A-271 Michalla

[hawkinsp]

Howdy from Sheridan, Wyoming. Our family has been enjoying playing around on local lakes in our O'day Widgeon (12 ft) and our Hobie 16. If you have sailed lakes in Wyoming you will know that you are either enjoying the sunshine while waiting for wind, or hanging on for dear life as you try to talk the others into taking another run before the sails are entirely shredded. (slight exaggeration but only slight)

I had been looking for a cruiser and came close enough to purchasing another Alberg (Seasprite) last winter that I drove to Annapolis, MD. to visit it. I apparently have a soft spot for the lines of these Alberg designs. In any case, while in Europe for the summer I had the time to do some serious searching on line and came across this Ariel in Ventura (just down the road from Simi Valley, CA where I grew up) and negotiated the purchase of the boat, the acquisition and refurbishing of a trailer that would be roadworthy, and finally hauling the boat out during the Long Beach boat show rush hour all from long distance. I paid to have the boat brought half way to Wyoming. I drove to southern Utah and picked it up. We turned around and drove back up here the following day.

Our plans are to take the next three to four years slowly refurbishing it. We would like to make it truly comfortable for two to cruise in and eventually take it to the Mar de Cortez (Gulf of California) to cruise.

That said, I will be full of questions and not much help myself for the first few years I am sure. Here are a couple of photos of the boat at its new home in Sheridan, Wyoming.

By the way, it has three names still visible on the hull, they are Miranda, Micbeth and the current name is Michalla. We plan to change the name when we have finished, but the name will not begin with M this time. If anyone has any information on this hull please let me know. I would like to know all I can.

So for my first question. I know that there is some water in the keel as it maintains a wet spot on the ground where it is dripping just in front of the rudder. I am worried about what might happen if that water were to freeze (-30F is common enough here for the next six months or so). Any suggestions?

Well, looking forward to getting everyone's thoughts.

[frank durant]

Great project boat.Don't be afraid to drill a 1/4 in. hole in the keel to allow water to drain out.This is a fairly common problem as many of these old beauties have sat in storage for years.A small hole is a very easy / cheap patch. Water freezing and expanding can lead to a much more serious problem than a 1/4 in hole. I drilled 5 holes in #50's keel to drain all the water out.....easy fix.Leave them open as you do your restoration so that any 'new water' can drain.Patch near the end when you are ready for bottom paint. You'll find LOTS of info here...on all topics.Use the 'search button'...if that doesn't work...post any question.Have fun!!

[mbd]

Peter,

Welcome and congrats! We look forward to seeing your progress. (i.e post lots of pictures)

[joe]

Welcome, My name is Joe Haney, I am the EXTREMELY fortuante owner of Sirocco. If you need inspiration or ideas just type her name into the search function. I cannot take ANY credit for her beauty as that belongs strictly to the venerabler Mr. Alberg and a fantastic fellow named Steven Airing in Maryland from whom I bought her. Steve made her what she is today and did a most excellent job of it. I understand what you mean about the wind in Wyoming, I've been there many times photographing the Union Pacific Rail Road. It is very much like here in Tulsa, OK. One minute you're becalmed and five minutes later you're even considering reefing your skivvies. I do wish you the best of luck with her!! And many congratulations on your fine choice of a fine boat!
Joe

[hawkinsp]

Thanks Frank:

I read your mail and the manual and went out this morning and drilled a 1/4" hole in the bottom of the keel two inches forward of the rudder shoe. I drew nothing but dry fiberglass. I moved up about three inches from the bottom of the keel and drilled another hole and again drew nothing but dry glass. Am I looking in the wrong place? I was anticipating a gush of water but nothing. Upon closer inspection I also noticed that there are two screws that I am assuming hold the bottom of the rudder shoe in place that have backed out about 1/2 " and have been bent over to a 90 degree angle. Water seems to be dripping from those two screws. Would it be wise to remove those two screws and allow the water to flow from there? I will have to eventually replace those screws anyway as they are damaged. What advice might you have from here?

