Tools that work & Etc.

[mbd]

Just curious what tools folks on the forum highly recommend (and highly don't recommend) for boat maintenance jobs - especially you guys who have done this for a while. Tools you use alll the time and wouldn't be without, etc.

So far, these are my "big" purchases:

Cirular Saw: had it, but am adding a carbide blade with many teeth for cutting the deck skin.

Porter Cable 5" RO Sander: recommended by many folks on the Plastic Classic Forum for general purpose grinding and sanding. Mine uses the adhesive backed disks which I purchased from http://www.mcmaster.com/ which seems like a good source for just about anything.

Thanks for any and all input and pointers.

[commanderpete]

Yeah, the Porter Cable is nice. I called mine "Swirly Shirley." She stopped working unfortunately. I went with the hook & loop discs and bought the discs with the holes in them which are cheaper.

Although not a substitute for proper power tools on big jobs, a cordless kit is real handy. Good for around the house too. These go on sale pretty often.

http://www.ryobitools.com/index.php/catalog/tool/p860/


No substitute for a sawzall for some jobs. Jigsaw is handy sometimes. Circular saw is OK. Not enough torque for thick wood. Little sander is good for tight corners. I thought the flashlight was silly, but I use it. The wet/dry dustbuster is junk--not much suction.

I had a ryobi cordless drill already. Its great to have two chargers and 4 batteries. Two drills too. Drill a pilot hole with one drill, pick up the other drill and drive in the screw.

I think an angle grinder is good to have also. The dust kills them. I burned out a Dewalt, then a Craftsman. My latest one is a $30 Ryobi

[Doug]

For those of us on a strangled budget Harbor Freight (www.harborfreight.com) has lots of somewhat questionable quality / foreign tools at a very good price. The 4 inch angle grinder has lasted me some 6 years including a plumbing remodel. Things like 3/4 inch socket sets that would be hundreds elsewhere are pretty affordable.
Cordless tools are what come in handy for myself - sanders, drill or small cir saw.

[eric (deceased)]

these portable rechargable tools are extremely useful in storm prone areas.after hurricane jeanne in '04 destroyed the marina I was in I used 18 volt ryobi porable tools to no end---from everything to repairing things ---to fabricating an excellent outboard motor mount ---to get the boat out of where it was to some 150 miles away to the next marina.

[mbd]

I use my cordless drill all the time. An extra battery in on my list. I'm also planning a trip to Home Depot and see what sort of cordless packs they've got. It is convenient not to have to drag a power cord around.

[Stephan]

I wonder how long the batteries on those little guys last though... I'm planning to do this repair on my boat's stern the coming weekend, and I guess to sand the repair area the little 'Corner Cat' sander will work.
But when it comes to sanding the whole hull prior to repainting I guess I'll have to get a proper belt sander, or else I'll be needing a week just to sand the hull...

When I went to my local Home Depot I noticed they have many different Ryobi combos, some of them leaving out the handheld vacuum (you said above it's useless anyway for lack of suction) and the jigsaw (I don't know what to do with the thing anyway...)

[tha3rdman]

I like my Royobi set, (Circ saw, Sawsall, vac, flashlight, drill, charger) Additons I made are 2 extra batteries, and the rotoziplike thing.

Seen some companies have out their Li-Ion sets, wonder if they are worth the premium?

[Mike Goodwin]

Don't use a belt sander !
Use an orbital sander , easier on you and the boat and the finish will look much better. Get a Porter-Cable or DeWalt and use 60 grit disks , you will need about 2 dozen for an Ariel . Change the disks often a sharp disk cuts faster .

[eric (deceased)]

it depends on how hard the appliance is used.after the storms of 2004 I used these tools exclusively and intensly-- as ther was no power at the marina----and as the battery lost power the tool would loose power too.this is why more than one battery is good to have--as one wears out----use the one on the charger ---the catch 22 is -----if the power is out----how do you recharge the battery----usually a remote generator or other power supply can be and was located for this----and the portable tools transported to the job site---in my case----a destroyed marina-----what a scene--- :eek:

[Stephan]

All right!

I took your advice and bought one smaller Ryobi set, and my first impression is good - they seem handy and sturdy and designed with a lot of attention to detail. I got the $129 set at Home Depot that includes the 4 tools: drill, circular saw, detail sander and light. It comes with the charger, 2 batteries and bag. Now my fingers really start to itch!

Thanks for the advice about the sanding. Sure I get an orbital sander. Two dozen discs??? Sounds like I'll be sanding the whole day long! I've never done this at all and so have no idea how long ittakes. How can you tell if you sanded a spot enough? I would guess when it doesn't shine anymore?

I won't likely do this this weekend since the boat is outside and it's expected to rain a lot. But I'll attempt the repair on the deep dings and gouges I showed you guys in my other post. I read up on your posts about the use of poly vs. epoxy and am a little surprised that it's not a clear thing - well, not really. I start realizing that there are many ways to do the same in boating, and that's part of the fun. As somebody said in another post - if it doesn't work out, just grind it/sand it away and try again!

[mbd]

I got my Porter Cable 5 " RO Sander (http://www.mikestools.com/7335r-Porter-Cable-Variable-Speed-Random-Orbit-Sander-5-Factory-Recon.aspx) here. About $100 with shipping to Maine. The reconditioned version has the same warranty as a new one. I got 2 packs (25ea) of 60, 80, 120 and 180 of 5" Adhesive-Back Clog-Resistant Alum Oxide Discs - another $100+ . I won't be buying sanding disks for a looooong time - hopefully. :eek: In a few months I should be able to pass on what worked and what didn't.

[Mike Goodwin]

A disk might last 10 minutes before it is counter productive to keep using it .
They don't go bad and you will need them later or inside or topside etc.
You are looking to get an even surface , dull with no marks.
Keep the sander flat and don't push down on the sander , if you have to push against the hull and hear a major change in rpm's ,the paper is dull and needs changing .
Tipping the sander wears out the pad that holds the disk in place , been there done that .
I get 25 disks for $5 so don't be cheap , you are wasting time, not saving paper.

[mbd]

Thanks for the tips Mike! :)

[commanderpete]

You dont need many tools for boat work.

You want a drill and electric RO sander. Working inside its good to have a little ShopVac and a light.

Sometimes you have to do heavy stripping and grinding in preperation for new glasswork. A sander will do it, but it takes time. This is not a job you want to linger over. I prefer an angle grinder with sanding attachments. They have a rubber pad attachment that takes hook & loop pads. Even with higher grits its very ferocious and must be handled with care.

You cant reach tight spots like corners with a sander or grinder. I use attachments for a drill like wire brushes, grinding stones and the like.

Most projects can be accomplished with just these few tools.

Cutting tools are only needed if you're going to cut into the boat or work with wood. Other specialty jobs may require special tools.

But, for the most part, boat work is grunt work.

[Mike Goodwin]

With or without cheeze?

I agree Pete, I have 3 grinders and they must be used with extreme care and the lightest touch .You can do some serious damage with a 40 grit disk on a 5" grinder in seconds ! Lots of big swirlies !

[eric (deceased)]

these grinders turn around 10,000- rpm---I bet they can be used to power the boat in a pinch--jus' hook it up where the power head to a small outboard was--using a generator for power----I got this idea whilst driftin in nowheresville---I had a yamaha generator---a small electric drill---and the shaft from the sea generator----anything wooda' been bettern' nuttin.necessity is the "muther of all inventions"

[drm901]

I try to get the best quality at the cheapest prices, so when they go overboard I don't feel the urge to dive in after them! I've gotten some real good hand tools (wrenches, sockets, screwdrivers) at Big Lots. When I sail, I harbor hop in Lake Huron and most marinas do not have the services to repair anything. So I believe in the self-sufficiency. And since I have an inboard 2-cylinder diesel, I have a few more tools specific to keep it running well.

Keep everything in a plastic toolbox that is just wide enough to fit into the side laserette.

[eric (deceased)]

I have had to go up on deck at all hours of the day to effect repairs while still under way.it is a good idea when doing so to attatch a line of some sort from the tool to your------well in my case----safety harness.I distinctly remember fashioning that new bowlite from the "dime store lites"and the most versatile tool used under way for me is/was a large vise grips---and any other such tool ---that varies in size---- that can be used in a pinch.also be careful when using power tools around water---and volatile liquids----

[mbd]

Lacking the chemical stripper that was recommended, I used a $25 heat gun from Home Depot and heated as I scraped. It worked pretty well.

The Stanely 9-in-1 tool which I also used for removing deck hardware and coamings is great. The cabinet scrapers were given to me many years ago. I never used them, but for some reason I hung on to them. They worked really well too - I guess that's why they make them. The red handled paint scrapers are worthless.

A couple of notes: 1. Heat guns are HOT. 2. Latex gloves are not heat resistant.

[mbd]

Everyone but me probably already knows about these. But, I had never seen one until a couple of years ago when Tim L. used a self-centering drill bit while installing my cockpit hatch. With this bit, after the hatch was laid in place for a dry fit, it was just a matter of zip-zip-zip and all the pilot holes were drilled - each nicely centered. I finally got one this Summer and have found it very useful for reinstalling the various pieces of hardware. I got a #8 which has worked fine for everything so far...

[ebb]

I hereby take back any implied recommendation for the PorterCable 371K Compact Belt Sander. See post 81.


Self-centering VixBits:
You have to have a VixBit to install any hardware, hinges and latches.
But you can also use them to center holes on non-chamfered hardware, like chocks and cleats. #12 and #14 are good ones to have aboard too. But for those sizes you must shop around. Prices vary a lot, and sometimes a set gets you individual bits significantly cheaper, especially for what they bite you for on those larger ones. GarrettWade has a complete set for about $38. Chinese but nicely made.
Klingspor Woodshop, the sanding catalog, has #12 and #14 VixBits for $10, $11.
[I find that instead of futzing with the bit length in a Vixbit, it's more convenient to get the screw-hole spotted in the work, then use a taper drill for the depth screw you are using for the fitting. Or the proper sized straight bit for straight, non-tapered screws that are popular these days. This is the way to do it if you are driving screws into hard wood, and have to tailor the hole.]]

Also, the Klingspor Germans make/sell some of the best sandpapers on the planet!
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My TOOLS THAT WORK candidate for this list is
PorterCable's 371K Compact Belt Sander (2 1/2 X 14).
It's about 9" long - and proportionately tall - because the belt has to go round and round, but I've sanded flat surfaces with it.
It's small, it's weighty, you can find it for around $100 these days. Only PC makes the belts, so you pay for those! Easy to use, it's an ergonomic soft onehanded belt sander, good for edges and flats, made for plywood and frp carpentry. You can hook a small vac diameter hose up to it! Because of its smallness it bears little resemblance to it's larger breathern. The proportionate weight of this sander is a plus in tracking the belt on the work, it's a good feature in an allround nice design. Can get hot.
Comes in a stupid toosmall case. No slot for extra belts....etc.
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And for them who like to get tool catalogs, Lee Valley Tools has the most satisfying one in the business. They also feature Veritas which are often jig tools from the past, modernized, updated - beautiful tools in their own right! It's what GarrettWade wishes it was. It's what Woodcraft, Hartville, Rockler will never be. I'd rate it Numero Uno for 'feel good'.
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(Nov. 2010) DON'T BUY THIS SANDER.
Just had this little belt sander die on me. Went into forums and found one guy who had his die because the DRIVE BELT broke. Amazing how some people don't listen, posters on that site would pop in with their take on sanding belts, not comprehending his post.
The replacement drive belt costs $26 (when he was writing about his experience) and he opted to get the part and replace it himself because of the downtime in UPSing the tool to an authorized repair shop - and of course what that repair would cost PLUS packaging and shipping and futzing around. The drive belt is 25% of the tool cost.
And the tool costs too much to toss it. So it will sit in its terribly designed case and die in tool limbo.
No warning: pushed the switch off and it won't run pushing the switch on now. (So it can be the switch, rather than the drive belt!) The sander didn't have time to get hot this time, altho it warms up and gets really hot to touch where thr tips of the fingers hold the tool. All long term users mention this. You can burn your hand!
The idea and virtual design is excellent, but the product off the shelf is very flawed. As the guys say, it may have something to do with PorterCable now being owned by Black&Decker - who have earned a rep for cheap junk over the years. PorterCable had a great rep. I still own a couple of their D-handle routers, decades old - the rubber covers on the cords cracking with age - but their toggle switchers still connect.
(sigh)
PROS: The tidy size of the belt sander, easy to finesse, had no problems with sanding belt tracking that some rweport. The rubber ergo top has easy location and dust protected on and off push buttons, a nearly dustless vac attachment, and a nice tame cord.....I'll miss these. Never worked the bugger hard. There isn't a whole lot this baby can do. But it's perfect when needed. When can you use a belt sander inside a small boat?
Never had any nother sander suddenly konk out like this PC371. Nor any other PorterCable tool I've had around. Imco it's a big red flag to stay away from further involvement. Goodbye PorterCable! Hello Makita. They have a two handed 10" long 3X18 that looks promising......

[Jack]

In the spirit of ebb's post about tool catalogs. I have used Defender Marine for tons of stuff relatively cheap. They have everything from foul weather gear to replacement tillers to safety gear. You name it, they have it. I am probably stating something that most of you already know, but here (http://www.defender.com/) it the link to their website.

[ebb]

This indispensible tool comes from looking into one of C'pete's Links (Repairs and other stuff) on the Link Thread.

