Post 184 is my chain locker. Don't know how I missed your post. The anchor square fits over the top of the mini bulk head. On its back, it's got a wooden cleat on the bottom and a little plastic snappy thing that holds it on top when you push it in. I'd be glad to take some pics for ya if you like.

[Lucky Dawg]

No prob Mike. Thanks for looking.

I'd love some detail pix on your chain locker cover. I've always admired it. And I've always been perplexed as to how to recreate it. So, no hurry, but sometime before 2012 launch!

--------------
I mentioned my crappy window-reinstall job... Sadie Lucas (and Max the dog) and I crashed around on Lake Michigan briefly on Monday afternoon. 16kts or so and healthy 6+ footers piled up pretty steep and frequent at the mouth of the breakwater for the Muskegon Channel (http://photography-plus.com/fullPic.asp?picID=201). (not nearly so serene yesterday as that photo. It tends to mellow out significantly when you get away from the breakwater, but...) With spray blowing over the cabin as we bashed into the waves, water was coming in my crappy window-sealing job way too much for Sadie's liking. They were both below for that part of the ride and Sadie apparently convinced Lucas that we were sinking... and their blankets got damp to boot. I was assuring them that it wasn't dangerous, just "bouncy" but that did little for their attitudes. My crew was on the verge of mutiny and demanded we return to Muskegon Lake - to which I conceded. We did a big U-turn and surfed back in at 7.5-8 kts. Apparently no enduring damage done to their zest for sailing. Fun while it lasted.

[Ariel 109]

Kyle,

You might think about getting a local welder to fix you existing chock. Somebody with a TIG welder could repair it very quickly.

[Commander227]

Kyle,
I just did a little Google Earth view of your sailing venue, I've only seen it from 35,000 feet when flying to Detroit. You really have the best of both worlds with the inland lake and ready access to the bigger water (and the bigger water being drinkable fresh water). It looks like there are a few options for marinas in the bay, which one are you at? They all look pretty nice from space.
Looks like a great place to sail!
Mike
C227
p.s. let me rummage around for a counter-clockwise chock, I'll let you know if I find one.

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks for scrounging around for a replacement Mike, and thanks Ben for the TIG welder tip. The guy who built my trailer has a good reputation.

Search in GoogleEarth / Fly to "Torresen Marine, Inc." I'm the green blob (In case you couldn't tell, that is not original GoogleEarth data...) pictured below. It's a great location. The environs themselves are nothing to write home about - compared to your place, Mike, for sure. You wouldn't want to hang out there. Think truck stop as opposed to a nice rest area. But location-wise it is great. 15 mintues from home, ~1 mile to Lake Michigan. Muskegon Lake is a 4200 acre lake that has surprisingly little traffic. Deep except along the north edge. When the "Big Lake" is rough or becalmed, Muskegon Lake is flat and almost always has wind to some degree. Must be how it is situated - some sort of air funnel action. It is well protected... unless there are storm force winds from the north - then it gets blasted. Previous years, we were inside the breakwater (left of the blob) but they took all those moderate sized slips out to make room for much bigger sailboats. Imagery must be from this past spring as you can see the barge building the new docks. Now I am out in the unprotected area, as I mentioned.

[Commander227]

Seeing those beautiful white sand beaches brings me back to my childhood.
My Dad grew up in Lansing, then Grand Rapids (Grandpa was a Tool & Die Maker for Oldsmobile)
Every summer Mom, Dad and all six of us kids would pile into the 1962 Dodge Travco motorhome, cross Wisconsin, drive onto the ferry in Milwaukee and visit Grandma & Grandpa in Grand Rapids. Then we would hit some camp ground around Holland, Ludington State Park, Sleeping Bear State Park. Then across the Mackinaw bridge (of course stopping for some world famous Murdick's Fudge) and home via the U.P.
I have not been back since my grand parents died when I was about twelve. I always meant to bring my boys but never did. (que up "THE CATS IN THE CRADLE")
I have great memories of the long climb up Sleeping Bear sand dune and running down, each stride covering about 20' because it was so steep and swimming in that super clear and super cold water.
Mom still puts Murdick's Fudge in my Christmas stocking every year. I need to retrace those trips some day. One more item for the bucket list.
Mike
C227

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks for that memory Mike. Sounds like the images are still vivid in your mind.