[frank durant]

#50 had 2 'wet spots'...1 was near the forward upward curve of the keel and the 2nd about 1/3rd back.Both released a lot of water...the forward about 2 cups !! Some one here may have experienced a similar problem at the shoe.If you drilled right through..at least now you have no worries of collecting water until the rest of your restoration is complete and it's 'bottom painting' time. When you go to patch the holes...grind a 'dish shaped' erea with the hole in the center..start with a small circular piece of cloth,then slightly bigger..then bigger etc.Precut them. I put 6 or 7 layers on.Takes very little cloth,epoxy or time.I sanded the erea down once it had 'set up'..applied a marine filler..then sanded smooth and painted.Was one of the easier jobs on #50. I'm sure some one will advise on the shoe but it sounds like the screws need replacing in any event.Curious...how thick was the glass at that erea ?? Take pics of your work...EVERYONE likes to see a project as it unfolds. Mike Goodwin may have thoughts on this..his opinions are worthy....he has a lot of experience. Have fun.

[hawkinsp]

Alright, I've done it. I drilled a hole in the bottom of my Ariel. I'll have to admit that while I was preparing to do this I was wondering if this was yet another snipe hunt, or cow-tipping experience. You know, some rite of passage for the new kid on the block. But with encouragement from Frank and having read about this in the manual I decided that it would be better to repair a small hole in the bottom of the keel than to wait to see what freezing and thawing might do with any residual water in the keel.

Sooo, lacking the proper set-up, I carefully backed the trailer onto the curb to give me more clearance to drill from directly underneath.

Then I took a 12" long 5/16" bit since I had read both 1/4" and 3/8" and also because this was the only bit I had that was 12" long and I had drilled with a normal bit (3" or so) and had drawn nothing but dry glass.

I then measured forward 2" from the rudder shoe, gulped deeply and drilled away in search of a void full of water.

I found the void about 8 1/2" through solid fiberglass. I inserted the bit entirely into the void to be certain that I had found the void. I believe that I have. On the other hand I found no water. To be fair, the boat has been out of the water for about 2 months now and today was the first day that I noticed that there was not a drip hanging from the rudder shoe.So the water that was there, may have finally escaped. While under the boat I did notice a rather serious rot in the bottom of the rudder to which I will need to attend.

I would truly appreciate everyone's thoughts on what I am doing here.

[mbd]

Peter,

81/2 inches?? you sure you didn't drill up into the bilge? :)

You may find some useful info on this thread: keel voids (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=604)

You may also want to consider installing a garboard drain at the bottom of your bilge to give any rain water or ice melt the chance to drain before it is absorbed into the nether bowels of your keel. (as mentioned in the thread above and the manual...)

[ebb]

Peter, good photos, man!
If you're looking for the keel void it may still be a bit further forward.
338 has a definite step down from the end of the ballast into a kind of sump under the companionway. It gets pretty narrow at the bottom and is close to the bottom of the keel. The narrow space continues on back but sweeps up a bit in a curve as it meets the keel where the rudder is. There is some depth here to the build-up of polyester and glass. But in 338 I wouldn't consider it major, nor a source of much water. [ebb's Gallery page 9, post 135 has a picture of #338's aft bottom interior keel space.]

The fiberglass that encapsulated the top of the ballast inside the boat on 338 did not seal off the end of ballast at the sump. Therefor much of the encapsulated voids around the ballast drained into the sump.
Conversely, if the bilge was kept wet, that ofcourse migrated into the ballast area.

Many boats have the area behind the ballast handled in different ways. Sometimes, evidently, by the factory. Sometimes by a DFO. It may be filled with who knows what? You have to see if that stepdown is there. If it isn't, you'll do some more deep drilling. My experience was that my first hole was drilled up just forward of the heelfitting and another a foot or so further from that. (Second hole broke thru at about 3". First hole I can't remember, but there must have been a reason to drill the second!) Both produced a tiny bit of water that I assumed was in the laminate. And were left open for a long time.*

The narrow area at the rudder and at the end of the keel might have been a hit or miss situation for the workers when the hull was being laminated at the factory. Some voids may have been inevitable. The thickness of the bottom probably varied quite a bit. But let's say between an inch and three. More then that, then you have drilled into something other than the hull. Tailings should tell you what.