Want to draw your attention to a great adaption of a common socket tool to the how the hell do you remove the through-hull problem.

This comes from George de Witte of the Nepean Sailing Club.
What you do is find a socket wrench, the cup thingy, that fits snugly INTO the through-hull and cut a slot across the cup that will slip over the two lugs molded inside the bore.

With seacocks, using this adaption you will be able to back out the through-hull while leaving the seacock in place untouched. maybe it is damaged or needs recaulking. If you have ballcocks you need the wrench to hold the through-hull while you unscrew the fitting inside. Two person job.
Not to be ridiculous but the tool is useful if you are adding a new hole in your boat. It's a pretty big deal to mount a true flanged seacock properly. But once it is in place, you can take the time to turn the t'hull in - and take it out to trim it - until you get the length exactly right. Then turning it in a last time with caulk.*
A one man job. And theoretically you could do it with the boat in the water. Might want to close the seacock.

Cutting the slot into hardened steel socket is perhaps not the easiest thing.
George mentions a way he did it. I might try a plywood jig that a hand circular saw with a carborundum blade would slide in. You'd have to immobilize the socket in the jig. Maybe drill a hole hole slightly too small that you bung the socket into! I'm assuming that single passes of the blade in micro-depth increments would cut the groove and the groove would not be too wide. A friend with connections to a machine shop would be a good alternative. As they say: different sockets for different through-hulls - hopefully the same driver. 3/8" was suggested.

[Recently installed small 1/2" seacocks using a short length of modified 5/8" brass hex rod to turn the through-hull . A box end wrench was used to turn the fitting into the seacock through a bulkhead. The inside part of the hex rod was machined round to fit and long slots milled into the round sides to slip over the lugs. Being brass it was no problem to machine. But in this case, most of us would have to have it done by someone with a metal lathe. Had fairly long slots cut so that there would be more bearing surface when used to break the rubber caulk seal if the fitting had to be removed. The slots fit the lugs in the through-hull without too much slop, much like you'd want any wrench to. The through-hull is nylon. But the same would be good for a bronze fitting. The lugs are rather small and the more tool surface you get on them (by having longer slots) the better imco.]

Polysulfide has the rep for being the correct underwater caulk for the t'hull/seacock. It'd be more likely than polyurethane to allow mechanical sheering when it comes time to take it apart than 5200 or maybe the newer silicone/urethane** hybrids. It's just my feeling that p'sulfide stays elastic longer than p.urethane. T'hulls are notorious for being non-removable.

This seldom used socket alteration can live with the usual wrench collection aboard and therefor would always be found when needed.

This slotted plug idea has been given the coveted Five Star Seebee's Can-do Award.:D
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*If your flanged seacock is mounted on a nice backing plate that is epoxied or 5200ed permanently over the through-hull hole.... It seems possible to screw the t'hull in with old fashioned underwater bedding compound. The seacock should be waterproof with the through-hull removed. Much more civilized.
**Silicone/polyurethane hybrids (except for BoatLife's LifeSeal hybrid) are new enough in the states that not much is talked about them on forums. These hybrids supposedly stay flexible forever, never hardening. It might be easier to break a flexible seal rather than one that has hardened.

[ebb]

Nut drivers are useful tools. What they have going for them is their hollow shank, which means you can often spin the nut all the way without have to find a wrench. Nut drivers are specific to the nut, which means you can reach the thread end in impossible locations with the nut in the cup ready to spin it on.

Nut drivers come in sets of seven or eleven usually. If you own metric as well, that means you have sixteen color coded handled drivers in your tool box. The one you need is never there and the metric ones don't fit.

It's time to find a compact kit for the boat anyway.

Here's one that looks like a nice set. Has a stubby red handled adjustable wrench and needle nose pliers too. A short and a regular handle for the nut and screw drivers. But the nut drivers aren't hollow and the set is in a space-robbing hard case.

Here's a stainless steel set from McMasterCarr for about $800! A W L R I G H T !

Here's an adjustable cup nut driver that fits 1/4" to 7/16". I'm sure to want the 1/2" size.

Here's a canvas roll set of screw and nut drivers, but again the socket driver shanks are not hollow. Nothing about the metal finish either - and they want $58.32. Ought come with a stubby crescent wrench for that price!

Why don't we have needle-nose pliers with an adjustable axis like all normal pliers? Could then hold a tiny part with more parallel tips.

Here's a 45pc Stubby Tool Set (Performance Tools)
http://hondadirectlineusa.com/stores/product.asp?ID=459670
Direct Line Parts. Shadow Online Store. 888-693-1011
SAE 5/32 to 3/4 and metric 4-17mm sockets (but no hollow shanks). The (screw-driver handled) socket driver is dual ratcheting 1/4 and 3/8" (which to me means you can replace a lost socket). Comes with another ratcheting screw driver also for 4 kinds of bits. Also a stubby crescent-style wrench. In vanadium steel with rubber handles - for $30. But in a see-through plastic box. Not bad. Like the size range and compactness. Might get it.:)
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LATER ADDITION:
OK kids, Have received the compact Stubby tool set from the Honda motorcycle site.
The set does have a perfect range of chromed sockets (4mm to 17mm and 5/32" to 3/4" - it'll handle the nuts for 1/2" bolts on the SAE side.) And an adequate range of 10 bits. The ratcheting driver for the sockets is about 5 1/4" long with a nice stout plastic handle and no-slip rubber inserts. Has the 1/4" driver on one side and the 3/8" on the other which does the whole range - as will the 2" extension.
The bit driver is 4"" long with a magnetic head to hold the bits. There is an adapter which will allow you to use the sockets except for the the last three that are 3/8" drive. It also ratchets and has an immobilizing locking ring.
The third handled tool is a crescent-style adjustable wrench that opens to 1".
This tool, unlike the sockets and other drivers is NOT PLATED and will begin rusting immediately. An amazing omission.

Even more peculiar is the case.
It houses the pieces and two of the drivers. BUT the more important driver, the chromed socket wrench is attached, unprotected, outside to one side of the case - like a handle. THAT's Borg weird. The case and lid was molded specifically for what looks like a 7-of-9 after-thought. "OOPs. Li-po, we forgot something!"
And the blow-molded insert that holds, marks and separates the pieces in the case is pretty thin for anything long term, and holds everything too deeply for easy removals.
SO, Has good points and some glaring bad ones.
I think all tools like these want to be in space saving soft rolls or cases aboard a small boat.
Give it a generous 2 out of 5 - the set needs further development. After the plastic case breaks and the liner starts splitting what do you do with the collection? The unseen ratcheting mechanisms inside the handles given the strangeness of the adjustable wrench might also be halfassed.
But it is kinda cute and might be useful.
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__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
What I really could use is a compact convertible (interchangeable) socket/bit driver with hollow shanks. I'd have 3/16" to 5/8" chrome nut cups that fit onto hollow shafts - and the same complement of metrics the Stubby set has..
The sockets would have rubber nubs inside that hold the nut in the socket no matter where you wanted to put it.
Hollow shafts would fit into a single cushion grip handle. The set could also include a ratcheting driver or two, a 90 degree handle, and a super-stubby that only the sockets fit on. Very often you can twist a handle but not swing a crank. [Got to get in that electrical panel again.]
Seems like a simple idea - but haven't seen it. The set would come in an anti-rust treated fabric roll for compactness with the sockets stacked one above the other but individually accessed through velcro pull-strip holders. I'd pay 36bucks for it maybe out of a marine catalog.
Make it so!

[ebb]

from a company called McNett.
Here's a candidate for the 'Tools That Hopefully Work' category.
It's a clear matte peel and stick tape to be used on synthetic and natural fabrics, fleece, rubber, vinyl - on clothing, tarps, raingear, sleeping bags, mats, backpacks, stuffsacks and so forth. One guy used it to repair a bike tire. Maybe sails too?

It peels off again without leaving a residue. A way step up from 100-mile-an-hour tape: duct tape - which cannot be removed without delaminating and leaving an amalgamated mess.

It is sold in a roll 3" X 20" for the camping trade in a blue see-through plastic container. $3 to $4. That's nice too!


Found the stuff reviewed on the Backpack Gear Test site:
www.backpackgeartest.org
"The most comprehensive interactive gear reviews and tests on the planet"

What you guys and gals got to do is go to that site and see how it works.
To be a reviewer of a product your opinions are preceded by an extensive review of your background, along with the website's methodology for 'testing'. A really nice system, imco.
I have let my Practical Sailor sub lapse because I no longer find their reviews important and questioned their methods
and didn't give a damn about megayacht 'tests'. It may be that PS for me slipped into a recognisable 'personality'. Where I want a product review I get an annoying and questionable PS review. [Maybe the last straw was their comedic marina mud anchor test a few years ago. Close second their paint chip comparisons on a Boston Whaler.]

What is refreshing about the Backpack Gear Test site is that there ARE real individuals involved and a number of their reviews of one product - and the mettle of the reviewer is always on display. At least we can read the testing methods and decide if they are trustworthy. Extensive testimonials. Check it out.


Backpackers are true minimalists when it comes to gear. A lot like micro-cruising an A/C. There have been some great gear changes since my camping days.
A product you might check out for its use onboard for the gunkholer is a tiny UV watertreatment device - "mUV Ultrviolet Portable Water Treatment System by Meridian Design,Inc." Just the idea of taking a UV water purifier in a backpack is mind bending to me. What will they think of next, etc!
Haven't explored the Backpack Gear Test website at all. Hope somebody from here looks in and comments on it.....

At first blush this website makes me wish us small boaters had a Product Review Board for ourselves. Right now we have to roam the forums and read a bilge of hype.

I've been looking for a very compact ultra-lite tarptent to carry in the truck for emergencys, and overnight camping. Any interest???
If the package is truely small enough it would be great to have aboard. A tarptent stuffsack would have useful fabrics (Polycryo, spinnaker cloth and Tyvec, for example), Spectra line, noseeum netting - that would have a place in the ship's survival grab sack. Including that little roll of Tenacious!

[ebb]

On the rudder discussion thread we talked a bit about the usefulness of Dremel type tools. Often used for model work they are necessary when small details and close up work must be done.

Here is a source for tungsten carbide 1/8" shank wheels and burrs of many shapes. The wheels can be used for cutting and shaping composites, laminates, fiberglass and of course wood. The source also has carbide sleeve drums for the 1/2" rubber arbor that I've not seen before.

When you go to the home page of the Duragrit site you'll find a video showing the tools being used. A Dremel-type tool adds a lot of versatility to tackling picky on board projects and please-fix-this stuff around the house. Here there is a variety of carbide grit bits I haven't seen before. Prices are perhaps better too, I've paid $16, maybe more, for the combo cutting/shaping 1 1/4" wheel at the local hardware* - here they are $12 + S&H.
{It occurs to me that this price may be in Canadian dollars???}

I haven't used this source yet, it just came from a friend. Looks promising.

http://duragrit.com/us/index.html
They are a Canadian company. There is a telephone to call. Maybe they will do a debit card. I won't type any bank numbers into the computer.
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* no longer available from Dremel

[Tim Mertinooke]

This particular tool was especially helpful when I removed all of the debris from the sump of my former bilge...
http://www.funshop.com/images/fs_dbh_l.jpg

[ebb]

Beautiful!
A great adaption of the outlawed stadium brewski hat.

Looks like this one has a special T-fitting allowing both cola cans to be emptied simutaneously into the back of the brain - entirely bypassing the stomach.:eek:

A couple improvements would be to include
petcocks at the T for improved flow control. And a chin strap.

Tim,
I know you're enjoying cucumber sandwiches and iced tea on your dusty-bilged upscale this spring!

Fair winds, far seas, and fast bottoms.

[ebb]

Tool catalog for Fall 2008 arrived recently in an order. The catalog seems to be more of a supplement this quarter. As usual the art work is beautiful, clearly showing what you might be buying.

Here is a selection of interesting and pertinent stuff:

1) Corrosion Inhibiting Storage Bags.
They are 4mil polyethylene impregated with a non-toxic corrosion inhibiting vapor. Example: Ten 10"X12" bags for $8.10. Other sizes. I feel tools are much better stowed in soft bundles than space robbing plastic cases. These could be overwrapped in canvas or sunbrella pieces and tucked into the triangular spaces that abound in our boats. Maybe small cordless tools could be wrapped in this stuff?
[ McMasterCarr has these blue bags (cat pg 1514) AND also rolls of corrosion inhibiting film (pg 1523) for ferrous and nonferrous metals. They do not say whether the vapor is non-toxic. Have no way of knowing if they are the same product as Lee Valley's.]

2) Blindman's Fractional Electronic Caliper.
Does it all, mm, fractions and inches - converts back and forth and is 'hardened stainless steel'. $42. Recently had to check on the guage of some metal. Each of the three analog calipers I found had a different reading. Time for my first digital. [This is not a $300 tool - so it may be chinese.]

3) Universal Thread Restorer.
Hardened steel cutters adjust to any style and pitch or direction of thread. Tool is compact and rotated around the thread. $26.50. [Can't fix threads in holes.]

4) H D Duct Tape.
Non delaminating, leaves no residue, water resistant. 90' roll $7.95. [But will it stick to damp surfaces? How long will it last in the sun?]

5) Stainless Canisters with see through acrylic disk tops.
$3.40 / $3.70. 3.3oz and 6.8oz - for small parts storage, large mouth, rounded edges (spun stainless) friction seal tops. Just might be better for some things than plastic bottles.