Funny, the Milwaukee Clipper - the ferry you took across the lake for those trips - is permanently moored 1 mile ENE of Torresen's and Lucky Dawg http://www.milwaukeeclipper.com/ - now the Lake Express Ferry (http://www.lake-express.com/default.aspx) has taken her place for transport, but you can still tour the Clipper. Search GoogleEarth for "43 13 18.58 N 86 17 45.31 W".

Sounds like a trip to put on the docket for you and your grown boys. A sail on the Dawg is of course a standing offer to add to the trip. I can suggest some good craft breweries between here and GR as well!

...and, had to look up your travel accomodations

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See: http://www.curbsideclassic.com/curbside-classics-american/curbside-classic-travco-motorhome-the-granddaddy-of-the-motorhome-name-and-genre/

[Commander227]

Oh boy, that's her alright! Four bunks in the back, settee and dinette folded to doubles totaling accommodations for eight.
Geez, we put some miles on that old girl. No better family time than driving across the country in a Travco.

[Lucky Dawg]

Haul-out this morning. Alas...

Had a great final sail of the season on Saturday. We were the last girl on the dance floor - Torresen's: "When do you plan to haul your boat??" Saturday was forecast to be sunny and windy, so I stole one more sail. Winds building from 12 to 20+ kts over the afternoon. My crew weathered the build-up pretty well. When it got good 'n' gusty/wet 'n' wild, they tagged out.

Haul-out is never fun, but she looks good on her refabbed trailer. Off to indoor storage. No snow on her new decks this year.

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p.s. I have to revisit my welder. We estimated where that V support on the tongue would go - scooted as far aft as it would go (not scooted yet in the picture) it's about a 1/2" short. Will get Dave to extend the mount by a couple inches. Doh!

[mbd]

A trailer AND indoor storage! I am sooooo jealous! Way to stretch that season Kyle!

[Lucky Dawg]

Someone snapped this picture last Monday and we were in the Muskegon Chronicle yesterday 11/14

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...and Mike - I got a really good storage deal. It was just $200 more to store inside - with access to do "clean" work anytime over the winter. Seemed like two Benjamins well spent. I'm very grateful!

[mbd]

I'd love some detail pix on your chain locker cover. I've always admired it. And I've always been perplexed as to how to recreate it. So, no hurry, but sometime before 2012 launch!
Kyle, I started a thread here... http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2344-Chain-Locker-Ideas&p=24064#post24064

[Lucky Dawg]

This high tech approach to bowing a 4' piece of 3/8" mahogany about a half an inch isn't working. (It will cover my traveller install error.) 3 weeks or so on the rack, so to speak, achieved barely perceptible results. There is probably a better way. Maybe bowing it isn't even necessary. I just don't want it to curl up when only a portion of it is held down by the traveller base.

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[Lucky Dawg]

It's gonna look nice! Took my traveler substrate by Lucky Dawg to verify fit and to make sure that my 2" #8-32 machine screw hardware order was correct. Going to be a nice new piece of aft-cockpit bling. The mahogany is mostly rectangular - has a slight flare at each end following the lines of the laz hatch, but it is subtle and I think it looks really nice. 4 or 5 more coats of Epifanes and we're good to go.

I got 20 yards of mulch spread, the house paint touch-ups done, the garden planted, and a couple rounds of weed and feed down on the lawn. Maybe it is time to sail now!!

I ordered the butyl tape for my leaky portlights from the (friendly, by the way) source that Mike recommended http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2092-I-m-the-new-caretaker-of-Ariel-109&p=24563#post24563. That should arrive by the weekend. Then I can splash anytime. Yippee!! Late May beats the pants off of a September launch (`a la 2011)

[paulsproesser]

This high tech approach to bowing a 4' piece of 3/8" mahogany about a half an inch isn't working. (It will cover my traveller install error.) 3 weeks or so on the rack, so to speak, achieved barely perceptible results. There is probably a better way. Maybe bowing it isn't even necessary. I just don't want it to curl up when only a portion of it is held down by the traveller base.