To dry out the hull the bottom paint has to be removed and the ballastkeel area also drained. These drain holes can be lowdown but thru the side just above the turn in the bottom of the keel - which is a lot more convenient and easier to fill in and repair. Tap the hull for solid and hollow sounds. When I drilled into the ballast area water came out and drained for a long time. Can't remember, maybe weeks??

I haven't found any scientific evidence (in books or on the net) that these early glass and polyester hulls breakdown in some way if they are not protected from water and watervapor. Some tests show that seawater saturated NEW laminate can shear easier than dry, but there is no exchange of molecules with water, if it can be put that way, as the laminate returns to its original strength when dry.
Later hulls (none Ariel's or Commander's) not built with isophthalic resin can experience water-intrusion blister meltdown and have to be preserved with vinylester or epoxy barrier coatings.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
My epoxy supplier, TAP, has 2oz syringes that are strong enough to push thickened epoxy up into holes. Don't know if it's necessary, probably get enough up in a drilled hole pushing with a dowel. If the hole is wide enuf, you can get fiberglass dowel (1/4" or 5/16") and just leave it in there!!! If you aren't waiting for the holes to dry, you can now get repair kit epoxy that sticks to wet surfaces. Haven't used it myself.

[epiphany]

Peter -

Looking at your 1st pic in this thread:

Is it not amazing that you can look one of these vessels sitting strapped and stranded dry on a trailer, mast down and deck littered with rigging, hull covered in a patina of years of mold, mildew, and neglect, and the lines of the thing, the sheer *beauty* in her shape, just make you smile and go "...Uh HUH!!!"? :D

Congratulations on your new boat. It'll all be worth it. :)

[hawkinsp]

I contacted one of the previous owners of #271 and he sent me this picture of when he owned her. Thought you might all enjoy this.

[hawkinsp]

Just a question. I have the number plate for 271 but I do not know where it is officially to be affixed. Can someone help me on that?
thanks

[Hull376]

Here's original location on 376 (picture during the rehab in 2003.) Just behind the tiller fitting.

[Bill]

Actually, the plate was usually centered above the ob opening. Previous owners may have moved it out of the way of sail controls or whatever.

[Lucky Dawg]

Alright, I've done it. I drilled a hole in the bottom of my Ariel. ... Then I took a 12" long 5/16" bit since I had read both 1/4" and 3/8" and also because this was the only bit I had that was 12" long and I had drilled with a normal bit (3" or so) and had drawn nothing but dry glass.... I then measured forward 2" from the rudder shoe, ... .

Finally! I have been searching in vain for this post! Saw it eons ago, but couldn't hit the right search terms to find it when I needed it. (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?p=14177#post14177 post #7)

Being in line to be the next owner to purposely drill a holes in his boat... I've read the manual and the many keel void posts here, and I was wanting some pictures and measurements.

Thanks for posting the pictures, Peter. Between your measurements and others suggestions, Lucky Dawg may look like swiss cheese when I'm done. It seems that a drain fitting as folks have suggested would make sense, but I am wondering if that fitting is necessarily preferable over just drilling a hole again next year.

On that similar subject... Mike, I was curious about your suggetion of a drain fitting at the bottom of the bilge (for draining rain water while hauled out.) How on earth would I estimate its position? I don't have an xray handy and the top of my bilge is glassed over... Do I just drill in the vicinity like a woodpecker??

Inquiring minds want to know.

[bill@ariel231]

One other option is to put an access plate to the keel void in the bilge. A-231 is currently fitted with an o-ring sealed waste deck fitting in the bilge to provide access to the keel void. I can check the void mid-season with a dipstick (and pump out if required, it's been dry for the 6 seasons since the last keel repairs)....

[frank durant]

If you look in '#50 revival' ...post 16 shows a pic of where her drain was located.It was the deep,open aft end of the keel.Great for the offseason. http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1239&page=2

[Tim Mertinooke]

My approach was a bit more unconventional. Because the bilge on A-24 was not fiberglassed over, but simply filled with foam on top of the lead pigs, I was able to extract all of the junk from the void leaving a nice deep fully accesible bilge with no surprises. Once dried, cleaned and prepped, I coated it with epoxy ensuring its water tight integrity. No regrets, although it was a lot of arm straining grunt work. I posted lots of details. http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1558

[Jack]

Tim,

I am still reading through your original post so forgive me if you already answered this question, but doesn't opening up the bilge like that increase the static head your bilge pump needed to overcome?