6) Clamptite Tool.
Tool and Wire $32. Makes permanent hose clamps with s.s. wire. Chromed steel and aluminum - might store well in above bag. Not sure what access is needed to hose and fitting. [Wire is wire - and you can find all 316 band clamps with rolled edges these days - for a price.]

7) Clamshell Scissors.
$4.95. Serrated s.s. blades for cutting wire, thin sheet metal, leather, fabric and welded clamshell packaging. Styled like fabric scissors, off-set handles for flat surfaces makes this versatile.

8) Lifetime Knife Sharpener.
$15.50. 'Sub-micron carbide particles' on the blades, but each can be reset to another edge 4 times. Considered a 'single pass' sharpener. Can be set for left-handed use. Said to have a 'long as you live' guarantee! [Will it sharpen the wavy edge blade on the leatherman?]

This is a selection of some of the stuff that might be useful aboard. I've left out many items.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
Unnecessary to say: I'm not an agent for these people.

There must be an old aphorism that states:
A good tool is more constant than a good friend!

[mbd]

Got one of these this Spring after my stupid little hand-pump oil changer thing leaked all over the place last Fall. If you hate changing oil like I do, get one! I had so much fun, I changed the lawn mower and snow blower oil while I was at it! Great little device!

[ebb]

What do we do with the used oil these days?

I don't think my oil change franchise accepts used oil anymore.
My off brand quick gas doesn't advertise taking it.

[mbd]

Last I checked, our Jiffy Lube would take it.

[Chance]

Hello all,
I'm ramping up to cut out (remove and replace) my bulkheads and lower chain plate knees and can't visualize the right cutting tool that will accomodate the task of cutting as close as possible to the hull without actually making contact.
Is there a cutting tool out there that cuts flush or close to, and will eat fiberglass and resin soaked plywood? Also one that will work in tight places.
It looks like I'll be adding to my tool inventory, just don't know what or where to look. For my backstay chainplate knee, I cut it out with a saw zaw, but I was hoping there is something better out there.
Some where a while back I'm thinking of a mention of a Master cutting tool. Am I right? What is it, and where do I find it.

Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[tsprat]

try the fein multimaster, it is a pretty nice tool for flush cutting

tsprat

[ebb]

tsprat is right on!
Despite being flogged on TV as a home improvement tool, it's real worth is boat work.
It is another one of those german tools that initially costs an arm
with the blades and accessories costing a leg.

Method of work ie cutting is vibrating /oscillting. Nothing turns or jumps around.
Their dainty dog-leg push blades cut straight in. They come in two or three widths starting at about 1" wide. This is the only tool anywhere that you will be able to cut the bulkheads off flush with the hull.
A reciprocating sawsall (that I have used in the Ariel) is really dangerous. You cut the bulkhead off leaving a stub. Then by bending a long Lenox against the hull attempt to pare the remains. Then you're into grinding to remove the rest of the tabbing. OH FUN!

The Fein will allow you to do it in almost one clean shot. As a plus you won't have to be a contortionist because the Fein is essentially a one hand tool.
You are going to smoke the expensive blades eating fiberglass, but that's the price for finesse.

It will do costly sanding into corners. You must buy their trianglar papers. I think Fein was the first and we woodworkers salivated until we found out how much it cost! There is a triangular grit tool that works well on lumpy glass. It is loud, much louder than what you hear on the tube ads.

On the down side is the funky fiddlely vacuum attachment. If Festool gets a 10 for their system the Fein gets a 3 in the design dept. However the oscillating nature of the Fein tool doesn't throw much dust in the air.

The one you probably want is advertised as the Fein Mutimaster. It comes with a 'home remodelers' set of attachments you can try. Woodcraft on the net has a video like the TV ad with a breathless annoying voice over. Take a look if you don't know the tool.
Big Box hardware stores - or look for online catalog sales: for example ToolCrib, ToolsPlus. Somebody may have a decent deal. $200 to $400.
Jamestown has a good picture display of what's available, however their prices suck.

[Commander227]

Chance,
I've replaced dozens of bulkheads in a variety of boats using a thin piece of stainless mounted to my rivet gun. (a hold over from my past life as an aircraft mechanic) An auto body air chisel would work well also but be less controlled.
Mostly you will just be cutting the fiberglass tape, but this will go through the plywood as well. its a little loud, but produces no dust, and is very quick. I can usually get a bulkhead out in just a few minutes.
If your careful you can follow the contour of the hull pretty well, care is required when cutting around the cored deck areas. I usually cut from both sides under decks rather than going all the way through both sides.

[SkipperJer]

Chance,
How long is the joint between the bulkhead and hull? Given that you had the patience to do a recore from below I'm guessing you might also have the fortitude to cut the bulkheads out by hand to save $200++. I've seen a lot of bad wood taken out of old wooden boats at the Havre de Grace Maritime Museum Wooden Boat Building School making use of the flexibility of a simple pull saw from Shark.

http://www.amazon.com/Shark-10-2204-Dowel-Dovetail-Detail/dp/B00004TBPU

If you can get started down into the joint at the top of the bulkhead one of these flexible saws can be pressed against the hull, flexed and cut into the joint almost flush. My guess is the curve of the hull would allow for this approach to at least rough them out. You may need to do some grinding on what's left. You might score the surface of the hull in the process or go through two saws but have more money to put into new sails. Given the work you're going to do putting new bulkheads in, cleaning up the scoring wouldn't take much.

You might mock up the joint in plywood and give it a try. I've seen some amazing things done this way to try to save old wood on a some old boat rehabs. You might find something a little heftier than the Shark Saw if you looked around. It could take longer to get it done this way but save quite a bit of cash.

[SkipperJer]

Chance,
I was typing my post just as Commander 227 was posting his rivet gun solution. It's the same principle. A flexible or shaped piece of metal can be made to cut pretty flush. His solution is less strenuous. both will work.

[epiphany]

Fein's patent has expired, so there are less-costly alternatives out now. A round-up:

http://www.toolsnob.com/archives/2008/11/oscilating_tool_roundup.php#more

[kendall]

I have a few fairly stiff putty knives, 1" to 6", the ones with a hammer cap on the end. Sharpen them up a little, and they'll cut right through tabbing with ease. One of the 1" is sharpened as is to use as a starter, the others have both corners rounded so they won't did in. They're flexible enough to follow the hull, but stiff enough to cut right through the tabbing. Cutting speed is actually pretty impressive, saws can't compete especially when you consider that they won't gouge up the surrounding area.
Most of the time, once the bulkhead or cabinet etc is removed, you can use the putty knife to remove the rest of the tabbing so the only grinding needed is to provide tooth.

I've only removed one bulkhead with a sawsall, and that was enough to convince me to look for a better way. Wasn't too slow, but dirty, itchy, and scratched up the hull enough that it made more work.

Ken.

[ebb]

you guys are scaring the beetjuice out of me.

That old rock hard fiberglass CAN'T be that easy to cut!
With PUTTY knives?:eek: Go on wid ya!

Maybe a piece of stainless on an air tool....But still....

I have been putting in a FLUSH THRU-HULL.

Depth needed for the chamfer to be flush with the hull: 5/16"

Discovered by drilling the hole:
thickness of hull in the bilge of A338: 5/16".

I know the thickness of the hull up at the seam was about 1/8", because I saw that also!


You guys are giving me no confidence that there is any integrity, any toughness
any strength to our purdy lit'l boats.:confused:

[Chance]

To all that took the time to respond so graciously, a hearty thank you!

I now have, thanks to those that have been there, done that, the info to proceed. There was some great input. Here's a few comments in general:

1) I would find it very hard to believe that the tabbed in bulkheads, and associated furniture would could be cut with sharpened putty knives. Perhaps a "chisel", as they of course would work in areas that are accessible enough.

2) Hand powered draw stroke saws would work in open areas, to some degree.

3) Ebb, I was thinking of installing flush through hulls as well (haven't pursued that project yet), however I determined the same thing you know, hull thickness. My solution would be to glass in a 1/2 thick piece of G10 garolite from (McMaster) that would support the sea cock flange and would obviously give the the thickness (perhaps I bit overkill) to accomodate the mod. This would also provide a very flat surface on the interior (bilge) side.

4) I'm involved in working up on the foredeck currently. I've mocked up my anchor platform, chain/rope deck pipe, mooring cleat, chocks, and cowl vent. I've finally determined all the locations of each of the above with an emphasis on fairleads from all points that will be in use at one time or another (speaking of the future of course). I'll post photos on my gallery page in a few days.

Thanks again everyone.

[kendall]

The hulls are plenty strong, and the bulkheads as they're installed are perfectly fine. You could drop kick them and not break them loose.

Key to using the putty knife to remove the bulkheads is in the words 'hammer cap on the end' you need that because you use a hammer.

You don't cut the bulkhead, you cut the tabbing, the putty knife is flexible enough to follow right along the hull, but stiff enough to slice through the tabbing with ease.
I use either a deadblow hammer, or one of those double faced rubber/rawhide hammers to drive the putty knife.
The prefered putty knife is one with a decently thick blade, NOT the cheap 'red devil' type with the real thin flexible blade.

Nearly every bulkhead (berth,seat,counter etc) I've removed on a production boat has has had between one and four layers of glass, most often only two, and it's very easy to cut. It's only on owner done bulkheads that I've found bulkheads that have tabbing you can't cut with a putty knife.
Last boat I did it on was A198, and it went as easy as any other boat.

It's the same method as with commander 227's air hammer, just doesn't cut plywood easily.

Ken.

[ebb]

Chance, thanks for the input!

I had laid in 3/8" of Xmat and epoxy befor I holesawed just the depth of the chamfer. Barely enough it turned out!. Then I vacated the old polyester for the thru hull flange with straight and V router bits. Then continued to holesaw the big hole thru.
I have the seacock and a Whale foot water pump sharing this cubby hole (about 14" wide) between two minor bulkheads. The seacock in its own footprint is built up thicker with layers of ply.

I chose to use Forespar Marelon. That means I had to use their nylon thru hull too. Because it is nylon, that is why I chose to install flush.
That fitting is really not made to be cut shorter like you can with bronze ones. I called up F. to find out why the inside wrench ledges were at the far inside of the fitting. "These are from the mold casting of the fitting, not meant for screwing the thru hull into the seacock,"

So I've built up the thickness (about 1 1/4") under the seacock with Meranti ply. I've built up enough that the thru hull when screwed in flush with the hull does not bottom out in the seacock. All the wood pieces and the hole in the boat will be sealed with epoxy. Am thinking about using a thread seal tape for most of the two inches of thru hull in the seacock. And just bed the chamfered head and the hole in the plywood backers in thiokol. Not sure how to manage this, but I don't want polysulfide inside the seacock.

I think I'll bed the seacock on butyl tape.
[ There is no good way to take out the thru hull once it is set in polysulfide, once the rubber has cured. It's stuck there forever.
BUT a thru hull can't allow water into the boat screwed into the seacock. Therefore the fitting does not need to be glued in at all, Right???
Think I'll find some beautiful butyl wet caulk and bed with that. Bolt heads also!]
Am I missing something?



The finesse is to get the backing plate under the seacock at exactly 90 degrees to the thru-hull.
And the thru hull wants to be in flush with the bottom, not tilted any.
Forespar instructions are for a very large oversize hole in the hull and backing so their fitting won't bind when everything gets tightened.
That's a lot of wet rubber again!!!

[epiphany]

I cut the tabbing on the main bulkhead using a cheap chisel and hammer. It was easy, quick, and dust-free.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=3613&stc=1&d=1156769891

[ebb]

Ovations for the innovations posted here for cutting out those pesky bulkheads.

STILL, imco the Fein MultiMaster is probably the most versatile renovation tool for our historic fiberglass boats. Not to say that it is as efficient or even compares to what can be accomplished with a smart airtool. And an innovator behind that tool.


The MultMaster is an excessively EXPENSIVE corded tool.
The 'accessory' blades are even more excessively OVER-PRICED.
E-Cut Universal Narrow and Wide 'bi-metal' blades - the dog-leg flush cutting ones - are about $50 for three.

Fein has no specific blade for working FRP. I've been using E-Cuts for fiberglass. The bi-metal aspect is for cutting thin metal and nails along with wood. Heat build up on the blades imco kills them. The E-Cuts are quite thin and that with eccessive heat may take the temper out of the teeth. Have been cutting thick glass that requires the tool to work hard. However the thin blades do surgical quality work for as long as they last.
Also, they probably aren't made by Lenox.


There is animated discussion on the net (type in Fein on google) about MM.Other cheaper competitors are appearing, Couldn't be too hard to come in cheaper - and 20 year old patents are running out. Craftsman and Bosch are two. If you think you want an oscillating cutting tool check with these first. The blades will not be interchangable. Aftermarket blade makers have been threatened by Fein with patent suits. These guys have disappeared. Those that still sell non-Fein blades for the MM sell at prices not much under the real gouge. And no Aftermarket E-Cuts have appeared anyway.

Guys in the remodel trade want $15 blades for $2 to $5. That is what they should be sold for by Fein. If the tool wasn't so good at straight IN CUTTING nearly everybody would have bailed for a cheaper tool by now. This tool started life as a get-in-the-corner triangle sanding tool, but there are better shorter triangle sanders now, its main claim these days is its ability to plunge cut straight in. At a wallet plunging price.
That's what it's good at on the boat. The E-Cut Universal Narrow is my favorite - even if they dull too rapidly.