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Kyle, The pros use steam to bend planks then attach them hot and wet . I tried this for some
thing else and if you use more weight and thouroughly soak the board before it will work or if you like I may be able to post some pics and dimensions of the factory piece the traveller mounts too because the center is about 3inches tall and each end is about 4 1/2 and you can just fill your goof holes

[Commander227]

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe/2012/work.JPG
Looks like the Dawg might have a little Competition at old Torresen Marina.

[Lucky Dawg]

yeah... to the extent that these two are in competition...

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I guess that a P51 comparison for Lucky Dawg is a bit of a stretch. Talisman is an impressive looking boat under sail.

and thanks Paul. I just went ahead and varnished it flat. The bend in the deck is only about 1/2" as you know, so I'm hoping that it'll sit flush once the traveler is attached. It may need a fastener at the forward edge... will play it by ear.

[Lucky Dawg]

Talisman... I'm not sure I know that many people to go sailing with me, and I don't think single-handing her is an option.

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This is off the shore of Traverse City MI.

[Lucky Dawg]

It's been ass bitin' cold in MI. You can't quite walk to Wisconsin, but pretty close. The ice is over a foot thick at the end of the Grand Haven pier and it hasn't been this way for a long time. Apparently 12" of ice can hold a truck, so we felt pretty safe out there. A man and his dog were walking near us on the Grand River side (apparently you are never supposed to walk on a moving river even if significantly iced over) and they fell through - guy up to his waist. Cold 1/2 mile walk to shore!

[Lucky Dawg]

Ice coverage as of today (from NOAA http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/res/glcfs/glcfs-ice.php?lake=m&type=N&hr=00)

[mbd]

My gawd Dawg, and I thought our winter was sucking hard... Love the doggy boots. I never could get mine to wear them.

[Lucky Dawg]

One more cool picture.

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[Lucky Dawg]

Love the doggy boots. I never could get mine to wear them.

Oliver seems to understand that odd-boots beat ice-marbles between his toes. Dawg Logic.

[Ariel 109]

Water Winter Wonderland

Thanks for the pictures. They bring back memories of walking on the ice of Lake St. Clair with my family when I was a kid.

[Fritz]

Great pictures. Thanks for sharing! Can't wait till spring.

Fritz. Commander #3

[Lucky Dawg]

The Dawg is back at it. Lucas delivered us most of the way to our slip from the launch dock. Both dog and boy outgrew their life jackets from last year!

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[Commander227]

You're in. Awesome!
All I've done is pull the cover and make a list.
Here's to a great season.

[Lucky Dawg]

It's been an active sailing year so far. I might need to rename Lucky Dawg "Kidship." It is a fun part of sailing her with Sadie and Lucas that they generally bring a friend. We've introduced lots of kids to sailing. Being so easy to sail, they all get to take the helm and get a feel for sailing. I've never kept a ships log, but I'd guess we've taken 20 different kids sailing with us over the years. Pic below of a couple we've included this year.

Lucky Dawg suffered some superficial damage several weeks ago. Bow line somehow popped out of the stbd chock in a storm and her port topsides and part of her toerail took a bit of a beating against the dock. Hopeful this will buff out, It's not a tragedy, but makes for some teeth grinding to look at it.

Got to sail in Maine a couple weeks ago - my folks live in Sedgwick and we visited for my sister's wedding. Sailed several days out of Benjamin River into Eggemoggin Reach. Perfect weather, steady winds for sailing their beautiful 30' Cheoy Lee Bermuda ketch. Topped off the week with a Summer Sailstice sail to Torrey Island with a flotilla of beautiful sailboats. On Tuesday, we motored in my folks 1966 runabout to Center Harbor, under the Deer Island Bridge to Buck Harbor. Great week of water based fun.

[Lucky Dawg]

NOAA web cam caught me inbound this afternoon. Teenietiny Lucky Dawg between the lights at Muskegon breakwater. First kidless sail of the season - as they're back in school for Monday sailing - bittersweet, but it was a beautiful day. SSW 14kts with steady 1-2 footers.

30 second vid heading WNW an hour or so earlier: https://www.flickr.com/photos/124380869@N04/15180815651/

[mbd]

Great pics Kyle - and oh so jealous! Stinks on these beautiful days when you have to hope for an invite to go out because you're too damn lazy to get your own boat in the water... :mad:

PS. Sure do love those Commander cockpits!