[mbd]

Mike, I was curious about your suggetion of a drain fitting at the bottom of the bilge (for draining rain water while hauled out.) How on earth would I estimate its position? I don't have an xray handy and the top of my bilge is glassed over...Kyle, I just finished winterizing this last weekend, and the last thing I did before I left the boat was to drill a hole deeper and farther back in my bilge to drain more of the water. I had a guess as to the location based on where my existing garboard drain is located. But, to determine the spot, I simply "sounded" the general area by tapping with the handle of a screw driver and listening for a hollow "thunk" instead of a sharp "ping". My new hole and future garboard drain location ended being almost exactly where A-50's is from Frank's post. Or here: http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=11838&postcount=19, right at the aft end of the green in Periwinkle Bill's excellent diagram from the Keel Voids (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=604) thread.

As far as a glassed over bilge, I'm afraid I am of no help there, since mine isn't.

PS. Love all the "Dawg" pics. Beautiful boat - those green topsides sure look nice!

[Lucky Dawg]

Thanks Mike. Don't know that they have the same impact on others, but I know I enjoy the pictures!

I appreciate all of the feedback on this question.

So I poked two holes in my keel. Silly marina pulled and set her on the trailer before I could get there... So on the port side, I drilled about 4 inches forward and about 2 inches up and also about 5 inches above that - with the thought of placing my shop vac blower against the upper hole. ..and got just a 1/2 a cup or so of water that kind of foamed/bubbled out. I guess I had expected a gush of sorts. I presume that is a good thing. The lower drilling felt solid most of the inch or so in, the upper after less distance clearly poked into a cavity. Just some bubbles came out of the top hole. Referencing Bill's picture http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=11838&postcount=19 I'm assuming I was in the zone. Despite referencing your collective authority, the mainly powerboat maintenance oriented folks there thought I was nuts. "WhatEVER Dude... your boat..."

[Tim Mertinooke]

Tim, doesn't opening up the bilge like that increase the static head your bilge pump needed to overcome?

I'm sure it does, but again I don't like surprises so cored out it was. To be honest my electrical bilge pump never got hooked up this past summer and I used the manual bilge pump maybe a half dozen times. The bilge stayed bone dry (no kidding) unless it rained and it would fill up just a little. I know for a fact that water can migrate from the bottom of the bilge, which is inaccessible for most Ariels, to the outside and vice versa as the photos in the Ariel 24 gallery show. If one does a good job sealing the rudder strap and shoe with say 5200, it would probably stop the flow of water, but I opted for full access. I also saw where water migrates from the ballast area into the bilge void itself. It is at the back of the cast ballast area where there's one, maybe two layers of laminate that are horribly tabbed in place. I would shop vac the area and then when I turned the vac off I would see water leaking into the bilge from the ballast area.

http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/bilge/bilge%2022.jpg

After allowing to dry out completey I then coated it completely with thickened epoxy. I also put a large amount of unthickend epoxy that would fill any cracks or voids preventing any routes for the water to take.

http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/bilge/bilge%20epoxy%205.JPG

I often thought about adding a plug, but to the backside of the ballasted area. I was really considering this and recommended it to the new owner. I planned on removing the the laminate that was there originally and removing about two or so inches of lead and then relaminating where the original was. THis would allow the room needed to put the plug in. In the winter, any water that did make it in between the lead and hull would exit through that plug into the bilge. pump the bilge out and leave the plug removed for the winter and walla, no water or surprises and there isn't a plug going through the hull which is another possible leaking place.
Man, just talking about all of this work makes me mourn that I didn't get to finish A-24. I had some real plans for that baby and will certainly miss her.

To get back to your original concern about the pump not being able to suck water up from that depth, I would probably mount the pump higher in the bilge by galssing something to the side of the hull that the pump would mount to and just hand pump the water that the pump could not reach when needed. No biggee.