Other useful blades are the brutal triangle handyman rasp and the ($45!)* smaller finger rasp for rough shaping of frp.

Fein could do no better than develop a few more blades for boatworkers.
Blades that will happily cut fiberglass all day (carbide?), cut aluminum and s.s. tube, and cut the ends off s.s.bolts.
A set of smaller less aggressive diamond rasps as flats and 1/2 rounds for detail work in corners.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
($45)* .....Bill won't stand for OBSCENITIES on this Forum.
But that right there is a real bad one!

[epiphany]

Ebb -

Several of the competitors are discussed at the toolsnob.com link I posted on the previous page.

The 'copycats' have been out long enough that there are starting to be some regular-Joe boatpeople using them. There is some discussion at this link (TSBB) (http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/tsbbcomp/trailersailor/index.cgi/read/697278).

[Commander 147]

I've started using these sanding disks on my random orbital sanders and they work better than any others I've tried.

For hook and loop try these. The 80 grit 5" dia. is part # 4195A11 at this link

http://www.mcmaster.com/#4195a11/=2a65ub

For adhesive backed version try these. The 80 grit 5" dia. part number is # 4675A53 at this link

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/115/2624/=2a67rq

[ebb]

Thanks Kurt,
had not seen ToolSnob before. He/She is good! First reviews I've seen on "over-molded cases" which are often designed by idiots who will never use the tool. Would like to see ratings with more depth. Was the funky Fein ADD-ON vacuum pickup rated?
Cords. Fein has one of the most pliable, TAME and generous cords of any. Easy to pack back in its case.
Case. The Fein case has an amusing fantasy handle that looks like a fettucini maker. Bottom of case is rounded with feet projections which makes it PITA tippy on anything but a flat level surface. Just plain stupid. ETC.

Both aftermarket blade suppliers (Imperial, Multitool?) for the Fein don't go beyond WOOD blades. Have not seen any of the Fein rasps copied. I believe the toughest blades are called E-cut Universal which can be used to cut sheet metal. I would use this ability to compare any other oscillating blade tool.
I would hope aftermarket blades got compared as well.
Just bought a pack of three E-cut Universals from an independent hardware for $62!* That's brutal. That's nasty.
Fein can get bought out by Walt Disney for all I care.

In rating a tool for modern boat work, we'd have to include the tool's ability to work fiberglass and some forms of thicker metal like steel bolts and aluminum plate imco. This isn't likely. They would have come out with better blades by now instead of concentrating on the oddjob middleclass handyman market.

BUT it seems that so far only Fein MutiMaster is powerful enough to become a boat tool - it is not all the way there yet. I've also noticed the tool under load can get HOT. Don't mean pushing it, merely persistent use.

For anyone remodeling a boat I would first try a Harbor Freight clone with cheap blades. Sounds more nautical anyway.
* You can buy a Fine clone (Chicago brand) for $39.99!! Might even come with some blades.:rolleyes:
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
Went back for a better look: Fein does have 3 1/8" circular blades that can be used for fiberglass. They could be used to cut off tabbed bulkheads. I think the dog-leg E-cut plunge cutting blades are more flexible and precise. Didn't think to use the round blades.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
[later post, 11/12/09]
The Fein over-produced shill TV ad for their $300 (PLUS very pricey blades THEY DON"T TELL YOU ABOUT) home-owner's handyman tool has caused a spin off of vibrating copys by everyone: Craftsman, PorterCable, Bosch. Altho I haven't 'tested' any of these, they all seem to do the exact same things as the Fein, only cheaper. You still pay thru the nose for the blades, imco. None of these do any metal work.
The test for that would be cutting off the end of a bolt/machine screw. A simple request....
Fein failed miserably.
It's a disappointing buy imco. There are no metal cutting blades. As a detail sander with the triangular pads, it's not very good at detailing at all. Fein is good at straight in cutting with the 'E-cut' dog-legs. Fiberglass smokes the blades.

Not worth the price for what uit can do remodeling a glass boat. Start with the cheaper ones:(

[ebb]

Practical Sailor July'09 looks at and rates $100 to $200 sunglasses.
Cover photo shows a guy wearing correctives closely inspecting a pair of Harken's with a doodah scope.

This article has a good deal of general knowledge about protecting the eyes with the use of these tools. I'd recommend it for everybody to read. It is. imco, very hard to excuse some of the prices that fashionable glass get. I'm sure there is a perfect pair if you can afford it.

Despite the tech on the P.S. cover wearing corrective glasses, there is not one pair of 'fit-over' sunglasses tested. I wear glasses - and I would think many consumers do. This omission is myopic of P.S. And while not typical certainly typifies the personality of the magazine.

So I got edjucated but I got no help.


All on my own I discovered SOLAR SHIELD. Wearing them for years.

They are sunglasses that are sculpted to stand off from your face enough for your regular glasses and still keep the sun out of the eyes. Imco they are really nice looking, even stylish. Fairly comfortable considering there are double frames on your nose. They come grey and amber/copper and clear.
You must make sure you get the polarized ones.
I like the amber and find them clear enough to wear even at night in oncoming traffic.
They don't fold small.
The earpieces get very skinny in section and can break. My last pair did but then they live on the UV dash of the truck.
They have kept their natty new appearance for years despite the high heat and knocking around with other pairs on the dash.

Found some recently on the net for $18.95.
They come in two or three widths, which gives them some custom. They supposedly are available in drugstores, but I haven't noticed.
Worn them while sailing, and had them stay on without using Croakies.

Can see having these aboard like you do extra lifevests, for your guests. (Put some tape or mark on them because they might leave with them too!)

For what they are I'd rate them one to five with a :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[ebb]

First, please accept an apology for seeming to high-jack this venerable thread as I seem to do others. BUT, this has to be important.

One of the worst things we renovators do to the Commander and Ariel is sand/grind the interior down to green fiberglass. Breathing this dust is dangerous to our health - THAT is an understatement. We did the interior of lit'lgull from stem to stern with a 4" Makita angle grinder. Without a vacuum attachment.
I hired a guy to do it.
And have profoundly apologized to him.

If you can smell the work you are doing through your mask you are contaminating yourself. I did a hardware store lead paint test on the paint in the Ariel and DID NOT FIND LEAD. However, even thru the canisters we wore we could smell the paint and smell sweet styrene from the ancient polyester. If there is a shaft of sunlight you can see tiny pieces of glass filling the air you are breathing.

Long after the boat was grinded, the wood shop on the estate where I am employed got a Festool system.
Festool is basically a modular set of hand power tools engineered to remove any dust from your workplace. Dust is drawn into a powerful vac THROUGH the tool. It works unbelievably well. A tool is wired to the vac which shuts off when you shut the tool down. BUT there is no way you or aye can afford the system. Or the vac.
I took the vacuum and a disk SANDER down to the boat for a little grinding on the hull. The air stayed completely clear - the vacuum was in the cockpit so the HEPA 'used' air did not recycle in the accommodation. It was to me a revelation. No evil dust and no facial appendages that never work anyway. I don't believe Festool has an anglegrider in its system. If they did you wouldn't need a DustBuddie!

My grinding days in lit'lgull are over,
but here is something I think somebody could look into. Even if you haven't torn the interior apart.
Dust collection is mandatory in every boat yard.
Whatever bottom renewal system you have, if you are fortunate enough to have your boat out in a DIY yard,
look into these two shrouds that fit over the head of your grinder. I am suggesting that a backing pad can be bolted on to an angle grinder and flat sanding disks used to turn the grinder into a sander. Have to watch gouging. It is probably safer to invest in an orbital sander with 8 hole disks and attach it to a energetic sander. Can be noisy.
http://dustlesstechnologies.com

One shroud for your angle grinder is called Dustie and clamps around the head of your grinder. It looks like the cheaper of the two.
The other one is a see-thru polycarbonate shroud with a "brush skirt" called DustBuddie. It looks more versatile, and seeing the work is a plus.
If these work at all they're probably worth every dollar.


[Just checked their prices. They each have a small and larger model, as for your 4" Makita. and a 7" model for larger grinders. The see-thru fancy one is $102!! The Dustie is $30 They say the DustBuddie will easily clamp on t o a Makita angle grinder and any number of other 4 and 5" grinders. The website shows only hoods for angle grinder style tools - no stand-up sanders.]
Here is the internet buy-site:
http://www.dustlessdepot.com

Dustless Tech also sell vacuum systems you can connect with your tool. They are in the ridiculous price range of Fein and Festool. For a little inconvenience you can hook up with a reasonable Rigid vac from HomeDepot.. We're not in the contracting business.

[For years the head maid here on the estate has used an ash vacuum (for cleaning fireplaces) made by Dustless Technologies. Never a problem.]

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Thanks for posting that link to Dustless Technologies. I had not seen their website before and I will check it out in more depth soon.

For the work I have been doing on Destiny I have been using a Bosch 6" sander with built in dust collection hooked up to my Porter Cable tool vac that has a dual filer system. The bosch sander has an aggressive mode that while it is not as fast as using a 4" grinder it creates a LOT less dust and I put up with the slower progress because of it. In addition I wear a dust mask and protective clothing. With the health hazards in doing this work I certainly would not want to make a career of it.

[Frenna]

On the topic of dustless vacuums, a tip. Until just a few years ago, shop-vac branded vacuums were heinously noisy clunky things, but I picked up one of the new yellow plastic ones several years ago and it is a dramatic improvement. No need for earplugs to use it.

More importantly, they sell a variety of vacuum cleaner style bags that can go in it, and the yellow colored one (I think that is the one for fine dust/drywall dust etc) really does work amazingly well. I used to use a porter cable dust vac to deal with drywall sanding dust because you could kind of clean out the pleated filter, but the shop-vac with the fine dust bags beats it hands down. I can sand drywall dust off of floors for some time before they bog down. Much to my surprise. And it holds A LOT. Powerfuly, quiet, cheap, readily available. (Ace hardware). I use it for architectural stuff hooked up to my sanders and life is much better. It would work fine with a festool I imagine, which helps control the cost of that option. I also use it for quick connection to table saw/chop saw when I do not have my full wood working dust system on site.

Even better, you can get extra hose and connect it to the exhaust side and get it out of the project or out of the way.

As for the cylindrical pleated filters that would replace the useless foam liner which is used in place of a bag, it is great as a backup for the bag, but they clog to easily and are hard to clean for the only line of defense. I put one on as a backup inside the fine dust bag.

Also handy for sucking water out of bilge, basement, bathroom, etc. (without the bag of course)

I got a pretty big one, I think it was not much more than a 100 bucks. I imagine festool would charge that much for an extension cord.

[Ariel 109]

My two cents.

I don't miss my Fein detail sander at all. I think it caused me more work than it saved. But that being said I'm in the pneumatic sander camp. Lighter weight, don't heat up, way more control, last forever and do a much better job. Fein makes a pneumatic version of their sander which will allow you to instantly control the speed of the action, that's really important to me on a sander. I'm sure you could run it off a 20 gal compressor. Summer humidity can mess up pneumatics which is a drawback. In my shop I run a refrigerated air dryer. But if you keep your sanders well oiled they should be alright.



Ben

[ebb]

Was born with a metal can Shop Vac. Hated it. Hated it for YEARS. Nothing stayed together.
Pulled on the hose the plug would pull out of the wall. Try vacuuming with hose extensions and everything would pull out of everything else. Use just the hose and it would drop out of the vac.

Worked recently with a giant Rigid for years on the boat. It ate a lot of glass. Kept sucking until you had to empty the enormous bucket. Most of the stuff was impacted in the pleated filter. Couldn't replace the filter because a new one cost too much - so it got a lot banging and whacking to clean it. When I did, the vac acted new for awhile.
I ran a hose from the exhaust side out of the boat. Didn't phase it.
But it was too big any more and had to go.

Now I have a smaller 'cannister' type Rigid, the type with two cart wheels that you pull around with the hose. It does not have enough power to have hose attached to the exhaust side. Can't lock the wheels so the damn thing moves all the time like grease.
It was fairly cheap but it really is a PITA.
And it's loud. The on/off switch works OK in one direction but not the other. Halfass.


Looking forward
I really wanted a vac that would do well with an oscillating 5" 8hole sander for seasonal bottom work - but also anything else around the boat requiring dustless - which is absolutely everything around the boat. I have used the Festool right angle 5" oscillating sander with the matched vac. ( I don't like working with palm or vertical sanders.)
That's about $1200 right there, before the special hook and loop deutsch disks you have to buy to fit the import platen..

So far here in this thread the Porter Cable 5"RO gets good marks.
I don't know if I can just jump back to a ShopVac I guess the PC Vac is axed by a poster here....... I'm at a loss for a good small vac.

So what is a good combo?
Need a well designed, light, easy to hold oscillator with an inexpensive source for 60grit.
Would be great if common 5" 8-hole papers could be used.
Need a small, powerful, QUIET, easy to maintain, light weight vac (washable cloth filters rather than paper) maybe wetvac feature as well. One that likes the sander it is attached to.

When I get hauled for a DIY bottom job I want to at least appear to know what I'm doing -
and I don't want to switch on a loud vac and an annoying whining sander. Do I want to attract that kind of attention? And want to avoid draping the boat with blue plastic to keep dust contained. Ideas?
Seriously.:confused:

[Commander 147]

ebb

You say "I guess the PC Vac is axed". Does that mean you don't want to consider the Porter Cable vac for some reason? I like mine and it works well with my Bosch sander.

[ebb]

Hey Jerry, I thought I read here a post that didn't give it 5 stars.