[ebb]

"The further you get from nature, the less happy you are
- and the nearer, the more exultant you become over the world and all that there is in it."

"Sailing a boat calls for quick action, a blending of feeling with the wind and water
as well as with the very heart and soul of the boat itself.
Sailing teaches alertness and courage,
and gives in return a joyousness and peace that few sports afford."

George Matthew Adams (a popular columnist of the '50s and '60s)

[Lucky Dawg]

Newfoundmetals portlights going in. No more freakin' leaks. Small mod to the current openings to accommodate the 5x15 ellipses. http://www.newfoundmetals.com/portlights/stainless-steel-standard/ellipse-stainless-standard In a perfect world, they would manufacture a Commander match, (they make a 5x12 oval that would be perfect... if it was 3" longer. Regardless, I am really pleased with these masterpieces of sturdy, stainless beauty!

The heavy duty template makes it a cake walk to drill precisely and cut perfect openings. Itching to install, but I am epifanes-ing the teak spacers, so it will be in the next week or two to show the final product.

p.s. I have 4 (so that is two complete sets of) intact window frames and two (double paned / sandwiched 1/8" glass windows available. 3 of my frames were already patched together - badly - and one more broke upon removal.

[C38]

While I love the look of the original pearson portlights, I gotta say, those are gonna look great. Really interested to see how those change the profile from the outside.

I had thought about installing these same portlights a few years ago on my commander, but never pulled the trigger. Goodluck with the install, can't wait to see the finished product!

[Lucky Dawg]

Finished this cover today. I used the same design as A414 - cleat and stainless cabinet hardware holding on the center piece. I fiddled with a couple different looks for the anchor, but couldn't make one I liked more than Mike's.

I've been watching some videos (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN-9vCSJWDQ) on wet sanding the final coat with 1500 / 2000 grit, but I think I'm probably going to just leave it as it is. 9 coats of Epifanes and it is about 99% perfect.

Made from a piece of 1/2" african mahogany plywood. Natural, it was way too light and didn't match my interior woodwork at all. I combined a couple colors of stain and after some experimenting, got a good match. (It looks a good bit lighter in this picture than it is.)

My windows are coming along. I'll post some pix soon.

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[mbd]

Looks great Kyle! Awesome! How did you end up attaching the cutout to the main piece?

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks! Stainless latch, and a cleat at the bottom. (Back is not as fancy smooth as the front!)

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[Commander 147]

Newfoundmetals portlights going in. No more freakin' leaks. Small mod to the current openings to accommodate the 5x15 ellipses. http://www.newfoundmetals.com/portlights/stainless-steel-standard/ellipse-stainless-standard In a perfect world, they would manufacture a Commander match, (they make a 5x12 oval that would be perfect... if it was 3" longer. Regardless, I am really pleased with these masterpieces of sturdy, stainless beauty!

The heavy duty template makes it a cake walk to drill precisely and cut perfect openings. Itching to install, but I am epifanes-ing the teak spacers, so it will be in the next week or two to show the final product.



Okay Kyle


I am 100% envious now of your new port lights!!!!! Those are going to add a major upgrade to your boats appearance. Not to mention the huge improvement in function.


I really wanted to do those on Destiny but when I though about all of the other work I still needed to do on her I decided not to do it. After all I really want to sail my boat and not just restore her!


Kudos Kyle, I can't wait to see them installed.

[Lucky Dawg]

Cover installed. Nice upgrade over body, er, sandbags in the forepeak.

Also, I have the cardboard and 1/8" luan templates for this piece if anyone wants 'em.

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[Commander 147]

Very nice!

What I find amazing is how much time a project like this takes. But it not only looks good it also serves a useful purpose.

[elliotr]

Are the sand bags in the front for stability in waves? The previous owner of my aerial has put some very heavy cinder blocks in the v-birth and I've almost taken them out. If I take them out I assume the boat will bounce more in the waves.