And I just went back 3 pages to scan it all (this guy ebb sure talks too much!!!)
Didn't find it.

Anyway, I'll look into the PorterCable vac - which I don't know.

[Commander227]

I have had many years of great service from my Fein dust collector/vacuum. It uses a washable pre filter and a disposable HEPA filter. It also has a socket to plug in your electric sander, table saw, etc. so the vac turns on and off with your tool. It has logged hundreds of hours often running 8 hours a day and still works like the day I opened the box. It is also pretty quiet.
Mike

[Commander227]

9-55-13 Fein Turbo II Vac features an automatic on-off switch
Plug your sander into the panel mounted outlet. When you turn your sander on, the vac starts automatically. When you shut your sander off, the vac continues to run for 3 seconds to clean the hose.

The Fein Turbo II is designed for heavy, continuous, industrial use. The Turbo II can handle power tools with inputs of 40 to 2000 watts (.3 to 19 amps). The powerful two-stage motor offers bypass cooling. This means that if the hose or filter become blocked, air will still cool the motor.

Producing a mere 57.8 dB(A) noise level at 3.5 feet, the Fein Turbo II is one of the quietest vacs available on the market today.

Depending on your requirements and the nature of materials you are working with, available filtering capabilities include:

standard 5 micron
optional 1 micron
optional .3 micron HEPA filters
The vac can be used wet or dry. There is a large selection of available accessories.

Includes
16' hose (1 1/4"dia.)
Adapter (hose to tool)
5 micron Filter Cloth
Model: 9-55-13
Auto Start: Yes
Watts: 1050
Static water lift: 90 inches
Air flow: 116 cfm
Net Weight: 28.6 lbs
Power Cord Length: 16 ft.
Hose length: 16 ft.
Capacity dry: 9 gallons
Capacity wet: 6.8 gallons
Dimensions: 24 7/8" * 16 1/2"

[Stephan]

I was wondering if any of you uses 110V power tools through an inverter off their 12V system. I'm living on a can, and would like to use my little trim router and a Fein Multimaster knockoff from Harbor Freight without having to find a dock sometimes. The starting current on those babies is likely way higher than their continuous draw, so I know I have to get some serious device.

Also, the Admiral would LOVE to be able to run a hair dryer (even if only for 5 minutes on 'low'). I got three batteries so I think I ought to be able to handle that on the supply side. Any advice?

[Ariel 109]

I've run a Porter-Cable trim saw off a 12V inverted and a power planer. You should be able to run a small router or detail sander. How long you can run them is the question. Hair Dryer? It all depends on the wattage of your inverter and batteries.

[Stephan]

I bought and tried:

http://www.harborfreight.com/750-watt-continuous-1500-watt-peak-power-inverter-66817.html

That thing, even though cheap, didn't seem to have any trouble running my trim router and multi tool. Even the hair dryer worked - I didn't run it long though to keep my batteries charged. I think I have plenty reserves though since my fridge is currently not running, which usually was the biggest consumer.

[ebb]

not bad! Better than $440 bucks.

When looking at inverters do we need to know how much juice THEY use?
I mean are there other inverters that are more efficient.... if that's the term?
But cost more.

Harbor Freight.
hmmmmmmm, must be a marine outfit.:rolleyes:

[Stephan]

Yes Ebb, your concern is valid.
1. The power draw on idle - I haven't measured it yet but it's probably wise to keep this thing off the batteries when not needed. It might also emit some RF noise. And I'd rather keep an eye on it when it's connected in case it starts burning or something.
2. Power loss when working - The specs state 'up to 85% efficiency' which is of course a pretty idiotic statement since that would also cover 0% efficiency. This inverter is probably not the best one on the block when it comes to efficiency. That said, it didn't even get warm when I ran my power tool (and the tool got *plenty* hot). Which is a good indication that it's efficiency ought to be around the stated 80%-85%. For my intended use it's working well, and cheap.

[epiphany]

A month or so ago I bought a Rockwell Sonicrafter (http://rockwelltools.com/sonicrafter.htm), and can say that I am both impressed by and pleased with this tool. Makes cutting tabbing, plunge cutting, and cutting in tight spaces really, really easy, and puts out minimal dust. Took a few minutes to figure out how to best use it, but wasn't hard to do so - fairly intuitive. It does heat up pretty good when used for several minutes at a time (like on longer cuts), so be careful when changing blades or you can get smooth fingertips. ;)

http://rockwelltools.com/images/products/RK5101K.jpg

[ebb]

[Hope Kurt doesn't mind my piggybacking on the subject here.]

The Rockford SoniCrafter looks like a TRUE CLONE of the Fein at about half the price -
with all the accessories and a VACUUM PICKUP available.
While these tools don't produce much airborne dust, there are jobs that require no dust.

When you punch in the above title you get a million Harbor Freight hits.
Harbor Freight has at least three versions of a multi-function tool for between $30 and $70.
Guys complain the attachments are poor quality (blades) and none have a vac pickup.
They are all made by the 6 Foot Power Cord factory in China, and sold under the rubric 'Chicago'.
None have VARIBLE SPEED - single speed only.


My Multi-hundred Dollar Fein Multimaster has dial variable speed.
But we get shafted by the price of replacement accessories, altho the blades, by forum consensus, are the best available.
The hard edged tool case this multifunc comes in has exterior hinges on the bottom!
so that it will unbalance and tip over on any but a dead flat horizontal surface. Fancy case, not a clever design but will take the tool WITH an attachment.

Now the SoniCrafter has a soft bag. Great idea. But one guy said it's too small to put the tool away with a blade attached, so he said. This is a huge gripe with me. Tools that make you remove the accessory to put it away are thoughtless and stupid.

Most of these tool cases are just big enough for the tool, have hardly room for a stiff kinky cord and never enough room for the compliment of attachments.
Just bought a very high-end Bosch lithium drill ($100 cash back) that has NO place inside for their own plastic index of drill bits. For crying out loud! I think it's this kind of thing that has fried my brain.
The midget onehanded Porter Cable belt sander comes in a bowling-ball style case and has no storage for the belts. What's the matter with these jerks?
My little cordless Hitachi hammer drill lives in a hard case that also doesn't stand up on the nobbles at the opposite end of the case handle.
And every time the case is opened there is a jumble of bits in every corner.
You know why....? Because the lid molding doesn't match the tray compartments when closed!

The Dremet Multimax ($100) sized like the other oscillating multifunction tools has no vac attachment.
Another point to look at is number of oscillations per minute. The assumption is the more OPMs the smoother the tool does its thing. Fein says theirs vibrates at 21,000 OPMs. You'll find others at 10,000.

One other thing: my Fein multi is a LOUD tool. I don't know how others fair on that score.
I find it NASTY - to say the least. And will only use the tool when I absolutely have to. NOT often!

One guy said the CHEAP tools here are "OK for cutting pumpkins."
In some ways you get what you pay for.
In one case, the multi speed Fein Multimaster and expensive blades and number of nearly useless accessories like the tile degrouter, the concrete scraper, the nasty rasp thingy, the half round 'saw' blade, the hook and loop sanding grits that don't stay on the plate, the useless molding sanders - it's not a tool I reach for very often working on the boat, and definitely NOT worth the insulting $$$$$$$$.
The SoniCrafter like the Fein comes in various versions, each 'kit' more expensive the more accessories they toss in. It may be worth while to buy just the basic tool and add only the attachments you want.


Kurt,
I've read that the SoniCrafter (this may be true of other VARIABLE SPEED RO MULTIs)
can be cooled off by running them at high speed NO LOAD for 2 - 3 minutes.

[epiphany]

Interesting about the cool-down idea, Ebb - I will definitely try that & let y'all know how it works out.

The Sonicrafter I bought was a kit priced for $119 (the same one pictured above). It does have a hard case that can fit the tool with blade attached, and the case has lots of extra storage, so maybe they have been listening to the public about this.

So far I have used the half-round saw, straight saw with small teeth (wood & metal), and straight with big teeth (wood only). I did look online and found blades to be much cheaper than by buying them from the local Ace store. The Sonicrafter kit itself was *not* more expensive buying from Ace local instead of online, however, so it is worth looking local.

PS - Yes, noisy - earplugs are a must!

[Frenna]

On the subject of multi-tools, I recently bought the Dremel Multi-max for a carpentry job that required it. Used to have the variable speed Fein tool years ago, which was stolen from a job back when the meth addicts were routinely hitting construction sites. It was the only tool I did not replace since they were/are so damned expensive and I do not need them often. The Dremel version is available for $99.00 at any home depot. I was pleasantly surprised to find it was every bit as good as the fein, especially for cutting. And the blades are a fraction of the price. Includes variable speed, which is sort of a must, a 6' cord which is about 4' too short and a case which is almost worthless since it has so little room to stock supplies in. But running it, it does not feel as chintzy as the price would suggest. I would only pony up for a fein if I was using it in a constant-use production setting. Even then, it might be more cost effective to burn through dremels. The positive locking teeth on the blades is a big improvement over the old Fein, which would rotate during hard cutting. Perhaps they have upgraded that by now. For the money, I am very pleased with the Dremel. A good value.

[Tony G]

A month or so ago I bought a Rockwell Sonicrafter... Makes cutting tabbing, plunge cutting, and cutting in tight spaces really, really easy, and puts out minimal dust.

I'd like to see some proof of this claim;)

The angled head looks a tad bulky. Does the blade stick out far enough to 'reach' into tight spots? Any chance of a simulted action shot demonstrating how tight?

[epiphany]

I'll get you a shot or two soon. :)

The blade can be put on at many angles to the head - straight out, 90* to one side or the other, basically any approximate increment of say 30 degrees around a whole circle. So at say 90*, you can stuff it into about a 3-4" wide space and cut away, to the left or the right...

Also, it is good at flush cuts, so tabbing against the hull comes away very cleanly, leaving little to have to sand. That sort of thing...

[Tony G]

Thanks in advance for the shots, Kurt.

I wish I had one of those things a couple of years ago 'cuz that sort of thing is exactly the sort of thing that would have made a lot less of one thing and afforded me a little more of something else outta this whole thing.:) Ya know what I'm saying'?

[Jon]

I have read this entire thread through a couple of times and I'm having a little problem understanding ya'll's verdict on the Fein Multimaster. I saw an infomercial on this tool recently, was impressed and thought that it would be ideal for just about any project aboard or around my house so I went out today and bought one (I still have the receipt and I haven't opened it yet). Here's my problem. Sirocco is my first sailboat and I don't know "come here" or "sic 'em" when it comes to sailboat projects. I can't speak to projects like you guys can. After practically living on this site and the Plastic Classic site, I know that I don't have ya'll's knowledge about sailing, boats in general, repair, or even knowing what the hell I'm looking at, but, I'm not afraid to pick up a tool and get after a project as long as I have some kind of an idea of what it's supposed to look like, or be, or do, when I'm finished. I possess a very high mechanical aptitude but not a lot of experience. This tool almost seems to say - "Hold my beer and watch this...."

So, I have quite a bit of interior and laz sanding to take care of, I need to remove (as in CUT IT OUT) Sirocco's built in icebox, replace the space with dry storage and a nav table, open the engine bay a couple inches, remove a stubborn looking gasoline tank and sand the fiberglass or gelcoat in the "under" cockpit area, and that's just part of the idea I had for this tool. I also need to retile a section of a room in my house that houses my home's hot water tank and then there are all of the other little things that I can use the tool for. The guy I spoke with at the Woodcraft store told me I'd love the tool and really, since I'm not in the same league as Ebb and most of ya'll, I'm inclined to think that plopping down $435.00 for the full Monte Multimaster might not be a bad dollar spent.

So, am I wrong? Can I buy this tool, be well armed when I go after a boat or domestic project and not feel like I've been taken on the money side?

[Commander 147]

Jon

I believe the general theme here is that the Fien Multimaster is an excellent tool that excels at many tasks while working on these good old boats. And when I bought mine there was not another tool out there that would do the job as well. That however is no longer the case. The clones have arrived and some of them are very good tools for much less money. And we all know that there is a never ending list of things we need to spend money on for these old boats.

I would caution you if you decide to buy a clone instead of the original that you check it very closely. Read the online reviews of any tool you are contemplating and DO NOT get caught up in buying a clone that has the lowest price of all the models out there. There is a reason the tool is the cheapest and you will not like it.

Bottom line is with some well spent research time you can indeed buy a clone that will get the job done for less money than the Fein but you have to do your research.

[Commander227]

I have never once regretted buying "the best" when it comes to tools, but oh so often regretted buying the cheap stuff. Quality tools allow you to do quality work with the lowest frustration level. There is also quite a bit to be said about having the right tool for the job and that is often the only thing separating the pros from the weekend warrior. That being said...I've never tried one of these sonic buzz do-all thingies.
Mike
C227

[Jon]

As usual, you guys always give good advice. With me, as with nearly anyone else I suppose, money is an object and I positively hate spending money for stuff that doesn't work, that breaks or doesn't live up to my expectations. The so-called "savings" on a cheap tool or other item is forgotten rather quickly compared to the ire I easily feel when I shell out a second wad of cash for what I should have gotten in the first place. Having said that, i think I'll keep the Multimaster and see how many miles and projects I can squeeze out of it. Thanks for the advice guys.

[Stephan]

My reasoning with the multimaster tool is:
1. The $40 clone from Harbor freight is so cheap that I won't worry much if I either lose it, break it, rust it because of little use, or find it doesn't have all that much use after all.
2. It allows me to try what it will do (and what not).
3. If I find it is useful, and it holds up, I win. Cheap, useful tool!
4. If I find it is useful, but it starts falling apart, I buy the real thing, I win, too. Because for just $40 I got to try it and learned I want it.
5. If I find it useless, I lose just $40.

I'm at steps 1-2 at this time. Haven't used it all that much yet. I'll have to wait and see.

[Jon]

Stephan,

I'm not familiar with the $40 clone. What is it called and does it oscillate like the MM?

[ebb]

The Fein MultiMaster is the standard that all other "multifunction power tool" are measured.
Price: Often the first consideration. Fein is at the most expensive in the $30 to $300 range.

My 250Q Fein does have variable speed. A dial that slows OPM, Oscillations Per Minute down from 21.000.
At 21,000 you can not see the blade accessory move. There is almost no movement away from the work when the tool is pressed into it. OPM is a prime consideration in buying a clone.
FMM has a 2 amp motor.

The Fein tool, not under load or working produces 85 decibels (from the literature). That is LOUD.
Gets louder when working.

Ease of handling the power tool.
The Multimaster has a 16' cord. It is relative stiff and not easy to coil into the case. But you don't have to be super neat to get the case to close and latch. Metal latches, good.
Case layout is also good with ample room for accessories. This is a most unusual feature in a dedicated case.
The case has four little toes at the outer corners of its narrow bottom. It hardly ever keeps standing when you set it down.

The Fein is 9" around with the vacuum suction device. That's a bit much for many people to ergo as a one handed tool. It weighs about 3 3/4 to 4 pounds. That's also considerable. You don't have to force it though, the weight of the tool drives it. It is also 12" minimum long. This may limit apps in a boat.

Since you grasp the barrel, heat build up can be a problem. It forces you to rest the tool. This may be a good thing but it may also mean the tool is under powered. My Fein MM heated up on a tough job. Clones can get hot. Some just by running, according to forums.

Accessories (expensive): I'm not too interested in the handyman aspects. A grouting tool is something that won't get used. But I have read that it can be very useful removing old polysulfide from a teak deck.
I tried the 14 grit rasp on fiberglass and couldn't see its use.
The triangular sanding pad won't hold the hookandloop papers on if not kept completely flat. The paper works off at an angle. The profile attachments also are a problem in that the supplied paper rips on the forms when used.

By far the Multimaster does one job well that no other tool can and that is to cut STRAIGHT INTO a surface, like wood or fiberglass (but not metal) without prior prep. Point and Shoot.
Bi-metal E blades are straight or doglegged and have teeth at the front edge.
One thing you find out after the first flush of ownership is that the blades are expensive and only Fein blades will attach. GOTCHA!
There are copies in the market now, but everybody says the Fein are best.
And the Clamp and Pin method of attaching the blades to the tool gets my vote
since there isn't an allen wrench to find or get lost. All clones I've heard about use the extra tool. PITA.

Grade: I think we can grade these tools on a scale from handyman to professional.
One new Multimaster is being sold as Marine specific. To get the 'professional' status, imco, the Fein would have to cut metal. My test would be to trim off bolt and screw ends at the nut.
My 250Q won't.
A multifunction power tool won't get used often, like a cordless drill will.....
But when you need it, it's the only tool that will work. A bitter $300 plus pill.

It may be worth while, after you buy your throw away, to hold off until a CORDLESS multifunction arrives on the scene.
Maybe Bosch will come aboard with a just as strong - slimmer and lighter - 30 minute charge 18V lithium multi. Can't wait for THAT one!
SEE google
Bosch PS50-28 Cordless Max Multi-X-SurfTalk

[Stephan]

The constant speed version:

http://www.harborfreight.com/multifunction-power-tool-67256.html

The multi speed version:

http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/multifunction-tools/variable-speed-multifunction-power-tool-67537.html

It's loud, just like the Fein apparently. The replacement blades are not cheap, but way cheaper than the ones from Fein. Some people say the Fein blades are better, others say they are all bad, the Fein included. I can't say anything about the Fein, and haven't used mine enough to say if the blades are good or not. I don't have any standard to compare them with anyways.
You need, as Ebb says, the allen wrench to exchange the tool. The $40 one comes without a box. the $70 does. It has supposedly 19000 OPM, a little less than the Fein.
BTW, Harbor Freight, even though their stuff seems crudely made in China (naturally), gives lifetime replacement warranty on their hand tools. It doesn't say so on their web page, but in store they show posters with that claim. Might be worth enquiring if it applies to that tool
If you haven't used your Fein, why not buy the Harbor Freight thingy and compare them. You can return whichever you don't like...

[Stephan]

Unlike many people that have much more experience than me, and who I respect a lot for their advice, I don't always buy the best, most expensive tools. I learned some bad lessons, naturally, by being a cheapskate when it was a bad choice. Working with poor tools is awful, wasteful, annoying, even dangerous. However, on a boat I consider that a tool might get lost overboard, borrowed and never returned or rust in the humid environment, and I'm not one to carefully clean, oil and wrap everything after every job. I'm too messy. I'm not a craftsman by a long shot. I do my routing with a cheap handheld router, and it shows.
I have my share of real nice, made in USA tools, and I love them dearly. On the other hand, for rarely used or 'throw away' items I just go with what seems a reasonable cost/usefulness/lifetime expectation. Good tools are a pleasure to use, even for me. If the tool sits and rusts in some corner however, it's not a pleasure.

[ebb]

It happens. This tool that had so much promise didn't live up to it.

I hereby take back any implied recommendation for the PorterCable 371K Compact Belt Sander. See the earlier post (Pg 2) if interested.

[ebb]

Aeropress is a tool for making a great cup of coffee in a unique way.
It was invented by a Stanford professor (so....?) and is made by the Aerobie company who invented the ring frisbee.
That might be cause for caution BUT we can associate the drinking of the brew
with great pleasure and good times - and certainly a necessary ingredient for break fasting.
It's a great tool to have at hand during an Ariel rehab.

Look it up. It'll make this description easier to understand.
It's a plastic tube that has a screw on bottom piece that holds a smallish paper disk filter.
After loading the filter put into the tube a measure of 20 second espresso grind - using a wide-mouth funnel that comes with the kit.
Mine is electrically ground fresh in a loud and ancient Krupps, but the coffee could be brought aboard preground in an airtight container.

Put the tube on top of a coffee mug, pour in hot water. Stir with the paddle that also comes with the kit. Then take the plunger which has a rubber boot on the end that fits tightly in the tube
and push the mixture slowly to the bottom.
The plunger also pushes a short collumn of air on top of the mix through the filter along with a the brew.
Hence the name Aeropress. Remove from the cup.
Unscrew the filter holder and push out a semi-dry puck of coffee grounds.
Cheapskate here peels off the paper filter and uses it again and again.
The kit comes with a stack of 350 filter papers.
Just used the last filter after four years of two-plunge mornings.

The company hype uses the word 'espresso' to describe the brew its gizmo makes.
It is as close perhaps as any $30 plastic coffee maker can come, BUT
only a talented barista on a $10,000 machine can make a better cappachino.
Using only esspresso grind coffee in this Aeropress is as close as any purista can hope for a really GOOD cup of fresh coffee to bring up the sun in the cockpit of the A/C.
You can take my word for it.....Scandanavians drink more coffee per capita than anyone else on the planet.....
believe me, there's roasted bean in me blood.

Because there is no percolating or soaking of the grounds - the water and coffee quickly strirred and pressed thru the filter - this brew is NON-ACIDIC and gets the best out of whatever roast you use. I do like intense concentrated coffee mellowed with a dollop of moojuice. Add hot water to taste for a regular cup of coffee.
It's certainly cheaper to press your own coffee. And you can buy and support organic, family farmed co-op beans. Hope so anyway.

There are parts and pieces to this kit. A lot of moves to make a cupa.
imco It's worth a try aboard the boat, but if it doesn't fly there, no better coffee can be made in your kitchen at home or office.

On the Aerobie site there is a page detailing that the plastic they make the press from is phthalate and bisphenol free.
My original antique model is made with polycarbonate, can't mistake clear plastic with a blue tinge to it. May have been rearranging my endocrine system these past years - there have been signs. But the coffee has been delicious, dahling!
New Aeropress models are made with another plastic "co-polymer". ??? What BS they want us to swallow, at least the company is conscious!

The rubber seal at the bottom of the plunger finally gave out. Couldn't make a tight enough seal to get a column of air to go through the grounds. Called up Aerobie, they sent me two replacements for $5, NO shipping. Can't beat that.
I'm no jingo, but this doodah isn't glass French press or chrome Italian steam or emameled camp percolator
- it was conceived right here in the good ole Western hemispere and it's all plastic, fits our life-style.
Time to move on, second cupa gone......
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
(10/2012)Will add a new post below in the que. It has been awhile. A s.s metal disk has finally made it to the market!
Able DISK-FINE Filter for AeroPress from Prima-coffee.com

[ebb]

Jerry on another thread asks whether
the Aeropress makes non-bitter coffee?

Purely by chance I ran into Karlc's tastey essay:D on the subject at
google> How do I make coffee less bitter?
askville.amazon.com>Food & Drink > Drink

He covers all the points. And there is a bean learning curve.
Maybe it's like grilling or bread-making: quality ingredients, temperature, gear, experience, luck. And our own expectation.
But his article makes clear the mysterious rhumb we must take from bean to brew.

Karlc also recommends the unique Aeropress as our best bet.
Because it makes only one or two cups, imco it is perfect for a small boat galley
if you insist on enjoyable coffee. The gizmo has its own but simple learning curve.

Here is another site:
google> Aero Press Brew instructions from Sweet Maria's
www.sweetmarias.com/aeropress/aeropress_instructions.php
Good PHOTOS showing the jig. Not as complicated as they instruct. You'll find your own method once you get into the swing of it.
Aeropress recommended 170/180 degree water makes too thin a brew for me - but it does make my beans less bitter. Bitter is directly related to beans, roast, grind, and how much time the grounds are kept in the hot water. Aeropress just naturally makes less bitter brew.
However, I use a heaping measure of whole beans and grind them to an almost espresso powder for ONE cup. Milk takes the edge off bitter.
If boiling is 212 degrees, I guess the temp is around 200 by the time it gets poured in for pressing. Dump in the hot water ignoring the blue printing on the sides - never understood them anyway. Wet the plunger and slowly push it down to the bottom. Unscrew the filter holder - peel off the filter - push out the grounds puck - and rinse the pieces. I reuse the paper filters until they are almost black and starting to frey. Have to rinse them and set aside to dry - which is another step. Always press through a dry filter.

Coffee house reputations are built on non-bitter brew (and a decent pastry).
A beautiful chocolaty smooth brew is like the search for the wholly grail. Or that distant island paradise.
It's all about how to get there - if it is there!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
Later edit, 7/3/11. Been focused on 'less bitter brew' since Jerry mentioned it.
Bitter is definitely related to water temperature. And I've been doing some 'tests' while making the morning coffee.
Happen to have a little GoodCook meat thermometer that sits in a pencil-like tube with pocket clip -
in case we want to carry it around in a shirt pocket. It has a small dial with easy to read numbers on it.
It's accurate because when I get it out to use, it's already reading ambient temp.
Slip it into the waterboiler's pour spout while the water is heating.
Not letting it boil and bringing it up to no more than 190 degrees makes non-bitter brew with my beans. Brewers state that water can be anywhere from 160 to 180.
Otherwise, by the time my Aeropress is in the cup and raised for the morning's first glorious sip it has lost its steamy aroma. So I have to nuke it 30 secs.
But that's yor science.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
Later edit. 7/22/11. This coffee press uses espresso grind to make brew. The gizmo isn't making espresso that you get at a coffee bar. But let's say it's more like espresso when just a little water is used than a good cup of coffee made with coarse grind. (In a french press, eg)
Making a good cuppa is definitely a luxury. I can't extend that to having an expensive onboard grinder.
Haven't found a 12V grinder yet, anyway. There are hand grinders....
Have to bring pre-ground coffee. This is where the morning ritual starts getting expensive. Unless I do my own grinding and vacuum packing I'm stuck with what the marketplace has to offer. Here is an online where I will start researching - seems to have a decent rep AND, for starters, has a 8oz can of LAVAZZA espresso-grind for $7 which is cheap compared to other sites. Cheaper by the case. I'll get a can and experiment. We'll see how bitter Arabica can get. (Nothing about 'fair trade, hand picked, shade grown, or organic' in the description.)
www.espressozone.com
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
an even later edit, 7/31/11
There is a little KYOCERA CERAMIC BURR (no rust, no rust taste) HAND GRINDER that'll grind fine for the Aeropress or coarse for the Frenchpress. Just had it recommended by a trusted source and the internet immediately brought up an aeropress forum - some of whom liked it too. Haven't tried it yet. Compact. Hold in one hand, turn the crank with the other.
There seems to be a couple $45 models, one slender and one squat. We want the one with the longer handle. Am of the opinion that the better cuppa is obviously freshly ground.
It's a match to the Aero as it is designed to grind two scoop double shot loads. Two cappuccinos or two large cups regular.
Very good regular strength joe is made by simply adding more hot water to taste.
Add the hot water after aeropressing or, better, add extra water befor putting the plunger in the tube (once commited the plunger cannot be withdrawn without sucking the filter up into the column and making a royal mess) and press through the grounds.
Maybe you can Frenchpress coarse grind in the Aero - never tried it, never will. The finer the better, because cheapskate thinks he's getting more out of his bean the smaller he grinds it.