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Elliot,
They are there to balance the boat on her lines. Check this thread: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2034-Balance-advice-and-input

I wouldn't have noticed visually, but apparently Lucky Dawg used to squat aft a bit. What I did notice was that under sail, the lazarette was constantly awash with about 5 gallons of water and at rest, water pooled at the aft toe rails rather than flowing to / going down the scuppers. I experimented with adding more and more until finally I had 240 lbs of tube sand (about 20 bucks at Home Depot) in the forepeak. That eliminated both of those issues. Since they are used for winter pick-up truck traction (I presume) they are triple wrapped and less likely to spring a leak than construction sandbags. It doesn't happen often, but on occasion, Lucky Dawg can time waves so she wallops the water with her bow pretty joltingly. The sandbags are heavy, but snuggled in there very gently - if you can say that of 240lbs of mass. I would worry about the cinder blocks only because they have sharp corners - points of contact with the hull being more concentrated vs. over a long smooth sandbag line.

[elliotr]

My thoughts exactly. I'm going to be removing those cinderblocks asap and replacing them with sandbags. I was in 6 foot waves last September in Lake Michgian. I didn't think about it at the time but my god, the though of those cinderblocks coming loose and jumping around scares the hell out of me now.

[Lucky Dawg]

So my stainless rub rail got abused this past season when a bow line hopped out of a chock and my rub rail r u b b e d on metal dock parts to an ugly degree. Let's just say that the affixing screw heads were rubbed completely flat. Not quite done with the rehab yet, but these videos have been great for getting abused stainless back to a mirror finish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTxR8LB9iek part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc1iY08HU7w part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWy9awGv6so part 3

[Lucky Dawg]

These would roll out prettier in the summer sunshine, but... I'll take some interior next visit.

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[Commander 147]

[QUOTE=Lucky Dawg;26987]These would roll out prettier in the summer sunshine, but... I'll take some interior next visit.


Kyle


Man you make me wish I had bit the bullet and put those in Destiny. That looks fabulous and no more leaks is only a minor plus when you consider how young that makes her look!!!! Your mistress has a whole new sexiness about her!

[C38]

I agree with Jerry, they look fantastic!

[Lucky Dawg]

Initial installation of garboard drain. The couple holes above the on-purpose hole were exploratory trying to ID the bottom of the bilge. A gallon or so of water seeped out from the lower hole after drilling the bottom hole. Followed directions from this site http://www.oocities.org/earlylight160b/InstallGarboardDrain.html which were spot on. Can't do the interior grounding part because of my enclosed bilge, but otherwise... followed that guidance. Couple trips to the warehouse to epoxy my exploratory holes and I can check that off the BIG list of projects I have underway.

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[elliotr]

Lucky dog, your last post peaked my interest. I think I may have some water at the bottom of my kiel. I repaired a crack in the front of my kiel and some water seeped out. If there is water down there, it's sitting below the lead ballest, so my question is, how far down does the lead ballest go? How much space is between the bottom wall of the fiberglass kiel and the lead ballest?

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Elliott,
There is a ton of discussion on the forum about the keel void. (better than the search option here, go to google/other and enter: site: pearsonariel.org "whatever you're looking for" (in quotes)) The manual also has some discussion on pp. 41-42. (Manual, by the way, is well worth your $35.) I'm not blowing you off, but it is better stated than I might several times over elsewhere on the forum! There may also be a diagram in the manual, but I haven't looked for it in a while.
Water is pretty diligent and finds its way wherever it cares to. The void isn't in the front of the keel where you found seepage, but that doesn't surprise me that some worked its way up there. Here in MI where we're unfortunately 6 mo. on the hard, dry-out is an option. Not sure what the advised dry-out regimen might be where our yachts are 24/7/365 in the drink.
KW

p.s. What's your Lake MI port?

[elliotr]

Lake Charlevoix (Pine Lake) is my home port. Feel free to blow me off if need be, no insult taken. It's really hard to know what the long term effects of water on raw fiberglass would be. No matter what, water is going to find it's way down there so I suspect emptying the kiel does nothing more than reducing the exacerbation.

This brings me to another points. My boat is hull number 267 which I think means it's 50 years old this year. In another 50 years I'll be 79 If I live that long. I wonder if these boats will be sailing around a century after they were built. If that does come to pass and I'm long gone, who ever's reading this forum in 50 years, I'd be much obliged if you'd pore a drink over the bow while under sale in hull 267.