OK, OK, to close this loop, now we really want an efficient water boiler!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________

[Endless edit 8/29/11.
Aeropress is becoming more popular!
There's evena bunch of aussies on UTube purporting to show how to use this efficient brewer upside down. Waste of time. Here is a good video that makes a great intro to this brew tool's plunge into fame: http://aeropresso.com
The video there explains its attributes, which you have to admit are considerable for this ridiculous little plastic jig.
Phoned Aerobie twice today and talked with two gals who are completely NOT interested, for instance, in Coava from Portland OR which is a s.s. screen we can use instead of paper filters. Fantastic! Nor in the Euro hooplah around its product
There is the World Aeropress Championships - 3 years going strong - and this October takes place in Venice. First prize is the Bronze Piston trophy! AWLRAHHTE!
COAVA is a coffee bar in Portland.
They have a store where we can buy the s.s. filterscreen. $15. 1-503-894-8134. Be patient! http://coava.myshopify.com

More research on the Kyocera ceramic grinder reveals that a convincing and difficult upgrade shown in a long video for the CM50CF (orphanespresso.com) persuades me that the more expensive, better made, and more slender Kyocera CM45CF will out perform and custom grind to exactly what we want. Aimed at the travel market.....
and the grinder cup into which the beans are put has a cap, a cover, that the slightly larger one doesn't have. imco It is absolutely a requirement for two handed grinding. Unless your breakfasts are always tied up in the marina, don't get the topless CM50CF. The CM45CF is not in any stores & only one internet vendor in the US. I don't do Amazon or eBay.
We are sadly behind what's hip: I dreamt I saw the PaloAlto Aeropress, the new Portland made Coava s.s. filter, the Japanese CM45CF grinder, and two fat red silicone rubber demitasse cupnsaucer sets in a truly global trekking kit.
orphanespresso has the two fat combokit with another brand ceramic all stainless grinder but not with the upgrade disk. NOR with a mug to take a receive the pressing! Point is we can skinny the kit by not having to take paper filters, nor the bulky funnel, as we can load the press directly from the grinder. But we do need something strong to press into. What we need now is a nice bag or rollup to keep it all together. {'Ah dreamed ah saw a joe kit last nite, as fine as it cud be.....')
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________
Apologies to Ben and Mike - who have posted just below here - for all the extra bruhaha I have added in edits that wasn't here when they first posted!

[Ariel 109]

Ebb,

I sometimes go to sleep thinking about how great it's going to be when I wake up and have a cup of coffee in the morning. Maybe I'll ask for one of these Aeropress machines for my birthday. My old expresso maker's coffee has been pretty rank lately.

Ben

[mbd]

I've always used a French Press when camping or on the boat. Easy to prepare and easy to clean. I always thought it was a better tasting and smoother cup of coffee than any typical brewed cup. I'd be curious to try the Aeropress, because it sounds very similar, but without the grittiness since it's filtered.

[Commander 147]

I was paging through a catalog and look what I found.

http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/orderstatus/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_slot.html

scroll down and there is the top mounted bearing on the slot cutter.

[ebb]

How did I miss it? Have the catalog right here....er somewhere under these pile of paper.

But it cuts a slot only 3/8" deep...
which I'm guessing won't accommodate the screws of a normal fill fitting - will it?
The fasteners might be outside the donut-ring (in the balsa core), or partially which would make it dicey to bore fastener holes.
Could oversize the screw holes if they were thru balsa, fill them as we have dissussed here, and redrill for the exact screw size.

I like your 1/2"-9/16' undercut, what ever you're getting with your method.



So IF there was no choice and you choose this 1/4" shank MCLS slot cutter, would the deed be done this way?
The main hole bored thru the deck to size with a holesaw.
Thru-drill oversize holes for the fasteners, where they have to be..
Evacuate main hole with slotter. The top bearing would ride on the thick top glass layer of the deck composite.
Block off all the holes from underneath with cardboard, seranwrap and sticky tape.
Pack with mishmash. Fill scew-holes with liquid epoxy. Cure.
Rebore to EXACT size of the fitting and screws.
Chamfer edges of all holes to create caulk rings.
A bit wastefull of epoxy, but you'd get an absolute - total isolation from the balsa core.
And no distortion in the composite when thru-bolting.
Minimal backing block needed.

If you used the holesaw with a pre-bored guide-block, the way you'd bore a hole without the center drillbit.....
just the undercut ring in the deck could be packed if your filler was stiff enough.
After cure use the same guide-block with the holesaw to clean up the hole, rather than re-boring thru solid stuff.

[Commander 147]

Ebb

When I did mine I was lucky because my router bit reached back far enough to include the screws. I will not be so lucky on the thru deck fitting for the chain to go into the chain locker. Some of those holes are 3/8" from the edge of the main hole of the fitting and some are 1/2" (on the ends of the oval) from the main hole. So for that fitting I will probably do as follows.

1.) Drill the main hole thru the deck

2.) Drill thru the top skin only for the oversized screw holes around the perimeter.

3.) Use a forstener bit to clean out the balsa down to the top of the bottom skin at the oversized screw hole locations.

4.) Route out the balsa around the perimeter of the large hole with the slot cutter.

5.) Tape the bottom of the large hole so when I pack in the mishmash into the edge of the large hole ( I used a cardboard tube on the one I already did covered with celophane tape to pack in from the edge) it does not drop below.

6.) Pack the mishmash into the edge of the large hole and the oversized screw holes.

7.) Allow to cure and sand the top flat and clean up excess in the center hole.

8.) Put my thru deck fitting in place and drill the screw holes thru the deck.

9.) Counter sink the screw holes and put a chamfer on the edge of the large hole to create caulk rings around the openings.

So pretty much the same method you listed with a few minor deviations. I am curious why you would use clear resin in your screw holes. Am I missing something here? I know I still have a lot to learn when it comes to working with epoxy.

[ebb]

Jerry,
well, the screw holes are small so that adding fiber to the mix would not be easy. Milled glass fiber in small quantities. Also in our case with old balsa core I'd want the liquid to run everywhere it can in there, soak in. But I have drilled holes in the composite and had no soak in. Filled with liquid and the level didn't move.

My paranoid regimen on all epoxy work is to wet out anything that can be wet out befor I put in/on thickened stuff. I do it with lay up as well.

If I don't want it wet, I'll still wet out first with plain epoxy to prime the surface, but soak it up or in certain cases rub the surface almost dry with paper towels, before adding the thickened mix, or going on any next step.
The batch is thickened for the job of work, but some of the batch A / B liquid mix is set aside to tailor the thickened mix if needed
- but also to brush on the work as a prime. Filling, filleting, even surfacing with fairing compound, I wet out first, and with the same batch.
That way I feel the epoxy is grabbing some tooth.*
This step is critical for success using laminating epoxy in these extended ways.
Even so, if we have to take apart the work for some reason we'll find some spaces anyway. They probably come from 'too much' soaking in. Or inadequate priming! If there is true encapsulation, a few small spaces isn't a big deal. But for me the main point is to get true wet out soak in, whatever!

If the fastener holes are close to the hole for the body of the fitting, I can see boring the big one first and undercutting with the MLCS slotter
- then filling the ring. After cure, clean up the hole. Then do the oversize holes for the screws.

There might be a problem in drilling those holes straight if - now having that hard ring of glass and plastic in there
- the jobber bit for the fasteners might get pulled off square if it's trying to bore a hole thru half frp and half balsa.
Even if we sacrifice a forstner bit for the job and use a guide block.
Imco, before the main hole is bored, first do the oversize screw holes. Drill them and fill them and let em cure.
- then do the main hole to spec.
The fasteners will be isolated from the core even if the undercutting slotter nicks the sides or removes even more, of the filled oversize plugs. It would be ideal to have an epoxy donut inside that was wide enough for the whole flange of the fitting. Doesn't look like that can happen.

The final deal is that the fitting is totally isolated and highly stablized. And could possibly be installed without a backing block! Now, thinking about it, I can see fatter oversize epoxy plugs for the screws than other guys might - the screws passing through tubes of epoxy.
It IS the best method to stop the bore for oversize plug before it goes thru the inner skin.
Otherwise, for strength you will have to include a structural backing block for the fasteners. This way your undercut ring is consistant with the concept. And I'm going to steal it!
So, Jerry, this time of year, we might be quaffing an ale in a pub while rehashing remodel methodologies. Cheers!
And then a tour of yer boat! Good to have your photos!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
* Wondering if there is a problem here for the CASUAL READER: if these posts are confusing:
We're talking about problem solving using 2-part laminating epoxy. Laminating epoxy is a thin syrup-like material used mainly for fiberglass lay-up. It is THE main ingredient in a ClassicPlastic rebuild. By adding various dry things to it, it can be thickened and changed into various kinds of paste and goops. It can also be thinned.
There is another form of 2-part epoxy that is known as structural epoxy. Not meant to have any other material added to it.
Laminating epoxy is a very versatile and somewhat forgiving building material and, for the most part, rewarding for DIYs to work with
:D- as we all end up experts!

[ebb]

http://prima-coffee.com/catalog/able-disk-fine-filter-aeropress

Bet some people think I've hi-jacked the Tools That Work & Etc thread with this coffee-maker rant. Figured that ETC left the door open!
My old PORTABLE, $26, java-maker, the plastic syringe, Aeropress, is still going strong after I forget how many years. Had to get a new rubber plunger.
Sometimes I stop drinking coffee - but I always come back.

This disk ($12.50) takes the place of paper filters. The stack of paper disks (350 for about $.01 ea) in their holder are a major part of our coffee making kit, eventually become waste. My morning regimen included rinsing paper filters after use and drying them on the bottom of upturned water glasses to reuse the next day. Cheapskate environmentalist.
This stainless filter came about by popular demand - the makers of the AeroPress were not interested in offering an alternative to paper.
Used this metal disk filter for a couple weeks now and it is perfect - makes almost perfect coffee (at 190degrees.)
You have to learn to use it. It's slower than pushing coffee and hot air thru paper. Patience, brother....

It IS perfect for the inverted Aeropress method of pressing that translates more of the oils and bloom - that fanatics insist is the only way - to the cup. The inverted method puts the aromas and oils at the bottom of the squeeze - right at the filter - where the good stuff is first to come thru when you invert it over your mug to do the press. Quite logical, really. You get instructions printed on a card with your new s.s.disk to perform the reverse method. Reads like a botony experiment!
The stainless filter doesn't remove flavors like the paper seems to.
Sometimes the bottom of the cup ends up with some visible fines in it - but they are so fine that (my) tongue can't feel them. Down the hatch!
The first "celebrated" stainless disk on the market had larger holes and produced a turkish chew.

This is the one.

Don't make my coffee inverted - normal makes me a contrary snob.
This is a better brew, for sure. I'm a two cuppa. Sometimes later in the day I find my second cup
untouched & forgotten in the microwave - obviously the one richer cup by the new disk seized the day!

In My Considered Opinion you cannot make a better tasting cup of coffee in your galley by any other method. Even with paper!
This new, by popular demand, Able Disk Fine is paper thin. Be interesting to see how long it lasts.
As we might expect, when you go to the Q&A page on the Aerobie site, they insist using their paper makes better coffee. What can they say?
Purists argue that filtering thru paper makes coffee flavored tea. Ebb knows his cuppa is more robust and tastey using the new filter.
If the metal filter lasts in the long run, it will reduce the portable kit, making it more compact. The paper has no pedigree (do you know where your paper has been?), it could contain manufacturing residues, and it represents a waste cost for every cup that doesn't have to be part of the ritual. It is a smart upgrade for the Aeropress. [Right! Do you know where your stainless has been?]

On site Prima flogs an 18k gold plated coarse disk for $50.
Has to be a popular product for this kind of tackle !
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
OK, later EDIT.
What alloy are the Able stainless steel etched (not wire mesh) disks made from? 316? I went to their relatively new site. They do not say - and I will say - that for real purists, and for anybody who swallows - what and how your personal coffee is made isn't something that can be glossed over.
You want to know if you are drinking dioxins & furans when you filter your coffee with paper.
You want to know if the stainless filter disk is food grade. I did see "laboratory grade" mentioned - but not on the Able site.
I obviously think - because I'm primed to think - that if important information is missing, that is a deliberate form of DECEPTION. The metal disks may be made in the US, but the metal roll the disks are made from may come from China, eg. Alloy stainless steel (even labeled 316) sheet made from recycled metals can be infused with poisonous rare metals, that can invert the immune system. Suspect are the paper disks that come with your new Aeropress, if they are specifically silent about the filter. Paper is notorious for carcinogens hidden in it. Makers of food related products have to be totally transparent - if they are not, then they are not.
On site Aerobie talks about materials used to make their product. BPH & polycarbonate are mentioned and pthalates are not found in tests done on the coffee their coffee making syringe produces. Were the tests any damn good?
Their very white paper filters are not discussed. Come Monday I'm calling the manufacturers.

[mbd]

Welp, I finally got the Aero Press and Capt. Ebb is right on as usual - it does indeed make a tasty and smooth cup-o-joe! You get the smoothness of a French press without the grit. Still using the paper filter though. One of the nifty things I like is that you simply "pop" the grinds (along with the filter) out into trash after pressing, then rinse the unit. No muss no fuss. I'd hate to have to dig the metal filter out of the trash and clean it. I guess I'm a product of this culture of convenience...

[ebb]

Aeropress takes years of practice....
From coffee roast & apolitical bean selection, number of beans per scoop,
seconds of grind, getting it all out of the grinder, into the chamber, loading
it with correct ounces and perfect temperature sweet water, number of
paddle strokes, how many seconds of soak? too long and the grounds stay
wet.... yeah, right, just kidding.

The morning coffee ritual with the device does require a number of steps.
Do the second part next to the sink, so that rinsing the stainless strainer
is but a deft pirouette between extraction, twisting the retainer cap (which,
if the plunge has been finessed satisfactorily, will produce a puck of nearly
dry coffee grounds... that releases the disk into the cap as it's twisted off.
About 20% of the time I'll get it right.
Does require quick handling because the cap is still pretty hot when removing.
Did I plunge with aplomb? If the grounds are wet the disk sticks to the puck.
Like I say, it takes awhile to train yourself to this tool...unless you're a born
natural barista.

Bought a new press from Aerobie. Can now get the Able filter from them.
(New Ables have a very easy plunge and allow a bit of fines to settle in your
cup. Personally don't mind. But paper filters give you completely clean brew
with zero sediment.) All other parts are available as well.
Also got a new S-Filter ('S' stands for micro-wire screen) made by Kaffeologie..
This filter has a frame around the screen which makes it thicker than the laser
cut Able. Couldn't make it work, too thick to get the cap to lock on to the
chamber.
To get room for the thicker filter, I was going to fiddle with a cap and try
filing the lands down a bit (looks simple enough) but never got round to it...
The new Aeropress is gorgeous. You'd expect changes. Except for graphics
and a beautiful job of molding, all old and new parts are interchangeable.
Me? still using my ole friend.

Used up two stainless Able filters. Didn't wear them out, but krinkled the disks
into stars, eventually the slight bends became too numerous to seal the cap,
allowing grounds to escape through.
My original cap has a belly in it. Put a metal disk in it, apply lots of pressure for
lots of mornings and the disk ends up with radiating bend rays . It wasn't
until I saw the new dead-flat caps that I realized the old one had bellied out
from morning resistance exercises. It wasn't designed that way.
I think the early Able's had finer holes, too.
But heat and pressure had altered the cap and made it bulge.
Extra pressure came from reusing the paper filters, which would be rinsed
and dried on the bottoms of tumblers. The darker a filter became the more
exercise to push thru a cuppa. Couldn't bear tossing an almost white one away
....so stainless really works for me.
Ordered a very reasonably priced replacement stack of filters. Never used 'em.

Aerobie recently sent a flyer advertising a new addition to the portability aspect
of the Press. This is a stainless 'cup' that is large enough to pack the whole
kaboodle and all its parts inside. Assuming that does not include the holder and
paper filters, or any ground coffee. Sent an email, never heard back, asking
what kind of stainless the cup was made out of.* Good idea for the boat. :D
.................................................. .................................................. ..................
Later EDIT: Bought extra caps that hold the paper or stainless filter disks.
It is for sure that the grid is molded totally flat when new. The new easy
Able disk that allows very fine sediments through, as said, requires minimum
pressure to make coffee. Only a couple months old the stainless disk is now
collecting a number of minor radiating bends. A straight-edge across the grid
of the cap tells that a permanent bulge is being made. It won't matter when
using paper filters. But it now appears that a permanent stainless replacement
cannot be depended upon, because long term use of the metal filter eventally
creates so many bends it will let grounds through.

Later edit: 3 years of daily mug of finely ground, the Able s.s filter has not
gotten 'starred' any worse. I'm more gentle in my plunging, it's all automatic,
there is a tiny amount of sediment that is so fine that, except for it collecting in
the bottom it almost is in solution. Like this fine 'dusting' on the tongue at the
end of a perfect cup of organic Pacific Rim joe.:cool:

.................................................. .................................................. ..................
*The dedicated stainless steel cup may have been double-sided to keep liquid
hot. Seem to remember a reviewer complained that the container should
have had a top, or lid. The price was around $20. Can't find it on the net....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GRIND YER OWN AWAY FROM HOME
Later even again: Just acquired JavaPresseCoffeeCompany's Manual Burr
CoffeeGrinder. Looks like a totally uneventful tube "Built with Brushed Stainless
Steel that illuminates any environment", until we place the crank on top. Tube is
actually three pieces that fit 'seamlessly' together. 7 1/2" long, and 1 7/8" D --
slips snuggly into the AeroPress plunger. Meant to pack along on global jaunts.
$24 from the Company, $30 from amazon.

[ebb]

First attracted to this screw driver because it has a #3 Philips.

My other 4-in-1 bit drivers, just couldn't take it any longer!

These might be the multibit drivers that were looking for me!!

MAKING CONNECTIONS
Megapro 151SS has a stainless steel shank, bright yellow
nylon handle with tiny 0.10" (like embedded #6 bird shot)
molded-in handicap traction nibs that are a bit abrasive,
a marvelous pull-out carousel with 7 nickel-infused double-
end bits* that sucks back into its hollow handle as if there is a
vacuum. Handle ends are navy blue and revolve independent
of the body so you can turn the driver and bear down or guide it
at the same time. It's 8.75" long with large handful of solid
cylindrlcal knobbly yellow grip. So, not all that much 'stainless',
per se, but on the grip you can't miss MADE IN THE USA

Could be 'assembled in the USA' -- hope we can mostly be assured
that this clever and innovative tool is made with... pride. This is a
Canadian firm from B.C. that makes only innovative screw-drivers.
Don't know that 'Made In Canada' wouldn't be just as convincing.
It is in all aspects precisely engineered. Nothing wiggles, all tight.
Driver does not ratchet. Bought two, one for a gift.

Going to keep one onboard and one at home!

Unique 2" bits are 'Electroless Nickel Plated ENP Double End':
One slot 4-6 -- Two Phillips 0-3 and 1-2 --
Two Robertson square 0-3 and 1-2 --
Two Torx star 10-15 and 20-25.
Spec 1/4"x2" HexShankDoubleEndBits, with a noticeable tiny mid
shank 'spring ball' that holds bit in the shank. Under a loupe, you
can just make-out the CNC tracks that transform the tool steel rod
into their precise form. These are the only ENP bits offered by the
Company. Allen hex from 3/32 to 1/4" and 2.00 to 6.00mm in S2
steel are available. Some anti-theft two-prong spanner bits also
offered. 1/4" & 3/8" socket adapters to drive nuts w/ yr own sockets.
There's much more.
When you locate them, www.megapro.net - find their 16pg catalog.

*Bits are Rockwell 59-62: S2. Can't do that with 300 alloys. Easily
remove from the pull-out storage, but need extra force snapping
them back into their holsters. Weighs 7.9oz.


https://www.techtoolsupply.com/ lists more than 100 Megapro
double bits. Also stock many of their drivers. Two or three are also
'yellow handle' -- to get SS version: 151SS .

Driver from Specialized Products. $24.80 http://www.specialized.net/
This outfit is located in Southlake Texas. Two 151SS sub-total at
$49.60. Freight added $13.55. They also charged me $4.03 sales tax.
TOTAL: $67.18. $33.60 each. Still cheaper than amazon or ebay.
They stock no Megapro bits.

What's extra nice? Easy to find yellow handle in the tool bag!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
info on the enigmatic Frearson


MEGAPRO RATCHET DRIVERS (toward a more complete kit)

{currently amazon has wrong description & comments on this driver}:
Megapro Ratcheting Driver 211R2C36RD 13-in-01 Red is the
only ratchet aye can find that comes with 2" double-end bits.
Same length as above, almost 9", but a more usual and much more
comfortable handle in a handsome tapered red nylon and black
rubber anti-slip grip. No stainless.
Easy and smooth left-lock-right ratchet collar has inside a patent
-pending: ZAD 8 Zinc Alloy Solid Core precision 28-tooth design
(make of that what you will). Revolving palm end with a 6-12
slot-Philips-square-Torx selection of those clever 2" bits in cheerful
and patented carousel storage. 7.8oz. Made in Canada.
This Megapro could be uograded by the maker to a s.s. shaft and
nickel-plate bits. It would then get my vote as the best looking and
most talented driver you ever had the pleasure to hold in your hand.


> 171BK/RD-R 7-in-1 Megapro Ratcheting Compact S.S. <
Good-looking Orange/Black tapered handle - significantly smaller
and lighter. Same left-lock-right smooth turning ratchet in the collar.
Known as 'insert bits', and harder yet less brittle 'impact bits', they
are standard hex 1". Magnetic shaft accepts any 1/4" hex-end
from your collection, including impact and 2" power-bits.
Stainless shaft: 6 normal 1" slot-Philips-square bits in carousel. 7.25".
6.4oz. USA. warning: don't put this driver down near the Compass!
Not included in the Catalog. Choose this driver and personal hoard
of 1" bits for your cruiser.

211R1C36RD 12-1" insert bits, Ratcheting Automotive*, S.S.
Big Brother Red/Black taper handle. 9.25" L. 9.2oz W. 3oz heavier
than Compact. 6 Torx, 2 Slot, 1 Square, 3 Philips.


MEGAPRO CATALOG tells the company's tale.
Their distribution system is a total mess. They depend on venders
who do not stock the complete product line, and have their own
unhelpful and arbitrary display systems. The only way is to study
the catalog and then blindly rummage online venders.

MY read of the Megapro catalog is that there is no clear origin for
many products. Krayola-colored drivers with the harsh embossed
tubular grips originate in US. Red/Black ratchet taper drivers with
"rubberized cushion grip handle" are said to be made in Canada...
The phone is brightly answered in Canada, US address is a mail
service. Given the number of foreign patents, this company may
be another global distribution shell -- always suspicious.
"All bits - S2 industrial grade steel. Made in Taiwan". Industrial?
Unfortunately, industrial is a China red flag word. Say, tool steel.
Imco, any of their products can be made anywhere: MEGAPRO,
registered trademark of Winsure Enterprises Corp. (Win Sure is an
automotive repair garage in Oregon.) www.megapro.net/


There is a vast array of insert bits, a few made in Germany, most
made in Taiwan, probably all major brands. Irwin on web: good
info, their bits are labeled well. Aye look for slots and Frearson
because both are still found on bronze screws. Irwin has the only
full eight pc SLOT set (found on zoro.com). Irwin also has a single
Frearson #2 (only need the one for most Frearson heads) that
looks better made than others that pop up.
**RESEARCH Insert Bits-Fastener Drive-Tools-IRWIN TOOLS.
www.irwin.com/tools/browse/fastener-drive/inserrt-bits/

(This post keeps growing, sorry. Frearson, Reed & Prince, drive
heads are found on bronze screws (don't know why***). You can
place a screw on your driver and the tight deep cross in the head
will hold the screw on the bit. Great when screwing planks on a
hull! Philips heads are the opposite, the incise has rounded
corners and is designed to 'cam out', didn't know this when aye
began looking into this subject. Always have problems with
Philips heads turning out of the screw. Wrong size - Worn bit
- no, it's designed that way! Why in hell is it designed that way??)
***Bronze screws are often on display. Frearson driver fits insert
cross very tight, so you won't cam out and spoil the $$jewelry.


To collect and organize the 1" 1/4-hex bits, now have 3 'bags'.
Enkay 3030 ScrewBitHolder poly bag, Red. You get two 33
hole pliable plastic blocks - 2.75"Lx2"Wx11/16"H - simply push hex
ends in. $8. Easy in / easy out. Nicely molded, China. 'Poly bag'
is the package. Store bits open, or use the second 'block' as a cap
and rubber band together, they'll make it to Mars and back.

To fill out your double end bit collection, haven't found a simple
holder for them. Nor a soft 'canvas' case for all bits and 3 drivers.
Plus a palm ratchet, extra long bits, sockets, flat ratchet wrench.
Simple waxed fabric maybe, with industrial hook-&-loop closure.
BOAT TOOL CASES SHOULD BE SOFT SIDE, conformable.
The 2" double bit organizer I'm looking for is similar to the 3030,
but bits lay flat in tightly spaced open channels, in a compact
red rubber/plastic tray, maybe 3 x 4", each 'tray' holding 12 bits.
Like the holster in the end of the Megapro's. Easy in / easy out.


To preserve the rustables, try a lanolin product called Fluid Film.
Spray it on, dry it off. It stays not wet but pliable, doesn't harden.
Sheep wax. Processed out of sheep wool. Nobody gets hurt. Has a
bit of petro in it... the aerosol propellant. Non toxic, non-flammable.
https://www.fluid-film.com/


LATER EDIT: Megapro makes 18 or 19 specialized screwdrivers. All
but four (3 mentioned above) are cylinder grips with what now
seems an irritating hard pebbled surface. My hands can't take it.
The 3-or-4more conventional red/black cushion grip ratchet drivers
are ergo and very comfortable. Recommendable.

2" bit drivers do not have shank magnets. Limited to Megapro's
range of patented bits. Having a magnetic 1" hex bit driver on the
boat is dangerous around a compass. But 1" hex bits are versatile
- complete sets from other makers take little space to store.


**Just ordered Frearson bits from https://www.greenboatstuff.com/
#1, #2, #3 TWO inch hex insert. Concise, not totally informative site.
Littlgull's coamings used a large Robertson square bit in #14. If the
fastener was #14 Frearson, #3 bit is a better fit than common #2.

[ebb]

Decided to erase this post which I'm not allowed to do.